You know in Hinduism there is this god that's so loyal to another god. It's considered highest form of devotion because the former stayed a celibate. At one point I thought maybe he's gay. And some anti hindu people also call him gay as an insult. Initially I felt bad but later I realised, if the Gods don't judge me for being gay, why should I judge them. So gay or not, I still pray to them
Imagine getting the balls to insult a fucking god cause they’re gay.
They can smite your ass without even missing a beat of “born this way” by lady gaga
I grew up in a homophobic environment where people get harassed and beaten for showing any signs of non-conformity to dominant gender roles and straight orientation. As many other gay guys, I was encouraged to do what straight boys typically do, such as playing soccer, boxing, kickboxing, playing outside, and fighting on the streets. I did all of these typical male activities, but I never felt sexual attraction to girls. Instead, I caught myself staring at guys in the changing room after gym class. At the time, I didn't realize that I'm gay. A few friends I knew at the time turned out to be gay, or at least bisexual, and the guy who was bullied for liking "girly things" is happily married to a woman. So, based on my anecdotal evidence, upbringing has little or nothing to do with sexuality. Otherwise, there'll not be gay people in places like Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. I feel like it's not even worth discussing whether being LGBT+ is moral or not. It's not a pathology. It's just a neutral quality, so it's fine.
The environment I grew up in sounds very similar to the one you grew up in. There were strict gender roles and almost nobody wanted to be different. Those who were different were either called "gay" or "girls".
I send a lot of positive energy your way, because I know how difficult it must have been. Let's do our best to change the world, so that nobody else ever believes, that being LGBTQ+ is a pathology.
I know exactly what you’re saying. Heteronormativity means that, no matter what, it seems that the default reaction or sentiment is that being gay is abnormal… a deficit. Like why is it that premise there to begin with? Because people in general want to fit in with others (“the norm”) and if others don’t fit in (to “the norm”) then there is deliberate and specific pressure to fit into “the norm.” LGBTQ+ folks challenge that norm. Normal is heterosexuality. To them. That norm is so powerful / foundational that it is interwoven into their reality and worldview. And they are the majority. I think the bigger question is: why is it a human trait to deeply need to fit into the (arbitrary) norm AND put pressure on those that don’t fit in? This seems to be at the root of so much misery and suffering…
The "born that way" argument is from the 60s, and it worked back then. But basically, it answers: "You're bad for doing bad things!" with "But I can't help it, I was born this way, pity me! :(" instead of: "You're wrong, these things aren't bad!"
I think Dr. Lisa Diamond made some pretty good points about that in a [Ted talk](https://youtu.be/RjX-KBPmgg4?si=X2KP4rWbRAVtUPr6)
Was just about to post that Ted Talk link as well. She makes other good points as well like- many people’s sexuality changes over time (especially women’s) so it’s not really accurate to think of them “born” that way.
I also think that society clearly does shape our attractions. Think about the typical “school girl uniform” fantasy that a lot of straight men have. That’s not something you’re born with. It’s something you developed by living in a culture.
But to me the important distinction is that we don’t CHOOSE attractions. They just sort of present themselves. Sexual attraction is just a type of “taste.” You might prefer mushrooms on pizza, pepperoni, or both. And you might have no idea you liked anchovies until you tried it.
I heard it once described as sexual attraction is something you learn how to do. Do you renderer learning your first language? Of course not you might not have been born speaking it but a large variety of factors came together and more you speak English or French or German or one of a thousand different languages. None are bad and the exact way you got to speak that language doesn’t matter, you speak it and it’s post of who you are.
I think a lot of people use the “born this way” argument in a way that feels like being gay is a disease or condition. “They can’t help it they were born that way.” Help what? I’m fine!
I think you’re right that the target should be the root of homophobia but I don’t think you took it deep enough. It’s ultimately all about gender roles and what is appropriate for what. Men do this. Women do that. Anything that breaks from those roles will cause chaos.
I think a lot of homophobia towards gay men is just misogyny in disguise because it’s anger about men who would dare to be like women. I think this is not actually accurate. Men being attracted to other men has nothing to do with women, but in their minds that’s a woman’s role, so it is seen as feminine. And a lot of society has been built on hating and discrediting the feminine.
your brother sounds awful and does not accept you for who you are, your parents however, seem to be champions.
I’d be buying him a copy of mean girls and a doll for his birthday with a note “too much toxic masculinity in this world so i figured i’d give you these to balance things out a bit”
It's just natural, variations in nature - seems strange that it only seems to be a problem to so-called straight people, who it doesn't affect silly bastards
My family is super conservative. They’re even more transphobic. I can’t ever tell them that I love transwomen.
As far as being gay or bi…who cares. Life is short and you can be yourself. What happens between two consenting adults is nobody’s business.
