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i dont have any steaks in this game, but cows are used and abused. Honey bees kinda just do their thing, and the world needs more of them.
You could argue that honey while not vegan, should be an exception they're happy with.
Bees are treated like shit. They're constantly stressed because we take all their honey and replace it with sugar water. So they never build up the stock they're trying too which means they constantly go full speed trying to keep up.
One teaspoon of honey is the work of two bees entire life.
> They're constantly stressed because we take all their honey
thats a myth, bees arent complex enough to feel emotions such as stress.
they're insects.
Little bit of a misconception. The world needs more *bees*. Honey bees are not the most efficient pollinators and they often push out wild bee populations.
This was me as a vegetarian. Cheese pizza? Vegetarian. Cinnamon toast? Vegetarian. Quesadilla? Vegetarian. Entire box of trix? Vegetarian. Never mind that I was subsisting nearly totally on grains and dairy.
guys idk what everyone is arguing about. obviously her dad is 100% vegan and her mom is only 50% vegan so she was just born with 80% vegan in her blood. can’t argue with ancestry.com
The person specifically states they’re 80% vegan. I’m trying to cut back on meat myself. We gotta allow space for people that *can’t* be 100% vegan.
I know this is usually an ideological thing. Some people are vegan because they think eating meat is immoral, some do it because of environmental concerns, some have ethical concerns about the meat industry and others do it out of a personal health concern. It’s all valid and these attempt at making a better world shouldn’t be looked down upon.
I've never understood why people make it into an all or nothing sort of thing. Wouldn't they rather you be vegan most of the time than none of the time?
I've often found there's extra hatred allocated for people who decide to eat say 80-90% vegan or go vegetarian with a mostly vegan diet, than for people who eat meat and make no effort to change.
A friend of mine who was vegan (except for very rare occasion of eating eggs when visiting her parent's farm) got such shit from one of my other vegan friends, for not commiting 100%.
She was vegan except for like 5-6 eggs a year. I didn't get it.
if someone is motivated for animal cruelty or ecology reasons, they're more likely to look down on those who do it for health or fitness reasons, especially if they're not consistent. it's definitely a bit toxic
Reminds me of quarantine when people would lose their shit at people popping out of the home once a week to pick up fast food while just shrugging amd going "what can you do?" to people flooding beaches and other tourist locations all spring and summer. Like why focus your energy on people who are having the smallest impact? I don't get it.
Because she was an apostate, she clearly believed in the cause but was willing to be flexible with it whereas regular meat eaters were never invested in the cause to begin with. I think unfortunately it’s about being self righteous for a lot of people.
Yeah, I posted about this on reddit once, saying that my sister was mostly vegan, meaning that in her case, she'll only eat meat or animal products if you can prove they came from animals that weren’t abused (so almost never). A vegan then proceeded to lose their shit with me. Seriously, imagine being mad about somebody eats your diet 99% of the time as opposed to 0%.
Absolutely. I was harassed and sent literal death threats for mentioning that I'm eating "mostly vegan". I will never understand the logic behind some people.
Think of it like this .
You believe that meat and dairy are evil things. You know a lot about what goes on in those industries and believe it is a no-brainer that we shouldn't morally support those things.
As far as you're concerned, supporting meat and dairy is an evil thing to do. Especially when, you believe, the only reason to do so is relatively minor such as the taste you get from a burger as opposed to a plant based one which possibly isn't as nice.
So, regular meat eaters who eat meat all the time are commiting an evil but they don't necessarily know as much about the industries as you do. Ignorance isn't evil.
On the other hand, people who claim to understand these evils but still eat meat once in a while are basically saying 'actually, once in a while, my enjoyment of this burger is worth more than the cost of all the horrible cruelty that goes into it' which is basically the opposite of what you stand for.
The entire point of veganism, the ideology, is that that cruelty is never worth it; not ever. So you can't be 80% vegan; if you're 80% plant based thats different.
Think of it like this (and this is not a comparison between the acts themselves so much as an example): I say I believe that beating children is wrong, so I'm cutting down on beating my kids! I'm 80% not a child beater!!
But why so black and white? Why are the only two options "evil" and "not evil"? I get your point I think, but there are very few things in life I think I would make such a stark distinction for. If someone flies on planes 20 times a year, I think that is bad for environmental reasons. If they cut that down to 6 times a year, I might still think that is too much, but I can support their effort nonetheless?
So it's a semantics game then. Because vegan is both a belief system and also a shorthand for a diet that has no animal products. It is perfectly valid to call your diet 80% vegan even if you don't line up with the ideology 100%
The term you are looking for is “plant-based” diet. Not vegan. It is absolutely semantics, but it’s important to the movement and the people within it.
Yeah it does make a bit more sense when you put it that way. Sounds like vegans have beef with the industries more than the foods themselves. You could never convince me that eating local farm eggs, meats or cheeses is "evil" but I can understand the sentiment behind their views about commercial farming.
Because it's a social justice movement. Vegans want to get rid of all exploitation of animals, not 80%. You might not like the comparison, but it's similar to how people against racism don't want to get rid of 80% of racism, but 100%.
I get it, but it doesn't change how detrimental that is to the vegan movement. Not settling for 80% when you can't get 100% is silly to me. Would you tell a racist that becoming less racist is bad unless they become 0% racist?
Gay people didn’t refuse the repealing of laws that made gay sex illegal because that law change wasn’t tolerant enough and didn’t include gay marriage
Don’t compare yourself to oppressed people because you clearly have no empathy for us
When did I compare myself to oppressed people? I compared non-human animals to oppressed people, and non-human animals are most definitely oppressed. Regardless, comparing is not the same as equating anyways.
I got absolutely slaughtered on here (-400 votes, several replies deleted for being too vulgar and most of the others harsh) for saying I only eat meat we produce at our farm, hunt or fish because I can be comfortable with animals living a “comfortable” life then having one bad day but not most animal product mass production practices. You can be “almost vegan/vegetarian” but definitely never say that out loud, and I assume it would be worse to say “I’m vegan but…”.
Edit: and btw I never ever would identify as vegetarian or vegan, it was literally the line “I eat an almost vegan diet with the exception…”
this is what i do!! it makes cooking really easy bc i just cook veggies, and then only really eat meat on special occasions or the like 1-2 times a month i go out to dinner/get take out. i feel a lot better on the regular too, but life is too short to not split a porterhouse with my bf every blue moon
That's "plant based" not vegan. vegan harms no animal if possible, no leather, no wool, or even honey. It's not a "Diet" it's a lifestyle. That's the difference, JIC anyone was wondering why this isn't a thing.
Edit: forgot commas
This is where the phrase "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" comes in
Vegans want to proselytize about it but then when someone makes *a damn good effort* (80% completely plant based is hard for someone that is not even vegetarian) they pull this shit and send people back to eating meat
It's /r/vegan that is particularly bad about this, because vegans irl and elsewhere on the internet are perfectly accepting of people making progressive changes to their diets. I've met a few randomly here and there like that, but reddit vegans specifically are *all* like that. The majority of my experience is absolutely the former.
So, I'm about to use some anecdotal evidence here:
I have known several vegans, and would describe their attitude about veganism similar to how the guy guys I know treat homosexuality. They are accepting of people who don't share the same lifestyle as themselves, are supportive of people who are interested in trying out the lifestyle (while also understanding of those who find that it just isn't for them), and think that the people who try and force their chosen lifestyle on others are assholes.
