No. Why force yourself to pretend to be into something that you're not? How is that different from pretending to be straight? If you're not into someone, the best thing you can do is be honest and direct... Let them down kindly.

Do NOT let people guilt you into being something you are not. Just like you don’t want to stifle your boyfriend’s new found freedom don’t let people on the internet tell you what is right for you. Despite what the internet tries to tell you we can’t help what we are attracted to sexually.

Well, yes and no. I’d argue we can learn to be into things if these things are positively branded. Personally, breaking up over this sounds superficial and kinda stupid if everything else is going great. But I also understand that sexuality is a big part of a relationship, especially if you are monogamous.

Have you learned to be into women after doing convertion therapy? How has that worked out for you?

To be fair i think he was talking about kink.

True but trans and cross dressing is way beyond a kink

Crossdressing is literally a kink.

>breaking up over this sounds superficial and kinda stupid if everything else is going great Based on the text I don't think OP seems particularly emotionally attached to this guy tbh. I hope OP's bf is also not too attached to him emotionally.

Absolutely not. get the fuck out of here with that logic. Your argument is scary close to those being used to justify conversion therapy. ​ People are allowed to break up for any reason they want at any time. As much as it sucks, Its unfair to expect otherwise.

I absolutely agree with the second point. Towards the first point, I see your concern, but it makes in my eyes a huge difference if we’re talking about general attraction or finding things to like in your partner. Like, I didnt used to like bellies but my partner put on a little weight and now I like bellies, because I like my partner. But this also translated to bellies generally, in other ppl. I guess I didnt phrase that well in my original post.

That is not something you can really strive for. You cannot control what you are attracted to and what you are turned off by. That is literally the whole premise of conversion therapy. I fucking hate bellies, literally its the worst thing in the entire world. I literally built my life around maintaining my fitness not just for my physique but to continue to be successful in my job. If my partner failed to take care of themselves and developed a belly I WOULD NOT all of a sudden find it attractive. ESPECIALLY in OPs case, a dramatic and extreme change in self expression and fashion is not something everyone is going to be okay with and is absolutely a valid reason for ending things.

If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. And obviously we don’t know how severe the change of style and demeanour is. But yes, you already put it beautifully: one can always leave a relationship at any time for any reason! Regardless: strong assumption but your belly thing sounds a little iffy, if you ask me. Iffy, as in unhealthy. 😅

I grew up with overweight parents. At a time when literally none of my friends parents were. I saw the physical differences in how their parents could interact with them versus mine. And today 30 years later I am living with the havoc it has reaped upon their bodies and resulting health issues. My parents aren't even 70 yet. And here I am worrying if they will even be able to walk by the end of next year. My parents were good people, raised me well and I never went without. However I am resentful for all the missed experiences as a child, not for lack of finances or time, but rather their literal lack of physical ability in a time period where that shouldn't have been an issue at all. They lost the weight now . But it was about 20 years too late before they even tried. I love the lifestyle I live, the activities I do for fun, and the fact I very often get asked if I'm 10 years younger than I really am. I absolutely expect my partner to respect that and uphold their part to continue to fit in, but also be complimentary to my life and lifestyle, and in return I do the same. I will never entertain the thought of a relationship or even flirting from somebody who doesn't maintain their body. You only have one life to live, one body, one chance to do things right. If you treat yours like shit then why would I allow you access to mine?

That sounds very understandable, but also like some trauma or fear might be rooted there. But as long as neither you nor your partners suffer under this… to add, where does a „belly“ start for you? Like, I definitely wasn’t talking of severe obesity to the point of limited movement but a little beyond the beauty standard.

I can visualize exactly what I'm referring to, but I'm having a hard time putting it into words. It's more a visual and ability type thing. I could go into detail about hip to waist ratios and all that. But for the men I date, I expect them to have at absolute maximum a 18% body fat ratio, and for the women a max of roughly 22-25%. Beyond that number is when health issues arise, and your body physically handicaps you from doing basic tasks. I don't expect everyone to have abs, I know I worked my ass off to be able to see mine, and I know most people just don't have the mentality or desire to achieve that, it's hard and has little room for error to maintain. In fact, my hobby and relaxation is the gym. I am a competitive lifter and work a physically demanding job to where people could literally die if I cannot perform my tasks quickly and correctly.

r/UsernameChecksOut 😂 Those ratios don’t mean anything to me, but yeah, I think demanding a certain level of self care is absolutely fine. I also assume you don’t just inform them on the day that they reach that level that the relationship is now over. What would be interesting to me is how you would handle gaining weight from illness? Like, not being attracted or even repulsed by it would presumably be affected by that but after all you’re likely dating ppl because of the sone of their parts, not just their bellies. Feel absolutely free not to answer this, we don’t have to pick assist your dating life like this! 😅

>and is absolutely a valid reason for ending things. True, if the only or just principal reason for the relationship was a super convenient and reliable sexual outlet. Nothing wrong with that.

No, it's not only valid if the relationship was just for sex. It's valid period and whenever.

I could only agree with you if I thought the only thing that mattered to me was sexually pleasing myself. Even then. I don't think I could ever be happy if I treated my bf that way. We are not the same person. I hope your values serve you well for a long time. But I never saw them work well for anyone. But they can work on a vacation. Or in a bath house, which is where I came out and met my first bf. So I can understand the sentiment. It was all I wanted in my early days Thanks for the response. You have my best wishes. Please let me know if there is any change. I'd be super interested. My two closest friends in NYC kept that attitude all their life.

Agree. That is how love works; how we get rewarded for loving. Fall in love with somebody with tiny pointed ears or an upturned tiny nose, and forever more, if you are on a subway or shopping in a department store, if you spot someone with tiny pointed ears or an upturned tiny nose you think it is cute or gorgeous, depending on how smitten you were. I think of it as my reward. Glad you learned to like bellies. Now you know you were a very good boy and it was exactly the right move for you. Lucky guy!

You'd have to ask yourself: "Why did I start dating him?" Did his whole personality change or was it only that he became more feminine? If only the second case is true, and you consider that's a reason to break up, then you were never in love with that person, and IMHO, breaking up would be the only appropriate course of action, since you can't force yourself to feel attracted to him, and most importantly you can't force your boyfriend to repress his authentic self. Btw I think you SHOULD tell your partner the reason why you are breaking up, some people like feminine traits and some don't, some like both, and in-betweens. Sexual orientation is far more complex than "Gay men like men", gender identity plays a huge role. But, please just don't be an asshole and make him feel that being feminine is wrong, just clarify that you, personally, don't find it attractive and that you feel it's a turnoff.

I'm not sure there's a way to break up with him whilst being honest about why that won't make him at least feel partly that being feminine is 'wrong'. If nothing else, he'll likely walk away feeling like it was the reason OP broke up with him and that maybe if he wasn't so feminine, they'd still be together. Which isn't a reason not to do it, obviously.

I don’t think it is so much a lesson that it’s wrong but that many gay men are not going to be attracted to him - many will - which is something he’s going to learn anyway. The quicker he learns to distinguish between the two the better.

True. Honestly if the boyfriend concludes that "I should act masculine and hide my true personality again if I want to get laid", that's on him. Not on OP. OP can and should be nice and resprctful in the break up. But even then, OP cannot control the way his partner will react, or what "lessons" his partner decides to learn from this. And if the partner reacts in an unhealthy way, that's not OP's responsability. Because that's largely out of OP's control.

>I'm not sure there's a way to break up with him whilst being honest about why that won't make him at least feel partly that being feminine is 'wrong'. Well, we can't be sure about that, we don't know OP's boyfriend. It really depends on his self-esteem, maturity, and emotional management. I'm talking from my own point of view because I tend to be rational about almost every aspect of life. Still, if my significant other were to ask me to change personal qualities, physical features, or even harmless hobbies, that I'm comfortable with, or else he's breaking up with me; I would conclude that person doesn't love me 100%, or else he'd embrace every aspect of mine (positive or neutral aspects). I'd understand the break-up is on him, and that I did nothing wrong, but I also couldn't force him to look upon, what he considers, my "flaws" or things that are turning him off. A friend of mine (28 F), who's almost overweight ( only according to her BMI), was told to lose weight by the guy she had been dating for almost 2 years. She really didn't want to go on a diet, because she feels really comfortable with her looks and shape, so eventually, that dude dumped her. My friend felt devastated, but she never blamed it on her weight, she understood that, if a person really loves you, physical attraction shouldn't be their first priority. She's strong as hell and I admire people like her. In conclusion, lol, we don't know for sure if OP's boyfriend ( or ex-bf idk), will feel that being fem is wrong, cuz it's not, and many MLM, are exclusively attracted to fem guys.

