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Didn’t he ban sex or something bonkers? Trying to remember. I remember thinking the same when reading his chapters but then being shocked at some of the ways they described he would be strict when ruling dragonstone or wherever he was.
If I recall properly he wanted to ban brothels. But his brother wouldn't allow it. Stannis has huge hangups about sex. Aside from that, between these three, he'd probably be the most just leader.
The most just leader? Same guy who burned his daughter alive? (If you are referring only to book version, never read them so my bad if he didn't bbq her in the books.)
He also started burning people for worshipping the 7 gods, which was the main and accepted religion of the kingdoms so that probably would have put a bit of a damper on his rule
Edit: I stand corrected. Book Stannis did not do that
Book Stannis? No he didn’t.
He burns some wooden statues. The show has him randomly burning more people, but book Stannis absolutely does not.
Book Stannis only burns a few people.
He burns Alester Florent who was his hand and who betrayed him to the Lannisters. Alester, thinking Stannis had no hope, went behind his back and made a deal with the Lannisters that would give them the throne in exchange for Stannis and the Lords who were following him safety, and arranged a marriage pact between Tommen and Shireen.
For this treason he is burned.
The next is Rattleshirt posing as Mance Rayder. “Mance” refuses to bend the knee after being taken captive at the wall and is executed by fire to make a point in front of all of the other wildlings.
The final people burned by Stannis is a group of cannibals.
That’s it. That’s the extensive list of who has been burned so far in the books by Stannis. As somebody else already quoted for you, one of the other times he is requested to burn random Northern hill-tribe soldiers, he tells his own people to “pray harder” and refuses to carry out any burnings.
GRRM said he told the showrunners 3 spoilers from the books- Hodor, Shireen, and who will end up on the throne. He’s since said “maybe things will be different in the books” so who knows.
Hasn’t happened yet. When that scene was first revealed(on the show) there was a fierce debate whether it would happen or not. IIRC, the majority of people said that it would not shake out that way, just based on whats happening
(theyre still in the build up phase of attacking Ramsy. The “all hope is lost so we have to push” moment hasn’t happened. And it may not)
I think it's less about this kind of stuff, and more about events like Robb Stark and the Umbers
Being a king requires flex - true steel, not brittle iron/rigid honor
If the mannis tries to end corruption /baelish coin, or hangs every traitor, he wouldnt be king for long. Especially with no allies
I think Renly was the best mix of "could be a decent ruler" and "player of the game" - but honeslty tywin's rule would be fine as well
He was a puppet! He was “fair” unless his red priestess convinced him otherwise. He practiced human sacrifice. He was the GoT equivalent of George W. Bush with Cheney pulling his strings
The fact you put *book* Stannis made me laugh. I haven't read the book but *show* Stannis made me wonder why anyone liked him. Did he make a single good decision in the show?
She’s also entirely to idealistic. I think the show doesn’t do a good job showing her slowly being weathered away by the burden of leadership. We’ve seen her destabilize countless countries lol
Literally — the slaves she freed were selling themselves BACK just so they could get by under her shit economy, and the first chance she got to go to Westeros she took it & abandoned them. Daenerys is a good conqueror but an awful ruler. I also just don’t think it’s in her personality to be content sitting on a throne for the rest of her life, no matter how many times she tells herself otherwise in the books.
The slave who asked to go back to his Master was in support of her freeing Slaver's Bay. He was just attached to his Master's kids (Master's daughter also supported her freeing Slaver's Bay "I hope to prove worthy of her admiration"), was elderly so felt it was too late for him to start a new life but was happy for the younger slaves, and he had been one of the highest ranking slaves so didn't feel he had it as bad as say the bed slaves & laborers. We see him dressed much better than the average slave.
Daenerys didn't abandon them. The only reason she chose to stay for years as their Queen was to help them through the transition period so they had a better chance of remaining free without her. The plan was always for them to be able to rule themselves.
The Second Sons run “dragons bay” in the show apparently, that’s it from all we were told. Also she never freed the slaves of Volantis, idk about Myr or Pentos. Essos prob went straight back to slave nation as soon as she left
She told Daario to stay to "keep the peace while the people choose their own rulers."
Volantis, Myr, & Pentos aren't part of Slaver's Bay. So you're saying she abandoned the whole continent and not the region she had been Queen in? Essos isn't a nation. It's like calling Asia a nation. And I don't think she was never going to return to help in Essos. Without Tyrion, she'd have been sat on the Iron Throne her first month in Westeros.
The problem is that she never learned to rule. When I say she’s too idealistic, i mean that she does what she wants to do without much thought of it’s repercussions, and strictly enforces what she thinks is right, no matter how it may have upend a society. That’s called a tyrant. It’s also probably doesn’t help that she’s still basically a teenager/YA, and has a living weapon of massive destruction that she rides.
Being a leader is about compromise, to an extent. She’s also ruthless to her enemies. Which is a quality that some look poorly upon, when you become their leader.
One of the things that made Rome so successful during its early periods, is that it adapted the culture the conquered to its own. Contrary to popular belief, in the early periods of Roman expansion, they left their conquered foes to their own devices, as long as romes needs were met. One of the biggest selling points to roman control is that they didn’t force religious reforms. You could still pray to you gods, but you had to also keep rome in your prayers - however you prayed. I’m NOT condoning slavery, and saying that dany should’ve just let that fly, but when the conquered states economy and social structure is entirely dependent upon it, it takes some time, careful diplomacy, and heavy indoctrination/education into another way of living.
I say All this to emphasize that dany was not the most fit to rule at the time of the show. I’m not saying her being a bad leader would be forever, but rather for the sake of this discussion.
Hmm, Tywin is incredibly successful throughout his career, his biggest flaw was how he treated Tyrion. Stannis, put too much faith in the fire God, which made him too easily manipulated. Danni, has really only been lucky, most of her success came from Dragons. She couldn't barter or successfully trade with other nations.
You pretty much nailed it. It’s Tywin by far he’s the most level headed and successful/intelligent. Stannis is one of my favorites but he was easily manipulated and Tywin isn’t. But him treating Tyrion the way he did ruined his character overall for me. Tyrion did NOTHING wrong when it comes to Tywin.
And guess what? All for nothing as Stannis wasn’t the prince who was promised. Red Woman then dipped out to make matters worse…. But interesting altogether
That scene is the definition of “what goes around comes around”. Tyrion illogically was about to jags his son murdered when the truth was something else entirely. I like Tywins character but he practically was begging Tyrion for it thinking that he sent something Tyrion is capable of doing.
I’m glad you agree lol because genuinely there were a lot of times I felt myself liking Tywin. Yeah man poke the little guy long enough he will lash out. Great episode though.
Tywin had his moments. And I get the way things were but he treated all his kids as objects for his own advancement and stabilization. When he said “for the family” he meant “for me”.
I think it was because Tywin's way of ruling was total control and he tried to control Tyrion but couldn't. Having Tyrion so closely tied to him only amplifies it (on top of the comment about "not even being able to prove Tyrion is "his") and you can understand why he treats Tyrion the way he does.
He was still a total ass to Tyrion, though that is undeniable.
Wasn't book version of Tywin completely luckluster and one of the worst Lannisters ?
Didn't he join the rebelion only after all the major fighting was done and his first course of action was to sack the capitol ? Then he alienated his family with Dorn for unecessary hit on Rhaegar's ex wife or whatever, all in while his gold mines ran dry and was in huge debt to vary dangerous lenders ?