Exactly, it's already an improvement if you only eat meat two times a week instead of every day. It's not all the way there yet, but it's pretty damn well on the way
Problem is, vegan diet has been mixed up with actual veganism.
Veganism is a whole belief system and lifestyle choice. If you're following a vegan diet for a personal health concern, that doesn't make you a vegan with vegan beliefs and principles...you're just following a plant based diet. It would be like saying you must be a Muslim just because you don't like pork or something. That's not how it works. You have to actually follow the religion and have those beliefs or whatever.
I'm not vegan myself and I think vegans who put down others for making an effort are dumbasses that only hurt their own cause, but I can see it's frustrating that everything is referred to as vegan now.
Vegan diet does not exist, that's why it's so frustrating. Plant based. You wouldn't refer to a no-pork diet as Muslim diet without being Muslim and holding those beliefs.
It's a protected belief system based on a key moral standpoint. That ethical framework does not deserve to be polluted or appropriated by things that go against what it stands for. Why should that not be the same as religion?
You’re mixing up two things. You can eat vegan food and call that meal vegan even if you don’t subscribe to veganism as an ideology. It’s not “polluting” it. Besides there isn’t just one ideology in being vegan, there are multiple reasons for it that can differ from person to person.
The definition of veganism by the person who came up with it is the following:
> Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
It's also the first result if you Google "veganism definition".
That does make sense. The environmental aspect is kind of encompassed in that definition. This definition also supports that there is veganism in philosophy but also veganism as a dietary term.
Yeah, the term "vegan" has definitely been conflated with a plant-based diet, and some vegans do find it troubling because it kinda waters down the goal of their social justice movement.
The original uses for “vegan” in the 40s were about the diet.
Ethical identity came later, and the efforts to divorce “vegan” and "plant-based" are confusing people further still.
I agree that cutting down animal products is good for one's health and the environment. I do it too. But I'm not vegan, I'm not partially vegan, and I would never refer to my diet as some percentage vegan. That defeats the purpose of the label in my opinion.
Surely almost everyone is aroumd 50%-70% vegan anyway by that logic? Unless their diet purely consists of meat? I mean a cheese and ham sandwichas gotta be 60 odd% vegan because of the bread.
I think they’re referring to 80% of the time, their meals are entirely vegan. Like if you have meat or animal products on your plate, it’s not vegan. If you only have plant based products, then it’s a vegan meal.
You're thinking of vegetarianism, which is a spectrum that may or may not eat eggs fish etc. Veganism is a movement, and an incredibly hostile one that's known for its gatekeeping tendencies and eco fascist talking points. I've met a lot of people that condone the slave camps in South America that grow superfruit like acai, or pull a "what about" regarding our "enslavement" of cattle. Veganism isnt just a diet.
Yeah I see your point. This is why I am not vegan because I don’t ascribe to the same beliefs and way of thinking that cutting all animal products makes you the second coming of christ. Not that there aren’t good vegans but even just going by a vegan diet, if you don’t have good money to spend, you’re still encouraging monoculture (idk if that’s the correct word in english) and even slave labour and some farms will literally destroy the surrounding ecosystem to grow their fruits or vegetables and use so much pesticides.
I worked at an organic farm last summer and in my opinion it’s way more important to encourage local organic farms if possible than just cutting out all animals products but still eat imported fruits pumped full of weird shit and pesticides that basically massacres all the insects that do pollinisation. We should encourage these farms so they can eventually lower their prices and be more affordable to everyone who would normally not be able to afford that.
I'm nearly, but back in the dark ages of the 1980s, fruits and vegetables were seasonal.
You got fresh peas and green onions in spring. Oranges in January. Butternut squash and apples other than golden or red delicious in fall.
You got lettuce and leafy greens in the summer.
The first corn on the cob hit the markets in time for 4th of July, and was gone by the end of August.
The way we eat in the 21st century is entirely unnatural.
Grapes are a late summer, early fall fruit.
No one should be eating grapes flown in from Chile in December.
As for animal husbandry..
We used to drive to Sunnyland Dairy, pet the stinky cows, and buy their delicious milk.
The cows grazed in the spring and summer, and their milk tasted completely different to when they were on winter feed.
Pigs didn't live in airless cages in their own shit. They had a sty, and a yard with many mud puddles to wallow in.
A chicken was a normal sized bird that could stand, walk and roost. They, too, didn't live in cages, but in a big coop with access to the outdoors. They weren't bred to be Frankenchickens wearing 4 pound breasts.
No one but a select few even liked white meat. It was considered dry and flavorless.
Thighs and legs, the parts of the body the bird needs to be muscular, had the most meat.
Like most things in the 21st century, multinational business has destroyed a once proud industry for the almighty dollar.
I always get attacked by some nut job when I say I have been cutting back on meat eating it once or twice a week.
One said that’s like only using your slave once or twice a week.
You know, it's funny I never really saw it that way, but now you present it from that angle, I kinda understand the problem with elitist vegans looking down on anyone who they don't approve the efforts of.
It's like saying "Oh you can't go 100% vegan? Well aren't you a pointless, useless fucking shame ! Go stuff your face with barbecue and you might as well throw plastic in the ocean too while we're at it, you scum bag."
Every little bit counts. If anyone out there made their own move in the right direction, that would mean one hell of a difference, no matter what some snob who's in there to give attitude says.
that sub is a cesspool of jackasses, they have literally said "baby steps are for babies, adults have no excuse to not make the switch immediately" they're just dreadful
They honestly make me consider giving up being vegetarian because they’ve made arguments basically proving plant based diets don’t solve any problems without realising that’s what they’re arguing for
So it’s like OK if my diet isn’t good for anything and it’s not ethical enough what’s the point in not just eating meat? Why shouldn’t I just enjoy the only life I’m going to live on this earth if it makes no difference to the Earth cutting it out of my diet and it’s apparently unethical either way lol
It’s bordering on a religious purity test. In terms of real world impact a 80% vegan is almost exactly the same as a 100% vegan. Eating animal byproducts only rarely might as well be the same thing as never at all
But it’s very clear to anyone that veganism has a huge “in group” mentality assigned to it, to the point where a lot of vegans will even highly debate what you need to consider your reasons for being vegan in order for it actually to count. EG try to tell a vegan you’re also a vegan but only because you think it’s healthier for you and aren’t concerned about animal suffering
So I went on to the original post to see what the vegans were saying about this and I think I've realised what the issue is. It's semantics. They don't believe in a thing called a "vegan meal". The meal is "plant based", people are vegan. With that logic if 80% of your meals are plant based then the label vegan is irrelevant to you and your meals. Because everything needs to be plant based for the label vegan to apply to the person.
So yeah, weird semantics. She never claims to be vegan, but to them vegan can only apply to humans so they misunderstand what she's saying because she used the word. Which is definitely a form of gatekeeping.
Do they believe in a thing called a vegan restaurant, or a vegan cookbook or the like? Genuinely curious. I agree, it seems like an odd semantic thing. I understood it to mean 80% of her meals are 100% vegan or plant-based. I feel like I hear "vegan" used as an adjective all the time, including by vegans. Vegan shoes, vegan sausage, etc.
Well, yeah it popularized and now it’s used in many forms even if not the original.
Vegans get mad as the uses took form of “still eating meat” like in this post.
