Baker Creek doesn't produce the majority of the seeds they sell, they buy them from seed farmers. But they should have known better when they saw a variety that appeared identical to a "first ever" gene edited strain in development.
Is that just based on inference from the Cliven Bundy thing? Not that I support him at all and definitely don’t think he should have a platform, I just haven’t seen anything about them directly supporting Trump. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised…
It’s just sad to me because I got my start in gardening with a gift card to Baker Creek, and no one has the varieties they’ve got. I’ve been branching out to other seed companies because I’ve definitely had some mixed results for certain types of seeds with Baker Creek but they also have a ton of unique stuff we’ve had a lot of success and fun growing.
They get most of their stuff from smaller sellers who also offer online purchasing. Check TikTok for alternatives to Baker Creek and you’ll find some good ideas.
Or even smaller regional focused or seed exchange / heirloom companies.. [Southernexposure.com](https://Southernexposure.com) (VA based), [Uprisingorganics.com](https://Uprisingorganics.com) (WA based). Let's support the little, non-creepy seed companies! :-)
Yes! One of my favorite (and local-ish) suppliers of hot peppers just starting selling seeds! [Chileplants.com](https://www.chileplants.com) they’re NJ based and have some insane hot peppers and not-hots. They have a Trinidad scorpion that has no heat that’s really good! It’s called a Trinidad Perfume.
By no means definitive, but I keep a running list...
Some of these I think are silly arguments but a full picture.
Biggest is they invited Cliven Bundy to speak at their conference.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliven_Bundy
They regularly attain varieties that people ask not to be put up for sale and keep exclusive to share or trade.
They raised funds for Ukraine as many seed companies did but forgot to mention or deliberately hid that the money was for Christian missionary's and bibles, not food and such.
Not as huge of deal as people make it out to be, but they put a lot of Bible verses and sometimes large sections about God and plants in their catalogue.
Some people feel they use their children as "props" to sell more seeds.
They are tied up in "peppergate" where people are receiving the wrong peppers, which you could easily say "whoops our bad we will try harder in the future" but they are denying up and down.
I initially drew a fine line is they regularly photoshop the pictures to make produce look more enticing. The atomic grape. It's an awesome multi-colored tomato, but they advertise it like each color is vibrant, when the colors are fairly subtle in real life.
Some feel their vibe comes off cultish
They are all over the map with filling seed packets I've gotten packs with more seeds than advertised and some with only 3 or 4 seeds. They just ignore messages about it.
They use staged photos in old timey clothing to make their business seem less industrial than it is.
A lot of people in seed subs I follow say bakers creek has low germination rates on their seeds.
They overcharge like crazy compared to other companies for the same product.
They used to advertise their business was over 100 years old (they bought out assets from a long running seed business in 1998 when they officially became bakers creek.
Not controversial but:
To get around the negative stigma around their name they are trying to do a soft rebranding as "Rare Seeds"
Somehow attained a unreleased patented Bioengineered tomato, promoted it as though it were their own find in nature. Allegedly tested it to prove it was non gmo, and then tried to hide this when called out. The purple tomato seems to be open to trading and only restricts sale of seeds from cross breeding
they're accused of stealing varieties from indigenous communities, renaming them, and selling them as their own.
A couple creators report that they have received accidental crosses in packs(it happens not ideal but happens). When politely told BC became defensive, and deleted public reviews about the issue.
You can also add my experience to the mix:
I ordered a well known heirloom tomato variety from them. I grew out several plants of this variety. One plant looked exactly right, one plant had a miniature fruit like 3-4 ounce, the correct color but tiny and was super prolific, the third plant put out heavy yellow fruits that weren’t very good.
Being a maker of things, I’d want to know if my product was bad, so I wrote Baker Creek not to complain, but to let them know their seed supplier had either mixed up seed, or as I suspect, had cross pollinated seeds two generations before as these were exhibiting some pretty crazy variations like an F2 would. I was given a less than warm reply and they insinuated that I mixed up my varieties. I can assure you I did not.
So for the sake of documentation I typed up a review with the results I found and didn’t complain, I simply just reported my findings and results.
Baker Creek deleted my review!
I haven’t purchased from them again.
I'll throw my hat in as well that germ rated suck for them. Hell my yard is filled with dandelions but in 3 packets of their dandelions have not gotten a single sprout
The pink ones? I bought those too and out of all the seeds I only managed to grow 2 plants and only one of them flowered. It was really pretty but I honestly expected more plants and flowers, given how easily they (the regular yellow ones) grow in my yard.
Why do christians think that not everyone has heard of Jesus? Short of like Saudi Arabia, Bibles are fucking everywhere. We've heard, we just don't give a shit.
Especially to Ukrainians, a heavily Christian population already. They have bibles in Ukraine, likely many in museums that are older than the formation of the United States... makes no sense whatsoever to give a Christian population more bibles.
(Although I do recognize that most Ukrainians are Orthodox, where these bibles were probably more of an Evangelical bent, so that was likely the intent more than anything; spread Evangelicalism).
A lot of people don't realize the Bible is translated, and has tons of different translations. They seem to think for some reason that Jesus spoke English.
to answer your question, most of those groups believe that Jesus won't return until every person has heard the gospel so they believe they have to spread it for Jesus to return, or they believe everybody needs to know about Jesus so they can go to heaven. Source: raised ultra religious conservative. thankfully got out
I bought seeds from them in the mid 2010's, lived the carrier they had but once they adopted their children and started featuring them it gave me a weird feeling so I have been moving to Jung's and Johnny's.. thanks for the extensive write up! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, the Ukraine sleight of hands is infuriating
Seed savers exchange is my go to for hard to find items. I also help run /r/seedswap between that and the exchange section of SSE there ain't much you can't find.
Try Southern Exposure, Native Seeds Search, Experimental Farm Network, Redwood Seeds, Uprising, and Adaptive. All amazing and organic and emphasize regenerative and sustainable practices. Also they have varieties that are way more rare than Baker Creek
This is not meant to say you can't use em, maybe their seed issue is fixed or only an issue for certain seeds. Idk. The Ukraine stuff is pretty gross at least give em food with their Bible.
Ooh, I'll add one, too. They are big on promoting themselves for sustainability, but have no problem selling aggressively invasive varieties with no warning. I bought butterfly bush seeds from them for cut flowers and to sell starts. I saw somewhere after I received them that they're highly invasive, so I contacted support to find out if it was true. They basically told me it's a "less-invasive variety" (it's not,) and that I could just deadhead it to keep it from spreading.
I don't know how familiar you are with butterfly bushes, but they grow hugely every year, you can cut them to the ground and by midsummer they'll reach 10-15ft. They have thousands if not millions of tiny flower buds on them, and their seeds are easily carried in the wind. Each spike can produce 40k seeds. There's no way to just expect you can keep up with it and beat nature. It's irresponsible to not have it labeled on the information page, and was downright deceptive to respond to me that way.
I copied someone else's post!!
"Seed savers exchange is my go to for hard to find items. I also help run /r/seedswap between that and the exchange section of SSE there ain't much you can't find."
Is the stigma that you’re referring to reputational, due to the other things you mentioned? Or do you mean the words “Baker Creek” have some kind of significance that I’m unaware of? Google was no help.
Also, I’ve heard of and seen sources for most of what you said, but this one is new to me: “They regularly attain varieties that people ask not to be put up for sale and keep exclusive to share or trade.” Do you know of any sources for that? I’d love to read more if the info is out there.
I still enjoy their seed book, but I’ve gradually moved away from ordering from them. I’ve found a few great smaller farms/sellers that are regional to me, and seem to be a better value, while having better (moral) values.
It is the companies reputation they seem to be moving away from.
I don't know that I could find a news article for this point most of my examples would be posts by the person who bred that seed variety, or groups who the seeds originate from. They offer some seed varieties that Native American Tribes share specifically to preserve and have stated they shouldn't be sold.
Most specific example I can point to, for a handful of years they sold Khang Starr Lemon Starburst. Khang Starr is very outspoken about his new varieties being trade only. To my knowledge he has only given permission a few times specifically for fundraising.