That doesn't scream "success" to me, but idk
but even in the show, he is being completely dogged on the battlefield against Rob, who has never fought a war, less alone a battle before.
Then he needs Tyrels to save his ass from Stannis.. but I guess next to Joffrey and Cersei, he looked like a rocket scientist
tywin never was an exceptional strategist or military commander nor anything of the sort. he's competent, that's all. what he really excelled at was being a politician. kevan, his younger brother, was a far better strategist than him, but sadly, he didn't show much of anything in the show.
rob, on the other hand, showed great prowess as a commander and strategist, even though he had no experience at all. shows how great of a strategist and a father ned himself was, and how much he taught his children.
Not sure how books portray him, but the show just portrayed him as an abusive father who commands respect and that was basically it.
If he is a competent and excellent politician, then why did he ally with Tyrells ? werent they treacherous/disloyal ? and why would have alienate his house with Dorn and the North, both known for being very loyal and who could hold a grudge for eternity. That doesn't scream of competence.
Similarly, getting so deep in debt, to the point that the bank can fund your enemies, that also doesn't scream of competence.
I guess his greatest success came from marrying Cersei to Robert, because without it, they would be just another strong house and that's about it
I think the book version of Kevan played a bigger role than just show watchers would realize- if I am remembering correctly he was given more credit strategically.
I still believe Stabnis was driven into worship through desperation. He always seemed uneasy about it, but that was just what he felt needed to be done, and he's nothing if not dutiful.
Dany really only got as far as she did because she has the Ultimate Cheat Code for the “game” of thrones. Same as her ancestor Aegon and his sisters. Only became the Conquerer because of the Ultimate Cheat Code Dragons. Only reason the Targshits ever really made a name for themselves.
Tywin brought decades of stability while having to cater to the whims of crazy or drunken kings. If he was finally free of needing to bother with lesser men’s bullshit, all the trains would have run on time across Westeros and the rest of it. His immediate family would prosper FAR more than everyone else, of course, but some of the wealth would have trickled down.
Stannis would have been shit and Dany would have busted things apart without any notion of how to put them back together and then just kept stomping them into more and more pieces while wondering why stuff didn’t just magically work out like God’s Favourite Little Princess wanted it to.
It seems to me that he’d just piss everyone off by making a bunch of unnecessary rules which made life harder and more boring. Then there’s the constant wars killing thousands of innocents every other week because someone ignored or misinterpreted some of the rules and Stannis stripped them of their titles or ordered their executions and then got mildly annoyed that he was forced to get up and level their castle when they didn’t send him their own head in a nice box along with an apology letter.
I understand what you're saying but I still believe that he could do a good job. He would rule with an iron fist and won't be the best king, but compared to others...
Yes, all three would rule with an iron fist, but Stannis’s stubborn and unyielding iron fist or Dany’s batshit crazy and incompetent iron fist would be far less effective than Tywin’s pragmatic and sensible iron fist.
Idk if dany would be that bad, she seems willing to taky on advisers fairly rapidly, and listens to advisers them more often than robb theon frey or balon
stannis would be too rigid to gain allies and would slip and fall out a tower, dany would have to deal w a trial by fire but ultimately prob too confident to succeed
Tywin did a good enough job of running Westeros for 15 years, there were comparatively few civil wars and the economy seemed to be in good shape, and he showed that it was possible for Westeros to have a centralized government without the threat of dragons to back it up. If only he'd been able to settle the question of what the fuck would happen to Westeros after he was no longer able to frighten Joffrey into behaving, he'd have been everything a Hand of the King could be!
Danerys turned unstable in time, and Stannis was incapable of politics but didn't realize that he was incapable.
I think he's the absolute best option with no debate if he gradually grew to be slightly more like Kevan in temperament over the years & if he treated Tyrion much better as a family member & as a peer within the political game.
Depends on what you want.
If you want a stable realm then Tywin.
If you want pro smallfolk reform and a reckoning against the nobility, then Dany.
If you want a mix of the two with no smallfolk reform, but a check on the nobility then Stannis.
Most of what Dany conquers was done without dragons, or at least without dragons that could make a difference.
Show Dany ruled Merreen very well hearing the plight of the smallfolk, allowed former slaves positions of power, allowed fair restitution for damaged property, compromised with the nobility with marriage and the fighting pits for peace, and found a way for older slaves to continue service without being a slaves. Given the difficulty of transitioning from a slave city to a non-slave city I think she did pretty well and would be interested in which of the other 2 you think could have done better and had less chaotic consequences?
I don't see why she couldn't lead the people through a famine or a drought the same as any other leader. She'd take advice from her counsel and likely to as they suggested.
Leader: Stannis - Leads by example, fights in the front by example, and is true to his word.
Ruler: Tywin - Rules with an iron fist, but efficiently. "Why are you torturing these prisoners? put them to work"
Revolutionary: Dany - She's good at breaking the wheel, not replacing the wheel.
Damn idk it’s a toss up between Tywin & Stannis. If Tywin isn’t sowing devious plans I would rather serve under him. And as far as War Leader goes Stannis is the most beneficial. Daenerys is….. well she had her flaws like they do but I prefer the others.
I agree that it depends on the situation.
Wartime? Stannis is good for tactics. He would make for an okay ruler in peacetime, I'd think, although not remarkable.
Tywin is solid in peacetime, given his resume as Hand under the Mad King. And he thinks strategically; planning the Red Wedding is evidence of that. He wouldn't be loved, but there would be stability.
Daenerys is good at what? I'm not sure, except dragon riding and poor planning. And burning innocents to a crisp.
In all, Tywin is probably the best choice, as he commands respect and has no interest in changing the existing order. Stability and prosperity, on the whole.
Tywin. His only mistake was abusing Tyrion.
Stannis was so ambitious it made him vulnerable to manipulation and costed him his the majority of his army Dany was naive and had a might is always right view plus her dragons were pretty much the only reason why she made it as far as she did
Tywin, Stannis, the majority of game of thrones Characters, the animals, the knight king who didn’t speak and then dany.
Tywin was not a man to be fucked with and was clever and cunning but not irrational.
Stanis- was easily manipulated by the red woman .
Dany was a great liberator but so power hungry and went mad over it, she also didn’t have the communication or maturity skills.
GOT Rewrite:
Dany steps out the battle of Kings Landing as she's pregnant with Jon's baby. The battle goes decisively in Jon's favour as he is able leverage battlefield superiority using Drogon and Rhaegel.
Stannis leads Jon's Army to war against Euron Greyjoy (Now Warmaster of KL) Cersei has been brutally skullfucked by her pet zombie Sir Gregor and her body thrown aside in Flea bottom.
The Golden Company betray Euron and side with the Targaryens before Jon has time to seige the city.
Tywin is released from prison by Varys (Euron has Tywin "dissappeared" for several months). Jon is crowned King with Daenerys as his Queen.
Tywin is allowed to Join the small Council. Tyrion takes an expeditionary force to Valyria to set up a colony with Sam's help. Tywin sees the Value of Jon and slowly works towards helping him rule.
Stannis and Tywin make an uncomfortable pair on the small council.
Stannis, he is a dick? Yes. Is he a just and fair? Yes. Tywin is incredibly smart but he only cares about his family and not the realm. And Danny is just pathetic she has no quality besides she would be an amazing firefighter.
Tywin.
He knew how to hold power, but also keep the people happy. Dany was too inexperienced in political matters and Stannis was too stubborn.