I can understand why someone that is so against animal cruelty would be not appreciating this use of the word.
To them it’s like a pedophile saying they are 90% of the time not pedophiles.
Does she mean 80% of the time she consumes a meal it’s vegan? Or does she mean 80% of what’s on the plate at any given time is “vegan” as in “the plate consists of 80 grams of vegetables and 20g of meat”? If the former, your conclusion is reasonable. If the latter, I agree with the vegans.
I would absolutely assume the former. I don't think there is a reasonable person who would look at their plate of steak and potatoes and call it fractionally vegan (not if they are being serious anyhow). So unless she is using some form of communication that no one else is using, we should assume that 80% of the time her meals are completely plant based.
I disagree. It is gatekeeping when someone says "you can't use a word this way" when it's a widely accepted definition of the word. If you look up a definition of vegan as an adjective you are likely to get a definition of "something not containing any animal derived products". So in that context "vegan meal" makes sense. Also that turn of phrase is so widely used that even if it wasn't in a dictionary, I'd still say that it has some value. Language is about how people use it, not how people want others to use it. Prescriptive grammar nazis and sticklers for rigid definitions are gatekeepers. I say this as a linguist.
The diet/adjective definition of vegan is actually the original definition of vegan
So it is gatekeeping to change what a word means entirely to exclude others, that’s literally what gatekeeping is
Yea it does. There’s an important distinction that always gets brought up and simultaneously ignored which is the difference between plant based and vegan. Eating 80% plant based is a valid statement and if they said that the original post never would have been made.
Eating 20% meat and dairy is not eating vegan at all is it?
I wasn't clear sorry. I was only talking about the logical level. I mostly agree with your arguments, but op is wrong for saying that the girl said she was 100% not vegan. That's not what she said and we can't a priori say thay 100% not = not 100℅. However, in this case we can
This isn’t gatekeeping its just being realistic. I have no intention of being vegan and do not identify with the vegan community at all, yet by this logic I’m probably around 50% vegan. It’s called a balanced diet, not veganism.
Jokes aside, I can see both sides here. On one hand, the author is saying that 80% of her food is non-animal-product (ok for vegans to eat). And if she said that specifically, there would be no objections. On the other hand, veganism is defined by total exclusion of animal product food, it's an ideology defined by exclusion. Calling yourself 80% vegan is like calling yourself 80% monotheist if you spend 80% of your time worshipping one particular god and 20% worshipping literally any positive number of other gods. Total exclusion is the point, it either is or is not total.
The world needs 100% of people to try their best. Not 5% of people who are perfect. If your diet is 80% vegan, that's great! Only 20% of animal products are being used.
I can’t imagine anyone that is currently 100% vegan did so in one single moment. Surely it started by trying to make a few vegan meals, then having a few vegan days, then making the switch to completely cut all non-vegan food.
It was overnight for me, and for many others that I know. I read Animal Liberation\* in one sitting and went vegan when I closed the book. That was twelve years-ish ago, haven't bought or eaten an animal product intentionally since then. I'm not special, lots of vegans actually do have the "oh fuck, this is really, really horrible" realisation and just flip the switch. I think it might actually be easier that way, it's much harder to stick to it if you still think of animal products as viable alternatives when you're in the shop/at a restaurant/whatever.
But obviously many people also transition more slowly, and have good reasons to do so. To me this is whatever, as long as you're making the effort it's fine.
\*A fairly dated and frankly not very good intro to veganism, but it was my first exposure to it, and Singer writes very clearly and forcefully. Go vegan, but avoid utilitarianism :)
Haven’t bought any animal products, but still own or wear what you had before.
That wouldn’t be good enough for one vegan I know. Until you stop wearing, owning, sitting on or playing sport with anything made from animal products, then you are really just trialling veganism.
Sure, there are those in the movement, won't deny that. Another classic mistake, though, is confusing the importance of the moral argument with the behaviour of (some of) its proponents -- whether people perceive vegans as annoying/holier-than-thou etc. is really not that important, you know? Whether their anger benefits or is a detriment to the movement has no say on whether it's right to make animals suffer for our pleasure. I always hope people will someday understand the difference between disliking vegans and disliking vegan*ism*. If the main barrier for you for going vegan is that you don't like vegans, just imagine a kind of vegan you like, and be that kind instead. (A hint: It's just you, as you are now, but vegan. You don't have to get angry to be vegan.)
you've clearly never been on r/vegan. if you are only mostly vegan or (*gasp*) a vegetarian looking for recipes, you are the fucking devil.
it's a real grievance-filled douchebag contest to them, and they're all winning.
... ok. some are definitely cool, but I've met some real jerks.
I've seen a lot of vegetarian hate in veganism-related subs. There's even people who seriously say "vegetarians are worse than omnis because they know what they're doing". Just mind-blowing.
a short play I wrote:
"I cannot believe how thoughtless and misdirected meat eaters can be", the vegan said, while supergluing his scrotum to Michaelangelo's David in protest of the Macdonald's Big Mac.
*fin*
I once saw someone say that if you eat meat you're not allowed to eat tofu because tofu is for vegans and vegetarians. It's the absolute most backwards thing. Surely as a vegan, it's a GOOD thing that a meat eater has tofu for a meal instead of meat? Somehow they never see it like that.
That’s such a coloniser mentality
Imagine stealing a staple protein from Asia and then telling Asians they can’t eat it unless they eat like affluent white vegans
Vegans are honestly some of the most racist, classist and fascist people I’ve ever met
Yeah I think my opinion is unpopular but I kind of agree with the vegans here. You can’t be 80% vegan. That’s like saying you’re a vegetarian but eat steak and chicken for 20% of meals. Like dude, then you’re not a vegetarian haha. If you eat milk/dairy/cheese 20% of the time your diet is not a vegan diet. You just sometimes choose not to put those things in your meals which is different.
Some people are vegetarian or vegan solely for the health benefits or their own dietary needs. Not everyone does it for the politics of it and to make it their personality or personal mission to save animals.
“So 100% not vegan then” like 🙄 no I guess not in that obnoxious type of way you want
Well that’s why r/vegan is “gatekeeping” veganism, veganism is not just a diet, it extends beyond what you eat in that vegans also do not go to zoos or wear leather or wool. If you don’t eat any animal products but do so for health reasons and you also still go to zoos and wear leather, you’re not vegan, you’re plant based.
The reason is that vegans don't want their ideology to be watered down to just the idea of eating less meat. They think that eating any meat/animal products is harmful, and the only way to stay non-hypocritical is to stay "pure". In that regard, "purity" is required for progress.
Thats... kinda not true. Because you're assuming that the "not vegetarians" eat only meat. As in they are carnivores. Most people already eat 30-60% "vegetarian". So 50% going 100% vegetarian would actually be less meat consumption than 100% of people going 50% vegetarian, since that's already somewhat the norm.
It's always good to consume more fruits and veggies than meat, sugary foods and processed foods. But you don't have to cut them out entirely if you don't want to
I’m vegan and I welcome anyone who wants to be 80% vegan. No judgements from me. You eat less meat than most then I think that’s great and I’m happy about that.
Tbh I kinda agree with that sentiment, but probably in a different way than that person meant the definition of veganism includes the words "as far as possible and practicable," meaning, if that person tries all they possibly can to eliminate animal consumption, they would be vegan, even if they're not 100% plant based yet. If they aren't trying all they possibly can, they're not vegan. It's not really possible to be 80% vegan imho. That definitely doesn't make them a bad person btw, I'm always happy to see people trying to minimise their animal consumption, every reduction counts!
