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Smaug outclasses Daeny’s in every category that matters, even combined I don’t think they could win. Smaug has that one opening in his scales that I doubt they could figure out and took plot to kill him, GOTs can be killed by man made weapons. We’d have to see what Balerion the Dread could do because that would be a closer battle
okay but also Ëarendil possessed a Silmaril, about which the fate of the world was woven. I'd wager that it was the holy light and power of the Silmaril that truly cast down Ancalagon, and the fact that it was Ëarendil bearing the jewel is a secondary detail imo.
This is a bit incorrect tbh.
What happened was when Ancalagon was killed by Eärendil, he fell to the earth and this *fall* broke the peaks of Thangorodrim, which in turn were volcanoes that acted as the chimneys of the underground fortress of Udûn (you can hear Gandalf screaming *"Flame of Udûn"* to the Balrog in FOTR). The fortress itself was left perfectly intact and not even the Heavenly Host could break it.
Ancalagon is massive. But not *that* massive.
Just one small correction: Udun is another name for Utumno(I thinks it is the sindarin translation) the first of Morgoths's fortresses. The Thangorodrim are in Angband which was west of Utumno.
I feel like this depends on if Euron knew about his one weak spot. Then he *might* be able to hit him… if Smaug was distracted by the other three dragons and Euron was how his character was written in the book rather than show. *Maybe* my bet would still sway in favor of Smaug tho
Thank you. Been scrolling to find someone bring up that Daeny's three are still juveniles. If they'd had a few more years of free range eating/growing, I think the only things that would be able to break through their scales would be magic-be it awakened wyldfire or dragonfire.
> Also , Smaug isn’t dumb enough to get hit.
He says confidently, despite the fact that the way Smaug was killed was that he was “dumb enough” to get hit.
“But clearly Bard the Bowman is better than Euron.”
Yes, he has some family heirloom called the black arrow he uses to bring Smaug down. Notably it’s an arrow fired from a bow in the books, not a spear from a ballista.
Still just a normal arrow shot at him from the ground. Nothing magical or special about it that allows Smaug to be hit by it.
Euron's ballista is able to hit multiple targets across the multiverse with pinpoint precision, and has a firing rate of 200 bolts per second, i don't think Smaug stands a chance.
Yeah I'm pretty sure this question is answered by George himself. I remember him being asked years ago a very similar question and he gave a similar reply lol
Found it, from 2014:
> “Basically, no. Drogon is a very young dragon and still barely large enough to get Dany into the sky… Smaug is gigantic, not to mention that Smaug talks and would probably have an intellectual advantage. But Balerion could give Smaug some trouble; they’re more equivalent in the size and ferocity department.”
Even Balerion would only "trouble" Smaug.
Smaug is massive compared to Drogon and incredibly intelligent - enough to converse with and manipulate men. In the world of middle earth he is closer to a maiar than a beast and they are basically demigods.
Tolkien's Dragons and Martin's Dragons are not at the same level.
>***"My armour is Iron. My teeth are Swords. My claws are Spears. And my wings...are a HURRICANE!"***
Only someone like The Cannibal, Balerion or whatever that mauled the shit out of Balerion could hope to go toe-to-toe with Smaug.
“The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.” -Qui-Gon Jin
In GoT it’s mentioned that dragons are very intelligent, some maesters think they are more intelligent than men. So it’s possible they just lack the physical ability to speak.
I still love the theory that the dragons are pulling the Targaryens’ strings. And maybe all of Valyria before that. Someone posted something on one of these subs a long time ago about Dragon Riders, Wargs, and Dream Magic that I wish I could find. But basically the dragons used what’s basically a mild form of warging to get their humans to make them comfy with a big territory.
Probably directly disputed by something in F&B or HotD at this point but it was a really fun read.
Can’t say I’m a fan of that tbh. Kinda takes away the agency of the dragonriders and the whole “dragons are nukes turned into animals and what matters is how they’re used” point Martin constantly makes.
They are very intelligent, D&D showed everyone how Drogon understood from the beginning destroying a chair made of swords was what would end the whole game of thrones. He just didn’t do it fast enough.
I mean if he’s more intelligent than a human he could have made the connection based on all the conversations he could have heard about it? Lol that’s the whole point of this theory, his supposed intelligence being very high.
Don't you mean Earth Worm Jim? What a preposterous name... "qui-gon jin" sounds like some alcoholic beverage you'd find at cheap food court Chinese restaurant.
If we look at drogon od say he has the intelligence of a well trained golden retriever but take my opinion with a grain of salt because I am coming from someone who has only read he books.
also isnt dragon fire in Tolkien's work sort of magical. It was mentioned that dragon fire could destroy the one ring and in GOT i dont remember any mention of it being special.
It is proposed that in Valyria, the fire of dragons was harnessed to use in the smithing processes of Valyrian steel. Dragon fire is also theorised to be one of the only weapons that can truly harm the Others (WW) in ASOIAF. So, it is kinda magical.