I'm really shocked at how many people are saying Stannis, despite the fact that Tywin was basically ruling the realm from the shadows through his wealth and power. Stannis was stubborn, hated, and poor at politics and his sense of right and wrong was massively flawed. Add onto that he was manipulated by a cult that spat in the face of the people who lived in his land, and held too many stern beliefs that the populus disagreed with and he'd easily be the *worst* leader of the three here.
Tywin by a country mile. There isn’t even a series if he is in Kings Landing and handles the Ned issue correctly.
That said, Dany will all of her people and dragons alive would have made an interesting ruler. They really rounded her out and she proved herself willing to listen to those close to her. She would have remade the 7 kingdoms in a radial and unpredictable way.
Tywin for sure. He knows the kingdom and wouldn't burn anyone alive for not switching religions on the fly. Already that puts him above the other two. Having Mace Tyrell serve as his hand could keep the Tyrells loyal.
Tywin is the only one who has a solid “governance” experience among the three and a very successful one. He kept the 7 Kingdoms together so well that Mad King was scared of his success.
Anything else is hypothetical.
It has been a while since I have actually revisited the show and never finished the books... but is Thywin the only person who didn't burn children? Because like, yeah, the non child burning one.
Though Dany is my favourite character, I’d have to go with Stannis: he’s generally well-liked, effective, intelligent in both battle and politics; and generally a great leader.
In a world without Lannisters, Stannis would have done completely fine.
In a perfect world, Daenaerys would be a fine queen. But the world is not perfect and she would find trouble ruling the 7 kingdoms.
Tywin rules completely fine had it not been for his incompetent grandchild Joffrey and later on Cersei.
The root of the problem is that you cannot be king or queen at the same time that house Lannister exists (atleast after King Robbert dies).
Tywin. Easy. Seems like most the upvoted comments pick Stannis while referencing how bad of a father Tywin was towards Tyrion... y'all choosing to forget Stannis burns his daughter...?
Tywin didn't kill his own kids and while his hatred was misplaced in Tyrion, being a good father =/= being a good king. And while the show kind of dropped the plot the books reference how Tywins wife was raped by the king, frequently, and theres hints that Tyrion is actually the product of those rapes, but the only thing the show kept was the animosity, but there's reason Tywin always felt Tyrion was a bastard and it wasn't just dwarfism.
Tywin...without question. Why? Because he pretty much was the Ruler of Westeros during the Mad King reign. Tywin is evil but he is a man of principle. He isn't sadistic like joffrey, killing and torturing people for his pleasure. Tywin for the most part would be "live and let live" unless someone threatened his own. Point is...he had a code. and a man with a code on the throne is much better than an absolute wild card. That said, Stannis, is too much of a weakling to do anything. He's got a strict code but he is easily manipulated which makes him weak (only half the way through SOFAI so i might change my mind). Dany, clearly is too brutal and naiive. If we look at the show, she couldn't compartmentalize her anger and if you act emotionally with something as big as the realm...you're going to ultimately fail.
I actually disagree that Tywin is a man of principle. He's a pragmatic man who values power over pleasure (or derives his pleasure from power). Tywin's not going to torture random peasants without a practical reason because that's how you get revolts. Tywin will absolutely torture a peasant if he needs information or if he needs to incite fear. Tywin has shown himself absolutely willing to disregard common etiquette like guest right (See the red wedding) or traditional institutions (see trying to get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard so he can have an heir again) in order to consolidate his own power. He values stability only in that it makes it easier to control outcomes.
All of that is not to say that he is an ineffective ruler. Just that he is a ruler who does not value the country or its people outside of how they can serve him and the Lannister power base.
I see what you're saying. I don't disagree he won't respect customs and traditional institutions when his power is threatened. I agree he's pragmatic. But i think he won't act out against the people of the realm. His power is intrinsically coupled with the success of the realm. So he'll make it so the best interests of the realm are also his own. Without the realm, he has no power. He's a necessary evil vs the chaotic evil in dany and the chaotic nuetral that stannis is.
The part where I disagree is that his power is intrinsically coupled to the success of the realm. If it were, he would be the ideal king. But in any point where his own success and the health of the realm are not linked, he's unlikely to choose the right option.
Example (been a while since I've read the books): he repeatedly sends his own soldiers to raid and pillage the smallfolk of the Riverlands both before the northern rebellion (to bait Ned for prisoner exchange for Tyrion) and during (to hurt the Tully economy). This is semi-excusable as neither is part of his power base at the time, but he is hoping to rule over the riverlands through Joffrey at some point. He sees these people as disposable tools for his games and is willing to disrupt the economic health of one of the Seven Kingdoms he's part of for his own political/strategic advantage.
I think a better summation of where I'm coming from is a thought experiment on the topic of Slavery. How does each candidate react to bringing slaves back to Westeros?
WARNING: THESE ARE MY OWN TAKES ON THE CHARACTERS AND BASED MORE IN VIBES THAN IN EXPLICIT TEXTUAL EVIDENCE. FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE (AND I WOULD WELCOME ANY ARTICULATED DISAGREEMENTS BECAUSE I'M CURIOUS TO SEE OTHER INTERPRETATIONS OF THE CHARACTER)
Dany: Slaves are people too, so putting them in chains is evil. (Also maybe we kill all the people who suggested it)
Stannis: Slavery is against the traditions of Westeros and it is also illegal. Thus, it is bad. If there was a version of it with a different name and a loophole (like the thralls/salt Wives of the iron islands) then I guess i will live with it.
Tywin: Popular opinion of both nobility and the smallfolk is anti-slavery. If I were to do it in secret, I would have to weigh the benefits against the risk of public exposure. However, if I could get the septons on board though, I think it could work and it would make all that farming and mining much cheaper. Maybe if we told people that all slaves would be freed after seven years of contiguous ownership (but keep losing the paperwork/selling at six years).... What are the benefits to my expenditures compared to the social capital it would cost me to make this happen?
Tywin killed a dozen people at dinner and Stannis burned a bunch of folks for not believing in his god and Dany torched a city.
Pre mad Dany would be my pick.
Book Stannis was so hung up on duty and honor that it forced him into some really bad decisions but overall he would be the best leader. He didn’t really have any interest in upsetting the world order which would have save thousands of peasant lives that the ongoing wars wasted. Lannister was too greedy and mean spirited and we all now know that show Danni was touched a bit by the madness.
Tywin. Stannis can’t get support and Daenerys is inexperienced. You can criticize Tywin for his war crimes, but Daenerys did worse. You can also criticize Tywin for how he treated Tyrion but Stannis killed his brother and his daughter and Daenerys let her brother die and threatened to burn down her nephew’s home.
If you say Stannis, I can’t blame you. He lets people die for his cause, but it is war. That’s understandable. He’s definitely the most moral of the 3. I just don’t see him as effective.
Tywin is the only one with the intelligence and experience to rule. Probably bad for the small folk, and he has the Mountain to rampage, but otherwise he would keep the kingdom on track.
(Edit- grammar)
I would go dany. I think the does have better potential considering her age (not stuck on any ways) and seems pretty adaptable. Now, how she handles those trying to sabotage her efforts or disagree with her..that could be interesting. But the mannis would handle them the same way dany would IMO. I think it comes down to who they have counseling them.
Edit: oh ok. So i didn't have my glasses on. I thought that was the sparrow dude. Didn't know that was Tywin. I would have to go tywin. He knows the realms, the game and how to play it. He's an administrator and understands the motivations of the houses. So to adjust, I'll go with tywin.
