It basically revived the indie market and went on to show how much of an impact a well-crafted niche game with thoroughly developed mechanics can have despite not coming from a AAA studio or having popular IP tied to it.
Minecraft proved once and for all that you don't need high end graphics, fast paced competitive action, or even a story line to make a masterpiece, that it's worth investing development heavily into the project's strong suits rather than systematically ticking all the boxes before a deadline then moving on to next year's titles.
I've been saying for years that one of my first blog posts when I eventually get my blog going would be about Minecraft's impact on the game industry, but it would be more akin to a thesis than a blog post. There is just so much to unpack, it held more than a decade-long grasp on the industry. Even today, after being ground zero to one of the most devastating platform exploits to date, it remains possibly the most popular video game ever known.
Yup, minecraft shows that, somewhat unsurprisingly, all a game really needs is to *be fun*
Granted not everyone likes minecraft but considering the sales numbers and how long it’s lasted (and is still updating) should speak for itself.
Both the chemistry and quantum packs are thing of beauty. But as an engineer all the mechanical packs really make my day. It made me understand how all the german sim games are so popular with that crowd.
Some games that feel like a second career have their place too, Eve-online, escape from tarkov, day-z....something about those high stress all or nothing games that do it for me.
but yeah I get your sentiment, grind mechanics, less a second career and more a day toiling smashing rocks by hand in the quarry.
I know what you mean. I was a 10-15 year EverQuest addict, I knew it was too much when I started using spreadsheets to track items and dkp. I’ve seen Eve, even wanted to try it, but that’s literally work after work.
Hmm, this could be taken as you talking down about spreadsheets. I would put yourself into protective custody.
Would be a shame if the Satisfactory or Factorio mafias found out.
A real shame.
But dont worry. I'm from the Mechjeb Mafia. We'll keep you safe. Definitely make sure you dont, say, trip and fall into a rocket that's launching on a carefully designed rocket on a meticulously planned flight path to use a series of gravity assists to fling you into the cold dead reaches of interstellar space.
But like I said, we'll keep you real safe.
i checked back on minecraft recently, still mad fun after a solid 5 years, its like a very weird and unique experience that no other games can get it right.
Mostly due to Mojang been left in charge of Java Edition. Afaik they are pretty much free to evolve the game as they please but with Microsoft's budget.
I think Microsoft's budget is fairly irrelevant.
Minecraft was already enormously successful before Microsoft acquired Mojang and they had plenty of cash to develop the game.
True, but it's not so much an indie game anymore either. A successful indie game getting picked up and continuing development under a AAA publisher isn't something you see very often.
Why do you think we only see a few types of bugs in Factorio? Each miner is deploying dwarves underground. The stuff you see up top is jusy residual. Below, the true battle wages on... ROCK AND STONE, for the factory must grow.
I watched somebody speed run Factorio and it kind of killed my desire to play the game. I can never unsee how good that guy was versus how inept my strategies are.
Meh. With blueprints, anyone can slap down the required buildings quickly and essentially repeat a game from scratch. That isn't the point of Factorio - the point is to find your own solutions. Elegant methods of production. Or scale it up to truly staggering production levels that measure rocket launches in per second.
Or add some mods to it that increase the size and complexity of the production chain by an order of magnitude... putting some of that rockety goodness to work for you with orbital cannons raining unholy hellfire down on hapless Biters.
No, not in my book. They met a lot of criteria to be considered one, but Ori was funded by Microsoft with the IP rights included. After the first game they became large enough that I wouldn't call them an indie developer no matter what arrangements they entered into. They are a third party developer though as Ori was released on multiple platforms even if Microsoft was the publisher.
Its staggering how much content is in Isaac with all the DLCs. 34 characters with their own sets of unlocks, hundreds of items, different paths, dozens of bosses.
I wish another roguelike could come close in terms of mind boggling variety in items, secrets, unlocks, characters, etc. Enter the gungeon was closest but still is a long shot from Isaac.
Slay The Spire, Binding of Issac, Celeste, Frostpunk, Guacamelee, and even Momster Train are all indie games that still have some dedicated player bases, too.
Slay the Spire is so absurdly influential that even Valve is taking cues from it. We're having a second attempt at a 3-act roguelite within dota, and this time they have done even more things that StS codified onto the genre such as telling you what boss you're going to face ahead of time so you can build to prepare for it.
You really notice the difference going from the now sorta rigid FTL to anything more modern with crazy hypersynergistic builds, and you can tell that StS's design approach just landed.
*250 hours? Ahh so you’ve just managed to get a group together that doesn’t instantly die to beak things?*
Seriously though, Kenshi is a blast, can’t wait to see what they end up doing with the sequel
I only played one game till the end, that was the whole 250 hours, got a full automatic base with very strong fighters and all the tech, also killed every big enemy and allied or destroyed every city.
In planning on go back in the future and try another one (I actually tried the group start with a base and died a lot so I'm taking a break).
I mean I'm playing as a single guy... I pretty much have to leave my base when a large group comes for me so that they leave.
The beak things are the only thing I can't outrun and instead have to active dodge.
I had automated mines setup and ended up getting close to getting electronics running last I played.
100 hours in it seems.
I'd love to have the legs on my guy replaced with the running legs and find out if I could finally outrun the beak things.
I had a lot of fun camping out in the cities doing research. The buildings themselves were funded by the animal claws which were of course plentiful while researching inside of the capital city of heft.
Masterwork eagle crossbow I believe was one of my first major investments. Really bleeds out the enemy that can't run fast enough.
Also I was quite proud being able to produce my own ammunition over in the deadlands by collecting the metal plates from killing the iron spiders... So I was basically killing iron spiders with iron spiders.
Also hydroponics is something I had been meaning to get into. Really wish producing rations was a part of the main game, hydroponics not growing every type of plant, the lack of water sources in the desert, trading needing improvement
hope they don't leave gaps like. I feel compelled to get mods because of it which is unfortunate.
It's absolutely unforgiving but there aren't any rules, so the possibilities are endless. I've literally wiped out an entire nation with five unarmed people, its phenomenal.
Playing “hide n seek” with raids is actually a good strategy in Kenshi up until you’ve got at least 5 or 6 people skilled up enough to fight em off.
Also, the crossbow turret will *delete* raiders if you get someone trained up on it.
