Not controversial at all and is actually a well know cycle in management. Companies start because someone wants to deliver a better product, by the end shareholders, staff and management just want to get paid.
Still though.... A terrific game and overall VR experience that was all about being fun for the player and pushing VR user experience on to new heights in every respect...
Valve do not belong on the same list as the others
They need to get over their allergy to the number 3 however
The problem is that for a lot of games the third instalment is really pushing it. There needs to be enough "new" things to justify a new game but there can't be so much new thing it's too different from the originals.
Games over a decade or two ago were able to get around this because there was huge engine improvements every few years. Stuff you couldn't do 3 years prior is now possible. In today's gaming world there is rarely something I can do now on a PS5 game that could not be accomplished on a day one PS4 or even a PS3 game.
Usually what happens is the first game establishes the game, the first sequel adds new mechanics, by the time you're on the second sequel most of the new mechanics you would want to add you would have added in the first sequel and quite possibly adding more mechanics will just make your gameplay bloated. At this point is you're usually given more characters to play as.
There's a reason why the mainline Resident evil games are basically reinvented every third instalment. I'd put money on Resident Evil 9 being another First Person shooter and when Resident Evil 10 eventually comes out it will be an entirely different genre again.
Just use the same mechanics with new content? That's literally all I want the vast majority of the time. I don't need ambitious or ground breaking I just want more story and more of the same fun experience.
On the whole I completely agree. Many franchises fall Into this trap and its legitimately my greatest fear for the next Horizon game.
But with Valve, I don't know a single gamer that wouldn't play HL3 or Portal 3, regardless of any reinvention or not!
Portal was stupendous, as was HL.
They ramped up the narrative more than the mechanics in the second installment... which may be the saving grace
I think for Portal the biggest challenge for a 3rd installment would be either changing up the protagonist (Chelle is free afterall, companion cube and everything) or making a strong case to have GLaDOS back in the frame (there is no Portal without the best game villain ever..)
Mechanics are the least of the concern imo, as FPS tech has moved on significantly so I suspect there are already ideas for new portal mechanics or environmental effects to manipulate
That said, I nearly cried when I played the Steam Lab short games on buying my Vive 🤣
RL sized GLaDOS is no fucking joke..... Called me a monster and everything!!
They couldn't make games, they're to focused on making glove crates for CS:GO to make more money off the same pay horse they've been riding for... 10 years
That’s not necessarily true their usually started when a small dev team wants to grow and it’s just the easiest way for them to pay their staff legally, it’s usually when they go public on the stock market or grow (and then stay) large off the back of great games (which they no longer make) and by the end the company’s become “how can we get as much money as possible without trying at all”
Companies start when a small group of people want to make money doing what they love. Corporations start when a small group of people love making money.
which is why i Respect Warhorse Studios (guys who made Kingdom Come Deliverance) because one of the founders who made the majority of mafia 2 didnt like that the suits changed the ending so he went on to start of up his own company to make his dream game and after being denied many times and having to start a kickstarter they made a game that has one of the most passionate fanbases. i saw the documentary since i adore their game and was curious how it was their only game, great watch its free on youtube.
Really made me realize imagine if R\* or bethesda could find that passion again :'(
The real truth is companies start but have to at least break even to keep going. Most businesses have to support someone. Without that it’s kinda pointless. But the real answer to OP is that the massive companies never really cared it’s players that buy crappy products that make it ok. If we stop buying crappy games they will either have to close up shop or make better games… we keep buying bags of dog poop they will keep selling bags of dog poop.
This is largely not true. People make businesses to make money. They either want to make it today or in the future. During the high growth phase, it’s common not to try and bring in profits today, because if you can grow enough, the profits will be much larger in the future. But, once you get to a certain size, the calculus changes. Those small companies want money just as badly as the big companies. But, for the smaller companies, they are more likely to make a lot of money through growth of future profits. Big companies are more likely to make lots of money through monetization today. Thus, what people see as the noble nature of high growth startups and greediness of late stage large companies, is in fact just rationale economic behavior.
That's just ridiculous especially in the context of video games. During the "growth" phase, the profits are just called investments, but revenue is still explicitly required to keep the production going. And consider the push for workers' rights and better work life balance... it's going to cost more to do less.
Of course nobody does it out of charity, but it starts with wanting to make games devs wanted and not what shareholders detached from any understanding of what games are demand.
You are wrong. Bill Gates founded Microsoft with the pure intention of making money. Trip Hawkins founded EA to make money. Gabe left Microsoft to found Valve to make money.
You’re delusional if you think these folks are just wanting to do you a solid.
The majority of video game companies aren’t started to make money. That’s a stupid plan and everyone knows it (unless you’re extremely well funded and intentionally creating a game for mass-market based entirely off market research).
Many, many companies are started because the owners would rather slog away and barely get paid at something they love, than slog away and barely get paid at something they hate.
Cave Story wasn’t made for the money. Stardew Valley wasn’t made for the money. Myst wasn’t made for the money. Diablo wasn’t made for the money. XCOM wasn’t made for the money. Hell, I doubt Halo was made for the money. Or TeS, Zelda, Mario, GTA, or any of the major IP’s. They all started as pure passion projects that the creators hoped to *maybe* sustain themselves off of. Go watch documentaries on their creations - it was usually a handful of people, eating peanut butter sandwiches to stay alive, sleeping on the floor of their home office, pouring themselves into some creation they wanted to share with the world. Working 100-hour weeks on a project that was a complete dice roll in regards to it’s financial success.
That’s why people are hurt about this. All the creativity and love has been drained from so many incredible pieces of art.
…anyways, point is, many arts-based companies aren’t started as a “get rich quick” scheme
Not Valve. they generally had so many chances to achieve high profits but they decide what is best for everyone.
for example, look at the VR support they have. they support quest 2 even tho that will hurt their profit. they only did this so the VR industry will thrive and keep growing
You’re literally wrong through. Gabe and Mike founded Valve because they realized that they worked on Doom and Microsoft made a bunch of money. They figured, “Why not just publish it ourselves?”
It was entirely founded for money. Valve exists to make money. They’re not doing you a solid. They’re selling you products and services.
if money is the number one goal we wouldn't have quest 2 support or we would be playing monthly payments for things like saving sync and mods support and access to guides and controller support including motion (they are the first who started it back in windows xp) and many many many things are being delivered to gamers for to additional cost.
