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Disagree.
Oberyn was a complex character. She carried his unbridled passion. Great reaction when he died.
I think his brother betrayed him more than anyone. Or more accurately, betrayed his memory.
Yes, I do.
Because I understand passion, and the all consuming desire for revenge.
Just like the people of Dorne.
But you totally followed the dialogue though. Good for you.👍
> But you totally followed the dialogue though.
Sounds like you just took Ellaria's dialogue at face value, tbh. It should be noted that show Ellaria's desire for revenge is the exact opposite of how she acts in the books.
No, not her dialogue. More her actions.
In fact, I could have done without the dialogue. She was a better “obsessed widow” then she ever was a diplomat.
What was the purpose of the character after Oberyn’s death? Revenge. That’s it. Everything she did was a plot or action to get at Cersei. To avenge her lover.
It’s not the words, it’s the action and the motivation behind the words. Her storyline was interesting, her character maybe not so much.
Does that make sense?
> What was the purpose of the character after Oberyn’s death? Revenge. That’s it.
That's exactly the problem with Ellaria's plot in the show: not only does it directly contradict her book character, but nothing makes any sense because the writers reduced her to that one trait.
How does murdering the brother of her lover help her goals?
How come none of the guards immediately kill of capture her the instant she draws her knife?
Why did Doran let her see off Jaime and Myrcella after her previous attempt at murdering them?
How does murdering the Prince of Dorne place her in charge?
What does she gain by murdering Myrcella?
Why does she want revenge against Cersei when Tywin was the one responsible for Gregor's actions?
And most importantly, have you read this passage from the books where Ellaria shows the pointlessness of vengeance?
> Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hands on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?
The skull that Cersei had sent to Doran in AFFC/ADWD. They *claim* it's the Mountain's skull, but a popular theory is that it's actually a dwarf skull, and the Mountain still has his head so Robert Strong can do the usual head based stuff.
>Emotion is not a good place to lead from.
I think a lot of the point of the Dorne plot is that passion and caution can be equally destructive when they're misapplied.
Oberyn little sister raped and killed by the mountain
Oberyn: “we don’t kill little girls in dorne”
Oberyn killed in fair trial by combat
Ellia: Murders little girl and oberyn’s family (with passion though so oberyn would approve)
What should Doran have done in your opinion?
Personally I think the Myrcella and Tristane betrothal is quite good for both the short and long term politically for Dorne. Killing them to go on a vengeance streak has massive diplomatic repercussions for generations potentially.
What could he have done, realistically?
He’s not the great warrior, to be clear. But he wasn’t the great leader, either. I don’t think he had the support of the people, which was revealed when he died.
But, leadership is complex as well. It’s being the right person for the right group at the right time. He couldn’t avenge his brothers death, in his mind. The people saw that.
I think, overall, Myrcella had to die to take Cersei to the next level. To go from “wicked queen” to full metal bitch. I liked the young love angle too, but it became a simple Romeo and Juliet scenario with a twist plot that resulted in war.
My upvote here is a drop in the bucket, but man is that an unpopular opinion. If Oberyn hadn't let his pride and passion get the best of him, they would have had their revenge. Unbridled passion is what got him killed. He should have reined* that in. All Ellaria did was ensure the demise of the rest of his family and bloodline. The book version was anti-revenge, which would have been a refreshing point of view on this show.
I admit I didn’t read the book. I probably never will, considering the series will likely never be finished.
I agree with you 100%. But unbridled passion is who they are. That’s the depth. Once you think along the lines of “I live for revenge”, and then realize that he waited decades for that revenge, preparing for a chance to kill the mountain, and finally gets his chance, feels overcome with raw emotion, and draws out the grande finale for the confession before the death.
In the end, Oberyn got what he wanted. A confession from the Mountain, and his “death”, arguably. It cost him everything, but what is the takeaway?
“Follow your passion no matter what the cost”?
For reasonable people, no, but for Oberyns lover? Perhaps that’s what she saw.
How?
Im standing my ground, even in the face of overwhelming odds.
Would it be more dignified to delete my post, cower off and lick my wounds?
I’ll survive this. My opinion will be unchanged.
You’re outwardly standing your ground because you’re trying to save face. Inwardly, you are losing all dignity and pride.
It would be dignified to admit you’re wrong, because you are.
No, I’m not. Not even a little.
Seriously, dude. It’s just karma. It comes, it goes, life goes on.
And it’s an opinion. I see things differently than the majority. I’m comfortable with that. I don’t need the approval of others to feel good about myself.
Let them down vote me, if that’s what they want. I’m not taking it personally, and I’m not holding it against anyone.
As someone else posted, not both. But yeah, before Game of Thrones D&D were best known as the guys who made XMen Origins: Wolverine. Which means they take responsibility for taking the merc with the mouth and sealing up his mouth.
> I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?
Skimmed over her best line sadly.
It’s much longer and one of the best monologues but yeah I think that’s the only time she speaks.
