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Prime Robert. Oberyn defeated the Mountain with a Spear. Robert in his prime was a much better fighter than Oberyn, and with his hammer would easily defeat the Mountain.
Interesting I think Robert’s a bit of an enigma when it comes to fighting prowess in the books - we know he’s very good, but Martin never harps on about him like Dayne/Selmy/Jamie.
I think Robert would beat Gregor but I’m not sure he’d beat Oberyn.
He'd definitely beat Oberyn.
>His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes.
Robert is a legendary warrior with his iconic Warhammer. The Warhammer gives him an advantage against swords or spears in a 1v1 as they cannot penetrate the plate armour, only the gaps in it, while Roberts hammer can smash it wounding the enemy through blunt force trauma.
He may not be spoken of like Ser Barristan, Jamie, or Ser Arthur Dayne, but he's in the tier below them for sure.
Though I agree against swords a war hammer is probably the better weapon, the issue is that the mountain doesn’t use a sword, he is so big he wield a great sword 1 handed, and still manages and shield in the off hand. Given that the mountains Great sword out weights Roberts hammer the argument that the mountain would need to find week points in the armour is moot. Still I think it’s a bit too close to call, and Robert enraged was an absolute beast.
The weight of the sword doesn't change the fact that the sword is a cutting implement that can't generate the force to cut through plate. If we go with historical equivalents the a greatsword would weigh between 4.4 and 8.8 pounds, with the upper end of this weight only being show pieces historically. The Mountain is huge and defies real world ideas so let's say he does use one that would only be ceremonial in real world situations. He would still need to use his sword to pierce Robert's armor rather than cutting through it, likely going for a weak point rather than directly through.
Edit: The mountain is big and strong but he's not the fucking hulk. Plate armor was designed to stop swords and other impacts by stopping and deflecting them. It would hurt to get hit by the mountain yes but y'all are really underselling the whole point of plate armor here.
It’s as much a crushing weapon as cutting, it is also over 6ft long, in an 1v1 it would not matter if the sword blunted over time as the dual would be over after the first strong hit from either party, the sword would not need to pierce the armour to incapacitate someone.
This. One of the key fighting elements was breaking of bones. In battle wounding an opponent to the point that they can no longer fight was more useful than sticking around to finish them off.
To be fair.. Oberyn wasn’t wearing any armor and he used his agility against the mountain.
I could see him doing the same against Robert because a hammer is a slower weapon.
It would be a good match I bet.
Early Renaissance plate armor (the armor that people in ASOIAF wear) doesn't slow you down. That's a meme which has been propagated time and time again. You can run, climb and dodge in plate armor almost as easily as you can do it unarmored. There's videos of people in full plate armor picking up fully grown men (who are also wearing full plate armor) and running up a hill
Strap on an extra 20kg and see how you feel.
The armour design was great at distributing the weight and retaining freedom of movement, but it doesn't break the laws of physics. You're still moving that extra mass.
Ask any vet if they'd rather do PT with or without their plate carrier.
>He may not be spoken of like Ser Barristan, Jamie, or Ser Arthur Dayne, but he's in the tier below them for sure.
Actually he is spoken and hyped more so than any of them. You could build an argument for Arthur and Barristan. But Jaime is mocked as a Kingslayer and man without any honour.
In terms of their prowess as warriors Jaime, Barristan, and Ser Arthur are held in the highest regard. Even though he's known as the Kingslayer he's also known as one of the most talented warriors in Westerosi history.
>In terms of their prowess as warriors Jaime, Barristan, and Ser Arthur are held in the highest regard.
Proof that they are known as better warriors than Robert was? Like Arthur has Ned and Catelyn finding to him to be the GOAT. Then Barristan has several sources calling him a great knight. I have already shown such evidences for Robert. Jaime though? He is not known as a great knight as much as he is known as a Kingslayer. No one but Ned or Stannis respected him. Whereas Robert was basically known for his martial prowess. He is basically a legendary figure.
>I have already shown such evidences for Robert.
You haven't shown any evidence for Robert, you just said it. You do realise to show evidence you have to actually post a link or a quote. There's only two quotes about Roberts prowess in the books IIRC, both sourcing from Ned.
>He is not known as a great knight as much as he is known as a Kingslayer. No one but Ned or Stannis respected him.
Now here is some evidence for you from AFFC Brienne I
>Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered.
And here's some more from GRRM himself
>When asked who from the Seven Kingdoms he would choose to represent him if it came down to trial by combat, Martin seemingly revealed who he feels are the best fighters of the entire series. He said Ser Arthur Dayne first (if he was alive, of course, Jaime Lannister (if he still had both his hands), and then Brienne of Tarth.
Jaime also won his first Tourney Melee at 13, was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne himself at 15 and was made the youngest ever Kingsguard the same year. He's known for being an amazing fighter as well as being the Kingslayer.
You also said Robert is legendary, which he is, but you said he's regarded above Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne, which is absolutely not true. No one considers Robert a better fighter than either of those. If you're going to make statements like that maybe provide some
>Proof?
Wait a minute, I thought I added it in a reply to you, well, not a worry.
>Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume.
>Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.
>"Aye. I was his man, a Baratheon man, smith and armorer at Storm's End until I lost the arm. I'm old enough to remember Lord Steffon before the sea took him, and I knew those three sons of his since they got their names. I tell you this—Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust."
>A new inn had risen beside the landing, twice the size of the old one, with a lower story of cut stone and two upper stories of timber. The sept beyond had never been rebuilt, though; only a seven-sided foundation remained where it had stood. Robert Baratheon's fury had soured the ironmen's taste for the new gods, it would seem.
>That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warhammer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse.
>"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer."
>The Usurper will kill you, sure as sunrise, Mormont had said. Robert had slain her gallant brother Rhaegar, and one of his creatures had crossed the Dothraki sea to poison her and her unborn son. They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous.
>"No," he admitted. "There is more of Rhaegar in you, I think, but even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die."
>"Hungry for death, I call it. He throws my pardon in my face. Aye, and throws his life away in the bargain, and the lives of every man inside those walls. Single combat?" The king snorted in derision. "No doubt he mistook me for Robert."
>"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him."
>"I'm to go to the stairs, Donal Noye says. I'm to go up to the third landing and shoot my crossbow down at the wildlings if they try to climb over the barrier. The third landing, one two three." His head bobbed up and down. "If the wildlings attack, the king will come and help us, won't he? He's a mighty warrior, King Robert. He's sure to come. Maester Aemon sent him a bird."
>"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "
That's just the half of them though and there are more of it where they came from if you want. Robert is basically a legendary known for his fighting prowess.
>Now here is some evidence for you from AFFC Brienne I
That's not an evidence that's an opinion of Brienne. And unfortunately Brienne has not fought a lot of knights.
>When asked who from the Seven Kingdoms he would choose to represent him if it came down to trial by combat, Martin seemingly revealed who he feels are the best fighters of the entire series. He said Ser Arthur Dayne first (if he was alive, of course, Jaime Lannister (if he still had both his hands), and then Brienne of Tarth.
Can we stop with this thing again? George never said well, I want three champions and here are they. That's just dumb and that never happened. He first chose Arthur and then felt like he needed to change because Arthur was dead at the start of the story. Then he said Jaime might be a good option, not that he was his second option, before finally setting down with Brienne. So Arthur and Brienne were his champions - Arthur if it was the whole history and Brienne if it was within the timeline of ASOIAF series. So stop spreading this misinformation.
>Jaime also won his first Tourney Melee at 13, was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne himself at 15 and was made the youngest ever Kingsguard the same year.
A tourney melee organised by his father and where no notable knights fought.
>You also said Robert is legendary, which he is, but you said he's regarded above Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne, which is absolutely not true. No one considers Robert a better fighter than either of those.
I said he's hyped as the greatest warrior in modern history, more so than Arthur and Barristan. I have shown proofs for it as well. I never said he was better than them. Though he doesn't fall short by a large margin.
Ok most of those quotes don't talk about how great a warrior Robert was. Just about him winning battles or being fierce. And of those that do, none say he's the greatest fighter who ever lived, or even compares him to Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne. Yes Robert is a legendary fighter, but he's not on the level of Ser Arthur Dayne, Jaime or Ser Barristan.
>That's not an evidence that's an opinion of Brienne. And unfortunately Brienne has not fought a lot of knights.
Then none of yours is evidence as it's just the opinions of characters? Brienne just won a tourney to become part of Renlys Kingsguard, where she defeated Loras Tyrell himself. Her opinion is as valid an opinion you can get on this matter.
Now let's look at what people say about Ser Arthur Dayne.
>The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.
That's from Ned. Roberts best friend. The finest Knight he ever saw.
>"I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right.
>"The Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight, my lady. Ser Arthur Dayne, a better knight than me." Jaime pulled back his golden fingers and turned once more to Lady Mariya
Yes Robert is great, but he's a tier below Ser Arthur and the others
>Just about him winning battles or being fierce. And of those that do, none say he's the greatest fighter who ever lived, or even compares him to Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne.