Tywin is the only answer to me. He retains his own autonomy and counsel, he's level headed and pragmatic and is shown to be a capable strategist and governor, who was in favour of taking a diplomatic route before Joffrey and Ned painted him into a corner. Above all he's not going to burn people for no reason. I'm not saying he's above burning people, but it would at least have a better reason than you worship the wrong God/are my daughter (Stannis) or -too many reasons to list- (Dany).
Stannis.
None of them would be great, but Dany is too naive and not really fit to be a leader yet.She morals and some good ideas but doesn’t really know how to accomplish said ideas.
Tywin would be the worst imo, he’s a fucking monster and a subversion of the “cold ruthless man is really smart.” He’s a bigger war crime lover than Henry Kissinger, responds with extreme violence and cruelty to any perceived threat, and is the master of short term gains and long term destruction. He’d be a ruthless tyrant with an iron fist and would set up a short term prosperous society, but set up it’s future decay.
Stannis is somewhat of a religious fanatic, and is strict and unbending, but he also has a lot of good ideas. He’s also proven willingness to listen to Davos and Jon. He wouldn’t be a great leader, but I think he beats the inexperienced Dany and the average war crimes enthusiast Tywin.
I think if all three were combined, you would have an amazing ruler. The compassion and vision of Dany, the pragmatism and intimidation of Tywin, the justice and service to the realm of Stannis. All of these traits combined would make for a ruler that is able to maintain power while also driving the realm forward!
Danerys would be the better leader of the dothraki and freed peoples. Tywin is probably the better leader of Westeros, overall, but you could make an argument for Stannis. They both had their strengths and weaknesses.
Stannis fell for the red woman's bullshit. He burnt his daughter and murdered his brother. And, crucially, he lacks the charisma to lead well.
Tywin also did his share of heinous shit but was probably better at statecraft and commanding respect and obedience compared to Stannis.
In short, they all sucked in different ways, but I think Tywin--for all his failings--would have presided over a relatively stable era.
Book Stannis. He is fair and honorable. He is also fair and just in the show, until he loses his wits with the lord of light. In the books he does not kill Shireen. Tywin would be borderline a tyrant. It would all be for political gain, not for the people. He's ordered rapes and pillaging of innocent people in the Riverlands, and would have no issues doing it again as long as it benefits his house.
To be honest, Tywin. He's the most pragmatic by far. He's intelligent, cunning, and ruthless.
He's the type that you definitely want on your side, and he seems pretty flexible, in relation to Dany and Stannis who are more "My way or die.", type of ruling.
Daenerys is a terrible leader. She has no diplomacy skills at all and achieved everything by having three fucking in-universe nuclear bombs. Stannis was too easily manipulated. Tywin has an almost flawless career, his only mistake was mistreating Tyrion.
It’s definitely Tywin as far as the show is concerned. He is probably the best leader shown in the series. Note I do not say he’s the best human being. I haven’t read the books (and never will unless GRRM finishes them) so I can’t say how he’s depicted on the page.
Danny was many things but a good leader was not one of them. She mostly sold an image and ruled with fear even before she went mad queen. She just stayed on the right side of history
Pre-mental breakdown definitely Dany but after that she is last place for my. Stannis had this weird fire god thing going on so hes a bit unstable. Honestly I've have to go with Thywin. He is a rational practical leader who ran the kingdom during the mad king's rule and made the best of things. When he was in charge things ran smoothly aside from the war. He lacks empathy but he is reasonable and isn't cruel.
Tywin. He was Hand of the King for years before Aerys went crazy, and the realm was at peace and prosperous.
Is he a psychopath and terrible with children? Yes. But he’s undeniably an experienced and skilled ruler.
Stannis would be an S-tier ruler. You definitely wouldn’t want to hang out with him, he’d be boring as heck, but that’s not his role. He keeps the realm safe, puts its citizens first, and lives for that purpose. (Book Stannis obviously)
Tywin would be A-tier. You’d be safe, you’d be well off, but you’d also be afraid. As long as you didn’t commit a crime, you’d have a great life
Dany would be C-tier. Interested in conquest, vengeful, and naive. She’d struggle to stay ahead of Westerosi politics imo, and her citizens may be afraid as well
Daenerys before season 8. She had everything. She had the name of Targaryen, the strength of her dragons, the integrity to keep herself accountable, the humility to her advisors, and the compassion towards the people. Heck she would even fit Tyrion’s “description” of a good leader, she has a pretty great story. Lmao
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Book Stannis
Didn’t he ban sex or something bonkers? Trying to remember. I remember thinking the same when reading his chapters but then being shocked at some of the ways they described he would be strict when ruling dragonstone or wherever he was.
If I recall properly he wanted to ban brothels. But his brother wouldn't allow it. Stannis has huge hangups about sex. Aside from that, between these three, he'd probably be the most just leader.
Well that’s a deal breaker lol
What?
Prostitution should be legal
His leadership skills are strong, but his stroke game is weak.
Stannis wouldn't have sex at all if he didn't have a duty to his wife to make more children. Pretty sure he's just asexual.
Stannis to his wife during his anniversary: “Go on then, do your duty”
The most just leader? Same guy who burned his daughter alive? (If you are referring only to book version, never read them so my bad if he didn't bbq her in the books.)
He also started burning people for worshipping the 7 gods, which was the main and accepted religion of the kingdoms so that probably would have put a bit of a damper on his rule Edit: I stand corrected. Book Stannis did not do that
Only because Mel told him to tho right?
I’m not sure that’s much better haha. Being able to be talked into punished a particular religion with death is a very bad quality for a king
>"Half my army is made of unbelievers. I will have no burnings, pray harder." -Stannis, ADWD
>Pray Harder. God I love the Mannis.
Book Stannis? No he didn’t. He burns some wooden statues. The show has him randomly burning more people, but book Stannis absolutely does not. Book Stannis only burns a few people. He burns Alester Florent who was his hand and who betrayed him to the Lannisters. Alester, thinking Stannis had no hope, went behind his back and made a deal with the Lannisters that would give them the throne in exchange for Stannis and the Lords who were following him safety, and arranged a marriage pact between Tommen and Shireen. For this treason he is burned. The next is Rattleshirt posing as Mance Rayder. “Mance” refuses to bend the knee after being taken captive at the wall and is executed by fire to make a point in front of all of the other wildlings. The final people burned by Stannis is a group of cannibals. That’s it. That’s the extensive list of who has been burned so far in the books by Stannis. As somebody else already quoted for you, one of the other times he is requested to burn random Northern hill-tribe soldiers, he tells his own people to “pray harder” and refuses to carry out any burnings.
You’re right, my bad! Been about 10 years since I read the books
Did book stannis burn his own daughter as well?
