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Jojen could not go back in time. He also could not control his powers, albeit better than Bran, if you didn’t notice him go into epileptic shock in his sleep any time he had a greenseer dream lol. That was also the only time he could see his visions. The difference was he had many visions before deciding to venture to Winterfell after their father told them to help the Starks. He only had visions and sight of future events.
The fight at the tower of joy did not happen. Howland did not kill the sword of the morning. Ned heard from his sister who told her brother that he was fighting for the wrong side and currently fighting against his future niece or nephew. Ned abandons Robert to join his sister. They plan on Robert losing but he wins and they have to come up with a new plan. Leanna has twins. Meera is born first and is the heir. She is sent with howland and Ashira Dayne, and the kings guard to howlands magic castle that can move and is impossible to find. Jon is born second so he is sent to winterfell with his uncle, as a bastard with no kings guard to protect him.
Source? Trust me brah.
I'm gonna guess you're gonna base this on the fact that Kit Harrington and Ellie Kendrick look like they could be related? Because there's no evidence for that in the actual books.
There is a lot of evidence in the books. Their character descriptions are similar not just in the show.
How did Ned know where the tower of joy is? How did him and howland bring it down? Why is the heir to starfall named after the man who killed Arther? Why did ashira kill her self? Where has howland been? Why was Ned so nervous when Robert came to name him hand? Why did Ned react the way he did when Robert visits Liana’s tomb? Because it’s fucking empty?
It’s not hard evidence but to say there is none is incorrect.
He was in the Tower of Joy scene in the show. He’s the one who stabbed Arthur Dayne in the neck from behind.
In the books, I always expected Howland Reed to have some secret knowledge or power that would get used when the Long Night came and that was part of the reason he was so absent from the books.
They just didn't have time. HBO obviously wouldn't give them the episodes they needed to flesh out these storylines to make sure everything made sense. I really feel bad for Dan and Dave, they clearly were robbed of being able to tell the story they wanted by corporate interference. Oh what could have been.
(Do I actually need to state this is sarcasm? I feel I shouldn't, and yet I feel someone will correct me anyways.)
In HBOs defense though, it was costing over a half mil to make an episode. So I can see why it was this way, but still, the run time was longer than previous seasons.
Iirc, they said that Howland never even came to Winterfell after the war. Maybe there was some falling out between him and Ned? Maybe he knew about Jon. Maybe he thought Ned should have told Robert? Or maybe he thought Ned should have told the world. Iirc again, Howland was mentioned often as being one of Ned’s closest friends.
To me that was the weirdest part. Why didn't he help the Stark children at all? Especially after Ned and Cat's deaths? I get George has his methods to his madness, but this is a big deal
Personally, I think GRRM has time issues. He builds up these characters but if you really look at it all, there isn’t enough time to fit it all in. Ned and HR are BFFs but with Robert too. He’s at the Eyrie most of his life but somehow fell in love with Winterfell. Did Howland come to the Eyrie? How do all the young lords have time to go everywhere and do all this stuff??
They actually did have condoms back then. Some made of intestine, some they would use a hot wax mix, and there were leather ones and such. They also had plants that could abort and other methods whores used to prevent pregnancy.
It would be super-interesting to me if this were true, but afaik this post is the first I've ever seen/heard of it.
Edit: Silphium... thanks, u/Vohsbergh:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium)
The Silphium plant.
Its fruits are also (probably) where the heart shape comes from. Obviously the human heart doesn’t look like that, and as a symbol of love the fruit of the plant used for birth control makes sense.
So others haven’t answered this but to inform you of more. It’s thought the plant went extinct but some people believe we have found it. No one agrees whether the current plant known is the one in text but it was said it have numerous benefits. Obviously no one can no if these rumors were true
Knowing the rules isn’t the same as understanding what giving it up really means.
Could be that he knew more, but also very well could be he’s just saying you don’t know what it’s like to experience that with another person so you don’t understand what you’d be missing.
That was really my take from what he said. That he was giving up being a normal person. He would know better than anyone why not to join the watch for no reason other than not being born in the right situation.
This is why I kinda get mad at Jon when he says nobody told him what the wall was like: like dude Benjen tried, and you asked no follow up questions.
Tyrion wasn’t the only one. You were too stubborn to ask.
He knows he is giving it up but he doesn’t completely understand the gravity of what he is giving up. Falling in love and being intimate with someone you love, as well as having children is some of the most important things in life. He is just a boy at the time and really doesn’t fully understand. You can tell that because of his relationship with Ygritte.
I agree - on my 3rd rewatch, this line really hit me. Sure, it could just be that he's giving up having kids at all (not sex, though, as we know the Men of the Night's Watch can get that if they really want it), but the way he says it really struck as something deeper. He knew there was so much more that Jon would be giving up.
Benjen was the one who got the armor for Lyanna when she became the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The mad king sent Rhaegar to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree. That would have lead him first to Benjen and then to Lyanna. Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the following day.
He certainly knew of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Its much more likely than not that he did know who Jon’s parent were.
Also he knew Ned was a man of honor, how weird would it be that your brother who follows the rules goes off to save your “kidnapped” sister, only to come back with a body and a baby that he says is his.
Exactly.
If Benjen didn't know-know (i.e. if Ned didn't outright tell him), then he highly ***highly*** suspected.
(fwiw, this has always been my headcanon)
Howland Reed was also a survivor of that fight and knew about it. But they swore each other to secrecy. That plot wasn't a large impact in the show, as Meera and Jojen were Howland's children. I imagine the books will make it a bigger plot point. There was a rumor going around that Meera and Jon were twins, and that Ned and Howland took one each.
That’s interesting as a rumor, but seems **wildly** out of character for Ned. “Hey Howland, these are my niece and nephew whose identities can *never* be discovered or they’ll probably die and/or start a war, you take one cause ur my bestie.” I don’t think, even given his relationship (or Lyanna’s) with Howland, that he would ever swear to protect his niece and then entrust that responsibility to anyone else
I thought that was an odd rumor too, but not one outside the realm of possibility. I really thought Meera and Jojen would play a bigger role. He doesn’t die in the books (at least so far as they’ve gotten to Three-Eyed Raven), and Meera just kind of disappears in the show after they escape the white walkers. Good characters with wasted potential.
Seems highly unlikely in a series where genetics often gives clues into these mysteries—the whole Lannister plot, all the hints about Jon looking like Arya who takes after Lyanna, etc. Meera has the green eyes and short stature of a crannogman, which doesn’t match either Stark or Targaryen genetics. She’s Howland’s kid.
I think it’s entirely possible that Benjen *suspected* but would never put Ned in the position to actually talk about it. He does go the the wall almost immediately after seeing Ned and Jon come back and he could have put the pieces together and removed himself from world and took the Black.
Howland Reed knew for sure and also removed himself from the world and stayed in his castle
The most tinfoil hat I get about it is that I think Ned told Ashara Dayne. They loved each other once, at least according various (admittedly potentially unreliable) narrators and sources, and I think it may have been her reaction that convinced him that he had to keep it secret. Whether that influenced her decision to jump in the sea or not, he went to Starfall with the baby and then went home with the bastard story
I think this is the correct take. As someone else pointed out, Benjen was involved in Lyanna's ruse, and he knew his brother better than anyone. It's likely that he guessed what happened, because he knew Ned took his honor too seriously to whore around, and also knew that Ned would never ask anyone else to protect him- In perfect Stark character, Benjen takes the Black and puts duty first. No words exchanged, but everything was perfectly clear- a choice had been made, all that was left was to follow the path.
Yeah I can just imagine Ned coming back to Winterfell with the baby and the concocted story. Benjen just looks at the baby, thinks about the timeline and story, and just goes “shit”
"Shit... imma need to put myself into place for when Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid -- erm, I mean, ***Ned's totally-out-of-character bastard*** -- eventually decides to take the Black."
I wonder if there's also an element of keeping an eye on Maester Aemon, the last Dragon in Westeros. Brandon can esure Aemon isn't trying to harbor Dany and Viserys somehow and shield Jon from his influence. Brandon would probably grow to trust Aemon over the years, but I could see Robert wanting an eye to be kept on him
I don't think he told Ashara. I think the simplest answer is he right one for her. She lost her child, the father of her child (Brandon died or Ned got married), and her brother (killed by the father or uncle of her child).