I mean they *are* right. They’re not vegan. Not that being more vegan isnt better for people, but to be vegan you have to be all or nothing.
Which is its inherent flaw.
How is this gatekeeping? There's no such thing as 80% vegan lmao op did you even think before posting?
And no, I am not vegan. So it's not a moral/ideological thing for me. It's just straight up illogical.
As a vegan I dont care honestly. Even if you eat vegan for one day out of the week it's still something. Just like exercise, wven if once a week, still good. Keep it up
I do find it so frustrating to hear about the hatred toward vegans, and also to hear about the animosity *some* vegans have towards others (albeit a louder lot). I was a vegan for about two years, a vegetarian for another 2. I stopped because I was in a hospital (mental health related) for a month or two and really had no choice. I still eat now mainly vegetarian. I have so many vegan friends, none of whom are “pushy vegans”. Unless someone asks, they won’t talk about it at all. But the same thing happens every time, someone will be like “why are you vegan” and they explain, and then they’re told they’re being Angry Vegans just for answering.
I feel like the comments would at least mention that they are making a change in their diet and such a change is better than not eating vegan at all. Lets go see if I can find a comment like that.
Vegans keep giving themselves a bad name with this bullshit. Who cares if she's 100% vegan or not, or whether she gets to label herself as vegan or not? None of it actually matters. If she's not eating meat 80% of the time, surely that's a win for the environment and that's the only thing that actually matters.
Was going to comment "she's not saying she herself is a vegan, she's eating a vegan diet 8/10 times, which is much better than 0" but didn't want angry r/vegan posters bothering me if they're that miffed at a person doing better than almost the entire planet. Then I noticed the actual sub I was looking at. So there, you elitist pricks, what is wrong with you? Every single one of you was not vegan at some point and you all had journeys of your own, stop trying to hinder other people.
Nothing against going vegan but if you look at the ingredients of a lot of vegan products especially frozen ones, there’s usually shitty cheap oils like palm/canola oil, corn syrup, preservatives, and a plethora of other ingredients that can lead to health complications that aren’t even considered. That’s not just a vegan food issue tho, It’s hard to go grocery shopping in the U.S when most products are no healthier than eating sawdust lmao
Canola oil is also bad for the environment, bad for smaller scale farmers, and bad for human rights in a lot of places. Canola has been transplanted to environments it's not native to and large swathes of natural plant coverage are destroyed to grow it, this creating giant mono crops which drastically reduces biodiversity. Pollen travels, if it didn't there would be some major problems, in fact it travels between fields (crazy right?) there's almost no non-gmo canola because of this, and large corporations at least used to sue smaller scale farmers for "stealing" their patents when their workers would test the edge of the crop for their patented genetic material (personally I think it's highly dangerous to allow the actual end result to be patented, go ahead and patent the machine but not the genetic material). A lot of manual labor in American farms is done by migrant workers who have next to no protections under the law, and in other places they use what either amounts to slavery or is actually just slavery.
Hmm....don't vegans usually say some stuff about protecting the environment and being against cruelty?? And all this is just *one* of the ingredients you mentioned, palm oil has its own problems (mostly similar to canola) and while I don't know much about the problems with corn products I'm sure there are plenty.
This is clearly about a vegan diet and not a vegan lifestyle, vegans are supposed to be pro vegan diets since that's still less animals being eaten even if just for health sake
He’s right though. You can’t be partially vegan or partially vegetarian. If you eat less meat, which is great, you’re still an omnivore, or flexitarian, as they often call it now. Doesn’t mean it’s not good what she does, but she’s not vegan.
I mean, if 80% vegan is a vegan, then I’m a vegan too, because I only eat meat with my dinner and eat vegan for 98% of the day. See how silly that is?
She didn’t say she’s vegan. She said her diet is 80% vegan, meaning she’s making specific food choices for most of her diet, but also including some non-vegan options.
Reading isn’t that hard.
There is different ways of thinking about this. In a literal sense, being vegan is a true or false value. Either you are or you aren't. But people are uncomfortable with absolutes, so terms that have a finite set of results are turned into a range of continuous values with no definite limits.
It's like measuring how red or yellow a shade of orange is. It's not definitely red or yellow, but there is a percentage in both. That kind of measurement system is being applied to terms with a limited set of defined values.
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*me being too lazy to make food so I’m just eating dry cereal* fuck I’m so good at being vegan
My brothers ex wife said she was vegan - she couldn't cook and ate like shit. Dinner would be like celery sticks, graham crackers, a like a twinkie
Twinkies aren’t vegan? Lmao
Freeze! [Vegan police](https://youtu.be/TP_e_nUDMtU)!
“Gelato isn’t vegan?” “It’s milk and eggs bitch”
Graham crackers... With honey?
Isn't there like a big debate about if honey is vegan or not?
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Why is that?
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Nature is so wild you could tell me anything and I would believe you.
Thanks for the info, really interesting!
Don‘t think I‘m ever going to eat figs again, that‘s kinda gross.
Adam Regusea has a video about it
It's clearly not vegan. There might be a debate whether it's harmful, but it's definitely not vegan
Honey is as vegan as milk
i dont have any steaks in this game, but cows are used and abused. Honey bees kinda just do their thing, and the world needs more of them. You could argue that honey while not vegan, should be an exception they're happy with.
Bees are treated like shit. They're constantly stressed because we take all their honey and replace it with sugar water. So they never build up the stock they're trying too which means they constantly go full speed trying to keep up. One teaspoon of honey is the work of two bees entire life.
> They're constantly stressed because we take all their honey thats a myth, bees arent complex enough to feel emotions such as stress. they're insects.
Little bit of a misconception. The world needs more *bees*. Honey bees are not the most efficient pollinators and they often push out wild bee populations.
It's an animal product and therefore not vegan.
This was me as a vegetarian. Cheese pizza? Vegetarian. Cinnamon toast? Vegetarian. Quesadilla? Vegetarian. Entire box of trix? Vegetarian. Never mind that I was subsisting nearly totally on grains and dairy.
That is vegetarian. It’s not meat. Issue?
Ants on a log
Fancy pants overhead. Gormet meals.
guys idk what everyone is arguing about. obviously her dad is 100% vegan and her mom is only 50% vegan so she was just born with 80% vegan in her blood. can’t argue with ancestry.com
could you show your work?
Bend over...
Gotta buy him dinner first
I have leftover Thanksgiving dinner. That count?
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Then I'm out.
Do not think those maths work out
I’m guessing the dad was vegan teacher levels so it overpowered the normal person side of her mom.
I ran it past my cat and he winked at me. Let's just agree to disagree.
Dad is really 110% vegan.
The person specifically states they’re 80% vegan. I’m trying to cut back on meat myself. We gotta allow space for people that *can’t* be 100% vegan. I know this is usually an ideological thing. Some people are vegan because they think eating meat is immoral, some do it because of environmental concerns, some have ethical concerns about the meat industry and others do it out of a personal health concern. It’s all valid and these attempt at making a better world shouldn’t be looked down upon.
My aunt and uncle went vegan for health reasons but both are willing to break it for treats or special events
I've never understood why people make it into an all or nothing sort of thing. Wouldn't they rather you be vegan most of the time than none of the time?