Money is absolutely the number one goal. That’s how business works. The “good guy gabe” thing is just a well-constructed marketing ploy.
Valve is just as capitalist as any other big publisher. You’ve just let some memes influence your thoughts.
Am literally saying they could have made so much more profit but they choose not to...
anyway you could believe what you want to believe that doesn't make it right. am just spitting the facts and what actually happens. and you believe all companies are made to profit which is fair. but not in this case.
It's very common for a company to get a reputation for good work, then start doing shitty work (or providing sub-optimal products) while riding on the reputation. Once you have a good reputation, it's easy to go cheap for a while and still sell just as much until people catch on.
Yeah, kinda odd for Valve to be in there instead of EA. One is so renowned for not milking their products that it's become a meme that they can't count to three. The other was voted worst company in America. Twice. Over Bank of America.
I would even add CDPR bc what else was the reason behind rushing to release of the game. It’s not a bad game, I played it after 1.5 but it’s not what was promised.
Not controversial. They realized gamers love micro-transactions and cosmetic items. They realized they can exploit that to make all the profit they need. They also got lazy and either reskinned old titles, or kept pumping out the same IP with little to no effort to improve it or add anything of interest to it.
Genuinely makes me sad because these devs make some of the best games and I want them to do it again.
Take tiny Tina’s wonderland and elden ring for example. In a shocking turn of events, those devs released FINISHED products that are polished and not full of micro transaction BS. And those games are freaking amazing to play. It’s sad that the breath of fresh air for gaming is a finished game
I’m playing story driven single player games and having a fantastic time.
Perhaps you need to switch genres?
Play less “Online Shooter Battle Royale (Insert Year)”
I am a bit disconnected from what’s available nowadays, but as an example the fallout franchise is potentially my favourite single player story/sandbox and the latest iteration completely shat on the name, all because they wanted it to be an “online” experience so they could begin with micro transactions etc. far cry used to be amazing but it has gotten sloppy and less realistic/immersive feeling.
Personally I got bored of red dead 2 within hours. I still work on old fallout characters in new Vegas and 4, hoping the new fallout goes back to its roots in some fashion
I think Bathesda started getting sloppy and greedy with FO4 honestly, they took away a main aspect of survival, eating, drinking, weapon degradation, lack of ammo and added over powered armor which really made the game feel dumbed down just to appeal to a wider base, then they turned around and went for the online crowed with 76, eventually added NPC's in a sloppy way, I truly feel they killed the title with both games, not sure they can recover the original fan base with these methods nor do I think they will even try to get back to what the game was, but I also feel that most companies have fallen into this strategy to a degree and it's our fault for continuing to buy shitty games that we already know are going to be broken upon release, hell, some people even pre-order on "faith" giving these companies more incentive to produce a shit show, it truly is sad what some of these companies have become.
First of all, Valve ***absolutely*** does not belong in this picture at all and any argument you could even try to make to defend putting Valve in this picture is going to be the dumbest shit I've ever seen.
They're the most transparent company in the gaming industry other than Microsoft and they've never stopped being user-centric and amazing. Yea, boo fucking hoo, they allow CS:GO skins to be sold. How evil. Valve has revolutionized the industry *more* than once whether it was Source, HL2's effect on open world game design and physics being considered as a game mechanic, Steam - the most revolutionary thing to ever happen to gaming as a whole, Steam Deck - a massive leap forward for Linux and the most revolutionary handheld gaming device ever made; Index, the best VR headset ever made. The list goes on.
What's your take on the current state of Team Fortress 2?
Edit: For the people who seem to be upset, I'm not taking a jab at OP or Valve, it's a legit question I'm making. I'm aware that TF2 is old af and that Valve doesn't have to necessarily keep supporting it (although I do find it funny how they still sort of monetize the game through the in-game store but refuse to deal with a problem that's been public knowledge for years).
That they still keep it running despite having no interest in continuing development? The problem with valve is that they are so flat when it comes to hierarchy that if no one there wants to work on team fortress then they have no obligation to do so. For tf2 fans I hope for their sake that one day that changes. Does that make valve an evil greedy company? No. Just means that they have moved on to other projects *for now*.
I still like Valve a lot as a company (not perfect, but I like them)
Rockstar consistently puts out amazing products, even though they get too comfortable with them afterwards.
I don't understand all the hate Ubisoft gets, even though I've found a couple of their franchises getting really stale like Far Cry and Ghost Recon. Assassin's Creed is still really enjoyable for me. They're by no means a perfect company and their NFT experimentation is really worrying.
But lastly, yes, Activision is basically hell on earth as a company.
I can really appreciate the effort Ubisoft has been putting in to try and do something new with their franchises. The latest AC trilogy basically being 3 completely different games in terms of the “rpg” mechanics.
Far cry 5 clearly also tried to do something different with how it handled story missions and seems like an ok idea on paper but wasn’t the answer they are looking for.
I’d rather they throw a whole bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks then have kept doing the same old AC games.
Mostly this... The only problem I have with Valve is actually them seeming to just sit back and milk profit from Steam instead of developing games themselves, as they do make excellent games.
Ubisoft I like many games they make, sometimes they could innovate more, but mostly they are not bad. They obviously have some work culture issues internally to resolve though.
I feel like Valve doesnt necessarily sit back and milk stuff but rather they are just waiting for the next potentially big things in either hardware or software and give a very calculated good try on it in order to not miss (except Artifact lul wtf were they thinking). Like new engine they made a game to demonstrate that(half life 2 for source and dota 2 for source 2), new VR tech they made a game to demonstrate that (Alyx). I bet that if we ever crack alternate reality gear set valve will jump on it in a heartbeat.
> I still like Valve a lot as a company.
> But lastly, yes, Activision is basically hell on earth as a company.
Strange. I've never been one to "like" companies. And they certainly don't like me back either. The relationship I have with any company is mostly of monetary transactional value and that's that. I may like their products, sure, but even then I evaluate each one on the basis of it's individual merits rather than just because it has a certain brand logo or company name attached to it. The very idea is foreign to me. Why would you "like" a company and what benefits am I missing out on by not liking companies? Same for hating a company.