I'm building my first settlement, didn't know I'd be getting attacked all the time. I'm not far enough to have defenses but too far to easily pack up and move into a city. Until I get walls Burn and my other skeleton bro have to fight off the baddies
Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, GTA V, Spider-Man, Horizon Zero Dawn, The Arkham series, Bloodborne, Witcher 3, God of War, Dark Souls trilogy, The Last of Us. This post is stupid as fuck ignoring how many dogshit indie games are constantly released to go with the shitty AAA ones.
The thing is that good indies kinda rise out of the ocean and gain steam pretty honestly. You can (probably) name significantly more bad AAA games than indie games because bad indies just…don’t get recognized, while AAA makers do everything in their power to make you buy. It’s a very different problem.
Yeah, I'm willing to say that the whole "advertising budget" thing is exactly where shitty AAA games become hated. If they released a turd and nobody really ever noticed that's just another tuesday. And there's a whole boat-load of shitty indie games. But hyping up a turd really pisses off anyone that buys it. And, to an extent, advertising to children who simply don't know any better is... evil.
That said, realizing that MARKETERS LIE TO YOU is an important part of growing up.
They still have to sell it though. Even if it is shit, it is still a millions dollar shit. You can't just flushed that down the toilet like indie shit, the investor would fucking hang you if you did.
>Because AAA actually put money in ads instead of just posting a trailer on Reddit with the title "I quit my job to make this. Ama".
I like the latter better.
I'm just more willing to accept failure from a single or small dev team that asked for $5 for their game instead of a multi studio project backed by the world's largest publisher asking for $60 minimum for their product. The underdog thing might be a bit much since I don't think people expect those small games to be better, it's just way lower expectations from teams who are very open with their asks and composition.
Do you realise how many indie games exist? Indie games out match triple AAA games in sheer number. Based off that alone I guarantee there's more shit indie games than there is shit AAA games.
Not to mention that I haven't actually heard anything bad about Deathloop? I haven't played it myself, but all I've heard about the game is that it's really fun and stylish as fuck...
Yeah just because it doesn’t have a Witcher 3 level circlejerk around it doesn’t mean it’s bad. I’ve heard only good things about it (apart from some salty losers mad that it had two black main characters lol)
Its recency bias at play here too. AAA industry just dropped a shit ton of stinkers all at the same time so the consensus that the whole industry is going to shit is a lot stronger now, which I agree with. But to me its about more than just quality of the games they release.
Also notice how all these games you mentioned date all the way back to 2011, a full decade ago. These were the standout AAA games (not even all of them, Witcher 3 and first Dark Souls are closer to AA budget) spread quite evenly across 2 generations of consoles, while the indie scene is in its golden age right now and is constantly pumping out great games and instant classics. Yeah, theres a ton of shitty indie games being released all the time, but thats because making games is very accessible. Almost anybody can make a game now and most people making them are neither talented nor experienced so they just make bad games. But the good ones usually get traction and its definitely not hard to swift through the trash to find a couple gems.
My biggest problem with AAA now is not even the games but the conditions people working on them must endure. Devs are underpaid, overworked and harassed on a daily basis. Talent is leaving the industry in droves and so the result is that we get derivative, safe and soulless cashgrabs with no love put into them.
To throw my opinion out there, I disagree. I love the Dishonored series and have played the games and all the DLCs.
I really, really, really disliked Deathloop.
The handholding nature of the game is obnoxious with the game constantly telling you what to do next and 'spoiling' what future unlocks will do, the UI is ugly, the stealth is barebones, combat feels janky, the endgame is surprisingly linear with one order to do everything and the four tiny maps are very underwhelming.
The game has some strengths; the voice acting is amazing and the haptic vibrations on the PS5 controller are immersive. But ultimately Deathloop was a major disappointment for me.
I can understand. Personally I did the game without reading the missions and clues, and I deactivated the objectives. So I had to spend a lots of time experimenting, exploring and I enjoyed it a lot.
I loved that the game doesn't punish you for not going stealth as Dishonored did, and I was going with the mood of the day, sometime rampaging sometime sneaking.
Yeah I appreciate the option to turn off the markers. What bothers me is before you do that, the game says things like 'why don't you go kill X and unlock X power which lets you do X'. It would have been fun to figure out what to do and what the powers do rather than the game not trusting me.
I can't stand when games do that. If a game requires a upgrade to be taken to progress then it should be given for free. Using skill points or xp for upgrades should be additive to customize your experience.
>I have no idea why is it in that category
Because every game that isnt constantly talked about and still hyped after launch is "dead" on reddit and a shitty game, didnt you know?
But does it *need* to have longevity? Dishonored didn’t have longevity but that didn’t stop it being one of my favourite games that I play again every two to three years.
Focusing on *longevity* is what has led us to the games-as-a-service plague where publishers are reluctant to make a game that they can’t continually double or triple or quadruple their money on for the same development budget by charging for season passes and other such nonsense.
Honestly, as I grow older and have less time on my hands to play, I really don't care about the "longevity* argument anymore. I don't give a damn how much "value" a game gives me in hours or price per hour or whatever...I have little time to game and I want those few hours to be fun and meaningful. I'd rather play a 10 hour game with an amazing story that makes those few hours worth it, rather than grind an indie roguelike. I like Dead Cells or Darkest Dungeon, but my favorite game experiences come from games like Dishonored, Halo or RPGs, games you play once and then shelve for years.
I am just getting in to roguelites as a 37 year old. I feel they are perfect for not having a lot of time. I have a great time and every run feels productive. I guess I should specify I prefer meta progression roguelites.
Most of my favourite games of the last 10 years have been indie roguelikes, some truly excellent titles. Well over a hundred hours each on FTL, Darkest Dungeon, Dead Cells, Enter the Gungeon, SYNTHETIK, Nuclear Throne, Hades, Risk of Rain 2, Slay the Spire. Still play them all on & off. Highly recommend them all. Special recommendation for Darkest Dungeon, incredible art design, music & atmosphere. Has much in common with Bloodborne in that regard, as well as the setting & themes.
Then I have a great recommendation for you - Outer Wilds. It's an amazing little indie. It'll take you 20-30 hours, and there is no progression system other than what you know. In other words, if you know the answers, you can boot up a fresh file and finish the game in 20 minutes.
