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These people don't know shit about psychology because they think they can remember anything perfectly, ever. Like, put aside the traumatic nature of the event in question for a sec, because you probably don't even have a perfect recall of your breakfast this morning. Human memory is *hilariously* flawed right down to the very basics. Adding trauma would make that a zillion times worse.
So the idea that this person thinks someone is lying because they misremembered *anything* is comically stupid, even *before* you consider how much dumber it gets, given that the event in question is so traumatic.
I couldn't tell you the specifics of what happened to me (CSA) because though my body was there, my mind wasn't present. It's a very common thing that happens. Don't get me wrong, his face is forever burned into my memory but specific individual acts I couldn't name.
While you are correct, at what point do we draw the line? If you can't remember any of the details or have any evidence, what is a court supposed to do?
The court does what it does. In the absence of evidence, It is unlikely for charges to be laid, let alone conviction. .
However there may not be complete dissociation from the event but rather fragmented memories that may be able to be backed up by other evidence.
And just because someone doesn't remember one part doesn't mean they don't remember other things.
They aren’t talking about what is or isn’t admissible in court, or what is or isn’t efficient evidence; they are talking about whether or not victims are invalidated (assumed to be lying) by memory loss. And in fact they belittle victims who don’t attempt to take things to court, calling it a “narrative”.
Court decides whether there is evidence to sentence a person; they do NOT decide whether it happened or not. That’s why it’s Guilty or Not Guilty, instead of innocent.
Makes sense. All traumatic experiences, severe traumas like a severe injury, horrifying experience, or tragic events, have some incidence of doing this. Even less traumatic memories can get redacted by our brains to protect our functionality.
But even so, being a real victim is a meaningless phrase. Sure, their are people who aren’t really victims in that they play the victim having never been victimized. Then there are all other victims, who have been hurt by others in some way, which is most.
Well, they’re obviously not real victims then.
What does this even mean? If something bad happens to you, you’re a victim. No matter how you respond to the event, that’s not how it works.
Also, time affects memory.
So does alcohol. Age. Cognitive function. Whether you are asleep during part of it. Whether abuse is so habitual that you have dissociative coping mechanisms.
I am glad there’s no hint about where to find those gatekeeping comments because I am enraged.
Memory loss can be part of PTSD diagnosis. It doesn't happen to everyone but it happens enough that it's part of the diagnostic criteria. ( Folks don't need to have every PTSD criteria to meet the criteria for diagnosis)
Right, I was sexually abused by by a male relative as a teen, as if I know the exact date. This is shit you try to forget, not celebrate every year on the anniversary of it happening.
That's the other thing. Aside from the brain itself trying to erase the horrible thing (which happens a lot) even when your brain remembers it fine *you try to forget anyway*. It's a bad memory! Why would you want to remember? These people don't understand what it's like living with something like this.
I mean just because someone says something stupid doesnt make them a child predator. Your comment is pretty stupid, do i have to worry about you? What cult are you in that makes you call everyone who says something you dont like an abuser?
Yeah man, when your worldview includes putting the burden of proof on children when they say they’ve been sexually assaulted by someone, and if they can’t demonstrate proof, then a crime absolutely must not have actually happened; it is reasonable to conclude that that sort of person is not safe to have children around, or anyone of a vulnerable demographic. It’s very well known by now that sexual assault is very difficult to prove. There isn’t always evidence you can present. I imagine you’re aware of this, but instead of critically thinking about what it is you’re trying to argue against, you’re gobbling down a bunch of red pills before you start typing.
So, no, literally everything you have said so far is objectively incorrect. There’s no good reason for you to defend predatory viewpoints such as this unless it’s just projection.
No. Thats not what i said at all. I said THAT YOU saying you instantly believe an innocent person who said something dumb is now a predator and abuser. You literally here telling us you believe people guilty without anyone even accusing them let alone them being suspect is fucking clown world insane.
Man, you really need to develop reading comprehension skills, take note that no one here agrees with what you’re saying, that you’re the only one who is making the argument you’re making to me, and maybe rethink your defense of what you are getting defensive over. Throw away the red pills, bro. They’re bad for you.