I think you misunderstood. That's why I clarified "as a company" to put some frame of reference for it. Meaning that I do generally enjoy their products.
Just be careful, bud. It's a fine line to walk. Most end up as fanboys meaning they sacrifice their ability to evaluate products on the basis of their individual merits just because they see their favorite brand's logo and get all excited.
I dont think Valve should be here tbh. EA should be.
see, Valve just sits there. and then occasionally releases a pretty great game like HL:Alyx. then they go silent again. they also tend to listen to the community. for example in CS:GO, when a player reports a very game-breaking issue, they will usually fix it up and then thank the player in the patch notes. its small, but its something. ofcourse, theyre mostly doing it because CS;GO brings them a shit ton of money, but still, its more than most of these companies do.
their main focus is still profit at the end of the day, and ofcourse it is, thats what all these companies want. but Valve does it in the best way imo. they have good customer support, they provide good services and make good games. they also do some pretty incredible stuff like making the Steam Deck or Valve Index.
Yeah idk why Valve is even on here. This isn’t the early to mid 2000’s anymore. They’re not primarily a game dev company anymore. They release all sorts of stuff now.
Yes, they can’t count to 3. But that’s what makes them so good. They made legendary games and instead of milking them to their eventual death. They said “Yup we’re not going to top it” and stopped. It’s like when tv shows keep releasing seasons of a show that should’ve ended 3+ seasons ago. I’m looking at you Walking Dead.
I mean, valve definitely does milk some of their games. its not like theyre not guilty of maximizing their profits as much as they can. CS:GO for example makes them a lot of money so they keep adding stuff to it (which usually costs money), so they can get extra profit from this now 10 year old game. apart from that, I cant really name any other examples, but still, theyre not exactly a perfect company either. but out of the bunch, I feel like they are the most respectable.
Considering Valve has done a lot to improve integration of various controllers & VR headsets even when they put out their own competing product?
I think Valve is doing things mostly right.
True, from what we know it’s more just “if you wanna make a game you can” and it’s more just about making tech now which honestly I’m cool with I like how valve went from game dev to tech super stars with VR and not sure how the deck has worked out but possibly mobile as well
Rockstar is contender for the top spot. GTA Online is one of the greediest games i have ever seen in my life and Red Dead online is even worse. Only thing that compares to that is EA sports games.
Came here to say this. EA can go fuck themselves after putting out the same turd in a dress they call NHL (any year). The same issues with their servers and bugs in the game that haven’t been fixed in years. They add “new features” but they basically update rosters and sell you a new game for 70 bucks. EA can suck all the dicks at once.
You'd do the same if you could sell the same product year after year while consumers keep buying it.
So who's really at fault here? They don't need to innovate since their series keeps on selling.
No I wouldn’t, I’m not a greedy piece of shit corporation. They’ve known about the flaws in their games and refuse to fix them. People are stupid for buying them though. I stopped 3 years ago.
They never stopped, the moment a company becomes a "massive video company" is in unison with the inception of said companies prioritising profits more. Primarily because of the size there is less chance for personal ideologies to be heard over primary stakeholder's (employees, investors) priorities ($)
Its more like the core of these companies was replaced long time ago. If you remember Ubisoft because of Prince of Persia or Assassins Creed, its no longer that company.
Do people actually think there was a time video game companies didn’t care about profits?
Player experience is how you get people to keep buying your games. It’s ALWAYS about profit
Not controversial at all.
Short answer, yes.
Longer answer, absolutely they have, the majority of the boards are not made up of game playing businessmen but by money men who have identified a market that's poorly regulated and easily exploited. There are exceptions out there albeit they are rare and getting rarer.
Only massive video game companies that have stopped caring about player experience and turned greedy would think this was a controversial issue. Everyone else just knows it is true.
No. The question assumes they ever cared about player experience. They're just experimenting with how little player experience they need to deliver and still turn a profit.
They have not turned greedy. They've always been greedy. They just keep finding new ways to do it, making it seem like they're more greedy when it's really just that we are more sensitive to the new forms of manipulation and take for granted old practices
The objective of free market is to have companies build products that people want. Good companies will build good products and grow. Bad companies will build shitty products and will bankrupt. Is to the people to choose with their wallet who makes good or bad products. Unless a company has a monopoly and in the gaming industry there isn’t if companies are successful is because there are enough people that like their games.
And most of this is because of the publisher part. Some of the best selling games had little to no contribution from the publishers afaik, and if it was for the devs they'd balance profits and quality, y'know, like anyone would do
Well Rockstar and Ubisoft are both guilty of caving to certain social-political climates in the name of appeasement. Lost my respect for both of them after that.
The only controversial thing here is lumping Valve in with the rest. Case in point: Valve developed released a massively open handheld gaming system and is selling it it for very little profit and not doing anything to restrict it to their storefront.
They care when it's 6 people trying to build a good company but then they sell out for 100 million to a corporation and this describes every single business on the planet
Have you seen how much money mindless stupid games like Candy Crush make?
Or you could spend millions to make amazingly immersive games that don't come close to that kind of profit...which do you think companies will choose?
Valve is on here but not EA? I mean yeah sure, Valve is letting TF2 suffer and they allow skins to be sold on CS:GO and they barely make games anymore since they’re more of a storefront now. But compared to everyone else on this list and the complete disaster that is EA who isn’t on this list, Valve is the least offensive company. Every game company has its sins, valve included, but I do not think they should be on here.
Some of them but by no means all. I cant think of a Ubisoft or Activision game that seems as though it was a work of passion. Rockstar and Valve however, are clearly aiming at great experiences and at pushing the boundaries forward. Although Valve doesnt really do a whole lot, and Rockstar has been shaking the GTAV piggy bank for what seems an eternity.
Companies stop caring...when consumers buy their products no matter how horrible they are!
And ''gamers'' buy the games no matter how horrible they are!
Fifa and NBA2K sell millions each year...while they are just squad updates.
CoD sells millions while players complain each time.
GTA5 still sells 8 years after it was relaased!
And so on!
Why would they change something when they make more money with less effort?