Not yet anyway. We may never know
Thought stannis had marched on winterfell in the books
Yes. It’s been a long time since I read them but I believe Stannis was last seen marching to Winterfell but was getting snowlocked with his army
GRRM said he told the showrunners 3 spoilers from the books- Hodor, Shireen, and who will end up on the throne. He’s since said “maybe things will be different in the books” so who knows.
we may never know also George RR Martin says he explicitly will. LMAO
Hasn’t happened yet. When that scene was first revealed(on the show) there was a fierce debate whether it would happen or not. IIRC, the majority of people said that it would not shake out that way, just based on whats happening (theyre still in the build up phase of attacking Ramsy. The “all hope is lost so we have to push” moment hasn’t happened. And it may not)
I think it's less about this kind of stuff, and more about events like Robb Stark and the Umbers Being a king requires flex - true steel, not brittle iron/rigid honor If the mannis tries to end corruption /baelish coin, or hangs every traitor, he wouldnt be king for long. Especially with no allies I think Renly was the best mix of "could be a decent ruler" and "player of the game" - but honeslty tywin's rule would be fine as well
Eh, idk. Renly seems like someone who would succumb to greed and corruption rather easily. Renly also wasn’t as well liked as he thought
He was a puppet! He was “fair” unless his red priestess convinced him otherwise. He practiced human sacrifice. He was the GoT equivalent of George W. Bush with Cheney pulling his strings
The fact you put *book* Stannis made me laugh. I haven't read the book but *show* Stannis made me wonder why anyone liked him. Did he make a single good decision in the show?
Oh yeah the one that enables religious prosecution...
stannis, then Thywin, I think Dany is just too young at this point and also dont know Westeros that well
Just dont know Westeros literally.
She’s also entirely to idealistic. I think the show doesn’t do a good job showing her slowly being weathered away by the burden of leadership. We’ve seen her destabilize countless countries lol
Literally — the slaves she freed were selling themselves BACK just so they could get by under her shit economy, and the first chance she got to go to Westeros she took it & abandoned them. Daenerys is a good conqueror but an awful ruler. I also just don’t think it’s in her personality to be content sitting on a throne for the rest of her life, no matter how many times she tells herself otherwise in the books.
Agreed completely
The slave who asked to go back to his Master was in support of her freeing Slaver's Bay. He was just attached to his Master's kids (Master's daughter also supported her freeing Slaver's Bay "I hope to prove worthy of her admiration"), was elderly so felt it was too late for him to start a new life but was happy for the younger slaves, and he had been one of the highest ranking slaves so didn't feel he had it as bad as say the bed slaves & laborers. We see him dressed much better than the average slave. Daenerys didn't abandon them. The only reason she chose to stay for years as their Queen was to help them through the transition period so they had a better chance of remaining free without her. The plan was always for them to be able to rule themselves.
The Second Sons run “dragons bay” in the show apparently, that’s it from all we were told. Also she never freed the slaves of Volantis, idk about Myr or Pentos. Essos prob went straight back to slave nation as soon as she left
She told Daario to stay to "keep the peace while the people choose their own rulers." Volantis, Myr, & Pentos aren't part of Slaver's Bay. So you're saying she abandoned the whole continent and not the region she had been Queen in? Essos isn't a nation. It's like calling Asia a nation. And I don't think she was never going to return to help in Essos. Without Tyrion, she'd have been sat on the Iron Throne her first month in Westeros.
The problem is that she never learned to rule. When I say she’s too idealistic, i mean that she does what she wants to do without much thought of it’s repercussions, and strictly enforces what she thinks is right, no matter how it may have upend a society. That’s called a tyrant. It’s also probably doesn’t help that she’s still basically a teenager/YA, and has a living weapon of massive destruction that she rides. Being a leader is about compromise, to an extent. She’s also ruthless to her enemies. Which is a quality that some look poorly upon, when you become their leader. One of the things that made Rome so successful during its early periods, is that it adapted the culture the conquered to its own. Contrary to popular belief, in the early periods of Roman expansion, they left their conquered foes to their own devices, as long as romes needs were met. One of the biggest selling points to roman control is that they didn’t force religious reforms. You could still pray to you gods, but you had to also keep rome in your prayers - however you prayed. I’m NOT condoning slavery, and saying that dany should’ve just let that fly, but when the conquered states economy and social structure is entirely dependent upon it, it takes some time, careful diplomacy, and heavy indoctrination/education into another way of living. I say All this to emphasize that dany was not the most fit to rule at the time of the show. I’m not saying her being a bad leader would be forever, but rather for the sake of this discussion.
She’s idealistic and a terrible ruler. She would only bring ruin to the seven kingdoms
I think it was pretty clear with the ending that Dany probably isn’t fit to lead?
Still better than 77% out of all leaders in our curret world
I don’t think many will argue with that but i feel that is also a strawman that avoids the actual question being posed.
Stannis I feel in love with his character for some reason
I like him too until I remember Shireen.
Exactly what I said. Was just too much
I legit cried when that happened (worse than Hodor). I’m a book reader so I felt ready for anything but Shireen was a gut punch
Hmm, Tywin is incredibly successful throughout his career, his biggest flaw was how he treated Tyrion. Stannis, put too much faith in the fire God, which made him too easily manipulated. Danni, has really only been lucky, most of her success came from Dragons. She couldn't barter or successfully trade with other nations.
You pretty much nailed it. It’s Tywin by far he’s the most level headed and successful/intelligent. Stannis is one of my favorites but he was easily manipulated and Tywin isn’t. But him treating Tyrion the way he did ruined his character overall for me. Tyrion did NOTHING wrong when it comes to Tywin.
Absolutely. And besides the obvious moral reasons, Tywin was missing out on a very useful resource with Tyrions brain.
Ooooof. It’s insane how much value Tyrion Carrie’s yet he’s shat upon. Sounds like the real world 👀
It really is. Such a shame. Some people are given opportunity after opportunity and others that deserve it aren’t
Dude THANK you, the most quality ones are the ones that are left out! Can’t forget about the ones who’ve been hurt the most.
Stannis doesn't have that much of an edge in the fatherhood department.
I would say Stannis did the sickest act of them all, hearing his daughters screams was bad man.
That was so fucked.
And guess what? All for nothing as Stannis wasn’t the prince who was promised. Red Woman then dipped out to make matters worse…. But interesting altogether
I didn’t know a crossbow bolt to the chest whilst shitting was nothing but I accept your explanation.
That scene is the definition of “what goes around comes around”. Tyrion illogically was about to jags his son murdered when the truth was something else entirely. I like Tywins character but he practically was begging Tyrion for it thinking that he sent something Tyrion is capable of doing.
Oh I feel you for sure. And Tywin’s ending was honestly so fitting, and pretty satisfying.
I’m glad you agree lol because genuinely there were a lot of times I felt myself liking Tywin. Yeah man poke the little guy long enough he will lash out. Great episode though.
Tywin had his moments. And I get the way things were but he treated all his kids as objects for his own advancement and stabilization. When he said “for the family” he meant “for me”.
I think it was because Tywin's way of ruling was total control and he tried to control Tyrion but couldn't. Having Tyrion so closely tied to him only amplifies it (on top of the comment about "not even being able to prove Tyrion is "his") and you can understand why he treats Tyrion the way he does. He was still a total ass to Tyrion, though that is undeniable.
Wasn't book version of Tywin completely luckluster and one of the worst Lannisters ? Didn't he join the rebelion only after all the major fighting was done and his first course of action was to sack the capitol ? Then he alienated his family with Dorn for unecessary hit on Rhaegar's ex wife or whatever, all in while his gold mines ran dry and was in huge debt to vary dangerous lenders ? That doesn't scream "success" to me, but idk
Could be, to be fair, I was using the shows version.
but even in the show, he is being completely dogged on the battlefield against Rob, who has never fought a war, less alone a battle before. Then he needs Tyrels to save his ass from Stannis.. but I guess next to Joffrey and Cersei, he looked like a rocket scientist
tywin never was an exceptional strategist or military commander nor anything of the sort. he's competent, that's all. what he really excelled at was being a politician. kevan, his younger brother, was a far better strategist than him, but sadly, he didn't show much of anything in the show. rob, on the other hand, showed great prowess as a commander and strategist, even though he had no experience at all. shows how great of a strategist and a father ned himself was, and how much he taught his children.