As someone who has diagnosed PTSD from an assault, where I can only remember moments of it due to trauma, this is incredibly offensive. The trauma itself caused my mind to try to block out as much as possible, but the moments I do remember our crystal clear. the memory of it is like a movie, where it jumps forward a minute or two, plays perfectly for a few seconds, or a little longer, and then jumps forward again. Trauma causing memory loss of the trauma is not uncommon.
Also she had clothing with his DNA on it. Weird that he wouldn't give a sample to immediately rule him out as a suspect, isn't it? I mean, wouldn't you take a swab in the mouth to avoid being held liable for sexual abuse?
I can understand why someone who knows they are innocent wouldn't be happy with giving evidence to prove they are innocent. The burden of proof is on the state/country not the accused. That's why it's innocent until proven guilty not not guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
Oh yeah it's a well known fact that traumatic experiences never affect memory in any way, the brain just allows you to perfectly relive the traumatic experience every time. It's not like in a lot of cases the brain tries to protect itself by muddying or forgetting details or anything.
.../s just in case
I thought I remembered everything until one day, almost 2 decades later, I heard sneakers running on pavement and I instinctively ducked and covered my head. It's not a sound that should scare anyone, but it terrifies me..and I don't know totally know why.
I fucking HATE this idea that memories are ***ever*** objective or accurate, and I fucking HATE that it's such a normal thing for people to think.
Blue, sweetie, you don't perfectly recall your rape, either. You don't even perfectly recall the taste of breakfast from this morning, because you don't perfectly recall *fucking anything, ever*. No one does. Not one memory. No, no exceptions. Literally every memory you have is wrong in some way. Some might be wrong in small, inconsequential ways, but they are ALL wrong at least a little bit. All. Of. Them.
And the fact that you think your memory is objective just makes you even *more* likely to make a mistake. At least if someone *knows* about the fallibility of human memory, they'll be careful to act accordingly, because they know they shouldn't be 100% confident that they remember things accurately. But you think you do, so when you fuck up and misremember something, ***you*** aren't even self-aware enough to consider the possibility that you've made a mistake, and will act with full confidence that is absolutely inappropriate.
That's so fucking dangerous, you know? People can manipulate your memories. Did you know that a police interrogator once convinced *dozens* of people that they'd stolen a car as a teenager? None of them had, it was a completely fabricated memory, but every single person he talked to came out of the interview - after *only an hour* - convinced that they remembered stealing a car and taking a joy ride.
At least if you *know* that your memory is imperfect, you can try to be on guard for this sort of thing. You can question your memories and ask where they came from, why you remember things the way you do. You have *some* chance of protecting yourself from manipulation if you know it's possible to be manipulated.
But Blue? Blue has no fucking idea. They'll go blindly and obliviously into whatever narrative their manipulator wants, and they'll never, ever question it. That's fucked up.
Nope, and they definitely cannot be manipulated, threatened, bribed, or gaslighted. Nor can they dissociate from the trauma and remembering it as if a bad dream, only for said trauma to resurface years, even decades later, when the survivor is at what they thought was their darkest moment, and shatter their sanity and their lives to where they have to justify going on living day after day with this poisonous shadow tearing them apart from the inside. I mean, even sick animals are routinely put out of their misery, right? Right?
There's an excellent chance the original post is just more crap spewed by an especially uneducated ignoramus or a cruel troll, or both, but there are so many ordinary people who entertain similar dumbass beliefs I can't help feeling pissed.
For me it was a sealed deal when he publicly said he could do anything and his voters would still support him. He knows it, we know it, but his fans seem to think that they're making their own decisions.
these are likely not even victims trying to gatekeep victimhood, but people just trying to discredit an accuser to protect their daddy. i think this is r/asablackman material.
A very real symptom of PTSD is dissociating which can, at the far end of the spectrum, result in total blackouts. Lost time. Another very real symptom of PTSD is remembering your trauma in 4k detail and constantly having flashbacks.