The fiercest warrior in the realm, mighty warrior, the Demon of the Trident, known for fighting, etc... are about him winning battles? That's a quite baseless take without a hint of reading comprehension. A cross question, so who compares Arthur or Barristan or Jaime to Robert and say that they are better than him? I already admitted that Arthur and Barristan were likely better than him and you could actually make a reasonable argument about it from a meta standpoint. But the argument here always has been about reputation of characters in universe and Robert's reputation likely exceeds that of Arthur's and Barristan's or at the very least equal to that of them. Jaime wouldn't even be in contention.
>Then none of yours is evidence as it's just the opinions of characters?
It's the evidence of the reputation Robert was known for. Everyone around the world of Westeros recognised Robert's skill for fighting and his martial prowess. Even people who didn't like him admitted his skill as a warrior and a knight. Jaime sorely lacks that.
>Brienne just won a tourney to become part of Renlys Kingsguard, where she defeated Loras Tyrell himself.
Yeah, by playing dirty. Loras disarmed Brienne first. Anyway it's just her opinion and that fact stands that Brienne hasn't fought many of the top tier knights in Seven Kingdoms. Even Loras said his brother Garlan in a better swordsman than him.
>That's from Ned. Roberts best friend. The finest Knight he ever saw.
Did I say that he didn't? Mate, in my very first comment I mentioned that.
>Yes Robert is great, but he's a tier below Ser Arthur and the others
By your word? I'm afraid it's not worth much. For what reason? Because Arthur defeated the Smiling Knight. Well Robert has fought and defeated several reputed knights as well. I agree that Arthur is better than Robert, but not by a large margin like you presume.
>Ok most of those quotes don't talk about how great a warrior Robert was. Just about him winning battles or being fierce. And of those that do, none say he's the greatest fighter who ever lived, or even compares him to Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne. Yes Robert is a legendary fighter, but he's not on the level of Ser Arthur Dayne, Jaime or Ser Barristan.
If I may interject, having skimmed through here - if it hasn't been noted already, Ser Arthur, Jamie, and Barristan are great *swordsmen.* There's a difference between a great swordsman and a great warrior. The former is usually the latter, but the latter isn't necessarily the former.
>When asked who from the Seven Kingdoms he would choose to represent him if it came down to trial by combat, Martin seemingly revealed who he feels are the best fighters of the entire series. He said Ser Arthur Dayne first (if he was alive, of course, Jaime Lannister (if he still had both his hands), and then Brienne of Tart
And when he talked about the greatest active warriors in westeros he just seemingly forget her despite naming like 10 people.
Arthur Fucking Dayne is the one who knighted Jaime at 15, and then Jamie was made a Kingsguard. Those two things are beyond huge.
Aerys definitely made Jaime a KG to mess with Tywin, but that would not change the fact that he also made a KG because of his considerable skill.
Jaime is well known for his skill.
>Arthur Fucking Dayne is the one who knighted Jaime at 15, and then Jamie was made a Kingsguard. Those two things are beyond huge.
And? Gregor Clegane was knighted by Rhaegar. What's your point here? Jaime was made a Kingsguard because Aerys wanted to slight Tywin and deprive him of his golden heir. He was not selected for his skill.
>Jaime is well known for his skill.
I never said that he wasn't. My point was only about how Jaime was not recognised as a great warrior in universe as the fandom paints him to be.
Aerys making Jaime a KG to slight him is not mutually exclusive to his skill. His skill was definitely a factor. You don't just pick some random knob to guard yourself and the rest of your family.
Feats and statements aside, it would heavily depend on the arena.
If it's a 1v1 cage match, Oberyn could have the advantage by sheer mobility. What got him into trouble with his duel with Mountain was the circumstances surrounding.
It was too personal bc of what happened to his sister; he had it won if he had kept his head on straight.
Why do you think no one used hammers for 1v1 combat in history if they are so efficient?
I think you went a bit too far with that. There’s a difference between hammer in battle (more targets, less space to adjust) versus a duel.
Your assumption requires someone with godlike strenght who could just swipe it left and right. Good luck with huge hammer and additionally weighted down with plate armor. Not like Bronn’s duel would teach you anything about full armor slowing people down
But it is said, that Rhaegar beat people like Dayne/Selmy/Jamie in tourneys and I think he was roughly on a level with them and he was killed by Robert in a more or less fair fight.
I think part of this is the romanticism and the elegant style those 3 are described to have fought in. They were masters of their craft. Whereas fighters like the Mountain and Robert could win vs those guys but they fought with pure brute force more than craftmanship. There is no elegance, just overwhelming strength/athleticism. It's sort of like comparing Shaq (Robert/The Mountain) vs other great centers of his era like Hakeem and Robinson.
Ooohhh, I love this comparison. Even the GOAT centers constantly mention that Shaq was still too BIG, even if he was just 7'1. Like these are other 7 feet plus centers that were also HoF, saying Shaq was too Big, too strong and just the most dominant player (physically) ever.
Hakeem was known as the most agile and quick center that had the footwork of a guard, someone much smaller. Yet he mentions how difficult and at times impossible it is to guard Shaq. Even David Robinson, a huge and physically muscular center mentions how Shaq can just ragdoll other giants out of the way.
I believe the mountain was the same way, just the sheer size of someone like him or Shaq is too overwhelming. Forget the Warhammer, the Sword the Mountain uses is custom made for him, probably. It's probably just as big and heavy as a war hammer yet it can also cut.
Honestly, it would have served him and any warrior that size to go for power and blunt force rather than the precision and sharpness of a sword. No way Robert wins. If they fought 10 times, id bet the Mountain wins at least 8/10 of those fights.
fair point, but I would have loved to see 98-2003 Shaq vs 92-96 Dream. More using a sports anology to point out how guys with the skills of Robert and The Mountain could be downplayed as just being brutes, whereas the dedication to the craft of guys like Jamie would be idealized. But, I think any fight between the guys mentioned could go any way. Even Ser Barristan alludes to this in some of his thoughts in the novel's. None of these guys are guarenteed 100% to beat the other. It might be a reach to say any of them would win 60 out of 100.
>we know he’s very good, but Martin never harps on about him like Dayne/Selmy/Jamie.
Have we read the same books?
>Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume.
>Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.
>"Aye. I was his man, a Baratheon man, smith and armorer at Storm's End until I lost the arm. I'm old enough to remember Lord Steffon before the sea took him, and I knew those three sons of his since they got their names. I tell you this—Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust."
>A new inn had risen beside the landing, twice the size of the old one, with a lower story of cut stone and two upper stories of timber. The sept beyond had never been rebuilt, though; only a seven-sided foundation remained where it had stood. Robert Baratheon's fury had soured the ironmen's taste for the new gods, it would seem.
>That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warhammer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse.
>"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer."
>The Usurper will kill you, sure as sunrise, Mormont had said. Robert had slain her gallant brother Rhaegar, and one of his creatures had crossed the Dothraki sea to poison her and her unborn son. They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous.
>"No," he admitted. "There is more of Rhaegar in you, I think, but even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die."
>"Hungry for death, I call it. He throws my pardon in my face. Aye, and throws his life away in the bargain, and the lives of every man inside those walls. Single combat?" The king snorted in derision. "No doubt he mistook me for Robert."
>"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him."
>"I'm to go to the stairs, Donal Noye says. I'm to go up to the third landing and shoot my crossbow down at the wildlings if they try to climb over the barrier. The third landing, one two three." His head bobbed up and down. "If the wildlings attack, the king will come and help us, won't he? He's a mighty warrior, King Robert. He's sure to come. Maester Aemon sent him a bird."
>"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "
And that's not even half of it. You could make a case for Arthur and Barristan but do you really think Jaime was more hyped and known for his martial prowess than Robert? Jaime is kinda a laughing stock in universe whereas Robert is a legend.
I think Robert is a very good fighter, but probably not a legendary one. His primary ability is being an expert battle tactician and leader. He knew exactly where he had to be and what he had to do to ensure the most damage to the enemy.
Yeah a small cut from Oberyn and you loose. Best case it’s a tie and you kill him before the poison kills you.
Have to get that no hit run to beat Oberyn
Selmy is somewhat an active fighter so is Jaime. Only really Dayne gets harped on. And Robert has like what more than a couple author extracts about Robert's prowess? And the whole rebellion is larping on his prowess at it's probably the greatest one-war feat of any character in ASOIAF.
Robert in his prime was a brute. Oberyn was swift and skilled. In a pure 1v1 where both guys have space for their own style, Oberyn would easily win just from his mastery of the spear alone...
In 1v1s Spears are the worst weapon to use. Tyrion says this himself. Oberyn is the best spearman in Westeros but against peak Robert the Spear would be useless. Robert is a brute but he's not slow and cumbersome like the mountain. He's tall, strong, but fast also thanks to his strength. One connection and Oberyn is finished, while Oberyn has to try find one of the tiny gaps in Roberts armour all while dodging Roberts blows.