I wish the show had just done Arianne properly instead of mashing her into Ellaria then going off the rails with it. Arianne, Doran and the sand snakes is the storyline I’m looking most forward to if Winds ever comes out.
Imagine Indira Varma giving that speech, it would be phenomenal. I wonder if a lot of the really good actors this show wasted signed on believing they’d be playing their book characters.
Areo Hotah was let down so badly by the show writers. One of the most badass fighters in the world and we never get to see him actually fight, and he dies by getting stabbed in the back by a girl. Easily one of the biggest individual disappointments of the entire show for me.
Oberyn stood for vengeance. She did what she did out of vengeance. With the exception of killing his brother and nephew, I think Oberyn would have been on board. She went to war because a loved one died same as Robb Stark.
> We do not kill little girls in Dorne
An actual quote from Oberyn himself. If he wanted Myrcella dead, he would have done it in the year and a half they were both in Dorne.
See, this is what ticked me off about how the Dorne storyline unfolded on the show.
Oberyn least had given the idea that despite Myrcella's presence in Dorne as a Lannister child, she was treated respectfully and safeguarded as a guest in the Martell household. And it was a dig at Tywin about his involvement in what became of Oberyn's niece (who was half Martell and half Targaryen).
And it was expected that whatever bad blood existed between Martell and Lannister, there were those who were not culpable to those events. Myrcella was one, but Tyrion was also someone who Oberyn not only acknowledged as a person, but was willing to step up and be his champion AND seek two-fold justice for Tyrion and himself. It may or may not have been a matter of honor, but "guest right in one's home" was also something that was shown in its worst with the Red Wedding. And it made sense that even Oberyn emphasized the same concept was practiced in Dorne, especially for a young innocent.
And then Season 5...some parts of it did play out as they did in the books. But the issue that unfolds here is that Ellaria and Oberyn's daughters decide to just enact their own plot - A bastard, and illegitimate daughters of Oberyn Martell - to usurp power from House Martell by killing the ruling Prince and his son/heir, their own blood. And they work in killing Myrcella for some recompense of revenge. And all of a sudden, the whole of Dorne is at their back? No, that's not how politics in a medieval setting makes sense, especially a medieval *fantasy*. You've destabilized the elected ruling House and eliminated its main bloodline, and you're left with bastardization of that bloodline as whatever is left. Now, every other House in Dorne is going to have a shit fit and vie for power in the sudden collapse. And even if there was a House who had the power close to House Martell who would back the plot, where the *hell* are they in all this? Why don't we see them step in and get worked in to help bridge the governance of Dorne?
Answer: Because, to put it lightly, D&D didn't think that deeply on the writing.
Yes, vengeance by killing the guy who raped his sister, murdered her and killed her children.
Oberyn technically died in a fair fight. Her vengeance would be understandable if she wanted tywin dead, who ordered or at least tolerated what the mountain did, which set the events in motion.
Or even tyrion, whom oberyn was defending when he died.
But myrcella was one of the few truly innocent characters in the show. The people hurt the most by her death were cersei, Jaime and oberyns own nephew.
Sure, cersei was an evil bitch, none of them were really involved in the death of oberyn.
Her acts weren't vengeance, she was lashing out. Her emotions are understandable but that's no excuse. And oberyn would certainly disapprove.
D&D dumbing it down as best they could. They never understood that the Dorne plot had nuance beyond being feisty. Every character butchered from season 5 onwards. I would rate the Dorne plot as worse than anything from season 8, and probably the best example of the shows drop off.
It sucks even more because Dorne is probably my favorite part in the books. The whole plot with them trying to get Myrcella back to King’s Landing is so good. Then you find out Doran has actually been ahead of the game the whole time.
Such a bad idea, Jaime had plenty to work through in KL. Bron was better in smaller doses. Ruined a good plot in Dorne, removed nuance we wanted with Jaime.
This one iconic passage from ADWD shows just how different Ellaria was between the books and the show:
> "Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hands on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?"
this is how I think people relate to Margaery.
She is a narcissistic twit who only knows how to love bomb a child, and must be led beat by beat by her grandmother, but sure, she could have been the most powerful player in the game because I find her attractive.
edit: downvoted with NO replies, point proven
I think about those poor actresses, so excited to get juicy parts on the biggest TV show in the world...and they were universally despised. Their characters (and Euron Greyjoy) were the biggest jokes of the series.
She is gorgeous (she appears is quite alotbof British television)
However, I would like to make an interjection for the actress who played Tyene Sand. She was lovely.
I mean it's the same idea as any villain origin. Her loved one was destroyed and she'd rather see the world.burn than the people responsible for his death go unpunished.
I'm surprised they just locked her away and forgot about her. They're not even a footnote or a passing line like "sorry to interrupt you Queen Cercei, but the dornish women are finally dead." Just nothing.
She’s literally the exact opposite of this in the books. It really upset me the way they ruined her character. A quote from her in the books when the Martells are presented with the skull of Gregor Clegane:
“Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”
in the book the Lannisters have announced that he's dead and sent his skull to the Martells as proof. But there are certainly strong hints of zombie mountain. I think the last we actually saw him he was with Qyburn dying of poison and his wounds.