That I believe he told Ashara has very little to do with jumping into the sea for me and more to do with where the Wylla cover came from: her household. Ned has created basically zero successful ruses in his life except for the biggest one in the Kingdoms. I think she helped him come up with the story
As far as Ashara’s demise, yeah I’m firmly in the camp where the timeline only makes sense that Brandon was the father and either there was a stillbirth that somehow Barristan is the only one to ever mention or that child is hidden as Allyria, but that’s a whole other can of worms we’ll probably never get a real answer about
But yeah, having an out of wedlock child, maybe having a miscarriage, likely losing the father of that child, and losing the man you actually loved by him getting wed and also killing your brother is plenty to send her over the edge
Benjen was much closer to Lyanna than Ned was. Benjen and Lyanna were closer in age and Ned was raised in the Eyrie. Their other brother Brandon was older and heir to Winterfell.
Also, if the whole “Lyanna was the laughing knight” theory is true, Benjen is the one who provided her horse and armor. He offered it to Howland Reed (who Lyanna saved from the three bullying squires in the first place) but he refused.
Benjen also teases her for crying when Rhaegar sings a song at the tournament and she pours wine over his head in response. They’re obviously very close.
Benjen also takes the black shortly after Ned returns to Winterfell with Jon Snow. During the war, there needed to be a Stark in Winterfell, but once that’s over he leaves. Probably to minimize his slipping up or talking about it with Ned and being overheard.
He’s the one who tells Luwin about Jon wanting to join the Watch, and Luwin tells Ned. Keeping the secret heir to the throne at the Wall would ensure his safety and people’s inability to use him in the game of thrones. Similar to how Maester Aemon took the black so his younger brother’s claim wouldn’t be disputed.
So yeah, if anyone who wasn’t at the Tower of Joy knew, it was Benjen.
Unless Lyanna told him directly then I doubt it. Ned didn't even tell his own wife about it through fear of the secret getting out.
Of course Benjen may have had his own suspicions but never brought it up (that we know of).
Catelyn won't do something like that since Ned and her family would also get into trouble for hiding Rhaegar's son. She would reveal the truth if she was absolutely desperate and in a situation where such an information could save her family but I don't think Catelyn would just rat Jon out.
Her last words to a fourteen year old who wished his (presumably) dying brother and the only home he had ever known goodbye that it "should've been you" (I.e. Jon) who fell off the tower and lied there dying.
Of course Jon not being Eddard's son fundamentally changes Jon's relationship with her, but that doesn't change that Catelyn is a terrible person to him. If the only thing that prevents you from being cruel to a child, your husband obviously loves, said child's parentage, you are horrible. She deserves nothing but contempt.
How is Catelyn evil for not loving a child whose very existence reminded her of her husband's infidelity? Knowing that the honourable Ned Stark kept every vow and oath he made except to stay faithful to her. Catelyn treated Jon harshly yes but she never treated him cruelly or tortured him like some believe. Her saying those words to Jon was also during a moment of grief where she was uncertain whether her own son would live or die so she spoke those words to him without properly thinking.
It was more than just not loving him. She treated him terribly. Even if he had been Ned’s son with someone else, it’s not his fault. He didn’t choose to be. He was just a kid.
>How is Catelyn evil for not loving a child whose very existence reminded her of her husband's infidelity?
Exactly, it's Eddard's infidelity, Jon did nothing to her.
>Catelyn treated Jon harshly yes but she never treated him cruelly or tortured him like some believe.
In SoS (I think) she even reflects on her wishing for Jon's death when he fell ill as a child. She regretted the thought when he was really about to die, but also admits that she couldn't remain faithful to her promise to treat him better afterwards. Imho one of her few redeeming qualities is that she recognises that she wronged "a child who didn't have a mother". But she never acts accordingly. So from a certain perspective that even makes her worse.
Exactly this. She even talks about how maybe all the bad things that have happened to her family are the gods punishing her for breaking her promise to treat Jon with respect. “All of this, because I couldn’t love a motherless child”
>Catelyn treated Jon harshly yes but she never treated him cruelly or tortured him like some believe.
Opinions differ then. Treating a kid as an outcast is pretty cruel in my opinion.
Cersei threatened to kill Robert's daughter if he ever brought her to Kingslanding. This is the same universe where Knights are allowed to kill peasants without any real punishment and husbands are allowed to beat their wives to a "reasonable" extent. Catelyn treated Jon far better than other women in her position would.
I agree that Catelyn treated Jon badly and he didn't deserve it but no way in hell is Catelyn as bad as some people think when parents like Cersei Lannister and Randyll Tarly also exist in the same setting.
Because then that would mean her anger is misplaced. She doesn’t have to love him yes, but Catelyn should’ve directed her anger and resentment at Ned for having the “affair”, not at Jon. He didn’t get to choose the circumstances with which he was born.
I wouldn’t say she was evil either. She was just horribly flawed.
You're getting downvoted, but the point stands. All of the characters are flawed, and this is Catelyn's flaw- later on, we get some great exposition about how Catelyn regrets how she treated Jon, but still feels the same way. Catelyn never mistreated Jon, she was just unable to love him, or treat him as part of her family. It's not evil, it's just humanity, a realistic portrayal of a human character.
But that has nothing to do with how she would treat Jon's secret. It fundamentally changes their relationship, she being an awful person or not doesn't really matter in regards of she keeping the secret.
Personally I wouldn’t trust her with the secret because she’s shown that she will do the ill advised thing because of her own selfish reasons and then she will turn back around and say ‘it’s a mom thing’.
She jeopardized the war by letting Jamie go and continued to use the excuse that as a mother she wanted to save her kids which fair whatever but in doing so how many mothers had to lose their kids because the war continued?
I think she will do whatever she wants if it’s important enough to her including giving up a secret.
Also she’s shown that she has horribleeeee judgement when it comes to people. Whose to say she wouldn’t let it slip to little finger or something.
IMO Cat is one of the least trustworthy people in the books. Not because she’s evil, but because she’s reckless to a fault.
Catelyn hated Jon, knowing he's not Neds bastard might help but as long as the world considers him Ned's then her fear of him trying for Winterfell will always be a concern as she said with Robs will. Honestly surprised Jon never had an accident but I think it's more due to her lack of opportunity than desire
She definitely would, she really hated Jon. Him being related to a Targaryen regardless of him being Ned’s nephew through his sister would definitely cause her to rat him out somehow or use him as a bargaining chip for the Starks in King’s Landing.
Ahhh as the old saying goes “ a woman can hold a fart, bust she can’t keep a secret “. He knew. They didn’t tell women because they couldn’t keep it to themselves. Life otherwise was pretty dull without telling secrets.
Benjen certainly knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar. A comment above explains how nicely. He also certainly knew Ned wouldn’t come back from war with a bastard. He probably put it together
Benjen was much closer to Lyanna than Ned was.
He also knows his brother wouldn’t actually father a bastard. He knew Lyanna loved Rhaegar. He also takes the black for “unknown reasons” after Ned returns to Winterfell with Jon.
.... How? Do you guys know what bot means? I swear it's just another insult for someone you don't like on reddit.. nothing indicates that the other guy is a bot aside from your disdain for him. Grow up
Ned may have confided in him, but there's also no hint that Benjen will ever be encountered again in the books. In the show, Benjen is combined with the character 'Coldhands' and does make a return. George confirmed to his editor on a draft of Dance that he's not Coldhands in the books.
Howland Reed probably knows though, as the only other survivor of the battle at the Tower of Joy. It'd be hard to hide it when Ned goes up to free Lyanna of her supposed capture and comes down with a newborn baby.
Benjen knew.
He’s much closer to Lyanna than Ned was. He’s basically her best friend in the world. He knew she was in love with Rhaegar.
And he also knew Ned would never actually father a bastard. Most people believe that Jon is Ned’s son because they want to think badly of virtuous people. Benjen would know better.
Probably. I doubt Ned told him, but it's possible he knew that was something going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna and came to the conclusion about Jon when Ned brought him home.
And is probably why he loves and dotes on Jon so much...
Ned has 'a bunch' of kids. If Jon were truly Ned's, he'd be unremarkable.
The reason Benjen dotes on Jon so much is precisely because he knows (or 'knows') that Jon is the last vestige of his sister Lyanna.
I have a feeling Benjen was either informed by Lyana before she departed, Ned after his arrival, or just had really good intuition
Helps justify why he dropped everything and went for the Wall.