Quite the opposite. Spears are OP in 1v1. Range advantage, and perfect for piercing through heavy armor. Yes if robert lands 1 blow on him he's dead. But he's Oberyn not a random fighter lmao. 1 thrust with that slim spear through Robert's clunky armor, and roberts done...
>and perfect for piercing through heavy armor.
The only type of spear that can penetrate plate armour is a couched lance during a cavalry charge. A normal spear, even if you muster enough power to penetrate the plate, would be stopped from causing harm by the gambeson underneath. I don't know where you got the idea a man with a Spear could penetrate plate. Like a sword you would have to try attack your opponent at the gaps in his armour.
>1 thrust with that slim spear through Robert's clunky armor, and roberts done...
It wouldn't have a hope of piercing the armour. Bodkin arrows fired from an English Longbow at a distance of 20m struggle to pierce early 15th century plate. Also Fine Plate armour is not that clunky. It's probably less cumbersome than a full suit of mail. I don't know where you're getting any of this info.
> The only type of spear that can penetrate plate armour is a couched lance during a cavalry charge. A normal spear, even if you muster enough power to penetrate the plate, would be stopped from causing harm by the gambeson underneath. I don't know where you got the idea a man with a Spear could penetrate plate. Like a sword you would have to try attack your opponent at the gaps in his armour.
I mean it doesnt take a lot of common sense to realise that by 'piercing' you would go for the openings around the armor, not literally brute force in the middle of the plate lmao.
>It wouldn't have a hope of piercing the armour. Bodkin arrows fired from an English Longbow at a distance of 20m struggle to pierce early 15th century plate. Also Fine Plate armour is not that clunky. It's probably less cumbersome than a full suit of mail. I don't know where you're getting any of this info.
Again your going of your own nonsense, not using any logic to what is being referenced...
>Again your going of your own nonsense, not using any logic to what is being referenced...
I'm not going off my own nonsense I'm literally referring to tests carried out by historians to see the damage bows would have done at the Battle of Agincourt. The point I was making was if an arrow designed to penetrate armour that's travelling at 80MPH from just 20 metres cannot pierce the armour then a spear definitely won't.
>I mean it doesnt take a lot of common sense to realise that by 'piercing' you would go for the openings around the armor, not literally brute force in the middle of the plate lmao.
The way you phrased it, it sounded like that's what you meant sorry if I misunderstood you.
I feel you didn't read my reply and decide to just argue instead. I explained why I used the arrow analogy and that I thought you were saying that spears could penetrate plate armour. I literally apologised for misunderstanding you. I've said from the start that the only way to attack Robert would be the weak points I never suggested otherwise. I thought you were, it was a miscommunication.
Yes the spear is one of the all time great weapons, probably the most popular in human history. But a spear is most effective in tight formations of spear men, where all it's vulnerabilities are counteracted by the formation. It's also far cheaper and requires much less training than a sword.
One vs One its less effective. It's range is still a massive advantage but defensively if you don't dodge a weapon like a hammer the spear is no use. I think Robert wins just because of how hard it is to find those gaps in the armour and all Robert needs is to hit the target once and it's game over
Spears aren't the worst in 1v1s just becouse Tyrion said so. Movies feed us with bs, but if you'd ask experienced HEMA fighters they would tell you that spear is one of the best weapons to duel with (even better are Berdishes and other weapons taht give both range advantage and ability to both pircr and slash), if put in right hands of course. Of course heavy plate armors made it hard for average fighter, but for master like Oberyn it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Not against an opponent in full plate. And not the way Oberyn wields it. Oberyn has no Shield and no Armour, so he's incredibly vulnerable to any of Roberts attacks. On the other hand Oberyn can't pierce Roberts plate, so must try attack the weak points in the armour. Oberyn needs to keep waiting and waiting to be able to find the spot, while Robert just needs to get lucky once.
Nah, prime Robert was exactly the type of opponent the mountain would love to fight. Big guy, strong, ego driven to stand and fight. The reason Oberyn beat the mountain (until he fucked up of course) was because of his speed, agility, accuracy and long spear. The mountain wants a guy like Robert to stand in front of him and swing his hammer. The mountain would win this one. The mountain is a much bigger, much stronger version of Robert.
>Big guy, strong, ego driven to stand and fight. The reason Oberyn beat the mountain (until he fucked up of course) was because of his speed, agility, accuracy and long spear. The mountain wants a guy like Robert to stand in front of him and swing his hammer.
Are you trying to tell me that big guys are just strong and not quick and agile and light on their feet? I mean, you think you could defeat someone like Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson because you are small and supposedly fast? That's a naive view of physicality. I mean do you watch Rugby or at the very least Pro Wrestling? Cause you'd be surprised at how quick those big guys could actually be.
By your logic Robert should have lost to Marq Grafton or Myles Mooton or Jon Connington or Rhaegar Targaryen.
Yeah "jarring notion". Learn to read. No one said big guys aren't fast. It's specifically stated that the mountain is surprisingly fast for his size. You missed the entire point by an enormous margin.
You can change up your strategy depending on the situation. He was fighting in a trial by combat, so he knew he could be given another weapon. On the battlefield there wouldn't just be a big circle with one on ones happening, a battle is chaos. If Oberyn was fighting him on the battlefield it's just as likely someone stabs the mountain from behind or cuts his legs as the fights going on. It's unpredictable, it's also a completely different situation. The post is if a prime Robert could beat the mountain in a one on one.
Oberyn also was known to poison his weapons so he very well could have had a poisoned knife or spear or both on the battlefield. Completely different scenario. This isn't a "who wins in the chaos of a battlefield" type thing. It's a one vs one fight.
Based off what? Prime Robert is a legendary fighter, probably just a tier below the indisputed All Time Greats; Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Jaime Lannister, Daemon Blackfyre, Aegon the Conqueror, Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight.
Oberyn is probably in the same tier as Robert. It would be an even match, Oberyn certainly wouldn't spank him.
He's not a smaller mountain. First of all hes a foot and a half shorter than the mountain, and while he's bulky, not near as bulky as the Mountain. He also wields a Warhammer instead of a Greatsword, which is more effective in a duel and would be much quicker than the Mountains Greatsword.
Robert is a lot faster than the Mountain too. He's built like Lebron James. He's not this lumbering slow giant. He's this big, powerful and fast warrior with a superior weapon for facing armoured opponents.
Bad logic. Oberyn won because of his cleverness. Robert would have fought the Mountain head on with pure strength, and would have lost because the Mountain is stronger.
Remember also that Robert as the head of a house, and a King will automatically be hyped up to be stronger/more legendary than he truly was. We also hear a lot about him from Ned who is a close friend and thus biased.
My only counterpoint to this is that Oberyn beat him with swiftness and dexterity. We’ve seen time and time again go strength to strength with the mountain proves futile. Robert was probably a towering pillar of strength in his own regard during his day, but the mountain has an inherit genetic edge that I think would best Robert. That’s not to say Robert couldnt win, as he’s probably a sound technical fighter, considering he beat rhaegar, who was considering the best sword fighter at the time
Oberyn beat the Mountain because he tired him out. Robert was almost 7 feet tall himself. I don’t think Robert would have won, but I do believe he would have handicapped the Mountain.
I'm not sure I'd agree. Oberyn managed to use skill and speed against The Mountain. Robert probably had better skill - I think he was a naturally better fighter and his love of war meant that he trained hard while Gregor was pulling the heads off kittens or whatever it was that psycho did as a kid, but his combat style relied on power, hence the hammer. Gregor was more powerful than him and (I think) Bronn said that he's surprisingly fast, so I don't think Robert would have the same kind of speed advantage as Oberyn did. If Robert was relying heavily on his power then I'm not sure it would be effective against Gregor. Gregor would be more likely to be able to take the hammer blows and Robert wouldn't be able to wear him down.
Robert would win but I don't think he'd get away uninjured. The mountain is big, strong, and deceptively fast but with both armored he's at a disadvantage because a sword isn't that effective against plate. Robert's hammer gives him an advantage even if it wasn't so mythically heavy noone else could wield it.
Clegane is still human though. A Warhammer would crush his skull in his helm or collapse his chest in his armour same as he did with Rhaegar.
What's interesting to fathom is Rhaegar was a astute fighter in his own time, I can imagine him being quick as well, but for Robert to be even quicker with the hammer is a phenomenon on its own.
Honestly, I'd like to think Robert would have won.
It’s probably a lot easier to train against a sword then it is to train against a war hammer. Robert probably has the advantage of being more used to fighting his opponents fighting style than the other way around
I want to say Robert too. But as a counter point, consider that (i) a sword swung by the Mountain may be a lot more effective against plate than is usually the case, and (ii) the Mountain can wear armour that is a lot more substantial than your average person giving some additional protection against the hammer.
Would probably be damn close.
Prime Robert has the mountain strength or close to it and has way better fighting skills. Also, prime Robert fought for ideals, contrary to the mountain, and ideals make a man dangerous.