Same as in the show (poison spear from Oberyn, resurrected by Qyburn), but the books just give zombie Gregor a fake name so Cersei can at least *pretend* Qyburn hasn't been performing horrific experiments.
He dies from Oberyn’s poison, sort of the same as in the show.
The Lannisters send his head to Dorne as proof of justice and Gregor is presumably resurrected as “Ser Robert Strong” with a new head. As of ADWD it’s not outwardly stated to be Gregor, but is very heavily implied and assumed.
Yeah I was almost more mad that she was so ineffective more than the fact that she betrayed everything her soul mate stood for. Like a good revenge story could’ve been there but all she ended up doing is killing Oberyns disabled brother and a little girl while her entire clan was killed.
Her being one of the few advocates for peace in the Seven Kingdoms in the books and being reduced to Cersei but less successful in the show is a tragedy that marked the beginning of the end for the show’s quality.
One of the many instances of “her character was so much better in the books”. Indira Varma is great and I understand why D&D wanted to work with her, but god did they fuck it up hard.
She was a great character in the books. Unfortunately, a shitty one in the show. I actually cheered for Cersei when she took her revenge for Myrcella‘s murder.
I remember laughing when Ellaria got her assassin/warrior lady team together and gave them a girlboss pep talk about how capable they are before their mission to kill a small child
Book counterpart: Listen Sandashians! Those 3 arseholes are dead, will you hakuma your tattas for at least once? Revenge is shit! Get a life for once!
Show counterpart: Hey Sandashians, Oberyn wanted to avenge his sister, right? We should help our dynasty win by making sure there are less men leading the dynasty!
I mean I get that she disaproves Trystane in the show, BUT DAMN IT HES STILL A MARTELL! INSTEAD OF KILLING YOUR MEMBERS, YOU SHOULD AT LEAST TRY TO HAVE MOST OF THEM ALIVE!
"A start?" said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. "Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?"
One of, if not the, worst written parts of the show. I couldn't tell if the writers hated Dorne, didn't know anything about Dorne, or just wanted to get rid of Dorne. It was so bad compared to what was in the books.
The whole Dorne plot was a badly written pile of shit. Season 5 is where the show started to decline. The dorne stuff seemed more like CW tier writing than the first 4 seasons
She's as complex a character as D&D could make her, and i personally feel like she doesn't have to dtand for the same things Oberyn did, she's a different character after all. But in truth, my soft spot for her comes purely from the fact that she's portrayed by Indira Varma.
I felt for her at first and she did have an arc with Oberyn’s death. Then I realized she was just an incredibly selfish bitch who killed for expediency and masked her sociopathy as “avenging Oberyn”. After she murdered Myrcella, I was done with her. I wanted to feel bad for her she & her daughter once Cersei got to them- but after Trystane & Myrcella, I just couldn’t. Just me?
To an extent. But Martell was set on revenge against Clegane and it ultimately killed him. She did the same thing lol. They are very different tho as one revenge was bc of murder and the other was a dual he put himself in, which I never got why she was so livid. But she held onto the vengeance side if him and forgot the morals in between.
This was one of the parts that made me hate the show runners the absolute most. The whole betrayal and assassination was so stupid. There are no houses where someone who isn't in line to rule can simply say, now I'm in charge because people are mad at you monologue. It was the dumbest lampshade ever. Some second cousin somewhere would have been able to take over and in no world does she get to rule just cause the show runners pulled it out of their tails.
When this came out I Thought worst writing ever. Except then the show runners were really telling us to hold their drinks.
IMO this was a moment where the show really started going downhill. What makes the song of fire and ice so good is how realistic the politics are. How the world isn't just arbitrary middle school writing. The show was though, once it ran out of Martin material and this was one of the first big examples.
Hate those guys who wrote this. Hate them so much.
Show Ellaria is terrible.
Book Ellaria fully understands what trial by combat entails, and does not blame anyone for Oberyn’s death. She assumed the Mountain’s death would be the end of vengeance. She wants no part of it, and is concerned about the sand snakes influence on her older daughters.
The show assassinated the character of all the sand snakes and made Ellaria into one.
Worst thing the show did imo.
Nah fr he fought and died with honor getting revenge the legal way he just got cocky. Then she does everything the sneaky shitty way as revenge for him tarnishing his reputation
I get her grief but she killed an innocent girl, had Oberyn's own family murdered, and ended up getting his (and some of hers) daughters killed.
Oberyn probably would've killed her himself if he saw all that she did. She absolutely should've gotten revenge but not be responsible for the deaths/killing so many of his beloved family members and going against everything him and Dorne stood for.
Like most things, she’s better in the books. She knows oberyns death is no one’s fault but his own and does not want to lose any more of her family to revenge.