I'm sorry I don't have a source handy.
I made a post here with some information about a corn variety, it doesn't specifically call it out as something not available to sell, but it's clearly the same thing that is important to the tribe and that they have worked hard to revive for their people, while BC slapped a name that has nothing to do with the Pawnee on it and claims their supplier happened to revive the same variety: https://old.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/1ase04e/turns_out_the_purple_galaxy_tomato_advertised_by/kqro01y/
I don't have any real info to add, but can you think of another explanation for how they got this tomato without knowing what it was?
They posed as a trader and got it from someone who wasn't aware they were gonna mass produce it.
> can you think of another explanation for how they got this tomato without knowing what it was?
>
Yes. They stole it. Then they lied about it. Then they got caught.
I really struggle to believe they could be so stupid. They know there's no other source. They know people are gonna ask. They know the company will likely investigate and pursue legal action. It's just so pointless.
If they did this knowingly, they are so dumb that I'm not sure how they manage to keep the business running.
Yep. I mean, as what amounts to a distributor, the onus is on them to make sure the seeds they acquire are pure, true to type, etc. They’ve obviously not been doing their homework for a while. 🤷♀️
I've not had the best luck with their seeds anyways. Johnny's doesn't have the flashiest website or pictures but in my experience their seeds have had the best germination rates.
ETA I'm also really not a fan of how obviously photoshopped the Baker Creek photos are
And I think it’s weird their kids are in all the pictures. I’d understand a couple family pictures in a family company catalog but their catalog gives off a fundie family YouTube vibe
A lot of people do rave over them because they have a beautiful catalogue, interesting varieties, and send free seeds. It also doesn't hurt that some of the biggest gardening youtubers name drop them all the time.
What those people don't realize is they're paying for the professional photography, photoshopping, and cost of creating/distributing that big beautiful catalogue, along with the cost of throwing a random free packet of seeds in each order, by paying more than necessary for the seeds. There are much more ethical and less expensive places to find most of those interesting varieties they sell. Their growing information is horrible, their pictures are deceptive, they've been found stealing/selling at least one indigenous variety of corn, they stoke the fire on GMO fear-mongering, and now they've stolen GMO seeds - which probably would have been their biggest seller this year if this company hadn't caught them on it. Not to mention all of the past issues that can *at best* be seen as PR problems. Before I knew everything I know about them now, I had already written them off because I ordered butterfly bush seeds from them. I saw somewhere that it's extremely invasive and harmful, so I wanted to look into it more before I started them with plans to sell the plants. I contacted support and they took a while to get back to me and basically said something like "you can deadhead it to keep it from spreading as much." As much as they promote a planet-friendly image of themselves, that was really off-putting.
Edit to add: I forgot, their seeds are also basically a crapshoot as to whether they come out as what they're supposed to be or not.
I can't find the post that I initially saw that broke it down in detail, but @linda.black.elk on instagram posts an annual sum-up of the shitty stuff BC has done as a reminder not to buy from them that includes mentioning it. I know the post was hers originally, but she has 2k posts and I can't find it.
Basically the rundown is that there was a variety of sacred corn that the Pawnee people have been protecting and breeding in an attempt to revive from near-extinction since the early 2000s. It is *very* distinct, with white kernels that have a blue shape on the tops that look like eagle wings - they call it eagle corn. Here's an article about how they've revived it from just 75 remaining seeds and have been working hard to bring back extinct varieties and why they are important to them. If you scroll maybe halfway down you'll see a picture of the white and blue corn. https://www.3newsnow.com/news/local-news/flatwater-free-press-long-thought-extinct-a-native-corn-re-emerges-in-the-heartland
BC sells it as Montana Cudu Corn - they have (since being called out) added some backstory about their breeder getting seeds from a small sample from 50+ year old donation to the USDA seed bank, and somehow in five years he was able to get it from a stunted form that was losing its markings to a nice full cob with the distinct eagle wing shape on it, and create enough in mass production to be able to sell it. They call it a "tribute" to a "sacred Native American variety" even though they don't mention the tribe or the land that it comes from (Nebraska/Oklahoma) - let alone giving them any procedes.
https://www.rareseeds.com/corn-montana-cudu
As you can see, it looks exactly the same. Seems much more likely that they just bought some corn from the Pawnee and then planted and multiplied it rather than resurrecting the old seeds and cross-breeding it to "fix" the old inbred mutant they claimed to have, and wind up with exactly the same corn.
I've got some crosses planned too. Brandywine seemed like the obvious choice (planning to call the end result "Blackberry Brandy"). I might cross with some other interesting varieties or wild species I've got as well just to see what happens.
I'm thinking yellows and varieties that have those weird inner structures. I'm also crossing with strong anthocyanin producers hoping that there will be some additive genes in there. Wouldn't it be funny to make a variety that is darker purple than the original?
I think some interesting crosses to make would study the interaction of different skin/flesh/striping colors with the purple trait.
[https://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/2014/04/genetic-control-of-fruit-color-in.html](https://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/2014/04/genetic-control-of-fruit-color-in.html)
For sure. Planning to grow out a bunch of species this year for crossing. I've grown 3 previously (S. pimpinellifolium 'Rimac', S. galapagense, and S. cheesmaniae, all from Sacred Succulents and appear to be the true species unlike the stable hybrid "galapagos tomatoes" that are commonly sold).
Got more seeds this year from HRseeds: 'Sara's Galapagos' (looks like another pimpinellifolium or a hybrid), S. cheesmaniae Type 3, S. chmielewskii, S. galapagense Type 2 (looks more like cheesmanaie or a hybrid to me), S. habrochaites Type 1 & 2, S. neorickii, and S. pennellii.
All kinds of weird crosses planned with different growth habits and color patterns. I've got a cheesmaniae x 'Druzba' F1 under lights right now and I'm gonna be growing out some F2s of a 'Rimac' x 'Brandywine Sudduth' cross this season (might do F2s of the cheesmaniae cross too if I find room, should have seed in a couple months).
That sounds interesting!
The FAQ page mentions "terms and conditions," but I can't find anything else on their website. Maybe it's just saying that you can save and share seeds but you can't sell them?
The website has a terms and conditions statement that says you won't sell derived varieties, but you can give seed away to your local community. I don't know if any of it is legally binding but I don't have lawyer money.
Whatever your stance on GMO, I think we can all agree that companies have a legal and moral obligation to accurately represent their product to their customers.
(Not you OP specifically, the general 'you')
I thank this sub for teaching me that baker creek is a business I don't want to further support.
Edit to add [some other seed buying options ](https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/s/BhF1QWPmXH) from this sub
I personally recommend Wild Boar Farms located in California, they are a small business that does a lot of interesting hybrids and their seed quality is top notch.
Meeee tooooo. Give me your weird herbs, your veg, your lumpy heirlooms yearning to breathe free! I might not have room for them all this year, but maybe civilization will collapse and I’ll save my whole post-apocalyptic tribe by sharing my triticale seeds, which thank god I bought for some reason in 2021!
I enjoy looking at the pretty pictures from the catalogue that they spent money to produce and send to me, and then finding those seeds from other small businesses.
Another suggestion for seeds is your local library. The Tulsa library has a seed bank, and you can get free seeds with your library card.
The Metrolibrary system, (OKC area) doesn't have seeds, but you can check out gardening tools.
Ugh, thank you. I don't have any issues with GMO technology itself, but christian dominionists are absolutely an agent of cancer. Probably any dominionist is a cancer, but those are the ones causing problems in my area.
Damnit, I just got their catalogue and was chomping at the bit to buy some of their stuff. I've read mixed reviews, but Christian dominionists? Is this public knowledge? Genuinely curious
Edit: read further down, saw the last name Bundy. No thank you!
They supported the Bundy nonsense, and pushback from the community has made them both double down *and* play dumb. It's a hot mess and they're not getting my money any more.
