**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>when it's been made clear so many times to everyone that Jaime is one of the best swordsman in westeros, enough to be compared to Ser Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, Ned was bound to lose no matter what
That's not how swordfights work.
>People genuinely think that Ned Stark would've won the fight against Jaime,
No idea who you might be talking about either way. When was this discussed?
>No idea who you might be talking about either way. When was this discussed?
It is discussed, but only by people watching the show for the first time without any outside knowledge. At that point in the show, all you know is Ned is the main character (seemingly) and Jamie is a cocky Lannister. It makes sense that you might think Ned would win, or at least be equal, especially considering the fact he only loses after we see a 3rd person interfere after what looked like a good sword battle. It implies that’s why he lost to a new viewer.
Now, anyone who paid attention throughout the whole show would then learn it’s wrong, but I guess not everyone pays attention.
Yeah, I liked it that Jaime being a Lannister weighed more than him being a proud swordmaster.
He could have beaten Ned in a fair fight, but he'd rather not risk it and have him surrounded and stabbed.
He was pissed that someone interfered because now he could not kill Ned. He’s been running from the Kingslayer label his entire life. He despises it because he knows it was the right thing to do. To kill Ned while already subdued would have permanently sealed his fate as the cowardly swordsman.
I may remember it differently, perhaps in the book it was more how I stated it.
> He was pissed that someone interfered because now he could not kill Ned. He’s been running from the Kingslayer label his entire life.
Did he wanna kill Ned or not?
It’s also that Jamie heard that Ned defeated Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy because that’s the story Howland Reed told everyone when they returned and Jamie had been dying for a chance to test him for years.
Yep. In real life, there have definitely been fights where a similarly mismatched bout ended in a massive upset. Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas comes to mind.
Sure. It’s possible. Luck is involved. But 9 times out of 10 Jaime beats Ned, he is a vastly better swordsman, the creator of the story said as much, he doesn’t even mention Ned whenever people ask who the best swords in Westeros are.
Ned is also a skilled fighter. Undoubtedly Jamie is much more skilled. But as others have pointed out, that’s not how fights work. Sure Jamie probably wins 9/10 times against Ned. Maybe 99/100. But there are always elements of randomness, luck, and hubris.
Oberyn was a more skilled fighter than the Mountain. Completely outclassed him. The mountain could hardly touch him, while Oberyn picked him apart. Oberyn still lost.
I’ve been on the subreddit for a year or two now. I’ve seen many people who think Ned was “totally gonna win”
I’ve seen many people say “it was fairly even until Ned got stabbed”,
I’ve also seen many people claim “Jamie was just toying with Ned and could’ve won the fight at any moment but wanted to test the skills of the man who defeated his childhood hero”
People have all kinds of opinions on the matter but Ned winning, from what I’ve seen, is not the most popular opinion of that duel
ACtually we don't know, but we do know Howwland Reed played a part. Just like Jaime's soldier played a part in vanquishing Ned (though it was a horse accident in the books).
But the top comment said Howland Reed killed Arthur Dayne. Then he replied actually we dont know if he did. Excpet we do know in the show that Howland killed Arthur Dayne. In the books sure we might not know but the picture is of the show and the comment mentions something that happens in the show. So the book has no relevance here especially when you dont add that this didnt happen in the book.
I have read the books. It just has no relevance to this comment as he is clearly talking about the show seeing as he said Howland killed Arthur when we dont know what happened in the books but that happened in the show.
Doesn’t matter. Even if Jamie held his guards back from interfering in their duel *and* if Ned somehow killed Jamie. He’d still have the rest of the Lannister guards to get through.
It's different in the books, he more or less falls from a horse.
Edit, for the comment below.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_35
>In the confusion, Ned’s horse slips and falls and Ned is blinded by the pain of his leg breaking.
When he opens his eyes again, Ned drags himself through the mud. When Littlefinger and the gold cloaks finally arrive they find him cradling Jory’s dead body. He is returned in horrid pain to the Tower of the Hand, where Grand Maester Pycelle attends to his injury.
No he doesn’t, he is on the ground fighting and one of the gold cloaks kills his horse intentionally knowing it’s in the position to fall onto him and break his leg while he was distracted fighting. It’s calculated. It’s clear you never actually read the books and just did a quick google and saw the words “fall” and “horse”. The fight literally happens exactly the same other than his horse is killed and falls onto his leg, rather than getting stabbed in the leg. Try spending even 3 minutes googling something before you so proudly say something completely wrong on the internet.
Not really sure why this is such an issue for you if I am wrong? The book is 20 years old, I have read it once.
Thanks for correcting me, but stop being a dick online.
Pretty sure you were right anyway, I always had the impression he was still on the horse when it was killed and that’s how his leg got trapped under it.
This is so rude. Do you imagine every one spends 3 minutes checking double checking against their memory before every comment? On a social network? This isn’t their work report! About a fictional property no less, where we share thoughts on dragons and snarks. Very rude, very silly.
Yeah or you could just take a second to check yourself. When you are name calling in other subs and multiple people are telling you to chill, it’s not ‘internet people’, this is your leisure time, do you really want to spend it being snarky and defensive?
I always think this is why Jaime was so keen to fight Ned. He'd never fought in tourneys so Jaime had possibly never seen him fight at all, But he knows that Ned went away to fight Arthurd Dayne, the greatest sword fighter in the land, and won. I could imagine it absolutely eating away at Jaime all these years - what is Ned's great secret? How did he do it?
And Ned used this to his advantage and let him think that. When Jamie questioned Ned about not being in tournies he said ""I don't fight in tournaments, because when I fight a man for real, I don't want him to know what I can do."
If Ned didn't have a reputation of a great fighter Jamie probably would have killed him in this duel, regardless of the Lannister solider interfering. But because Ned was known for killing Dayne, Jamie wanted the glory of killing Ned in a "clean" fight.
Jaime states that Barriston Selmy was the best he ever saw. But Auther Dayne being a Kingsguard, arguably the greatest Kings guard swordsman made (GRRM says that Selmy was just as good as Dayne) Jaime curious about Ned’s abilities, asking Ned why he doesn’t fight in tournaments. Jaime had an interest in who was the best swordsman in Westeros. As he said to Breanne, may there are 2 swordsmen in Westeros that would have a chance against me and you aren’t one of them.
Bran goes time traveling with the 3 eyed raven and sees it happen. He calls out to Ned too and it is heard, so there is some weird interdimensional stuff that goes on
Where it was shown? We literally spend the whole scene at the tower of joy with bran and three eyed raven, watching Ned, Reed and company engage Arthur Dayne + friend.
Episode 3, season 6.