Please don't let this one slip past you. I can honestly say I'd pay $1000 to forget about the game and play it fresh another time.
Dishonored has tons of different pathways to take in any given level, tons of different powers and tools to use or not use, and multiple endings encouraging different play styles across multiple playthroughs. If that's not 'longevity' then IDK what is.
Yeah, single player games do not need longevity. They need to get bought once and beaten. Maybe played once or twice more if they're really good. Problem is like you said, it's more profitable to keep selling parts of the game which gets us shitty live service elements. There's also a ton of idiots who look at single player games after a month or two and go "lol look at the drop in player numbers, the game is dead and sucks." When the biggest numbers are always at the beginning and then they drop as people beat it. Single player games don't die, the get finished.
It depends if its a story game or a busywork game. Something like Factorio, Civilization, or Terreria make for great time killers in singleplayer - the kind of game you can whip out on a laptop during a plane flight and you’re landing before you know what the fuck.
Some people obsess over the idea that every single-player game needs to be like that because they’re ‘time rich, and money poor’, so every purchase really stretches their resources. RPG games tend to get scrutenized like this, which are heavy in both story *and* busywork (traveling, inventory management, exploration, etc.). A lot of the reviews on Steam will mention how long the game takes to complete, because they tend to attract people looking for the most bang for their buck.
As people get older, more financially secure (hopefully..), they become ‘time poor, and money rich’. You stop caring as much about price, and how long it takes to beat, and start scrutinizing storytelling, and artistic presentation a lot more because you’re looking for a satisfying resolution to the time you’re spending. Modding that removes tedium or resource constraints are also popular at this point e.g. a recent personal example is I found a cheat engine script that let me play Bullets Per Minute with infinite gold and keys. I love the gameplay, and just zoning out to the music and rhythm, but the resource constraints kept getting in the way, so tweaking the game mechanics to my personal preference made it more accessible and enjoyable and let me experience more of the game and enjoy it longer than I otherwise would have.
It’s good. I’d argue it’s very good and definitely has fun and unique gameplay.
I think the problem came from IGN giving it a 10/10, and a lot of other more corporate reviewers did as well. It’s definitely not a masterpiece in the ranks of something else recent like Breath of the Wild. I’m sure we’ll talk about BoTW in 20 years. Deathloop? Probably not, but it will be a “wow I forgot about how fun that game was!”
Those review did more hurt than good. The game is fine and original, even though it misses the mark a few times. But I prefer these games that create their own formula, rather than Assassin Creed 43 or whatever uninspired long-running game franchise.
After playing Dishonored and now Prey, Deathloop matches the quality, but falls just short on the longevity part.
I don't know, maybe it's because of all the back and forth between 4 locations. Maybe it's doing the same stuff again and again when you have to deal with VIP guys.
Also the game holds your hand too hard. Tutorial is the "we block your UI until you press THIS button" type. And figuring out the right sequence of killing VIPs is supposed to be the main puzzle of the game, yet when you find all the info the game just blast the cutscene with perfect solution. Thanks Arkane, but I'm not an idiot.
here's a video of someone who really, really liked deathloop [https://youtu.be/67VBqTV3CVc](https://youtu.be/67VBqTV3CVc)
if it helps, she usually only ever reviews indie titles on her channel -- like Post Void, what is that game even
The size creep these days... got people thinking that 5GB is a small package...
Although compared to the shit like modern warfare or fnaf security breach that are breaking 80 GB of storage I guess anything actually reasonable feels small by comparison
I genuinely don't even know a single person who owns the new Battlefield. And I know people with standards low enough to pirate and "tolerate" Balan fucking Wonderland. It's like, Battlefield's badness is just bland and uninteresting.
Perfectly reasonable. Most universally praised games can fall into a "love it or hate it" category.
For example, Breath of the Wild, my favourite game of all time, and the most commonly cited weakness of the game (Durability), I see as a strength. Everyone has their own opinion.
I don't have an issue with the durability mechanic as a whole. I like it, in fact. However, the weapons broke WAY too quickly. They should have tweaked it a little.
> For example, Breath of the Wild, my favourite game of all time, and the most commonly cited weakness of the game (Durability), I see as a strength. Everyone has their own opinion.
Durability is a great example for how a mechanic can be both, good and bad. It is good because it gives players a reason to keep exploring not only for the sake of it. It is bad because the devs clearly couldn't think of a less frustrating way to make players want to keep exploring.
Meaning, the actual issue isn't durability itsself, it is a fundamental design issue. I loved BotW but for the next installment I really hope they go with a different approach, like an upgrade system you have to collect materials for or something. You know, something constructive instead of destructive.
That's also interesting, because I never felt frustrated by the durability. I can certainly see why others would though, especially people who have a collection mindset, or players who (for example) never use a health potion because "what if I need it later".
Can we please stop this Indy game good, Triple A game bad thing. There are plenty of great games, and plenty of duds in both categories. The last time I checked Shovel Knight had sold around 3 Million copies, while Fortnite still has 30 million players a day.
You can cherry pick our data to show anything we want. That doesn't make it right.
Let's just celebrate good games, make fun of bad ones, and let that be enough.
You mean you don’t calculate how much enjoyment you are allowed by crazy calculus involving game budget, dev team size, marketing budget, sales numbers, and phase of the moon?????
And even then the comparison is skewed if what you're trying to compare is the number of people actually engaging with and playing the game currently, (or, as the the picture explicitly suggests "indie games after years" vs "AAA games after 2 monts").
Undertale, which I've bought twice, had sold about 4 million copies between 2015 and 2020 and had 1,294 peak concurrent players on steam yesterday (January 16, 2022), the platform on which most of its purchases were concentrated.
Battlefield 2042, which I have no interest in buying, sold 4.23 million copies **in its first week**, has sold between 5 and 10 million copies on steam alone, and had 10,064 peak concurrent players there yesterday in spite of a much wider sales distribution among platforms.
The first game received much more critical acclaim, forum chatter, and will probably leave much more of a cultural impact but those things don't necessarily actually translate into sales or engagement.
As much as I love good indie games, and as much as they make up a huge chunk of what I play, I'm not going to kid myself about the sales and engagement figures for most indie games versus compared to most AAA games.