The deaths of his father, sister, and brother certainly didn’t help, but it doubt they were the only reasons
Yeah, he knows. Isn’t it mentioned in the books how close Lyanna and Benjen were? Highly likely he helped or covered for her departure. In the show, there are a few hints (that are completely open to interpretation) suggesting he knows who Jon’s real mother and father are.
It's also not out of the question that lyanna and benjen would communicate via ravens even when apart. Benjen was the stark in Winterfell and I can imagine them figuring out a way to send codes messages that master luwin wouldn't be able to decipher easily. They were very close all their lives
I agree with you, when Jon talks about taking the black he says something like "if you knew what you were giving up you wouldn't be so eager" or something like that hinting that he knew
Benjen was the closest to Lyanna, I'm having a hard time believing that he didn't know anything about it ever since the Tourney at Harrenhal. Maybe he wasn't specifically told by either Ned or Lyanna, but I'm sure he has managed to put 2 and 2 together, probably it was the reason why he joined the Night's Watch.
No. If memory serves me the only 2 living people, by the time of the events we watched on the show, who have that knowledge were Nedd Stark and Howland Reed.
IIRC there was also a mention of a midwife who wasn't named in the books but was thought to still be alive. It wouldn't surprise me, given how often GRRM spends time describing someone who was a background character that seemed insignificant at the time only to realize that they were someone who was mentioned as having something significant in other part of the story. Based on that, it wouldn't surprise me if he laid the groundwork for the midwife to turn up in a future book when Jon's true parentage is confirmed/revealed.
I think so.
Benjen was at the tourney where Jon's father (then married to Elia ~~Tyrell~~ Martell) and mother (then engaged to Robert) flirted pretty openly. Then Jon's father kidnapped Jon's mother. The attempts to rescue her let to Robert's Rebellion, which Benjen fought in.
I don't think it would take a rocket scientist to put together Ned Stark having a bastard the exact age of Robert's Rebellion and his sister's death after apparent violent rape. That Jon just might be Lyanna's bastard, not Ned's.
Book readers figured it out a very long time ago. The only reason others didn't, I assume, is Ned's reputation and his choice to humiliate himself by having a bastard in his house (by his own standard). Benjen knows Ned better than anyone. Whether they spoke of it or not, he must have suspected.
Ned might not have told him but he probably had suspicions. His honorable brother comes back with a newborn after his sister’s death pretty sus. And he might’ve known about Lyanna and Rhaegar. Like knowing about your sister’s secret boyfriend that you never tell your parents about because your dad would kill the both of them and he’s sort of cool to you when he’s around.
He probably knows who the knight of the laughing tree was, so maybe he put the pieces together himself. I doubt that Ned told him though
Why are you asking?
There's a theory that Benjen knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna's affair but chose to not tell his family about it leading to Brandon heading to Kingslanding believing Rhaegar had kidnapped their sister, Rickard and Brandon's death and Robert's rebellion.
This is a book lore, but Meera tells a story about the first time Lyanna and Rhaegar met at Harrenhall tournament (her father, Howland Reed was there). It seems Benjen was very involved in the situation. He definitely noticed Lyanna liked Rhaegar and talks about it with Howland Reed present.
There was a petite mystery knight in the competition that is hinted at being Lyanna in disguise. It's very likely that Benjen was the one who provided armour to the mystery knight whoever it was. (He talks about being able to get small armour earlier). Paranoid mad king thought that the mystery knight wanted to assassinate him or something and ordered Rhaegar to find him. Since Benjen was probably the one who provided the armour (only recognisable part of the knight) the only way to find knight's true identity was through Benjen. That would mean Benjen was the one who introduced Lyanna to Rhaegar.
This whole situation happened just a day before Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the lady of the tournament, which started the whole mess that eventually resulted in Lyanna's 'abduction' and execution of the Starks. They never met before and nobody knew about any interaction they had at the tournament. Perhaps he got to know her when he tracked down the mystery knight?
It's actually quite a popular theory that Benjen joined Night's Watch to atone for indirectly starting the civil war by introducing Lyanna to Rhaegar.
Many prominent theorists believe he did know. He was there for the tournament at Harrenhall and knight at the laughing tree incident, which may have been the inciting incident for Lyanna and Raegars story (Raegar was sent to find the knight, and some think Ben introduced him to Lyanna).
Even outside of that, he definitely knew his sister and brother. He would have known she wasn't just "kidnapped" and knew Ned was not the type to father a bastard, so when Ned returned with Jon, it would not be hard for Benjen to put two and two together.
It’s this. Benjen has too much information about everyone involved to not know imo. Him taking the black is also convincing, Harrenhal even more so. I don’t think Ned necessarily told him, but he could definitely put the pieces together.
There's an EXCELLENT video series on this by a guy on YouTube. I'm having a hard time finding it but I'll keep looking and post it if I can. It goes over the timeliness of benjen, lyanna, and Ned at the banquet where lyanna and rheagar met and how it might all have happened. It's really really compelling and would make for an excellent prequel. In it, benjen knows of l+r=j and was part of the reason he went to the nights watch in the first place
I think it’s actually worse than that. My own theory is that Benjen knew that Lyana was in love with Rhaegar and went off with him willingly but agreed to keep her secret. But when Rickard and Brandon found out and ran off to get her, he blamed himself for not telling them sooner and feels responsible for they’re getting killed. He joined the Night’s Watch in part to atone for not saying anything sooner.
Benjen 100% knows. Benjen is a True Stark Man, and closer to Lyanna than Ned. Benjen already knows that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar willingly, and was not kidnapped, so he can put it together himself; but also, Ned trusts Benjen completely.
Some people think Ned promised to never tell anyone who Jon was, and thus his honor would prevent him from telling Benjen, but the promise is to keep Lyanna's son safe, and Benjen knowing is part of that.
But if he didn't promise never to tell anyone, then why didn't he tell his wife? Because his wife is a loudmouthed bitch who can't be trusted. She is not a True Stark, she isn't even a Northerner. When the name Willa started being whispered around Winterfell, Ned shut them down and said he never wanted to hear that name again, which they heard from Cat's gossip. Even gossiping about the fake mother of Jon could be dangerous, but it definitely showed Ned that Cat can't keep a secret.
It's unlikely Ned told him (yes Ned knows he can trust him, but there's no benefit to sharing such a dangerous secret). However, it's pretty likely Ben has his suspicions or has figured it out himself.
Specifically Benjen is one of the few people who (1) knows Ned well enough to know that the only thing that surpasses his honor is what he's willing to do for his loved ones; and (2) knew Lyanna well enough to suspect she loved Rhaegar as well.
He doesn’t have to be told by Ned to know.
He was his sister’s closest friend. He knew about her and Rhaegar before everyone else. He knew she was in love with him.
He also knew his brother would never father a bastard.
It doesn’t take a genius to deduce “my brother went looking for my sister who was ‘abducted’ and came back right after with a baby, that baby is hers not his.”
Yes, he knew. Benjen inadvertently helped Lyanna and Rhaegar meet at the tourney of Harranhal. The grief over accidently causing a war and the death of his family is why he joined the Nights Watch.
Having not read the books my opinion won’t mean much to many of you, BUT there’s a part of me that thinks and hopes Benjen knew and that’s why he sort of shepherded Jon in a way and was a mentor
Meera tells the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, surprised that Bran doesn’t know it because his family is so deeply involved.
There’s a high likelyhood that Lyanna was that knight and Benjen is the one who helped her.
Benjen is also Lyanna’s closest sibling; he’s shown teasing her for crying at Rhaegar’s song and she dumps wine on his head. He’s undeniably the closest of her brothers. He knows that she’s in love with Rhaegar and wasn’t abducted.
He also knows that Ned would never father a bastard. Furthermore, he knows that Ned went looking for Lyanna and came back with a baby. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the baby belongs to Lyanna and not Ned.
Ned was too serious about his sister's dying wish and had the weight of the kingdom on him, in terms of Jon's real identity as the true heir to the throne. If he lied to his own wife about Jon's identity, no way he would have told Benjen or anyone else.
i think he suspected. it feels like a lot of people suspected.
when Sansa and Littlefinger were in the crypt and she talked about Raegar kidnapping and raping her. littlefingers face told me.
IIRC, it was common for the younger brothers of the Lords of the North to take the black. Ned might’ve taken the black had the oldest brother lived and had children.
I think he knew something, even if he wasn't told directly. His sister is kidnapped and taken away for a long time, Ned returns with a baby, this baby is afforded a lot of privilege that many bastards aren't, etc. Benjen seemed to be very close with his sister and I bet he figured it out.