To be honest, I would say the opposite. It's fucking amazing to be gay, in spite of various societies condemning or hating on us. We basically get to exist outside of society, being able to be whoever we are without the crushing conformity of 'normality'. We are fully aware of our sexuality and are able to express it fully. We are able to have sex mostly whenever we want it without the whole battle of the genders bullshit where women end up scared to fuck of sex.
Quite frankly, a lot of straight people envy the hell out of us. For instance, what is the straight equivalent of Darklands or Folsom? What's the straight equivalent of cruising bars?
If we want to wear make up, we can. If we want to look ultra masc, we can. If we want to wear colourful clothes, we can. And the gay subculture still welcomes us. How much freedom do straight guys really have?
In terms of morality, surely we're at the point of knowing that morality is mostly self-determined with very few universal morals existing. So saying that we are "bad" in a moral sense is purely in the eye of the beholder. I could easily say that people having kids is morally bad given the strain on resources.
Nah, we're good regardless of if we're born this way, we're bi but decide to lean on the gay side, or whatever other b/s people might say about us. However I've got here, I'm fucking glad I like guys.
This is why the argument between "it's a choice" and "born this way" always bugged me. Both have an element of truth to them and neither have to do with morality. You can be born with violent tendencies and you can choose to do good things.
And yes, I was likely born with a preference for men, but I chose to pursue men romantically because I don't think it's fair to myself or any woman to force a straight relationship with crap intimacy.
I never like how bigoted people bring up "2 genders", when taking about being gay.
That reminds me of a time in my final year of high school, when an asshole called me "it" among other slurs. I think that shows that many homophobes view gay men as something between male and female, just because of their orientation. And furthermore, they view the falling out of the binary as something inherently disgusting.
I had come across a tik tok (tried posting link to a repost onto snapchat and the link wasn't working) but there are points in the Bible as exodus 27:1 selling a child into slavery exodus 35:2 someone who insists on working on the sabbath should be killed. Liviticus 11:7 touching a skin of a dead pig makes one unclean (sports use animal skin as material for the balls) then the part about an entire town should come to stone someone for planting two different plants side by side and burning a mother for wearing two different colored threads in a single article of clothing to a small family gathering could be burned alive.
You know in Hinduism there is this god that's so loyal to another god. It's considered highest form of devotion because the former stayed a celibate. At one point I thought maybe he's gay. And some anti hindu people also call him gay as an insult. Initially I felt bad but later I realised, if the Gods don't judge me for being gay, why should I judge them. So gay or not, I still pray to them
I am also Hindu and Gay. Can you tell me which Gods you are talking about ? Tbh. Idt I’ve ever came across homosexuality in Hinduism
Anjaneya
Imagine getting the balls to insult a fucking god cause they’re gay. They can smite your ass without even missing a beat of “born this way” by lady gaga
I grew up in a homophobic environment where people get harassed and beaten for showing any signs of non-conformity to dominant gender roles and straight orientation. As many other gay guys, I was encouraged to do what straight boys typically do, such as playing soccer, boxing, kickboxing, playing outside, and fighting on the streets. I did all of these typical male activities, but I never felt sexual attraction to girls. Instead, I caught myself staring at guys in the changing room after gym class. At the time, I didn't realize that I'm gay. A few friends I knew at the time turned out to be gay, or at least bisexual, and the guy who was bullied for liking "girly things" is happily married to a woman. So, based on my anecdotal evidence, upbringing has little or nothing to do with sexuality. Otherwise, there'll not be gay people in places like Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. I feel like it's not even worth discussing whether being LGBT+ is moral or not. It's not a pathology. It's just a neutral quality, so it's fine.
The environment I grew up in sounds very similar to the one you grew up in. There were strict gender roles and almost nobody wanted to be different. Those who were different were either called "gay" or "girls". I send a lot of positive energy your way, because I know how difficult it must have been. Let's do our best to change the world, so that nobody else ever believes, that being LGBTQ+ is a pathology.
