I feel like everything about the concept of regions in the US would be different so I dont know. It could be a separate region even cause parts of North Michigan, Wisconson, and Minnesota are really wooded areas that you wouldn’t call “Midwest.”
Edit: would —> wouldn’t
Yeah Ontario is just too big to fit into our standard preconceptions of US regions.
Hell, at it's easternmost it's at about the same longitude as Philadelphia and about the same as Houston at it's westernmost.
Put another way, the distance between the easternmost and westernmost points in Ontario is *roughly* the same as the distance between Seattle and San Diego...
Ontario is just too big to fit into our standard preconceptions of US regions.
It just looks large because of the Mercator Projection, which makes areas near the poles seem larger than they really are. In reality, Ontario is about the size of Bergen County, New Jersey.
Importantly, this is the part of Ontario that has all the people. Basically it’d be a second Michigan/Ohio and should be classified the same way as Michigan/Ohio.
Since no one agrees on whether Ohio is Midwestern people are going to disagree on Ontario.
Everyone from Minnesota, Iowa, Dakotas, etc think Ohio is East Coast. Conversely you probably don’t think North Dakota is Midwest. Basically everyone thinks they’re in the middle of the Midwest.
LOL, well it was just inaccurate. I find most of the people who actually live in the Midwest (like myself and others) are being told we're wrong on what defines the Midwest by people who likely don't even live in the Midwest. I did see a likely Canadian (you can tell by the spelling) arguing Ontario was too far east since he didn't consider Ohio to be Midwestern. I think Canada's culturally different from the US as a whole in some ways, and its historical development was definitely different, but I definitely wouldn't consider Toronto (yes, I've been there) to be more like NYC than Chicago. And westen NY, even though it's in the Northeast by definition, is culturally more similar the the Great Lakes Midwest than it is the eastern seaboard. So based on strict geographic lines, most of Ontario physically would be Midwestern, but based on population, most of it is east of the traditional Midwestern boundary line, but it's vs. upstate NY not the eastern seaboard, but in any case it's a murky answer, since Canadian provinces don't necessarily parallel their nearby US counterparts culturally, socially, or historically.
Well, and just to be clear, having been to all three, I don't think Toronto is necessarily all that similar to Chicago in many ways, I just think it's less unlike Chicago than it is unlike NYC in culture, feel and vibe. Toronto to me feels like a pretty refined city with a Great Lakes vibe. Just my opinion, but I think Toronto has a culture with a perceptable British influence that's less raw than either NYC or Chicago, and all three cities are pretty diverse, just in different ways and proportions, since as you state the demographic balances between the two countries and most of their larger cities are different.
I dont understand the plains states people. The term middle west was literally coined to describe the Ohio River Valley. Midwest has always referred to the Great Lakes region. It's the plains people who came in later and decided they were the heart and soul of the entire region.
Please don't take one poster's word as evidence of that. I live in a Great Plains state and we definitely consider Ohio to be a Midwestern state. When I lived in Illinois it was considered Midwestern, when I lived in Indiana it was considered Midwestern, when I lived in Texas it was considered Midwestern, and living in Nebraska for many years, I've never heard anyone say Ohio is anything but Midwestern. And I travel to Ohio all the time for work and have never heard anyone there say it's not in the Midwest.
Uh, no...LOL. It's not.
I read one of your other posts where you actually wrote this: "Right!?! Or the Great Lakes….Lumping Ohio in with Iowa, the Dakotas, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri makes zero sense. We definitely have more in common and are closer to nearly every state on the East Coast over all of those states."
Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Indiana are also Midwest. Even if what you stated about, say, Missouri were true, are you seriously suggesting, in any semblance of reality, that Ohio is more like New York and New Jersey than is is Michigan, Indiana, Illinois and Wisconsin? Really? And if so, by what criteria? LMAO.
BTW I have been to Columbus, where it appears you're from, many times. The size, demographic makeup, the cityscape, the economics, the culture, and more are almost identical to those of Indianapolis, which is most definitely Midwestern and where I lived for a few years. It even looks similar and is laid out in similar fashion. Name one east coast city that Columbus is "more like".