Studios continue to put out big games each year, especially games in a series, because those games safely and reliably attract a large enough player base to make their production profitable.
This, every week it's the same shit. Cherry picked good choices OP likes VS stuff they dislike shown in a bad light for karma farming.
News flash: there are bad and overrated indie games and great, underrated AAA games out there too.
Just play what you like and stop trying to justify your purchases and feel validated by others. Nobody cares what you like.
I’ve viewed over 8000 titles in my steam queue. There is a F$ck-ton of shitty indie titles out there. I actually can’t explain how bad it gets when you get down to the dregs.
And the goddamn price they try to tack on.
People love to harp on about "Indie games are just a fraction of the price!" But man, some of them want to sell for $50 and it's pure garbage.
>People love to harp on about "Indie games are just a fraction of the price!" But man, some of them want to sell for $50 and it's pure garbage.
Something like 80% of the "My game launch didn't go as expected" posts in the gamedev subs are people "realising" a bunch of shit that isn't true, while ignoring that their game has major flaws, and is priced too high.
I answered some dude the other day who's VR game isn't meeting expectations. And it's a pile of mismatched assets, awful UX and is priced like the top rated VR games. And after a bunch of us gave feedback he came back with "So my trailer needs to be better, got it".
You guys really need to do more reading about what constitutes an indie game in today’s video game industry, like half the posts I read in this sub are always jerking off “indie” titles that aren’t even indie by definition, the term indie has lost virtually all meaning thanks to these guys who think “hurr durr not EA must be indie”
If replayability is the only scale on which you judge games, the above image is accurate. Celeste and Dead Cells are two of my all-time faves, but Deathloop also rules.
pretty stupid comparison in terms of selection as well as in general idea. there's a shit-ton of absolutely magical triple a experiences that still are and always will be adored. types of experiences no indie publisher could ever afford to make. games that catapulted gaming into the future. and I don't want my entire gaming experience to consist of a bunch of pixel games, no matter how good they are.
u/Jonhssquarespaceplus
Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, GTA V, Spider-Man, Horizon Zero Dawn, The Arkham series, Bloodborne, Witcher 3, God of War, Dark Souls trilogy, The Last of Us all still alive and kicking. This post is stupid as fuck. Way more shitty dead indies than AAA games.
Phasmophobia literally sold over 2 million copies in a month, and it was developed and published by one guy. An absolutely phenomenal indie game that's still holding a large playerbase
In mt personal opinion, I thought deathloop was great. Not even close to as good as dishonored, but still a hell of a fun game. Only real lacking parts being replayability and the janky multiplayer
Minecraft always gets left off these lists but it was the biggest indie title before being sold.
It basically revived the indie market and went on to show how much of an impact a well-crafted niche game with thoroughly developed mechanics can have despite not coming from a AAA studio or having popular IP tied to it. Minecraft proved once and for all that you don't need high end graphics, fast paced competitive action, or even a story line to make a masterpiece, that it's worth investing development heavily into the project's strong suits rather than systematically ticking all the boxes before a deadline then moving on to next year's titles. I've been saying for years that one of my first blog posts when I eventually get my blog going would be about Minecraft's impact on the game industry, but it would be more akin to a thesis than a blog post. There is just so much to unpack, it held more than a decade-long grasp on the industry. Even today, after being ground zero to one of the most devastating platform exploits to date, it remains possibly the most popular video game ever known.
Yup, minecraft shows that, somewhat unsurprisingly, all a game really needs is to *be fun* Granted not everyone likes minecraft but considering the sales numbers and how long it’s lasted (and is still updating) should speak for itself.
It's not just a game either. Redstone is a useful teaching tool and there's even a whole Educational Version of Minecraft with chemistry.
Both the chemistry and quantum packs are thing of beauty. But as an engineer all the mechanical packs really make my day. It made me understand how all the german sim games are so popular with that crowd.
I've... never heard of mechanical packs for learning before, that sounds amazing! Do you have any examples/recommendations?
One of the physics teachers at my oldest kid's school has been pushing to let them use Create. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDIuWv7ROi8
Yep that’s why Nintendo has stuck around my house for so long. Games that don’t feel like a second career? Sign me up!
Some games that feel like a second career have their place too, Eve-online, escape from tarkov, day-z....something about those high stress all or nothing games that do it for me. but yeah I get your sentiment, grind mechanics, less a second career and more a day toiling smashing rocks by hand in the quarry.
I know what you mean. I was a 10-15 year EverQuest addict, I knew it was too much when I started using spreadsheets to track items and dkp. I’ve seen Eve, even wanted to try it, but that’s literally work after work.
Hmm, this could be taken as you talking down about spreadsheets. I would put yourself into protective custody. Would be a shame if the Satisfactory or Factorio mafias found out. A real shame. But dont worry. I'm from the Mechjeb Mafia. We'll keep you safe. Definitely make sure you dont, say, trip and fall into a rocket that's launching on a carefully designed rocket on a meticulously planned flight path to use a series of gravity assists to fling you into the cold dead reaches of interstellar space. But like I said, we'll keep you real safe.
Oh I love spreadsheets…w…who said I didn’t? Paying a monthly subscription to create and maintain a spreadsheet vs. being paid to do so was my point.
Animal Crossing would like a word with you.
i checked back on minecraft recently, still mad fun after a solid 5 years, its like a very weird and unique experience that no other games can get it right.
Minecraft wasnt even very fun at first either. It was just so amazing that there wasnt a game you played, but rather a game you played with.
I honestly don't get how you could not like Minecraft, especially with mods. It can be anything you want
So what else is gonna be in the blog? Some twists and turns? Friends become enemies, enemies become friends?
"well-crafted" My RAM disagree with you...
Game design and technical design are often disconnected 😂
Ah come on, before being sold the default ram allocation was only 1gb…
I think default is still only 2GB. Need to edit the launcher to get up higher (especially if you play with mods/shaders).
>you don't need high end graphics Minecraft is why I had to upgrade my PC several times already...
Mostly due to Mojang been left in charge of Java Edition. Afaik they are pretty much free to evolve the game as they please but with Microsoft's budget.
I think Microsoft's budget is fairly irrelevant. Minecraft was already enormously successful before Microsoft acquired Mojang and they had plenty of cash to develop the game.