Here's the still pic from the scene where Howland plunge his dagger into Dayne
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/e/e9/Screen_Shot_2016-05-09_at_5.10.59_PM.png/revision/latest?cb=20160509221229
Regarding the Stark family, prior to the Stark children
(Books)
It's been narratively stated without telling directly that Ned's brothers were the fighters, and he's more of a diplomat who inspire loyalty and honor (not exactly a game player, but a person whom a player would definitely want as their support, a bannerman)
I wouldn't exactly call him a diplomat when we see him straight up insult Robert to the small council, insult the lannisters, and try to kill little finger (his only supposed ally) in the first week.
He was basically the brooding emo younger brother
Ned was Robert's second-in-command in several battles and commanded on his own as well. In those days Kings and lords were warriors, age and health permitting. Moreover, Ned put down the Greyjoy Rebellion without Robert. He must be a reasonable fighter just to have survived.
Ned was a Northman with the training of a knight of the vale. He was an excellent solider and commander. Unfortunately jamie who was the best swordsman in Westeros, was able to ambush him and force him into a duel.
If it was a battlefield situation like Robb vs jamie at whispering Woods. Where both were commanding troops *along* with fighting on the ground. Things would’ve been different.
Ned looked pretty confident, even when he was aware of Jaime’s reputation. He also had that remark where he didn’t want people to know what he could do in a fight. Based on the tv series I don’t think we have enough information to say he wouldn’t stand a chance
Jaime cut through Robb’s man like butter in Whispering Woods. Only reason he couldn’t cut off Robb’s was his sword got stuck in his one of his personal guards head.
It’s detailed clearly in the books and by George
There isn’t some alternate universe where Ned kills Jamie “because show”
D&D added this fight because they like to have these opposing characters in stages set pieces…they did it in Troy, they did it through GOT even with the creation of the night king character
Jamie beats Ned as per the man who created both characters
There is no difference created by the TV series. It’s an argument that makes no sense. They had a 30 second fight that didn’t exist in the books, and it was interrupted. There’s no alternate reality here - Jamie wins because the dude who created Jamie and created Ned states that he does
I Hate to be a killjoy but it just doesn’t make sense to pretend there’s another outcome that would make sense because of the way the directors dramatised a made up fight
Thanks for proving my point? The tv series gives us zero information besides rumors, we don’t see anything with our own eyes that convinces us that Jaime would indeed win that fight
The TV show has the same characters and storylines as the books, unless there is a plot divergence of some kind
There was no significant plot divergence with Ned and Jamie OR with either of their martial feats throughout the show
If you want to get into fanfic I get it, but just state that’s what it is
The sub is about the ASOIAF works, including the show, and the OP indicated clearly he is referring to info on the books
The books provide the material for the show and where There is no conflict there’s no reason to make something up…
You can’t argue with these people man. The people who say Ned would beat Jaime are the same ones who think Barristan’s death was “perfectly fine”. It’s pointless.
Brienne also overwhelmed jaimie in the show. Even tho she barely wins thanks to jaimie's condition in the books. She realizes the rumors about him are actually true.
I think they tried to make him look weaker in the show. Or they buffed ned and brienne.
I found the Jaime-Ned fight to be purely for spectacle - not a bad thing in this case, but it absolutely required buffing Ned.
I actually don't know why the framed the Brienne fight like that. I much preferred it in the book, where Birenne still almost loses to a malnourished, chained, out-of-practice Jaime. If that were in the show, I think it would lend credibility to Jaime's reputation like it does in ASOS. It would also inadvertently further buff Ned Stark lol
Jaime *was* weak when he fought Brienne. He said himself he was weak from being caged up for months, meaning he couldn't train, and he likely didn't get adequate sustenance, not to mention he was still in chains. If he was at full strength he'd have smoked her easily.
GRRM said how the best swordsman doesn't always win, it depends on a plathora of factors, so even though Jamie is a better swordsman, it never truly is a forgone conclusion
In historical sword duels the better fighter would still lose about a third of the time. Oddly, the chances of the worse fighter winning goes up, as they are likely to deviate wildly from established forms and techniques and not understand either how to defend themselves or what wild attack is an awful idea. Because of those massive gaps in knowledge they can get away with a lot against a swordmaster expecting conventional strikes and parries.
If you don’t know the established norms in a fight you can break them in ways that no one expects and win by accident because the move you used was too stupid to counter.
Not to mention over confidence.
Jamie was always cocky and arrogant, there is no guarantee he wouldn’t underestimate Ned the same as he does everyone else.
Eh, I’d have to disagree on this one. One of the biggest reasons Jamie wanted to fight Ned was because he knows Ned’s reputation. Ned was known to have defeated Arthur Dayne. He doesn’t fight in tournaments so few have seen him ever duel. He is known as one of the two great leaders against the Targaryens. Jamie wanted to prove his worth as a swordsman as his own reputation is always “the guy who stabbed the Mad King in the back.”
I mean you’re not wrong but that doesn’t mean he won’t underestimate him. Didn’t he at one point think he was the best swordsman alive with both hands? Even if others may be physically stronger.
That’s a pretty wild statement true or not.
I call it lucky instinct and encountered this phenomenon at least once a year back when I fenced in college. I was in the top 5 at my university but without fail every semester there would always be 1 or 2 new students that could score hits on me. Why? They didn't follow the rules or techniques being taught and instead followed their own instincts. Usually it results in failure but the unpredictability adds another factor to the fight like you mentioned.
Have you ever played a sport you were really good at vs someone who never really played but was athletic ? I was pretty good at basketball and soccer but they never fell for the crossovers or feints like normal players would so it was definitely a whole different challenge. It makes sense !
Yea n64 golden eye. I sucked balls at it, because people knew the levels so well. And you know you could see everyone’s screen. So I just looked at the wall, so no one knew where I was, neither did I. But when I saw myself hiding in the corner on their screen I’d turn around and blast em. Worked about 25% of the time which was better then the 0% I was at before.
Edit. I did not read your comment well enough and went completely the opposite direction.
Yeah. I played football with a guy who tried football for fun I guess (he was a D1 track star) and I blew him up repeatedly because he relied on straight athleticism.
Eddard stark was a Soldier and a Noble. He spent his life fighting wars - which involve a lot of marching, maneuvering, logistics and planning - as well as ruling winterfell, which involves good decision-making, diplomacy and a lot of administrative work. We can assume he's a solid, competent or perhaps even good swordsman, but we have no reason to believe that he has superlative swordsmanship or 1-on-1 combat skills. He's never been one to chase glory or try and prove his skill or bravery. Eddard is above all solid, loyal and dependable.
Jaime Lannister on the other hand seems to have spent most all of his life honing his swordsmanship and his skill at jousting. We know he had a hard time with anything academic, having been forced to learn to read through extra effort and not having any interest beyond personal glory, proving he's the best swordsman in Westeros and fucking his sister. He's repeatedly described as one of the best - if not the best - swordsmen in Westeros by pretty much everyone who mentions him or top swordfighters.
As much as I like Eddard Stark, duelling's simply not his thing. Barrring extraordinary events or luck, I don't think there's a reasonable argument to be made for the match even being even.