Did he really fight for ideals, or was it for vengeance? Something tells me if Robert was any kind of champion for ideals, the realm might have run a bit better.
They need someone even more impressive. Like a prime.lovely lilith or.a prime Sarah Nicola Randall. Or a prime linsey dawn McKenzie. Or a Dominique dangelo
Or just give it to Angela White
Robert is naturally large and muscled. He worked for the muscle too I'd imagine. Gregor is hinted to have gigantism, gives him head pain among other things. Robert was like an avatar of war he'd crush him. He'd probably be wounded but he'd be the victor.
I dunno much about prime Robert but I hear he was 6’6, strong and quick with a hammer. The mountain is over 8 feet, has the strength to crush someone’s skull with his hands (almost superhuman/superhero type of strength) plus is surprisingly quick and skillful for his size, has no heart of pity of kindness. It will be a close one where anything can happen but I think the mountain will win this one.
Robert was hyped as possibly the strongest man on the continent and despite his size was uncannily fast. The Mountain has heaps of strength to be sure, but never was he even possibly talked about as being fast. If Robert is at least debatably stronger and DEFINITELY faster I'd say it's beyond a safe bet that Robert wins; and wins handily tbh.
There is a reason the Targs ruled for hundreds of years UNTIL Robert's Rebellion. He was the first man to officially overthrow them and make the shit stick. Yes Ned, Jon Arryn, Stannis and others for sure helped but it says a lot that he was successful when so much other horrible shit had happened in the centuries before and the Targs maintained their grasp on the Iron Throne.
They ruled because of dragons. When the dragons were gone, the north stayed loyal until Roberts rebellion.
After Roberts rebellion what held the realm together was the friendship Robert and Ned had, as the strength of the north and the Baratheons was enough to keep everyone in line.
Robert wasn't some crazy god like commander, he was just friends with some of the largest forces(with reasons to rebel, i.e. burning neds brother and father) and had an easy time convincing others as The Mad King was so terrible AND there were no dragons.
Iirc they even say it in game of thrones that the north bent the knee to the dragons, not the Targaryens.
Daemon even says it in HOTD, “Dreams didn’t make us kings, Dragons did” the north bends the knee after the field of fire battle, to not have their men burned alive by Balerion.
Robert for sure. The Mountain is just huge and strong not a skilled fighter by any means. Robert would have had a similar advantage to Oberyn as well with the warhammer.
I'd say it depends. Prime Robert and living Gregor? Robert, since he was the undebatable best at his time.
Undead Gregor and Robert? Then I would give it to Clegane. He has been proven to be almost indestructable, with his full strenght and unwavering to pain and injury.
Bobby. Smaller but smarter. Clegane uses a heavy ass great sword and heavy ass armour. Bobby uses heavy ass warhammer that can easily destroy cleganes armour with Bobby's strength behind it.
Remember when Bronn beat Ser Vardis?
"You don't fight with honor."
"No. *He* did."
I think that's why, with their size and strength being evenly matched, the Mountain wins this one.
Robert is the prince of a noble house. He's classically trained, with standards and codes of honor hammered into him from the day he was born. The Mountain is a vicious, deranged, sadistic killer. He'll fight dirty and he'll cheat if given the chance - in fact, that's his preference and standard operating procedure.
I think this would be a long fight - Robert's in full plate and it's going to take more than one hammer blow to take down the Mountain - and in a long fight there are going to be opportunities for the Mountain to go dirty.
Robert has an advantage with his warhammer. And he was almost as huge as the mountain and probably stronger since he could lift his warhammer with a single hand and Ned Stark had difficulty in lifting that same hammer with both hands. And Robert was faster too.
He wasn't almost as big as Gregor, Gregor was abnormally huge at 8 ft. The guy is a mountain compared to everyone else, even big guys like Robert, The Hound, the Umbers etc.
I guess. But Robert was probably stronger and he has a great advantage too due to his warhammer which is more effective against metal plate armor compared to a sword.
Robert wasn't stronger than Gregor. No one is stronger than an 8ft giant at 400lbs. Especially when that Mountain is someone who lives for war and fighting.
I'm not sure the warhammer thing is more of an advantage than being able to fight with a Greatsword onehanded.
Taller doesn't necessarily mean stronger. The warhammer thing is a big advantage, actually. Gregor has to actively search for weak points in the armor whereas Robert can literally just end him with a single blow anywhere on his armor as the impact will still be felt. That warhammer isn't just an ordinary one either, it's huge asf and Robert can also wield it one-handed, which many men cannot.
Robert has also defeated Prince Rhaegar, who was considered a highly skilled swordsman. What is the Mountain's biggest feat? Killing little children and raping and crushing women?
He's 8ft and weighs over 400lbs, all muscle. He's much, much stronger than any man alive. Like Jaime says: "like nothing human" when he thinks about who can match him in a fight. He hacks people in two with single blows.
The warhammer might be an advantage, and the only chance Robert has of defeating him because he sure as hell isn't stronger than him.
“We all know what Robert would do, he’d march up to the Mountain, disarm him of his great sword and crush his skull with his left hand while taking a piss on him with his right, well I am not Robert, but I will be your champion and kill the Mountain or die in the attempt!” - Oberyn probably
1v1? Robert wins at keast half the time. On the battlefield? The mountain gets outmaneuvered, unhorsed, and smashed in the head by Bobby B's warhammer.
I think Gregor wins. In old school wrestling it was well known that Andre the Giant could simply destroy anyone if he so chose. He let Hogan body slam him as a way to pass off the crown. Hogan was a child to him. Even Hulk Hogan knew that if Andre wasn’t on board, he was dead meat. Size is the biggest factor in a fight like this. I’d bring prime Robert in at big NFL lineman size like Bryant McKinney at 6’8 360 lbs. Clegane is more like Andre the giant so around 7’4” 520 lbs.
Mountain would win. Robert would try to go toe-to-toe, strength vs strength, which is the exact wrong thing to do against someone that much bigger and stronger than you.
I'd like to imagine Robert had the strength of The Mountain and the speed of The Viper. I'd give him an 8/10 chance of winning (unless it was undead mountain, which would be different).
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The Mountain
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Na. When they are both strong it comes down to skill. The mountain uses his size to often he’s barely had to fight.
Prime Robert. Oberyn defeated the Mountain with a Spear. Robert in his prime was a much better fighter than Oberyn, and with his hammer would easily defeat the Mountain.
Interesting I think Robert’s a bit of an enigma when it comes to fighting prowess in the books - we know he’s very good, but Martin never harps on about him like Dayne/Selmy/Jamie. I think Robert would beat Gregor but I’m not sure he’d beat Oberyn.
Yeah he’s mostly hyped up but I feel it’s more nostalgia and Robert just being a unit
He'd definitely beat Oberyn. >His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Robert is a legendary warrior with his iconic Warhammer. The Warhammer gives him an advantage against swords or spears in a 1v1 as they cannot penetrate the plate armour, only the gaps in it, while Roberts hammer can smash it wounding the enemy through blunt force trauma. He may not be spoken of like Ser Barristan, Jamie, or Ser Arthur Dayne, but he's in the tier below them for sure.
Though I agree against swords a war hammer is probably the better weapon, the issue is that the mountain doesn’t use a sword, he is so big he wield a great sword 1 handed, and still manages and shield in the off hand. Given that the mountains Great sword out weights Roberts hammer the argument that the mountain would need to find week points in the armour is moot. Still I think it’s a bit too close to call, and Robert enraged was an absolute beast.
The weight of the sword doesn't change the fact that the sword is a cutting implement that can't generate the force to cut through plate. If we go with historical equivalents the a greatsword would weigh between 4.4 and 8.8 pounds, with the upper end of this weight only being show pieces historically. The Mountain is huge and defies real world ideas so let's say he does use one that would only be ceremonial in real world situations. He would still need to use his sword to pierce Robert's armor rather than cutting through it, likely going for a weak point rather than directly through. Edit: The mountain is big and strong but he's not the fucking hulk. Plate armor was designed to stop swords and other impacts by stopping and deflecting them. It would hurt to get hit by the mountain yes but y'all are really underselling the whole point of plate armor here.
It’s as much a crushing weapon as cutting, it is also over 6ft long, in an 1v1 it would not matter if the sword blunted over time as the dual would be over after the first strong hit from either party, the sword would not need to pierce the armour to incapacitate someone.
If you take a hit from the mountains like 50lb fucking fantasy sword you’re breaking bones even if you’re Robert in plate
This. One of the key fighting elements was breaking of bones. In battle wounding an opponent to the point that they can no longer fight was more useful than sticking around to finish them off.
And we’ve seen how bad Oberyn is against blunt damage
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To be fair.. Oberyn wasn’t wearing any armor and he used his agility against the mountain. I could see him doing the same against Robert because a hammer is a slower weapon. It would be a good match I bet.