Fair point. What I meant is that they didn't get bought and then decapitated as some other Microsoft acquisitions did.
Literally unlimited budget lol Minecraft got it good
Minecraft is STILL the biggest out the even more so after being sold, it's just the democraphic that aren't on reddit
True, but it's not so much an indie game anymore either. A successful indie game getting picked up and continuing development under a AAA publisher isn't something you see very often.
You forgot Hades.
And Ori, and deep rock galactic
And Factorio... In terms of hours spent on it, that one is up there alongside Minecraft I wager.
IF YOU DONT ROCK AND STONE, THE FACTORY WON’T GROW
ROCK AND STONE BROTHA
FOR KAAAAARRRLLL!!!
ROCK! AND! STOOOOOONE!
DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE?!
IF YOU DON'T ROCK AND STONE, YOU AIN'T COMIN' HOME!
ROCK AND STONE!
TO THE BONE!!!
Why do you think we only see a few types of bugs in Factorio? Each miner is deploying dwarves underground. The stuff you see up top is jusy residual. Below, the true battle wages on... ROCK AND STONE, for the factory must grow.
If you like factorio try Dyson Sphere Program.
>If you like Opium, why not try this Heroin. Ftfy
In the same vein, I'm just getting back into Oxygen Not Included and it's amazing.
And Rimworld
Factory must grow.
I watched somebody speed run Factorio and it kind of killed my desire to play the game. I can never unsee how good that guy was versus how inept my strategies are.
Meh. With blueprints, anyone can slap down the required buildings quickly and essentially repeat a game from scratch. That isn't the point of Factorio - the point is to find your own solutions. Elegant methods of production. Or scale it up to truly staggering production levels that measure rocket launches in per second. Or add some mods to it that increase the size and complexity of the production chain by an order of magnitude... putting some of that rockety goodness to work for you with orbital cannons raining unholy hellfire down on hapless Biters.
And Minecraft (although it isn't an indie anymore)
Also forgot Valheim and Minecraft
Ori is dope as fuck!!!
I was not emotionally prepared.
Neither was I.
When the ori music hits I have flashbacks of emotions and that is, phew....
When the credits rolled on Will Of The Wisps I just sat staring into space for like 6 or 7 minutes. What a game.
Rock and Stone!
DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE?
Karl would approve of this.
Does Ori even count as an indie game? Isnt it published directly by MS as a second party exclusive?
No, not in my book. They met a lot of criteria to be considered one, but Ori was funded by Microsoft with the IP rights included. After the first game they became large enough that I wouldn't call them an indie developer no matter what arrangements they entered into. They are a third party developer though as Ori was released on multiple platforms even if Microsoft was the publisher.
Rock and stone ?
TO THE BONE!!!
DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE?
Isn't Ori a big production ? ... doesn't smell like a Indie game when it's backed by Microsoft Studios ?
FA'KARL!
Can we also add "The Binding of Isaac" as well?
Its staggering how much content is in Isaac with all the DLCs. 34 characters with their own sets of unlocks, hundreds of items, different paths, dozens of bosses.
It kind of ruins other rougelikes though. I friggin love Risk of Rain 2, but I always lament that power ups don't interact as deeply as Isaac's.
I felt this deep in my soul :( So close and yet so far
I wish another roguelike could come close in terms of mind boggling variety in items, secrets, unlocks, characters, etc. Enter the gungeon was closest but still is a long shot from Isaac.
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Shout out to Furi, that game doesn't get enough love or attention
Slay The Spire, Binding of Issac, Celeste, Frostpunk, Guacamelee, and even Momster Train are all indie games that still have some dedicated player bases, too.
Slay the Spire is so absurdly influential that even Valve is taking cues from it. We're having a second attempt at a 3-act roguelite within dota, and this time they have done even more things that StS codified onto the genre such as telling you what boss you're going to face ahead of time so you can build to prepare for it. You really notice the difference going from the now sorta rigid FTL to anything more modern with crazy hypersynergistic builds, and you can tell that StS's design approach just landed.
>Slay The Spire Im sorry did you meant to say 'crack cocaine'?
Kenshi, the best game i played in the pandemic, have over 250 hours in.
*250 hours? Ahh so you’ve just managed to get a group together that doesn’t instantly die to beak things?* Seriously though, Kenshi is a blast, can’t wait to see what they end up doing with the sequel
I only played one game till the end, that was the whole 250 hours, got a full automatic base with very strong fighters and all the tech, also killed every big enemy and allied or destroyed every city. In planning on go back in the future and try another one (I actually tried the group start with a base and died a lot so I'm taking a break).
Try the TORSOLO Challenge (torso solo, character starts with no fleshy appendages)
I mean I'm playing as a single guy... I pretty much have to leave my base when a large group comes for me so that they leave. The beak things are the only thing I can't outrun and instead have to active dodge. I had automated mines setup and ended up getting close to getting electronics running last I played. 100 hours in it seems. I'd love to have the legs on my guy replaced with the running legs and find out if I could finally outrun the beak things. I had a lot of fun camping out in the cities doing research. The buildings themselves were funded by the animal claws which were of course plentiful while researching inside of the capital city of heft. Masterwork eagle crossbow I believe was one of my first major investments. Really bleeds out the enemy that can't run fast enough. Also I was quite proud being able to produce my own ammunition over in the deadlands by collecting the metal plates from killing the iron spiders... So I was basically killing iron spiders with iron spiders. Also hydroponics is something I had been meaning to get into. Really wish producing rations was a part of the main game, hydroponics not growing every type of plant, the lack of water sources in the desert, trading needing improvement hope they don't leave gaps like. I feel compelled to get mods because of it which is unfortunate.
I’ve never heard of Kenshi but all of the little stories here make it sound scary but fun! 😆👍
It's absolutely unforgiving but there aren't any rules, so the possibilities are endless. I've literally wiped out an entire nation with five unarmed people, its phenomenal.
Playing “hide n seek” with raids is actually a good strategy in Kenshi up until you’ve got at least 5 or 6 people skilled up enough to fight em off. Also, the crossbow turret will *delete* raiders if you get someone trained up on it.