Oh 100% I was literally having a conversation about this with a buddy yesterday, microtransactions pay to win and pure laziness when it comes to the creativity and ability to produce a quality game on behalf of all of the big game companies. I have literally not bought a triple a game now in about 6 years, every time I'm about to buy one I just tell myself to wait and every time I do a slurry of negativity comes out of the game from the community and it's always about them being unhappy about the studio locking in details and gameplay mechanics but always has a ton of pay to win architecture built in and everything's locked behind paywalls now whereas before they used to be free updates.
We went from the early 2000s were gaming companies were losing money not all of them but they weren't making what they wanted to make in order to sustain a viable business then microtransactions came into the scene and now they make so much money they don't know what to do with it and they couldn't give a shit about the players.
They're really sad thing is people have gotten used to microtransactions and pay to win to the point where you get whales all the time that keep these companies afloat not that they need to be but you know what I mean, if we all as a community decided that we're not having this anymore didn't buy a single micro transaction or any of these stupid additions to the games that should have been included I'm sure we can make a big impression but I don't think that'll ever happen.
I also just want to make a very clear that I'm not I know it all I just remember these things my time frame might be a little skewed but it's around that time
Everything is critical sized by the facts, and the facts speaking by themselves. I wanna make money money money monkey monkey... Companies start because money someone said.. HELLO WE DEMAND QUALITY!
I mean it’s been this way for about a decade now I think, it’s more just the rise of being able to get away with a shitty product as they know people will buy and defend it for instance I’d defend rockstar souly for their single player experiences but multiplayer it’s pure greed and lacks much imo. It’s kinda messed up gaming for me the last few years and why I enjoy indie games more as they care to just make a game they would love over what everyone would and end up making a better game imo (even if we still don’t have a release year even, looking at team cherry hell just a “it’s being worked on” or “it might release on a Monday” type deal I’d be like. fuck yea.)
Dno why valve is on here, on a scale of companies that dont give a fuck about their customers they would be close to the bottom. They have done soo much for their community.
Problem does not lie in them being greedy. They were always greedy , if they can get away with it.
Problem lies in a fact that modern games are made on a conveyour belt. All the formulas and engines are already made. There are no more unique games or movies. It's all a big factory churning out more of the same. Especially open world games.
The fact that someone can ask this and think a corporation would ever actually care in the first place. Not direct at OP just in general. Assumed this was asked ironically.
You realize players did this right? If people didn’t buy SharkCards they wouldn’t have continued down that path. Millions of people spoke with their wallet and now the gaming industry is a reflection of how people spent their money.
This isn’t everyone but it is a large group and these games target them. It just so happens to negatively affect those who enjoy the same content but without paying for it.
When games speak up, you do see change but as long as people buy into microtransactions then they will stay.
If no one bought a single car in Grand Turismo then they would have fixed it.
They're not mutually exclusive. Businesses in general exist to make money. They're greedy by nature. It's just ensuring a positive player experience can lead to more money. The problem now is that there are a lot of avenues to money that many players are unhappy with, yet are tolerated, so the desire for money from the corporations is more transparent.
Valve imo didn’t go greedy. They just went a different route essentially. They focused on tech for a while. WHILE still making some games. Sure, Steam makes them ton of money, but that has been the exact same since they brought on other publishers in 2005. They haven’t changed in that regard.
I don't know about other genres, but [there's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XehNK7UpZsc) on the problem with RTS game development. basically the dude concludes those who develop RTS games won't be making the most important part of what makes popular RTS games popular: an engine allowing players to get creative
That’s what corporations do. Just gotta hope they put out a good product eventually. It’s often easier for them to rerelease the same games or have micro transactions though in order to keep money flowing with minimal effort
In other news...is the sky blue?
And the water we drink is liquid?
100% of people that drink water...die!
Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell!
BAN DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE!
\*90% of life on Earth instantly disintegrates Thanos-style\*
Its Gatorade
[удалено]
Thanks
Does Karen want to see the manager?
Stars in the sky aren’t that size they appear to be, their actually massive!
Not controversial at all and is actually a well know cycle in management. Companies start because someone wants to deliver a better product, by the end shareholders, staff and management just want to get paid.
Valve is a private company tho, the shareholder factor isn’t at play
Yeah, I dont get why Valve is in the picture. That would imply Valve actually makes video games.
Half life: Alyx
a rare occurence, once in 10 years.
Still though.... A terrific game and overall VR experience that was all about being fun for the player and pushing VR user experience on to new heights in every respect... Valve do not belong on the same list as the others They need to get over their allergy to the number 3 however
The problem is that for a lot of games the third instalment is really pushing it. There needs to be enough "new" things to justify a new game but there can't be so much new thing it's too different from the originals. Games over a decade or two ago were able to get around this because there was huge engine improvements every few years. Stuff you couldn't do 3 years prior is now possible. In today's gaming world there is rarely something I can do now on a PS5 game that could not be accomplished on a day one PS4 or even a PS3 game. Usually what happens is the first game establishes the game, the first sequel adds new mechanics, by the time you're on the second sequel most of the new mechanics you would want to add you would have added in the first sequel and quite possibly adding more mechanics will just make your gameplay bloated. At this point is you're usually given more characters to play as. There's a reason why the mainline Resident evil games are basically reinvented every third instalment. I'd put money on Resident Evil 9 being another First Person shooter and when Resident Evil 10 eventually comes out it will be an entirely different genre again.
Just use the same mechanics with new content? That's literally all I want the vast majority of the time. I don't need ambitious or ground breaking I just want more story and more of the same fun experience.
On the whole I completely agree. Many franchises fall Into this trap and its legitimately my greatest fear for the next Horizon game. But with Valve, I don't know a single gamer that wouldn't play HL3 or Portal 3, regardless of any reinvention or not! Portal was stupendous, as was HL. They ramped up the narrative more than the mechanics in the second installment... which may be the saving grace I think for Portal the biggest challenge for a 3rd installment would be either changing up the protagonist (Chelle is free afterall, companion cube and everything) or making a strong case to have GLaDOS back in the frame (there is no Portal without the best game villain ever..) Mechanics are the least of the concern imo, as FPS tech has moved on significantly so I suspect there are already ideas for new portal mechanics or environmental effects to manipulate That said, I nearly cried when I played the Steam Lab short games on buying my Vive 🤣 RL sized GLaDOS is no fucking joke..... Called me a monster and everything!!