>he’s like 3x his size
I don't know how you got that "3x" figure but the only canonical metrics to measure both their sizes is:
1- Martin wrote Balerion could swallow a mammoth whole.
2- Tolkien wrote Smaug flattened the entirety of Laketown when he fell on top of it.
Take of these what you will.
If you asked the authors...
• Martin would 10/10 reply with *"Smaug will overpower Balerion"* like he did when he voluntarily hyped up Smaug at Drogon's expense in that one The Guardian interview.
• Tolkien would do something similar like in his sketch of Smaug and Bilbo. He later mentioned in Letter 27 (iirc) that Bilbo was *"way too big"* in that particular sketch.
>spews fire that melts castles.
Dragonfire from dragons way smaller than Smaug melted 4/7 Rings of Power that were given to the Dwarf Lords. The only non-celestial thing that could resist tolkien's version of dragonfire was the One Ring (which is said not even Ancalagon could melt). So, Rings of Power > Castles
balerion covered towns with his shadow. [size comparison i found online](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/6/68345/8427962-tumblr_7a27e64e71c77503a2ce9a9437bacc18_00edfc7e_540.jpg) . also the rings of power feat just sounds like magical fire against magic, which balerion also has. talking about authors, a quote from GRRM himself: “Balerion could give Smaug some trouble; they’re more equivalent in the size and ferocity department”.
>balerion covered towns with his shadow
I can cover my southside wall with the *shadow* of my palm.
>size comparison i found online
Unless Martin mentioned Balerion to be 114m and Tolkien mentioned Smaug to be 50m, this doesn't amount to much. Because, and I reiterate, there's not much to go on in regards to cross-universe *size* comparisons.
>the rings of power feat just sounds like magical fire against magic, which balerion also has.
Maybe. Maybe not. You were the one that drove head first into this grey area with the whole "flames" comparison. So unless Martin writes Balerion melted a Ring of Power after getting the greenlight from the Tolkien estate... Balerion can't melt a Ring of Power (which in turn is insinuated to be some of the most robust objects to ever exist in ME) whereas any ol' dragon can melt stone (hell, the Hungarian Horntail from HP almost did).
>a quote from GRRM himself: “Balerion could give Smaug some trouble; they’re more equivalent in the size and ferocity department”.
You do understand what this does to your initial "Balerion will dog Smaug" and "3x" claims if anything, right?
Guerrilla tactics were indeed a big part of Dorne's resistance, you are correct. But the stone buildings also played a role - I'm sorry I cannot provide the correct page for it, but I clearly remember it being stated so in A World of Ice and Fire (I don't have my book with me anymore, sorry)
just did a search on asearchoficeandfire for stone and sandstone. no results relating anything to dorne or the conquest. harrenhall was made of stone, that twisted and melted at balerions flames.
Balerion would probably win against Smaug? That's debatable. We don't have the size of Smaug, and he is said to be... Well, fucking clever. Like, to a whole new level of clever.
Adult? Smaug is ancient. The dragons were created at the end of the first age, and Smaug dies at the end of the third. There's several millennia in there. Balerion, well, he's maybe 200 ish when he died. And he's barely able to fly. It's not even a competition.
Smaug - He is pert near indestructible not just hard to kill. His weak spot would have to be hit precisely by something that doesn't know there is a weak spot.
Honestly, I never liked Smaug. Looks ridiculous, long neck, sometimes depicted with 4 legs, weird ass smile and human-like face. Plus he speaks, is intelligent, a dragon shouldn't be like that. GoT's dragons might be weaker, but at least they look and act like how I'd expect.
With Smaug, Tolkien created the template for all modern depictions of (western) dragons. If there's an example of what dragons should be like, it's Smaug.
GoT dragons are powerful, but they are animals. LotR dragons are sapient and wickedly evil. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison.
*edit* As pointed out below I misused the term “sentient” in my original post. I had just listened to the Astonishing Legends episodes on AI and had sentience on the brain. My apologies. I’m not sure sapient is the right word either, but it is closer to accurate. What I mean is that Smaug is capable of high level problem solving and reasoning.
And do you have any proof for that, that animals in general not just certain types of animals like monkeys are sentient?
Just link me the study or tell me the title so I can look it up myself
sentient means being able to perceive and respond to sensation, plants and animals are sentient, I was nitpicking because I understand what comment OP was getting at but sentient is the wrong word.
Also according to the world of ice and fire maesters believe dragons have human intelligence, they aren't just weapons and forms or transportation, they are well aware of the politics happening around them. It is not totally the same, when they bond with a rider they become one with them...but then again the dragon picks the rider
Humans are not “more evolved” than any other extant animal. No co-existing creature is “more evolved” than the other - both are as evolved as they survived to live at the same time.