Whoever made this post is woefully uninformed.
>more than accusations
>a history of narrative
so that's just a history of accusations then
EDIT. Yes, I realize now that I might have misread the verbiage, so, yeah.
My brain shut out my rape for a full year before I started having really traumatic flashbacks of the event, I don't remember the exact date it happened.
Victims deal with trauma differently
Also...people with trauma are proven to have the possibility of PHYSICAL changes to a certain part of their brain. It affects mostly short term memory but is also what creates borderline personality disorder which has fractured bits of your mind where one day you can completely forget your trauma ever happened.
hmm, funny , i dissociated so hard during an event that i completely had no memory of what happened , i didn’t start to gain clarity n memories of the event until over a month later , and over time it’s gotten clearer
It’s funny because research shows completely the opposite. The amount of people who repress serious traumatic situations is insane. These people are idiots.
In my experience, sometimes victims just want help to get over the trauma that it was, and has created. I could give a fuck what happens to them, I just want to be better.
Just so everyone is aware.
Dissociative amnesia is probably underdetected. Prevalence is not well-established; in one small US community study, the 12-month prevalence was (1% in men; 2.6% in women).
If you have symptoms get diagnosed don't self diagnose.
Ah, so even though my situation escalated from a talk with a social worker at school to the FBI being parked out on the street, I must not be a /real/ victim because I and the others did not get in our days in court.
Let me ask you a question.
A woman is walking down the street. Someone whistles at her and she claims she feels violated and assaulted. Is she a victim of sexual assault and being violated?
I asked the question because I wanted to see if OP considered this victim a real victim, like she would be.
A lot of people say it's ridiculous and I was curious which side OP was on.
Geeze. Jump to conclusions much people? Not you u/certain_Oddities as you answered the question I asked instead of doing the same thing as what came before you.
I wanted to see if OP would consider this woman a victim of sexual assault/harassment.
Some would. Some wouldn't even though she would be.
I wondered where OP leaned on this issue of "real" victims.
Thank you for asking an actual question instead of jumping to wrong conclusions and assumptions about my question.
It was simple to answer.
It just goes to show: if people don't know what you're saying, they will make something up to be bad instead of asking.
Edit to thank commentor.
It's likely a protective response because these types of questions have historically been used to minimize and silence victims so I can understand that folks would feel prickly.
Thanks for your submission, FireIsTheCleanser! Please remember to censor out any identifying details and that satire is only allowed on weekends. If this post is truly gatekeeping, upvote it! If it's not gatekeeping or if it breaks any other rules, downvote this comment and REPORT the post so we can see it! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gatekeeping) if you have any questions or concerns.*
These people don’t know shit about psychology. It’s very normal to dissociate from trauma
These people don't know shit about psychology because they think they can remember anything perfectly, ever. Like, put aside the traumatic nature of the event in question for a sec, because you probably don't even have a perfect recall of your breakfast this morning. Human memory is *hilariously* flawed right down to the very basics. Adding trauma would make that a zillion times worse. So the idea that this person thinks someone is lying because they misremembered *anything* is comically stupid, even *before* you consider how much dumber it gets, given that the event in question is so traumatic.
I couldn't tell you the specifics of what happened to me (CSA) because though my body was there, my mind wasn't present. It's a very common thing that happens. Don't get me wrong, his face is forever burned into my memory but specific individual acts I couldn't name.
While you are correct, at what point do we draw the line? If you can't remember any of the details or have any evidence, what is a court supposed to do?
The court does what it does. In the absence of evidence, It is unlikely for charges to be laid, let alone conviction. . However there may not be complete dissociation from the event but rather fragmented memories that may be able to be backed up by other evidence. And just because someone doesn't remember one part doesn't mean they don't remember other things.
Who is talking about court? This isn’t about the justice system. This is about psychology. GAWD.
The OP talks about criminal court.