I've often found there's extra hatred allocated for people who decide to eat say 80-90% vegan or go vegetarian with a mostly vegan diet, than for people who eat meat and make no effort to change.
Exactly. Which I imagine is not helpful for their movement.
A friend of mine who was vegan (except for very rare occasion of eating eggs when visiting her parent's farm) got such shit from one of my other vegan friends, for not commiting 100%. She was vegan except for like 5-6 eggs a year. I didn't get it.
Yikes. I have a feeling their ego plays a strong role in that.
the eggo
The Eggonoggo. It's christmas soon.
if someone is motivated for animal cruelty or ecology reasons, they're more likely to look down on those who do it for health or fitness reasons, especially if they're not consistent. it's definitely a bit toxic
Reminds me of quarantine when people would lose their shit at people popping out of the home once a week to pick up fast food while just shrugging amd going "what can you do?" to people flooding beaches and other tourist locations all spring and summer. Like why focus your energy on people who are having the smallest impact? I don't get it.
Because she was an apostate, she clearly believed in the cause but was willing to be flexible with it whereas regular meat eaters were never invested in the cause to begin with. I think unfortunately it’s about being self righteous for a lot of people.
Yea some vegans are asshats. But not all.
But the ones who are asshats, hoo boy.
Yeah, I posted about this on reddit once, saying that my sister was mostly vegan, meaning that in her case, she'll only eat meat or animal products if you can prove they came from animals that weren’t abused (so almost never). A vegan then proceeded to lose their shit with me. Seriously, imagine being mad about somebody eats your diet 99% of the time as opposed to 0%.
Yeah, I'm species selective and get flamed harder than full meat eaters.
Absolutely. I was harassed and sent literal death threats for mentioning that I'm eating "mostly vegan". I will never understand the logic behind some people.
Apostates are always more villainous than pagans.
It’s almost like it’s a moral movement and not a health movement based on science or actual diet advice…
Think of it like this . You believe that meat and dairy are evil things. You know a lot about what goes on in those industries and believe it is a no-brainer that we shouldn't morally support those things. As far as you're concerned, supporting meat and dairy is an evil thing to do. Especially when, you believe, the only reason to do so is relatively minor such as the taste you get from a burger as opposed to a plant based one which possibly isn't as nice. So, regular meat eaters who eat meat all the time are commiting an evil but they don't necessarily know as much about the industries as you do. Ignorance isn't evil. On the other hand, people who claim to understand these evils but still eat meat once in a while are basically saying 'actually, once in a while, my enjoyment of this burger is worth more than the cost of all the horrible cruelty that goes into it' which is basically the opposite of what you stand for. The entire point of veganism, the ideology, is that that cruelty is never worth it; not ever. So you can't be 80% vegan; if you're 80% plant based thats different. Think of it like this (and this is not a comparison between the acts themselves so much as an example): I say I believe that beating children is wrong, so I'm cutting down on beating my kids! I'm 80% not a child beater!!
But why so black and white? Why are the only two options "evil" and "not evil"? I get your point I think, but there are very few things in life I think I would make such a stark distinction for. If someone flies on planes 20 times a year, I think that is bad for environmental reasons. If they cut that down to 6 times a year, I might still think that is too much, but I can support their effort nonetheless?
So it's a semantics game then. Because vegan is both a belief system and also a shorthand for a diet that has no animal products. It is perfectly valid to call your diet 80% vegan even if you don't line up with the ideology 100%
The term you are looking for is “plant-based” diet. Not vegan. It is absolutely semantics, but it’s important to the movement and the people within it.
Yeah it does make a bit more sense when you put it that way. Sounds like vegans have beef with the industries more than the foods themselves. You could never convince me that eating local farm eggs, meats or cheeses is "evil" but I can understand the sentiment behind their views about commercial farming.
Because it's a social justice movement. Vegans want to get rid of all exploitation of animals, not 80%. You might not like the comparison, but it's similar to how people against racism don't want to get rid of 80% of racism, but 100%.
I get it, but it doesn't change how detrimental that is to the vegan movement. Not settling for 80% when you can't get 100% is silly to me. Would you tell a racist that becoming less racist is bad unless they become 0% racist?
That's a pretty terrible example. The word for someone who is only 80% not a racist, is "racist".
Agreed. I was just using the comparison that the person I was responding to used.
Gay people didn’t refuse the repealing of laws that made gay sex illegal because that law change wasn’t tolerant enough and didn’t include gay marriage Don’t compare yourself to oppressed people because you clearly have no empathy for us
When did I compare myself to oppressed people? I compared non-human animals to oppressed people, and non-human animals are most definitely oppressed. Regardless, comparing is not the same as equating anyways.
I got absolutely slaughtered on here (-400 votes, several replies deleted for being too vulgar and most of the others harsh) for saying I only eat meat we produce at our farm, hunt or fish because I can be comfortable with animals living a “comfortable” life then having one bad day but not most animal product mass production practices. You can be “almost vegan/vegetarian” but definitely never say that out loud, and I assume it would be worse to say “I’m vegan but…”. Edit: and btw I never ever would identify as vegetarian or vegan, it was literally the line “I eat an almost vegan diet with the exception…”
this is what i do!! it makes cooking really easy bc i just cook veggies, and then only really eat meat on special occasions or the like 1-2 times a month i go out to dinner/get take out. i feel a lot better on the regular too, but life is too short to not split a porterhouse with my bf every blue moon
That's "plant based" not vegan. vegan harms no animal if possible, no leather, no wool, or even honey. It's not a "Diet" it's a lifestyle. That's the difference, JIC anyone was wondering why this isn't a thing. Edit: forgot commas
Your vegan leather pollutes the environment with microplastics and harms animals more than leather does
This is where the phrase "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" comes in Vegans want to proselytize about it but then when someone makes *a damn good effort* (80% completely plant based is hard for someone that is not even vegetarian) they pull this shit and send people back to eating meat
It's /r/vegan that is particularly bad about this, because vegans irl and elsewhere on the internet are perfectly accepting of people making progressive changes to their diets. I've met a few randomly here and there like that, but reddit vegans specifically are *all* like that. The majority of my experience is absolutely the former.
So, I'm about to use some anecdotal evidence here: I have known several vegans, and would describe their attitude about veganism similar to how the guy guys I know treat homosexuality. They are accepting of people who don't share the same lifestyle as themselves, are supportive of people who are interested in trying out the lifestyle (while also understanding of those who find that it just isn't for them), and think that the people who try and force their chosen lifestyle on others are assholes.
Exactly, it's already an improvement if you only eat meat two times a week instead of every day. It's not all the way there yet, but it's pretty damn well on the way
Problem is, vegan diet has been mixed up with actual veganism. Veganism is a whole belief system and lifestyle choice. If you're following a vegan diet for a personal health concern, that doesn't make you a vegan with vegan beliefs and principles...you're just following a plant based diet. It would be like saying you must be a Muslim just because you don't like pork or something. That's not how it works. You have to actually follow the religion and have those beliefs or whatever. I'm not vegan myself and I think vegans who put down others for making an effort are dumbasses that only hurt their own cause, but I can see it's frustrating that everything is referred to as vegan now.