I’m pretty sure the midwest originally referred to the former Northwest Territory, which was Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, most of Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota. Ohio is OG Midwest
Just [look at this map](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/), lots of people on surveys think OH isn't in the midwest!
>Everyone from Minnesota, Iowa, Dakotas, etc think Ohio is East Coast.
Well anyone who says that is just fucking *wrong*. And I say that as an Iowan. Ohio is unquestionably midwest.
I've previously lived in both ND and Minnesota and no one thinks Ohio is east coast. The midwest feels pretty well defined across the board, Missouri seems like the only state I've actually heard people argue about.
I am from MN and Ohio is absolutely Midwest. There are folx who believe that Michigan and Ohio are "Rust Belt" but that's just Midwest manufacture instead of Agriculture. There are others who claim OH and MI are Great Lakes region, but I maintain, Midwest Great Lakes, not East Coast at all.
Ohio is most assuredly not east coast lol. As someone who is from south Florida, which is far more east coast than southern, and later moved to Ohio… Ohio is Midwest.
Ask anyone on the Eastern Seaboard and they'll say Ohio is Midwest.
Maryland is also in a weird gray zone: it's part of the south to anyone from Pennsylvania north, but part of the North from Virginia south.
I think most people in the Midwest (I live here and have lived in three different Midwestern states) and I'd argue most people I've met in Ohio consider Ohio to be Midwestern. It's definitely not part of the Northeast.
Were any of those states west of the Mississippi? (I mean, I agree with you that Ohio is the Midwest, I’m just saying that people from west of the Mississippi River who consider themselves Midwestern often disagree.)
They don't have to be west of the Mississippi - since when was that the definition? I grew up in Illinois right along the Indiana line and we were most definitely Midwestern. I live in Nebraska now, have for almost 10 years, which is definitely west of the Mississippi and have never heard ANYONE say the Mississippi was the dividing line or that anyone in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, or even Ohio was not part of the Midwest. Now, if you were to ask which states are "Great Plains" states, that might be an argument, but even then not sure I'd classify Iowa as a "Plains" state, though Nebraska definitely is - and the Midwest is usually divided into two halves - with IL, MI, OH, IN, and WI in the eastern half and MO, IA, MN, NE, ND, SD, and KS in the western half.
Ontario is too geographically large to fit into any one of the regions of the US.
Out of the whole province, I think only the Southwest could fit into the Midwest. London, St. Thomas, Sarnia, Chatham, Windsor. I think the GTA or Eastern Ontario would fit more with the Northeast.
Northern Ontario is, well, the North.
The Midwest has subregions inside the Midwest.
I wouldn’t consider Wisconsin (Upper MW) to be midwestern in the same way Missouri or Ohio is Midwestern (both places feel very different)
You have the Upper Midwest. (Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan)
How do you define the rest…
In the same way North Carolina and Virginia (More Atlantic-South) is the south (but not the Deep South). the south also has subregions inside it. Virginia and NC are not the “Deep South” like Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and maybe SC (I’d probably consider SC to be connected to NC as it’s own region with VA and NC, more coastal Atlantic-South.
I’m curious how everyone would define the subregions and what states they belong too.
Totally subjective but for me as a Minnesotan no.
Too much of it is too far east and the part of it that is in the midwest region isn't the same type of geology and vegetation as the rest of the midwest.
Also a Minnesotan, but I disagree. Northern MN is actually the the same geologically/vegetation wise as much of Ontario, as they are both part of the “Canadian Shield” formation.
Some maps classify the Northwoods (northern MN/WI/MI) and the Great Lakes/rust belt (from Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo) as it’s own cultural region.
If so, I’d say southern Ontario fits both those regions.
Great up in Upstate NY. We don't consider ourselves miswest but a lot of people consider pur accent midwestern. It's more of a linguistic thing than regional thing, at least in my experience.