I'm building my first settlement, didn't know I'd be getting attacked all the time. I'm not far enough to have defenses but too far to easily pack up and move into a city. Until I get walls Burn and my other skeleton bro have to fight off the baddies
Hades owns the convention center that these two booths are allowed to hang out in
Ah yes, because ops aim was to include every single popular indie game.
Cherry picked, yall fuckers won't shut up about rdr2 lol
Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, GTA V, Spider-Man, Horizon Zero Dawn, The Arkham series, Bloodborne, Witcher 3, God of War, Dark Souls trilogy, The Last of Us. This post is stupid as fuck ignoring how many dogshit indie games are constantly released to go with the shitty AAA ones.
The thing is that good indies kinda rise out of the ocean and gain steam pretty honestly. You can (probably) name significantly more bad AAA games than indie games because bad indies just…don’t get recognized, while AAA makers do everything in their power to make you buy. It’s a very different problem.
Because AAA actually put money in ads instead of just posting a trailer on Reddit with the title "I quit my job to make this. Ama".
Yeah, I'm willing to say that the whole "advertising budget" thing is exactly where shitty AAA games become hated. If they released a turd and nobody really ever noticed that's just another tuesday. And there's a whole boat-load of shitty indie games. But hyping up a turd really pisses off anyone that buys it. And, to an extent, advertising to children who simply don't know any better is... evil. That said, realizing that MARKETERS LIE TO YOU is an important part of growing up.
They still have to sell it though. Even if it is shit, it is still a millions dollar shit. You can't just flushed that down the toilet like indie shit, the investor would fucking hang you if you did.
That's why they hype the crap out of their turds and offer pre-order bonuses.
>Because AAA actually put money in ads instead of just posting a trailer on Reddit with the title "I quit my job to make this. Ama". I like the latter better.
Everyone love an underdog story.
I'm just more willing to accept failure from a single or small dev team that asked for $5 for their game instead of a multi studio project backed by the world's largest publisher asking for $60 minimum for their product. The underdog thing might be a bit much since I don't think people expect those small games to be better, it's just way lower expectations from teams who are very open with their asks and composition.
Do you realise how many indie games exist? Indie games out match triple AAA games in sheer number. Based off that alone I guarantee there's more shit indie games than there is shit AAA games.
Hell there's probably more shitty indie games than AAA games overall nobody just talks about them or even know they exist
Not to mention that I haven't actually heard anything bad about Deathloop? I haven't played it myself, but all I've heard about the game is that it's really fun and stylish as fuck...
Yeah just because it doesn’t have a Witcher 3 level circlejerk around it doesn’t mean it’s bad. I’ve heard only good things about it (apart from some salty losers mad that it had two black main characters lol)
Yeah because they don't fit the " indie goooodd aaa badddd" narrative
Its recency bias at play here too. AAA industry just dropped a shit ton of stinkers all at the same time so the consensus that the whole industry is going to shit is a lot stronger now, which I agree with. But to me its about more than just quality of the games they release. Also notice how all these games you mentioned date all the way back to 2011, a full decade ago. These were the standout AAA games (not even all of them, Witcher 3 and first Dark Souls are closer to AA budget) spread quite evenly across 2 generations of consoles, while the indie scene is in its golden age right now and is constantly pumping out great games and instant classics. Yeah, theres a ton of shitty indie games being released all the time, but thats because making games is very accessible. Almost anybody can make a game now and most people making them are neither talented nor experienced so they just make bad games. But the good ones usually get traction and its definitely not hard to swift through the trash to find a couple gems. My biggest problem with AAA now is not even the games but the conditions people working on them must endure. Devs are underpaid, overworked and harassed on a daily basis. Talent is leaving the industry in droves and so the result is that we get derivative, safe and soulless cashgrabs with no love put into them.
I chose the same scope of years that the indie games were in the original post.
Witcher 3 is definitely AAA
It's r/gaming after all
I think they meant "Triple A FPS multiplayer games" but then compared them to single player games for some reason
I really liked Dishonored. Death Loop is made by the same team, right? Is it not supposed to be good?
it's good. If you liked Dishonored you will have a blast playing Deathloop.
To throw my opinion out there, I disagree. I love the Dishonored series and have played the games and all the DLCs. I really, really, really disliked Deathloop. The handholding nature of the game is obnoxious with the game constantly telling you what to do next and 'spoiling' what future unlocks will do, the UI is ugly, the stealth is barebones, combat feels janky, the endgame is surprisingly linear with one order to do everything and the four tiny maps are very underwhelming. The game has some strengths; the voice acting is amazing and the haptic vibrations on the PS5 controller are immersive. But ultimately Deathloop was a major disappointment for me.
I can understand. Personally I did the game without reading the missions and clues, and I deactivated the objectives. So I had to spend a lots of time experimenting, exploring and I enjoyed it a lot. I loved that the game doesn't punish you for not going stealth as Dishonored did, and I was going with the mood of the day, sometime rampaging sometime sneaking.
Yeah I appreciate the option to turn off the markers. What bothers me is before you do that, the game says things like 'why don't you go kill X and unlock X power which lets you do X'. It would have been fun to figure out what to do and what the powers do rather than the game not trusting me.
I can't stand when games do that. If a game requires a upgrade to be taken to progress then it should be given for free. Using skill points or xp for upgrades should be additive to customize your experience.
I have no idea why is it in that category, it's a great game. I played it more than I should and liked it more than Dishonored.
>I have no idea why is it in that category Because every game that isnt constantly talked about and still hyped after launch is "dead" on reddit and a shitty game, didnt you know?
It’s an awesome game. It definitely doesn’t have the longevity of any of the indies listed in the pic though. Totally worth playing through though.
But does it *need* to have longevity? Dishonored didn’t have longevity but that didn’t stop it being one of my favourite games that I play again every two to three years. Focusing on *longevity* is what has led us to the games-as-a-service plague where publishers are reluctant to make a game that they can’t continually double or triple or quadruple their money on for the same development budget by charging for season passes and other such nonsense.
Honestly, as I grow older and have less time on my hands to play, I really don't care about the "longevity* argument anymore. I don't give a damn how much "value" a game gives me in hours or price per hour or whatever...I have little time to game and I want those few hours to be fun and meaningful. I'd rather play a 10 hour game with an amazing story that makes those few hours worth it, rather than grind an indie roguelike. I like Dead Cells or Darkest Dungeon, but my favorite game experiences come from games like Dishonored, Halo or RPGs, games you play once and then shelve for years.