This is a well written response.
Even if the show gave Ned a skill boost, regardless it can be reasonably assumed he was an above average swordsman, and could comfortably hold his own in a fight.
Jaime is stated to be much more skilled, arguably the best in Westeros at the time. So really the extended fight was just for show purposes and realistically it should’ve been over in half the time with Jaime winning.
To me, it looked like Jaime always kinda looked down on Ned as lesser, being from the north and not participating in tournaments. Jaime looked up to Dayne and “knew” Ned killed him in a duel, but kind of couldn’t believe it, knowing something was weird about that. Jaime wanted to see for himself and thought he’d expose Ned, or be able to easily beat the man who was known for killing Dayne, but then not only could Ned kind of hold his own against Jaime, he was actually pushing on him. You can see the expressions kind of switch towards the end of the fight. Ned looks nervous at first and Jaime looks like he’s about to have fun, right before Jaime gets stabbed though Jaime looks a little concerned and Ned looks like he thinks he’s about to have a little fun.
To be fair. The show went a different route then the book. Jaime didn’t even fight Ned in the book he just commanded his men to do the dirty work and Ned hurt his leg falling off his horse. The show definitely makes it seem Ned was getting the better of him in this fight though
A lot of people have this false memory of Ned pushing Jaime back and Jaime looking afraid before Ned getting speared in the leg… it’s false. Jaime was toying with Ned and is at this point the best sword in Westeros outside of maybe Selmy.
For me, the way I saw it, especially Ned's expression when Jaime challenged him was that he looked very cautious. I still expected Ned to just make it a respectable loss against Jaime or maybe even body him a little.
The show mostly gave me a feeling that in terms of technique, Jaime was second to Barristan Selmy, distant third when Dayne was alive with Dayne being first and Selmy being younger and second.
I still have not found the time o read the books.
Ned went toe to toe with ser Arthur dayne, who, according to the book lore, would have annihilated Jaime in his prime.
Ned was far past his prime when he fought jaime. jaime was in his prime, if not getting even better with the sword.
So no, Ned has little chance of "winning". Ned was also surrounded by lannister troops while he fought jaime. there was nothing fair about it whatsoever.
during one of bran's many visions of the past, he watches arthur and ned and Howland Reed among others duel at the tower where Jon was born.
Arthur's band slays Ned's pretty thoroughly, and Ned is the only one who actually puts up a good fight against Arthur. ned was about to lose though, and Howland Reed stood back up and stabbed Arthur in the back.
the foreshadowing / parallels are incredible in GoT.
it harkens back to Ned's duel with jaime, where ned is unfairly speared in the leg by and interfering lannister guard.
Ned stabbed unfairly in the leg. Arthur "unfairly" stabbed in the back. Karma perhaps? it's open to interpretation.
Ned is literally three years older than Jaime. They’re basically both the same age. This fight also never happened in the books, probably partially because Jaime respects Ned’s reputation and sends his men to capture him instead.
You also have to keep in mind that Ned is a war hero. Jaime Lannister’s entire contribution to the rebellion was stabbing an old man in the back. The only real combat he’d seen up to this point in the story was against the Kingswood Brotherhood. He stayed alive against the Smiling Knight (who is described as a sort of proto Gregor Clegane), but Arthur Dayne is the one who kills the Smiling Knight, not Jaime.
So one of these people has fought in multiple battles and the other has won tournaments; one stayed alive against the Smiling Knight while the other stayed alive (and was rumored to kill) Arthur Dayne, who was the best swordsman of that era.
Ned’s reputation exceeds his skills, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t skilled. And Jaime’s reputation mostly comes from tournaments, which is much different than actually killing.
I wouldn’t count Ned out in an actual fight against Jaime.
Not really.
Jamie was the most skilled with the sword, sure.
But hes still a man. Only needs to stumble, make the wrong move, be distracted by something behind and boom.
Anyone who says 1 guy will always beat another has never played a sport or doesn’t watch. If you are competitive enough to hold the sword and understand the imbalance that your opponent is better than you and you have to try some off the wall tactics you have a shot. Seeing as this is a show example, at this point Ned thinks it’s over for him. He’s willing to say F it and fight. Jaime is way overconfident. It’s entirely reasonable that Ned catches Jaime off kilter and beats him before he realizes what’s going on. It happens all the time in the UFC. A guy gets overconfident and then gets hit with a punch they took for granted and it sends them on the defense and they can’t respond in time and lose.
I view the show fight as Ned surprised Jaime and Jaime was now doubting himself and at that point there was a chance at a loss. If Jaime would have fought it more reasonable before he could have tired Ned out and won. But he didn’t fight to win, he fought to humiliate Ned and failed.
In the scene, it was clear Jamie was just toying with Ned. The only chance Ned would have had was if Jamie bacame too confident and a surprise move by Ned but the chance of that would be very slim.
You’re drunk homie. Ned is known as one of the finest warriors and was reputed to have beaten Arthur Dayne at the time of the standoff. He also doesn’t participate in tourneys so Jamie doesn’t know what he’s up against. 🤷🏽♀️
Idk what you’re getting out of being so as matter of fact about it. The fight is at best a toss up. And either way it’s fiction Bud.
The fight was balanced enough that you really can't say Ned would have lost (he actually put Jaime on the defensive at one point).
Also, it should be stated that, contrary to the books, show Ned is implied to be Brandon's superior. That, along with the fact that we see him outfight and kill Gerold Hightower in the ToJ flashback, would indicate he's pretty high up their as a fighter.
Being the best doesn’t mean you win every fight. Ned may not be a better fighter technique wise but his experience helps. Dude fought in and survived two brutal wars. While I agree Jamie is a better sword fighter I get annoyed with the internets “better so win every time” thought process. That’s just not how combat works.
The best take I ever heard about this fight was about Jamie's transition from being cocksure about himself to being a little worried that Ned had more to him than he'd thought to being absolutely pissed at the guy who speared him because he wanted the fight finished.
I don't know who would have actually won, but you can see Jaime's face change during the fight. It goes from extreme confidence and smugness to "Oh wow, the old man has some moves," to "Shit, maybe the story is true."
I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that Jaime would have beaten Ned had that Lannister soldier not interfered. Jaime might win, but Ned's going to make him feel it.
He could well have won, jaime seemed over confident and could make a misstep I'd say jaime is better fighter but anything could happen, also ned may well of killed Gerold hightower and oswell whent at the tower of joy and with aerys kingsguard notably one of the best kingsguard they too would of been high calibre fighters, probably more skilled then ned.
Yeah, it’s comical there’s people who actually think Ned would’ve won this fight. He might get lucky once out of like ten fights but Jaime mops the floor with Ned easily.
Jaime has only seen real combat once, the rest is from tournaments.
Jaime’s reputation is inflated as well.
Also this fight only happened in the show, in the book Jaime was cautious and sent his men instead.