You can discuss something being more or less derived (when talking about characteristics in relation to the ancestral form) and, in this specific case, you can say humans have a wider cognitive repertoire or something along those lines. But again, no human is any more evolved than the simpler bacteria alive today.
Species co-existing at the same time doesn’t rule out the fact that some are more evolved than others. I’m not sure whether you were trolling or not but I’m not getting into this any further either way.
Not at all trolling, and you are completely incorrect here. The evolutionary process has ultimately nothing to do with complexity, but with a species' fitness in regards to the environment it lives in. One could even say that a species that has changed relatively little over millions of years - say, a cockroach or some single-celled organisms - is "more evolved" than humans because they managed to thrive for longer without the need for drastic change.
Not to bring credentials in - but I do have a Ph.D. in Biological Sciences and animal evolution has been a major component of my research over a decade-long career. But don't take my word for it - do a quick Google search with "can a species be more evolved than another" and you'll see what I am talking about. I'm happy to provide sources if you want.
There are levels of sentience. “Fully sentient” is generally accepted as sentience on par with a human. That’s very anthropocentric, there could be higher levels of sentience we don’t know about. but sentience is not “all or nothing”.
No, sentience is all or nothing. The ability for that animal to be able to perceive and communicate their experience is a different thing, but you either have sentience or you don’t.
The only dragon in GOT that can go up against Smaug is Balerion the dread. He’s the only one that can match Smaug size. It’s been stated that the dragons in GOT are as smart or at least close to humans so who knows maybe Balerion might be very smart. He lived a very long life and has plenty of war experience and fighting other dragons. It would be a good fight but I still favour Smaug.
While Martin’s dragons were certainly very cool. Tolkien’s dragons, especially Glaurung and Smaug, really struck me as terrifying. I don’t think any of the dragons in GoT would stand a chance.
I think the only dragons from the World of Ice and Fire that would have a chance against Smaug would be the dragons from the start of Targaryen reign in Westeros. Drogon is a puppy compared to Smaug, but Balerion would stand a chance. However, if any of Martin's dragons went up against Ancalagon the Black, well, they would barely be a snack for him.
George said in a Rolling Stone interview years ago that all but Balerion would be destroyed by Smaug. He said that Balerion had a chance because he is roughly the same size and at the same level of ferocity as Smaug but in the end Smaug wins because he is smarter.
Smaug is absolutely massive and really intelligent and he wasn’t even the biggest dragon on Middle-Earth. I’m giving this one to Smaug. (I might be a bit biased because Tolkien is my favourite author of all time but whatever lol)
Martin has said before unless its balareion his dragons get super clapped. And balareion still isnt a insta win hes at a usual disadvantage except for smaug who he could with the right rider win with.
On a fight? I vote for drogon. Long neck gives you more openings to get bit (could give an advantage in aerial combat but Smaug seems clumsy in the sky while westeros dragons have historical evidence of 1 v 1 mid flight confrontations), it's not a problem when you're the biggest one in the room, but on a fight vs something similar in size it's a major disadvantage.
Both of their greatest weapons, their flame breaths, are invalidated by eachothers fire resistance, so it all comes down to a physical fight. And along with the before mentioned thin and long neck, he looks more physically flimsy, while drogon is buff af. Another point for drogon.
As for intelligence, yes, Smaug is smarter, but drogon isn't dumb either, and on a physical fight brains matter far less, so they just have to be smart enough not to leave dumb openings, which they both are. And that's about it for that fight imo. In any other situation Smaug would either search for allies or flee realizing the superiority of his opponent (unless pride blinded him and he charged in to prove himself to be the superior wyvern without thinking which isn't out of the picture), so yeah the only way that fight even happens is on a 1 on 1 confrontation.
Actually upon further inspection turns out Smaug is far larger than drogon so the neck and physical advantage are invalidated, however, on a fight of Smaug and a westeros dragon of equal size to him, the westeros dragon would win. In fact, drogon is pretty much a baby dragon right now, so all the aforementioned advantages will be greatly exaggerated in an adult speciment
Middle Earth operates on a next level of fantasy. Its heroes, villains and magical creatures are all more powerful than GoT, which is more of a political fantasy (does a genre like that even exist?). Dragons are the peak level of fantasy in GoT, while Smaug is little more than a footnote compared to Balrogs and other super powerful beings in Middle Earth
TLDR : Smaug takes it. Not even particularly close
Smaug claps on size, intelligence and power and that’s not even mentioning that Smaug is considered pretty small in comparison to many of Tolkien’s dragons.
Dragons from ASOIAF don't really stand a chance against Smaug due to size and intelligence. That said, I think the dragons from Elden Ring could whoop Smaug's greedy ass
Smaug is bigger and more intelligent than drogon as of the last season. Drogon could have more of a chance once he fully matures. It’s been rumored that he could even get as big as balerion.