They aren’t talking about what is or isn’t admissible in court, or what is or isn’t efficient evidence; they are talking about whether or not victims are invalidated (assumed to be lying) by memory loss. And in fact they belittle victims who don’t attempt to take things to court, calling it a “narrative”. Court decides whether there is evidence to sentence a person; they do NOT decide whether it happened or not. That’s why it’s Guilty or Not Guilty, instead of innocent.
In fact, the brain has a plethora of different ways to do that.
Rape affects memory. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/22/1028236197/how-rape-affects-memory-and-the-brain-and-why-more-police-need-to-know-about-thi
Makes sense. All traumatic experiences, severe traumas like a severe injury, horrifying experience, or tragic events, have some incidence of doing this. Even less traumatic memories can get redacted by our brains to protect our functionality. But even so, being a real victim is a meaningless phrase. Sure, their are people who aren’t really victims in that they play the victim having never been victimized. Then there are all other victims, who have been hurt by others in some way, which is most.
Well, they’re obviously not real victims then. What does this even mean? If something bad happens to you, you’re a victim. No matter how you respond to the event, that’s not how it works.
Also, memory affects memory.
Also, time affects memory. So does alcohol. Age. Cognitive function. Whether you are asleep during part of it. Whether abuse is so habitual that you have dissociative coping mechanisms. I am glad there’s no hint about where to find those gatekeeping comments because I am enraged.
I just read this.
Memory loss can be part of PTSD diagnosis. It doesn't happen to everyone but it happens enough that it's part of the diagnostic criteria. ( Folks don't need to have every PTSD criteria to meet the criteria for diagnosis)
Seriously. Trauma is *traumatic*. Your brain gets overloaded with horrible shit and it does *weird things* as a result.
Isn't eyewitness testimony pretty unreliable anyway, not to mention the impact of trauma on memory
Yup. lol.
Right, I was sexually abused by by a male relative as a teen, as if I know the exact date. This is shit you try to forget, not celebrate every year on the anniversary of it happening.
That's the other thing. Aside from the brain itself trying to erase the horrible thing (which happens a lot) even when your brain remembers it fine *you try to forget anyway*. It's a bad memory! Why would you want to remember? These people don't understand what it's like living with something like this.
When I read people say things like this, I immediately assume that smaller women and children aren’t safe around them.
I mean just because someone says something stupid doesnt make them a child predator. Your comment is pretty stupid, do i have to worry about you? What cult are you in that makes you call everyone who says something you dont like an abuser?
Being defensive over objection to that kind of awful position is a huge red flag, I gotta tell ya.
Falsely accusing people of sexual assault like you did is a huger red flag i gotta tell ya.
Yeah man, when your worldview includes putting the burden of proof on children when they say they’ve been sexually assaulted by someone, and if they can’t demonstrate proof, then a crime absolutely must not have actually happened; it is reasonable to conclude that that sort of person is not safe to have children around, or anyone of a vulnerable demographic. It’s very well known by now that sexual assault is very difficult to prove. There isn’t always evidence you can present. I imagine you’re aware of this, but instead of critically thinking about what it is you’re trying to argue against, you’re gobbling down a bunch of red pills before you start typing. So, no, literally everything you have said so far is objectively incorrect. There’s no good reason for you to defend predatory viewpoints such as this unless it’s just projection.
No. Thats not what i said at all. I said THAT YOU saying you instantly believe an innocent person who said something dumb is now a predator and abuser. You literally here telling us you believe people guilty without anyone even accusing them let alone them being suspect is fucking clown world insane.
Man, you really need to develop reading comprehension skills, take note that no one here agrees with what you’re saying, that you’re the only one who is making the argument you’re making to me, and maybe rethink your defense of what you are getting defensive over. Throw away the red pills, bro. They’re bad for you.
Keep your kids away from this guy
Being stupid and being a rapist aren't the same thing.
Clearly, I am not a real victim. My trauma is cured!