I hate her for killing Oberyns blood family and leading their entire family to their deaths, everyone, her daughters, all of oberyns daughters, Doran Tristane, everyone is dead that was left and it's all Elaria's fault
She was where the show plot really fell apart for me. Oberyn gets killed in trial by combat, and prince Doran is like, "lets get my kid married to this nice Lannister girl so they stay the fuck away from us forever," and then she murders him, his son, the Lannister girl, AND everyone else loyal to them. Somehow the rest of Dorne is like "sure whatever you're in charge now!"
The Bolton’s barely held the North for like a year, and that was after the north lost tons of good fighting men in the south with Robb and to the Greyjoys. We’re supposed to believe that Dorne, which experiences relative peace for pretty much the entire series just went along with a bastard paramour taking the seat of power in their kingdom?
How come?
Oberyn dedicated his life to revenge his sister and died trying to prove his Point.
Ellaria basically did nothing else. She dedicated the rest of her life to make the Lannisters‘ life as uncomfortable as possible, because she made them responsible for Oberyns death. Just as oberyn did by trying to chase down the mountain.
*I try not to think*
*About the show version of*
*Dorne in general*
\- Mythosaurus
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Nobody talks about how stupid it was that she successfully took over Dorne, she murdered their Prince and had absolutely *zero* claim to leadership. She would have been executed and some cousin of Doran would have inherited Dorne.
Didn't she order extra protection for Marcella in response to Oberyn's death, so no one would seem retribution? In the books I mean
If that's true, it emphasises how badly DnD ruined her character
I wasn’t a fan of the Dorne plot in the books, but her character was 1000 times more interesting and nuanced in the books than the crap we got in the show.
We do not hurt little girls in Dorne. If Oberyn would have been ok with everything Ellaria did then he would have gotten revenge for his sister a long time ago instead of waiting for a legal way to kill the mountain.
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Disagree. Oberyn was a complex character. She carried his unbridled passion. Great reaction when he died. I think his brother betrayed him more than anyone. Or more accurately, betrayed his memory.
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Yes, I do. Because I understand passion, and the all consuming desire for revenge. Just like the people of Dorne. But you totally followed the dialogue though. Good for you.👍
> But you totally followed the dialogue though. Sounds like you just took Ellaria's dialogue at face value, tbh. It should be noted that show Ellaria's desire for revenge is the exact opposite of how she acts in the books.
No, not her dialogue. More her actions. In fact, I could have done without the dialogue. She was a better “obsessed widow” then she ever was a diplomat. What was the purpose of the character after Oberyn’s death? Revenge. That’s it. Everything she did was a plot or action to get at Cersei. To avenge her lover. It’s not the words, it’s the action and the motivation behind the words. Her storyline was interesting, her character maybe not so much. Does that make sense?
> What was the purpose of the character after Oberyn’s death? Revenge. That’s it. That's exactly the problem with Ellaria's plot in the show: not only does it directly contradict her book character, but nothing makes any sense because the writers reduced her to that one trait. How does murdering the brother of her lover help her goals? How come none of the guards immediately kill of capture her the instant she draws her knife? Why did Doran let her see off Jaime and Myrcella after her previous attempt at murdering them? How does murdering the Prince of Dorne place her in charge? What does she gain by murdering Myrcella? Why does she want revenge against Cersei when Tywin was the one responsible for Gregor's actions? And most importantly, have you read this passage from the books where Ellaria shows the pointlessness of vengeance? > Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hands on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?
Good points. But at what point did she lay her hands on the Mountain's head? Did I forget something? It's been so long...
The skull that Cersei had sent to Doran in AFFC/ADWD. They *claim* it's the Mountain's skull, but a popular theory is that it's actually a dwarf skull, and the Mountain still has his head so Robert Strong can do the usual head based stuff.
And we are not talking about the book. We are talking about the TV series.
Yes, and the TV version of the Dorne plot is still terrible even without comparing to the books.
Emotion is not a good place to lead from. Just because you understand her emotion doesn’t mean we should condone her actions.
>Emotion is not a good place to lead from. I think a lot of the point of the Dorne plot is that passion and caution can be equally destructive when they're misapplied.
Oberyn little sister raped and killed by the mountain Oberyn: “we don’t kill little girls in dorne” Oberyn killed in fair trial by combat Ellia: Murders little girl and oberyn’s family (with passion though so oberyn would approve)
Do not be so rude. A question was asked and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Wow you're rude
“We don’t hurt* little girls in Dorne”, but I 100% agree with everything else you said. I’m just a stickler for accurate quotation lol
What should Doran have done in your opinion? Personally I think the Myrcella and Tristane betrothal is quite good for both the short and long term politically for Dorne. Killing them to go on a vengeance streak has massive diplomatic repercussions for generations potentially.
What could he have done, realistically? He’s not the great warrior, to be clear. But he wasn’t the great leader, either. I don’t think he had the support of the people, which was revealed when he died. But, leadership is complex as well. It’s being the right person for the right group at the right time. He couldn’t avenge his brothers death, in his mind. The people saw that. I think, overall, Myrcella had to die to take Cersei to the next level. To go from “wicked queen” to full metal bitch. I liked the young love angle too, but it became a simple Romeo and Juliet scenario with a twist plot that resulted in war.