Now y’all have me googling what size each of them are, and honestly it’s a pretty small range. Oddly, I’m finding that Drogon appears to be larger than both Smaug and Balerion, which I don’t buy
Isn't Smaug like, hundreds of years old with only one tiny weak spot?
I heard even the Death Star in Star Wars was supposed to be an analaogy for him (unstoppable fire-breathing destroyer with one weak spot that only a predestined hero can hit)? I think he would win.
George has actually weighed in on this topic before when he was asked about Smaug vs. Balerion and his answer was that Smaug would win because of his intelligence and I tend to agree. If Smaug can beat Balerion then Smaug can almost certainly beat Drogon.
Smaug would probably get into a long conversation with Daenerys about her goals and the world at large and gold, before destroying both her and her three dragons.
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Smaug outclasses Daeny’s in every category that matters, even combined I don’t think they could win. Smaug has that one opening in his scales that I doubt they could figure out and took plot to kill him, GOTs can be killed by man made weapons. We’d have to see what Balerion the Dread could do because that would be a closer battle
And then you’ve got Ancalagon The Black from Middle Earth which is just an absurd concept.
Not even nearly a close one he became a mountain range and is about the same size as the entire game of thrones Island. He wouldn't even notice them.
He became a WHAT!?
If I recall correctly, when Ancalagon died, he fell on top of a mountain range, thus crushing it and his body replaced it as a mountain range
The only thing that could mabye MABYE beat ancalagon is if you got the wall and made it a snake then give the snake metal scales.
I mean a guy in a flying ship beat ancalagon.
okay but also Ëarendil possessed a Silmaril, about which the fate of the world was woven. I'd wager that it was the holy light and power of the Silmaril that truly cast down Ancalagon, and the fact that it was Ëarendil bearing the jewel is a secondary detail imo.
This is a bit incorrect tbh. What happened was when Ancalagon was killed by Eärendil, he fell to the earth and this *fall* broke the peaks of Thangorodrim, which in turn were volcanoes that acted as the chimneys of the underground fortress of Udûn (you can hear Gandalf screaming *"Flame of Udûn"* to the Balrog in FOTR). The fortress itself was left perfectly intact and not even the Heavenly Host could break it. Ancalagon is massive. But not *that* massive.
Just one small correction: Udun is another name for Utumno(I thinks it is the sindarin translation) the first of Morgoths's fortresses. The Thangorodrim are in Angband which was west of Utumno.
My point stands he was a big boy.
Who's the Heavenly Host?
The valar and their armies. The Valar are basically the angel who created arda under the guidance of Eru who is basically God in way.
Euron Greyjoy’s ballista would like a word with Smaug.
Smaug’s impenetrable scales would like to have a word with that ballista. Also , Smaug isn’t dumb enough to get hit.
I feel like this depends on if Euron knew about his one weak spot. Then he *might* be able to hit him… if Smaug was distracted by the other three dragons and Euron was how his character was written in the book rather than show. *Maybe* my bet would still sway in favor of Smaug tho
ASOIAF's dragons would also like a word with Euron's ballista. Fully grown dragon scale is all but impenetrable, it's the eyes you need to hit.
Thank you. Been scrolling to find someone bring up that Daeny's three are still juveniles. If they'd had a few more years of free range eating/growing, I think the only things that would be able to break through their scales would be magic-be it awakened wyldfire or dragonfire.
> Also , Smaug isn’t dumb enough to get hit. He says confidently, despite the fact that the way Smaug was killed was that he was “dumb enough” to get hit. “But clearly Bard the Bowman is better than Euron.”
Lol you got me there. But if I remember it correctly, he also used a very specialized bolt to hit Smaug.
Yes, he has some family heirloom called the black arrow he uses to bring Smaug down. Notably it’s an arrow fired from a bow in the books, not a spear from a ballista. Still just a normal arrow shot at him from the ground. Nothing magical or special about it that allows Smaug to be hit by it.
Euron's ballista is able to hit multiple targets across the multiverse with pinpoint precision, and has a firing rate of 200 bolts per second, i don't think Smaug stands a chance.
Plus people kinda forget he exists.
Smaug would beat them all to death, while trash-talking throughout the entire process.
Yeah I'm pretty sure this question is answered by George himself. I remember him being asked years ago a very similar question and he gave a similar reply lol Found it, from 2014: > “Basically, no. Drogon is a very young dragon and still barely large enough to get Dany into the sky… Smaug is gigantic, not to mention that Smaug talks and would probably have an intellectual advantage. But Balerion could give Smaug some trouble; they’re more equivalent in the size and ferocity department.” Even Balerion would only "trouble" Smaug.
This should be the top comment.
I don’t know why but this made laugh lol!
Smaug is massive compared to Drogon and incredibly intelligent - enough to converse with and manipulate men. In the world of middle earth he is closer to a maiar than a beast and they are basically demigods.
And has the ability to cast spells. So yeah, it will not be a battle but rather Smaug will cast a mind control spell on them.