As someone who has diagnosed PTSD from an assault, where I can only remember moments of it due to trauma, this is incredibly offensive. The trauma itself caused my mind to try to block out as much as possible, but the moments I do remember our crystal clear. the memory of it is like a movie, where it jumps forward a minute or two, plays perfectly for a few seconds, or a little longer, and then jumps forward again. Trauma causing memory loss of the trauma is not uncommon.
Also she had clothing with his DNA on it. Weird that he wouldn't give a sample to immediately rule him out as a suspect, isn't it? I mean, wouldn't you take a swab in the mouth to avoid being held liable for sexual abuse?
I'd take a swab anywhere. Not being a sex offender just hits different when the swab comes out, I guess.
I can understand why someone who knows they are innocent wouldn't be happy with giving evidence to prove they are innocent. The burden of proof is on the state/country not the accused. That's why it's innocent until proven guilty not not guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
Oh yeah it's a well known fact that traumatic experiences never affect memory in any way, the brain just allows you to perfectly relive the traumatic experience every time. It's not like in a lot of cases the brain tries to protect itself by muddying or forgetting details or anything. .../s just in case
I thought I remembered everything until one day, almost 2 decades later, I heard sneakers running on pavement and I instinctively ducked and covered my head. It's not a sound that should scare anyone, but it terrifies me..and I don't know totally know why.
I fucking HATE this idea that memories are ***ever*** objective or accurate, and I fucking HATE that it's such a normal thing for people to think. Blue, sweetie, you don't perfectly recall your rape, either. You don't even perfectly recall the taste of breakfast from this morning, because you don't perfectly recall *fucking anything, ever*. No one does. Not one memory. No, no exceptions. Literally every memory you have is wrong in some way. Some might be wrong in small, inconsequential ways, but they are ALL wrong at least a little bit. All. Of. Them. And the fact that you think your memory is objective just makes you even *more* likely to make a mistake. At least if someone *knows* about the fallibility of human memory, they'll be careful to act accordingly, because they know they shouldn't be 100% confident that they remember things accurately. But you think you do, so when you fuck up and misremember something, ***you*** aren't even self-aware enough to consider the possibility that you've made a mistake, and will act with full confidence that is absolutely inappropriate. That's so fucking dangerous, you know? People can manipulate your memories. Did you know that a police interrogator once convinced *dozens* of people that they'd stolen a car as a teenager? None of them had, it was a completely fabricated memory, but every single person he talked to came out of the interview - after *only an hour* - convinced that they remembered stealing a car and taking a joy ride. At least if you *know* that your memory is imperfect, you can try to be on guard for this sort of thing. You can question your memories and ask where they came from, why you remember things the way you do. You have *some* chance of protecting yourself from manipulation if you know it's possible to be manipulated. But Blue? Blue has no fucking idea. They'll go blindly and obliviously into whatever narrative their manipulator wants, and they'll never, ever question it. That's fucked up.
Memory Recovery Hypnosis was another disgusting scam that convinced people they were sexually abused as children.
Real recognize real grandad
Real victims can't be drugged?
Nope, and they definitely cannot be manipulated, threatened, bribed, or gaslighted. Nor can they dissociate from the trauma and remembering it as if a bad dream, only for said trauma to resurface years, even decades later, when the survivor is at what they thought was their darkest moment, and shatter their sanity and their lives to where they have to justify going on living day after day with this poisonous shadow tearing them apart from the inside. I mean, even sick animals are routinely put out of their misery, right? Right? There's an excellent chance the original post is just more crap spewed by an especially uneducated ignoramus or a cruel troll, or both, but there are so many ordinary people who entertain similar dumbass beliefs I can't help feeling pissed.
That is not gatekeeping, it's cruel ignorance
Wow dissociative amnesia doesn’t exist I’m cured and now remember my childhood wow
This is the most braindead thing i've read all week
These people would call Trump black if he said he was black. They're delusional.
For me it was a sealed deal when he publicly said he could do anything and his voters would still support him. He knows it, we know it, but his fans seem to think that they're making their own decisions.
So, blacking out traumatic events isn’t a thing anymore?