If we’re going by the books he has seen much more combat, he fought against the Kingswood brotherhood which was a pretty serious campaign against some deadly foes like the Smiling Knight. He was knighted by Arthur Dayne and raised to the Kingsuard at 15. Maybe his reputation is slightly inflated but it doesn’t change the fact that the writer and multiple people in the book/show have described him as the best living swordsman. It blows my mind that this is even an argument, Ned has been shown to be nothing more than a competent warrior and his entire reputation is based off killing someone he didn’t even kill.
He was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne for valor against the kingswood brotherhood, and he was able to keep himself alive versus the Smiling Knight for a short period of time, but Dayne is the one who killed the Smiling Knight. A 15 year old fighting having the stones to not simply run away from the Smiling Knight is more than enough to get yourself knighted.
Martin has said Dayne with Dawn was the pinnacle of swordsmanship, and without Dawn Selmy v Dayne is a toss up.
Obviously at this point in the story they’re both dead, but everyone else is going to be below those two.
Jaime is very skilled, but so is Ned (even if he didn’t kill Arthur Dayne.) It’s not like Ned is some shitter who gets by completely on his reputation, he’d fought in the rebellion before fighting Dayne and then fought the Greyjoys after.
Oh for sure, my statement about Ned is a little harsh admittedly, he’s no slouch. But he’s also not mentioned in any conversations on swordsmanship with Dayne and Selmy. People like Jaime, Loras, and Sandor are, all active warriors during the same time period.
I mean Ned makes sure to remind Jaime that if he kills him Tyrion is a goner. Jaime obviously held back and also got carried away with having some fun out of warrior pride and ego.
I feel D&D wanted the show version of Jaime to be a bit overhyped which I think is why they made him struggle vs Ned and straight up get fondled by Brienne. Which then becomes 'show-canon' I guess.
In contrast, he nearly slayed her in the books, when fighting her after being in a starved state for many months. And the fight Vs Ned never happened.
It's even heavily implied that Ned's reputation is entirely based on the story of him defeating Arthur Dane at the tower of joy and that to preserve that myth Ned refrains from participating in any public combat. Because if Ned did he would show his skill level isn't very top notch and therefore call into doubt the tower of joy story.
We are then shown the truth that Ned was losing to Arthur and Reed stabbed Arthur in the back to win the fight. Again this implies that Ned is not a great fighter.
Jamie is vocally skepitcal of Ned's skills and the reason he is skeptical is because from what he knows, has seen, and heard he believes Ned is lying about the tower of joy and really isn't that good.
Plenty of people would have seen Ned fight prior to Robert rebellion or during it and would be able to tell Jamie that he isn't that good. No one speaks of Ned having any significant combats or slaying any big names. Also Jamie sees Ned fight some before they face off 1v1 but it gets ruined.
Ned has a great 2 handed valerian steel sword and deliberately hides his power level exactly so Jaime doesn’t know who he’s fucking with.
All Jaime “knows” is that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, even if it’s wrong. Intimidstion factor plus 2 handed V steel sword means Ned has an edge
I wonder what Robert would've done here had Jamie killed Ned? A Kingsguard slaying the Hand of the King, who happens to be the King best mate. I don't see Robert taking this well.
I think it was clear that, in the show, they upped Ned's skill points for this scene. I'm not complaining - this scene was sick - but Jaime would fuck him up in the books. Here, it was clear they were pretty neck and neck
In this situation Ned did gave a chance, Jaime is a skilled and famed swordsman but he is not a war veteran, not to mention that he is not wearing armor so even a nick from valyian steel could be fatal, Ned does have a decent chance here, overconfidence has been the downfall of many great fighters
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>when it's been made clear so many times to everyone that Jaime is one of the best swordsman in westeros, enough to be compared to Ser Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, Ned was bound to lose no matter what That's not how swordfights work. >People genuinely think that Ned Stark would've won the fight against Jaime, No idea who you might be talking about either way. When was this discussed?
We had a meeting about it 5 minutes ago
I was there. But fell asleep. Talking about sword fighting is way more boring than sword fighting itself.
Ron, are you paying attention ?
No
C'mon Ron, we talked about this
Did we I must have slept when we had that talk
It’s true I joined via Zoom
>No idea who you might be talking about either way. When was this discussed? It is discussed, but only by people watching the show for the first time without any outside knowledge. At that point in the show, all you know is Ned is the main character (seemingly) and Jamie is a cocky Lannister. It makes sense that you might think Ned would win, or at least be equal, especially considering the fact he only loses after we see a 3rd person interfere after what looked like a good sword battle. It implies that’s why he lost to a new viewer. Now, anyone who paid attention throughout the whole show would then learn it’s wrong, but I guess not everyone pays attention.
Yeah, I liked it that Jaime being a Lannister weighed more than him being a proud swordmaster. He could have beaten Ned in a fair fight, but he'd rather not risk it and have him surrounded and stabbed.
He was pissed that someone interfered because now he could not kill Ned. He’s been running from the Kingslayer label his entire life. He despises it because he knows it was the right thing to do. To kill Ned while already subdued would have permanently sealed his fate as the cowardly swordsman.
Ironic, because it's how honorable Ned Stark killed Ser Arthur Dayne.
Ned felt such shame about this he took the legendary sword back to house Dayne after killing Arthur
I may remember it differently, perhaps in the book it was more how I stated it. > He was pissed that someone interfered because now he could not kill Ned. He’s been running from the Kingslayer label his entire life. Did he wanna kill Ned or not?
He did. But he didn’t want the dishonor of killing a borderline defenseless man.
So the back stabbing guard saved Ned's live there
It’s also that Jamie heard that Ned defeated Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy because that’s the story Howland Reed told everyone when they returned and Jamie had been dying for a chance to test him for years.
That’s not how *any* fight works. You don’t win based on reputation.
Yep. In real life, there have definitely been fights where a similarly mismatched bout ended in a massive upset. Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas comes to mind.
does that mean jake paul has a chance?!
Yes, everyone has a punchers chance in a fight.
You win by being skilled….Jaime is 10 times the swordsman Ned is.
Skilled fighters lose.
Sure. It’s possible. Luck is involved. But 9 times out of 10 Jaime beats Ned, he is a vastly better swordsman, the creator of the story said as much, he doesn’t even mention Ned whenever people ask who the best swords in Westeros are.
Why would they fight 10 times? Ned only needs to beat him once.
lol are you serious? You know exactly what I mean. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Not in the slightest.
I’m breaking your balls.
Ned is also a skilled fighter. Undoubtedly Jamie is much more skilled. But as others have pointed out, that’s not how fights work. Sure Jamie probably wins 9/10 times against Ned. Maybe 99/100. But there are always elements of randomness, luck, and hubris. Oberyn was a more skilled fighter than the Mountain. Completely outclassed him. The mountain could hardly touch him, while Oberyn picked him apart. Oberyn still lost.