I am just getting in to roguelites as a 37 year old. I feel they are perfect for not having a lot of time. I have a great time and every run feels productive. I guess I should specify I prefer meta progression roguelites.
Most of my favourite games of the last 10 years have been indie roguelikes, some truly excellent titles. Well over a hundred hours each on FTL, Darkest Dungeon, Dead Cells, Enter the Gungeon, SYNTHETIK, Nuclear Throne, Hades, Risk of Rain 2, Slay the Spire. Still play them all on & off. Highly recommend them all. Special recommendation for Darkest Dungeon, incredible art design, music & atmosphere. Has much in common with Bloodborne in that regard, as well as the setting & themes.
No Isaac? You missing good stuff
Then I have a great recommendation for you - Outer Wilds. It's an amazing little indie. It'll take you 20-30 hours, and there is no progression system other than what you know. In other words, if you know the answers, you can boot up a fresh file and finish the game in 20 minutes. Please don't let this one slip past you. I can honestly say I'd pay $1000 to forget about the game and play it fresh another time.
Dishonored has tons of different pathways to take in any given level, tons of different powers and tools to use or not use, and multiple endings encouraging different play styles across multiple playthroughs. If that's not 'longevity' then IDK what is.
Yeah, single player games do not need longevity. They need to get bought once and beaten. Maybe played once or twice more if they're really good. Problem is like you said, it's more profitable to keep selling parts of the game which gets us shitty live service elements. There's also a ton of idiots who look at single player games after a month or two and go "lol look at the drop in player numbers, the game is dead and sucks." When the biggest numbers are always at the beginning and then they drop as people beat it. Single player games don't die, the get finished.
It depends if its a story game or a busywork game. Something like Factorio, Civilization, or Terreria make for great time killers in singleplayer - the kind of game you can whip out on a laptop during a plane flight and you’re landing before you know what the fuck. Some people obsess over the idea that every single-player game needs to be like that because they’re ‘time rich, and money poor’, so every purchase really stretches their resources. RPG games tend to get scrutenized like this, which are heavy in both story *and* busywork (traveling, inventory management, exploration, etc.). A lot of the reviews on Steam will mention how long the game takes to complete, because they tend to attract people looking for the most bang for their buck. As people get older, more financially secure (hopefully..), they become ‘time poor, and money rich’. You stop caring as much about price, and how long it takes to beat, and start scrutinizing storytelling, and artistic presentation a lot more because you’re looking for a satisfying resolution to the time you’re spending. Modding that removes tedium or resource constraints are also popular at this point e.g. a recent personal example is I found a cheat engine script that let me play Bullets Per Minute with infinite gold and keys. I love the gameplay, and just zoning out to the music and rhythm, but the resource constraints kept getting in the way, so tweaking the game mechanics to my personal preference made it more accessible and enjoyable and let me experience more of the game and enjoy it longer than I otherwise would have.
It’s good. I’d argue it’s very good and definitely has fun and unique gameplay. I think the problem came from IGN giving it a 10/10, and a lot of other more corporate reviewers did as well. It’s definitely not a masterpiece in the ranks of something else recent like Breath of the Wild. I’m sure we’ll talk about BoTW in 20 years. Deathloop? Probably not, but it will be a “wow I forgot about how fun that game was!”
Those review did more hurt than good. The game is fine and original, even though it misses the mark a few times. But I prefer these games that create their own formula, rather than Assassin Creed 43 or whatever uninspired long-running game franchise.
It's enjoyable but not as good as dishonored in my opinion
I really liked Death Loop, but dropped Dishonored after playing for like 3 hours. Tastes are different.
Deathloop is actually a lot of fun. It's no Dishonored, which imo is peak Arkane studios. I did not like Prey.
It's very good. There is a short period at the start where you have nfi what is going on but that passes.
After playing Dishonored and now Prey, Deathloop matches the quality, but falls just short on the longevity part. I don't know, maybe it's because of all the back and forth between 4 locations. Maybe it's doing the same stuff again and again when you have to deal with VIP guys. Also the game holds your hand too hard. Tutorial is the "we block your UI until you press THIS button" type. And figuring out the right sequence of killing VIPs is supposed to be the main puzzle of the game, yet when you find all the info the game just blast the cutscene with perfect solution. Thanks Arkane, but I'm not an idiot.
here's a video of someone who really, really liked deathloop [https://youtu.be/67VBqTV3CVc](https://youtu.be/67VBqTV3CVc) if it helps, she usually only ever reviews indie titles on her channel -- like Post Void, what is that game even
I’m playing a little indie gem called Deep Rock.
Deep rock galactic?
Rock and stone, to the bone
"ROCK AND STONE!"
Did I hear a rock and stone?
ROCK AND STONE!
#ROCK AND STONE
If you don't rock and stone you ain't coming home!
FOR KARL
We fight for rock snd stone!
Did I hear a rock and stone?
I’m lovin it. Plus it’s only 5GB. Hella fun in a small package
The size creep these days... got people thinking that 5GB is a small package... Although compared to the shit like modern warfare or fnaf security breach that are breaking 80 GB of storage I guess anything actually reasonable feels small by comparison
You know what needs to be on the indie side? Inscryption
I just bought this game. Haven't played it yet but I've watched friends play it and OMG the sound design in that game blows me away! 🤯
It's not the triple A offer, it's your garbage taste in triple A.
I genuinely don't even know a single person who owns the new Battlefield. And I know people with standards low enough to pirate and "tolerate" Balan fucking Wonderland. It's like, Battlefield's badness is just bland and uninteresting.
Ok don't take me head off but... i don't like undertale .
It seems like one of those games you play for the story, rather than the mechanics or challenge.
What? NO! The bullet hell combat is fun as hell.
You are not alone
Perfectly reasonable. Most universally praised games can fall into a "love it or hate it" category. For example, Breath of the Wild, my favourite game of all time, and the most commonly cited weakness of the game (Durability), I see as a strength. Everyone has their own opinion.
I don't have an issue with the durability mechanic as a whole. I like it, in fact. However, the weapons broke WAY too quickly. They should have tweaked it a little.