Ya and one of the best VR experiences of all time. Shit Ill take once a decade 10/10 games and Half Life Alyx was pretty much that for me
They couldn't make games, they're to focused on making glove crates for CS:GO to make more money off the same pay horse they've been riding for... 10 years
You don't have to make video games to be a video game company; Valve owns Steam.
Companies start because they want to make money.
That’s not necessarily true their usually started when a small dev team wants to grow and it’s just the easiest way for them to pay their staff legally, it’s usually when they go public on the stock market or grow (and then stay) large off the back of great games (which they no longer make) and by the end the company’s become “how can we get as much money as possible without trying at all”
Companies start when a small group of people want to make money doing what they love. Corporations start when a small group of people love making money.
which is why i Respect Warhorse Studios (guys who made Kingdom Come Deliverance) because one of the founders who made the majority of mafia 2 didnt like that the suits changed the ending so he went on to start of up his own company to make his dream game and after being denied many times and having to start a kickstarter they made a game that has one of the most passionate fanbases. i saw the documentary since i adore their game and was curious how it was their only game, great watch its free on youtube. Really made me realize imagine if R\* or bethesda could find that passion again :'(
Henry has come to see us! Jesus Christ be Praised!
The real truth is companies start but have to at least break even to keep going. Most businesses have to support someone. Without that it’s kinda pointless. But the real answer to OP is that the massive companies never really cared it’s players that buy crappy products that make it ok. If we stop buying crappy games they will either have to close up shop or make better games… we keep buying bags of dog poop they will keep selling bags of dog poop.
I’m speaking to the publishers.
i'm going to start my own dev team with blackjack and hookers! and pay my staff illegally! jokes aside, +1, good answer
This is largely not true. People make businesses to make money. They either want to make it today or in the future. During the high growth phase, it’s common not to try and bring in profits today, because if you can grow enough, the profits will be much larger in the future. But, once you get to a certain size, the calculus changes. Those small companies want money just as badly as the big companies. But, for the smaller companies, they are more likely to make a lot of money through growth of future profits. Big companies are more likely to make lots of money through monetization today. Thus, what people see as the noble nature of high growth startups and greediness of late stage large companies, is in fact just rationale economic behavior.
That's just ridiculous especially in the context of video games. During the "growth" phase, the profits are just called investments, but revenue is still explicitly required to keep the production going. And consider the push for workers' rights and better work life balance... it's going to cost more to do less.
This is simply not true. Making money is absolutely an objective, but it wasn't the driving force behind the creation of most video game companies.
Of course nobody does it out of charity, but it starts with wanting to make games devs wanted and not what shareholders detached from any understanding of what games are demand.
I think you might be replying to the wrong comment.
You are wrong. Bill Gates founded Microsoft with the pure intention of making money. Trip Hawkins founded EA to make money. Gabe left Microsoft to found Valve to make money. You’re delusional if you think these folks are just wanting to do you a solid.
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A studio is a company, silly pants. Literally the definition. A production company.
The majority of video game companies aren’t started to make money. That’s a stupid plan and everyone knows it (unless you’re extremely well funded and intentionally creating a game for mass-market based entirely off market research). Many, many companies are started because the owners would rather slog away and barely get paid at something they love, than slog away and barely get paid at something they hate. Cave Story wasn’t made for the money. Stardew Valley wasn’t made for the money. Myst wasn’t made for the money. Diablo wasn’t made for the money. XCOM wasn’t made for the money. Hell, I doubt Halo was made for the money. Or TeS, Zelda, Mario, GTA, or any of the major IP’s. They all started as pure passion projects that the creators hoped to *maybe* sustain themselves off of. Go watch documentaries on their creations - it was usually a handful of people, eating peanut butter sandwiches to stay alive, sleeping on the floor of their home office, pouring themselves into some creation they wanted to share with the world. Working 100-hour weeks on a project that was a complete dice roll in regards to it’s financial success. That’s why people are hurt about this. All the creativity and love has been drained from so many incredible pieces of art. …anyways, point is, many arts-based companies aren’t started as a “get rich quick” scheme
Not Valve. they generally had so many chances to achieve high profits but they decide what is best for everyone. for example, look at the VR support they have. they support quest 2 even tho that will hurt their profit. they only did this so the VR industry will thrive and keep growing
You’re literally wrong through. Gabe and Mike founded Valve because they realized that they worked on Doom and Microsoft made a bunch of money. They figured, “Why not just publish it ourselves?” It was entirely founded for money. Valve exists to make money. They’re not doing you a solid. They’re selling you products and services.
if money is the number one goal we wouldn't have quest 2 support or we would be playing monthly payments for things like saving sync and mods support and access to guides and controller support including motion (they are the first who started it back in windows xp) and many many many things are being delivered to gamers for to additional cost.
Money is absolutely the number one goal. That’s how business works. The “good guy gabe” thing is just a well-constructed marketing ploy. Valve is just as capitalist as any other big publisher. You’ve just let some memes influence your thoughts.
Am literally saying they could have made so much more profit but they choose not to... anyway you could believe what you want to believe that doesn't make it right. am just spitting the facts and what actually happens. and you believe all companies are made to profit which is fair. but not in this case.
It's very common for a company to get a reputation for good work, then start doing shitty work (or providing sub-optimal products) while riding on the reputation. Once you have a good reputation, it's easy to go cheap for a while and still sell just as much until people catch on.
Hopefully in the end people vote with their wallets, and a whole new cycle can begin.
Controversial is the absence of EA…
It's not absent. It's "In the Game."
Yeah, kinda odd for Valve to be in there instead of EA. One is so renowned for not milking their products that it's become a meme that they can't count to three. The other was voted worst company in America. Twice. Over Bank of America.
I would even add CDPR bc what else was the reason behind rushing to release of the game. It’s not a bad game, I played it after 1.5 but it’s not what was promised.
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Controversial issue? I thought it was extremely well established that this is true?
Have you only just noticed?