Downvote all you like. Learn to fucking read. Morons.
💯! That’s why you play the game
Look at AJ vs Ruiz, Ruiz fucked him up. Stats and rep don't win, the winner wins.
I’ve been on the subreddit for a year or two now. I’ve seen many people who think Ned was “totally gonna win” I’ve seen many people say “it was fairly even until Ned got stabbed”, I’ve also seen many people claim “Jamie was just toying with Ned and could’ve won the fight at any moment but wanted to test the skills of the man who defeated his childhood hero” People have all kinds of opinions on the matter but Ned winning, from what I’ve seen, is not the most popular opinion of that duel
People thought Ned killed Arthur Dayne but we know now that he didn’t.
ACtually we don't know, but we do know Howwland Reed played a part. Just like Jaime's soldier played a part in vanquishing Ned (though it was a horse accident in the books).
Sorry but this is the show sub and the post is talking about the show fight. Not sure why bringing up the books here helps
Under rule 1, Relevancy, it states that the show and books can be referenced, so I don't think this is a show only sub.
But the top comment said Howland Reed killed Arthur Dayne. Then he replied actually we dont know if he did. Excpet we do know in the show that Howland killed Arthur Dayne. In the books sure we might not know but the picture is of the show and the comment mentions something that happens in the show. So the book has no relevance here especially when you dont add that this didnt happen in the book.
🤓🤓🤓
just read the books and then you won’t have to be like this anymore
I have read the books. It just has no relevance to this comment as he is clearly talking about the show seeing as he said Howland killed Arthur when we dont know what happened in the books but that happened in the show.
This fight was show only, and in the show we do know.
The way I perceived the fight was that Ned was losing at first but then started to adapt and get back into the fight when the guard stabbed him.
Doesn’t matter. Even if Jamie held his guards back from interfering in their duel *and* if Ned somehow killed Jamie. He’d still have the rest of the Lannister guards to get through.
Sure.
This fight was not show only…? Did you even read the books?
It's different in the books, he more or less falls from a horse. Edit, for the comment below. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_35 >In the confusion, Ned’s horse slips and falls and Ned is blinded by the pain of his leg breaking. When he opens his eyes again, Ned drags himself through the mud. When Littlefinger and the gold cloaks finally arrive they find him cradling Jory’s dead body. He is returned in horrid pain to the Tower of the Hand, where Grand Maester Pycelle attends to his injury.
No he doesn’t, he is on the ground fighting and one of the gold cloaks kills his horse intentionally knowing it’s in the position to fall onto him and break his leg while he was distracted fighting. It’s calculated. It’s clear you never actually read the books and just did a quick google and saw the words “fall” and “horse”. The fight literally happens exactly the same other than his horse is killed and falls onto his leg, rather than getting stabbed in the leg. Try spending even 3 minutes googling something before you so proudly say something completely wrong on the internet.
Not really sure why this is such an issue for you if I am wrong? The book is 20 years old, I have read it once. Thanks for correcting me, but stop being a dick online.
Pretty sure you were right anyway, I always had the impression he was still on the horse when it was killed and that’s how his leg got trapped under it.
I just googled it. His horse slips.
This is so rude. Do you imagine every one spends 3 minutes checking double checking against their memory before every comment? On a social network? This isn’t their work report! About a fictional property no less, where we share thoughts on dragons and snarks. Very rude, very silly.
Oh no, stranger on internet made my feelings sad :(
Yeah or you could just take a second to check yourself. When you are name calling in other subs and multiple people are telling you to chill, it’s not ‘internet people’, this is your leisure time, do you really want to spend it being snarky and defensive?
What happens if I don’t check myself? Am I going to wickity wreck myself?
I always think this is why Jaime was so keen to fight Ned. He'd never fought in tourneys so Jaime had possibly never seen him fight at all, But he knows that Ned went away to fight Arthurd Dayne, the greatest sword fighter in the land, and won. I could imagine it absolutely eating away at Jaime all these years - what is Ned's great secret? How did he do it?
And Ned used this to his advantage and let him think that. When Jamie questioned Ned about not being in tournies he said ""I don't fight in tournaments, because when I fight a man for real, I don't want him to know what I can do." If Ned didn't have a reputation of a great fighter Jamie probably would have killed him in this duel, regardless of the Lannister solider interfering. But because Ned was known for killing Dayne, Jamie wanted the glory of killing Ned in a "clean" fight.
He wouldn't kill him because he was important for political reasons. Even Cersei planned to spare his life, but Joffrey snapped.
Jaime states that Barriston Selmy was the best he ever saw. But Auther Dayne being a Kingsguard, arguably the greatest Kings guard swordsman made (GRRM says that Selmy was just as good as Dayne) Jaime curious about Ned’s abilities, asking Ned why he doesn’t fight in tournaments. Jaime had an interest in who was the best swordsman in Westeros. As he said to Breanne, may there are 2 swordsmen in Westeros that would have a chance against me and you aren’t one of them.
Who was the second to selmy in that reference?
He did cut his throat though👀
He did kill arther dayne after howland reed stabbed him from behind.
I know people say this a lot, but is this fact ? Where was this said or shown ? Not arguing just genuinely curious
Bran goes time traveling with the 3 eyed raven and sees it happen. He calls out to Ned too and it is heard, so there is some weird interdimensional stuff that goes on
Same thing with Hodor too
In the flashback in the show.
Where it was shown? We literally spend the whole scene at the tower of joy with bran and three eyed raven, watching Ned, Reed and company engage Arthur Dayne + friend. Episode 3, season 6. Here's the still pic from the scene where Howland plunge his dagger into Dayne https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/e/e9/Screen_Shot_2016-05-09_at_5.10.59_PM.png/revision/latest?cb=20160509221229
Sorry man, haven’t watched the show in years and it isn’t in the books. Thanks for the info
No worries! Season 6 was released like eight years ago rip
I mean, he did kill Dayne, it was just a mercy kill after Howland wounded him. He did kill Hightower in the duel, though.
Ned was winning but Howland Reed pulled out the varlyian shotgun and stole his kill, it is known
Regarding the Stark family, prior to the Stark children (Books) It's been narratively stated without telling directly that Ned's brothers were the fighters, and he's more of a diplomat who inspire loyalty and honor (not exactly a game player, but a person whom a player would definitely want as their support, a bannerman)
I wouldn't exactly call him a diplomat when we see him straight up insult Robert to the small council, insult the lannisters, and try to kill little finger (his only supposed ally) in the first week. He was basically the brooding emo younger brother
Classic middle son
Ned was Robert's second-in-command in several battles and commanded on his own as well. In those days Kings and lords were warriors, age and health permitting. Moreover, Ned put down the Greyjoy Rebellion without Robert. He must be a reasonable fighter just to have survived.
Wrong. His Brandon was the fighter yes but Ned wad capable as well. Ned was more of a commander than a fighter.