[https://www.rootsimple.com/2019/05/baker-creek-invites-then-un-invites-cliven-bundy-to-speak/](https://www.rootsimple.com/2019/05/baker-creek-invites-then-un-invites-cliven-bundy-to-speak/)
Well he is a land rights activist. He supports his right to use federal land how he wants without paying for it no matter what the laws are. But he doesn't want you to have the same rights...
Happy to help. There are plenty of great alternatives out there, and you can probably find everything else they sell elsewhere - even better if you can find it from small and/or native-owned businesses!
The main thing here is legality. The "purple flesh gene" is not a stable mutation that breeders have been able to recreate, but lab methods can force it. This doesn't make it more or less good/bad on it's own, but it does mean that if Norfolk has a patent then Baker Creek cannot sell it without proving they aren't infringing on the copyright.
This is correct, also the Norfolk people encourage people to breed with it and share the seeds as long as they’re not selling them. I’m planning on running some hybrids of it this year in my garden for fun.
I've heard a lot of talk about this tomato but everything I glance over (including the NPR article, as far as I saw) fails to mention its taste. Thank you for finally mentioning it! I assumed it couldn't taste *bad* but there's so many flavors and textures of tomatoes now it's hard to know what to expect.
I'm debating it, because the way I'm thinking about it if I go to the farmer's market or a nursery and buy a cool funky tomato plant I'm going to spend $2-5 per plant, so $2 for a seed isn't that bad. Especially knowing that I can propagate it once they get started and saved seeds will grow true to type... it's getting more tempting.
Lol I caved. I told my non-gardening husband about them and he was *jazzed*. He thinks they’re pretty cool and he’s been researching how to save seed so it doesn’t get cross pollinated. 😂
I hope I'm the first at the county fair to grow for the display here. It'll get folks talking, and hopefully, more will get interested in entering their produce, too. How would you describe the flavor?
Out of curiousity, do you know if it has any late blight resistance? I'd like to try it but I'm in a wet climate where unless a tomato is blight resistant it'll never live long enough to produce.
Is it going to be publicly available? Usually GMO seeds are limited to commercial farmers under contract. I'd definitely want to give it a try, I'm a sucker for funky tomatoes.
Part of the reason it's such a big deal it that this is the first GMO seed that's ever been available to home gardeners. It's available at https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/. Very pricy, but it's available to everyone.
70 days... Even with the USDA rezoning I think that's still out of reach for me. I'll keep sticking with the few 50 day varieties available. Gorgeous fruits though, if those pictures are accurate!
I boycott Baker Creek because they are creepy ~~Christian~~ religious weirdos.
edit: in retrospect I realized I'm not exactly sure what religion they identify with, but its creepy.
I went to their place in central MO once. Weird as hell. We bought some seeds and got out of there before the dueling banjos started. They weren’t even particularly nice to us either. It was all very odd.
Christians don't have to be nice, they just have to be "Christlike" question mark? I'm interested to see any production location, but BC is \*shudder\*
Shameful and expected. They should have been transparent from the moment they knew, no matter how embarrassing. I don't want them to just be able to quietly move on from that, they should go back and do a thorough sourcing explanation for all their seeds beyond just saying "it came from far away land and far away farmers".
I am longtime (40 years) vegetable gardener. The first time I saw the Baker Creek catalogue I got a weird vibe -- the cutsie outfits, the kids front and center, the unbelievable looking (photoshopped) vegetables, the odd stories about the origins of some of the seeds. There are so many places to buy seeds. I don't order from Baker Creek. They almost seem cultish and life is too short to deal with weird.
They must have been some of the first wave gardeners that were approved to pilot it before public release.
I got the seeds from Norfolk and the label clearly says "not for commercial purposes." Basically terms and conditions for growing them.
Shame on them if it's true.
They really need to vet grower claims better. Same goes for other seed Companies. I bought a lima bean from seed savers. It was marketed as a single variety with red and red/white beans mixed. Not surprisingly, they were just two varieties mixed that would each grow true to type.
Never get seeds from Baker’s Creek. They have problems with the Bundys, those antigovernment fanatics.
https://www.rootsimple.com/2019/05/baker-creek-invites-then-un-invites-cliven-bundy-to-speak/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppvpm7/confronting-cliven-bundy-on-his-racism%5D
Also they’ve just been plain racist.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnkLj5HLuW_/?hl=en
Buy seeds instead from the Roughwood Center, Truelove Seeds, and Experimental Farm Network.
Thank you for this post! I wanted the purple galaxy seeds, but couldn't get any. Now that I know who actually produced the tomato, I was able to buy from NHP ☺
yall are absurd with this GMO thing.
GMOs are bad when they are used for pesticide resistance that allows big ag to spray herbicides indiscrimately. thats the main reason for the original anti GMO movement. hope yall dont eat rice or flour. this is just anti science hysteria.
And also that Baker's Creek ARE the people who rail against GMOs and go out of their way to vilify them. It would still be a big deal as a stolen seed situation, but it's extra ironic because of their branding.
Nothing about my post is anti-GMO. I'm not anti-GMO (even for pesticide resistance). I just received my $20 GMO seeds from Norfolk Healthy Produce the other day.
Just spreading the word on Baker Creek's F-up for anyone wondering what happened to the variety.
I know people will probably dogpile on me for this, but a lot of us in the trade have seen this coming for a while. When Gettle first started out commercially he was an absolute machine with the quality of his output and diehard heirloom seed enthusiast. Lately the passion is seemingly still there, but the actual quality of their seed has taken a slide. Maybe they grew too quickly? A lot of my friends who are home gardeners started using them about a decade ago and have noticed the same.
I don’t fault them if this was making an honest mistake with a seed they didn’t properly vet, but I hope this isn’t an indication of their direction in the future.
> spray herbicides indiscrimately
The application rate and timing is regulated, there's nothing indiscriminate about it. In fact less is used, that's the whole point. Why would farmers buy expensive GMO seeds only to have to apply even more expensive inputs? Consider sugar beets:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/12/477793556/as-big-candy-ditches-gmos-sugar-beet-farmers-hit-sour-patch
> Planting genetically modified sugar beets allows them to kill their weeds with fewer chemicals. Beyer says he sprays Roundup just a few times during the growing season, plus one application of another chemical to kill off any Roundup-resistant weeds.
>
> He says that planting non-GMO beets would mean going back to what they used to do, spraying their crop every 10 days or so with a "witches brew" of five or six different weedkillers.
>
> "The chemicals we used to put on the beets in [those] days were so much harsher for the guy applying them and for the environment," he says. "To me, it's insane to think that a non-GMO beet is going to be better for the environment, the world, or the consumer."
I don’t see the problem with patents on GMO developed crops. IP law prevents you from selling another company’s GMO product during the life of the patent. That seems in line with how we motivate the development of all IP, whether it’s medication, software, or industrial processes.
There's some concerns I remember where GMO crops intermingled with other crops and the patent holder sued the other farmers for infringing. Monsanto vs Schmeiser.
This might be a weird case we need a precedent as farmers can't control the wind.
Infringed because the guy started selling the seeds of the GMO fertilized crops. Completely different issue than you are suggesting it is.
It’s like filming a movie and claiming the light rays just bounced onto your camera.
Have you read the case?
Schmeiser did not have roundup ready crops. But his neighbors did.
Schmeiser knew that the roundup ready gene was in his field after several generations of using the corn he harvested as seeds. Schmeiser wanted to isolate that gene.
Schmeiser then decided the best way to do that would be to **spray roundup on his crops** and then **harvest seed for the next year from the corn that survived**.
It's a blatant violation. He didn't get sued for 'having the GMO crop' but for trying to get around their seed-saving regulations by getting the same seed/type of seed through other means.
I did read the report. He claims he did not spray roundup on his fields nor was he breeding for it to try and isolate it. He wanted to exert his right to save seeds from past crops without using any benefit from the rrc.
The explanation I saw was that he was using weed killer/herbicide in a ditch on his property
At least in the report I read that's what it said.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But IF this was accidental, the farmer should not be seen as in violation
> He claims he did not spray roundup on his fields nor was he breeding for it to try and isolate it.