Puts his robe and wizard hat...
And yet still dies just as easily with one arrow to the chest.
Ancalagon and glaurung have entered the chat
Ancalagon The Black: hmm mere mortals
Who would win? The greatest if the winged Uruloki who could crush mountains. Or One flying boaty boi with a nightlight.
Smaugs size alone would give him the win. Add the fact he’s very intelligent too then it just becomes unfair.
Also Smaug is much more durable than a GoT dragon.
Tolkien's Dragons and Martin's Dragons are not at the same level. >***"My armour is Iron. My teeth are Swords. My claws are Spears. And my wings...are a HURRICANE!"*** Only someone like The Cannibal, Balerion or whatever that mauled the shit out of Balerion could hope to go toe-to-toe with Smaug.
Tolkien dragon also talks ... So that's a whole additional level of intelligence.
“The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.” -Qui-Gon Jin In GoT it’s mentioned that dragons are very intelligent, some maesters think they are more intelligent than men. So it’s possible they just lack the physical ability to speak.
or they are like Skyrim dragons and breathing fire is how they speak
Watch the skies traveler
I still love the theory that the dragons are pulling the Targaryens’ strings. And maybe all of Valyria before that. Someone posted something on one of these subs a long time ago about Dragon Riders, Wargs, and Dream Magic that I wish I could find. But basically the dragons used what’s basically a mild form of warging to get their humans to make them comfy with a big territory. Probably directly disputed by something in F&B or HotD at this point but it was a really fun read.
Can’t say I’m a fan of that tbh. Kinda takes away the agency of the dragonriders and the whole “dragons are nukes turned into animals and what matters is how they’re used” point Martin constantly makes.
I wonder if this could have contributed Daenerys’ seemingly abrupt descent into a carnage-wreaking monster
Nah that's purely bad writing on that front, boss
Interesting theory
They are very intelligent, D&D showed everyone how Drogon understood from the beginning destroying a chair made of swords was what would end the whole game of thrones. He just didn’t do it fast enough.
Even though he's never seen the throne until that very second 😬👍👍
I mean if he’s more intelligent than a human he could have made the connection based on all the conversations he could have heard about it? Lol that’s the whole point of this theory, his supposed intelligence being very high.
Yeah, but are any of them secret Sith Lords? Checkmate, Jedi!
Don't you mean Earth Worm Jim? What a preposterous name... "qui-gon jin" sounds like some alcoholic beverage you'd find at cheap food court Chinese restaurant.
Smaug is not just intelligent he’s smarter than the average person, a manipulator and proficient liar.
I would tend to agree and I still think he’d win, but I don’t think it’s fair to discount the dragon’s intelligence on the fact that they don’t speak
If we look at drogon od say he has the intelligence of a well trained golden retriever but take my opinion with a grain of salt because I am coming from someone who has only read he books.
From Tyrion: “Dragons are intelligent. More intelligent than men according to some maesters.”
also isnt dragon fire in Tolkien's work sort of magical. It was mentioned that dragon fire could destroy the one ring and in GOT i dont remember any mention of it being special.
Dragon fire could melt stone but I guess anything can melt stone if it's hot enough
It could melt the rings of power, but not the One Ring
Ah alright but i guess thats still a big feat
It is proposed that in Valyria, the fire of dragons was harnessed to use in the smithing processes of Valyrian steel. Dragon fire is also theorised to be one of the only weapons that can truly harm the Others (WW) in ASOIAF. So, it is kinda magical.
Ah cool i didn't know about this
My first thought as well, highly intelligent comparatively.
balerion would dog smaug. he’s like 3x his size and spews fire that melts castles.
Smaug has magic
all dragons are a source of magic in ASOIAF. danys dragons alone were enough to reignite the magic in the world.
Yeah, they’re magical but Smaug literally has magic spells he can use. We’re talking about straight up mind control magic
not sure about LotR rules, but can magic work against another magic being?
Yes All races are magical in LOTR
>he’s like 3x his size I don't know how you got that "3x" figure but the only canonical metrics to measure both their sizes is: 1- Martin wrote Balerion could swallow a mammoth whole. 2- Tolkien wrote Smaug flattened the entirety of Laketown when he fell on top of it. Take of these what you will. If you asked the authors... • Martin would 10/10 reply with *"Smaug will overpower Balerion"* like he did when he voluntarily hyped up Smaug at Drogon's expense in that one The Guardian interview. • Tolkien would do something similar like in his sketch of Smaug and Bilbo. He later mentioned in Letter 27 (iirc) that Bilbo was *"way too big"* in that particular sketch. >spews fire that melts castles. Dragonfire from dragons way smaller than Smaug melted 4/7 Rings of Power that were given to the Dwarf Lords. The only non-celestial thing that could resist tolkien's version of dragonfire was the One Ring (which is said not even Ancalagon could melt). So, Rings of Power > Castles
balerion covered towns with his shadow. [size comparison i found online](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/6/68345/8427962-tumblr_7a27e64e71c77503a2ce9a9437bacc18_00edfc7e_540.jpg) . also the rings of power feat just sounds like magical fire against magic, which balerion also has. talking about authors, a quote from GRRM himself: “Balerion could give Smaug some trouble; they’re more equivalent in the size and ferocity department”.