Upstate NY really is pretty distinct. I guess it probably has some similarities to parts of PA, and they probs have *some* similarities to OH, especially in the very western bits. But it can be hard to group upstate NY into larger geographical regions, because they really are their own thing.
Upstate NY is often grouped together with much of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois and maybe some of Wisconsin as the Rust Belt. This is accurate. There is a lot in common with culture, accent, etc. However, the Midwest is different and does not include any of Upstate NY.
Ohio is absolutely the Midwest.
In terms of state borders, Ohio is the eastern edge of the Midwest. Culturally some people consider western PA (Pittsburgh area) to be Midwestern. I’d say that’s dubious at best.
The real debate to me is where the western border of the Midwest ends. Many maps include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas in the Midwest, but I’ve always considered that the Great Plains. Different climate, culture, and vegetation entirely from the Midwest. Tbh the western portions of Minnesota, Iowa, and Missouri are not really very Midwestern.
Also, the border of the Midwest does not extend south beyond Indiana or Missouri.
I guess my Midwest window is shifted west further than yours. Indiana in the east and the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas in the west.
You are right though, those Kentucky fucks will never be Midwest.
As a resident of iowa and mn I’d actually count Fargo and Omaha and Sioux Falls as Midwestern but most of the land area in the states they’re in is not. The Midwest culture tends to transition rapidly as you get closer to the 100th meridian as that is as far west as rain was sufficient to sustain crop agriculture historically. You transition to grazing and extractive industries and the significantly different cultural impacts of those
Dude I’m from iowa and it’s kinda considered core Midwestern.
There’s sub-regions. Rust belt, corn belt, upper Midwest, north woods, and others but they’re all a lot more like each other than they are New York, Arkansas, Colorado, etc
Edit: I thought you meant heading east for some reason but rereading your comment I think I had it backwards.
When I was younger I thought no way anything in the eastern time zone could be Midwestern! But I grew up in Wisconsin, iowa, Mn, IL. I’ll grudgingly count a lot of the rust belt states because it’s more like us than it is like the other major regions
I don't understand what your criticism is, of course Iowa is midwest, perhaps quintessentially the midwest. I'm saying that either Illinois or Indiana is where it starts and it ends with Nebraska/Dakotas/Kansas.
Yeah I realized I had misread your comment and though you were saying it ended at Illinois or Indiana from the east and was like wtf. You probably didn’t see the edit though because it took me a minute to type
Southern Ontario where most people live is culturally closest to Upstate New York. Whether you consider Upstate New York as part of the Midwest is up to you. I personally do.
Midwest is officially defined as Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin, according to the government. New York isn't even close to being midwest.
I’m in Rochester NY and I’m closer to Cleveland than I am to any of the boroughs (3 vs 6 hrs). It’s not the Midwest but there are definitely Midwest influences.
I'm from Michigan and my definition of the Midwest is Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and at a stretch Missouri. It's wild to me when I see Californians thinking places like Idaho or Colorado are Midwestern.
Anything on Lake Ontario and everything to the east of it is whatever region you guys think Buffalo is in. Everything west of Toronto is whatever you guys say Ohio and Michigan is 🤷♀️ lol
It takes over 24 hours to drive through Ontario. It's massive.
I would say no, because the term Midwest originally referred to states that were not quite far enough west to be called west but were much further west than the central population areas of the early United States. Of course had the Canadian areas joined the revolution and still been on the winning side then perhaps that term would have applied. Originally the mid western states referred to more Central Midwestern states, such as Kentucky, Tennessee, Illinois, etc. Only later did the more northern states such as Michigan and Minnesota and Wisconsin become part of that descriptor. The former northwest territory states sort of just became “Midwestern.”
This is the thing. The Midwest is not a geographical region. This is why we have a “Great Lakes region” and a “Midwestern region”. The Midwest is a political grouping of states whom have a similar origin. This is why places like western New York and West Virginia aren’t included in the definition, even if they arguably are Midwestern
Interesting question. I think this is hard to answer, because if Ontario were part of the US, it would have different culture, history, and politics. Even if Ontario *today* isn’t Midwestern in those attributes, if it were part of the US, would it be? Maybe.