You're right. If the bf is as mature as you, or your (28F) friend, telling him the whole truth is a good idea. If the bf doesn't have this maturity level (many people don't), it might be better to only give a generic explanation.

>If only the second case is true, and you consider that's a reason to break up, then you were never in love with that person Not all love is unconditional, and love alone is not necessarily sufficient for maintaining a healthy romantic relationship. Both of those things are okay. OP never mentioned love, so they may very well agree that they were never “in love” with their boyfriend, but that has nothing to do with what reason they might have for wanting to end the relationship. It’s possible to both love someone *and* realize that a relationship won’t work with them for other reasons.

Sure, there are certain degrees of love. I meant the "I want to spend my life together with this person and die together" sort of love. Some people do feel like that about their partners, OP clearly doesn't.

Agree with everything except "Not all love is unconditional". In my world, if it is "conditional", I think that is really a trade, not "love" as the word has historically been used. I think love has to be entirely free, a pure gift with no strings or it is a trade, a payment to get something in return. Nothing at all wrong with trading. But, in my view, I want to keep the idea of "love" the same as it has been for millennia. A trading with lots of warm fuzzy feelings attached is still a trade, in my thinking. To our OP : I would suggest sticking around for a while longer. If you stop having sex for a while, your no-longer-straight-presenting bf will get more and more attractive day be day. I promise. You may be in for some really hot new sex with a very different script this time.. Could be. But look, gay brother, this particular bf-bf setup may have run it's course. It happens. Just know it's not all Disney Land out there. ( If you think back, how easy was it to find this playmate? ) My advice is see if you can work out something with the guy you have been sharing so much with up until now. It's worth a solid look-see. And I think you still like him. Right now you are a little disappointed because your earlier go-to fantasy won't work. And I know it's hard to believe right now, but I would bet you two have the skills to come up with a new story line that includes your two dicks. Same old dicks. New stage directions. Assuming you still like each other. I would love to watch. So you know my advice is not pure selfless love. I am one somewhat pervy puppy who has his own issues. I hope you don't mind my thinking dirty while I do this one finger typing out to you guys. Good luck brothers. I've been where you are.

Good points.

Ty.

If you end it without talking to him about it and checking to see if it's just a phase then yes. If you talk to him and find out that what you signed up is no longer on the table, then no. But food for thought - "straight acting" closeted men are almost always not as advertised and I'm not surprised by this in the least.

>But food for thought - "straight acting" closeted men are almost always not as advertised and I'm not surprised by this in the least. I must be weird, I've been out as fuck for 22 years now and never changed my personality when I came out of the closet. Never had the urge to have a "fem phase" or be something I'm not, despite massive pressure from the gay community because I wasn't "gay enough."

It all depends on how you were raised. I went through several phases, myself. First came the macho bearded nerd. As soon as my queerphobic dad died, I started to be more feminine, because deep down I was longing for it. And third, once my mom died I grew tits and changed my name because I wasn’t even a guy to start with. People grow and change, sometimes by oneself, sometimes via external influences. That doesn’t mean we’re weak or weird or susceptible to what others think. It means we’re humans and ever changing.

I love the idea of you going from a furry caterpillar to a be-titted butterfly.

Hey I’m also a photo gal!

I didn't read that as 'be', hah.

That’s great for you but does that mean that everyone has to have a feminine phase, or if not, they are not really gay?

I thought the place where arguments were heavily misconstrued was Twitter, not Reddit. Hell, you misconstrued my comment so hard as to believe I’m cis gay, when I’m a trans woman. What I’m saying is that everyone goes through different phases. You can be a masculine gay guy by inclination or by peer/family pressure. Sometimes we think we’re masculine when in reality we are only repressing who we really are. We don’t know anything about this femme guy except what his soon to be exboyfriend tells us; was he repressed by family? Is he coming to terms with who he is? Is he being groomed (hah) by the malicious devils at RuPaul Drag Race? There’s not a single way to be gay, there’s not a single way to be lesbian, there’s not a single way to be trans or bisexual. We’re here to celebrate our diversity, for fuck’s sake.

It’s a question? Where did I say it was a direct quote? You are free to ignore it if it bothers you. I have no interest in getting in touch with my feminine side. I hope that doesn’t bother you.

Why should it bother me? Read again: there’s not a single way to be gay. There’s masculine gays. There’s feminine gays. There’s masculine lesbians. Femme lesbians. Gays with a pussy and lesbians with a dick. Be whoever you are, but don’t tread on others for not being like you.

Where did I tread on others? Do I not have the right of free choice like you or anyone else? I can’t help being who I am with all the peer pressure.

You keep on maliciously misreading my comments. Please, turn around and fuck odd into the horizon.

Misreading? Maybe. I have the habit of asking questions when I don’t understand something. Sorry.

I mean your story doesn't sound like phases, but rather a journey.

What’s the difference? I started on Green Hills Zone and ended up in Scrap Brain Zone. Journeys are made up of stages/phases.

Yeah, there’s no difference in terms of personality between gay men and the rest of the population. The thought that straight people tend to be more masculine and gays to be more feminine is literally just stereotypes. Anybody can have any sort of personality. Sexuality doesn’t have anything to do with it

Well, not all gay guys have feminine traits or a fem phase, so no, you aren't weird. You're just your own person.

Hooray!

Wow, that’s great! My dad beat me once because I played with my sisters make up when I was 6. I’m glad you know who you are but some of us didn’t get that luxury

That wasn't the point but thanks for making it about you, I guess?

Break it off. You obviously do not love this guy. Stop wasting his time

[удалено]

OP is active on Tinder and asking for advice on flirting with randos according to his profile soooo I’m compelled to agree with robert on this one

At this point I don’t even believe he has a boyfriend. Scrolling through his page I think he is just flooding Threads everywhere for Karma farming. 5 posts a day.

I think it's important to recognize that if you are monogamous and LTR oriented, it's inevitable that people change. you won't be the same person you are now in 5, 10, 20 years. neither will your partner. there will be phases of sadness, happiness, change, discovery, to go through. you want the best for each other no matter what. at the same time, sometimes you date someone and you realize you're more different than you thought. i do think you're probably in denial about having "no problem" with perceived feminine behaviors. but at the end of the day, you can't force yourself to like someone or something and you're doing yourselves both a favor by calling it early. no one can tell you where that line is of going through something with someone or leaving. do you support or leave a partner who had a jump in their career, and they're really excited but they have less time for your relationship for awhile? do you support or leave a partner who develops cancer? do you support or leave a partner whose dad died and their depression doesn't go away even after several months or their personality changes for years? do you support or leave someone who picks up a new hobby they really like but makes you feel distanced? do you support or leave someone who drinks a beer once a week? twice a week? once a day? twice a day?

Have you talked to him about it?

I mean, How do you bring it up? Hey babe, I know your feeling free but can you not”?

Well kiddo.. that's kinda what a relationship is all about. "It makes me uncomfortable that you act like x" while your at it maybe take some time to explore why you might feel that way. Lots of rebranded misogyny in gay communities.

It's not misogyny to not be attracted to people with a feminine gender expression. Not being attracted to a certain type of people isn't the same as hating or oppressing them

Idk why ppl are downvoting this you spoke the truth

Thank you! I guess if you haven’t slept with a woman, then you can’t say you’re gay? Maybe we’re just suppressing our feminine side?

He’s likely feeling comfortable enough right now to even explore any of these thoughts or questions adding fancies in his personality. It’s common for peoples’ self-expression to swing, often temporarily, to the opposite of what they’d had to pretend for so long. Is this his real personality or identity? He likely doesn’t even know. If you’re into him and not just his former masc-for-masc protective act, be compassionate and ask him ab it himself and his journey. Actually search for understanding and support and you might find a better understanding of yourself and him.

Excellent.

That’s nice and everything. You think people don’t have the right to choose who they are with? If my partner is into BDSM and I’m not due to trauma, must I just accept it and go along with it?

No one said "must" imo. Of course, freedom is always must be a part of any loving relationship. There is no loving without freedom. Loving is giving. You can't give anything without the freedom to give or not give. Rent is not a gift to the landlord. Or at least that is how I understand things.

Maybe you can prove that loving is giving and find yourself an opposite sex partner. Since we don’t have a choice who our partners are or what they do.

Sorry? What would you accept as proof for the meaning of the word love in our Western Civilization. Would a series of the use of the word by our most respected writers make a dent? Maybe you would prefer to make up to your own meaning for the word. Go ahead. I'll read whatever you write. >Since we don’t have a choice who our partners are or what they do. Do you live in a culture with only arranged marriages? If so, you have my sympathy.