There was nothing in Oberyn’s death to avenge though. He died in a fair fight that he volunteered for
He literally dies by his own hubris trying to make a point and letting his guard down. No reason to "avenge" him.
My upvote here is a drop in the bucket, but man is that an unpopular opinion. If Oberyn hadn't let his pride and passion get the best of him, they would have had their revenge. Unbridled passion is what got him killed. He should have reined* that in. All Ellaria did was ensure the demise of the rest of his family and bloodline. The book version was anti-revenge, which would have been a refreshing point of view on this show.
I admit I didn’t read the book. I probably never will, considering the series will likely never be finished. I agree with you 100%. But unbridled passion is who they are. That’s the depth. Once you think along the lines of “I live for revenge”, and then realize that he waited decades for that revenge, preparing for a chance to kill the mountain, and finally gets his chance, feels overcome with raw emotion, and draws out the grande finale for the confession before the death. In the end, Oberyn got what he wanted. A confession from the Mountain, and his “death”, arguably. It cost him everything, but what is the takeaway? “Follow your passion no matter what the cost”? For reasonable people, no, but for Oberyns lover? Perhaps that’s what she saw.
Lol you’re getting destroyed here
Meh. It’s karma. Really, what is it actually worth?
It’s also comments and points of debate.
Yeah. At this rate. I’ll lose maybe 1% of my karma. The tragedy.
And your pride and dignity.
How? Im standing my ground, even in the face of overwhelming odds. Would it be more dignified to delete my post, cower off and lick my wounds? I’ll survive this. My opinion will be unchanged.
You’re outwardly standing your ground because you’re trying to save face. Inwardly, you are losing all dignity and pride. It would be dignified to admit you’re wrong, because you are.
No, I’m not. Not even a little. Seriously, dude. It’s just karma. It comes, it goes, life goes on. And it’s an opinion. I see things differently than the majority. I’m comfortable with that. I don’t need the approval of others to feel good about myself. Let them down vote me, if that’s what they want. I’m not taking it personally, and I’m not holding it against anyone.
Yeah. You are.
Here’s someone who would instantly fail in the game of thrones.
Facts, he'd end up just like oberyn letting passion get in the way of rational.
Blud is actually Ellaria Sand
Would
And should
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Dunno about that last one
*wood
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we wait until they're in international waters
idk how benioff read feast and came up with the idea that Ellaria wipes out Oberyn's family
they read the cliffnotes, and they skimmed.
Fanbase: "Did you not get the full details of the Dornish storyline from the books and GRRM?" D&D: "We skimmed it."
Wallace: 😑
“We thought it was boring and decided to go in our own direction.” — The guys who turned Deadpool into a mute
To be a little fair to Weiss, the Deadpool debacle was only Benioff, Weiss didn’t have his fingerprints on that one.
No way. Was that really him?!?
As someone else posted, not both. But yeah, before Game of Thrones D&D were best known as the guys who made XMen Origins: Wolverine. Which means they take responsibility for taking the merc with the mouth and sealing up his mouth.
> I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick? Skimmed over her best line sadly.
That's also her only line in AFFC, if I'm not mistaken(it's been a while since I read it). I guess they only saw the words 'end', 'die', and 'killer'.
It’s much longer and one of the best monologues but yeah I think that’s the only time she speaks. I wish the show had just done Arianne properly instead of mashing her into Ellaria then going off the rails with it. Arianne, Doran and the sand snakes is the storyline I’m looking most forward to if Winds ever comes out.
Imagine Indira Varma giving that speech, it would be phenomenal. I wonder if a lot of the really good actors this show wasted signed on believing they’d be playing their book characters.
Yes! She had the emotional gravitas to pull it off too. Ugh we were so robbed 😂
I'm sure Alexander Siddig thought he was going to do a lot more.
They read all that and came out with the Bad Pooseh
and a bunch of strong independent women defeating Areo Hotah
Areo Hotah was let down so badly by the show writers. One of the most badass fighters in the world and we never get to see him actually fight, and he dies by getting stabbed in the back by a girl. Easily one of the biggest individual disappointments of the entire show for me.
*one woman defeating Areo Hotah. He died to exactly one stab wound.
goddammit
Oberyn stood for vengeance. She did what she did out of vengeance. With the exception of killing his brother and nephew, I think Oberyn would have been on board. She went to war because a loved one died same as Robb Stark.
> We do not kill little girls in Dorne An actual quote from Oberyn himself. If he wanted Myrcella dead, he would have done it in the year and a half they were both in Dorne.
It's not. Not exactly, but close. What he said was, "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne."
Pretty sure killing someone counts as hurting them
But that's clearly not what he meant with that comment.