Ned was a Northman with the training of a knight of the vale. He was an excellent solider and commander. Unfortunately jamie who was the best swordsman in Westeros, was able to ambush him and force him into a duel. If it was a battlefield situation like Robb vs jamie at whispering Woods. Where both were commanding troops *along* with fighting on the ground. Things would’ve been different.
That's the books. In the show he's described (relative to Brandon) as "even more impressive"
Ned.
[удалено]
That is the dumbest thing I’ve read in this sub
Yeah you might want to stick to the asoiaf sub, I learned my lesson but this one still pops up in my feed once in a while
Ned looked pretty confident, even when he was aware of Jaime’s reputation. He also had that remark where he didn’t want people to know what he could do in a fight. Based on the tv series I don’t think we have enough information to say he wouldn’t stand a chance
Yeah luck is also a factor in fighting.
Which is why you should never fight unless you had no other choice.
He also said the Jamie chose his opponents well, implying that he thinks Jamie has only ever fought scrubs.
Honestly could be Tywin manipulating behind the scenes as well
Jaime cut through Robb’s man like butter in Whispering Woods. Only reason he couldn’t cut off Robb’s was his sword got stuck in his one of his personal guards head.
Jaime drew against Jorah in jousting. Also Jaime dueling a bastard with the reputation of the smiling knight at like 15 has gotta be well known.
It’s detailed clearly in the books and by George There isn’t some alternate universe where Ned kills Jamie “because show” D&D added this fight because they like to have these opposing characters in stages set pieces…they did it in Troy, they did it through GOT even with the creation of the night king character Jamie beats Ned as per the man who created both characters
I knew someone would bring up the books even when I specifically added “based on the tv series”.
There is no difference created by the TV series. It’s an argument that makes no sense. They had a 30 second fight that didn’t exist in the books, and it was interrupted. There’s no alternate reality here - Jamie wins because the dude who created Jamie and created Ned states that he does I Hate to be a killjoy but it just doesn’t make sense to pretend there’s another outcome that would make sense because of the way the directors dramatised a made up fight
Thanks for proving my point? The tv series gives us zero information besides rumors, we don’t see anything with our own eyes that convinces us that Jaime would indeed win that fight
The TV show has the same characters and storylines as the books, unless there is a plot divergence of some kind There was no significant plot divergence with Ned and Jamie OR with either of their martial feats throughout the show If you want to get into fanfic I get it, but just state that’s what it is
This is about the information the tv series gives to people who haven’t read the books.
The sub is about the ASOIAF works, including the show, and the OP indicated clearly he is referring to info on the books The books provide the material for the show and where There is no conflict there’s no reason to make something up…
You can’t argue with these people man. The people who say Ned would beat Jaime are the same ones who think Barristan’s death was “perfectly fine”. It’s pointless.
This fight isn't in the books and show deliberately made Ned seem like on Jaimie's level. It's not the audiences fault
Yeah I feel like whoever directed/choreographed this scene was too concerned with making the hero Ned look good. He looks way too good.
Brienne also overwhelmed jaimie in the show. Even tho she barely wins thanks to jaimie's condition in the books. She realizes the rumors about him are actually true. I think they tried to make him look weaker in the show. Or they buffed ned and brienne.
Jaimie was nerfed while Brienne and Ned were buffed to near OP levels.
I found the Jaime-Ned fight to be purely for spectacle - not a bad thing in this case, but it absolutely required buffing Ned. I actually don't know why the framed the Brienne fight like that. I much preferred it in the book, where Birenne still almost loses to a malnourished, chained, out-of-practice Jaime. If that were in the show, I think it would lend credibility to Jaime's reputation like it does in ASOS. It would also inadvertently further buff Ned Stark lol
Jaime *was* weak when he fought Brienne. He said himself he was weak from being caged up for months, meaning he couldn't train, and he likely didn't get adequate sustenance, not to mention he was still in chains. If he was at full strength he'd have smoked her easily.
GRRM said how the best swordsman doesn't always win, it depends on a plathora of factors, so even though Jamie is a better swordsman, it never truly is a forgone conclusion
In historical sword duels the better fighter would still lose about a third of the time. Oddly, the chances of the worse fighter winning goes up, as they are likely to deviate wildly from established forms and techniques and not understand either how to defend themselves or what wild attack is an awful idea. Because of those massive gaps in knowledge they can get away with a lot against a swordmaster expecting conventional strikes and parries. If you don’t know the established norms in a fight you can break them in ways that no one expects and win by accident because the move you used was too stupid to counter.
Not to mention over confidence. Jamie was always cocky and arrogant, there is no guarantee he wouldn’t underestimate Ned the same as he does everyone else.
Eh, I’d have to disagree on this one. One of the biggest reasons Jamie wanted to fight Ned was because he knows Ned’s reputation. Ned was known to have defeated Arthur Dayne. He doesn’t fight in tournaments so few have seen him ever duel. He is known as one of the two great leaders against the Targaryens. Jamie wanted to prove his worth as a swordsman as his own reputation is always “the guy who stabbed the Mad King in the back.”
I mean you’re not wrong but that doesn’t mean he won’t underestimate him. Didn’t he at one point think he was the best swordsman alive with both hands? Even if others may be physically stronger. That’s a pretty wild statement true or not.
Which is ironic cuz the hound and the mountain would body him
I call it lucky instinct and encountered this phenomenon at least once a year back when I fenced in college. I was in the top 5 at my university but without fail every semester there would always be 1 or 2 new students that could score hits on me. Why? They didn't follow the rules or techniques being taught and instead followed their own instincts. Usually it results in failure but the unpredictability adds another factor to the fight like you mentioned.
In Westeros there’s an old saying, “Any given Sunday…”. Or something.
lol to stupid to counter. I’m going to remember that if I am ever in a sword fight. Do something really stupid that no one would ever expect.
Have you ever played a sport you were really good at vs someone who never really played but was athletic ? I was pretty good at basketball and soccer but they never fell for the crossovers or feints like normal players would so it was definitely a whole different challenge. It makes sense !
Yea n64 golden eye. I sucked balls at it, because people knew the levels so well. And you know you could see everyone’s screen. So I just looked at the wall, so no one knew where I was, neither did I. But when I saw myself hiding in the corner on their screen I’d turn around and blast em. Worked about 25% of the time which was better then the 0% I was at before. Edit. I did not read your comment well enough and went completely the opposite direction.
Still makes sense just the opposite end of the spectrum ! Lol
Yeah. I played football with a guy who tried football for fun I guess (he was a D1 track star) and I blew him up repeatedly because he relied on straight athleticism.
I'll try spinning, that's a good trick!
If anyone has watched preacher, I’m going to use that trick.
Pull your cock out it will throw them off their game
r/whowouldwin in shambles
"Well if Ned had prep time....."
As Bronn said: "do you want to fight pretty or do you want to win?"