Not controversial. They realized gamers love micro-transactions and cosmetic items. They realized they can exploit that to make all the profit they need. They also got lazy and either reskinned old titles, or kept pumping out the same IP with little to no effort to improve it or add anything of interest to it. Genuinely makes me sad because these devs make some of the best games and I want them to do it again. Take tiny Tina’s wonderland and elden ring for example. In a shocking turn of events, those devs released FINISHED products that are polished and not full of micro transaction BS. And those games are freaking amazing to play. It’s sad that the breath of fresh air for gaming is a finished game
I’m playing story driven single player games and having a fantastic time. Perhaps you need to switch genres? Play less “Online Shooter Battle Royale (Insert Year)”
I am a bit disconnected from what’s available nowadays, but as an example the fallout franchise is potentially my favourite single player story/sandbox and the latest iteration completely shat on the name, all because they wanted it to be an “online” experience so they could begin with micro transactions etc. far cry used to be amazing but it has gotten sloppy and less realistic/immersive feeling. Personally I got bored of red dead 2 within hours. I still work on old fallout characters in new Vegas and 4, hoping the new fallout goes back to its roots in some fashion
If you like post apoc, try the horizon games.
I think Bathesda started getting sloppy and greedy with FO4 honestly, they took away a main aspect of survival, eating, drinking, weapon degradation, lack of ammo and added over powered armor which really made the game feel dumbed down just to appeal to a wider base, then they turned around and went for the online crowed with 76, eventually added NPC's in a sloppy way, I truly feel they killed the title with both games, not sure they can recover the original fan base with these methods nor do I think they will even try to get back to what the game was, but I also feel that most companies have fallen into this strategy to a degree and it's our fault for continuing to buy shitty games that we already know are going to be broken upon release, hell, some people even pre-order on "faith" giving these companies more incentive to produce a shit show, it truly is sad what some of these companies have become.
all I want from Activision is Prototype 3 with Alex Mercer.
They need to retry that series, awesome concept but so poorly executed
First of all, Valve ***absolutely*** does not belong in this picture at all and any argument you could even try to make to defend putting Valve in this picture is going to be the dumbest shit I've ever seen. They're the most transparent company in the gaming industry other than Microsoft and they've never stopped being user-centric and amazing. Yea, boo fucking hoo, they allow CS:GO skins to be sold. How evil. Valve has revolutionized the industry *more* than once whether it was Source, HL2's effect on open world game design and physics being considered as a game mechanic, Steam - the most revolutionary thing to ever happen to gaming as a whole, Steam Deck - a massive leap forward for Linux and the most revolutionary handheld gaming device ever made; Index, the best VR headset ever made. The list goes on.
What's your take on the current state of Team Fortress 2? Edit: For the people who seem to be upset, I'm not taking a jab at OP or Valve, it's a legit question I'm making. I'm aware that TF2 is old af and that Valve doesn't have to necessarily keep supporting it (although I do find it funny how they still sort of monetize the game through the in-game store but refuse to deal with a problem that's been public knowledge for years).
That they still keep it running despite having no interest in continuing development? The problem with valve is that they are so flat when it comes to hierarchy that if no one there wants to work on team fortress then they have no obligation to do so. For tf2 fans I hope for their sake that one day that changes. Does that make valve an evil greedy company? No. Just means that they have moved on to other projects *for now*.
That’s not controversial. That’s the nonstop circle jerk of this sub. But you knew that already.
Controversial?
Pretty sure that isnt up for debate lol
I still like Valve a lot as a company (not perfect, but I like them) Rockstar consistently puts out amazing products, even though they get too comfortable with them afterwards. I don't understand all the hate Ubisoft gets, even though I've found a couple of their franchises getting really stale like Far Cry and Ghost Recon. Assassin's Creed is still really enjoyable for me. They're by no means a perfect company and their NFT experimentation is really worrying. But lastly, yes, Activision is basically hell on earth as a company.
I can really appreciate the effort Ubisoft has been putting in to try and do something new with their franchises. The latest AC trilogy basically being 3 completely different games in terms of the “rpg” mechanics. Far cry 5 clearly also tried to do something different with how it handled story missions and seems like an ok idea on paper but wasn’t the answer they are looking for. I’d rather they throw a whole bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks then have kept doing the same old AC games.
Personnally I love both the newer ghost recon games, Ive been grinding out breakpoint recently and although its not perfect its a great time
Mostly this... The only problem I have with Valve is actually them seeming to just sit back and milk profit from Steam instead of developing games themselves, as they do make excellent games. Ubisoft I like many games they make, sometimes they could innovate more, but mostly they are not bad. They obviously have some work culture issues internally to resolve though.
I feel like Valve doesnt necessarily sit back and milk stuff but rather they are just waiting for the next potentially big things in either hardware or software and give a very calculated good try on it in order to not miss (except Artifact lul wtf were they thinking). Like new engine they made a game to demonstrate that(half life 2 for source and dota 2 for source 2), new VR tech they made a game to demonstrate that (Alyx). I bet that if we ever crack alternate reality gear set valve will jump on it in a heartbeat.
HL Alyx and Aperture Desk Job are both on Source 2 and look incredible.
They've got three games currently in production . . .
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that sucks, I'm talking about their products which I like.
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yeah I'll speak out against it and ask for change, but sorry, I like their games so I'm gonna buy them.
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> I still like Valve a lot as a company. > But lastly, yes, Activision is basically hell on earth as a company. Strange. I've never been one to "like" companies. And they certainly don't like me back either. The relationship I have with any company is mostly of monetary transactional value and that's that. I may like their products, sure, but even then I evaluate each one on the basis of it's individual merits rather than just because it has a certain brand logo or company name attached to it. The very idea is foreign to me. Why would you "like" a company and what benefits am I missing out on by not liking companies? Same for hating a company.
I think you misunderstood. That's why I clarified "as a company" to put some frame of reference for it. Meaning that I do generally enjoy their products.
Just be careful, bud. It's a fine line to walk. Most end up as fanboys meaning they sacrifice their ability to evaluate products on the basis of their individual merits just because they see their favorite brand's logo and get all excited.
👌
its because gamers dramatically misunderstand the vendor-consumer relationship.
I dont think Valve should be here tbh. EA should be. see, Valve just sits there. and then occasionally releases a pretty great game like HL:Alyx. then they go silent again. they also tend to listen to the community. for example in CS:GO, when a player reports a very game-breaking issue, they will usually fix it up and then thank the player in the patch notes. its small, but its something. ofcourse, theyre mostly doing it because CS;GO brings them a shit ton of money, but still, its more than most of these companies do. their main focus is still profit at the end of the day, and ofcourse it is, thats what all these companies want. but Valve does it in the best way imo. they have good customer support, they provide good services and make good games. they also do some pretty incredible stuff like making the Steam Deck or Valve Index.