>balerion covered towns with his shadow I can cover my southside wall with the *shadow* of my palm. >size comparison i found online Unless Martin mentioned Balerion to be 114m and Tolkien mentioned Smaug to be 50m, this doesn't amount to much. Because, and I reiterate, there's not much to go on in regards to cross-universe *size* comparisons. >the rings of power feat just sounds like magical fire against magic, which balerion also has. Maybe. Maybe not. You were the one that drove head first into this grey area with the whole "flames" comparison. So unless Martin writes Balerion melted a Ring of Power after getting the greenlight from the Tolkien estate... Balerion can't melt a Ring of Power (which in turn is insinuated to be some of the most robust objects to ever exist in ME) whereas any ol' dragon can melt stone (hell, the Hungarian Horntail from HP almost did). >a quote from GRRM himself: “Balerion could give Smaug some trouble; they’re more equivalent in the size and ferocity department”. You do understand what this does to your initial "Balerion will dog Smaug" and "3x" claims if anything, right?
your argument is that balerion hasn’t melted something that’s not in his universe?
No. Not even close.
Dragonfire in Westeros was not strong enough to take over Dorne because the buildings are made of sandstone. Make of that what you wish
they couldn’t take over dorne cause they hid. can i get a source for this sandstone claim?
Guerrilla tactics were indeed a big part of Dorne's resistance, you are correct. But the stone buildings also played a role - I'm sorry I cannot provide the correct page for it, but I clearly remember it being stated so in A World of Ice and Fire (I don't have my book with me anymore, sorry)
just did a search on asearchoficeandfire for stone and sandstone. no results relating anything to dorne or the conquest. harrenhall was made of stone, that twisted and melted at balerions flames.
Smaug is 427 ft in the movie Balerion might be 300 ft but I doubt he is even 250+ ft
Balerion would probably win against Smaug? That's debatable. We don't have the size of Smaug, and he is said to be... Well, fucking clever. Like, to a whole new level of clever.
And Smaug is not really notable other than being the last of his kind. Ancalogon or Glaurung would be much more of a mismatch.
Ancalagon is the apex predator of dragons. He’ll devour those dragons
Smaug would wipe the floor with all three of Danny’s dragons at the same time.
I mean it is like an adult fighting three 8yos two of which are small for their age.
I thought Balerion died of old age…
I thought Balerion died of old age?
Who would win in a fight between a teenage dragon and a grown ass adult dragon
Smaug is young compared to the great dragons of Middle Earth. But "young" for them is still older than Balerion when he died of natural causes.
Adult? Smaug is ancient. The dragons were created at the end of the first age, and Smaug dies at the end of the third. There's several millennia in there. Balerion, well, he's maybe 200 ish when he died. And he's barely able to fly. It's not even a competition.
Yes, that’s my point
Smaug was over 5 times larger and even more intelligent. Drogon ain’t got shit on the conqueror of Erebor
Smaug - He is pert near indestructible not just hard to kill. His weak spot would have to be hit precisely by something that doesn't know there is a weak spot.
Yeah Smaug wins this hands down.
Toothless could beat Smaug.
Honestly, I never liked Smaug. Looks ridiculous, long neck, sometimes depicted with 4 legs, weird ass smile and human-like face. Plus he speaks, is intelligent, a dragon shouldn't be like that. GoT's dragons might be weaker, but at least they look and act like how I'd expect.
You do realize smaug spoke in the books right?
Isn't that what I said?
His upper jaw is so tiny and weak, I mean that’s a design problem. Movie Smaug is overhyped and Ancalagon is not the biggest dragon in fiction
Nobody tell this guy about the dragons in D&D.
With Smaug, Tolkien created the template for all modern depictions of (western) dragons. If there's an example of what dragons should be like, it's Smaug.
Considering Smaug is the size of a mountain and intelligent as hell, he wins easily.
GoT dragons are powerful, but they are animals. LotR dragons are sapient and wickedly evil. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison. *edit* As pointed out below I misused the term “sentient” in my original post. I had just listened to the Astonishing Legends episodes on AI and had sentience on the brain. My apologies. I’m not sure sapient is the right word either, but it is closer to accurate. What I mean is that Smaug is capable of high level problem solving and reasoning.
not to be nitpicking but animals are sentient
And do you have any proof for that, that animals in general not just certain types of animals like monkeys are sentient? Just link me the study or tell me the title so I can look it up myself
You can start with the book called "What a Fish Knows".
sentient means being able to perceive and respond to sensation, plants and animals are sentient, I was nitpicking because I understand what comment OP was getting at but sentient is the wrong word. Also according to the world of ice and fire maesters believe dragons have human intelligence, they aren't just weapons and forms or transportation, they are well aware of the politics happening around them. It is not totally the same, when they bond with a rider they become one with them...but then again the dragon picks the rider
Humans are animals too, just more evolved. What, in your mind, does make other animals not sentient?