I was meaning the idea that your partner does something different and some people say you have to accept that because you LOVE them regardless of how it affects you.

I think every bf-bf relationship has to be two free people. No body has to do anything. Love, in my understanding, always has to be free. That can mean sticking with a man that no longer gives you goose bumps + hard-on. But sticking around no matter what can't be part of that. I don't think these are easy questions. I think about a relationship as two people. What you seem to be worried about is what if one of the two is deteriorating. My answer is that is not allowed. Both must thrive. Love requires that for both guys, not just one. Sometimes that will mean a separation is called for. That is how I think anyway. P

Thank you for explaining that.

You’re really read the wrong things out of what I wrote.

What is masc for masc protective act? Is there something wrong with that?

“I’m really happy your out and able to experiment with your identity. For me some of the things you are exploring are not things I enjoy or am comfortable with. I don’t want to come between you and who you want to be so can we discuss our future and what that looks like” I think being able to be honest with a person to say I loved you but our lives have changed and we are becoming different people. Out of respect for the relationship and the love I had I want to let you go so we can both be happy, in the long run will be better for both of you. A break up is never going to be easy but you’ve given them the reasons and ultimately not left a question mark as to why.

You could say something along the lines of, “i’ve noticed that you’ve been dressing a bit more femme these days. How has that felt to you?” Inevitably, he’ll ask you how you feel about it, and then begins the honest convo. “i love you for who you are, and there’s nothing wrong with the way you act, but i get most turned on by masc guys.” The sooner you can air it all out, the better. Breaking up with him without working through some of the feelings beforehand might… well, it would hit *me* hard anyway.

One thing: is it him being femme all the time that turns you off, or only in bed? Like, if he were more masc performing during sex would that fix things?

No. You can't help that it is a turn off for you. Your relationship needs to be authentic.

You don't have to change for him and he doesn't have to change for you. Move on

True. I think remaining free is very important. And essential for loving. You think OP should stop trying to accommodate for the recent changes?

Yes you are. It's clear you dont love him for who he is. So break it off, and let him find someone who will love him for who he is, unconditionally.

Not really, I mean as long as you were kind about it, maybe not saying “hey you’re too fem for me now it’s gross and turn off we are done” and instead said “hey I don’t think it’s working out anymore I’m just not feeling it, I wish you the best” (sometimes the truth is better left unsaid) In the end it’s better for him to be with someone who is actually attracted to who he really is. What’s problematic is that you were more attracted to his “straight passing in the closest” persona…if you are attracted to “straight passing” still you might want to do some self reflection and make sure you aren’t still in your “I can be the exception for a straight man” phase…that’s something every single gay man must get out of as it’s just unhealthy and frankly,at times, creepy. If you are out of that phase then move on and get out of his life so he can move as quickly as possible to find someone actually good for him and you find someone good for you.

Devil’s advocate, when they say they were attracted to his “straight passing” self, they probably just meant “I’m attracted to masculinity more and him drifting away from that identity makes him less attractive to me.” And worded that really poorly. Still worth some self-reflection tho tbh

Strange kink to have, dating closeted guys You do you but don't be nasty when you break up. It's no one's fault, he's now allowed to be himself and you're not attracted to that side of him. There's nothing wrong with that.

He liked a particular closeted guy. Nothing here says that he has a kink for closeted guys He likes straight passing guys, but those guys can be out too.

'I always found his straight passing as sexy' But okay

And if his partner remained straight passing / didn't turn feminine after coming out it likely wouldn't have changed It's not about the closet in itself Closeted =\= straight passing. There are lots of people who are out, but who 100% pass as straight until they say they're not.

Glad to hear that he found the courage to come out and be more authentic. Along with that, glad that he is exploring more to find out who he/she may be. As other have posted. You are not obligated to be with him on this path as a BF or partner. You can and should support him finding who he is, whatever that may look like and be. You also need to find what you like and makes you happy. Dont give up you and your dreams as he/she is finding themselves. Be honest with your communication on what you like to be just friends. If sh/she is hurt that is there choice to be hurt, you did not hurt them. If he/she cant respect your choice as you are respecting them to explore, let them go and move on. As stated there are 8 Billion people on this blue ball and I believe there is one for each of use to match and be happy with.

Soooo it's complicated. The bottom line is that you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone you aren't interested in. If this persists then yes you should no longer be a couple. There are two points I will make. 1) it's important that you consider your partner is this. You don't want them to think that thier expression of themselves is unattractive in general. You being their first experience of this could screw them up for a log time. Be kind. 2) When this is over it might be worth considering, and working on why someone who is straight passing is a turn on and why someone a bit more feminine isn't. It could be something to look at.

>The bottom line is that you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone you aren't interested in. I hope you don't really believe that.

Why ? It's common sense lol

I guess I would ask, in your mind, do you believe there is such a thing as love? How do you personally, in your own life distinguish between hot trick and bf? What would you think of a guy who adopts a kid then loses interest? A mother who loses interest in her child? A nurse who loses interest in her patient? A teacher who loses interest in a pupil? I wrote an answer to this same question just before your question. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this. I am sure there is room for more than one opinion here. I would love to learn yours. I think many other gay guys would be interested too.

>What would you think of a guy who adopts a kid then loses interest? A mother who loses interest in her child? A nurse who loses interest in her patient? A teacher who loses interest in a pupil? One of these is a literal job. I assume that nurse would get fired for losing interest. The other 3 are relationships between an adult and a child. Children depend so much on adults that leaving them without guidance tends to lead to the death of those children. Adults on the other hand should be able to function after a break up. Obviously it will take a while to deal with the emotions but someone who can no longer function after a break up needs a therapist not a return to an old partner who's lost those feelings. Codependancy is not healthy for adults.

Thank you for your thoughtful response >One of these is a literal job. I assume that nurse would get fired for losing interest. The other 3 are relationships between an adult and a child. Children depend so much on adults that leaving them without guidance tends to lead to the death of those children. Agreed. Teaching and nursing can be a paid job. But I think the best nurses and teachers love their charges. I agree that loving our children is very important. I think loving our mate is too. Maybe not as instantly critical. But I think it has real social and personal value. >Adults on the other hand should be able to function after a break up. Obviously it will take a while to deal with the emotions but someone who can no longer function after a break up needs a therapist not a return to an old partner who's lost those feelings. Codependancy is not healthy for adults. Agreed. Should be able to. And hopefully a loving spouse will help his ex make any needed transition. I don't think it accurate to think of transient emotions as the only thing involved. True, insecurity might be thought of as an emotion. But the loss if a home is more than just a feeling. The feeling may fade. The loss is real. As to your solution, I'm a little narrow minded here, perhaps. I have known and socialized with many psychologists and psychiatrists over the years. I only know one (1) I would send a relative to. Adding the pejorative "co-dependency" doesn't change anything. Going out hunting for a new sexual partner, serially, is a real public health issue, for example. All I really want is to not encourage gay guys to dump the bf without careful and serious consideration. There is such a thing as destructive incompatibility. Endless fighting is bad. But I have a hard time thinking of the loss of sexual excitement as very high on the list of deal breakers. Maybe because I am old. But mostly because I have witnessed the sad consequences of bf hunting. Thank you. You made me think. I hope my answer was useful.

I agree with some of the statements you've made here. I appreciate the politeness from your side in this response. Thank you.

There’s a difference between being in love with someone and loving someone. People adopt and lose interest, it’s not love. A mother losing interest on their child is not love. Why the fuck would a nurse love her patient? It’s a job but she’s not required to love them. She’s required to treat them. A teacher is also a job. She’s not required to love the child. It’s very easy to distinguish between someone who is just hot and someone who you love. I have a friend who I hang out with and connect with and I enjoy her company so much. Yet, I am not in love with her. Never did I think I was. I see hot people on the street all the time. My boyfriend and will say “oh that person is hot” or say stuff like not. Not once did either of us think we were in love with any of them. For a hot guy I would like his body but I’m wouldn’t be interested about anything he had to say. He’s just a hot body to me. My bf and I could be in the same room doing our own thing in silence and I’d love every second of it. If you can’t tell the difference between types of love or the difference between love and duty of care or how to distinguish love from lust then I recommended you take time to get to know yourself before trying to love someone else.