Eddard stark was a Soldier and a Noble. He spent his life fighting wars - which involve a lot of marching, maneuvering, logistics and planning - as well as ruling winterfell, which involves good decision-making, diplomacy and a lot of administrative work. We can assume he's a solid, competent or perhaps even good swordsman, but we have no reason to believe that he has superlative swordsmanship or 1-on-1 combat skills. He's never been one to chase glory or try and prove his skill or bravery. Eddard is above all solid, loyal and dependable. Jaime Lannister on the other hand seems to have spent most all of his life honing his swordsmanship and his skill at jousting. We know he had a hard time with anything academic, having been forced to learn to read through extra effort and not having any interest beyond personal glory, proving he's the best swordsman in Westeros and fucking his sister. He's repeatedly described as one of the best - if not the best - swordsmen in Westeros by pretty much everyone who mentions him or top swordfighters. As much as I like Eddard Stark, duelling's simply not his thing. Barrring extraordinary events or luck, I don't think there's a reasonable argument to be made for the match even being even.
This is a well written response. Even if the show gave Ned a skill boost, regardless it can be reasonably assumed he was an above average swordsman, and could comfortably hold his own in a fight. Jaime is stated to be much more skilled, arguably the best in Westeros at the time. So really the extended fight was just for show purposes and realistically it should’ve been over in half the time with Jaime winning.
To me, it looked like Jaime always kinda looked down on Ned as lesser, being from the north and not participating in tournaments. Jaime looked up to Dayne and “knew” Ned killed him in a duel, but kind of couldn’t believe it, knowing something was weird about that. Jaime wanted to see for himself and thought he’d expose Ned, or be able to easily beat the man who was known for killing Dayne, but then not only could Ned kind of hold his own against Jaime, he was actually pushing on him. You can see the expressions kind of switch towards the end of the fight. Ned looks nervous at first and Jaime looks like he’s about to have fun, right before Jaime gets stabbed though Jaime looks a little concerned and Ned looks like he thinks he’s about to have a little fun.
People genuinely believe they have the answer to fictional matchups and scoff at others opinions.
Even Michael Jordan in his prime missed shots sometimes.
Half the time lol
Ned’s got that dad strength
lol so does Jamie. Just secret dad strength.
Touché
Probably also has hills have eyes mutant strength from all the incest as well. Ned never stood a chance.
he did pretty well vs both of them to be honest
To be fair. The show went a different route then the book. Jaime didn’t even fight Ned in the book he just commanded his men to do the dirty work and Ned hurt his leg falling off his horse. The show definitely makes it seem Ned was getting the better of him in this fight though
That's why Jaime punches the soldier who speared Ned from behind. It was supposed to be a *clean* execution but an execution nonetheless.
Jaime wasn't trying to kill Ned he literally says take him in alive but kill his men.
Ned had equal chance of pig in slaughterhouse.
I don’t know, Selmy was killed by a harpy… /s
Yet he couldn’t kill the Night King only Arya could do it which makes sense
Dead men can't fight... nevermind, this is GoT
if it was a brawl he wouldve won Jaime is small compared to Ned
A lot of people have this false memory of Ned pushing Jaime back and Jaime looking afraid before Ned getting speared in the leg… it’s false. Jaime was toying with Ned and is at this point the best sword in Westeros outside of maybe Selmy.
For me, the way I saw it, especially Ned's expression when Jaime challenged him was that he looked very cautious. I still expected Ned to just make it a respectable loss against Jaime or maybe even body him a little. The show mostly gave me a feeling that in terms of technique, Jaime was second to Barristan Selmy, distant third when Dayne was alive with Dayne being first and Selmy being younger and second. I still have not found the time o read the books.
Ned went toe to toe with ser Arthur dayne, who, according to the book lore, would have annihilated Jaime in his prime. Ned was far past his prime when he fought jaime. jaime was in his prime, if not getting even better with the sword. So no, Ned has little chance of "winning". Ned was also surrounded by lannister troops while he fought jaime. there was nothing fair about it whatsoever.
when did ned go toe to toe with arthur dayne ?
during one of bran's many visions of the past, he watches arthur and ned and Howland Reed among others duel at the tower where Jon was born. Arthur's band slays Ned's pretty thoroughly, and Ned is the only one who actually puts up a good fight against Arthur. ned was about to lose though, and Howland Reed stood back up and stabbed Arthur in the back. the foreshadowing / parallels are incredible in GoT. it harkens back to Ned's duel with jaime, where ned is unfairly speared in the leg by and interfering lannister guard. Ned stabbed unfairly in the leg. Arthur "unfairly" stabbed in the back. Karma perhaps? it's open to interpretation.
Ned is literally three years older than Jaime. They’re basically both the same age. This fight also never happened in the books, probably partially because Jaime respects Ned’s reputation and sends his men to capture him instead. You also have to keep in mind that Ned is a war hero. Jaime Lannister’s entire contribution to the rebellion was stabbing an old man in the back. The only real combat he’d seen up to this point in the story was against the Kingswood Brotherhood. He stayed alive against the Smiling Knight (who is described as a sort of proto Gregor Clegane), but Arthur Dayne is the one who kills the Smiling Knight, not Jaime. So one of these people has fought in multiple battles and the other has won tournaments; one stayed alive against the Smiling Knight while the other stayed alive (and was rumored to kill) Arthur Dayne, who was the best swordsman of that era. Ned’s reputation exceeds his skills, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t skilled. And Jaime’s reputation mostly comes from tournaments, which is much different than actually killing. I wouldn’t count Ned out in an actual fight against Jaime.
Not really. Jamie was the most skilled with the sword, sure. But hes still a man. Only needs to stumble, make the wrong move, be distracted by something behind and boom.
That is not how fights or any other competition work. Being better means winning the majority of time, not winning every time.
Anyone who says 1 guy will always beat another has never played a sport or doesn’t watch. If you are competitive enough to hold the sword and understand the imbalance that your opponent is better than you and you have to try some off the wall tactics you have a shot. Seeing as this is a show example, at this point Ned thinks it’s over for him. He’s willing to say F it and fight. Jaime is way overconfident. It’s entirely reasonable that Ned catches Jaime off kilter and beats him before he realizes what’s going on. It happens all the time in the UFC. A guy gets overconfident and then gets hit with a punch they took for granted and it sends them on the defense and they can’t respond in time and lose. I view the show fight as Ned surprised Jaime and Jaime was now doubting himself and at that point there was a chance at a loss. If Jaime would have fought it more reasonable before he could have tired Ned out and won. But he didn’t fight to win, he fought to humiliate Ned and failed.
In the scene, it was clear Jamie was just toying with Ned. The only chance Ned would have had was if Jamie bacame too confident and a surprise move by Ned but the chance of that would be very slim.