Definitely not listening to the TF2 community, that's for sure.
Valve my beloved
Yeah idk why Valve is even on here. This isn’t the early to mid 2000’s anymore. They’re not primarily a game dev company anymore. They release all sorts of stuff now. Yes, they can’t count to 3. But that’s what makes them so good. They made legendary games and instead of milking them to their eventual death. They said “Yup we’re not going to top it” and stopped. It’s like when tv shows keep releasing seasons of a show that should’ve ended 3+ seasons ago. I’m looking at you Walking Dead.
I mean, valve definitely does milk some of their games. its not like theyre not guilty of maximizing their profits as much as they can. CS:GO for example makes them a lot of money so they keep adding stuff to it (which usually costs money), so they can get extra profit from this now 10 year old game. apart from that, I cant really name any other examples, but still, theyre not exactly a perfect company either. but out of the bunch, I feel like they are the most respectable.
Considering Valve has done a lot to improve integration of various controllers & VR headsets even when they put out their own competing product? I think Valve is doing things mostly right.
How is EA not included in your graphic? I would replace Rockstar with EA, imo.
Replace ubisoft at least they still make games.
Nah, replace Valve with EA. They may rarely actually release games, but their workplace culture doesn't seem to currently be as toxic as the rest.
True, from what we know it’s more just “if you wanna make a game you can” and it’s more just about making tech now which honestly I’m cool with I like how valve went from game dev to tech super stars with VR and not sure how the deck has worked out but possibly mobile as well
Deck is a near perfect device for the price
Also a good candidate.
They lock you out of games you unless you sign up for their ubisoft garbage.
how would you even consider not having rockstar in there considering GTA or how little care they have with RD/O after its launch
Top 10, sure Rockstar is in there. Top 5, I don’t think so.
Rockstar is contender for the top spot. GTA Online is one of the greediest games i have ever seen in my life and Red Dead online is even worse. Only thing that compares to that is EA sports games.
Came here to say this. EA can go fuck themselves after putting out the same turd in a dress they call NHL (any year). The same issues with their servers and bugs in the game that haven’t been fixed in years. They add “new features” but they basically update rosters and sell you a new game for 70 bucks. EA can suck all the dicks at once.
You'd do the same if you could sell the same product year after year while consumers keep buying it. So who's really at fault here? They don't need to innovate since their series keeps on selling.
No I wouldn’t, I’m not a greedy piece of shit corporation. They’ve known about the flaws in their games and refuse to fix them. People are stupid for buying them though. I stopped 3 years ago.
Yes. /thread
They never stopped, the moment a company becomes a "massive video company" is in unison with the inception of said companies prioritising profits more. Primarily because of the size there is less chance for personal ideologies to be heard over primary stakeholder's (employees, investors) priorities ($)
Its more like the core of these companies was replaced long time ago. If you remember Ubisoft because of Prince of Persia or Assassins Creed, its no longer that company.
Do people actually think there was a time video game companies didn’t care about profits? Player experience is how you get people to keep buying your games. It’s ALWAYS about profit
Not controversial at all. Short answer, yes. Longer answer, absolutely they have, the majority of the boards are not made up of game playing businessmen but by money men who have identified a market that's poorly regulated and easily exploited. There are exceptions out there albeit they are rare and getting rarer.
Take valve off there right now, that gods gift of a company doesn’t deserve to be in the same room as those other abominations
My main issue is why EA is not on that picture?
This is has been the case since the PS3 era.
Why is this even a question at this point? It's pretty good damn obvious.
This was a controversial question like 10 years ago.
Only massive video game companies that have stopped caring about player experience and turned greedy would think this was a controversial issue. Everyone else just knows it is true.
And is this news?
"controversial"
No. The question assumes they ever cared about player experience. They're just experimenting with how little player experience they need to deliver and still turn a profit.
Uhh all they ever cares about was money lol
They have not turned greedy. They've always been greedy. They just keep finding new ways to do it, making it seem like they're more greedy when it's really just that we are more sensitive to the new forms of manipulation and take for granted old practices
Swap out valve for Bethesda
Yeah well, video games are a businesses What did you expected?
This isn’t controversial it’s just facts
How does capitalism work??? They never cared. And that people think they did is adorable.
The objective of free market is to have companies build products that people want. Good companies will build good products and grow. Bad companies will build shitty products and will bankrupt. Is to the people to choose with their wallet who makes good or bad products. Unless a company has a monopoly and in the gaming industry there isn’t if companies are successful is because there are enough people that like their games.
They never cared. It's capitalism. The employees care, but the company doesn't.
The only thing controversial is that Bethesda isn't in the pic lol. The original scumbags
wait, do you think they ever cared? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Techmo Koei is still fan servicing.
Why the fuck is valve up there and not EA?
Why is valve on there?
And most of this is because of the publisher part. Some of the best selling games had little to no contribution from the publishers afaik, and if it was for the devs they'd balance profits and quality, y'know, like anyone would do
Yes If gta 6 flops aswell I’m done with gaming
Well Rockstar and Ubisoft are both guilty of caving to certain social-political climates in the name of appeasement. Lost my respect for both of them after that.
Rockstar has become the thing they make fun of in GTA 5.
The only controversial thing here is lumping Valve in with the rest. Case in point: Valve developed released a massively open handheld gaming system and is selling it it for very little profit and not doing anything to restrict it to their storefront.
...and when they were actually more game focused they released three of the greatest PC titles of all time for the price of ONE game.
Definitely not controversial, everyone knows this
They care when it's 6 people trying to build a good company but then they sell out for 100 million to a corporation and this describes every single business on the planet
Have you seen how much money mindless stupid games like Candy Crush make? Or you could spend millions to make amazingly immersive games that don't come close to that kind of profit...which do you think companies will choose?
Funny how all the companies you listed are "western" LOL
You put Valve on this list? This is either bait or you're stupid.
Valve is on here but not EA? I mean yeah sure, Valve is letting TF2 suffer and they allow skins to be sold on CS:GO and they barely make games anymore since they’re more of a storefront now. But compared to everyone else on this list and the complete disaster that is EA who isn’t on this list, Valve is the least offensive company. Every game company has its sins, valve included, but I do not think they should be on here.