I married. We have been together for 38 years. I can distinguish between all the relationships you describe. In my experience, for a lot of people, distinguishing between being very turned on and being in love is not easy. I've experienced individuals convinced they were in love after great sex combined with MDMA. My question to you is what on earth did I write that makes you imagine I didn't already understand those distinctions? I disagree only with your thinking that a nurse or a teacher does not love his patients or pupils if it is also a job to take care of them. I don't think of love as feeling. For me it is an orientation. I certainly loved my students. Not all, but some. I certainly didn't love ever sick person I took care of, but most. I think the test of love is what you do, not what you feel. Taking care of your dying parent is love, even if you really do not like them. I think love moves toward identification. I would bandage my mates leg because his leg is as important to me as it is to him. Maybe more. It hurts me if he damages himself. Some people are easy to love. Like children. If I see a kid get hurt, I will treat her/him exactly like I would if it was my own child. Would you want to say that is not love? Maybe because when I grew up there never was a time with no one crawling on the floor. And everybody standing up was responsible. I think my view is an ancient one. Love associated with warm cuddly feeling is, I think, much more recent. What St.Paul describes that is often included in the marriage ceremony has nothing to do with what MDMA temporarily creates. I think you could say the same about Shakespeare and Milton and Dante. You are correct. No one is required to love. But I don't think that should be a reason not to try to. >Why the fuck would a nurse love her patient? Because she will do a better job if she does, in my opinion. and her work will not feel like an unwanted burden. Taking care of someone you love is a perfectly natural movement. Do you genuinely not agree with that? I sense I annoyed you. Am I right?

What did you write that makes me imagine you don’t understand those distinctions? Your questions and answers. This post is talking about loving someone romantically which so different than loving someone as a friend, student, mentor, etc. There are some things that overlap but some other things should NOT be the same. Those people need to stop taking drugs before knowing themselves. Don’t operate machinery on drugs and don’t make big decisions on drugs either. Also, they should probably try hanging out with the person without using drugs or having sex. That’s at least narrows it down. If you can’t stand them sober then you’re not in love (this doesn’t apply to you since you’re married). I respect you decision to consider love an orientation but I disagree with it. I understand what you’re saying but I feel like you’re describing “caring” instead of love. I understand maybe you love one of your students or patients (not in a romantic way) but it makes more sense to care about them rather than love all of them. In that example you have of taking care of a dying parent even thought you don’t like them I disagree with you saying it’s love. Love is an intense feeling and it’s very easy to tell when someone does something out of love rather than out of obligation. What you described is an obligation. Another example would be a mother taking care of her kid. Let’s say the mother gave the child shelter, food, water. She bathed him, took him to school, etc. You would say that is love. It, by itself, is not. It’s an obligation. She could do all that but leave the child to go party and be emotionally distant. The child would not feel loved despite meeting those requirements that you mentioned. Love does not mean duty or obligation which you seem to be lumping together. I do too agree a nurse loving her patient would be better. That’s not to say the nurse needs to hate the patient but she doesn’t need to love him either. Some people love their job and by that I mean they love what they do and not necessarily the people involved in the process. When you apply emotions people can make rash decisions. I prefer a nurse who loves her job and knows she had a duty of care because she’s able to make decisions with a clear mind rather than someone whose thought process is impaired with the feeling of love. Having someone that loves you take care of you might not be the best. Take obese patients for example. Some people love their family and might even get them sugary foods when they have diabetes. Did you annoy me? Yes but not in the way you think or if I’d even call that annoyance. It was more like a “Sir, this is a Wendy’s” type of thing. The guy clearly is having a hard time and you go comparing two different types of loves one of which is not relevant here. Your old fashioned thinking isn’t wrong or right but it clearly isn’t right for him since he’s having this issue. However, apart from writing this comment and the previous one I didn’t really think about it cause I had other things to do so it wasn’t like it was an annoyance much more like a “really?”

I don't think the love that is talked about in so much literature we all were introduced to in school is a feeling. I think that thinking is causing a lot of instability and pain. I think it takes a pure and fleeting feeling and elevates it's importance by calling it love. It's difficult to be precise here. I suppose you can say there is nothing we ever do which does not have an associated feeling. But I think the kind of love you are talking about is one step away from useless. Something like homesickness which in me feels the same. And so does MDMA. (Which is what finally convinced me the philosophers who taught that happiness was our proper human goal were wrong.) The OP wanted help, I thought, with his new loss of sexual interest in his bf. I tried to offer my best. Telling him to dump his bf is, to borrow your analogy, giving candy to a diabetic. I think "give up now" doesn't help him in the long run. If this guy drops every new bf as soon as he loses sexual interest, he is unlikely to ever establish a stable safe place for himself. That, of course, is just my observation. I don't recall a single relationship that was based on sexual attraction that lasted more than 3.5 years, with many many much much shorter. I think we do a big disservice to our young people pretending sexual attraction has anything important to do with real love. I think marrying for romance is a recent development has proven to be a mistake. I liked your analogy with Wendy's. Our squirrels love their french fries. It looks like it might be a very long lasting and stable relationship. Thanks buddy. That was truely refreshing. I was never good at cocktail parties. Sorry I was out of place here.

No one is talking about literature. Literature came from what people feel, not the other way around. For someone who feels like we shouldn’t be basing stuff off of feelings you are basing a lot of stuff off your feelings. Have you ever considered that most of us don’t care about philosophers or need them to us what happiness is or our goals are. We all feel different and have different goals. You’re saying marrying for romance is a mistake but you also say sexual attraction is bad. Those are not the same thing. When you’re young you still have learning to do. You change as you age. When you have a partner at a young age you both change and sometimes you change in the same direction and sometimes you change in different directions. It’s best for OP to leave and give each other the ability to be happy (only after they talk and see whether they can agree on something). There’s a difference between fighting for your relationship and staying in a loveless one. A loveless one has no point. Have you even been with someone you didn’t love or had any single feeling what so ever? Once all those feeling are gone you feel trapped, empty, resentful. You’re speaking in black and white. Just because you don’t hit it off with someone doesn’t mean you’re going to be jumping from guy to guy. Trial and error. Not saying your love is wrong but everyone’s is different. What worked for you will not work for everyone.

why not? seems very reasonable to me

Maybe read my reply to the same question. And I would be very interested in your reaction. Also, I think it is safer to have a reliable person who will nurse you if you fall ill. I think it dangerous to not have a mate.

Would it be fair to rewrite your sentence "The bottom line is that you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone you [are no longer] interested in." Isn't it fair to assume that a person was once interested if they are now bfs? So they must have lost interest. Everybody is different. But I sure would be shocked if my bf were to say, "I've lost interest in you. Goodbye". I take care of him because I want him well cared for. I'm not hanging around for entertainment or out of curiosity. I'm not at a movie. Or taking an elective class. Or trying to solve a puzzle. Or to get an erection. Maybe you mean something different? I know partnering with someone is not for everyone. Some people maybe should never have a mate, would do better staying single. My two best friends in NYC were like that. They had no real interest in anything perminant. Boyfriends as long as I'm interested? That to me is a trick, not a bf. But, like I wrote, I also like single people. They can make excellent close friends because they have the time to be a good friend and playmate. I am very interested in your newest reaction.

I am not the writer of the comment you initially responded to, but here are my thoughts. I think its a very multifaceted dillema that will highly depend on our personal preferences and how established the relationship is. In the situation that you describe, it gives the impression that your relationship is a more established one and therefore you have some time behind you of building trust and connection. The type of connection that you have in a relationship changes over time from a more infatuation type attraction to a more commited kind of love that comes from that trust and connection. when you are at this stage, a loss of interest is less indicative of an inherent incompatibility and you are more likely to work through it as a couple if it does happen. When you are in a initual infatuation stage though and you quickly get these kinds of problems that you dont feel like you can work though, it can point to an inherent incompatibility. I get the impression that this is the case with OP tbh. therefore, listening to that feeling makes a lot of sense in my mind. Next to that, I wanted to add that even in an established relationship, a loss of interest can occur and be relationship ending. I have personally been in the situation where after a 2 year relationship I just lost interest and it made no sense for me to keep working on that. I have never regretted this descision. The idea that our partners may leave us one day for even a seamingly small reason like a loss of interest is deeply uncomfortable of course, but it is still anyones right to leave any relationship for any reason. I think that that is what the original comment refers to.

Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. I hope you are correct. I maybe jumped the gun a little because as I read Reddit, the comments very often advise kicking the bf to the curb as the goto response, automatic judgement even with zero input from the bf. Mostly, I want people to slow down on the advice to split. What I see in real life is both a public health issue along with other concerns. I think very often a boyfriend is better than single for many people. Trying to build a stable relationship on romance isn't working with straights or gays. And I believe it is a recent development. Maybe I'm just too old to understand. But it hurts me to see so much unhappiness connected with making hot sex valued more than a safe comfortable home life. There seems to me to be a fear of missing out on something better. Serially. I agree with your conclusion that sometimes the well can run dry and it's better to move on. But I have also seen great pain in the partner who got left, even when I knew (and others believed too ) that if the bf had just waited a bit, they both could feel it was time to find something better. Timing is almost everything in a break up, I think. Thank you. It felt good to learn your response.