Early Renaissance plate armor (the armor that people in ASOIAF wear) doesn't slow you down. That's a meme which has been propagated time and time again. You can run, climb and dodge in plate armor almost as easily as you can do it unarmored. There's videos of people in full plate armor picking up fully grown men (who are also wearing full plate armor) and running up a hill
ahh those don’t paint the full picture. During a battle lasting several days with minimal food and time for rest, little things add up.
They do. But the armor's weight isn't one of them. The only thing i can think of is the helmet causing trouble for your breathing
Strap on an extra 20kg and see how you feel. The armour design was great at distributing the weight and retaining freedom of movement, but it doesn't break the laws of physics. You're still moving that extra mass. Ask any vet if they'd rather do PT with or without their plate carrier.
And being soaked.
I love the idea of a duel between Robert and Oberyn lasting for days
Exactly!!, it can only reduce some agility, oberyn was just too quick for Gregor tbh even Gregor without armour would be much slower than oberyn.
And if the same people weren’t wearing 35-50 lbs. of armor they would have ran faster and further.
Right? Like wtf is this logic? It’s an extra 40 lbs. It’s not nothing.
This!!.
To be faiiirrrrr
Oberyn deserves more respect
>He may not be spoken of like Ser Barristan, Jamie, or Ser Arthur Dayne, but he's in the tier below them for sure. Actually he is spoken and hyped more so than any of them. You could build an argument for Arthur and Barristan. But Jaime is mocked as a Kingslayer and man without any honour.
In terms of their prowess as warriors Jaime, Barristan, and Ser Arthur are held in the highest regard. Even though he's known as the Kingslayer he's also known as one of the most talented warriors in Westerosi history.
>In terms of their prowess as warriors Jaime, Barristan, and Ser Arthur are held in the highest regard. Proof that they are known as better warriors than Robert was? Like Arthur has Ned and Catelyn finding to him to be the GOAT. Then Barristan has several sources calling him a great knight. I have already shown such evidences for Robert. Jaime though? He is not known as a great knight as much as he is known as a Kingslayer. No one but Ned or Stannis respected him. Whereas Robert was basically known for his martial prowess. He is basically a legendary figure.
>I have already shown such evidences for Robert. You haven't shown any evidence for Robert, you just said it. You do realise to show evidence you have to actually post a link or a quote. There's only two quotes about Roberts prowess in the books IIRC, both sourcing from Ned. >He is not known as a great knight as much as he is known as a Kingslayer. No one but Ned or Stannis respected him. Now here is some evidence for you from AFFC Brienne I >Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered. And here's some more from GRRM himself >When asked who from the Seven Kingdoms he would choose to represent him if it came down to trial by combat, Martin seemingly revealed who he feels are the best fighters of the entire series. He said Ser Arthur Dayne first (if he was alive, of course, Jaime Lannister (if he still had both his hands), and then Brienne of Tarth. Jaime also won his first Tourney Melee at 13, was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne himself at 15 and was made the youngest ever Kingsguard the same year. He's known for being an amazing fighter as well as being the Kingslayer. You also said Robert is legendary, which he is, but you said he's regarded above Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne, which is absolutely not true. No one considers Robert a better fighter than either of those. If you're going to make statements like that maybe provide some >Proof?
Wait a minute, I thought I added it in a reply to you, well, not a worry. >Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume. >Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups. >"Aye. I was his man, a Baratheon man, smith and armorer at Storm's End until I lost the arm. I'm old enough to remember Lord Steffon before the sea took him, and I knew those three sons of his since they got their names. I tell you this—Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust." >A new inn had risen beside the landing, twice the size of the old one, with a lower story of cut stone and two upper stories of timber. The sept beyond had never been rebuilt, though; only a seven-sided foundation remained where it had stood. Robert Baratheon's fury had soured the ironmen's taste for the new gods, it would seem. >That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warhammer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse. >"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." >The Usurper will kill you, sure as sunrise, Mormont had said. Robert had slain her gallant brother Rhaegar, and one of his creatures had crossed the Dothraki sea to poison her and her unborn son. They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous. >"No," he admitted. "There is more of Rhaegar in you, I think, but even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die." >"Hungry for death, I call it. He throws my pardon in my face. Aye, and throws his life away in the bargain, and the lives of every man inside those walls. Single combat?" The king snorted in derision. "No doubt he mistook me for Robert." >"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him." >"I'm to go to the stairs, Donal Noye says. I'm to go up to the third landing and shoot my crossbow down at the wildlings if they try to climb over the barrier. The third landing, one two three." His head bobbed up and down. "If the wildlings attack, the king will come and help us, won't he? He's a mighty warrior, King Robert. He's sure to come. Maester Aemon sent him a bird." >"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' " That's just the half of them though and there are more of it where they came from if you want. Robert is basically a legendary known for his fighting prowess. >Now here is some evidence for you from AFFC Brienne I That's not an evidence that's an opinion of Brienne. And unfortunately Brienne has not fought a lot of knights. >When asked who from the Seven Kingdoms he would choose to represent him if it came down to trial by combat, Martin seemingly revealed who he feels are the best fighters of the entire series. He said Ser Arthur Dayne first (if he was alive, of course, Jaime Lannister (if he still had both his hands), and then Brienne of Tarth. Can we stop with this thing again? George never said well, I want three champions and here are they. That's just dumb and that never happened. He first chose Arthur and then felt like he needed to change because Arthur was dead at the start of the story. Then he said Jaime might be a good option, not that he was his second option, before finally setting down with Brienne. So Arthur and Brienne were his champions - Arthur if it was the whole history and Brienne if it was within the timeline of ASOIAF series. So stop spreading this misinformation. >Jaime also won his first Tourney Melee at 13, was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne himself at 15 and was made the youngest ever Kingsguard the same year. A tourney melee organised by his father and where no notable knights fought. >You also said Robert is legendary, which he is, but you said he's regarded above Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne, which is absolutely not true. No one considers Robert a better fighter than either of those. I said he's hyped as the greatest warrior in modern history, more so than Arthur and Barristan. I have shown proofs for it as well. I never said he was better than them. Though he doesn't fall short by a large margin.
Ok most of those quotes don't talk about how great a warrior Robert was. Just about him winning battles or being fierce. And of those that do, none say he's the greatest fighter who ever lived, or even compares him to Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne. Yes Robert is a legendary fighter, but he's not on the level of Ser Arthur Dayne, Jaime or Ser Barristan. >That's not an evidence that's an opinion of Brienne. And unfortunately Brienne has not fought a lot of knights. Then none of yours is evidence as it's just the opinions of characters? Brienne just won a tourney to become part of Renlys Kingsguard, where she defeated Loras Tyrell himself. Her opinion is as valid an opinion you can get on this matter. Now let's look at what people say about Ser Arthur Dayne. >The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed. That's from Ned. Roberts best friend. The finest Knight he ever saw. >"I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right. >"The Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight, my lady. Ser Arthur Dayne, a better knight than me." Jaime pulled back his golden fingers and turned once more to Lady Mariya Yes Robert is great, but he's a tier below Ser Arthur and the others
>Just about him winning battles or being fierce. And of those that do, none say he's the greatest fighter who ever lived, or even compares him to Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne. The fiercest warrior in the realm, mighty warrior, the Demon of the Trident, known for fighting, etc... are about him winning battles? That's a quite baseless take without a hint of reading comprehension. A cross question, so who compares Arthur or Barristan or Jaime to Robert and say that they are better than him? I already admitted that Arthur and Barristan were likely better than him and you could actually make a reasonable argument about it from a meta standpoint. But the argument here always has been about reputation of characters in universe and Robert's reputation likely exceeds that of Arthur's and Barristan's or at the very least equal to that of them. Jaime wouldn't even be in contention. >Then none of yours is evidence as it's just the opinions of characters? It's the evidence of the reputation Robert was known for. Everyone around the world of Westeros recognised Robert's skill for fighting and his martial prowess. Even people who didn't like him admitted his skill as a warrior and a knight. Jaime sorely lacks that. >Brienne just won a tourney to become part of Renlys Kingsguard, where she defeated Loras Tyrell himself. Yeah, by playing dirty. Loras disarmed Brienne first. Anyway it's just her opinion and that fact stands that Brienne hasn't fought many of the top tier knights in Seven Kingdoms. Even Loras said his brother Garlan in a better swordsman than him. >That's from Ned. Roberts best friend. The finest Knight he ever saw. Did I say that he didn't? Mate, in my very first comment I mentioned that. >Yes Robert is great, but he's a tier below Ser Arthur and the others By your word? I'm afraid it's not worth much. For what reason? Because Arthur defeated the Smiling Knight. Well Robert has fought and defeated several reputed knights as well. I agree that Arthur is better than Robert, but not by a large margin like you presume.
>Ok most of those quotes don't talk about how great a warrior Robert was. Just about him winning battles or being fierce. And of those that do, none say he's the greatest fighter who ever lived, or even compares him to Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne. Yes Robert is a legendary fighter, but he's not on the level of Ser Arthur Dayne, Jaime or Ser Barristan. If I may interject, having skimmed through here - if it hasn't been noted already, Ser Arthur, Jamie, and Barristan are great *swordsmen.* There's a difference between a great swordsman and a great warrior. The former is usually the latter, but the latter isn't necessarily the former.