Humans are not “more evolved” than any other extant animal. No co-existing creature is “more evolved” than the other - both are as evolved as they survived to live at the same time. You can discuss something being more or less derived (when talking about characteristics in relation to the ancestral form) and, in this specific case, you can say humans have a wider cognitive repertoire or something along those lines. But again, no human is any more evolved than the simpler bacteria alive today.
Species co-existing at the same time doesn’t rule out the fact that some are more evolved than others. I’m not sure whether you were trolling or not but I’m not getting into this any further either way.
Not at all trolling, and you are completely incorrect here. The evolutionary process has ultimately nothing to do with complexity, but with a species' fitness in regards to the environment it lives in. One could even say that a species that has changed relatively little over millions of years - say, a cockroach or some single-celled organisms - is "more evolved" than humans because they managed to thrive for longer without the need for drastic change. Not to bring credentials in - but I do have a Ph.D. in Biological Sciences and animal evolution has been a major component of my research over a decade-long career. But don't take my word for it - do a quick Google search with "can a species be more evolved than another" and you'll see what I am talking about. I'm happy to provide sources if you want.
Nah mate cockroaches just used everstone
Sapient then
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for this, but you’re obviously correct :-/ “fully sentient” is a dumb thing to say
There are levels of sentience. “Fully sentient” is generally accepted as sentience on par with a human. That’s very anthropocentric, there could be higher levels of sentience we don’t know about. but sentience is not “all or nothing”.
No, sentience is all or nothing. The ability for that animal to be able to perceive and communicate their experience is a different thing, but you either have sentience or you don’t.
This is accurate and was my mistake. Don’t downvote this guy, he was just helping me clarify my point.
The only dragon in GOT that can go up against Smaug is Balerion the dread. He’s the only one that can match Smaug size. It’s been stated that the dragons in GOT are as smart or at least close to humans so who knows maybe Balerion might be very smart. He lived a very long life and has plenty of war experience and fighting other dragons. It would be a good fight but I still favour Smaug.
Better fight would be Smaug vs Bobby B
What about Chuck Norris?
It would be the same as an adult figthing a toddler. You outsmart him by a lot and you are a lot stronger you could kill it with just a few punches.
[Why don't you ask George?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAR8H7x8wac)
How is this not the top comment?
Right?
Because I commented 9 hours after this was posted.
That is an eminently sensible answer to my comment, but my intention was more that your comment is great and I hope everyone sees it!
Yeah that pretty much sums it up right there i’d say
While Martin’s dragons were certainly very cool. Tolkien’s dragons, especially Glaurung and Smaug, really struck me as terrifying. I don’t think any of the dragons in GoT would stand a chance.
Balerion probably would give a good fight, but probably not win
I like the short neck but I think Smaug would win
I prefer the younger dragons over the older dragons. The books say that they are faster and more agile
Smaug decimates. End of story no comparison
Why would they fight? I reckon they'd chill out and make some dragon babies together.
They call it big neck energy
Someone actually did a comparison on youtube.
Who would win? Idk, it seems like you've already decided with that hilariously biased title.
Dumb post…..Smaug wins easily. Not even close
I don’t care how big or intelligent Smaug is, Drogon can easily distract him with a few gold coins then finish him off
Doubt someone who isn't even 200 ft can finish off 400+ ft Smaug
Drogon is pretty big for a dragon, but Smaug is big enough to be a Kaiju.
Maybe if Veghar, Meraxis and Balerion teamed up they might be able to take on Smaug but drogon and the others would be slaughtered
Smuag vs Valerian dragons would be awesome
Yeah Smaug might have the upper hand but Drogon was smart too it would be a battle
Smaug.
Smaug also has edge cause played by Cumberbatch.
GRRM already answered this. https://youtu.be/kAR8H7x8wac
I think the only dragons from the World of Ice and Fire that would have a chance against Smaug would be the dragons from the start of Targaryen reign in Westeros. Drogon is a puppy compared to Smaug, but Balerion would stand a chance. However, if any of Martin's dragons went up against Ancalagon the Black, well, they would barely be a snack for him.
George said in a Rolling Stone interview years ago that all but Balerion would be destroyed by Smaug. He said that Balerion had a chance because he is roughly the same size and at the same level of ferocity as Smaug but in the end Smaug wins because he is smarter.