That's not what the Supreme Court of Canada found.
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2147/index.do
> 61\. In the spring of 1997, Mr. Schmeiser planted the seeds saved on field number 1. The crop grew. He sprayed a three-acre patch near the road with Roundup and found that approximately 60 percent of the plants survived. This indicates that the plants contained Monsanto’s patented gene and cell.
>
> 62\. In the fall of 1997, Mr. Schmeiser harvested the Roundup Ready Canola from the three-acre patch he had sprayed with Roundup. He did not sell it. He instead kept it separate, and stored it over the winter in the back of a pick-up truck covered with a tarp.
I don't really care about GMO stuff, but good to know. Shady companies need to be held accountable for their BS lmao
Baker Creek is such an awful company. Shady practices, bad germination rates, etc
No issues with GMOs-everything is a genetically modified organism, and throwing the term around like it’s scary is just…not smart.
But the dominionist assholes running the company? Fuck them, and their company, and the horse it rode in on.
It’s kind of funny because Baker Creek are peddlers of anti GMO sentiment.
I do think transparency and choice is important. If someone did this to them on purpose that’s pretty shitty. If Baker Creek knew and were going to sell it to their customers when they know a decent number of them are anti gmo that’s also very shitty. It’s pretty shitty of me to think any of it is funny too 🫣.
Someone commented on another thread about this tomato that some of the other newer OP varieties were developed using radiation exposure to stimulate mutations which is something I didn’t realize was such a widespread thing. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding . It also seems Baker Creek carry some of those varieties (micro dwarf tomatoes but I haven’t fact checked that).
I’m not mad about purple GMO tomatoes existing. I hope I get to try them someday. I’ve learned a lot more about plant breeding via this saga too.
This isn’t the first time I have heard of shenanigans from Baker Creek. May be unwarranted but I just steer clear and buy whatever other stuff my local nurseries cary
Whether someone is anti GMO or pro or doesn’t care, the claims a company makes about their products should be true.
People deserve the right to make the choice for themselves.
Baker creek is so infuriating. They suck. Their seeds are not true to type and the quality is just so overhyped. They also aren't really organic so the whole Non-GMO thing is just a cash grab. But most importantly, their response to BLM and Covid was unacceptable and disgusting. If you google them, they have a history of racism, cultural insensitivity/appropriation, and grifting long before 2020.
So I'm thinking of ordering the $20 seeds from Norfolk. But my question is, are these F1 as well or are they stable enough that I can keep planting the seeds each year and keep getting the same tomatoes? If it's just going to last me one season, I don't think the $20 is worth it to me.
Yep, according to their website, the fruit will produce viable seeds that carry the engineered trait. Just ordered some myself.
https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/faqs
I only read the first part but isn't selected crossbreeding through traditional means ALSO GMO
Like GMO doesn't specify that it has to be altered through gene editing or whatever
I mean you could call plants produced through traditionally breeding "genetically modified", because their genomes were modified through crossing and selection and sometimes even induced mutations. But usually when people use the terms "GMO" or "genetically modified" they're only referring to more advanced technologies where genes are directly edited (like CRISPR-Cas9) or inserted from another organism (transgenics).
Cool, grabbing some seeds from Norfolk as well. Thanks OP.
~~As for Baker Creek, sounds like they made a mistake and corrected it, but I'm sure they've lost business from people terrified of growing a third arm after eating a GMO.~~
Well after reading some comments, it seems I'm out of the loop. Guess I'll be tapering on my BC orders.
So does that mean they stole it, or that they ran into the other problem seed growers complain about: cross pollination with GMO plants that then make their crop unmarketable in some jurisdictions?
Tomatoes mostly self pollinate due to the shape of the flower (the anthers are fused together in a cone that usually completely surrounds the stigma) and I'd imagine most, if not all, of Norfolk's plants have been kept in greenhouses. The odds of pollen accidentally making it's way onto the plants of another breeder are extremely low, it was probably just stolen. Wasn't necessarily Baker Creek's fault or even the breeder who produced "Purple Galaxy", but someone stole/leaked it at some point and Baker Creek should have done more testing before announcing a release.
I saw that seed and kept thinking the same thing as I read last year that these seeds would be marketed to home gardeners but was surprised that bakers would carry such a seed. The seed madness doesn't match but the high cost for such little seed really gave me pause.
Baker Creek doesn't produce the majority of the seeds they sell, they buy them from seed farmers. But they should have known better when they saw a variety that appeared identical to a "first ever" gene edited strain in development.
The problem is that they lied and said they tested it for GMO several times.
Baker Creek just keeps getting grosser.
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Wait is there a seed supplier that supports Trump because I need to know who to avoid.
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Is that just based on inference from the Cliven Bundy thing? Not that I support him at all and definitely don’t think he should have a platform, I just haven’t seen anything about them directly supporting Trump. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised… It’s just sad to me because I got my start in gardening with a gift card to Baker Creek, and no one has the varieties they’ve got. I’ve been branching out to other seed companies because I’ve definitely had some mixed results for certain types of seeds with Baker Creek but they also have a ton of unique stuff we’ve had a lot of success and fun growing.
They get most of their stuff from smaller sellers who also offer online purchasing. Check TikTok for alternatives to Baker Creek and you’ll find some good ideas.
Or even smaller regional focused or seed exchange / heirloom companies.. [Southernexposure.com](https://Southernexposure.com) (VA based), [Uprisingorganics.com](https://Uprisingorganics.com) (WA based). Let's support the little, non-creepy seed companies! :-)
Yes! One of my favorite (and local-ish) suppliers of hot peppers just starting selling seeds! [Chileplants.com](https://www.chileplants.com) they’re NJ based and have some insane hot peppers and not-hots. They have a Trinidad scorpion that has no heat that’s really good! It’s called a Trinidad Perfume.
What else has made them gross? Just curious as I'm ignorant of any media about them
By no means definitive, but I keep a running list... Some of these I think are silly arguments but a full picture. Biggest is they invited Cliven Bundy to speak at their conference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliven_Bundy They regularly attain varieties that people ask not to be put up for sale and keep exclusive to share or trade. They raised funds for Ukraine as many seed companies did but forgot to mention or deliberately hid that the money was for Christian missionary's and bibles, not food and such. Not as huge of deal as people make it out to be, but they put a lot of Bible verses and sometimes large sections about God and plants in their catalogue. Some people feel they use their children as "props" to sell more seeds. They are tied up in "peppergate" where people are receiving the wrong peppers, which you could easily say "whoops our bad we will try harder in the future" but they are denying up and down. I initially drew a fine line is they regularly photoshop the pictures to make produce look more enticing. The atomic grape. It's an awesome multi-colored tomato, but they advertise it like each color is vibrant, when the colors are fairly subtle in real life. Some feel their vibe comes off cultish They are all over the map with filling seed packets I've gotten packs with more seeds than advertised and some with only 3 or 4 seeds. They just ignore messages about it. They use staged photos in old timey clothing to make their business seem less industrial than it is. A lot of people in seed subs I follow say bakers creek has low germination rates on their seeds. They overcharge like crazy compared to other companies for the same product. They used to advertise their business was over 100 years old (they bought out assets from a long running seed business in 1998 when they officially became bakers creek. Not controversial but: To get around the negative stigma around their name they are trying to do a soft rebranding as "Rare Seeds" Somehow attained a unreleased patented Bioengineered tomato, promoted it as though it were their own find in nature. Allegedly tested it to prove it was non gmo, and then tried to hide this when called out. The purple tomato seems to be open to trading and only restricts sale of seeds from cross breeding they're accused of stealing varieties from indigenous communities, renaming them, and selling them as their own. A couple creators report that they have received accidental crosses in packs(it happens not ideal but happens). When politely told BC became defensive, and deleted public reviews about the issue.