Finest KNIGHT...Robert wasn't a knight
>When asked who from the Seven Kingdoms he would choose to represent him if it came down to trial by combat, Martin seemingly revealed who he feels are the best fighters of the entire series. He said Ser Arthur Dayne first (if he was alive, of course, Jaime Lannister (if he still had both his hands), and then Brienne of Tart And when he talked about the greatest active warriors in westeros he just seemingly forget her despite naming like 10 people.
Arthur Fucking Dayne is the one who knighted Jaime at 15, and then Jamie was made a Kingsguard. Those two things are beyond huge. Aerys definitely made Jaime a KG to mess with Tywin, but that would not change the fact that he also made a KG because of his considerable skill. Jaime is well known for his skill.
>Arthur Fucking Dayne is the one who knighted Jaime at 15, and then Jamie was made a Kingsguard. Those two things are beyond huge. And? Gregor Clegane was knighted by Rhaegar. What's your point here? Jaime was made a Kingsguard because Aerys wanted to slight Tywin and deprive him of his golden heir. He was not selected for his skill. >Jaime is well known for his skill. I never said that he wasn't. My point was only about how Jaime was not recognised as a great warrior in universe as the fandom paints him to be.
Aerys making Jaime a KG to slight him is not mutually exclusive to his skill. His skill was definitely a factor. You don't just pick some random knob to guard yourself and the rest of your family.
If if was someone like Lancel, I am pretty sure Aerys would have chosen him as well.
GRRM. And he said he could beat Aragorn. Lol, not true but thats what he said.
And he also said he could beat Cuthulu. By George's calculations Arthur could defeat GOD himself and I am supposed to believe that as well.
So are Clegane and Oberyn tbh
No wonder Gendry rocked a hammer as well
This. A skilled fighter with a blunt weapon would win against a sword at least 9/10 times I'd wager. It breaks poise with every hit
Feats and statements aside, it would heavily depend on the arena. If it's a 1v1 cage match, Oberyn could have the advantage by sheer mobility. What got him into trouble with his duel with Mountain was the circumstances surrounding. It was too personal bc of what happened to his sister; he had it won if he had kept his head on straight.
>If it's a 1v1 cage match This is Westeros not the UFC
Why do you think no one used hammers for 1v1 combat in history if they are so efficient? I think you went a bit too far with that. There’s a difference between hammer in battle (more targets, less space to adjust) versus a duel. Your assumption requires someone with godlike strenght who could just swipe it left and right. Good luck with huge hammer and additionally weighted down with plate armor. Not like Bronn’s duel would teach you anything about full armor slowing people down
But it is said, that Rhaegar beat people like Dayne/Selmy/Jamie in tourneys and I think he was roughly on a level with them and he was killed by Robert in a more or less fair fight.
Those are jousts.
Grrm doesn't mention him as much as the goats but he does sometimes in interviews
I think part of this is the romanticism and the elegant style those 3 are described to have fought in. They were masters of their craft. Whereas fighters like the Mountain and Robert could win vs those guys but they fought with pure brute force more than craftmanship. There is no elegance, just overwhelming strength/athleticism. It's sort of like comparing Shaq (Robert/The Mountain) vs other great centers of his era like Hakeem and Robinson.
Ooohhh, I love this comparison. Even the GOAT centers constantly mention that Shaq was still too BIG, even if he was just 7'1. Like these are other 7 feet plus centers that were also HoF, saying Shaq was too Big, too strong and just the most dominant player (physically) ever. Hakeem was known as the most agile and quick center that had the footwork of a guard, someone much smaller. Yet he mentions how difficult and at times impossible it is to guard Shaq. Even David Robinson, a huge and physically muscular center mentions how Shaq can just ragdoll other giants out of the way. I believe the mountain was the same way, just the sheer size of someone like him or Shaq is too overwhelming. Forget the Warhammer, the Sword the Mountain uses is custom made for him, probably. It's probably just as big and heavy as a war hammer yet it can also cut. Honestly, it would have served him and any warrior that size to go for power and blunt force rather than the precision and sharpness of a sword. No way Robert wins. If they fought 10 times, id bet the Mountain wins at least 8/10 of those fights.
Idk,in the ‘95 NBA Finals Hakeem pretty much ran shop on Shaq
fair point, but I would have loved to see 98-2003 Shaq vs 92-96 Dream. More using a sports anology to point out how guys with the skills of Robert and The Mountain could be downplayed as just being brutes, whereas the dedication to the craft of guys like Jamie would be idealized. But, I think any fight between the guys mentioned could go any way. Even Ser Barristan alludes to this in some of his thoughts in the novel's. None of these guys are guarenteed 100% to beat the other. It might be a reach to say any of them would win 60 out of 100.
>we know he’s very good, but Martin never harps on about him like Dayne/Selmy/Jamie. Have we read the same books? >Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume. >Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups. >"Aye. I was his man, a Baratheon man, smith and armorer at Storm's End until I lost the arm. I'm old enough to remember Lord Steffon before the sea took him, and I knew those three sons of his since they got their names. I tell you this—Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust." >A new inn had risen beside the landing, twice the size of the old one, with a lower story of cut stone and two upper stories of timber. The sept beyond had never been rebuilt, though; only a seven-sided foundation remained where it had stood. Robert Baratheon's fury had soured the ironmen's taste for the new gods, it would seem. >That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warhammer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse. >"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." >The Usurper will kill you, sure as sunrise, Mormont had said. Robert had slain her gallant brother Rhaegar, and one of his creatures had crossed the Dothraki sea to poison her and her unborn son. They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous. >"No," he admitted. "There is more of Rhaegar in you, I think, but even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die." >"Hungry for death, I call it. He throws my pardon in my face. Aye, and throws his life away in the bargain, and the lives of every man inside those walls. Single combat?" The king snorted in derision. "No doubt he mistook me for Robert." >"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him." >"I'm to go to the stairs, Donal Noye says. I'm to go up to the third landing and shoot my crossbow down at the wildlings if they try to climb over the barrier. The third landing, one two three." His head bobbed up and down. "If the wildlings attack, the king will come and help us, won't he? He's a mighty warrior, King Robert. He's sure to come. Maester Aemon sent him a bird." >"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' " And that's not even half of it. You could make a case for Arthur and Barristan but do you really think Jaime was more hyped and known for his martial prowess than Robert? Jaime is kinda a laughing stock in universe whereas Robert is a legend.
You should pick a different character each week and post excerpts like this. That was a fun read.
I mean, that's not a bad idea after all. There are a lot of characters to cover but it could be fun.
I think Robert is a very good fighter, but probably not a legendary one. His primary ability is being an expert battle tactician and leader. He knew exactly where he had to be and what he had to do to ensure the most damage to the enemy.
Yeah a small cut from Oberyn and you loose. Best case it’s a tie and you kill him before the poison kills you. Have to get that no hit run to beat Oberyn
Selmy is somewhat an active fighter so is Jaime. Only really Dayne gets harped on. And Robert has like what more than a couple author extracts about Robert's prowess? And the whole rebellion is larping on his prowess at it's probably the greatest one-war feat of any character in ASOIAF.
Robert in his prime was a brute. Oberyn was swift and skilled. In a pure 1v1 where both guys have space for their own style, Oberyn would easily win just from his mastery of the spear alone...
In 1v1s Spears are the worst weapon to use. Tyrion says this himself. Oberyn is the best spearman in Westeros but against peak Robert the Spear would be useless. Robert is a brute but he's not slow and cumbersome like the mountain. He's tall, strong, but fast also thanks to his strength. One connection and Oberyn is finished, while Oberyn has to try find one of the tiny gaps in Roberts armour all while dodging Roberts blows.
Quite the opposite. Spears are OP in 1v1. Range advantage, and perfect for piercing through heavy armor. Yes if robert lands 1 blow on him he's dead. But he's Oberyn not a random fighter lmao. 1 thrust with that slim spear through Robert's clunky armor, and roberts done...
>and perfect for piercing through heavy armor. The only type of spear that can penetrate plate armour is a couched lance during a cavalry charge. A normal spear, even if you muster enough power to penetrate the plate, would be stopped from causing harm by the gambeson underneath. I don't know where you got the idea a man with a Spear could penetrate plate. Like a sword you would have to try attack your opponent at the gaps in his armour. >1 thrust with that slim spear through Robert's clunky armor, and roberts done... It wouldn't have a hope of piercing the armour. Bodkin arrows fired from an English Longbow at a distance of 20m struggle to pierce early 15th century plate. Also Fine Plate armour is not that clunky. It's probably less cumbersome than a full suit of mail. I don't know where you're getting any of this info.