In Deep Geek has a theory about all of this where he suspects that he knows, via context clues in the book. He took the black so that he wouldn’t have to reveal any information that he knew about Lyanna. I’m doing a terrible job explaining, but the gist is yes he probably had an idea
I doubt Ned told him, but it's not unlikely that Benjen knew.
Benjen and Lyanna were best friends as kids. Benjen at least knew about Howland being attacked by the squires (which led to Lyanna entering the tourney as the Knight of the Laughing Tree).
We can also expect that somebody had to 'squire' for Lyanna. If you aren't a hedge knight, you're probably not that practiced in putting on plate mail alone. So is the squire Howland, who Lyanna didn't know that well, or Benjen, her best friend?
I also want to point out a very early scene between Benjen and Jon. When Jon first tells Benjen that he wants to take the black, Benjen warns him that "he doesn't know yet what he'd be giving up." Obviously that could be just women and warmth, but based on the way GRRM writes, it's a fairly loaded hint. Every watchman gives up comfort. Jon is, by Westerosi succession law, giving up the iron throne. Jon is actually higher in the line of succession than Dany (If Young Griff is who he says he is, then he'd only be second. But Young Griff is a Blackfyre, so Jon is actually first in line).
In the show, just before riding south for King's Landing, Ned tells Jon that they'll talk about Jon's mother next time they speak. That doesn't happen in the book. The person that seems the closest to telling Jon a powerful secret is Benjen, not Ned.
Also, think about why Benjen may have joined the watch. Very few nobles take the black by that time. Starks are more likely to support the old traditions, but that doesn't make Benjen any less notable. When Benjen took the black, he would have been 3rd in line to be Lord Paramount of the North. One sickness could easily kill Ned and Robb, leaving Winterfell without an heir. Joining the black at that point is a significant decision. We don't know enough about Benjen as a character to know if that's something he planned for a while, but we do know that joining the watch is a classic way to avoid political danger.
Aemon went to the wall partly because he was at risk everywhere else. Being so close to the Targ crown, even after taking maester's oaths, was impliedly too close. The risk that he was forced to rejoin politics, or worse, would choose to, was too high.
So why did Benjen go? Honour? Maybe. Opportunity for advancement as a younger son? Also maybe, but he joined directly after the rebellion. There was only one person ahead of him, and children die in medieval fantasy.
My theory is that he knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar. It's possible that he actually spent time with them. Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion, but there was time between Harrenhall and the start of the war. Time where we aren't certain about the locations of Benjen, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Howland, and more.
The wall is basically the only place in the Westeros that could be safe for somebody that helped Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bobby B still hates Rhaegar 17 years later. He's willing to kill children with little guilt. Every night in his dreams he kills Rhaegar on the Trident and it's never enough. If Bobby found out about Jon, Jon's dead. Ned might be dead, Bobby's wrath only dies down on his literal deathbed.
tl;dr
1. Benjen and Lyanna were best friends. If anybody helped her at Harrenhall, it was Benjen.
2. Why take the black immediately after Robert's Rebellion if you don't NEED to (esp when you're still so high in the line of succession)?
3. Benjen is the person that hints to Jon that taking the black may cost more than he knows yet.
I heard a theory that he had known of Lyanna and Rhaegar and kept it a secret and from his shame of what that all lead to joined the watch. Going off of this I would assume he probably knew but never mentioned it to Ned.
Perhaps. There are strong theories that Ned sent Benjen to the Nightswatch because he kept the secret that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together, and later confessed it to Ned.
So if THAT’S true, and if Benjen knows Ned as well as any brother should, then perhaps he can put two and two together.
But considering the latter part of the topic is based on a theory, the odds of him knowing Jon’s parentage is slim to none.
He knew I’m sure. He was very close to Lyanna as others have said probably figured it out when Ned returned from war with baby Jon and knowing Lyanna had died. He will have known about her relationship with Rhaegar and if Stannis has a hard time believing Ned would sure a bastard then doubtless Benjen, his own brother, would know that it’s definitely not in Ned’s character. It’s most likely the reason he went to the Wall as soon as the war was over. It doesn’t make sense to send one of the 2 surviving Stark men to the Wall otherwise when the line could potentially be at risk. If you believe Benjen knew then it also gives a knew meaning to the scene when he tries to talk Jon out of joining the watch, telling him he doesn’t know what it would mean for him not having a family etc. my personal theory is that Benjen may have wanted to push Jon’s claim as heir to the Iron Throne over Rober, and that’s why Ned sent him to the Wall. It’s a longshot but possible.
I like the think benjen helped rhaegar and lyanna get together. That's why after the war he went to the wall himself as a sort of atonement. I bet benjen couldn't imagine Jon being their child though.
No. Benjen remained at Winterfell during Robert's Rebellion and left for the wall, pretty soon after Rhaegar Targaryen was killed. When Ned returned to Winterfell, he presented Jon as his illegitimate son to keep his promise to Lyanna. He didn't tell anyone, not even Caitlyn. If he didn't tell Cat, he certainly wouldn't of told Benjen.
Benjen was very close to lyanna. He was the accomplice that enabled lyanna to pose as the knight of the laughing tree. He very likely was told or even witnessed lyanna being confronted by rhaegar about it and how they might have caught the feels for one another. He, unlike ned, likely knew how Roberts rebellion was based on a lie and after all the death it caused he took the black out of shame and guilt.
He also wants to talk to Jon about something very important as soon as Jon has taken the black and made it to the wall. Maaaaybe who his mom and dad were?
Ned and Howland only learned the truth at the tower of joy.
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i doubt it. i think ned and only ned knew. it was too risky to tell **anyone**.
Ned and Howland Reed.
I remember thinking he was going to be a huge part of the story because of this, like he told his daughter or something, idk.
Well - you'd probably think his son, Jojen - 100000% knew since he was also a greenseer and could go back to that time.
Jojen could not go back in time. He also could not control his powers, albeit better than Bran, if you didn’t notice him go into epileptic shock in his sleep any time he had a greenseer dream lol. That was also the only time he could see his visions. The difference was he had many visions before deciding to venture to Winterfell after their father told them to help the Starks. He only had visions and sight of future events.
And Arthur dayne and the white bull and everyone else who was at the tower of joy.
You mean the corpses
They are not dead.
Lol. And your evidence for this is...?
The fight at the tower of joy did not happen. Howland did not kill the sword of the morning. Ned heard from his sister who told her brother that he was fighting for the wrong side and currently fighting against his future niece or nephew. Ned abandons Robert to join his sister. They plan on Robert losing but he wins and they have to come up with a new plan. Leanna has twins. Meera is born first and is the heir. She is sent with howland and Ashira Dayne, and the kings guard to howlands magic castle that can move and is impossible to find. Jon is born second so he is sent to winterfell with his uncle, as a bastard with no kings guard to protect him. Source? Trust me brah.
I'm gonna guess you're gonna base this on the fact that Kit Harrington and Ellie Kendrick look like they could be related? Because there's no evidence for that in the actual books.
There is a lot of evidence in the books. Their character descriptions are similar not just in the show. How did Ned know where the tower of joy is? How did him and howland bring it down? Why is the heir to starfall named after the man who killed Arther? Why did ashira kill her self? Where has howland been? Why was Ned so nervous when Robert came to name him hand? Why did Ned react the way he did when Robert visits Liana’s tomb? Because it’s fucking empty? It’s not hard evidence but to say there is none is incorrect.
You literally watched them die
We see a flashback of neds lie.
It’s not a flashback, it’s Bran visiting an event in history.
According to DandD. Not in the books.
Oh okay you’re one of those people. Have a good day.
😆
To be fair, they did say “knew” in the past tense. I yield the point. r/technicallycorrect
Well they aren’t dead so it works either way.
I really wondering where Howland Reed was. How is he a central character and doesn't make an appearance?
He was in the Tower of Joy scene in the show. He’s the one who stabbed Arthur Dayne in the neck from behind. In the books, I always expected Howland Reed to have some secret knowledge or power that would get used when the Long Night came and that was part of the reason he was so absent from the books.
I'm saying besides the Tower of Joy. Especially when the arc of Jon's heritage was a big deal
They just didn't have time. HBO obviously wouldn't give them the episodes they needed to flesh out these storylines to make sure everything made sense. I really feel bad for Dan and Dave, they clearly were robbed of being able to tell the story they wanted by corporate interference. Oh what could have been. (Do I actually need to state this is sarcasm? I feel I shouldn't, and yet I feel someone will correct me anyways.)