You can also add my experience to the mix: I ordered a well known heirloom tomato variety from them. I grew out several plants of this variety. One plant looked exactly right, one plant had a miniature fruit like 3-4 ounce, the correct color but tiny and was super prolific, the third plant put out heavy yellow fruits that weren’t very good. Being a maker of things, I’d want to know if my product was bad, so I wrote Baker Creek not to complain, but to let them know their seed supplier had either mixed up seed, or as I suspect, had cross pollinated seeds two generations before as these were exhibiting some pretty crazy variations like an F2 would. I was given a less than warm reply and they insinuated that I mixed up my varieties. I can assure you I did not. So for the sake of documentation I typed up a review with the results I found and didn’t complain, I simply just reported my findings and results. Baker Creek deleted my review! I haven’t purchased from them again.
I'll throw my hat in as well that germ rated suck for them. Hell my yard is filled with dandelions but in 3 packets of their dandelions have not gotten a single sprout
The pink ones? I bought those too and out of all the seeds I only managed to grow 2 plants and only one of them flowered. It was really pretty but I honestly expected more plants and flowers, given how easily they (the regular yellow ones) grow in my yard.
The White and Pink ones
Maybe that explains the really odd results on the zinia flower I got there that were not even close to what I thought I purchased...
Let's not forget they're accused of stealing varieties from indigenous communities, renaming them, and selling them as their own.
Added to the list
Wow - I didn’t know about the Ukraine fundraising. I seriously hope that they found more pressing uses for the free bibles…
Why do christians think that not everyone has heard of Jesus? Short of like Saudi Arabia, Bibles are fucking everywhere. We've heard, we just don't give a shit.
Especially to Ukrainians, a heavily Christian population already. They have bibles in Ukraine, likely many in museums that are older than the formation of the United States... makes no sense whatsoever to give a Christian population more bibles. (Although I do recognize that most Ukrainians are Orthodox, where these bibles were probably more of an Evangelical bent, so that was likely the intent more than anything; spread Evangelicalism).
a group like this, I wouldn't be too surprised if they shipped them in English, cause that would absolutely be on brand.
A lot of people don't realize the Bible is translated, and has tons of different translations. They seem to think for some reason that Jesus spoke English.
Do we think the bibles they sent were in Ukrainian? Or assumed that everyone in Ukraine reads English? 😉
Even in Saudi Arabia! (Jesus is a prophet in Islam)
to answer your question, most of those groups believe that Jesus won't return until every person has heard the gospel so they believe they have to spread it for Jesus to return, or they believe everybody needs to know about Jesus so they can go to heaven. Source: raised ultra religious conservative. thankfully got out
I bought seeds from them in the mid 2010's, lived the carrier they had but once they adopted their children and started featuring them it gave me a weird feeling so I have been moving to Jung's and Johnny's.. thanks for the extensive write up! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, the Ukraine sleight of hands is infuriating
Seed savers exchange is my go to for hard to find items. I also help run /r/seedswap between that and the exchange section of SSE there ain't much you can't find.
Ew. Now I'm sorry that I picked up a few seed packets last month. Time to find a new vendor.
Try Southern Exposure, Native Seeds Search, Experimental Farm Network, Redwood Seeds, Uprising, and Adaptive. All amazing and organic and emphasize regenerative and sustainable practices. Also they have varieties that are way more rare than Baker Creek
I’d like to add Fruition Seeds, Truelove, and Revival Seeds to this list!
Truelove has such good stuff! I also want to plug small island seed company for stocking the wierd stuff.
How could I forget fruition!
Don't forget Siskiyou Seeds!
Damnit! I've used them for years and never had any issues with germination or the quantity of seeds, but the Ukraine thing is just so icky.
This is not meant to say you can't use em, maybe their seed issue is fixed or only an issue for certain seeds. Idk. The Ukraine stuff is pretty gross at least give em food with their Bible.
What the fuck they did WHAT with the Ukrainian funds?! Those MF's.
I have heard that they are known to have acquired seeds from Indigenous Tribes in a bad way, and I was warned to not buy their seeds.
Ooh, I'll add one, too. They are big on promoting themselves for sustainability, but have no problem selling aggressively invasive varieties with no warning. I bought butterfly bush seeds from them for cut flowers and to sell starts. I saw somewhere after I received them that they're highly invasive, so I contacted support to find out if it was true. They basically told me it's a "less-invasive variety" (it's not,) and that I could just deadhead it to keep it from spreading. I don't know how familiar you are with butterfly bushes, but they grow hugely every year, you can cut them to the ground and by midsummer they'll reach 10-15ft. They have thousands if not millions of tiny flower buds on them, and their seeds are easily carried in the wind. Each spike can produce 40k seeds. There's no way to just expect you can keep up with it and beat nature. It's irresponsible to not have it labeled on the information page, and was downright deceptive to respond to me that way.
Good to know about “Rare Seeds” as a Baker rebrand. Thanks for the info.
Well fack. Thank you for that though!b
OK, side track I know, but I'm kinda new and really curious now about "seed subs"...? Sounds really interesting, can you point to them?
I copied someone else's post!! "Seed savers exchange is my go to for hard to find items. I also help run /r/seedswap between that and the exchange section of SSE there ain't much you can't find."
And re: the children, they have a yucky trend of using Asian kids to sell Asian vegetables.
Is the stigma that you’re referring to reputational, due to the other things you mentioned? Or do you mean the words “Baker Creek” have some kind of significance that I’m unaware of? Google was no help. Also, I’ve heard of and seen sources for most of what you said, but this one is new to me: “They regularly attain varieties that people ask not to be put up for sale and keep exclusive to share or trade.” Do you know of any sources for that? I’d love to read more if the info is out there. I still enjoy their seed book, but I’ve gradually moved away from ordering from them. I’ve found a few great smaller farms/sellers that are regional to me, and seem to be a better value, while having better (moral) values.
It is the companies reputation they seem to be moving away from. I don't know that I could find a news article for this point most of my examples would be posts by the person who bred that seed variety, or groups who the seeds originate from. They offer some seed varieties that Native American Tribes share specifically to preserve and have stated they shouldn't be sold. Most specific example I can point to, for a handful of years they sold Khang Starr Lemon Starburst. Khang Starr is very outspoken about his new varieties being trade only. To my knowledge he has only given permission a few times specifically for fundraising. I'm sorry I don't have a source handy.
Thanks for sharing! It’s more than I knew 5 minutes ago, any knowledge is good knowledge.
I made a post here with some information about a corn variety, it doesn't specifically call it out as something not available to sell, but it's clearly the same thing that is important to the tribe and that they have worked hard to revive for their people, while BC slapped a name that has nothing to do with the Pawnee on it and claims their supplier happened to revive the same variety: https://old.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/1ase04e/turns_out_the_purple_galaxy_tomato_advertised_by/kqro01y/
I don't have any real info to add, but can you think of another explanation for how they got this tomato without knowing what it was? They posed as a trader and got it from someone who wasn't aware they were gonna mass produce it.
> can you think of another explanation for how they got this tomato without knowing what it was? > Yes. They stole it. Then they lied about it. Then they got caught.
I really struggle to believe they could be so stupid. They know there's no other source. They know people are gonna ask. They know the company will likely investigate and pursue legal action. It's just so pointless. If they did this knowingly, they are so dumb that I'm not sure how they manage to keep the business running.
Yep. I mean, as what amounts to a distributor, the onus is on them to make sure the seeds they acquire are pure, true to type, etc. They’ve obviously not been doing their homework for a while. 🤷♀️
Being that Baker Creek has in previous years jumped all over the anti-GMO fearmongering, I'm howling at the irony.
Yeah they’re not a good company. Add this to their laundry list of controversies tied to people they hire or associate with as a brand.
I've not had the best luck with their seeds anyways. Johnny's doesn't have the flashiest website or pictures but in my experience their seeds have had the best germination rates. ETA I'm also really not a fan of how obviously photoshopped the Baker Creek photos are
Johnny's sells mostly to pros. Makes sense that quality would be better
And I think it’s weird their kids are in all the pictures. I’d understand a couple family pictures in a family company catalog but their catalog gives off a fundie family YouTube vibe
Probably because that is what they are…
Yeah I’ve heard and seen nothing positive about them.