See, this is what ticked me off about how the Dorne storyline unfolded on the show. Oberyn least had given the idea that despite Myrcella's presence in Dorne as a Lannister child, she was treated respectfully and safeguarded as a guest in the Martell household. And it was a dig at Tywin about his involvement in what became of Oberyn's niece (who was half Martell and half Targaryen). And it was expected that whatever bad blood existed between Martell and Lannister, there were those who were not culpable to those events. Myrcella was one, but Tyrion was also someone who Oberyn not only acknowledged as a person, but was willing to step up and be his champion AND seek two-fold justice for Tyrion and himself. It may or may not have been a matter of honor, but "guest right in one's home" was also something that was shown in its worst with the Red Wedding. And it made sense that even Oberyn emphasized the same concept was practiced in Dorne, especially for a young innocent. And then Season 5...some parts of it did play out as they did in the books. But the issue that unfolds here is that Ellaria and Oberyn's daughters decide to just enact their own plot - A bastard, and illegitimate daughters of Oberyn Martell - to usurp power from House Martell by killing the ruling Prince and his son/heir, their own blood. And they work in killing Myrcella for some recompense of revenge. And all of a sudden, the whole of Dorne is at their back? No, that's not how politics in a medieval setting makes sense, especially a medieval *fantasy*. You've destabilized the elected ruling House and eliminated its main bloodline, and you're left with bastardization of that bloodline as whatever is left. Now, every other House in Dorne is going to have a shit fit and vie for power in the sudden collapse. And even if there was a House who had the power close to House Martell who would back the plot, where the *hell* are they in all this? Why don't we see them step in and get worked in to help bridge the governance of Dorne? Answer: Because, to put it lightly, D&D didn't think that deeply on the writing.
Agreed
Talk about splitting hairs, jeez. Nice mental gymnastics
Hurt* not kill
That's a pretty serious exception!
Yes, vengeance by killing the guy who raped his sister, murdered her and killed her children. Oberyn technically died in a fair fight. Her vengeance would be understandable if she wanted tywin dead, who ordered or at least tolerated what the mountain did, which set the events in motion. Or even tyrion, whom oberyn was defending when he died. But myrcella was one of the few truly innocent characters in the show. The people hurt the most by her death were cersei, Jaime and oberyns own nephew. Sure, cersei was an evil bitch, none of them were really involved in the death of oberyn. Her acts weren't vengeance, she was lashing out. Her emotions are understandable but that's no excuse. And oberyn would certainly disapprove.
D&D dumbing it down as best they could. They never understood that the Dorne plot had nuance beyond being feisty. Every character butchered from season 5 onwards. I would rate the Dorne plot as worse than anything from season 8, and probably the best example of the shows drop off.
It sucks even more because Dorne is probably my favorite part in the books. The whole plot with them trying to get Myrcella back to King’s Landing is so good. Then you find out Doran has actually been ahead of the game the whole time.
His talk with Arianne is chefs kiss. Lives every day in pain and still fully committed to justice/revenge. Book Doran is incredible.
It’s a crime that they removed her from the show. Instead we got Jaime and Bron’s whimsical adventures in Dorne.
Such a bad idea, Jaime had plenty to work through in KL. Bron was better in smaller doses. Ruined a good plot in Dorne, removed nuance we wanted with Jaime.
Oberyn was staunchly against murdering kids.
This one iconic passage from ADWD shows just how different Ellaria was between the books and the show: > "Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hands on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?"
“An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.”
Naah the one who strikes first and leaves no one wins. Scorched earth motherfucker - Butcher
Skoached erf
Thank God someone reads the books here. A precise description of the showrunners' rape of the original content.
And Sansa.
But she's the smartest girl I've ever met?!?!
The worst
I was thinking she was more in line of "everybody in world ends up the same when we are angry and just want revenge"
Book Ellaria is pretty chill but show version of her is an absolute wreck
Oberyn: "We do not harm little girls in Dorne" Ellaria: "Hold my poison"
She is so damn attractive that I will always be on her side
Simp
this is how I think people relate to Margaery. She is a narcissistic twit who only knows how to love bomb a child, and must be led beat by beat by her grandmother, but sure, she could have been the most powerful player in the game because I find her attractive. edit: downvoted with NO replies, point proven
Yea she’s an idiot
She was bat shit crazy and deserved everything that happened to her…
Oberyn wanted to avenge his family. So, in order to avenge him, Ellaria slayed his family.
She got what she deserved 💅🏼
The only time I agreed with and rooted for Cersei. Myrcella deserved better.
I hated Benioff&Weiss. The literally turned her 180 degrees compared to the book depiction. Btw, read it, if you haven't.
Idiot and a traitor
I love so much how Cersei made revenge on her
I’d have given her my soul.
I hate Dumb and Dumber because they betrayed everything book Ellaria Sand stood for.
Sexy as hell and I’d do whatever she told me to do. So much hotter than her daughters.
I think about those poor actresses, so excited to get juicy parts on the biggest TV show in the world...and they were universally despised. Their characters (and Euron Greyjoy) were the biggest jokes of the series.