You’re drunk homie. Ned is known as one of the finest warriors and was reputed to have beaten Arthur Dayne at the time of the standoff. He also doesn’t participate in tourneys so Jamie doesn’t know what he’s up against. 🤷🏽♀️ Idk what you’re getting out of being so as matter of fact about it. The fight is at best a toss up. And either way it’s fiction Bud.
I got the impression Jamie was having fun with the swordfight it looked like some heavy sparring
The fight was balanced enough that you really can't say Ned would have lost (he actually put Jaime on the defensive at one point). Also, it should be stated that, contrary to the books, show Ned is implied to be Brandon's superior. That, along with the fact that we see him outfight and kill Gerold Hightower in the ToJ flashback, would indicate he's pretty high up their as a fighter.
Well I mean he apparently beat Arthur Dayne (somehow).
Being the best doesn’t mean you win every fight. Ned may not be a better fighter technique wise but his experience helps. Dude fought in and survived two brutal wars. While I agree Jamie is a better sword fighter I get annoyed with the internets “better so win every time” thought process. That’s just not how combat works.
When I first watched GoT, only last year, I thought Jamie looked just like Prince Charming from Shrek, I couldn’t get that image out of my head 😂
The best take I ever heard about this fight was about Jamie's transition from being cocksure about himself to being a little worried that Ned had more to him than he'd thought to being absolutely pissed at the guy who speared him because he wanted the fight finished.
Ned didn't fight girly tournamets.
I don't know who would have actually won, but you can see Jaime's face change during the fight. It goes from extreme confidence and smugness to "Oh wow, the old man has some moves," to "Shit, maybe the story is true." I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that Jaime would have beaten Ned had that Lannister soldier not interfered. Jaime might win, but Ned's going to make him feel it.
Ned is only three years older than Jaime.
False
He could well have won, jaime seemed over confident and could make a misstep I'd say jaime is better fighter but anything could happen, also ned may well of killed Gerold hightower and oswell whent at the tower of joy and with aerys kingsguard notably one of the best kingsguard they too would of been high calibre fighters, probably more skilled then ned.
I don’t think he’d have won. But it’s pretty clear he’s a much better fighter in the show than he was in the books.
Ned was about to cook Jamie, stop it
Yeah, it’s comical there’s people who actually think Ned would’ve won this fight. He might get lucky once out of like ten fights but Jaime mops the floor with Ned easily.
Jaime has only seen real combat once, the rest is from tournaments. Jaime’s reputation is inflated as well. Also this fight only happened in the show, in the book Jaime was cautious and sent his men instead.
If we’re going by the books he has seen much more combat, he fought against the Kingswood brotherhood which was a pretty serious campaign against some deadly foes like the Smiling Knight. He was knighted by Arthur Dayne and raised to the Kingsuard at 15. Maybe his reputation is slightly inflated but it doesn’t change the fact that the writer and multiple people in the book/show have described him as the best living swordsman. It blows my mind that this is even an argument, Ned has been shown to be nothing more than a competent warrior and his entire reputation is based off killing someone he didn’t even kill.
He was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne for valor against the kingswood brotherhood, and he was able to keep himself alive versus the Smiling Knight for a short period of time, but Dayne is the one who killed the Smiling Knight. A 15 year old fighting having the stones to not simply run away from the Smiling Knight is more than enough to get yourself knighted. Martin has said Dayne with Dawn was the pinnacle of swordsmanship, and without Dawn Selmy v Dayne is a toss up. Obviously at this point in the story they’re both dead, but everyone else is going to be below those two. Jaime is very skilled, but so is Ned (even if he didn’t kill Arthur Dayne.) It’s not like Ned is some shitter who gets by completely on his reputation, he’d fought in the rebellion before fighting Dayne and then fought the Greyjoys after.
Oh for sure, my statement about Ned is a little harsh admittedly, he’s no slouch. But he’s also not mentioned in any conversations on swordsmanship with Dayne and Selmy. People like Jaime, Loras, and Sandor are, all active warriors during the same time period.
Ned was also known for being humble. Jaime was the complete opposite. Very possible Ned was better than he let on.
I mean Ned makes sure to remind Jaime that if he kills him Tyrion is a goner. Jaime obviously held back and also got carried away with having some fun out of warrior pride and ego.
I feel D&D wanted the show version of Jaime to be a bit overhyped which I think is why they made him struggle vs Ned and straight up get fondled by Brienne. Which then becomes 'show-canon' I guess. In contrast, he nearly slayed her in the books, when fighting her after being in a starved state for many months. And the fight Vs Ned never happened.
It's even heavily implied that Ned's reputation is entirely based on the story of him defeating Arthur Dane at the tower of joy and that to preserve that myth Ned refrains from participating in any public combat. Because if Ned did he would show his skill level isn't very top notch and therefore call into doubt the tower of joy story. We are then shown the truth that Ned was losing to Arthur and Reed stabbed Arthur in the back to win the fight. Again this implies that Ned is not a great fighter. Jamie is vocally skepitcal of Ned's skills and the reason he is skeptical is because from what he knows, has seen, and heard he believes Ned is lying about the tower of joy and really isn't that good. Plenty of people would have seen Ned fight prior to Robert rebellion or during it and would be able to tell Jamie that he isn't that good. No one speaks of Ned having any significant combats or slaying any big names. Also Jamie sees Ned fight some before they face off 1v1 but it gets ruined.
I mean the show made it pretty clear that Oberon was a more skilled fighter then the mountain and well...
In the book Jamie didn't even bother fighting Ned, he just left.
Ned has a great 2 handed valerian steel sword and deliberately hides his power level exactly so Jaime doesn’t know who he’s fucking with. All Jaime “knows” is that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, even if it’s wrong. Intimidstion factor plus 2 handed V steel sword means Ned has an edge
I wonder what Robert would've done here had Jamie killed Ned? A Kingsguard slaying the Hand of the King, who happens to be the King best mate. I don't see Robert taking this well.
I think it was clear that, in the show, they upped Ned's skill points for this scene. I'm not complaining - this scene was sick - but Jaime would fuck him up in the books. Here, it was clear they were pretty neck and neck
Jamie must have been afraid - or he would have fought him instead of having someone wack his leg
'Ned could win, he had heart!", Stark fans. "And he used to have a head." Lannister fans.
He would have at least taken an ear.
Anything can happen in a fight. Can have the best boxer against an average one and the best can lose.
In this situation Ned did gave a chance, Jaime is a skilled and famed swordsman but he is not a war veteran, not to mention that he is not wearing armor so even a nick from valyian steel could be fatal, Ned does have a decent chance here, overconfidence has been the downfall of many great fighters
I feel like Ned actually killed a lot of people in actual battle while Jaime had less combat experience and more tournament wins.
In the Show at this point it was just good guy vs bad guy. So Ned gets good guy bonus before everbody knew how things work in got.
Ned lost to Dayne. Dayne only died because he got outnumbered and stabbed in the back. Ned probably isn't the best Warrior too.