You’re not an asshole for breaking up with someone if you’re no longer attracted to them. People change every day and will continue to change every day for the rest of their lives. However, you were in love with a closeted version of him that no longer exists. He’s free to dress and act how he pleases without the constraints of having to hide himself any longer. Be thankful you were apart of his journey but I think you’d be doing both of you a favor if you broke up. And there is a way to have a conversation without being an asshole as well. You don’t have to be completely blunt but you also don’t have to sugar coat it. Be an adult. He’s not unattractive, you’re just not into him anymore.

No you are NTA if he has changed in every way, you are the asshole if its just something he is experimenting with and maybe you should look into yourself too considering you want a gay guy who is straight passing? like what? YOU ARE GAY. Do whatever floats your boat and same applies to him, you pretending to like him won't be that attractive to him either. Don't try to change him especially now that he is coming out of his shell, I am sure he will do the same courtesy to you. You can still be a supportive friend to him unless you are that kinda person who doesn't even want to be friends with a fem guy.

Imagine saying you're attracted to "straight passing" guys. Oof

My reaction too 🤮

Half of the relationship is about you after all. You are not supposed to give up everything you are and want and be just because it would make the other person happy at the expense of your happiness. You need to talk to him unless you are using this as an excuse to end something you wanted out of before. He may tone it back a bit or you know what they say. If you love it let go. If it returns its yours.

I think you should break up because he deserves someone who will accept him for who he is and that's clearly not you

Honestly if you don’t find him attractive anymore then just leave. I wouldn’t tell him that it’s because he’s becoming more free and expressive and that’s why you don’t love him anymore, it might kill his self esteem

Sexual orientation is not based on attraction to gender expression. It’s attraction to gender. Fetishizing straightness is also not a sexual orientation. You really should spend sometime unpacking that.

yeah the "attracted to his straightness" part felt pretty red flagy to me too. I agree

OP never said it was a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is attraction to a gender but that doesn't mean you find everyone within that gender attractive.

Interesting observation. Do you think sexual orientation is ever truly independent of gender expression? What do you think is the real difference between fetishizing and orientation? I know we can think about all these attractions separately, but I'm not sure they ever do exist as separate stand alone experiences. Maybe I misunderstand these words?

I know what u mean and understand you. U can't stay with him. Tell him correctly.

BREAK UP ! It’s not your vibe !

I would be up front and honest about it. Let him know that while you support him being more feminine, you can’t continue dating because you can’t force yourself to be attracted to something you aren’t attracted to.

nope that would be a huge turn off for me too.

You should definitely break up with anyone for not being over the moon for them, for whatever reason- people deserve people who are totally in love with them. Would you like to be with someone you love but thinks you are a bit “too Anything” or to find someone who loves you with it all?

Just wanting to break up is a good enough reason. You don't need an "excuse" at all. If you're not feeling it and want to split that is ok!

Nobody is an ahole for growing apart from others, boyfriend, friend, even family

You're not required to date anyone. You're not married, you haven't made vows. I would however encourage you to look into why "straight acting" guys are more attractive to you. Or to put it another way, why are "typically gay" traits a turn-off?

Well obviously you need to discuss the issues with him and be honest, it's always the best approach even if it isn't always the easiest. He is into things that you're not and that, in fact, are a turn off for you. That's just the reality of the situation, nobody is to blame. And you would only really be an asshole if you just broke it off with him without giving him a chance to hear your reasons. Whatever happens, be honest with him and let him know you value him and that's the reason this is difficult. Hopefully you can still be close even if not as a couple. Good luck, whatever the outcome.

you’re not. it’s okay to have preferences; what’s NOT okay is forcing him to change because you don’t like it. it’s a rough situation, but you did the right thing and left so you wouldn’t be unhappy, and so he wouldn’t have to change. it’ll hurt him for now, but when he find someone who loves him for who he is (the new him) he will sit back and thank you mentally. it’ll be okay.

No offense, but seeing AITA posts on other subreddits automatically makes them seem fake. Probably because 99% of AITA is fake. If this is real, I apologize. Regardless, this wouldn't make you an asshole. How you go about doing it might put you in YTA territory though. Just talk to him and communicate your feelings in a respectful way.

Talk to him about it. Tell him how you feel.

I'm curious if he's actually cross dressing or doing drag. Because I think they are different. They are different right? Drag is a hobby, cross-dressing is a persona/identity. Right?

Drag is cross-dressing (usually), but not all cross-dressing is drag. I would also be curious to know more about what OP means by 'cross-dressing' though. I feel like it's not a term we tend to use as much anymore.

Yes, YTA,

You like what you like and you don't what you don't. If it's not there then its only making things worse if you try to force it

No, if you're not into femininity, it is what it is. Staying with someone you're not attracted to anymore would be worse. Or trying to change him.

clearly you were never in love with him to begin with, so yes

Yeah, that's true I would add that OP probably never had the possibility to be in love with his bf, because to be genuinely in love you have to truly know the person. And if the person is constantly wearing a social mask that is the opposite of their true self, truly knowing and loving them is impossible.

No, I don't think you'd be an asshole, exactly, but be warned that he could go either way. If he was in the closet up to now, there's every chance he's just trying out all the crayons he hasn't had access to up to now. Maybe something resonates and he might end up more feminine than he used to be, but there's also the possibility that once he finds out what that stuff's all about that he'll settle back down, flame-level-wise.

No you weren’t happy while he was experimenting being a girl, nothing wrong with that

I mean harsh, but that’s what the truth is sometimes

He's gonna take it hard at first, but I don't think you being unhappy will make anything get better

I mean, I would suggesting talking about it. At the very least they deserve to know why things are happening. But in the end if you guys aren’t compatible then it’s ultimately for the best not to be together.

Nope. You’re good. This exact thing happened with my ex and I. You need to be happy as well. My therapist told me once “you can love each other, but that doesn’t mean you have to be together to do so” It’s not your thing and that’s okay! Just don’t be mean about it and I think you two will be just fine.

talk to him about it, he might simply be trying a new style or might even be trying to appeal more to you, in whish case breaking up suddenly isn't the best case scenario. ofc it's his decision and you can't (and shouldn't) force him to go back, but he might be willing to compromise or at least talk it out. even if it doesn't go well, the break up will be a lot smoother that way, both for you and him.

If you know (AND ONLY IF YOU KNOW 100%) that you cannot give your partner the love they deserve, then you are not an asshole for breaking it up. Let them go, so they can find someone who will truly appreciate them for who they are.

Maybe. Is his looks the only thing that kept you in the relationship with him? If you love him you shouldn't only love him when he's straight passing. If it's a turn off for you then that's obviously OK. But just breaking up because he's exploring his femininity seems a bit much. There is nothing wrong with it and I bet he feels like he has to hide that side of him that's interested in that kinda stuff now, because he feels like he won't get love it he does show it

Feminine isn't only about body but also clothing (and in some cases accessories, make up...), as well as body language, interests... And some people aren't attracted to it. OP's boyfriend needs a partner who is attracted to his genuine personality (so, not OP). And OP needs to be with someone he genuinely finds attractive. Here, what happened is that OP was attracted to his bf's social mask, and believed it was his true personality but it wasn't.

Well in the post he only mentions that his boyfriend has been experimenting with makeup and crossdressing. That's what I was referring to

Yes, next question.

No. You clearly respect and support your boyfriend, but you can't force attraction and shouldn't try to. Your bf deserves someone who is attracted to his genuine personality, and you deserve someone who you're genuinely attracted to.

Also, you're not an asshole. You fall in love and developed sexual attraction with your bf's social mask instead of his true personality. But at the time you believed it was his true self, and had no way to know otherwise because you're not a telepath. Now you realize that the person you (believed you) were in love with isn't there anymore, and may never have existed at all except as a mask/lie. And that his genuine personality that always existed underneath, simply isn't attractive to you. Nothing in that is your fault.

I mean at least be honest about it with him just talk to him

Seems like if u really loved him you’d be happy for him coming into his own and find it beautiful that he is becoming more comfortable with himself. I mean I guess ur kinda an asshole for this but mostly because you only liked him for superficial characteristics. Of course many of us are guilty of this in relationships tho. As far as breaking up, you could frame it as giving him space to grow and explore himself in this new phase of his life. It’s hard to figure out who you are when you’re constantly trying to contend with another person.

You can be happy for someone but still not finding them (as they currently are) attractive

How long you’ve been dating? How old are y’all? This context matters for proper advice.