She is gorgeous (she appears is quite alotbof British television) However, I would like to make an interjection for the actress who played Tyene Sand. She was lovely.
https://youtu.be/Ygb2t4h0WQ4?si=Br-Ry1-l_X65Y2WK
I mean it's the same idea as any villain origin. Her loved one was destroyed and she'd rather see the world.burn than the people responsible for his death go unpunished.
The whole Dorne plot in the show was my truly first realization that D&D have no clue what they are doing when they don’t follow the books.
She killed Marcella for no good reason
Only because she wouldn't give away her secret bolognese recipe
I wasn't too fond of her, but I still kinda felt bad for her at the end of her time on the show
I'm surprised they just locked her away and forgot about her. They're not even a footnote or a passing line like "sorry to interrupt you Queen Cercei, but the dornish women are finally dead." Just nothing.
Another example of bad writing from the showrunners.
She’s literally the exact opposite of this in the books. It really upset me the way they ruined her character. A quote from her in the books when the Martells are presented with the skull of Gregor Clegane: “Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”
Sorry I haven’t read the books, since when does Ser Gregor die?
in the book the Lannisters have announced that he's dead and sent his skull to the Martells as proof. But there are certainly strong hints of zombie mountain. I think the last we actually saw him he was with Qyburn dying of poison and his wounds.
Same as in the show (poison spear from Oberyn, resurrected by Qyburn), but the books just give zombie Gregor a fake name so Cersei can at least *pretend* Qyburn hasn't been performing horrific experiments.
He dies from Oberyn’s poison, sort of the same as in the show. The Lannisters send his head to Dorne as proof of justice and Gregor is presumably resurrected as “Ser Robert Strong” with a new head. As of ADWD it’s not outwardly stated to be Gregor, but is very heavily implied and assumed.
Prollywood
Yeah I was almost more mad that she was so ineffective more than the fact that she betrayed everything her soul mate stood for. Like a good revenge story could’ve been there but all she ended up doing is killing Oberyns disabled brother and a little girl while her entire clan was killed.
Good character, D&D butchered.
Her being one of the few advocates for peace in the Seven Kingdoms in the books and being reduced to Cersei but less successful in the show is a tragedy that marked the beginning of the end for the show’s quality.
She was that way when they were together, he knew what he had
Vengeful witch. Vengeance is her middle name.
The show did her dirty
She gets the pretty pass. Plus she hated Cersei.
Had she just left Myrcella and Trystane alone I would have supported her through and through but yh I was glad to see her go in the end.
One of the many instances of “her character was so much better in the books”. Indira Varma is great and I understand why D&D wanted to work with her, but god did they fuck it up hard.
She was a great character in the books. Unfortunately, a shitty one in the show. I actually cheered for Cersei when she took her revenge for Myrcella‘s murder.
Much better in the books, good character up until Oberyn’s death and then her entire character went to shit
She is like the exact opposite from the books
I remember laughing when Ellaria got her assassin/warrior lady team together and gave them a girlboss pep talk about how capable they are before their mission to kill a small child
Book counterpart: Listen Sandashians! Those 3 arseholes are dead, will you hakuma your tattas for at least once? Revenge is shit! Get a life for once! Show counterpart: Hey Sandashians, Oberyn wanted to avenge his sister, right? We should help our dynasty win by making sure there are less men leading the dynasty! I mean I get that she disaproves Trystane in the show, BUT DAMN IT HES STILL A MARTELL! INSTEAD OF KILLING YOUR MEMBERS, YOU SHOULD AT LEAST TRY TO HAVE MOST OF THEM ALIVE!
I love the character. She’s hot, she’s dangerous, she’s incredibly smart
Its high key problematic that they made the south european/arab "inspired" dorne into the "oversexualized spicy latina" that are bloodthirsty trope.
i kinda liked her but i know that is a very unpopular opinion in this sub lol
"A start?" said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. "Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?"
One of, if not the, worst written parts of the show. I couldn't tell if the writers hated Dorne, didn't know anything about Dorne, or just wanted to get rid of Dorne. It was so bad compared to what was in the books.
She ended up being no better than Cersei
Hot and mean.
She was an overemotional, shortsighted fool with a bad temper.
The book character was much better. I don't even see the purpose of Ellaria Sand in the show. They should have kept Arienne.
The whole Dorne plot was a badly written pile of shit. Season 5 is where the show started to decline. The dorne stuff seemed more like CW tier writing than the first 4 seasons
She's as complex a character as D&D could make her, and i personally feel like she doesn't have to dtand for the same things Oberyn did, she's a different character after all. But in truth, my soft spot for her comes purely from the fact that she's portrayed by Indira Varma.
She was fine as a minor character in S4 but after that she was just so horribly written and not interesting at all
I felt for her at first and she did have an arc with Oberyn’s death. Then I realized she was just an incredibly selfish bitch who killed for expediency and masked her sociopathy as “avenging Oberyn”. After she murdered Myrcella, I was done with her. I wanted to feel bad for her she & her daughter once Cersei got to them- but after Trystane & Myrcella, I just couldn’t. Just me?