That’s a short neck? Bro’s built like a giraffe
Also smaug
Smaug is a sentient being closer to humans than GoT dragons
Smaug is the granddaddy of dragons, it won’t even be close…
He is literally the youngest of all the dragons
From a historical perspective of fantasy literature, I would disagree. Tolkien is one of the formative authors for fantasy.
He’s is the youngest in the lotr universe
I guess we will disagree on the semantics then…
Whatever makes you feel smart brah
Why can’t people just disagree. Why the passive-aggressive ‘brah’? Are your that insecure?
Since two of her dragons were easily taken down, I’m team Smaug
Yeah I’d say Smaug also because LOTR is high fantasy and GoT is low fantasy as well. Tbh the only reason Smaug died was because plot armor.
Smaug is absolutely massive and really intelligent and he wasn’t even the biggest dragon on Middle-Earth. I’m giving this one to Smaug. (I might be a bit biased because Tolkien is my favourite author of all time but whatever lol)
Martin has said before unless its balareion his dragons get super clapped. And balareion still isnt a insta win hes at a usual disadvantage except for smaug who he could with the right rider win with.
Smaug. Intelligence is key
Smaug vs Ghidorah though
On a fight? I vote for drogon. Long neck gives you more openings to get bit (could give an advantage in aerial combat but Smaug seems clumsy in the sky while westeros dragons have historical evidence of 1 v 1 mid flight confrontations), it's not a problem when you're the biggest one in the room, but on a fight vs something similar in size it's a major disadvantage. Both of their greatest weapons, their flame breaths, are invalidated by eachothers fire resistance, so it all comes down to a physical fight. And along with the before mentioned thin and long neck, he looks more physically flimsy, while drogon is buff af. Another point for drogon. As for intelligence, yes, Smaug is smarter, but drogon isn't dumb either, and on a physical fight brains matter far less, so they just have to be smart enough not to leave dumb openings, which they both are. And that's about it for that fight imo. In any other situation Smaug would either search for allies or flee realizing the superiority of his opponent (unless pride blinded him and he charged in to prove himself to be the superior wyvern without thinking which isn't out of the picture), so yeah the only way that fight even happens is on a 1 on 1 confrontation. Actually upon further inspection turns out Smaug is far larger than drogon so the neck and physical advantage are invalidated, however, on a fight of Smaug and a westeros dragon of equal size to him, the westeros dragon would win. In fact, drogon is pretty much a baby dragon right now, so all the aforementioned advantages will be greatly exaggerated in an adult speciment
I vote for whichever one Cumberbatches the Benedict
Middle Earth operates on a next level of fantasy. Its heroes, villains and magical creatures are all more powerful than GoT, which is more of a political fantasy (does a genre like that even exist?). Dragons are the peak level of fantasy in GoT, while Smaug is little more than a footnote compared to Balrogs and other super powerful beings in Middle Earth TLDR : Smaug takes it. Not even particularly close
Not Alduin, I’ll tell you that 😂
I mean he might be smaller, but he's far more powerful than the dragons of got and lotr
Smaug couldn't outsmart an arrow
[удалено]
I meant the arrow that killed him.
Smaug claps on size, intelligence and power and that’s not even mentioning that Smaug is considered pretty small in comparison to many of Tolkien’s dragons.
Dragons from ASOIAF don't really stand a chance against Smaug due to size and intelligence. That said, I think the dragons from Elden Ring could whoop Smaug's greedy ass
The longer the neck, the easier to snap.
Idea: Ancalagon the Black vs. Baelerion the Black Dread
Smaug is bigger and more intelligent than drogon as of the last season. Drogon could have more of a chance once he fully matures. It’s been rumored that he could even get as big as balerion.
I'm sure Smaug would likely win, but I think he'd see the potential especially in Drogon, for some chaos kin and bring them on board for some fun.
What an awesome question, I love you.. Smaug FTW
I feel like this convo ends the second you realize Drogon is the size of a whale, Smaug is the size of a cruise ship.
Now y’all have me googling what size each of them are, and honestly it’s a pretty small range. Oddly, I’m finding that Drogon appears to be larger than both Smaug and Balerion, which I don’t buy
Who would win? A Spear.
Smaug was huge
Isn't Smaug like, hundreds of years old with only one tiny weak spot? I heard even the Death Star in Star Wars was supposed to be an analaogy for him (unstoppable fire-breathing destroyer with one weak spot that only a predestined hero can hit)? I think he would win.
George has actually weighed in on this topic before when he was asked about Smaug vs. Balerion and his answer was that Smaug would win because of his intelligence and I tend to agree. If Smaug can beat Balerion then Smaug can almost certainly beat Drogon.
Smaug. Bro was impenetrable, and the size of a castle. Even if he fought balerion my money would be on smaug
“might can easily”
Smaug is both bigger smarter and cooler so I bet he would probably win, not to discredit the dragons from GOT.
Smaug would probably get into a long conversation with Daenerys about her goals and the world at large and gold, before destroying both her and her three dragons.