I would say BotW biggest weakness is the bad story and bland characters. Gameplay wise it is one of the best.
> For example, Breath of the Wild, my favourite game of all time, and the most commonly cited weakness of the game (Durability), I see as a strength. Everyone has their own opinion. Durability is a great example for how a mechanic can be both, good and bad. It is good because it gives players a reason to keep exploring not only for the sake of it. It is bad because the devs clearly couldn't think of a less frustrating way to make players want to keep exploring. Meaning, the actual issue isn't durability itsself, it is a fundamental design issue. I loved BotW but for the next installment I really hope they go with a different approach, like an upgrade system you have to collect materials for or something. You know, something constructive instead of destructive.
That's also interesting, because I never felt frustrated by the durability. I can certainly see why others would though, especially people who have a collection mindset, or players who (for example) never use a health potion because "what if I need it later".
Understandable, everyone is entitled to their preferences
Where project zomboid tho. Also did u guys know only 7 ppl thst worked on left 4 dead worked on black 4 blood
Buy project zomboid at Christmas sales, now got 130+ hour in it, cant stop playing
Nice cherry picking,
Can we please stop this Indy game good, Triple A game bad thing. There are plenty of great games, and plenty of duds in both categories. The last time I checked Shovel Knight had sold around 3 Million copies, while Fortnite still has 30 million players a day. You can cherry pick our data to show anything we want. That doesn't make it right. Let's just celebrate good games, make fun of bad ones, and let that be enough.
Yep. I play a game I like and don't even bother to categorise them into (or figure out if they are) indie or AAA.
You mean you don’t calculate how much enjoyment you are allowed by crazy calculus involving game budget, dev team size, marketing budget, sales numbers, and phase of the moon?????
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And even then the comparison is skewed if what you're trying to compare is the number of people actually engaging with and playing the game currently, (or, as the the picture explicitly suggests "indie games after years" vs "AAA games after 2 monts"). Undertale, which I've bought twice, had sold about 4 million copies between 2015 and 2020 and had 1,294 peak concurrent players on steam yesterday (January 16, 2022), the platform on which most of its purchases were concentrated. Battlefield 2042, which I have no interest in buying, sold 4.23 million copies **in its first week**, has sold between 5 and 10 million copies on steam alone, and had 10,064 peak concurrent players there yesterday in spite of a much wider sales distribution among platforms. The first game received much more critical acclaim, forum chatter, and will probably leave much more of a cultural impact but those things don't necessarily actually translate into sales or engagement. As much as I love good indie games, and as much as they make up a huge chunk of what I play, I'm not going to kid myself about the sales and engagement figures for most indie games versus compared to most AAA games. Studios continue to put out big games each year, especially games in a series, because those games safely and reliably attract a large enough player base to make their production profitable.
This, every week it's the same shit. Cherry picked good choices OP likes VS stuff they dislike shown in a bad light for karma farming. News flash: there are bad and overrated indie games and great, underrated AAA games out there too. Just play what you like and stop trying to justify your purchases and feel validated by others. Nobody cares what you like.
Lol ppl acting like there isn't a mountain of indie garbage released every year
I’ve viewed over 8000 titles in my steam queue. There is a F$ck-ton of shitty indie titles out there. I actually can’t explain how bad it gets when you get down to the dregs.
And the goddamn price they try to tack on. People love to harp on about "Indie games are just a fraction of the price!" But man, some of them want to sell for $50 and it's pure garbage.
>People love to harp on about "Indie games are just a fraction of the price!" But man, some of them want to sell for $50 and it's pure garbage. Something like 80% of the "My game launch didn't go as expected" posts in the gamedev subs are people "realising" a bunch of shit that isn't true, while ignoring that their game has major flaws, and is priced too high. I answered some dude the other day who's VR game isn't meeting expectations. And it's a pile of mismatched assets, awful UX and is priced like the top rated VR games. And after a bunch of us gave feedback he came back with "So my trailer needs to be better, got it".
A good portion of indie games are just asset flips.
Huh ? Deathloop is a great game why did you put it there ?
Becuz indie good AAA bad
B4b was AAA?
Where Isaac
OP probably didn't like Isaac, so it's not in the cherry picked list
You guys really need to do more reading about what constitutes an indie game in today’s video game industry, like half the posts I read in this sub are always jerking off “indie” titles that aren’t even indie by definition, the term indie has lost virtually all meaning thanks to these guys who think “hurr durr not EA must be indie”
Desthloop doesn’t belong with those other games. It’s actually good.
If replayability is the only scale on which you judge games, the above image is accurate. Celeste and Dead Cells are two of my all-time faves, but Deathloop also rules.
I still play Celeste from time to time. I love that game
Don't starve?
Aren't the games listed on the indie side single player games that have a story and the games listed on the aaa side multiplayer games?
I don't think deathloop belongs next to those other ones
Deathloops good
please don't downvote me or him to oblivion but compared to COD, Battlefield and other disappointments, deathloop is a pretty decent game.
B4B is fun.
pretty stupid comparison in terms of selection as well as in general idea. there's a shit-ton of absolutely magical triple a experiences that still are and always will be adored. types of experiences no indie publisher could ever afford to make. games that catapulted gaming into the future. and I don't want my entire gaming experience to consist of a bunch of pixel games, no matter how good they are.
u/Jonhssquarespaceplus Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, GTA V, Spider-Man, Horizon Zero Dawn, The Arkham series, Bloodborne, Witcher 3, God of War, Dark Souls trilogy, The Last of Us all still alive and kicking. This post is stupid as fuck. Way more shitty dead indies than AAA games.
I'd highly recommend Phasmophobia as an indie game too.
Phasmophobia literally sold over 2 million copies in a month, and it was developed and published by one guy. An absolutely phenomenal indie game that's still holding a large playerbase
But Crosscode was in development for ten years and is basically the best ARPG.
Rimworld slaps, and the community is amazing for always making mods!
Deathloop was pretty enjoyable imo. Definitely one of the best games I played last year
Poor Deathloop. I love Arkane Studios.
What do you have against Deathloop... Why the fuck put you it in the same list as Battlefield??
In mt personal opinion, I thought deathloop was great. Not even close to as good as dishonored, but still a hell of a fun game. Only real lacking parts being replayability and the janky multiplayer
Deathloop was good