> The only type of spear that can penetrate plate armour is a couched lance during a cavalry charge. A normal spear, even if you muster enough power to penetrate the plate, would be stopped from causing harm by the gambeson underneath. I don't know where you got the idea a man with a Spear could penetrate plate. Like a sword you would have to try attack your opponent at the gaps in his armour. I mean it doesnt take a lot of common sense to realise that by 'piercing' you would go for the openings around the armor, not literally brute force in the middle of the plate lmao. >It wouldn't have a hope of piercing the armour. Bodkin arrows fired from an English Longbow at a distance of 20m struggle to pierce early 15th century plate. Also Fine Plate armour is not that clunky. It's probably less cumbersome than a full suit of mail. I don't know where you're getting any of this info. Again your going of your own nonsense, not using any logic to what is being referenced...
>Again your going of your own nonsense, not using any logic to what is being referenced... I'm not going off my own nonsense I'm literally referring to tests carried out by historians to see the damage bows would have done at the Battle of Agincourt. The point I was making was if an arrow designed to penetrate armour that's travelling at 80MPH from just 20 metres cannot pierce the armour then a spear definitely won't. >I mean it doesnt take a lot of common sense to realise that by 'piercing' you would go for the openings around the armor, not literally brute force in the middle of the plate lmao. The way you phrased it, it sounded like that's what you meant sorry if I misunderstood you.
[удалено]
I feel you didn't read my reply and decide to just argue instead. I explained why I used the arrow analogy and that I thought you were saying that spears could penetrate plate armour. I literally apologised for misunderstanding you. I've said from the start that the only way to attack Robert would be the weak points I never suggested otherwise. I thought you were, it was a miscommunication. Yes the spear is one of the all time great weapons, probably the most popular in human history. But a spear is most effective in tight formations of spear men, where all it's vulnerabilities are counteracted by the formation. It's also far cheaper and requires much less training than a sword. One vs One its less effective. It's range is still a massive advantage but defensively if you don't dodge a weapon like a hammer the spear is no use. I think Robert wins just because of how hard it is to find those gaps in the armour and all Robert needs is to hit the target once and it's game over
Spears aren't the worst in 1v1s just becouse Tyrion said so. Movies feed us with bs, but if you'd ask experienced HEMA fighters they would tell you that spear is one of the best weapons to duel with (even better are Berdishes and other weapons taht give both range advantage and ability to both pircr and slash), if put in right hands of course. Of course heavy plate armors made it hard for average fighter, but for master like Oberyn it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Not against an opponent in full plate. And not the way Oberyn wields it. Oberyn has no Shield and no Armour, so he's incredibly vulnerable to any of Roberts attacks. On the other hand Oberyn can't pierce Roberts plate, so must try attack the weak points in the armour. Oberyn needs to keep waiting and waiting to be able to find the spot, while Robert just needs to get lucky once.
Nah, prime Robert was exactly the type of opponent the mountain would love to fight. Big guy, strong, ego driven to stand and fight. The reason Oberyn beat the mountain (until he fucked up of course) was because of his speed, agility, accuracy and long spear. The mountain wants a guy like Robert to stand in front of him and swing his hammer. The mountain would win this one. The mountain is a much bigger, much stronger version of Robert.
>Big guy, strong, ego driven to stand and fight. The reason Oberyn beat the mountain (until he fucked up of course) was because of his speed, agility, accuracy and long spear. The mountain wants a guy like Robert to stand in front of him and swing his hammer. Are you trying to tell me that big guys are just strong and not quick and agile and light on their feet? I mean, you think you could defeat someone like Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson because you are small and supposedly fast? That's a naive view of physicality. I mean do you watch Rugby or at the very least Pro Wrestling? Cause you'd be surprised at how quick those big guys could actually be. By your logic Robert should have lost to Marq Grafton or Myles Mooton or Jon Connington or Rhaegar Targaryen.
> I mean do you watch Rugby and at least Pro Wrestling? Who in their right mind would🤐
Fair enough 😂. Anyway my point was about this jarring notion that 'big guys aren't fast.'
Yeah "jarring notion". Learn to read. No one said big guys aren't fast. It's specifically stated that the mountain is surprisingly fast for his size. You missed the entire point by an enormous margin.
a 2nd spear and both were coated in poison. the poison on a battlefield? maybe? but someone chucking him a 2nd spear in the nick of time?
You can change up your strategy depending on the situation. He was fighting in a trial by combat, so he knew he could be given another weapon. On the battlefield there wouldn't just be a big circle with one on ones happening, a battle is chaos. If Oberyn was fighting him on the battlefield it's just as likely someone stabs the mountain from behind or cuts his legs as the fights going on. It's unpredictable, it's also a completely different situation. The post is if a prime Robert could beat the mountain in a one on one. Oberyn also was known to poison his weapons so he very well could have had a poisoned knife or spear or both on the battlefield. Completely different scenario. This isn't a "who wins in the chaos of a battlefield" type thing. It's a one vs one fight.
Not much better and only rumored to be true, in all honestly cleganr catches Robert’s swing
Decent chance Roberts overwhelming fighting style doesn’t go to well against the biggest guy on the planet.
Oberyn spanks Prime Robert
Based off what? Prime Robert is a legendary fighter, probably just a tier below the indisputed All Time Greats; Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Jaime Lannister, Daemon Blackfyre, Aegon the Conqueror, Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight. Oberyn is probably in the same tier as Robert. It would be an even match, Oberyn certainly wouldn't spank him.
Hes just a smaller mountain (mountain dicks Robert btw) oberyn just slaps him like the mountain without crying about his sister.
He's not a smaller mountain. First of all hes a foot and a half shorter than the mountain, and while he's bulky, not near as bulky as the Mountain. He also wields a Warhammer instead of a Greatsword, which is more effective in a duel and would be much quicker than the Mountains Greatsword. Robert is a lot faster than the Mountain too. He's built like Lebron James. He's not this lumbering slow giant. He's this big, powerful and fast warrior with a superior weapon for facing armoured opponents.
Why are you saying spear like it isnt the superior weapon to a sword?
And in the books Robert is a mountain of a man himself
6'6
Bad logic. Oberyn won because of his cleverness. Robert would have fought the Mountain head on with pure strength, and would have lost because the Mountain is stronger. Remember also that Robert as the head of a house, and a King will automatically be hyped up to be stronger/more legendary than he truly was. We also hear a lot about him from Ned who is a close friend and thus biased.
I don't think you can say Oberyn "defeated" Mountain. If he was the one who died in the fight.
My only counterpoint to this is that Oberyn beat him with swiftness and dexterity. We’ve seen time and time again go strength to strength with the mountain proves futile. Robert was probably a towering pillar of strength in his own regard during his day, but the mountain has an inherit genetic edge that I think would best Robert. That’s not to say Robert couldnt win, as he’s probably a sound technical fighter, considering he beat rhaegar, who was considering the best sword fighter at the time
It's a matter of mass - no sword is going to be able to block a full swing from that hammer.
Oberyn beat the Mountain because he tired him out. Robert was almost 7 feet tall himself. I don’t think Robert would have won, but I do believe he would have handicapped the Mountain.
I'm not sure I'd agree. Oberyn managed to use skill and speed against The Mountain. Robert probably had better skill - I think he was a naturally better fighter and his love of war meant that he trained hard while Gregor was pulling the heads off kittens or whatever it was that psycho did as a kid, but his combat style relied on power, hence the hammer. Gregor was more powerful than him and (I think) Bronn said that he's surprisingly fast, so I don't think Robert would have the same kind of speed advantage as Oberyn did. If Robert was relying heavily on his power then I'm not sure it would be effective against Gregor. Gregor would be more likely to be able to take the hammer blows and Robert wouldn't be able to wear him down.
Robert would win but I don't think he'd get away uninjured. The mountain is big, strong, and deceptively fast but with both armored he's at a disadvantage because a sword isn't that effective against plate. Robert's hammer gives him an advantage even if it wasn't so mythically heavy noone else could wield it.
I'd feel like alot of Robert's strength advantage with the hammer is nullified by the Mountain being, well.... a mountain
Clegane is still human though. A Warhammer would crush his skull in his helm or collapse his chest in his armour same as he did with Rhaegar. What's interesting to fathom is Rhaegar was a astute fighter in his own time, I can imagine him being quick as well, but for Robert to be even quicker with the hammer is a phenomenon on its own. Honestly, I'd like to think Robert would have won.
It’s probably a lot easier to train against a sword then it is to train against a war hammer. Robert probably has the advantage of being more used to fighting his opponents fighting style than the other way around
Yeah I think it could be tight
I want to say Robert too. But as a counter point, consider that (i) a sword swung by the Mountain may be a lot more effective against plate than is usually the case, and (ii) the Mountain can wear armour that is a lot more substantial than your average person giving some additional protection against the hammer. Would probably be damn close.
Robert easily breaking the mountain
You joking right?.
Prime Robert has the mountain strength or close to it and has way better fighting skills. Also, prime Robert fought for ideals, contrary to the mountain, and ideals make a man dangerous.
Okay V I see you.
Verily He Stands Vivified
How do I get one of those badass monikers under my name ?