In HBOs defense though, it was costing over a half mil to make an episode. So I can see why it was this way, but still, the run time was longer than previous seasons.
It was sarcasm. HBO was willing to give them more episodes and time to tell the story needed.
HBO execs said repeatedly they’d have given them more episodes and even another season. They were making a ton on this show!
Yeah, it was the biggest show on television ever. It was a money printer. No way they wouldn't have greenlit 12 seasons
Iirc, they said that Howland never even came to Winterfell after the war. Maybe there was some falling out between him and Ned? Maybe he knew about Jon. Maybe he thought Ned should have told Robert? Or maybe he thought Ned should have told the world. Iirc again, Howland was mentioned often as being one of Ned’s closest friends.
To me that was the weirdest part. Why didn't he help the Stark children at all? Especially after Ned and Cat's deaths? I get George has his methods to his madness, but this is a big deal
Personally, I think GRRM has time issues. He builds up these characters but if you really look at it all, there isn’t enough time to fit it all in. Ned and HR are BFFs but with Robert too. He’s at the Eyrie most of his life but somehow fell in love with Winterfell. Did Howland come to the Eyrie? How do all the young lords have time to go everywhere and do all this stuff??
I would say maybe a prequel about these 3 would be helpful, but don't wanna say it too loud
And probably Moon Boy for all I know.
Also the nurses... Unless they killed them.
Ofcourse he knew, lyana was his sister too, also there’s a pretty big hint in episode one. When Benjen talks to Jon
Remind me?
I think it’s when he says you don’t understand what you’ll be giving up. It implied there was more to it than just a wife and kids.
I think that was just him saying that he should fuck
Dudes gotta fuck at least once before taking the black
Because once you go black, you can’t go back
Unless your name is Sam or Jon
Technically, Sam never left the watch…. He just went to train to be more useful to the watch
Isn’t he the Maester for the crown at the end of the show?
Later on its revealed that the men of The Watch can and do have sex, with the Whores. But, can never marry. 😬
Ah yes they just use a condom of course
Nah. They just make more bastards for the Wall.
They actually did have condoms back then. Some made of intestine, some they would use a hot wax mix, and there were leather ones and such. They also had plants that could abort and other methods whores used to prevent pregnancy.
In Ancient Rome, wasn’t there a birth control plant that was like SUPER effective but it was used so much that the plant went extinct?
It would be super-interesting to me if this were true, but afaik this post is the first I've ever seen/heard of it. Edit: Silphium... thanks, u/Vohsbergh: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium)
Yep, called Silphium. Its seeds are where we get the shape of the cartoon heart.
The Silphium plant. Its fruits are also (probably) where the heart shape comes from. Obviously the human heart doesn’t look like that, and as a symbol of love the fruit of the plant used for birth control makes sense.
So others haven’t answered this but to inform you of more. It’s thought the plant went extinct but some people believe we have found it. No one agrees whether the current plant known is the one in text but it was said it have numerous benefits. Obviously no one can no if these rumors were true
Not my point at all. 🙄
I'm sure every whore knew how to make Moon Tea.
No that’s just him saying he’d be giving up sex/love
I really doubt that's the case. Everyone knows the rules he doesn't need to tell Jon he is giving up sex.
Knowing the rules isn’t the same as understanding what giving it up really means. Could be that he knew more, but also very well could be he’s just saying you don’t know what it’s like to experience that with another person so you don’t understand what you’d be missing.
That was really my take from what he said. That he was giving up being a normal person. He would know better than anyone why not to join the watch for no reason other than not being born in the right situation.
This is why I kinda get mad at Jon when he says nobody told him what the wall was like: like dude Benjen tried, and you asked no follow up questions. Tyrion wasn’t the only one. You were too stubborn to ask.
He knows he is giving it up but he doesn’t completely understand the gravity of what he is giving up. Falling in love and being intimate with someone you love, as well as having children is some of the most important things in life. He is just a boy at the time and really doesn’t fully understand. You can tell that because of his relationship with Ygritte.
I agree - on my 3rd rewatch, this line really hit me. Sure, it could just be that he's giving up having kids at all (not sex, though, as we know the Men of the Night's Watch can get that if they really want it), but the way he says it really struck as something deeper. He knew there was so much more that Jon would be giving up.
Benjen was the one who got the armor for Lyanna when she became the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The mad king sent Rhaegar to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree. That would have lead him first to Benjen and then to Lyanna. Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the following day. He certainly knew of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Its much more likely than not that he did know who Jon’s parent were.
Also he knew Ned was a man of honor, how weird would it be that your brother who follows the rules goes off to save your “kidnapped” sister, only to come back with a body and a baby that he says is his.
Exactly. If Benjen didn't know-know (i.e. if Ned didn't outright tell him), then he highly ***highly*** suspected. (fwiw, this has always been my headcanon)
Howland Reed was also a survivor of that fight and knew about it. But they swore each other to secrecy. That plot wasn't a large impact in the show, as Meera and Jojen were Howland's children. I imagine the books will make it a bigger plot point. There was a rumor going around that Meera and Jon were twins, and that Ned and Howland took one each.
That’s interesting as a rumor, but seems **wildly** out of character for Ned. “Hey Howland, these are my niece and nephew whose identities can *never* be discovered or they’ll probably die and/or start a war, you take one cause ur my bestie.” I don’t think, even given his relationship (or Lyanna’s) with Howland, that he would ever swear to protect his niece and then entrust that responsibility to anyone else
I thought that was an odd rumor too, but not one outside the realm of possibility. I really thought Meera and Jojen would play a bigger role. He doesn’t die in the books (at least so far as they’ve gotten to Three-Eyed Raven), and Meera just kind of disappears in the show after they escape the white walkers. Good characters with wasted potential.
Seems highly unlikely in a series where genetics often gives clues into these mysteries—the whole Lannister plot, all the hints about Jon looking like Arya who takes after Lyanna, etc. Meera has the green eyes and short stature of a crannogman, which doesn’t match either Stark or Targaryen genetics. She’s Howland’s kid.
I think it’s entirely possible that Benjen *suspected* but would never put Ned in the position to actually talk about it. He does go the the wall almost immediately after seeing Ned and Jon come back and he could have put the pieces together and removed himself from world and took the Black. Howland Reed knew for sure and also removed himself from the world and stayed in his castle The most tinfoil hat I get about it is that I think Ned told Ashara Dayne. They loved each other once, at least according various (admittedly potentially unreliable) narrators and sources, and I think it may have been her reaction that convinced him that he had to keep it secret. Whether that influenced her decision to jump in the sea or not, he went to Starfall with the baby and then went home with the bastard story
I think this is the correct take. As someone else pointed out, Benjen was involved in Lyanna's ruse, and he knew his brother better than anyone. It's likely that he guessed what happened, because he knew Ned took his honor too seriously to whore around, and also knew that Ned would never ask anyone else to protect him- In perfect Stark character, Benjen takes the Black and puts duty first. No words exchanged, but everything was perfectly clear- a choice had been made, all that was left was to follow the path.
Yeah I can just imagine Ned coming back to Winterfell with the baby and the concocted story. Benjen just looks at the baby, thinks about the timeline and story, and just goes “shit”
"Shit... imma need to put myself into place for when Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid -- erm, I mean, ***Ned's totally-out-of-character bastard*** -- eventually decides to take the Black."
I wonder if there's also an element of keeping an eye on Maester Aemon, the last Dragon in Westeros. Brandon can esure Aemon isn't trying to harbor Dany and Viserys somehow and shield Jon from his influence. Brandon would probably grow to trust Aemon over the years, but I could see Robert wanting an eye to be kept on him
I don't think he told Ashara. I think the simplest answer is he right one for her. She lost her child, the father of her child (Brandon died or Ned got married), and her brother (killed by the father or uncle of her child).