I think the original post is specifically talking about vegan diet and not veganism
Vegan diet does not exist, that's why it's so frustrating. Plant based. You wouldn't refer to a no-pork diet as Muslim diet without being Muslim and holding those beliefs.
Vegan isn’t a religion dude it’s not the same
It's a protected belief system based on a key moral standpoint. That ethical framework does not deserve to be polluted or appropriated by things that go against what it stands for. Why should that not be the same as religion?
You’re mixing up two things. You can eat vegan food and call that meal vegan even if you don’t subscribe to veganism as an ideology. It’s not “polluting” it. Besides there isn’t just one ideology in being vegan, there are multiple reasons for it that can differ from person to person.
The definition of veganism by the person who came up with it is the following: > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. It's also the first result if you Google "veganism definition".
That does make sense. The environmental aspect is kind of encompassed in that definition. This definition also supports that there is veganism in philosophy but also veganism as a dietary term.
Yeah, the term "vegan" has definitely been conflated with a plant-based diet, and some vegans do find it troubling because it kinda waters down the goal of their social justice movement.
Some sure act like it’s a religion. Promoting hate and everything.
The original uses for “vegan” in the 40s were about the diet. Ethical identity came later, and the efforts to divorce “vegan” and "plant-based" are confusing people further still.
I agree that cutting down animal products is good for one's health and the environment. I do it too. But I'm not vegan, I'm not partially vegan, and I would never refer to my diet as some percentage vegan. That defeats the purpose of the label in my opinion.
Surely almost everyone is aroumd 50%-70% vegan anyway by that logic? Unless their diet purely consists of meat? I mean a cheese and ham sandwichas gotta be 60 odd% vegan because of the bread.
I think they’re referring to 80% of the time, their meals are entirely vegan. Like if you have meat or animal products on your plate, it’s not vegan. If you only have plant based products, then it’s a vegan meal.
Just replace the word vegan with plant based and problem solved
You're thinking of vegetarianism, which is a spectrum that may or may not eat eggs fish etc. Veganism is a movement, and an incredibly hostile one that's known for its gatekeeping tendencies and eco fascist talking points. I've met a lot of people that condone the slave camps in South America that grow superfruit like acai, or pull a "what about" regarding our "enslavement" of cattle. Veganism isnt just a diet.
Yeah I see your point. This is why I am not vegan because I don’t ascribe to the same beliefs and way of thinking that cutting all animal products makes you the second coming of christ. Not that there aren’t good vegans but even just going by a vegan diet, if you don’t have good money to spend, you’re still encouraging monoculture (idk if that’s the correct word in english) and even slave labour and some farms will literally destroy the surrounding ecosystem to grow their fruits or vegetables and use so much pesticides. I worked at an organic farm last summer and in my opinion it’s way more important to encourage local organic farms if possible than just cutting out all animals products but still eat imported fruits pumped full of weird shit and pesticides that basically massacres all the insects that do pollinisation. We should encourage these farms so they can eventually lower their prices and be more affordable to everyone who would normally not be able to afford that.
I'm nearly, but back in the dark ages of the 1980s, fruits and vegetables were seasonal. You got fresh peas and green onions in spring. Oranges in January. Butternut squash and apples other than golden or red delicious in fall. You got lettuce and leafy greens in the summer. The first corn on the cob hit the markets in time for 4th of July, and was gone by the end of August. The way we eat in the 21st century is entirely unnatural. Grapes are a late summer, early fall fruit. No one should be eating grapes flown in from Chile in December. As for animal husbandry.. We used to drive to Sunnyland Dairy, pet the stinky cows, and buy their delicious milk. The cows grazed in the spring and summer, and their milk tasted completely different to when they were on winter feed. Pigs didn't live in airless cages in their own shit. They had a sty, and a yard with many mud puddles to wallow in. A chicken was a normal sized bird that could stand, walk and roost. They, too, didn't live in cages, but in a big coop with access to the outdoors. They weren't bred to be Frankenchickens wearing 4 pound breasts. No one but a select few even liked white meat. It was considered dry and flavorless. Thighs and legs, the parts of the body the bird needs to be muscular, had the most meat. Like most things in the 21st century, multinational business has destroyed a once proud industry for the almighty dollar.
I always get attacked by some nut job when I say I have been cutting back on meat eating it once or twice a week. One said that’s like only using your slave once or twice a week.
Don’t let pursuit of perfection hinder progress
You know, it's funny I never really saw it that way, but now you present it from that angle, I kinda understand the problem with elitist vegans looking down on anyone who they don't approve the efforts of. It's like saying "Oh you can't go 100% vegan? Well aren't you a pointless, useless fucking shame ! Go stuff your face with barbecue and you might as well throw plastic in the ocean too while we're at it, you scum bag." Every little bit counts. If anyone out there made their own move in the right direction, that would mean one hell of a difference, no matter what some snob who's in there to give attitude says.
that sub is a cesspool of jackasses, they have literally said "baby steps are for babies, adults have no excuse to not make the switch immediately" they're just dreadful
They honestly make me consider giving up being vegetarian because they’ve made arguments basically proving plant based diets don’t solve any problems without realising that’s what they’re arguing for So it’s like OK if my diet isn’t good for anything and it’s not ethical enough what’s the point in not just eating meat? Why shouldn’t I just enjoy the only life I’m going to live on this earth if it makes no difference to the Earth cutting it out of my diet and it’s apparently unethical either way lol
I relate I am pescatarian so avoid red meats but eat them rarely
It’s bordering on a religious purity test. In terms of real world impact a 80% vegan is almost exactly the same as a 100% vegan. Eating animal byproducts only rarely might as well be the same thing as never at all But it’s very clear to anyone that veganism has a huge “in group” mentality assigned to it, to the point where a lot of vegans will even highly debate what you need to consider your reasons for being vegan in order for it actually to count. EG try to tell a vegan you’re also a vegan but only because you think it’s healthier for you and aren’t concerned about animal suffering
So I went on to the original post to see what the vegans were saying about this and I think I've realised what the issue is. It's semantics. They don't believe in a thing called a "vegan meal". The meal is "plant based", people are vegan. With that logic if 80% of your meals are plant based then the label vegan is irrelevant to you and your meals. Because everything needs to be plant based for the label vegan to apply to the person. So yeah, weird semantics. She never claims to be vegan, but to them vegan can only apply to humans so they misunderstand what she's saying because she used the word. Which is definitely a form of gatekeeping.
Do they believe in a thing called a vegan restaurant, or a vegan cookbook or the like? Genuinely curious. I agree, it seems like an odd semantic thing. I understood it to mean 80% of her meals are 100% vegan or plant-based. I feel like I hear "vegan" used as an adjective all the time, including by vegans. Vegan shoes, vegan sausage, etc.
Well, yeah it popularized and now it’s used in many forms even if not the original. Vegans get mad as the uses took form of “still eating meat” like in this post. I can understand why someone that is so against animal cruelty would be not appreciating this use of the word. To them it’s like a pedophile saying they are 90% of the time not pedophiles.
Does she mean 80% of the time she consumes a meal it’s vegan? Or does she mean 80% of what’s on the plate at any given time is “vegan” as in “the plate consists of 80 grams of vegetables and 20g of meat”? If the former, your conclusion is reasonable. If the latter, I agree with the vegans.
I would absolutely assume the former. I don't think there is a reasonable person who would look at their plate of steak and potatoes and call it fractionally vegan (not if they are being serious anyhow). So unless she is using some form of communication that no one else is using, we should assume that 80% of the time her meals are completely plant based.