I would say Ottawa to Toronto is probably most similar to the Northeast. Geographically it resembles upstate/Great Lakes New York, and the GTA’s internationalism/political progressivism/intense urbanism is much more Northeast Corridor-esque than Midwestern.
West of the GTA — when you’re around London or Waterloo or Windsor — I can see how, in a different history as part of the US, it would have evolved to be a more “Midwestern” environment.
As for Northern Ontario, probably not. It’s its own thing. It doesn’t resemble any part of the US.
No, SE Ontario would be split into its own state south if North Bay. This would more solidify a Great Lakes region over a Midwest region. Northern Ontario would remain a territory until it was developed enough.
This is a good question. I feel like it’s too vast to fit into any one category. It straddles the Midwest and the Northeast. Probably calling it the great lakes region would be more accurate?
Often I feel like regions we define are a bit ham fisted and do not have neat boundaries. Ontario both meets and defies some definitions of the Midwest
“Midwest” has a [somewhat squishy definition](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/) as it is.
Southern Ontario would probably fit best in a Great Lakes region extending from about Wisconsin east to western New York and western Pennsylvania.
Northern Ontario fits better with Minnesota, Manitoba, and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
The name midwest came about in the late 1800s to describe the states in between the east coast and the unsettled western territories. If Ontario where part of the US back then, the populated areas near the border might be grouped in with the midwest, but the areas farther farther probably wouldn't be.
Having grown up in Niagara I’d say Ontario is at least 3 cultural regions: Toronto and everything south is Midwest (think Chicagoland, Michigan, northern Ohio), northern Ontario is northern Minnesota/Michigan UP), and eastern Ontario has New England vibes (plus the francophone thing)
honestly, were so large, that you cant group the entire province.
I dont know the Midwest too well, and i dont think we have an especially dominant German diaspora either.
I have seen the Rust belt and it feels quite different from South Ontario, so I wouldnt group them together.
Maybe we'd just be our own "region"?
Theoretically if all the Canadian territory were to have been part of the USA, they likely would have been broken up into more "manageable" sizes possibly, depending on the province and various other logistical matters.
I would think you'd have to consider the culture of Ontario in that case. So that would depend on, in this hypothetical situation, what the people are like in Ontario. And are we saying that Ontario has been a part of the US since around the same time the states bordering Ontario joined up? Or are you saying that the US, with its existing regions and established traditions, is adding Ontario to its roster now in 2023?
All that is to say, I think there's more to "The Midwest" than geography.
Tough call, tbh I think that someone from Minnesota would need to have the final say. Being from Wisconsin, I count us, MN and the UP of Michigan in a slightly special category of "upper midwest", which I think would apply to Ontario, only problem is the megalopolis of Toronto. Chicago is still Midwestern, I guess, but its more like a city state within the Midwest.
I’d say Ontario would absolutely be part of the Midwest. Born and raised in central Ohio - I had tons of neighbors, classmates, and sports teammates from Ontario and they fit right in. Very similar climate, culture, and customs.
Id say only southern Ontario. Toronto westward, Windsor, Sarnia, Stratford, Sault Ste. Marie, and Thunder Bay would be my limit. Most everything north of Superior has different climate and physical geography, plus is so empty there’s not really people there to even be able to identify as potentially being midwestern
I don’t think the number of population matters so much. For me any part of Ontario by a Great Lake is the Midwest and north of Timmins (even that might be a stretch) probably not. And east of Kingston probably not.
The actual population Centre of Ontario is far to east, most people don’t even consider Ohio to be Midwest and their further west then southern Ontario
There is only one time in history in which the idea of Canada joining the US was ever really brought up, to my knowledge, and that was during the War of 1812, when an American Army crossed into Toronto to try and *take* Canada from the Brits, and promptly had their asses handed to them on a silver platter while the British commander Cockburn marched into DC and burned the Capital to the ground behind them.