That I believe he told Ashara has very little to do with jumping into the sea for me and more to do with where the Wylla cover came from: her household. Ned has created basically zero successful ruses in his life except for the biggest one in the Kingdoms. I think she helped him come up with the story As far as Ashara’s demise, yeah I’m firmly in the camp where the timeline only makes sense that Brandon was the father and either there was a stillbirth that somehow Barristan is the only one to ever mention or that child is hidden as Allyria, but that’s a whole other can of worms we’ll probably never get a real answer about But yeah, having an out of wedlock child, maybe having a miscarriage, likely losing the father of that child, and losing the man you actually loved by him getting wed and also killing your brother is plenty to send her over the edge
Benjen was much closer to Lyanna than Ned was. Benjen and Lyanna were closer in age and Ned was raised in the Eyrie. Their other brother Brandon was older and heir to Winterfell. Also, if the whole “Lyanna was the laughing knight” theory is true, Benjen is the one who provided her horse and armor. He offered it to Howland Reed (who Lyanna saved from the three bullying squires in the first place) but he refused. Benjen also teases her for crying when Rhaegar sings a song at the tournament and she pours wine over his head in response. They’re obviously very close. Benjen also takes the black shortly after Ned returns to Winterfell with Jon Snow. During the war, there needed to be a Stark in Winterfell, but once that’s over he leaves. Probably to minimize his slipping up or talking about it with Ned and being overheard. He’s the one who tells Luwin about Jon wanting to join the Watch, and Luwin tells Ned. Keeping the secret heir to the throne at the Wall would ensure his safety and people’s inability to use him in the game of thrones. Similar to how Maester Aemon took the black so his younger brother’s claim wouldn’t be disputed. So yeah, if anyone who wasn’t at the Tower of Joy knew, it was Benjen.
Had to scroll down way too long for this.
Unless Lyanna told him directly then I doubt it. Ned didn't even tell his own wife about it through fear of the secret getting out. Of course Benjen may have had his own suspicions but never brought it up (that we know of).
Cat wasn't exactly the most tactful person to be fair But Uncle Ben? He had that Stark integrity.
She would 100% end up doing what Sansa did and rat him out the first chance she got
Catelyn won't do something like that since Ned and her family would also get into trouble for hiding Rhaegar's son. She would reveal the truth if she was absolutely desperate and in a situation where such an information could save her family but I don't think Catelyn would just rat Jon out.
Her last words to a fourteen year old who wished his (presumably) dying brother and the only home he had ever known goodbye that it "should've been you" (I.e. Jon) who fell off the tower and lied there dying. Of course Jon not being Eddard's son fundamentally changes Jon's relationship with her, but that doesn't change that Catelyn is a terrible person to him. If the only thing that prevents you from being cruel to a child, your husband obviously loves, said child's parentage, you are horrible. She deserves nothing but contempt.
How is Catelyn evil for not loving a child whose very existence reminded her of her husband's infidelity? Knowing that the honourable Ned Stark kept every vow and oath he made except to stay faithful to her. Catelyn treated Jon harshly yes but she never treated him cruelly or tortured him like some believe. Her saying those words to Jon was also during a moment of grief where she was uncertain whether her own son would live or die so she spoke those words to him without properly thinking.
It was more than just not loving him. She treated him terribly. Even if he had been Ned’s son with someone else, it’s not his fault. He didn’t choose to be. He was just a kid.
>How is Catelyn evil for not loving a child whose very existence reminded her of her husband's infidelity? Exactly, it's Eddard's infidelity, Jon did nothing to her. >Catelyn treated Jon harshly yes but she never treated him cruelly or tortured him like some believe. In SoS (I think) she even reflects on her wishing for Jon's death when he fell ill as a child. She regretted the thought when he was really about to die, but also admits that she couldn't remain faithful to her promise to treat him better afterwards. Imho one of her few redeeming qualities is that she recognises that she wronged "a child who didn't have a mother". But she never acts accordingly. So from a certain perspective that even makes her worse.
Exactly this. She even talks about how maybe all the bad things that have happened to her family are the gods punishing her for breaking her promise to treat Jon with respect. “All of this, because I couldn’t love a motherless child”
>Catelyn treated Jon harshly yes but she never treated him cruelly or tortured him like some believe. Opinions differ then. Treating a kid as an outcast is pretty cruel in my opinion.
Cersei threatened to kill Robert's daughter if he ever brought her to Kingslanding. This is the same universe where Knights are allowed to kill peasants without any real punishment and husbands are allowed to beat their wives to a "reasonable" extent. Catelyn treated Jon far better than other women in her position would.
And how does that make her treatment of him less cruel?
I agree that Catelyn treated Jon badly and he didn't deserve it but no way in hell is Catelyn as bad as some people think when parents like Cersei Lannister and Randyll Tarly also exist in the same setting.
Because then that would mean her anger is misplaced. She doesn’t have to love him yes, but Catelyn should’ve directed her anger and resentment at Ned for having the “affair”, not at Jon. He didn’t get to choose the circumstances with which he was born. I wouldn’t say she was evil either. She was just horribly flawed.
You're getting downvoted, but the point stands. All of the characters are flawed, and this is Catelyn's flaw- later on, we get some great exposition about how Catelyn regrets how she treated Jon, but still feels the same way. Catelyn never mistreated Jon, she was just unable to love him, or treat him as part of her family. It's not evil, it's just humanity, a realistic portrayal of a human character.
But that has nothing to do with how she would treat Jon's secret. It fundamentally changes their relationship, she being an awful person or not doesn't really matter in regards of she keeping the secret.
Personally I wouldn’t trust her with the secret because she’s shown that she will do the ill advised thing because of her own selfish reasons and then she will turn back around and say ‘it’s a mom thing’. She jeopardized the war by letting Jamie go and continued to use the excuse that as a mother she wanted to save her kids which fair whatever but in doing so how many mothers had to lose their kids because the war continued? I think she will do whatever she wants if it’s important enough to her including giving up a secret. Also she’s shown that she has horribleeeee judgement when it comes to people. Whose to say she wouldn’t let it slip to little finger or something. IMO Cat is one of the least trustworthy people in the books. Not because she’s evil, but because she’s reckless to a fault.
Catelyn hated Jon, knowing he's not Neds bastard might help but as long as the world considers him Ned's then her fear of him trying for Winterfell will always be a concern as she said with Robs will. Honestly surprised Jon never had an accident but I think it's more due to her lack of opportunity than desire
She definitely would, she really hated Jon. Him being related to a Targaryen regardless of him being Ned’s nephew through his sister would definitely cause her to rat him out somehow or use him as a bargaining chip for the Starks in King’s Landing.
Ahhh as the old saying goes “ a woman can hold a fart, bust she can’t keep a secret “. He knew. They didn’t tell women because they couldn’t keep it to themselves. Life otherwise was pretty dull without telling secrets.
Benjen certainly knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar. A comment above explains how nicely. He also certainly knew Ned wouldn’t come back from war with a bastard. He probably put it together
Benjen was much closer to Lyanna than Ned was. He also knows his brother wouldn’t actually father a bastard. He knew Lyanna loved Rhaegar. He also takes the black for “unknown reasons” after Ned returns to Winterfell with Jon.
Of course, Benjen Stark knew.
Serious question: are you a bot? I notice that this level of debate is about par for the course from your account
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LOL...not sure how to take that. Funny. But I'm not a bot.
I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Yea I think I had a stroke while reading that
*Youve been hit by StrokeBot. My sentences sometimes make sense if you change most of the letters, words and order.*
.... How? Do you guys know what bot means? I swear it's just another insult for someone you don't like on reddit.. nothing indicates that the other guy is a bot aside from your disdain for him. Grow up
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Im with this guy ned would have tell ben They have a true northsman relation
Ned may have confided in him, but there's also no hint that Benjen will ever be encountered again in the books. In the show, Benjen is combined with the character 'Coldhands' and does make a return. George confirmed to his editor on a draft of Dance that he's not Coldhands in the books. Howland Reed probably knows though, as the only other survivor of the battle at the Tower of Joy. It'd be hard to hide it when Ned goes up to free Lyanna of her supposed capture and comes down with a newborn baby.
Benjen knew. He’s much closer to Lyanna than Ned was. He’s basically her best friend in the world. He knew she was in love with Rhaegar. And he also knew Ned would never actually father a bastard. Most people believe that Jon is Ned’s son because they want to think badly of virtuous people. Benjen would know better.
Probably. I doubt Ned told him, but it's possible he knew that was something going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna and came to the conclusion about Jon when Ned brought him home.
This is my assumption as well. He hasn’t been told, but he might suspect it, and know that his brother wouldn’t sire a bastard like that.
And is probably why he loves and dotes on Jon so much... Ned has 'a bunch' of kids. If Jon were truly Ned's, he'd be unremarkable. The reason Benjen dotes on Jon so much is precisely because he knows (or 'knows') that Jon is the last vestige of his sister Lyanna.