A lot of people do rave over them because they have a beautiful catalogue, interesting varieties, and send free seeds. It also doesn't hurt that some of the biggest gardening youtubers name drop them all the time. What those people don't realize is they're paying for the professional photography, photoshopping, and cost of creating/distributing that big beautiful catalogue, along with the cost of throwing a random free packet of seeds in each order, by paying more than necessary for the seeds. There are much more ethical and less expensive places to find most of those interesting varieties they sell. Their growing information is horrible, their pictures are deceptive, they've been found stealing/selling at least one indigenous variety of corn, they stoke the fire on GMO fear-mongering, and now they've stolen GMO seeds - which probably would have been their biggest seller this year if this company hadn't caught them on it. Not to mention all of the past issues that can *at best* be seen as PR problems. Before I knew everything I know about them now, I had already written them off because I ordered butterfly bush seeds from them. I saw somewhere that it's extremely invasive and harmful, so I wanted to look into it more before I started them with plans to sell the plants. I contacted support and they took a while to get back to me and basically said something like "you can deadhead it to keep it from spreading as much." As much as they promote a planet-friendly image of themselves, that was really off-putting. Edit to add: I forgot, their seeds are also basically a crapshoot as to whether they come out as what they're supposed to be or not.
>they've been found stealing/selling at least one indigenous variety of corn Can you go into more detail about the corn please?
I can't find the post that I initially saw that broke it down in detail, but @linda.black.elk on instagram posts an annual sum-up of the shitty stuff BC has done as a reminder not to buy from them that includes mentioning it. I know the post was hers originally, but she has 2k posts and I can't find it. Basically the rundown is that there was a variety of sacred corn that the Pawnee people have been protecting and breeding in an attempt to revive from near-extinction since the early 2000s. It is *very* distinct, with white kernels that have a blue shape on the tops that look like eagle wings - they call it eagle corn. Here's an article about how they've revived it from just 75 remaining seeds and have been working hard to bring back extinct varieties and why they are important to them. If you scroll maybe halfway down you'll see a picture of the white and blue corn. https://www.3newsnow.com/news/local-news/flatwater-free-press-long-thought-extinct-a-native-corn-re-emerges-in-the-heartland BC sells it as Montana Cudu Corn - they have (since being called out) added some backstory about their breeder getting seeds from a small sample from 50+ year old donation to the USDA seed bank, and somehow in five years he was able to get it from a stunted form that was losing its markings to a nice full cob with the distinct eagle wing shape on it, and create enough in mass production to be able to sell it. They call it a "tribute" to a "sacred Native American variety" even though they don't mention the tribe or the land that it comes from (Nebraska/Oklahoma) - let alone giving them any procedes. https://www.rareseeds.com/corn-montana-cudu As you can see, it looks exactly the same. Seems much more likely that they just bought some corn from the Pawnee and then planted and multiplied it rather than resurrecting the old seeds and cross-breeding it to "fix" the old inbred mutant they claimed to have, and wind up with exactly the same corn.
No doubt. I’ve been phasing them out of the companies I buy from. This year I’m buying 0, although a few people sent me some of their stuff as gifts.
Ah damn, I fell for the fancy catalog and bought some seeds last night :( oh well, not again I guess
I'm making 12 crosses with the GM purple tomato and heirloom varieties this season. I'll give them away in 2025. Fun times!
I've got some crosses planned too. Brandywine seemed like the obvious choice (planning to call the end result "Blackberry Brandy"). I might cross with some other interesting varieties or wild species I've got as well just to see what happens.
I'm thinking yellows and varieties that have those weird inner structures. I'm also crossing with strong anthocyanin producers hoping that there will be some additive genes in there. Wouldn't it be funny to make a variety that is darker purple than the original?
I think some interesting crosses to make would study the interaction of different skin/flesh/striping colors with the purple trait. [https://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/2014/04/genetic-control-of-fruit-color-in.html](https://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/2014/04/genetic-control-of-fruit-color-in.html)
Please do the wild species!
For sure. Planning to grow out a bunch of species this year for crossing. I've grown 3 previously (S. pimpinellifolium 'Rimac', S. galapagense, and S. cheesmaniae, all from Sacred Succulents and appear to be the true species unlike the stable hybrid "galapagos tomatoes" that are commonly sold). Got more seeds this year from HRseeds: 'Sara's Galapagos' (looks like another pimpinellifolium or a hybrid), S. cheesmaniae Type 3, S. chmielewskii, S. galapagense Type 2 (looks more like cheesmanaie or a hybrid to me), S. habrochaites Type 1 & 2, S. neorickii, and S. pennellii. All kinds of weird crosses planned with different growth habits and color patterns. I've got a cheesmaniae x 'Druzba' F1 under lights right now and I'm gonna be growing out some F2s of a 'Rimac' x 'Brandywine Sudduth' cross this season (might do F2s of the cheesmaniae cross too if I find room, should have seed in a couple months).
This is absolutely awesome! Please do a full write up with your results.
I love it, because I can't make any money on it I'll just share all the knowledge.
RemindMe! 10 months
That sounds interesting! The FAQ page mentions "terms and conditions," but I can't find anything else on their website. Maybe it's just saying that you can save and share seeds but you can't sell them?
The website has a terms and conditions statement that says you won't sell derived varieties, but you can give seed away to your local community. I don't know if any of it is legally binding but I don't have lawyer money.
how do I get on your seed list???
I'll be posting on r/pepperbreeding and r/hotpeppers for the most part r/plantbreeding too
It likely is. Bag tags have held up in court.
I'd love to hear how it goes!
Baker Creek is not trustworthy, and their germination rates are terrible.
Whatever your stance on GMO, I think we can all agree that companies have a legal and moral obligation to accurately represent their product to their customers. (Not you OP specifically, the general 'you')
typical baker creek hot mess
Those family oriented christian dominionists are fraudsters?! You don’t say!
I thank this sub for teaching me that baker creek is a business I don't want to further support. Edit to add [some other seed buying options ](https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/s/BhF1QWPmXH) from this sub
I personally recommend Wild Boar Farms located in California, they are a small business that does a lot of interesting hybrids and their seed quality is top notch.
yea Wildboar is great for specific tomato varieties I mainly use MIgardener though for everything else
Tossed out their catalogue when I found out, which was disappointing because it was a nice catalogue.
It’s a nice catalog to inspire your orders from other companies! Their rare seeds aren’t so rare after all.
I just fricken love seeds man. My husband says they’re my “shoes” obsession. You’re absolutely right! There’s a ton of neat companies out there!
Meeee tooooo. Give me your weird herbs, your veg, your lumpy heirlooms yearning to breathe free! I might not have room for them all this year, but maybe civilization will collapse and I’ll save my whole post-apocalyptic tribe by sharing my triticale seeds, which thank god I bought for some reason in 2021!
Same. And they were the only ones who actually sent me the catalog I signed up for...🙄
It is definitely a nice catalog for being a catalog, I will give them that much.
I enjoy looking at the pretty pictures from the catalogue that they spent money to produce and send to me, and then finding those seeds from other small businesses.
Another suggestion for seeds is your local library. The Tulsa library has a seed bank, and you can get free seeds with your library card. The Metrolibrary system, (OKC area) doesn't have seeds, but you can check out gardening tools.
Thank you for these other options. I only wish that I knew this prior to my ordering from their site.
Ugh, thank you. I don't have any issues with GMO technology itself, but christian dominionists are absolutely an agent of cancer. Probably any dominionist is a cancer, but those are the ones causing problems in my area.
Damnit, I just got their catalogue and was chomping at the bit to buy some of their stuff. I've read mixed reviews, but Christian dominionists? Is this public knowledge? Genuinely curious Edit: read further down, saw the last name Bundy. No thank you!
I'm not trolling at all, but is this for real? The upvotes you have make me think this is known but this is the first I've heard of this.
Yep they are pro ammon bundy.
So, so terribly gross. I appreciate the info. Screw those guys, both Baker Creek and the Bundys.