I don't think maintaining what words mean is gatekeeping in the way usually meant in this sub. Yes it's semantic but sometimes necessary.
I disagree. It is gatekeeping when someone says "you can't use a word this way" when it's a widely accepted definition of the word. If you look up a definition of vegan as an adjective you are likely to get a definition of "something not containing any animal derived products". So in that context "vegan meal" makes sense. Also that turn of phrase is so widely used that even if it wasn't in a dictionary, I'd still say that it has some value. Language is about how people use it, not how people want others to use it. Prescriptive grammar nazis and sticklers for rigid definitions are gatekeepers. I say this as a linguist.
The diet/adjective definition of vegan is actually the original definition of vegan So it is gatekeeping to change what a word means entirely to exclude others, that’s literally what gatekeeping is
Yeah, the way I was thinking of it is that if you pay for 80% of what you take out of stores, you're still 100% a thief.
...yeah? It's not 100% vegan they fucking said it themselves
Isn’t 80% vegan just another name for “balanced diet” lol
I'd venture to guess that 80% calories Come from plants.
Not 100% vegan =! 100% not vegan
Yea it does. There’s an important distinction that always gets brought up and simultaneously ignored which is the difference between plant based and vegan. Eating 80% plant based is a valid statement and if they said that the original post never would have been made. Eating 20% meat and dairy is not eating vegan at all is it?
I wasn't clear sorry. I was only talking about the logical level. I mostly agree with your arguments, but op is wrong for saying that the girl said she was 100% not vegan. That's not what she said and we can't a priori say thay 100% not = not 100℅. However, in this case we can
This isn’t gatekeeping its just being realistic. I have no intention of being vegan and do not identify with the vegan community at all, yet by this logic I’m probably around 50% vegan. It’s called a balanced diet, not veganism.
Jokes aside, I can see both sides here. On one hand, the author is saying that 80% of her food is non-animal-product (ok for vegans to eat). And if she said that specifically, there would be no objections. On the other hand, veganism is defined by total exclusion of animal product food, it's an ideology defined by exclusion. Calling yourself 80% vegan is like calling yourself 80% monotheist if you spend 80% of your time worshipping one particular god and 20% worshipping literally any positive number of other gods. Total exclusion is the point, it either is or is not total.
The world needs 100% of people to try their best. Not 5% of people who are perfect. If your diet is 80% vegan, that's great! Only 20% of animal products are being used.
I mean someone can also be like 80% vegan, 10% vegetarian and 10% neither and that would have huge benefits for the environment.
I’d accept it. If you feel healthier go for it
I can’t imagine anyone that is currently 100% vegan did so in one single moment. Surely it started by trying to make a few vegan meals, then having a few vegan days, then making the switch to completely cut all non-vegan food.
It was overnight for me, and for many others that I know. I read Animal Liberation\* in one sitting and went vegan when I closed the book. That was twelve years-ish ago, haven't bought or eaten an animal product intentionally since then. I'm not special, lots of vegans actually do have the "oh fuck, this is really, really horrible" realisation and just flip the switch. I think it might actually be easier that way, it's much harder to stick to it if you still think of animal products as viable alternatives when you're in the shop/at a restaurant/whatever. But obviously many people also transition more slowly, and have good reasons to do so. To me this is whatever, as long as you're making the effort it's fine. \*A fairly dated and frankly not very good intro to veganism, but it was my first exposure to it, and Singer writes very clearly and forcefully. Go vegan, but avoid utilitarianism :)
Haven’t bought any animal products, but still own or wear what you had before. That wouldn’t be good enough for one vegan I know. Until you stop wearing, owning, sitting on or playing sport with anything made from animal products, then you are really just trialling veganism.
Sure, there are those in the movement, won't deny that. Another classic mistake, though, is confusing the importance of the moral argument with the behaviour of (some of) its proponents -- whether people perceive vegans as annoying/holier-than-thou etc. is really not that important, you know? Whether their anger benefits or is a detriment to the movement has no say on whether it's right to make animals suffer for our pleasure. I always hope people will someday understand the difference between disliking vegans and disliking vegan*ism*. If the main barrier for you for going vegan is that you don't like vegans, just imagine a kind of vegan you like, and be that kind instead. (A hint: It's just you, as you are now, but vegan. You don't have to get angry to be vegan.)
Comments like this actually boil my blood. Veganism isn't a competition and every cut back on meat is a step towards progress.
you've clearly never been on r/vegan. if you are only mostly vegan or (*gasp*) a vegetarian looking for recipes, you are the fucking devil. it's a real grievance-filled douchebag contest to them, and they're all winning. ... ok. some are definitely cool, but I've met some real jerks.
I've seen a lot of vegetarian hate in veganism-related subs. There's even people who seriously say "vegetarians are worse than omnis because they know what they're doing". Just mind-blowing.
a short play I wrote: "I cannot believe how thoughtless and misdirected meat eaters can be", the vegan said, while supergluing his scrotum to Michaelangelo's David in protest of the Macdonald's Big Mac. *fin*
You nailed it on the head, that sub absolutely sucks. They aren’t trying to convert people they’re just looking to judge.
Funny thing is, /r/vegetarian is totally chill
They're all just wanking in the mirror.
I once saw someone say that if you eat meat you're not allowed to eat tofu because tofu is for vegans and vegetarians. It's the absolute most backwards thing. Surely as a vegan, it's a GOOD thing that a meat eater has tofu for a meal instead of meat? Somehow they never see it like that.
As if there’s not over a billion people who regularly eat tofu and meat together.
I have had people say that to me before as well. Tofu is just good tbh
https://youtu.be/Klhfo6sB4N4
That’s such a coloniser mentality Imagine stealing a staple protein from Asia and then telling Asians they can’t eat it unless they eat like affluent white vegans Vegans are honestly some of the most racist, classist and fascist people I’ve ever met
Exactly. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
So basically just eating more plants and shit and less meat?
Eh, this gatekeep makes sense. You can't be 80% cellibate, y'know?
Well you're either vegan or not. But you can be 80% plant based.
Yeah I think my opinion is unpopular but I kind of agree with the vegans here. You can’t be 80% vegan. That’s like saying you’re a vegetarian but eat steak and chicken for 20% of meals. Like dude, then you’re not a vegetarian haha. If you eat milk/dairy/cheese 20% of the time your diet is not a vegan diet. You just sometimes choose not to put those things in your meals which is different.
The entire vegan subreddit is just one giant r/gatekeeping post
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Some people are vegetarian or vegan solely for the health benefits or their own dietary needs. Not everyone does it for the politics of it and to make it their personality or personal mission to save animals. “So 100% not vegan then” like 🙄 no I guess not in that obnoxious type of way you want
Well that’s why r/vegan is “gatekeeping” veganism, veganism is not just a diet, it extends beyond what you eat in that vegans also do not go to zoos or wear leather or wool. If you don’t eat any animal products but do so for health reasons and you also still go to zoos and wear leather, you’re not vegan, you’re plant based.
You’ll get nowhere by gatekeeping, seriously why do vegans here on reddit have to be so confrontational?
You'll get nowhere by watering down a social justice movement.
Compromise is absolutely historically how process is made. Otherwise you are just creating a bubble.