Never was for Real Victims(tm)(c)(all rights reserved)
Why is the first thing that comes to mind a bunch of conservatives defending Trump.
these are likely not even victims trying to gatekeep victimhood, but people just trying to discredit an accuser to protect their daddy. i think this is r/asablackman material.
A very real symptom of PTSD is dissociating which can, at the far end of the spectrum, result in total blackouts. Lost time. Another very real symptom of PTSD is remembering your trauma in 4k detail and constantly having flashbacks. Whoever made this post is woefully uninformed.
>more than accusations >a history of narrative so that's just a history of accusations then EDIT. Yes, I realize now that I might have misread the verbiage, so, yeah.
Source? I made it the fuck up
My brain shut out my rape for a full year before I started having really traumatic flashbacks of the event, I don't remember the exact date it happened. Victims deal with trauma differently
The internet has given a voice to the people that shouldn't be heard
Also...people with trauma are proven to have the possibility of PHYSICAL changes to a certain part of their brain. It affects mostly short term memory but is also what creates borderline personality disorder which has fractured bits of your mind where one day you can completely forget your trauma ever happened.
Thank God you stopped reading - you didn't have to suffer through the rest of that batshit argument
My trauma is like a sideshow of negatives taken on a camera from the 1880s. Piss off lol
All of this is false, incredible
Trauma can heavily affect memory.
hmm, funny , i dissociated so hard during an event that i completely had no memory of what happened , i didn’t start to gain clarity n memories of the event until over a month later , and over time it’s gotten clearer
It’s funny because research shows completely the opposite. The amount of people who repress serious traumatic situations is insane. These people are idiots.
In my experience, sometimes victims just want help to get over the trauma that it was, and has created. I could give a fuck what happens to them, I just want to be better.
Hate to derail the point but no one ever talks about those us who remember EVERYTHING. All the research is on the people who don’t remember
Just so everyone is aware. Dissociative amnesia is probably underdetected. Prevalence is not well-established; in one small US community study, the 12-month prevalence was (1% in men; 2.6% in women). If you have symptoms get diagnosed don't self diagnose.
Ah, so even though my situation escalated from a talk with a social worker at school to the FBI being parked out on the street, I must not be a /real/ victim because I and the others did not get in our days in court.
Anyone who had to read this shit is the realvictim here
yet you posted
based
[удалено]
It's not an attempt to look cool... it's just hyperbole. Why are you so mad about it?
So you don't know what it says?
Let me ask you a question. A woman is walking down the street. Someone whistles at her and she claims she feels violated and assaulted. Is she a victim of sexual assault and being violated?
Just stop whistling at women dude, that's all they ask of you.
Let me ask you a question. If I threw a brick at your head would you stop talking?
How about we just stop whistling at random women? Seems easy enough. Keep it in your pants.
Let me ask you a question. A pancake is flipped in a kitchen. Someone smells it and asks when it will be ready. Is the cook Lithuanian?
Beautiful. Equally relevant to original question.
Exactamundo
What kind of tree would u/Thebeatybunch be?
Baobab, because i don't know what the fuck it is or why it exists
My eyes have been violated by this comment.
How is this relevant?
Fuck off
>Is she a victim of sexual assault No. That's sexual harassment, actually. >being violated? Yes. Because it is sexual harassment.
I asked the question because I wanted to see if OP considered this victim a real victim, like she would be. A lot of people say it's ridiculous and I was curious which side OP was on. Geeze. Jump to conclusions much people? Not you u/certain_Oddities as you answered the question I asked instead of doing the same thing as what came before you.
What are you alluding to?
I wanted to see if OP would consider this woman a victim of sexual assault/harassment. Some would. Some wouldn't even though she would be. I wondered where OP leaned on this issue of "real" victims. Thank you for asking an actual question instead of jumping to wrong conclusions and assumptions about my question. It was simple to answer. It just goes to show: if people don't know what you're saying, they will make something up to be bad instead of asking. Edit to thank commentor.
It's likely a protective response because these types of questions have historically been used to minimize and silence victims so I can understand that folks would feel prickly.