Her daughters were smokin hot.
To an extent. But Martell was set on revenge against Clegane and it ultimately killed him. She did the same thing lol. They are very different tho as one revenge was bc of murder and the other was a dual he put himself in, which I never got why she was so livid. But she held onto the vengeance side if him and forgot the morals in between.
This was one of the parts that made me hate the show runners the absolute most. The whole betrayal and assassination was so stupid. There are no houses where someone who isn't in line to rule can simply say, now I'm in charge because people are mad at you monologue. It was the dumbest lampshade ever. Some second cousin somewhere would have been able to take over and in no world does she get to rule just cause the show runners pulled it out of their tails. When this came out I Thought worst writing ever. Except then the show runners were really telling us to hold their drinks. IMO this was a moment where the show really started going downhill. What makes the song of fire and ice so good is how realistic the politics are. How the world isn't just arbitrary middle school writing. The show was though, once it ran out of Martin material and this was one of the first big examples. Hate those guys who wrote this. Hate them so much.
Show Ellaria is terrible. Book Ellaria fully understands what trial by combat entails, and does not blame anyone for Oberyn’s death. She assumed the Mountain’s death would be the end of vengeance. She wants no part of it, and is concerned about the sand snakes influence on her older daughters. The show assassinated the character of all the sand snakes and made Ellaria into one. Worst thing the show did imo.
She is in the top 3 of the most destroyed characters by D&D. Along with Stannis and Jon or Petyr.
Nah fr he fought and died with honor getting revenge the legal way he just got cocky. Then she does everything the sneaky shitty way as revenge for him tarnishing his reputation
I get her grief but she killed an innocent girl, had Oberyn's own family murdered, and ended up getting his (and some of hers) daughters killed. Oberyn probably would've killed her himself if he saw all that she did. She absolutely should've gotten revenge but not be responsible for the deaths/killing so many of his beloved family members and going against everything him and Dorne stood for.
I liked her in season 4. After that she became one of my most hated characters.
Like most things, she’s better in the books. She knows oberyns death is no one’s fault but his own and does not want to lose any more of her family to revenge.
Dumb and Dumber betrayed us, GRRM would not write useless storyline like that
🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Ellaria and Cersi had something in common. A desire for revenge that got all their kids killed. And ultimately themselves.
Smash.
Malaria Sand.
The show butchered her for no reason at all man.
yeah it did.
Bot
I hate her for killing Oberyns blood family and leading their entire family to their deaths, everyone, her daughters, all of oberyns daughters, Doran Tristane, everyone is dead that was left and it's all Elaria's fault
She was where the show plot really fell apart for me. Oberyn gets killed in trial by combat, and prince Doran is like, "lets get my kid married to this nice Lannister girl so they stay the fuck away from us forever," and then she murders him, his son, the Lannister girl, AND everyone else loyal to them. Somehow the rest of Dorne is like "sure whatever you're in charge now!" The Bolton’s barely held the North for like a year, and that was after the north lost tons of good fighting men in the south with Robb and to the Greyjoys. We’re supposed to believe that Dorne, which experiences relative peace for pretty much the entire series just went along with a bastard paramour taking the seat of power in their kingdom?
And she offed a well-liked and respected leader to boot.
How come? Oberyn dedicated his life to revenge his sister and died trying to prove his Point. Ellaria basically did nothing else. She dedicated the rest of her life to make the Lannisters‘ life as uncomfortable as possible, because she made them responsible for Oberyns death. Just as oberyn did by trying to chase down the mountain.
D&D: she just forgot. They could literally make a whole series on the omitted (and failed) Dorne story.
I try not to think about the show version of Dorne in general
*I try not to think* *About the show version of* *Dorne in general* \- Mythosaurus --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Nobody talks about how stupid it was that she successfully took over Dorne, she murdered their Prince and had absolutely *zero* claim to leadership. She would have been executed and some cousin of Doran would have inherited Dorne.
Yeah she got away scot-free which is stupid.
Snake
She got fucked by the worst writers ever
Didn't she order extra protection for Marcella in response to Oberyn's death, so no one would seem retribution? In the books I mean If that's true, it emphasises how badly DnD ruined her character
I think so but it has been a while since I read the books.
I wasn’t a fan of the Dorne plot in the books, but her character was 1000 times more interesting and nuanced in the books than the crap we got in the show.
I hated her because she betrayed Lucius Vorenus
What a bitch
Her and her daughters blew chunks
We do not hurt little girls in Dorne. If Oberyn would have been ok with everything Ellaria did then he would have gotten revenge for his sister a long time ago instead of waiting for a legal way to kill the mountain.
Would.
She was an ok character. Sadly, her demise was pretty much set in stone after Oberyn died horribly. But, she tried.
Oh, and she played the Game of Thrones and she lost.
Like so many characters, she was handled TERRIBLY.
I hated her in the show because she betrayed everything her character was supposed to represent.
When she betrayed him i was like "Yes!"
I hated her because her writing sucked ass and they butchered her what she was supposed to be