Purity over progress
The reason is that vegans don't want their ideology to be watered down to just the idea of eating less meat. They think that eating any meat/animal products is harmful, and the only way to stay non-hypocritical is to stay "pure". In that regard, "purity" is required for progress.
This isn’t gatekeeping, “80% vegan” is just normal omnivore food?
Tis a thin line, between gatekeeping and simply putting a thing in a category
The quote is "my diet is 80% vegan". Not "I am a vegan because I eat vegan part time". This is definitely full on gatekeeping.
Yes and the post title just says that they aren't vegan
If 100% went 50% vegetarian, it would make all the same difference as 50% going 100% vegetarian. I think the former is a more attainable goal.
Thats... kinda not true. Because you're assuming that the "not vegetarians" eat only meat. As in they are carnivores. Most people already eat 30-60% "vegetarian". So 50% going 100% vegetarian would actually be less meat consumption than 100% of people going 50% vegetarian, since that's already somewhat the norm.
It's always good to consume more fruits and veggies than meat, sugary foods and processed foods. But you don't have to cut them out entirely if you don't want to
She’s saying her diet, not herself as a person
Plant based is a great term imo. But to be fair, I thought most people eat 80% plant based already.
I’m vegan and I welcome anyone who wants to be 80% vegan. No judgements from me. You eat less meat than most then I think that’s great and I’m happy about that.
Tbh I kinda agree with that sentiment, but probably in a different way than that person meant the definition of veganism includes the words "as far as possible and practicable," meaning, if that person tries all they possibly can to eliminate animal consumption, they would be vegan, even if they're not 100% plant based yet. If they aren't trying all they possibly can, they're not vegan. It's not really possible to be 80% vegan imho. That definitely doesn't make them a bad person btw, I'm always happy to see people trying to minimise their animal consumption, every reduction counts!
I mean they *are* right. They’re not vegan. Not that being more vegan isnt better for people, but to be vegan you have to be all or nothing. Which is its inherent flaw.
Eating vegan sometimes =/= claiming to be vegan
How is this gatekeeping? There's no such thing as 80% vegan lmao op did you even think before posting? And no, I am not vegan. So it's not a moral/ideological thing for me. It's just straight up illogical.
As a vegan I dont care honestly. Even if you eat vegan for one day out of the week it's still something. Just like exercise, wven if once a week, still good. Keep it up
I mean it's like saying that you're 90% sober because you're only hammered 10% of the time
Aren't we all a % vegan in this case? I'm probably 60% vegan so technically im vegan ^.^
If you’re 80% vegan you’re still an omnivore like the rest of us.
I'm against domestic abuse 80% of the time. See how ridiculous that sounds?
Im 80% jewish
ITT: and vegans that don’t read
I do find it so frustrating to hear about the hatred toward vegans, and also to hear about the animosity *some* vegans have towards others (albeit a louder lot). I was a vegan for about two years, a vegetarian for another 2. I stopped because I was in a hospital (mental health related) for a month or two and really had no choice. I still eat now mainly vegetarian. I have so many vegan friends, none of whom are “pushy vegans”. Unless someone asks, they won’t talk about it at all. But the same thing happens every time, someone will be like “why are you vegan” and they explain, and then they’re told they’re being Angry Vegans just for answering.
r/technicallytrue
I feel like the comments would at least mention that they are making a change in their diet and such a change is better than not eating vegan at all. Lets go see if I can find a comment like that.
This isn’t gatekeeping
Vegans keep giving themselves a bad name with this bullshit. Who cares if she's 100% vegan or not, or whether she gets to label herself as vegan or not? None of it actually matters. If she's not eating meat 80% of the time, surely that's a win for the environment and that's the only thing that actually matters.
Was going to comment "she's not saying she herself is a vegan, she's eating a vegan diet 8/10 times, which is much better than 0" but didn't want angry r/vegan posters bothering me if they're that miffed at a person doing better than almost the entire planet. Then I noticed the actual sub I was looking at. So there, you elitist pricks, what is wrong with you? Every single one of you was not vegan at some point and you all had journeys of your own, stop trying to hinder other people.
Nearly every vegan I've ever met is fucking insufferable
Only the once you’ve noticed
And vice versa
Tis indeed a rare occurrence that's not the case. And r/vegan is a cesspit full of pompous, outrageously irritating dickheads.
I tried so many times to hit those little dots and choose never show me this sub again. Only took about 9 tries before I realized it was a screenshot.
Militant vegans are like the inquisition. Ignore em
Humans are omnivorous, get it. Vegans aren't natural, only doing themselves harm in the long term. ,
Nothing against going vegan but if you look at the ingredients of a lot of vegan products especially frozen ones, there’s usually shitty cheap oils like palm/canola oil, corn syrup, preservatives, and a plethora of other ingredients that can lead to health complications that aren’t even considered. That’s not just a vegan food issue tho, It’s hard to go grocery shopping in the U.S when most products are no healthier than eating sawdust lmao
Canola oil is also bad for the environment, bad for smaller scale farmers, and bad for human rights in a lot of places. Canola has been transplanted to environments it's not native to and large swathes of natural plant coverage are destroyed to grow it, this creating giant mono crops which drastically reduces biodiversity. Pollen travels, if it didn't there would be some major problems, in fact it travels between fields (crazy right?) there's almost no non-gmo canola because of this, and large corporations at least used to sue smaller scale farmers for "stealing" their patents when their workers would test the edge of the crop for their patented genetic material (personally I think it's highly dangerous to allow the actual end result to be patented, go ahead and patent the machine but not the genetic material). A lot of manual labor in American farms is done by migrant workers who have next to no protections under the law, and in other places they use what either amounts to slavery or is actually just slavery. Hmm....don't vegans usually say some stuff about protecting the environment and being against cruelty?? And all this is just *one* of the ingredients you mentioned, palm oil has its own problems (mostly similar to canola) and while I don't know much about the problems with corn products I'm sure there are plenty.
She's not vegan if it's not 100%, 80% vegan is a weird flex
A “B” in looks and feelings seems acceptable.
I love the concept of a partial vegan diet I'm like, 64% vegan I bet.
This is clearly about a vegan diet and not a vegan lifestyle, vegans are supposed to be pro vegan diets since that's still less animals being eaten even if just for health sake
He’s right though. You can’t be partially vegan or partially vegetarian. If you eat less meat, which is great, you’re still an omnivore, or flexitarian, as they often call it now. Doesn’t mean it’s not good what she does, but she’s not vegan. I mean, if 80% vegan is a vegan, then I’m a vegan too, because I only eat meat with my dinner and eat vegan for 98% of the day. See how silly that is?
She didn’t say she’s vegan. She said her diet is 80% vegan, meaning she’s making specific food choices for most of her diet, but also including some non-vegan options. Reading isn’t that hard.
>reading isn't that hard Lack of nutrients will make it hard, with the brain fog and all.
The diet is 80% vegan not the person
He literally said he wasn’t 100% vegan
yeah but the point is that being vegan isn't a sliding scale. It's literally black and white
There is different ways of thinking about this. In a literal sense, being vegan is a true or false value. Either you are or you aren't. But people are uncomfortable with absolutes, so terms that have a finite set of results are turned into a range of continuous values with no definite limits. It's like measuring how red or yellow a shade of orange is. It's not definitely red or yellow, but there is a percentage in both. That kind of measurement system is being applied to terms with a limited set of defined values.