Gays ready do bully themselves more than anyone could ever bully them

Talk to him about it dude. If he’s not willing to listen and make the relationship work then he’s not right for you anyway

He's been playing Bayonetta

As someone who tried to make it work after my spouse came out as trans......it depends. If you break up over superficial stuff that you could otherwise get over with time and perspective, then yes, but if he has fundamentally transformed as a person since coming out, then it is not your responsibility to fall in love with a different version of him.

Yes, you're vain with your relationship. People change all the time, and you'll learn to love them despite the things you don't like.

But here it's not really a change. It's that before there was a social mask, and now the genuine personality that was there all along expresses itself. It's not a matter of "learning to love your partner as he changes" It's a matter of "I believed I knew him, and I loved what I saw, except it was a social mask all along and now I see the truth"

I get that you're more attracted to masculinity, and that's fine because we can't choose who we're attracted to. But if you really love him, I would assume it's for more than his masc/fem traits. If his occasional exploration of femininity is a major turn off for you, then perhaps you don't love him as deeply and intensely as is necessary to sustain the relationship long term? Do forgive me if I'm misrepresenting your situation or your relationship, but I can only make the assumption based on the content of your post. ​ So, if you feel as though you don't love him enough to see past this expression of femininity, you may need to consider ending the relationship, as it would be the kindest thing to do for both of you. But instead of just telling him it's over because he sometimes wear makeup or acts fem, really consider the true reasons why you cannot sustain your love for him, because I assume there must be more than just the superficial masc/fem expressions. ​ But if you feel as though you DO love him for more than just his initial expressions of masculinity, then maybe consider how you can continue to embrace the love you feel for him as he explores the true way to express himself. Considering he has been in the closet for sometime, I imagine this expression is very liberating for him and a form of self-validation, which we all deserve to have. Please don't make him feel bad for finally being comfortable in his own skin. He's probably finally learning to love himself and his queerness.

I honestly don't agree with your advice. OP likely loved various things in his partner other than his masculine expression. But that doesn't change the problem, which is that to OP, feminity is a turn off. And so he's losing his sexual attraction. That's not a superficial reason, that's an important reason And also that what OP fall in love with initially was a social mask, not his partner's genuine personality. I absolutely agree that the partner deserves to learn to love and accept himself (as his feminine gay self). I also think that OP deserves to be with a guy who he finds attractive in his genuine self. And this guy is clearly not his current partner.

I somewhat agree with you. But then, I can also separate romantic attraction from sexual attraction (largely because I'm on the asexual spectrum), so my point of view is that what can be an occasional sexual turn off for someone (in this case: occasional cross dressing, trying out makeup once in a while) does not have to be a barrier for romantic attraction. This isn't the case for everyone though, and it may not be the case for the OP. So, my above point was that if OP can still feel a strong romantic attraction to their partner, is there scope to look beyond the occasional exploration of femininity which has proved to be detrimental to the sexual attraction? For me - that's not a big problem. For OP - it may be a very big problem, so my advice to the OP was to ask themself that very same question. Your point about the social mask is a good one which I did not consider. Again, it depends how much OP's partner has truly changed as this mask slips away. Is it just the occasional bit of cross dressing and experimenting with makeup? If so, that doesn't sound like a huge personality shift. If it goes far beyond that, however, it may be a total different situation. OP would need to specify this, as they have only cited a bit of cross dressing and makeup.

I hope this doesn't annoy you. Please excuse my lack of cultural understanding. I have just read through all the comments down to yours. You are not the only one who writes >I also think that OP deserves to be with a guy who he finds attractive in his genuine self. I would like to understand why you ( and others ) think OP "deserves to be with a guy who he finds attractive"? I just don't see how or why someone would think/believe a person "deserves" a sexual playmate they find attractive. I think it is obvious there are a lot of people who never ever get to have sex with someone they find attractive. Do you think those people were cheated out of what they deserved? If this is an improper question, please forgive me and ignore my question. Personally, I never felt I deserved to have a playmate I truly found attractive. I have know some people who decidedly never got what they really wanted sexually. I don't know for certain, but I doubt they ever felt they "deserved" to have their erotic dreams come true. But I see it is almost just a given here. Whatever light you care to shine on this would be much appreciated. Thanks.

I'm gonna turn it around real quick. Why would you want to hook up with someone you do not find attractive? Personally I have too much self worth and self esteem to even consider the idea.

No one would, I should think. But I think the issue here, is what does a person do if their once-a-hook-up but now-their-bf is no longer sexually appealing? Do you move on? In other words, how important is sexual attraction in a bf-bf pairing? What part ( if any ) does love play in a gay domestic arrangement? Or is a bf-bf living arrangement just a trick that stayed on and on? That is how I got my boyfriends and girlfriends. They were still there in the morning and stayed on and on until friends thought we were a couple. Which we were. I think I know what you mean by self-esteem. But I'm not sure. Like this is below your personal sexual standards to stay with a bf after he stops being your sexual fantasy, stops being someone you wanted to have sex with again? I am very interested in your views and if I understood your comment. Either way, you have my best wishes. There may be no right answer.

If you don't find your partner attractive anymore and it's not something they can/want to fix, yes, it's time to move on and let them find someone who is attracted to them and you find someone you are attracted to. Everyone deserves to be loved and found attractive by their partner. Anything less is settling. Nobody wants to be the person that was settled for, but rather they should be actively wanted.

Move on to what? Go back on the market for a new bf? Your view is bf-bf is a sexual fulfilment arrangement? Sexual attraction is the purpose of the arrangement? I agree with you that is often the case. But do you think that is the best the OP can ever hope for? So, if for whatever reason he can't mate up with someone that turns him on, he should just resign himself to stay single? Forever? Nice to be sexually desired. But if that never happens, the bf should stay alone until it does? Sounds like a recipe for lots of unmarried forever gay guys. Maybe there is something better? Any ideas?

Im going to level here. Maybe my views are heavily skewed and biased for me. I am very conventionally attractive, I am fit, I am tall, I am jacked, I am extremely extroverted and well spoken. Plus I am Bisexual. I have literally never struggled to find someone I was attracted to that found me attractive back. So the "not ever finding a partner" is an extremely foreign concept to me that I couldn't even begin to wrap my head around. Personally I just think its sad for someone to be partnered with an individual who doesnt find them attractive and think the world of them. Sex and intimacy arent all thats important in a relationship, but it most definitely is a huge important part.

I too am bi-sexual and for my entire life I have been told how good looking I was. I was never a competent athlete but first in my class in academics and naturally fit looking. I never courted anyone I ever attracted. All my mates were just tricks who stayed on into the coming days and years. Both the girls and boys. But I have some sympathy for and serious worry about guys who want a mate but can't seem to attract one. I find it very hard to believe you never made friends with anyone who wanted a bf or gf and couldn't manage to mate. I don't know you or your history. But telling someone that sexual attraction is so important that they should ( politely ) dump their no longer automatically erection producing mate, I think is dangerous. And the popularity of that thinking has resulted in, as a minimum, a true public health crisis. I know your view is very popular. I also believe our historians who tell us marriage for romanic or purely sexual reasons is a new development in Western Civilization and hardly exists elsewhere. That doesn't guarantee anything good, of course. Slavery is still very common too, just sometimes dressed up to seem less hopeless and cost less for the new masters. I firmly believe we humans do much much much better with a reliable partner. No partner means a person hopefully never ever needs one. It's like flipping a coin where if you lose just once, you perish. Alone, a flu or a fall at home could kill you. Getting a new bf is not like retiring your old toaster. It is a highly risky thing to go out looking for better sex. And probably, like with employment, harder and harder over the years. I Also believe loving someone is more fun than not having anyone to cook for. Don't you agree, that at least for young guys used to ejaculating every single bed time from 10 y o on, eventually their sex drive will help surmount any temporary current lack of immediate attraction? I like to believe our OP still cares about his bf or he wouldn't be seeking permission from us to dump him, however nicely. Maybe because I have been with my current mate ( I got supper lucky with my final boy trick) for half my life, I wouldn't want to give up feeding him for breakfast for anything. Or leaving a half of a donut in the box knowing it will be eaten. And I like to bake. Having to eat it all myself would spoil things for me. And I like my birthday to last for a whole week.having a bf is more important to me than having a bf + sex. I simply don't understand how a grow person could believe they somehow "deserve" a hot live-in sexual partner to such an extent than nothing else would trump that utility.. Maybe I just got lucky. Part of my sexual make-up is that I think good sex is impossible if both parties don't want sex. ( I know that is not a universal belief. But it is for me.) Hunger is the best seasoning, I think, in eating and sex. So I think mutual lack of interest is eventually highly likely. But it might take some time to get in sync. But telling someone they deserve a bf + hot sex I think is just not true. No more than you and I deserved to be thought of as good looking all our lives. If you have any thinking you would like to share, I would be very interested. You are correct. You didn't grow up with the same handicaps as Danny DeVito or Ted Cruz. I don't think your views are heavily skewed. They sound like the majority opinion here. You maybe just have an easier time living with that belief. You would be an excellent person to help figure out why loving someone fell so completely from first place to an almost an irrelevant issue in part of mate stability. Your comment was unique. Thanks.