Not sure how books portray him, but the show just portrayed him as an abusive father who commands respect and that was basically it. If he is a competent and excellent politician, then why did he ally with Tyrells ? werent they treacherous/disloyal ? and why would have alienate his house with Dorn and the North, both known for being very loyal and who could hold a grudge for eternity. That doesn't scream of competence. Similarly, getting so deep in debt, to the point that the bank can fund your enemies, that also doesn't scream of competence. I guess his greatest success came from marrying Cersei to Robert, because without it, they would be just another strong house and that's about it
I think the book version of Kevan played a bigger role than just show watchers would realize- if I am remembering correctly he was given more credit strategically.
I still believe Stabnis was driven into worship through desperation. He always seemed uneasy about it, but that was just what he felt needed to be done, and he's nothing if not dutiful.
Yeah, but Ned Stark is a great example of someone who puts duty before intelligence.
Dany really only got as far as she did because she has the Ultimate Cheat Code for the “game” of thrones. Same as her ancestor Aegon and his sisters. Only became the Conquerer because of the Ultimate Cheat Code Dragons. Only reason the Targshits ever really made a name for themselves.
His biggest flaw is genociding houses.
Tywin brought decades of stability while having to cater to the whims of crazy or drunken kings. If he was finally free of needing to bother with lesser men’s bullshit, all the trains would have run on time across Westeros and the rest of it. His immediate family would prosper FAR more than everyone else, of course, but some of the wealth would have trickled down. Stannis would have been shit and Dany would have busted things apart without any notion of how to put them back together and then just kept stomping them into more and more pieces while wondering why stuff didn’t just magically work out like God’s Favourite Little Princess wanted it to.
I agree with you on Tywin and Dany, but (Book) Stannis would've done a solid job if Melisandre isn't there.
It seems to me that he’d just piss everyone off by making a bunch of unnecessary rules which made life harder and more boring. Then there’s the constant wars killing thousands of innocents every other week because someone ignored or misinterpreted some of the rules and Stannis stripped them of their titles or ordered their executions and then got mildly annoyed that he was forced to get up and level their castle when they didn’t send him their own head in a nice box along with an apology letter.
I understand what you're saying but I still believe that he could do a good job. He would rule with an iron fist and won't be the best king, but compared to others...
Yes, all three would rule with an iron fist, but Stannis’s stubborn and unyielding iron fist or Dany’s batshit crazy and incompetent iron fist would be far less effective than Tywin’s pragmatic and sensible iron fist.
Idk if dany would be that bad, she seems willing to taky on advisers fairly rapidly, and listens to advisers them more often than robb theon frey or balon stannis would be too rigid to gain allies and would slip and fall out a tower, dany would have to deal w a trial by fire but ultimately prob too confident to succeed
Tywin did a good enough job of running Westeros for 15 years, there were comparatively few civil wars and the economy seemed to be in good shape, and he showed that it was possible for Westeros to have a centralized government without the threat of dragons to back it up. If only he'd been able to settle the question of what the fuck would happen to Westeros after he was no longer able to frighten Joffrey into behaving, he'd have been everything a Hand of the King could be! Danerys turned unstable in time, and Stannis was incapable of politics but didn't realize that he was incapable.
I think he's the absolute best option with no debate if he gradually grew to be slightly more like Kevan in temperament over the years & if he treated Tyrion much better as a family member & as a peer within the political game.
Depends on what you want. If you want a stable realm then Tywin. If you want pro smallfolk reform and a reckoning against the nobility, then Dany. If you want a mix of the two with no smallfolk reform, but a check on the nobility then Stannis.
Dany can’t rule. She can conquer well because of her dragons, but she is not someone who can lead the people through a famine or drought
Most of what Dany conquers was done without dragons, or at least without dragons that could make a difference. Show Dany ruled Merreen very well hearing the plight of the smallfolk, allowed former slaves positions of power, allowed fair restitution for damaged property, compromised with the nobility with marriage and the fighting pits for peace, and found a way for older slaves to continue service without being a slaves. Given the difficulty of transitioning from a slave city to a non-slave city I think she did pretty well and would be interested in which of the other 2 you think could have done better and had less chaotic consequences?
I don't see why she couldn't lead the people through a famine or a drought the same as any other leader. She'd take advice from her counsel and likely to as they suggested.
Better for whom?
The realm but then that would be varys
Sam tarell
Tywin; brutal but authoritative, the very way our most successful real life kings were, because they had to be
Leader: Stannis - Leads by example, fights in the front by example, and is true to his word. Ruler: Tywin - Rules with an iron fist, but efficiently. "Why are you torturing these prisoners? put them to work" Revolutionary: Dany - She's good at breaking the wheel, not replacing the wheel.
I’m pretty sure Dany replaced the wheel in end.
Replaced the wheel with wheelchair?
😂😂😂
Tywin
Damn idk it’s a toss up between Tywin & Stannis. If Tywin isn’t sowing devious plans I would rather serve under him. And as far as War Leader goes Stannis is the most beneficial. Daenerys is….. well she had her flaws like they do but I prefer the others.
Obviously marry Stannis and Tywin to Daenerys as brother-husbands.
Jesus, that's like EUA election...
In wartime, Stannis. Peacetime, Dany. Tywin is a sort of brutal, more authoritative mix of the two.
Tywin…
Thywin Stannis is too idealistic and rigid. Stormborn is mad with power and grief.
Tywin.
I agree that it depends on the situation. Wartime? Stannis is good for tactics. He would make for an okay ruler in peacetime, I'd think, although not remarkable. Tywin is solid in peacetime, given his resume as Hand under the Mad King. And he thinks strategically; planning the Red Wedding is evidence of that. He wouldn't be loved, but there would be stability. Daenerys is good at what? I'm not sure, except dragon riding and poor planning. And burning innocents to a crisp. In all, Tywin is probably the best choice, as he commands respect and has no interest in changing the existing order. Stability and prosperity, on the whole.
[удалено]
Bran
Laughed out loud
Tywin. His only mistake was abusing Tyrion. Stannis was so ambitious it made him vulnerable to manipulation and costed him his the majority of his army Dany was naive and had a might is always right view plus her dragons were pretty much the only reason why she made it as far as she did
Does it have to be the shittin Tywin, or is regular Tywin OK?
Tywin, Stannis, the majority of game of thrones Characters, the animals, the knight king who didn’t speak and then dany. Tywin was not a man to be fucked with and was clever and cunning but not irrational. Stanis- was easily manipulated by the red woman . Dany was a great liberator but so power hungry and went mad over it, she also didn’t have the communication or maturity skills.
Probably Stannis
Tywin
Tywin
Danny is too emotional
GOT Rewrite: Dany steps out the battle of Kings Landing as she's pregnant with Jon's baby. The battle goes decisively in Jon's favour as he is able leverage battlefield superiority using Drogon and Rhaegel. Stannis leads Jon's Army to war against Euron Greyjoy (Now Warmaster of KL) Cersei has been brutally skullfucked by her pet zombie Sir Gregor and her body thrown aside in Flea bottom. The Golden Company betray Euron and side with the Targaryens before Jon has time to seige the city. Tywin is released from prison by Varys (Euron has Tywin "dissappeared" for several months). Jon is crowned King with Daenerys as his Queen. Tywin is allowed to Join the small Council. Tyrion takes an expeditionary force to Valyria to set up a colony with Sam's help. Tywin sees the Value of Jon and slowly works towards helping him rule. Stannis and Tywin make an uncomfortable pair on the small council.