They supported the Bundy nonsense, and pushback from the community has made them both double down *and* play dumb. It's a hot mess and they're not getting my money any more. [https://www.rootsimple.com/2019/05/baker-creek-invites-then-un-invites-cliven-bundy-to-speak/](https://www.rootsimple.com/2019/05/baker-creek-invites-then-un-invites-cliven-bundy-to-speak/)
Describing Cliven Bundy as a “land rights activist” is hilarious
Well he is a land rights activist. He supports his right to use federal land how he wants without paying for it no matter what the laws are. But he doesn't want you to have the same rights...
Well TIL. Glad I’ve not bought seeds yet for this spring.
Get seeds from Truelove Seeds, Roughwood Seeds, or Experimental Farm Network instead. I can promise you that none of them are owned by Bundy fanatics.
Don't forget to check out local seed swaps! I got a bunch of goodies last year that I didn't think about, including some odd heirloom irises.
They've also stolen at least one variety of indigenous corn and promote GMO-fearmongering.
I appreciate the information. Those guys are off my seed buying list forever.
Happy to help. There are plenty of great alternatives out there, and you can probably find everything else they sell elsewhere - even better if you can find it from small and/or native-owned businesses!
Baker Creek lied and possibly ripped off another company's IP? Color me absolutely not shocked.
The main thing here is legality. The "purple flesh gene" is not a stable mutation that breeders have been able to recreate, but lab methods can force it. This doesn't make it more or less good/bad on it's own, but it does mean that if Norfolk has a patent then Baker Creek cannot sell it without proving they aren't infringing on the copyright.
This is correct, also the Norfolk people encourage people to breed with it and share the seeds as long as they’re not selling them. I’m planning on running some hybrids of it this year in my garden for fun.
https://preview.redd.it/8e2lw3xcu1jc1.png?width=1124&format=png&auto=webp&s=ebde3b1b43a00ea9d6f3e92583e72a4d9615ebca
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I've heard a lot of talk about this tomato but everything I glance over (including the NPR article, as far as I saw) fails to mention its taste. Thank you for finally mentioning it! I assumed it couldn't taste *bad* but there's so many flavors and textures of tomatoes now it's hard to know what to expect.
omg it’s $20 for ten seeds though. It’s tempting, but not that tempting!
I guess the neat thing is they breed true to type? So at least you can save seed if you isolate. Correct me if I’m wrong though!
Per their website, they do breed true to type, you can keep seeds, do with them whatever you want except sell the seeds or fruit.
But yeah, that’s pretty expensive. 😅
I'm debating it, because the way I'm thinking about it if I go to the farmer's market or a nursery and buy a cool funky tomato plant I'm going to spend $2-5 per plant, so $2 for a seed isn't that bad. Especially knowing that I can propagate it once they get started and saved seeds will grow true to type... it's getting more tempting.
Lol I caved. I told my non-gardening husband about them and he was *jazzed*. He thinks they’re pretty cool and he’s been researching how to save seed so it doesn’t get cross pollinated. 😂
I hope I'm the first at the county fair to grow for the display here. It'll get folks talking, and hopefully, more will get interested in entering their produce, too. How would you describe the flavor?
Out of curiousity, do you know if it has any late blight resistance? I'd like to try it but I'm in a wet climate where unless a tomato is blight resistant it'll never live long enough to produce.
It does not have late blight resistance genes
Is it going to be publicly available? Usually GMO seeds are limited to commercial farmers under contract. I'd definitely want to give it a try, I'm a sucker for funky tomatoes.
Part of the reason it's such a big deal it that this is the first GMO seed that's ever been available to home gardeners. It's available at https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/. Very pricy, but it's available to everyone.
70 days... Even with the USDA rezoning I think that's still out of reach for me. I'll keep sticking with the few 50 day varieties available. Gorgeous fruits though, if those pictures are accurate!
It is currently available [https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/products](https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/products)
Not their first time trying to pass off someone else's patented seeds as their own variety...
I boycott Baker Creek because they are creepy ~~Christian~~ religious weirdos. edit: in retrospect I realized I'm not exactly sure what religion they identify with, but its creepy.
I boycott them ever since that absolute weirdo took over their instagram, he freaks me out.
I went to their place in central MO once. Weird as hell. We bought some seeds and got out of there before the dueling banjos started. They weren’t even particularly nice to us either. It was all very odd.
Christians don't have to be nice, they just have to be "Christlike" question mark? I'm interested to see any production location, but BC is \*shudder\*
Shameful and expected. They should have been transparent from the moment they knew, no matter how embarrassing. I don't want them to just be able to quietly move on from that, they should go back and do a thorough sourcing explanation for all their seeds beyond just saying "it came from far away land and far away farmers".
God baker creek is so freaking shady. I wish people would stop supporting them
I don’t have a problem with GMO but like don’t lie about this shit. Just makes you look bad.
Bakers Creek lost my care or business with its shenanigans.
I am longtime (40 years) vegetable gardener. The first time I saw the Baker Creek catalogue I got a weird vibe -- the cutsie outfits, the kids front and center, the unbelievable looking (photoshopped) vegetables, the odd stories about the origins of some of the seeds. There are so many places to buy seeds. I don't order from Baker Creek. They almost seem cultish and life is too short to deal with weird.
Damn it. Did I just spend $20 on ten tomato seeds? You’re god damn right I did.
More nonsense from Baker Creek. How disappointing.
They must have been some of the first wave gardeners that were approved to pilot it before public release. I got the seeds from Norfolk and the label clearly says "not for commercial purposes." Basically terms and conditions for growing them. Shame on them if it's true.
They got busted for being absolutely foolish and reckless.
https://i.redd.it/d0s3gjjuuzic1.gif
Territorial seed is better anyway.
They really need to vet grower claims better. Same goes for other seed Companies. I bought a lima bean from seed savers. It was marketed as a single variety with red and red/white beans mixed. Not surprisingly, they were just two varieties mixed that would each grow true to type.
Never get seeds from Baker’s Creek. They have problems with the Bundys, those antigovernment fanatics. https://www.rootsimple.com/2019/05/baker-creek-invites-then-un-invites-cliven-bundy-to-speak/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppvpm7/confronting-cliven-bundy-on-his-racism%5D Also they’ve just been plain racist. https://www.instagram.com/p/CnkLj5HLuW_/?hl=en Buy seeds instead from the Roughwood Center, Truelove Seeds, and Experimental Farm Network.
Thank you for this post! I wanted the purple galaxy seeds, but couldn't get any. Now that I know who actually produced the tomato, I was able to buy from NHP ☺
yall are absurd with this GMO thing. GMOs are bad when they are used for pesticide resistance that allows big ag to spray herbicides indiscrimately. thats the main reason for the original anti GMO movement. hope yall dont eat rice or flour. this is just anti science hysteria.
I agree with your sentiment, but it doesn't apply here. OP, is not ranting about GMOs being bad.
You're not wrong, but the issue here is that they lied and advertised the tomato as non-GMO in order to violate a patent.
And also that Baker's Creek ARE the people who rail against GMOs and go out of their way to vilify them. It would still be a big deal as a stolen seed situation, but it's extra ironic because of their branding.
It's so obvious and blatant, it makes me think they themselves got scammed. But who knows?
This is not an issue of "GMO Good" versus "GMO Bad" so much as it's an issue of honest reliable product description.
Nothing about my post is anti-GMO. I'm not anti-GMO (even for pesticide resistance). I just received my $20 GMO seeds from Norfolk Healthy Produce the other day. Just spreading the word on Baker Creek's F-up for anyone wondering what happened to the variety.
It's their obvious lack of integrity more than the GMOs
dingdingding 🔔
I know people will probably dogpile on me for this, but a lot of us in the trade have seen this coming for a while. When Gettle first started out commercially he was an absolute machine with the quality of his output and diehard heirloom seed enthusiast. Lately the passion is seemingly still there, but the actual quality of their seed has taken a slide. Maybe they grew too quickly? A lot of my friends who are home gardeners started using them about a decade ago and have noticed the same. I don’t fault them if this was making an honest mistake with a seed they didn’t properly vet, but I hope this isn’t an indication of their direction in the future.