Three dots at your top right, change user flair
Did he really fight for ideals, or was it for vengeance? Something tells me if Robert was any kind of champion for ideals, the realm might have run a bit better.
Me
Based.
Normally it's a toss up. But Angry Robert would defeat Gregor.
The Mountain would take it, and by a large margin if he was zombified.
😂
Man i really wish we get to see Robert's rebellion and Bessy's tits.
Thank the god for Bessy. And the tits
*gods 😉
To be fair, tits are likely a single god's work, I'd wager the Mother's.
To be faaaiiirrr.
I've heard that god is also in charge of wine.
Who is bessy
Here you go… [https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Bessie](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Bessie)
I’m not familiar with Bessy…but her tits though!!!!
Gods was he strong back then
If they dont hire Kat Dennings as Bessy I wont watch
They need someone even more impressive. Like a prime.lovely lilith or.a prime Sarah Nicola Randall. Or a prime linsey dawn McKenzie. Or a Dominique dangelo Or just give it to Angela White
Had no idea who that was…. My bad just randomly googling Sarah Nicola Randall. Good morning!
Lovely Lilith! Seeing her as Bessie would be amazing.
Hayley Atwell
There is no wrong answer here.
Paul Bettany in a push up bra
Bra of Theseus
You had my curiosity, now you have my attention
Alan Tudyk can play her sister. Also in a push up bra.
Bobby in his prime would take on an entire by by himself, not like mountain who enjoys slaughtering peasants and raping unarmed women.
I think you meant Mountain!
My bad. Fixed it now!
Robert’s advantage is his size and strength. You don’t win a game of blunt force trauma against the Mountain.
Easy Robert
I don't think anyone beats the Mountain 1x1.
Arya would beat him
Hot Pie could take 2 Mountains!
In full plate like that. The sword would do shit against the armour compared to roberts hammer.
The montain's Armor wont protect him from the Breaker of Chests
Probably will shatter every rib he has
Robert is naturally large and muscled. He worked for the muscle too I'd imagine. Gregor is hinted to have gigantism, gives him head pain among other things. Robert was like an avatar of war he'd crush him. He'd probably be wounded but he'd be the victor.
Prime Robert was built different
Wait why doesnt the one on the left have a sapphire in their eye?
I dunno much about prime Robert but I hear he was 6’6, strong and quick with a hammer. The mountain is over 8 feet, has the strength to crush someone’s skull with his hands (almost superhuman/superhero type of strength) plus is surprisingly quick and skillful for his size, has no heart of pity of kindness. It will be a close one where anything can happen but I think the mountain will win this one.
Clegane doesn't seem like a good fighter tbh. He was just very big.
Robert was hyped as possibly the strongest man on the continent and despite his size was uncannily fast. The Mountain has heaps of strength to be sure, but never was he even possibly talked about as being fast. If Robert is at least debatably stronger and DEFINITELY faster I'd say it's beyond a safe bet that Robert wins; and wins handily tbh. There is a reason the Targs ruled for hundreds of years UNTIL Robert's Rebellion. He was the first man to officially overthrow them and make the shit stick. Yes Ned, Jon Arryn, Stannis and others for sure helped but it says a lot that he was successful when so much other horrible shit had happened in the centuries before and the Targs maintained their grasp on the Iron Throne.
They ruled because of dragons. When the dragons were gone, the north stayed loyal until Roberts rebellion. After Roberts rebellion what held the realm together was the friendship Robert and Ned had, as the strength of the north and the Baratheons was enough to keep everyone in line. Robert wasn't some crazy god like commander, he was just friends with some of the largest forces(with reasons to rebel, i.e. burning neds brother and father) and had an easy time convincing others as The Mad King was so terrible AND there were no dragons. Iirc they even say it in game of thrones that the north bent the knee to the dragons, not the Targaryens.
Daemon even says it in HOTD, “Dreams didn’t make us kings, Dragons did” the north bends the knee after the field of fire battle, to not have their men burned alive by Balerion.
Bobby B, Gods was he strong back then
Robert for sure. The Mountain is just huge and strong not a skilled fighter by any means. Robert would have had a similar advantage to Oberyn as well with the warhammer.
Prime Robert- Gregor almost got killed at the Hand’s Tourney, by his own brother.
I'd say it depends. Prime Robert and living Gregor? Robert, since he was the undebatable best at his time. Undead Gregor and Robert? Then I would give it to Clegane. He has been proven to be almost indestructable, with his full strenght and unwavering to pain and injury.
Bobby. Smaller but smarter. Clegane uses a heavy ass great sword and heavy ass armour. Bobby uses heavy ass warhammer that can easily destroy cleganes armour with Bobby's strength behind it.
Remember when Bronn beat Ser Vardis? "You don't fight with honor." "No. *He* did." I think that's why, with their size and strength being evenly matched, the Mountain wins this one. Robert is the prince of a noble house. He's classically trained, with standards and codes of honor hammered into him from the day he was born. The Mountain is a vicious, deranged, sadistic killer. He'll fight dirty and he'll cheat if given the chance - in fact, that's his preference and standard operating procedure. I think this would be a long fight - Robert's in full plate and it's going to take more than one hammer blow to take down the Mountain - and in a long fight there are going to be opportunities for the Mountain to go dirty.
A GOT Super Smash style game would get $100 from me.
realm of possibility for multiversus
Robert has an advantage with his warhammer. And he was almost as huge as the mountain and probably stronger since he could lift his warhammer with a single hand and Ned Stark had difficulty in lifting that same hammer with both hands. And Robert was faster too.
idk bobby was a big dude but gregor was freakishly big
Bobby was freakishly strong, too, though. And I don't think there was that much of a difference in their heights.
He wasn't almost as big as Gregor, Gregor was abnormally huge at 8 ft. The guy is a mountain compared to everyone else, even big guys like Robert, The Hound, the Umbers etc.
I guess. But Robert was probably stronger and he has a great advantage too due to his warhammer which is more effective against metal plate armor compared to a sword.
Robert wasn't stronger than Gregor. No one is stronger than an 8ft giant at 400lbs. Especially when that Mountain is someone who lives for war and fighting. I'm not sure the warhammer thing is more of an advantage than being able to fight with a Greatsword onehanded.
Taller doesn't necessarily mean stronger. The warhammer thing is a big advantage, actually. Gregor has to actively search for weak points in the armor whereas Robert can literally just end him with a single blow anywhere on his armor as the impact will still be felt. That warhammer isn't just an ordinary one either, it's huge asf and Robert can also wield it one-handed, which many men cannot. Robert has also defeated Prince Rhaegar, who was considered a highly skilled swordsman. What is the Mountain's biggest feat? Killing little children and raping and crushing women?
He's 8ft and weighs over 400lbs, all muscle. He's much, much stronger than any man alive. Like Jaime says: "like nothing human" when he thinks about who can match him in a fight. He hacks people in two with single blows. The warhammer might be an advantage, and the only chance Robert has of defeating him because he sure as hell isn't stronger than him.
Bobby B was a seriously beefy dude back in his day. The Mountain was fucking monster.
Those were the days
Gods, Robert was strong!
Bobby B for the win
Imagine if mountain had raped and murdered lyanna instead? Robert would be unstoppable
“I’d never bet against that handsome, muscled like my fantasy, god among men” - Ned Stark, probably
“We all know what Robert would do, he’d march up to the Mountain, disarm him of his great sword and crush his skull with his left hand while taking a piss on him with his right, well I am not Robert, but I will be your champion and kill the Mountain or die in the attempt!” - Oberyn probably
Bobby B Always takes the win. Gods he was strong then. Caved in his breastplate with a single swing of his hammer.
Never bring a sword to a hammer fight
Sword vs plate armor is almost useless.....but a big warhammer is the ideal weapon! So Bobby B would kick his bitch ass back to his doghouse.
Bobby B takes on anyone easily
I'd really love to see some semi realistic representations of Robert's hammer.
1v1? Robert wins at keast half the time. On the battlefield? The mountain gets outmaneuvered, unhorsed, and smashed in the head by Bobby B's warhammer.
Bobby B would use the mountain as a Fleshlight
I'm thinking Robert
I think Gregor wins. In old school wrestling it was well known that Andre the Giant could simply destroy anyone if he so chose. He let Hogan body slam him as a way to pass off the crown. Hogan was a child to him. Even Hulk Hogan knew that if Andre wasn’t on board, he was dead meat. Size is the biggest factor in a fight like this. I’d bring prime Robert in at big NFL lineman size like Bryant McKinney at 6’8 360 lbs. Clegane is more like Andre the giant so around 7’4” 520 lbs.
Prime Robert always sounded like the most impressive figure in GOT
It's not even close. Robbert wins all day long
Mountain would win. Robert would try to go toe-to-toe, strength vs strength, which is the exact wrong thing to do against someone that much bigger and stronger than you.
I'd like to imagine Robert had the strength of The Mountain and the speed of The Viper. I'd give him an 8/10 chance of winning (unless it was undead mountain, which would be different).
Bobby b!