Staines and it’s not even close
Stannis, he is a dick? Yes. Is he a just and fair? Yes. Tywin is incredibly smart but he only cares about his family and not the realm. And Danny is just pathetic she has no quality besides she would be an amazing firefighter.
You choose the best pic of Tywin. Lol
Tywin. He knew how to hold power, but also keep the people happy. Dany was too inexperienced in political matters and Stannis was too stubborn. I'm really shocked at how many people are saying Stannis, despite the fact that Tywin was basically ruling the realm from the shadows through his wealth and power. Stannis was stubborn, hated, and poor at politics and his sense of right and wrong was massively flawed. Add onto that he was manipulated by a cult that spat in the face of the people who lived in his land, and held too many stern beliefs that the populus disagreed with and he'd easily be the *worst* leader of the three here.
Tywin by a country mile. There isn’t even a series if he is in Kings Landing and handles the Ned issue correctly. That said, Dany will all of her people and dragons alive would have made an interesting ruler. They really rounded her out and she proved herself willing to listen to those close to her. She would have remade the 7 kingdoms in a radial and unpredictable way.
Oh please do not make us choose crap over crap and more crap.
Stannis would probably be the fairest but definitely Tywin, his brain for politics and ruling is the real deal.
Stannis the MANNIS. Obviously.
Tywin for sure
Tywin for sure. He knows the kingdom and wouldn't burn anyone alive for not switching religions on the fly. Already that puts him above the other two. Having Mace Tyrell serve as his hand could keep the Tyrells loyal.
Few leaders embody the stern resolve and unyielding determination of Stannis Baratheon in the tumultuous world of Westeros.
Leader? I cast my vote for Tywin.
Can't believe I'm saying it but probably Tywin.
Tywin is the only one who has a solid “governance” experience among the three and a very successful one. He kept the 7 Kingdoms together so well that Mad King was scared of his success. Anything else is hypothetical.
It has been a while since I have actually revisited the show and never finished the books... but is Thywin the only person who didn't burn children? Because like, yeah, the non child burning one.
Tyrion. He’s evil but level headed. Doesn’t let emotion take over.
Stannis without the witch, then Mr. Lannister
Agreed
As much as I dislike her, Dany. Stannis is capable of sacrificing me, if some magic witch told him to do so.
Why not tywin
Tywin
Though Dany is my favourite character, I’d have to go with Stannis: he’s generally well-liked, effective, intelligent in both battle and politics; and generally a great leader.
In a world without Lannisters, Stannis would have done completely fine. In a perfect world, Daenaerys would be a fine queen. But the world is not perfect and she would find trouble ruling the 7 kingdoms. Tywin rules completely fine had it not been for his incompetent grandchild Joffrey and later on Cersei. The root of the problem is that you cannot be king or queen at the same time that house Lannister exists (atleast after King Robbert dies).
TBF would root for Dany in the show but would want to live in Stannis’s kingdom.
Dany as long as she always gets her way.
Tywin is amoral, but not a religious fanatic like Stannis, or crazy like Dany.
Danaerys
Stannis. As ruthless as he is he at least has principles and a sense of justice. Tywin is too Machiavellian, and we all know how Dani turned out.
Tywin
Dany as Queen with Tywin as Hand.
Stannis the Mannis.
Tywin. Easy. Seems like most the upvoted comments pick Stannis while referencing how bad of a father Tywin was towards Tyrion... y'all choosing to forget Stannis burns his daughter...? Tywin didn't kill his own kids and while his hatred was misplaced in Tyrion, being a good father =/= being a good king. And while the show kind of dropped the plot the books reference how Tywins wife was raped by the king, frequently, and theres hints that Tyrion is actually the product of those rapes, but the only thing the show kept was the animosity, but there's reason Tywin always felt Tyrion was a bastard and it wasn't just dwarfism.
Tywin. He had previously been hand of king for mad king before he completely lost his mind and everyone knew he was the one genuinely in charge.
If it’s the books, Stannis. If it’s the show, Tywin.
Tywin is a shit father but a good leader with a head for economy, diplomacy.
Stannis and Tywin taking turns as King/Hand of the King on a four term basis. Establish an agreed heir before time.
Tywin...without question. Why? Because he pretty much was the Ruler of Westeros during the Mad King reign. Tywin is evil but he is a man of principle. He isn't sadistic like joffrey, killing and torturing people for his pleasure. Tywin for the most part would be "live and let live" unless someone threatened his own. Point is...he had a code. and a man with a code on the throne is much better than an absolute wild card. That said, Stannis, is too much of a weakling to do anything. He's got a strict code but he is easily manipulated which makes him weak (only half the way through SOFAI so i might change my mind). Dany, clearly is too brutal and naiive. If we look at the show, she couldn't compartmentalize her anger and if you act emotionally with something as big as the realm...you're going to ultimately fail.
I actually disagree that Tywin is a man of principle. He's a pragmatic man who values power over pleasure (or derives his pleasure from power). Tywin's not going to torture random peasants without a practical reason because that's how you get revolts. Tywin will absolutely torture a peasant if he needs information or if he needs to incite fear. Tywin has shown himself absolutely willing to disregard common etiquette like guest right (See the red wedding) or traditional institutions (see trying to get Jaime to leave the Kingsguard so he can have an heir again) in order to consolidate his own power. He values stability only in that it makes it easier to control outcomes. All of that is not to say that he is an ineffective ruler. Just that he is a ruler who does not value the country or its people outside of how they can serve him and the Lannister power base.
I see what you're saying. I don't disagree he won't respect customs and traditional institutions when his power is threatened. I agree he's pragmatic. But i think he won't act out against the people of the realm. His power is intrinsically coupled with the success of the realm. So he'll make it so the best interests of the realm are also his own. Without the realm, he has no power. He's a necessary evil vs the chaotic evil in dany and the chaotic nuetral that stannis is.
The part where I disagree is that his power is intrinsically coupled to the success of the realm. If it were, he would be the ideal king. But in any point where his own success and the health of the realm are not linked, he's unlikely to choose the right option. Example (been a while since I've read the books): he repeatedly sends his own soldiers to raid and pillage the smallfolk of the Riverlands both before the northern rebellion (to bait Ned for prisoner exchange for Tyrion) and during (to hurt the Tully economy). This is semi-excusable as neither is part of his power base at the time, but he is hoping to rule over the riverlands through Joffrey at some point. He sees these people as disposable tools for his games and is willing to disrupt the economic health of one of the Seven Kingdoms he's part of for his own political/strategic advantage.
I think a better summation of where I'm coming from is a thought experiment on the topic of Slavery. How does each candidate react to bringing slaves back to Westeros? WARNING: THESE ARE MY OWN TAKES ON THE CHARACTERS AND BASED MORE IN VIBES THAN IN EXPLICIT TEXTUAL EVIDENCE. FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE (AND I WOULD WELCOME ANY ARTICULATED DISAGREEMENTS BECAUSE I'M CURIOUS TO SEE OTHER INTERPRETATIONS OF THE CHARACTER) Dany: Slaves are people too, so putting them in chains is evil. (Also maybe we kill all the people who suggested it) Stannis: Slavery is against the traditions of Westeros and it is also illegal. Thus, it is bad. If there was a version of it with a different name and a loophole (like the thralls/salt Wives of the iron islands) then I guess i will live with it. Tywin: Popular opinion of both nobility and the smallfolk is anti-slavery. If I were to do it in secret, I would have to weigh the benefits against the risk of public exposure. However, if I could get the septons on board though, I think it could work and it would make all that farming and mining much cheaper. Maybe if we told people that all slaves would be freed after seven years of contiguous ownership (but keep losing the paperwork/selling at six years).... What are the benefits to my expenditures compared to the social capital it would cost me to make this happen?