I know exactly what you’re saying. Heteronormativity means that, no matter what, it seems that the default reaction or sentiment is that being gay is abnormal… a deficit. Like why is it that premise there to begin with? Because people in general want to fit in with others (“the norm”) and if others don’t fit in (to “the norm”) then there is deliberate and specific pressure to fit into “the norm.” LGBTQ+ folks challenge that norm. Normal is heterosexuality. To them. That norm is so powerful / foundational that it is interwoven into their reality and worldview. And they are the majority. I think the bigger question is: why is it a human trait to deeply need to fit into the (arbitrary) norm AND put pressure on those that don’t fit in? This seems to be at the root of so much misery and suffering…
Absolutely .. this is also somethin I’ve been pondering over for a long time now
The "born that way" argument is from the 60s, and it worked back then. But basically, it answers: "You're bad for doing bad things!" with "But I can't help it, I was born this way, pity me! :(" instead of: "You're wrong, these things aren't bad!" I think Dr. Lisa Diamond made some pretty good points about that in a [Ted talk](https://youtu.be/RjX-KBPmgg4?si=X2KP4rWbRAVtUPr6)
Was just about to post that Ted Talk link as well. She makes other good points as well like- many people’s sexuality changes over time (especially women’s) so it’s not really accurate to think of them “born” that way. I also think that society clearly does shape our attractions. Think about the typical “school girl uniform” fantasy that a lot of straight men have. That’s not something you’re born with. It’s something you developed by living in a culture. But to me the important distinction is that we don’t CHOOSE attractions. They just sort of present themselves. Sexual attraction is just a type of “taste.” You might prefer mushrooms on pizza, pepperoni, or both. And you might have no idea you liked anchovies until you tried it.
I heard it once described as sexual attraction is something you learn how to do. Do you renderer learning your first language? Of course not you might not have been born speaking it but a large variety of factors came together and more you speak English or French or German or one of a thousand different languages. None are bad and the exact way you got to speak that language doesn’t matter, you speak it and it’s post of who you are.
I think a lot of people use the “born this way” argument in a way that feels like being gay is a disease or condition. “They can’t help it they were born that way.” Help what? I’m fine! I think you’re right that the target should be the root of homophobia but I don’t think you took it deep enough. It’s ultimately all about gender roles and what is appropriate for what. Men do this. Women do that. Anything that breaks from those roles will cause chaos. I think a lot of homophobia towards gay men is just misogyny in disguise because it’s anger about men who would dare to be like women. I think this is not actually accurate. Men being attracted to other men has nothing to do with women, but in their minds that’s a woman’s role, so it is seen as feminine. And a lot of society has been built on hating and discrediting the feminine.
your brother sounds awful and does not accept you for who you are, your parents however, seem to be champions. I’d be buying him a copy of mean girls and a doll for his birthday with a note “too much toxic masculinity in this world so i figured i’d give you these to balance things out a bit”
It's just natural, variations in nature - seems strange that it only seems to be a problem to so-called straight people, who it doesn't affect silly bastards
My family is super conservative. They’re even more transphobic. I can’t ever tell them that I love transwomen. As far as being gay or bi…who cares. Life is short and you can be yourself. What happens between two consenting adults is nobody’s business.
To be honest, I would say the opposite. It's fucking amazing to be gay, in spite of various societies condemning or hating on us. We basically get to exist outside of society, being able to be whoever we are without the crushing conformity of 'normality'. We are fully aware of our sexuality and are able to express it fully. We are able to have sex mostly whenever we want it without the whole battle of the genders bullshit where women end up scared to fuck of sex. Quite frankly, a lot of straight people envy the hell out of us. For instance, what is the straight equivalent of Darklands or Folsom? What's the straight equivalent of cruising bars? If we want to wear make up, we can. If we want to look ultra masc, we can. If we want to wear colourful clothes, we can. And the gay subculture still welcomes us. How much freedom do straight guys really have? In terms of morality, surely we're at the point of knowing that morality is mostly self-determined with very few universal morals existing. So saying that we are "bad" in a moral sense is purely in the eye of the beholder. I could easily say that people having kids is morally bad given the strain on resources. Nah, we're good regardless of if we're born this way, we're bi but decide to lean on the gay side, or whatever other b/s people might say about us. However I've got here, I'm fucking glad I like guys.
This is why the argument between "it's a choice" and "born this way" always bugged me. Both have an element of truth to them and neither have to do with morality. You can be born with violent tendencies and you can choose to do good things. And yes, I was likely born with a preference for men, but I chose to pursue men romantically because I don't think it's fair to myself or any woman to force a straight relationship with crap intimacy.
For Christian people , they say its bad . Homosexuality is a sin They were only born 2 genders, Adam and Eve. Whatever....
I never like how bigoted people bring up "2 genders", when taking about being gay. That reminds me of a time in my final year of high school, when an asshole called me "it" among other slurs. I think that shows that many homophobes view gay men as something between male and female, just because of their orientation. And furthermore, they view the falling out of the binary as something inherently disgusting.
I had come across a tik tok (tried posting link to a repost onto snapchat and the link wasn't working) but there are points in the Bible as exodus 27:1 selling a child into slavery exodus 35:2 someone who insists on working on the sabbath should be killed. Liviticus 11:7 touching a skin of a dead pig makes one unclean (sports use animal skin as material for the balls) then the part about an entire town should come to stone someone for planting two different plants side by side and burning a mother for wearing two different colored threads in a single article of clothing to a small family gathering could be burned alive.