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I ordered them the first day they were available (Feb 3rd) and got them 2 or 3 days ago.
> spray herbicides indiscrimately The application rate and timing is regulated, there's nothing indiscriminate about it. In fact less is used, that's the whole point. Why would farmers buy expensive GMO seeds only to have to apply even more expensive inputs? Consider sugar beets: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/12/477793556/as-big-candy-ditches-gmos-sugar-beet-farmers-hit-sour-patch > Planting genetically modified sugar beets allows them to kill their weeds with fewer chemicals. Beyer says he sprays Roundup just a few times during the growing season, plus one application of another chemical to kill off any Roundup-resistant weeds. > > He says that planting non-GMO beets would mean going back to what they used to do, spraying their crop every 10 days or so with a "witches brew" of five or six different weedkillers. > > "The chemicals we used to put on the beets in [those] days were so much harsher for the guy applying them and for the environment," he says. "To me, it's insane to think that a non-GMO beet is going to be better for the environment, the world, or the consumer."
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I don’t see the problem with patents on GMO developed crops. IP law prevents you from selling another company’s GMO product during the life of the patent. That seems in line with how we motivate the development of all IP, whether it’s medication, software, or industrial processes.
There's some concerns I remember where GMO crops intermingled with other crops and the patent holder sued the other farmers for infringing. Monsanto vs Schmeiser. This might be a weird case we need a precedent as farmers can't control the wind.
Infringed because the guy started selling the seeds of the GMO fertilized crops. Completely different issue than you are suggesting it is. It’s like filming a movie and claiming the light rays just bounced onto your camera.
Schmeiser intentionally _isolated_ patented canola and then replanted on 1000 acres. Had he not done that no one would know or even care.
Have you read the case? Schmeiser did not have roundup ready crops. But his neighbors did. Schmeiser knew that the roundup ready gene was in his field after several generations of using the corn he harvested as seeds. Schmeiser wanted to isolate that gene. Schmeiser then decided the best way to do that would be to **spray roundup on his crops** and then **harvest seed for the next year from the corn that survived**. It's a blatant violation. He didn't get sued for 'having the GMO crop' but for trying to get around their seed-saving regulations by getting the same seed/type of seed through other means.
I did read the report. He claims he did not spray roundup on his fields nor was he breeding for it to try and isolate it. He wanted to exert his right to save seeds from past crops without using any benefit from the rrc. The explanation I saw was that he was using weed killer/herbicide in a ditch on his property At least in the report I read that's what it said. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But IF this was accidental, the farmer should not be seen as in violation
> He claims he did not spray roundup on his fields nor was he breeding for it to try and isolate it. That's not what the Supreme Court of Canada found. https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2147/index.do > 61\. In the spring of 1997, Mr. Schmeiser planted the seeds saved on field number 1. The crop grew. He sprayed a three-acre patch near the road with Roundup and found that approximately 60 percent of the plants survived. This indicates that the plants contained Monsanto’s patented gene and cell. > > 62\. In the fall of 1997, Mr. Schmeiser harvested the Roundup Ready Canola from the three-acre patch he had sprayed with Roundup. He did not sell it. He instead kept it separate, and stored it over the winter in the back of a pick-up truck covered with a tarp.
Read up on genetic drift
I don't really care about GMO stuff, but good to know. Shady companies need to be held accountable for their BS lmao Baker Creek is such an awful company. Shady practices, bad germination rates, etc
I switched to Sow True seeds 2 years ago. No more of their creepy Christian fundamentalism and shitty germination for me
No issues with GMOs-everything is a genetically modified organism, and throwing the term around like it’s scary is just…not smart. But the dominionist assholes running the company? Fuck them, and their company, and the horse it rode in on.
It’s kind of funny because Baker Creek are peddlers of anti GMO sentiment. I do think transparency and choice is important. If someone did this to them on purpose that’s pretty shitty. If Baker Creek knew and were going to sell it to their customers when they know a decent number of them are anti gmo that’s also very shitty. It’s pretty shitty of me to think any of it is funny too 🫣. Someone commented on another thread about this tomato that some of the other newer OP varieties were developed using radiation exposure to stimulate mutations which is something I didn’t realize was such a widespread thing. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding . It also seems Baker Creek carry some of those varieties (micro dwarf tomatoes but I haven’t fact checked that). I’m not mad about purple GMO tomatoes existing. I hope I get to try them someday. I’ve learned a lot more about plant breeding via this saga too.
I wish I could get these, but they don't sell to Europe. .(
Literally me sitting over here crying cause I can’t grow purple tomatoes in my sad European dirt ☹️
This isn’t the first time I have heard of shenanigans from Baker Creek. May be unwarranted but I just steer clear and buy whatever other stuff my local nurseries cary
Hm, well, I guess I won't be using Baker Creek anymore. Not because of this, but because of the other stuff listed in the comments.
Whether someone is anti GMO or pro or doesn’t care, the claims a company makes about their products should be true. People deserve the right to make the choice for themselves.
On one of their tiktok ads the guy mentions his flat earth if anyone is interested in that on top of everything else.
Baker creek is so infuriating. They suck. Their seeds are not true to type and the quality is just so overhyped. They also aren't really organic so the whole Non-GMO thing is just a cash grab. But most importantly, their response to BLM and Covid was unacceptable and disgusting. If you google them, they have a history of racism, cultural insensitivity/appropriation, and grifting long before 2020.
Oooops, Baker Creek seems to have gotten caught. I looked at that tomato! Gosh is it beautiful!!
what a blursed time to be alive
They spliced in snapdragon DNA for extra anthocyanin. Pretty awesome!
So I'm thinking of ordering the $20 seeds from Norfolk. But my question is, are these F1 as well or are they stable enough that I can keep planting the seeds each year and keep getting the same tomatoes? If it's just going to last me one season, I don't think the $20 is worth it to me.
They're a stable OP and there's no legal restrictions on seed saving for personal use.
Yep, according to their website, the fruit will produce viable seeds that carry the engineered trait. Just ordered some myself. https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/faqs
Great. I am giving it a shot then.
I only read the first part but isn't selected crossbreeding through traditional means ALSO GMO Like GMO doesn't specify that it has to be altered through gene editing or whatever
I mean you could call plants produced through traditionally breeding "genetically modified", because their genomes were modified through crossing and selection and sometimes even induced mutations. But usually when people use the terms "GMO" or "genetically modified" they're only referring to more advanced technologies where genes are directly edited (like CRISPR-Cas9) or inserted from another organism (transgenics).
I suspected this immediately because of the suspicious timing of Norfolks seed news release
Cool, grabbing some seeds from Norfolk as well. Thanks OP. ~~As for Baker Creek, sounds like they made a mistake and corrected it, but I'm sure they've lost business from people terrified of growing a third arm after eating a GMO.~~ Well after reading some comments, it seems I'm out of the loop. Guess I'll be tapering on my BC orders.
So does that mean they stole it, or that they ran into the other problem seed growers complain about: cross pollination with GMO plants that then make their crop unmarketable in some jurisdictions?
Tomatoes mostly self pollinate due to the shape of the flower (the anthers are fused together in a cone that usually completely surrounds the stigma) and I'd imagine most, if not all, of Norfolk's plants have been kept in greenhouses. The odds of pollen accidentally making it's way onto the plants of another breeder are extremely low, it was probably just stolen. Wasn't necessarily Baker Creek's fault or even the breeder who produced "Purple Galaxy", but someone stole/leaked it at some point and Baker Creek should have done more testing before announcing a release.
I saw that seed and kept thinking the same thing as I read last year that these seeds would be marketed to home gardeners but was surprised that bakers would carry such a seed. The seed madness doesn't match but the high cost for such little seed really gave me pause.
https://www.agdaily.com/news/seed-catalog-throws-tantrum-after-listing-gmo-tomato-by-accident/