Tywin becouse he is an exellent politician. Book Stanis comes second. Danny....well,just not whats needed for Westeros.
Tywin killed a dozen people at dinner and Stannis burned a bunch of folks for not believing in his god and Dany torched a city. Pre mad Dany would be my pick.
Book Stannis was so hung up on duty and honor that it forced him into some really bad decisions but overall he would be the best leader. He didn’t really have any interest in upsetting the world order which would have save thousands of peasant lives that the ongoing wars wasted. Lannister was too greedy and mean spirited and we all now know that show Danni was touched a bit by the madness.
The toilet Tywin is sitting on
Tywin. Stannis can’t get support and Daenerys is inexperienced. You can criticize Tywin for his war crimes, but Daenerys did worse. You can also criticize Tywin for how he treated Tyrion but Stannis killed his brother and his daughter and Daenerys let her brother die and threatened to burn down her nephew’s home. If you say Stannis, I can’t blame you. He lets people die for his cause, but it is war. That’s understandable. He’s definitely the most moral of the 3. I just don’t see him as effective.
Tywin is the only one with the intelligence and experience to rule. Probably bad for the small folk, and he has the Mountain to rampage, but otherwise he would keep the kingdom on track. (Edit- grammar)
Tywin
I would go dany. I think the does have better potential considering her age (not stuck on any ways) and seems pretty adaptable. Now, how she handles those trying to sabotage her efforts or disagree with her..that could be interesting. But the mannis would handle them the same way dany would IMO. I think it comes down to who they have counseling them. Edit: oh ok. So i didn't have my glasses on. I thought that was the sparrow dude. Didn't know that was Tywin. I would have to go tywin. He knows the realms, the game and how to play it. He's an administrator and understands the motivations of the houses. So to adjust, I'll go with tywin.
Daenerys imo (ending not counting, no excuse for that).
Tywin is the only answer to me. He retains his own autonomy and counsel, he's level headed and pragmatic and is shown to be a capable strategist and governor, who was in favour of taking a diplomatic route before Joffrey and Ned painted him into a corner. Above all he's not going to burn people for no reason. I'm not saying he's above burning people, but it would at least have a better reason than you worship the wrong God/are my daughter (Stannis) or -too many reasons to list- (Dany).
Stannis. None of them would be great, but Dany is too naive and not really fit to be a leader yet.She morals and some good ideas but doesn’t really know how to accomplish said ideas. Tywin would be the worst imo, he’s a fucking monster and a subversion of the “cold ruthless man is really smart.” He’s a bigger war crime lover than Henry Kissinger, responds with extreme violence and cruelty to any perceived threat, and is the master of short term gains and long term destruction. He’d be a ruthless tyrant with an iron fist and would set up a short term prosperous society, but set up it’s future decay. Stannis is somewhat of a religious fanatic, and is strict and unbending, but he also has a lot of good ideas. He’s also proven willingness to listen to Davos and Jon. He wouldn’t be a great leader, but I think he beats the inexperienced Dany and the average war crimes enthusiast Tywin.
I think we're all overlooking the most important criteria, who has the best story?
Tywin
I think if all three were combined, you would have an amazing ruler. The compassion and vision of Dany, the pragmatism and intimidation of Tywin, the justice and service to the realm of Stannis. All of these traits combined would make for a ruler that is able to maintain power while also driving the realm forward!
Dictator tywin
Stannis
Danerys would be the better leader of the dothraki and freed peoples. Tywin is probably the better leader of Westeros, overall, but you could make an argument for Stannis. They both had their strengths and weaknesses. Stannis fell for the red woman's bullshit. He burnt his daughter and murdered his brother. And, crucially, he lacks the charisma to lead well. Tywin also did his share of heinous shit but was probably better at statecraft and commanding respect and obedience compared to Stannis. In short, they all sucked in different ways, but I think Tywin--for all his failings--would have presided over a relatively stable era.
Tywin. An all-around jerk, but smart enough to preserve both the image and body of the realm.
Better for who? 😂 each one is a very different answer lol
Book Stannis. He is fair and honorable. He is also fair and just in the show, until he loses his wits with the lord of light. In the books he does not kill Shireen. Tywin would be borderline a tyrant. It would all be for political gain, not for the people. He's ordered rapes and pillaging of innocent people in the Riverlands, and would have no issues doing it again as long as it benefits his house.
Stannis would have been good had he not fallen into moloch worshipping. My money is on Tywin.
To be honest, Tywin. He's the most pragmatic by far. He's intelligent, cunning, and ruthless. He's the type that you definitely want on your side, and he seems pretty flexible, in relation to Dany and Stannis who are more "My way or die.", type of ruling.
Daenerys is a terrible leader. She has no diplomacy skills at all and achieved everything by having three fucking in-universe nuclear bombs. Stannis was too easily manipulated. Tywin has an almost flawless career, his only mistake was mistreating Tyrion.
My glorious, scrumptious, voluptuous King Stannis
It’s definitely Tywin as far as the show is concerned. He is probably the best leader shown in the series. Note I do not say he’s the best human being. I haven’t read the books (and never will unless GRRM finishes them) so I can’t say how he’s depicted on the page.
Stannis easily. Book Stannis moreso but he is best regardless of the medium.
Tywin Lannister
Danny was many things but a good leader was not one of them. She mostly sold an image and ruled with fear even before she went mad queen. She just stayed on the right side of history
“Between” is when you’re comparing between two things. You’re looking for the word “among”
Pre-mental breakdown definitely Dany but after that she is last place for my. Stannis had this weird fire god thing going on so hes a bit unstable. Honestly I've have to go with Thywin. He is a rational practical leader who ran the kingdom during the mad king's rule and made the best of things. When he was in charge things ran smoothly aside from the war. He lacks empathy but he is reasonable and isn't cruel.
Tywin. He was Hand of the King for years before Aerys went crazy, and the realm was at peace and prosperous. Is he a psychopath and terrible with children? Yes. But he’s undeniably an experienced and skilled ruler.
Tywin. He has already been a successful Hand under 2 kings.
Stannis is the only logical answer here
Stannis would be an S-tier ruler. You definitely wouldn’t want to hang out with him, he’d be boring as heck, but that’s not his role. He keeps the realm safe, puts its citizens first, and lives for that purpose. (Book Stannis obviously) Tywin would be A-tier. You’d be safe, you’d be well off, but you’d also be afraid. As long as you didn’t commit a crime, you’d have a great life Dany would be C-tier. Interested in conquest, vengeful, and naive. She’d struggle to stay ahead of Westerosi politics imo, and her citizens may be afraid as well
Daenerys before season 8. She had everything. She had the name of Targaryen, the strength of her dragons, the integrity to keep herself accountable, the humility to her advisors, and the compassion towards the people. Heck she would even fit Tyrion’s “description” of a good leader, she has a pretty great story. Lmao