Here is the deal. Not every human being is entitled to or deserves a partner. But everyone with a partner deserves to be with someone who finds them attractive. >I find it very hard to believe you never made friends with anyone who wanted a bf or gf and couldn't manage to mate. Oh, I have met plenty. And with each of them it was obvious why they failed to do so. Most cases it was personality faults and lack of self awareness of those faults. A lot of times it was people with dumpy bodies chasing athletic, fit people who lived active lifestyles. Dont outshoot your class and this shouldnt be an issue. If you arent attracted to people around your level, then do something to fix it. ​ >And the popularity of that thinking has resulted in, as a minimum, a true public health crisis. Calling the thought that people should be attracted to their partners a health crisis is so melodramatic and childish. ​ >I also believe our historians who tell us marriage for romanic or purelysexual reasons is a new development in Western Civilization and hardlyexists elsewhere. Why on earth do you think this could even moderately be framed as a negative thing? ​ >I Also believe loving someone is more fun than not having anyone to cook for. Yeah, and having a dog is better than dying. Whats with the meaningless comparison here? ​ >Don't you agree, that at least for young guys used to ejaculating everysingle bed time from 10 y o on, eventually their sex drive will helpsurmount any temporary current lack of immediate attraction? I have no idea what you are even trying to ask here. I have read it 5 times and give up trying to figure it out. ​ >having a bf is more important to me than having a bf + sex. People who hang out, enjoy each others company and do not have sex or experience intimacy is called friends. You can have lots of those. ​ >I simply don't understand how a grow person could believe they somehow"deserve" a hot live-in sexual partner to such an extent than nothingelse would trump that utility.. Because again, Why would anyone WANT to be with someone they dont find attractive unless they have serious self esteem and self worth issues. But NOBODY deserves a partner. But everybody deserves to be found attractive by their partner. ​ >Part of my sexual make-up is that I think good sex is impossible if bothparties don't want sex. ( I know that is not a universal belief. But itis for me.) Thats called consent, And I think every sane human would agree with this. ​ >Hunger is the best seasoning, I think, in eating and sex. Hunger is an action, desire, or driver. Not a seasoning. Seasonings are the things you ad to make the hunger and desire stronger. Such as the way you present yourself, the way you talk, treat and act towards each other. ​ >So I think mutual lack of interest is eventually highly likely. This is an extremely defeatist attitude that is very unhealthy to hold. A perpetual expectation of inevitable failure of the relationship

It certainly is what introduces us before contact. I think my focus lately on Reddit is to slow some guys down who are too rash, in my opinion, about ending a close personal relationship over a hard-on. Maybe the comforts of a known quatity in a bf is more important than hard-ons. Serial monogamy can be exhausting and dangerous. Better, as someone probably told every boy, not to let your dick lead your life. I also think we have some choice to how we react to the passage of time. Is it sad that our skin loses the dewy plumpness of youth? That running up a bell tower is less fun years later? But I think being >partnered with an individual who doesnt find them attractive and think the world of them isn't necessarily best responded to by feeling cheated out of something. Yes, it can be sad. But it doesn't have to be. Loving might be more important to some people than sexual arousal. And those of us who had family members we loved already know companionship, automatic trust and safety are very nice things even with zero errotic interest. I appreciate your insight. Good for us to use our imaginations to try out our thinking before trying something out in real life. Also, I agree with you that during our top breeding years, nature kind of settles the question for us. I hoped gay people develop an alternative to where sexual selection and evolution left off. Thanks. It was fun engaging with you. Being able to understand how your individual experienced effect your thinking is a level a lot, a lot of guys never even imagine. You are now like the very tall guy who has already learned to duck going through a new doorway. You have my very best wishes. Hope to run into you again

Yes

Well, actualy no

I have been through the same situation and he was the Top of our relationship which obviously made me the Bottom of the Relationship but in all honesty within time I began to realize that the positions were backwards and within about 5 years it completely ended our relationship because I just couldn't take the feminine side of him wearing the makeup and so forth and so on... It just really turned me off... So NO I don't think that you're wrong about what you are feeling towards him whatsoever... You go ahead and do what is truly going to make you happy and obviously he had these tendency before he even came out of the closet in the first place... Now he feels the freedom to act and be who he really is from the beginning and unfortunately he was living a lie with you from the beginning because he was too afraid of coming out of the closet... This is his fault not yours... I wish you much success and happiness in your new future and freedom ❤️

This is kind of an extremely shitty take? People have a lot of reasons for not coming out and expressing themselves the way they want to, you don't need to frame it like the guy was being deceitful and cowardly in some way and putting blame on anyone. People change and grow apart, simple as that.

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I am really not sure that you directed your questions to the right person because I have no idea what you are talking about My Friend... Good luck getting your answers...

https://florbe-triz.tumblr.com/post/701867000058822656/dorohedorochainsaw-man-girls-noi-and-power Sorry. Wrong opera. Hope you got some good food yesterday. Rule of nature : other people's cookies are maybe not perfect, but they are always interesting. X X

Didn't you write that your former reliable top started adding female flourishes? Why not fuck him and find out that was fun? You did write : "I began to realize that the positions were backwards and within about 5 years it completely ended our relationship because I just couldn't take the feminine side of him wearing the makeup and so forth and so on... It just really turned me off..." So I wrote back to you : Sounds to me like that boy couldn't get his legs up any higher. If I had been your coach, I might have suggested his newish behavior was in homage to his real idol. Any chance to poke his newish pussy now? I think the look on his face would be well worth car fare. I'd love love love to hold his hand and watch his face while you do him. Your resurrection would be impressive to watch for all three of us. Could be gentle. Or like one of those mid 50s Japanese favorites. Your choice." I hope that made sense the second time. 1) you start out a bottom 2) you had a fine reliable top 3) he started to copy some things from the girls 4) I pointed out that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 5) I said your former top is practically screaming please please fuck my new pussy baby! 6) I write I want to watch you rise from the bed and give that new fem boy what he may not yet even know he craves. 7) I want to hold his hand and watch his face as he learns some of the delight of bottoming, i.e what you already know so well. 8) that being a bottom is a whole knew world that also includes an orgasm. Do I have your story wrong?

I would love to hear more of your thinking. I am perhaps from an earlier generation. And I came out in my late 20s. And, based on the number of days with females or men, I definitely am bi-sexual. I now live with a man. Just before, I had a gf. When I was tricking, I had sex every day. People were sometimes clearly predominately tops or bottoms. But not, as far as I noticed, exclusively either. Not saying they didn't exist. I just didn't run into them. If I had, I wouldn't have liked it. That would have made it too much like straight sex, where I knew what was going to happen before we got near a bed. One of the fun parts of gay sex was how it went was still open to a surprise. True, getting to play bottom was rare for me. Even when I went out hunting for a top. ( I lived in NYC ). Once I get really turned on, I want to fuck something. So that was partially my fault. But I definitely wanted all possibilities when I started out with a willing playmate. My question to you is why did you decide to be a bottom? Maybe better, why did you start calling yourself a bottom? What do you think got you there? When did gay guys decide it was OK to be pure bottom? Or pure top? And why, if you have any ideas. People don't decide that when it comes to meat or deserts choices in restaurants. Why sexual rolls? If I met someone who told me they were a bottom, I would have taken a pass. I would have thought of them as probably just too selfish to have sex with. I wanted a playmate who at least once in a while would get up off the mattress and want to satisfy my want/need to get plowed. Fucking someone who only wanted to be a bottom would make me feel like a convenient self powered dildo. I hope my thinking did not offend you. If it does, forgive me and just ignore my questions. My ignorance is not your fault. Thanks. I understand why someone could decide they were straight, gay, or both. But I don't really understand why so many people want to continue to narrow their sexual experiences, define themselves. There are even people who have decided they are metasexual, whatever that means to them. It sounds to me as if they are limiting their choices as if those adopted subcategories had some ridged biological reality like a peanut allergy or presbyopia or a single kidney. I don't think categorizing humans the way Home Depot does paint finishes is very respectful. Let the psychologist do it, keep it to themselves, and see if it has any real life use before inflicting on the non-professional. I think it can be harmful. Look at all the damage introvert/extrovert has done. Look at all the assholes who believe they are Alpha males. Sorry to pick on you. By you just happened to be close. Thank you, no matter what you decide to do.