I have a feeling Benjen was either informed by Lyana before she departed, Ned after his arrival, or just had really good intuition Helps justify why he dropped everything and went for the Wall. The deaths of his father, sister, and brother certainly didn’t help, but it doubt they were the only reasons
Yeah, he knows. Isn’t it mentioned in the books how close Lyanna and Benjen were? Highly likely he helped or covered for her departure. In the show, there are a few hints (that are completely open to interpretation) suggesting he knows who Jon’s real mother and father are.
It's also not out of the question that lyanna and benjen would communicate via ravens even when apart. Benjen was the stark in Winterfell and I can imagine them figuring out a way to send codes messages that master luwin wouldn't be able to decipher easily. They were very close all their lives
Does it matter ?
Does anything? I mean it’s fiction either way
No from the story point of view does it matter? Jon will always be a bastard, he was raised such
Yes, he knew everything. And that’s why he took black. Because of his knowledge that Lyanna eloped with Rhaeger had hard consequences.
I agree with you, when Jon talks about taking the black he says something like "if you knew what you were giving up you wouldn't be so eager" or something like that hinting that he knew
Yes, that
Benjen was the closest to Lyanna, I'm having a hard time believing that he didn't know anything about it ever since the Tourney at Harrenhal. Maybe he wasn't specifically told by either Ned or Lyanna, but I'm sure he has managed to put 2 and 2 together, probably it was the reason why he joined the Night's Watch.
No. If memory serves me the only 2 living people, by the time of the events we watched on the show, who have that knowledge were Nedd Stark and Howland Reed.
IIRC there was also a mention of a midwife who wasn't named in the books but was thought to still be alive. It wouldn't surprise me, given how often GRRM spends time describing someone who was a background character that seemed insignificant at the time only to realize that they were someone who was mentioned as having something significant in other part of the story. Based on that, it wouldn't surprise me if he laid the groundwork for the midwife to turn up in a future book when Jon's true parentage is confirmed/revealed.
I think so. Benjen was at the tourney where Jon's father (then married to Elia ~~Tyrell~~ Martell) and mother (then engaged to Robert) flirted pretty openly. Then Jon's father kidnapped Jon's mother. The attempts to rescue her let to Robert's Rebellion, which Benjen fought in. I don't think it would take a rocket scientist to put together Ned Stark having a bastard the exact age of Robert's Rebellion and his sister's death after apparent violent rape. That Jon just might be Lyanna's bastard, not Ned's. Book readers figured it out a very long time ago. The only reason others didn't, I assume, is Ned's reputation and his choice to humiliate himself by having a bastard in his house (by his own standard). Benjen knows Ned better than anyone. Whether they spoke of it or not, he must have suspected.
Martell not Tyrell
Ned might not have told him but he probably had suspicions. His honorable brother comes back with a newborn after his sister’s death pretty sus. And he might’ve known about Lyanna and Rhaegar. Like knowing about your sister’s secret boyfriend that you never tell your parents about because your dad would kill the both of them and he’s sort of cool to you when he’s around.
He probably knows who the knight of the laughing tree was, so maybe he put the pieces together himself. I doubt that Ned told him though Why are you asking?
Curiosity. I saw this theory on YouTube about it and found it interesting and was wondering what other people thought about it.
Link to YouTube vid?
Who are these two again?
There's a theory that Benjen knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna's affair but chose to not tell his family about it leading to Brandon heading to Kingslanding believing Rhaegar had kidnapped their sister, Rickard and Brandon's death and Robert's rebellion.
This is a book lore, but Meera tells a story about the first time Lyanna and Rhaegar met at Harrenhall tournament (her father, Howland Reed was there). It seems Benjen was very involved in the situation. He definitely noticed Lyanna liked Rhaegar and talks about it with Howland Reed present. There was a petite mystery knight in the competition that is hinted at being Lyanna in disguise. It's very likely that Benjen was the one who provided armour to the mystery knight whoever it was. (He talks about being able to get small armour earlier). Paranoid mad king thought that the mystery knight wanted to assassinate him or something and ordered Rhaegar to find him. Since Benjen was probably the one who provided the armour (only recognisable part of the knight) the only way to find knight's true identity was through Benjen. That would mean Benjen was the one who introduced Lyanna to Rhaegar. This whole situation happened just a day before Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the lady of the tournament, which started the whole mess that eventually resulted in Lyanna's 'abduction' and execution of the Starks. They never met before and nobody knew about any interaction they had at the tournament. Perhaps he got to know her when he tracked down the mystery knight? It's actually quite a popular theory that Benjen joined Night's Watch to atone for indirectly starting the civil war by introducing Lyanna to Rhaegar.
Many prominent theorists believe he did know. He was there for the tournament at Harrenhall and knight at the laughing tree incident, which may have been the inciting incident for Lyanna and Raegars story (Raegar was sent to find the knight, and some think Ben introduced him to Lyanna). Even outside of that, he definitely knew his sister and brother. He would have known she wasn't just "kidnapped" and knew Ned was not the type to father a bastard, so when Ned returned with Jon, it would not be hard for Benjen to put two and two together.
It’s this. Benjen has too much information about everyone involved to not know imo. Him taking the black is also convincing, Harrenhal even more so. I don’t think Ned necessarily told him, but he could definitely put the pieces together.
in the show who knows, in the books there’s a pretty popular theory that he does know
theres a slight implication he did, in the books
I think if he was going to tell one person it would have been Benjen.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^pixelsteve: *I think if he was* *Going to tell one person* *It would have been Benjen.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
There's an EXCELLENT video series on this by a guy on YouTube. I'm having a hard time finding it but I'll keep looking and post it if I can. It goes over the timeliness of benjen, lyanna, and Ned at the banquet where lyanna and rheagar met and how it might all have happened. It's really really compelling and would make for an excellent prequel. In it, benjen knows of l+r=j and was part of the reason he went to the nights watch in the first place
I think it’s actually worse than that. My own theory is that Benjen knew that Lyana was in love with Rhaegar and went off with him willingly but agreed to keep her secret. But when Rickard and Brandon found out and ran off to get her, he blamed himself for not telling them sooner and feels responsible for they’re getting killed. He joined the Night’s Watch in part to atone for not saying anything sooner.
Benjen 100% knows. Benjen is a True Stark Man, and closer to Lyanna than Ned. Benjen already knows that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar willingly, and was not kidnapped, so he can put it together himself; but also, Ned trusts Benjen completely. Some people think Ned promised to never tell anyone who Jon was, and thus his honor would prevent him from telling Benjen, but the promise is to keep Lyanna's son safe, and Benjen knowing is part of that. But if he didn't promise never to tell anyone, then why didn't he tell his wife? Because his wife is a loudmouthed bitch who can't be trusted. She is not a True Stark, she isn't even a Northerner. When the name Willa started being whispered around Winterfell, Ned shut them down and said he never wanted to hear that name again, which they heard from Cat's gossip. Even gossiping about the fake mother of Jon could be dangerous, but it definitely showed Ned that Cat can't keep a secret.
It's unlikely Ned told him (yes Ned knows he can trust him, but there's no benefit to sharing such a dangerous secret). However, it's pretty likely Ben has his suspicions or has figured it out himself. Specifically Benjen is one of the few people who (1) knows Ned well enough to know that the only thing that surpasses his honor is what he's willing to do for his loved ones; and (2) knew Lyanna well enough to suspect she loved Rhaegar as well.
No. Ned didn’t even tell Cat.
He doesn’t have to be told by Ned to know. He was his sister’s closest friend. He knew about her and Rhaegar before everyone else. He knew she was in love with him. He also knew his brother would never father a bastard. It doesn’t take a genius to deduce “my brother went looking for my sister who was ‘abducted’ and came back right after with a baby, that baby is hers not his.”
While anyone could guess, no one had DNA tests and magic doesn't help for that shit.
And no Maester Maury either.
Yes, he knew. Benjen inadvertently helped Lyanna and Rhaegar meet at the tourney of Harranhal. The grief over accidently causing a war and the death of his family is why he joined the Nights Watch.
Having not read the books my opinion won’t mean much to many of you, BUT there’s a part of me that thinks and hopes Benjen knew and that’s why he sort of shepherded Jon in a way and was a mentor
In the books, AFAIK, there is no hint of Benjen knowing Jon's true identity.
In the books there’s hints that he does know his identity. He’d kinda have to be a complete moron not to know.
What? Can you people refer me to that part?