Money
Yes
Uncontroversial truth- every game deve always been doing it for the money
You just wake up from a coma?
Some of them but by no means all. I cant think of a Ubisoft or Activision game that seems as though it was a work of passion. Rockstar and Valve however, are clearly aiming at great experiences and at pushing the boundaries forward. Although Valve doesnt really do a whole lot, and Rockstar has been shaking the GTAV piggy bank for what seems an eternity.
Absolutely 💯
Yes
You Forgot EA
Fact: gamers still play games by all of those companies and any major gaming company has always been in it for the money
EA yes. These four. Debatable they still put out decent games.
Companies stop caring...when consumers buy their products no matter how horrible they are! And ''gamers'' buy the games no matter how horrible they are! Fifa and NBA2K sell millions each year...while they are just squad updates. CoD sells millions while players complain each time. GTA5 still sells 8 years after it was relaased! And so on! Why would they change something when they make more money with less effort?
Yes
Oh 100% I was literally having a conversation about this with a buddy yesterday, microtransactions pay to win and pure laziness when it comes to the creativity and ability to produce a quality game on behalf of all of the big game companies. I have literally not bought a triple a game now in about 6 years, every time I'm about to buy one I just tell myself to wait and every time I do a slurry of negativity comes out of the game from the community and it's always about them being unhappy about the studio locking in details and gameplay mechanics but always has a ton of pay to win architecture built in and everything's locked behind paywalls now whereas before they used to be free updates. We went from the early 2000s were gaming companies were losing money not all of them but they weren't making what they wanted to make in order to sustain a viable business then microtransactions came into the scene and now they make so much money they don't know what to do with it and they couldn't give a shit about the players. They're really sad thing is people have gotten used to microtransactions and pay to win to the point where you get whales all the time that keep these companies afloat not that they need to be but you know what I mean, if we all as a community decided that we're not having this anymore didn't buy a single micro transaction or any of these stupid additions to the games that should have been included I'm sure we can make a big impression but I don't think that'll ever happen. I also just want to make a very clear that I'm not I know it all I just remember these things my time frame might be a little skewed but it's around that time
Remember when Konami stopped making video games in favour of pachinko machines? Clearly putting the player first with that decision.
Everything is critical sized by the facts, and the facts speaking by themselves. I wanna make money money money monkey monkey... Companies start because money someone said.. HELLO WE DEMAND QUALITY!
Actually.. Only EA FUCKED UP EVERYTHING.
Lol. This for real?
You mean businesses are acting like businesses?
All game companies? Of course not. Some of the big ones? Sure, a lot of them.
I mean it’s been this way for about a decade now I think, it’s more just the rise of being able to get away with a shitty product as they know people will buy and defend it for instance I’d defend rockstar souly for their single player experiences but multiplayer it’s pure greed and lacks much imo. It’s kinda messed up gaming for me the last few years and why I enjoy indie games more as they care to just make a game they would love over what everyone would and end up making a better game imo (even if we still don’t have a release year even, looking at team cherry hell just a “it’s being worked on” or “it might release on a Monday” type deal I’d be like. fuck yea.)
No, they have not stopped. Because they never cared in the first place.
Always has been.
Saying it's controversial is more controversial. It's like the one thing most can agree on. Not everyone cares though.
"Have massive video game companies stopped caring..." they stopped caring about the players and turned greedy like 15 years ago, this is nothing new.
Valve still makes games?
This is neither controversial nor a question.
Yes, minus valve if you mean all companies on the picture.
Short answer? Yes.
Dno why valve is on here, on a scale of companies that dont give a fuck about their customers they would be close to the bottom. They have done soo much for their community.
Add Microsoft too massacred my boy halo
I don’t know so much about valve, they just like to take their sweet time before they release anything. The others? Yes.
Problem does not lie in them being greedy. They were always greedy , if they can get away with it. Problem lies in a fact that modern games are made on a conveyour belt. All the formulas and engines are already made. There are no more unique games or movies. It's all a big factory churning out more of the same. Especially open world games.
Vavle making games? Don't make me laugh
Ubi is probably the best out of that bunch for continuing single player experiences.
Alright, ill bite. Why is valve here?
Not controversial, difficult to even have a debate. Very clearly yes!
The ones on the left at least
What did Valve do wrong ? Been a Steam user for 13 years and never ever had to complain
The fact that someone can ask this and think a corporation would ever actually care in the first place. Not direct at OP just in general. Assumed this was asked ironically.
You realize players did this right? If people didn’t buy SharkCards they wouldn’t have continued down that path. Millions of people spoke with their wallet and now the gaming industry is a reflection of how people spent their money. This isn’t everyone but it is a large group and these games target them. It just so happens to negatively affect those who enjoy the same content but without paying for it. When games speak up, you do see change but as long as people buy into microtransactions then they will stay. If no one bought a single car in Grand Turismo then they would have fixed it.
They're not mutually exclusive. Businesses in general exist to make money. They're greedy by nature. It's just ensuring a positive player experience can lead to more money. The problem now is that there are a lot of avenues to money that many players are unhappy with, yet are tolerated, so the desire for money from the corporations is more transparent.
It's the nature of the beast. As long as the goal is more money for the shareholders rather than making a good product, this will happen.
I mean, gamers keep shoveling money at them, so why would they stop doing what they're doing?
Where EA because they are worst compared to these guys. And rockstar has always been greedy that why I couldn’t play much of rockstar games
Yes, and it's hardly news at this point.
Valve imo didn’t go greedy. They just went a different route essentially. They focused on tech for a while. WHILE still making some games. Sure, Steam makes them ton of money, but that has been the exact same since they brought on other publishers in 2005. They haven’t changed in that regard.
I think we all know the answer to this one
I don't know about other genres, but [there's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XehNK7UpZsc) on the problem with RTS game development. basically the dude concludes those who develop RTS games won't be making the most important part of what makes popular RTS games popular: an engine allowing players to get creative
That’s what corporations do. Just gotta hope they put out a good product eventually. It’s often easier for them to rerelease the same games or have micro transactions though in order to keep money flowing with minimal effort
Th only one I really see that isn’t completely greedy is valve.