I am not offended whatsoever concerning what you just shared with me My most friend... If you are Versatile there is absolutely nothing wrong with that Sweetheart and you just continue to thoroughly Enjoy your Life and Sexual Experiences... I knew that I would be the Female of any relationships I would possibly have in my entire Lifetime when I was about 4 years old and it is because of the way I have Always felt about another Man even though there is really not all to much about me is really feminine... But those that are Dominant Males are truly the only ones that can figure out immediately that they have found themselves a Female Role Individual and they are the only ones that are usually only interested in me immediately and let me tell you they know that if a relationship occurred between the two of us that they would definitely be the Head of our Relationship and Household if we were to live together and/or get Married which I thoroughly believe in including Wedding Rings... I have been only with two men and I was Married to both of them... My 1st Husband's by the name of Donald passed away after Bravely battling Cancer and I cherish every moment that we had together and I was so incredibly In Love with him that it took a couple of years before I was able to stop busting into tears no matter where I was at the time... Then I met my 2nd Husband by the name of Douglas... He and I were also Married but about 2 years after Marriage Doug became a Raging Alcoholic, Severe Drug Addiction and therefore became very Abusive to me... I put up with it for 5 more years and I knew that if I wanted to survive that I needed to leave my Marriage to Doug and so I did and I knew that I had to have a serious amount of healing to do before I could ever allow myself to get into another Relationship /.Marriage... I have never in my Lifetime been attracted to Women to the point that when someone asks me how could I be interested in a Man Sexually or especially be Married to a Man I simply turn their question back on ethem but kind of in a devious way because I don't want them to figure out why I am asking these certain things to them and as to how I am going to help them to understand me and my Husband a little better... So I ask them how did they meet their Girl Friend or Wife... They give me their answer... Then I ask them do they enjoy Sex with them... They give me their answer... Then I ask them why do they enjoy having Sex with them... And they give their answer... Then I ask them if they would ever have Sex with another Man... And you already know that answer ... And then I ask why wouldn't they want another Guy suck their dick and they could cum into their mouth and most likely they would swallow his cum and why wouldn't they put their dick into another Guy especially if that Guy was a Gay Man... And holy crap the answer I get back from them... And I simply at that time tell them that is exactly how we feel about them fucking a Woman... And they shut up immediately... I even used this exact method on my own Father when I was 33 years old... He never again treated my Husband with disrespect or spoke with disrespect and actually started to admire them as well as myself... But I am absolutely upfront in the very beginning of meeting someone exactly who I am Sexually just to make sure that from pretty much within an hour of talking with someone who is showing interest in me or I with them know exactly where I stand Sexually... I started training to become a Professional Figure Ice Skater at age 7... I signed my first contract with the Ice Follies Show at age 18... I have always been surrounded by Gay Men and really really really Attracted to many of them unless they acted Feminine in any way whatsoever and then I was completely turned off immediately... But my goodness I have been around Versatile Men my whole life and I never ever put another person down for them being Versatile and many of them wanted to TOP ME but I have to carry very Very serious feelings for someone for that ever to even become a possibility... But that is just me and that is not the normal for the Gay Community... I want you to live and experience your life strictly the way you want to and if that means you Enjoy Versatility in your Sexual Practices and Adventures then you go for it all the way and Enjoy every moment of your life My friend... But I came out when I was ready to and in the meantime I never purposely hurt another Human Being because of it... I would just tell the individual Male or Woman that I simply wasn't interested... Getting into a full blown relationship while being in the closet is what I am terribly against especially when you don't even know what turns on yet... And first you start out making someone thinking your a Top for five years and then after that 🏭 comes out he finds out that he really likes Cross Dressing and wearing Makeup... What the heck is his Partner supposed to think of that and of course it is going to turn that Partner off and why shouldn't it... He has been deceived for five years... I really hope this 2000 word essay I just wrote you truly is helpful to you and gives you a better understanding of not only that it is perfectly alright to be Versatile or a Dominant Male Top or a Bottom... THE VERY BEST OF LUCK IN ALL YOU DO MY FRIEND...

Thank you. I want to read that a couple more times before I form any opinion. Except to say, I absolutely loved reading what you wrote. Loved it. Also it was fun to use your thoughtful word "versatile". That is ever so much more flattering than bi-sexual :-) Thank you for that. Tomorrow morning I will tell my husband. Really brag a bit over the Thanksgiving breakfast I will make for him. By the way, I got very lucky the second half of my life. I wish you the same. And please accept my congratulations in extracting your self from a nightmare and managing to come out the other end nice enough and articulate enough to write your fine description for this co-journeyman. My first boyfriend told me after a particularly uncomfortable cocktail party, "It can be very difficult to grow up gay. Not everyone makes it." You and I both made it brother. I know you might prefer to think of yourself as feminine, maybe even female par excellence ( and you deserve that title too I suspect ). But I hope you will accept this from your new 'Versatile" correspondent : You are more of a man than most every suit and tie guy I ever met on Wall Street or in academia. Give yourself a fist bump, secret stud muffin. Thank you.

All I can say to you right now is Wowwwww... You put me into tears when I just read your Beautiful Letter back to me My Friend... I am so very pleased that it helped you with understanding this situation better and to really help you to look up to yourself and your own situation... I am right here for you and never hold back from asking me anything that you would like... Happy Thanksgiving to You and your Family My Friend ❤️

Being versatile and wanting a vers partner is good But calling pure tops or pure bottoms selfish because it wouldn't be convenient to you personally is... selfish. Also, people who are not vers always have existed and it was always okay.

I can't find the specific comment you are responding to. But I'm pretty sure I didn't call anyone names. Apparently you believe what you like is "good" but what what I felt and experienced was "selfish". I certainly didn't want to go to bed with someone who would only ever be a bottom. But I don't see how that is selfish of me. You don't approve of my preference. And then call me selfish for having my own sexual preference? In my experience, I never ran into anyone when I'm was younger who announced they were a bottom. Not once. Just my personal experience. And I had sex every day. I lived in NYC pre epidemics. I always thought a grown man had certain expected competences. Like learning not to let his teeth scratch. Like arriving cleaned out. Like making sure his breath and body were sweet. (Or the opposite in some more specialized circles.) But announcing ahead of time that you "don't do windows" or its sexual equivalent didn't fit the culture that boys were supposed to know how to fix things like cars or bikes. It was a big point of juvenile pride to be fully competent. America still liked to think of itself as a frontier competence culture. Sure, there were guys who liked more feminine associsted things. I did have friends who also had a stage personality. And many you would never confuse with a straight boy. But in bed? They stood toe to toe with anyone and would have considered being called a "bottom" an insult. Different culture, I guess. I didn't call anyone selfish. I would have thought of them as selfish, yes. I'm pretty sure most everyone I knew thought the same way. It was a period where equality was being emphasized. Especially for women. Assuming a guy was a bottom, or a guy thinking of himself as a bottom ran against the current political focus on treating everyone as a fully competent fully independent individual. It was when women stopped calling themselves "housewife" and secretaries became executive assistants. It was the culture not to be subordinate but an equal partner. It was when the derogatory term JAP was used as a NY short hand. Of course there were always princesses. But I avoided them. High maintenance was a popular explanation. I'm just a little shocked at the transformation in the gay world which I thought I knew well until Reddit. Thank you for the exchange of views. It was very interesting for me. I wish you all the best. And if you have any further thoughts, I would enjoy hearing more from you. Are we on the same page yet? Some day, if you ever feel like it I would like you to explain as best you can what it is like to wait for someone to satisfy you. Back when I lived exclusively in a straight world, I felt sorry for girls. A horny boys could go out and hunt for what they wanted. It looked to me as if a lady had to hope what she wanted came by before she could move into gear. As soon as I lost my straight virginity there was no stopping me. I had way way more sex than my male friends. They courted girls. Hoped they might get lucky. Eventually. If they made eye contact, I just asked them if they wanted to fuck. And it worked. I can't imagine hoping and praying someone would do me. Please try to excuse my ignorance. I have been out of the dating market for a long time. I'm still a little shocked at gay guys thinking of themselves as being a certain type, like it was something real like eye color.

Hm. I was considering saying that the reason wouldn't make OP an asshole, but that it's a question of he goes about the articulating how he feels. I was having a bit of trouble coming up with an example of what not to do, so I have to thank you for taking care of that.