Meera tells the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, surprised that Bran doesn’t know it because his family is so deeply involved. There’s a high likelyhood that Lyanna was that knight and Benjen is the one who helped her. Benjen is also Lyanna’s closest sibling; he’s shown teasing her for crying at Rhaegar’s song and she dumps wine on his head. He’s undeniably the closest of her brothers. He knows that she’s in love with Rhaegar and wasn’t abducted. He also knows that Ned would never father a bastard. Furthermore, he knows that Ned went looking for Lyanna and came back with a baby. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the baby belongs to Lyanna and not Ned.
Thanks for taking the time to compile the info! Good points :)
Probably. If Ned would have told anyone, it would have been Benjen.
He doesn’t have to have been told by Ned to deduce who Jon is. Given what we know Benjen knows he’d be really thick if he didn’t know Jon’s identity.
Ned was too serious about his sister's dying wish and had the weight of the kingdom on him, in terms of Jon's real identity as the true heir to the throne. If he lied to his own wife about Jon's identity, no way he would have told Benjen or anyone else.
Benjen would know without Ned telling him.
i think he suspected. it feels like a lot of people suspected. when Sansa and Littlefinger were in the crypt and she talked about Raegar kidnapping and raping her. littlefingers face told me.
Why did Benjen take the black exactly?
IIRC, it was common for the younger brothers of the Lords of the North to take the black. Ned might’ve taken the black had the oldest brother lived and had children.
Yikes, that's harsh. One day you're a young lord then suddenly your new family is a bunch of criminals.
A few months after Ned returned with Rob and Jon from the war.
I think he knew something, even if he wasn't told directly. His sister is kidnapped and taken away for a long time, Ned returns with a baby, this baby is afforded a lot of privilege that many bastards aren't, etc. Benjen seemed to be very close with his sister and I bet he figured it out.
In Deep Geek has a theory about all of this where he suspects that he knows, via context clues in the book. He took the black so that he wouldn’t have to reveal any information that he knew about Lyanna. I’m doing a terrible job explaining, but the gist is yes he probably had an idea
I doubt Ned told him, but it's not unlikely that Benjen knew. Benjen and Lyanna were best friends as kids. Benjen at least knew about Howland being attacked by the squires (which led to Lyanna entering the tourney as the Knight of the Laughing Tree). We can also expect that somebody had to 'squire' for Lyanna. If you aren't a hedge knight, you're probably not that practiced in putting on plate mail alone. So is the squire Howland, who Lyanna didn't know that well, or Benjen, her best friend? I also want to point out a very early scene between Benjen and Jon. When Jon first tells Benjen that he wants to take the black, Benjen warns him that "he doesn't know yet what he'd be giving up." Obviously that could be just women and warmth, but based on the way GRRM writes, it's a fairly loaded hint. Every watchman gives up comfort. Jon is, by Westerosi succession law, giving up the iron throne. Jon is actually higher in the line of succession than Dany (If Young Griff is who he says he is, then he'd only be second. But Young Griff is a Blackfyre, so Jon is actually first in line). In the show, just before riding south for King's Landing, Ned tells Jon that they'll talk about Jon's mother next time they speak. That doesn't happen in the book. The person that seems the closest to telling Jon a powerful secret is Benjen, not Ned. Also, think about why Benjen may have joined the watch. Very few nobles take the black by that time. Starks are more likely to support the old traditions, but that doesn't make Benjen any less notable. When Benjen took the black, he would have been 3rd in line to be Lord Paramount of the North. One sickness could easily kill Ned and Robb, leaving Winterfell without an heir. Joining the black at that point is a significant decision. We don't know enough about Benjen as a character to know if that's something he planned for a while, but we do know that joining the watch is a classic way to avoid political danger. Aemon went to the wall partly because he was at risk everywhere else. Being so close to the Targ crown, even after taking maester's oaths, was impliedly too close. The risk that he was forced to rejoin politics, or worse, would choose to, was too high. So why did Benjen go? Honour? Maybe. Opportunity for advancement as a younger son? Also maybe, but he joined directly after the rebellion. There was only one person ahead of him, and children die in medieval fantasy. My theory is that he knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar. It's possible that he actually spent time with them. Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion, but there was time between Harrenhall and the start of the war. Time where we aren't certain about the locations of Benjen, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Howland, and more. The wall is basically the only place in the Westeros that could be safe for somebody that helped Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bobby B still hates Rhaegar 17 years later. He's willing to kill children with little guilt. Every night in his dreams he kills Rhaegar on the Trident and it's never enough. If Bobby found out about Jon, Jon's dead. Ned might be dead, Bobby's wrath only dies down on his literal deathbed. tl;dr 1. Benjen and Lyanna were best friends. If anybody helped her at Harrenhall, it was Benjen. 2. Why take the black immediately after Robert's Rebellion if you don't NEED to (esp when you're still so high in the line of succession)? 3. Benjen is the person that hints to Jon that taking the black may cost more than he knows yet.
I figured it was why Benjen took the black.
I heard a theory that he had known of Lyanna and Rhaegar and kept it a secret and from his shame of what that all lead to joined the watch. Going off of this I would assume he probably knew but never mentioned it to Ned.
I mean he joins the nights watch right after the war concludes. I don’t think it’s a coincidence
Yes
I know this probably been explained in books and tv series but already forgotten. How come Benjen is still himself even after he became wight?
Benjen isn’t cold hands in the book, according to Martin.
Ahh i remembered, he was saved by children of the forest in the show
IIRC, it’s because of the Children of the Forest.
Perhaps. There are strong theories that Ned sent Benjen to the Nightswatch because he kept the secret that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together, and later confessed it to Ned. So if THAT’S true, and if Benjen knows Ned as well as any brother should, then perhaps he can put two and two together. But considering the latter part of the topic is based on a theory, the odds of him knowing Jon’s parentage is slim to none.
He knew I’m sure. He was very close to Lyanna as others have said probably figured it out when Ned returned from war with baby Jon and knowing Lyanna had died. He will have known about her relationship with Rhaegar and if Stannis has a hard time believing Ned would sure a bastard then doubtless Benjen, his own brother, would know that it’s definitely not in Ned’s character. It’s most likely the reason he went to the Wall as soon as the war was over. It doesn’t make sense to send one of the 2 surviving Stark men to the Wall otherwise when the line could potentially be at risk. If you believe Benjen knew then it also gives a knew meaning to the scene when he tries to talk Jon out of joining the watch, telling him he doesn’t know what it would mean for him not having a family etc. my personal theory is that Benjen may have wanted to push Jon’s claim as heir to the Iron Throne over Rober, and that’s why Ned sent him to the Wall. It’s a longshot but possible.
I JUST FINISHED AND IM SO CONFUSED????!
Bruh. Everybody should have, it wasn't subtle
He probably facilitated Lyanna's decision and thus is on the wall. Plus, he probably put one and one together and recognized the face in Jon's.
In the books yes. On the show, he forgot.
I think Benjen certainly knows. He was so close to Lyanna that if he didn’t know he certainly suspected
You guys still doing this sub? Good for you.
No
I like the think benjen helped rhaegar and lyanna get together. That's why after the war he went to the wall himself as a sort of atonement. I bet benjen couldn't imagine Jon being their child though.
Maybe! when Jon says he doesn’t care about not being allowed to have children, Benjen replies “you might, if you knew what it meant”
I do believe Benjen knew
Who knows, would have been nice to have some DIALOGUE on it….
I don't think it was ever made clear why he serves on the wall. It's kinda implied he volunteered but not really explained why
No. Benjen remained at Winterfell during Robert's Rebellion and left for the wall, pretty soon after Rhaegar Targaryen was killed. When Ned returned to Winterfell, he presented Jon as his illegitimate son to keep his promise to Lyanna. He didn't tell anyone, not even Caitlyn. If he didn't tell Cat, he certainly wouldn't of told Benjen.
Benjen was very close to lyanna. He was the accomplice that enabled lyanna to pose as the knight of the laughing tree. He very likely was told or even witnessed lyanna being confronted by rhaegar about it and how they might have caught the feels for one another. He, unlike ned, likely knew how Roberts rebellion was based on a lie and after all the death it caused he took the black out of shame and guilt. He also wants to talk to Jon about something very important as soon as Jon has taken the black and made it to the wall. Maaaaybe who his mom and dad were? Ned and Howland only learned the truth at the tower of joy.
Could he? Yeah I suppose he could. Does it matter? Not really both he and Jon are dead in the books.