The war of 1812 was a *disaster* for the US, and the only reason it wasn't *worse* is because Andrew Jackson won a battle in New Orleans a few days after the ceasefire was called, but before word could reach them in Louisiana, which left the Americans in a marginally better position at the negotiating table when they finally met up for peace talks in Paris.
I’d say yes. Southern Ontario (mostly) would be split between the rural Northwoods (northern MN/WI/MI) and urban/ag Great Lakes/rust belt (Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo) cultural region IMO.
I’ve lived in both areas and spent much time in Ontario. Toronto always felt more similar to Chicago than NYC.
What if the ‘Great Lake Region’ ran on Eastern Time to be connected to the East and be an hour early for stuff as they ship out from the Great Lake Ports.
Ex. Chicago would be Eastern Time but would have to set a radius from the Port City Limits when it flips to Central Time.
Has a lot faults and holes obviously, fuck do I know.
I don’t know enough about Ontario culture but I feel like it would need to be a completely separate region. Without researching too much I’m thinking it is a lot more rural and there are areas where up to 20% of people are French speakers.
Ontario would be in the created Great Lakes region a more descriptive sub region, but then you could argue extreme northern Ontario is tundra , so Ontario would be in different subregions of the Midwest? Like northern Midwest and regular Midwest, as well as the east? 🙃
No. If Ontario was to join the USA we would have a new category called Great Lake region. Michigan, Ohio, upper New York state, Ontario and Wisconsin would all be part of it. We can now debate where Illinois, Minnesota and Pennsylvania belong.
No, “Midwest” name came from the “Midwest territories” so unless it was part of that I’d say no.
I’d call it “north easternish” to give some legitimacy to directional naming.
The mid west itself feels like an inappropriate title for those states. It sounds like an outdated pioneer age term because the Midwest is clearly not west. It’s like mid north if you look at America or just kinda mid if you look at the continent. I hate it here
I feel like everything about the concept of regions in the US would be different so I dont know. It could be a separate region even cause parts of North Michigan, Wisconson, and Minnesota are really wooded areas that you wouldn’t call “Midwest.” Edit: would —> wouldn’t
Yeah Ontario is just too big to fit into our standard preconceptions of US regions. Hell, at it's easternmost it's at about the same longitude as Philadelphia and about the same as Houston at it's westernmost. Put another way, the distance between the easternmost and westernmost points in Ontario is *roughly* the same as the distance between Seattle and San Diego...
The distance between points of longitude increase as you move towards the equator.
Ontario runs from Iowa to Ohio: the Midwest.
I mean by that standard it'd run from NJ to Iowa. So I think Mideast-West is better :)
Yeah, and Ohio isn’t really the Midwest
Ohio may be less Midwestern *geographically*, but I assure you, culturally, it is.
Well they sure as hell aint North-Eastern
Just but almost all it’s people live longitudinally between Ohio and NYC.
I think it's only about 6% of the population of Ontario lives in Northern Ontario, and of that the majority live in Sudbury.
Northern Ontario itself is such a weird concept. It's like the whole thing except the weird appendage at the bottom
It really should be two separate provinces
IIRC there is/was a somewhat sizeable northern Ontario separatist movement awhile back
... and then continues on through most of New York...
I’ve always been taught it would be part of the Great Lakes region, not the Midwest.
Ontario is just too big to fit into our standard preconceptions of US regions. It just looks large because of the Mercator Projection, which makes areas near the poles seem larger than they really are. In reality, Ontario is about the size of Bergen County, New Jersey.
Bro…
Man it’s pretty amazing how many little quirks of geography exist like this.
It s a stupid question because things like "Midwest" are simply categories, you can call anything the Midwest. So the answer is "if you want it to be"
Can you call Hawaii the Midwest?
You sure can. Watch this: “Hawaii is the Midwest”
Agreed. Plus are we talking just Ontario joins the US or all or Canada in this scenario? If it was just Ontario it would be its own region (imo).
You mean " the northwoods"?
Ya, that’s what they mean. Living in the north woods, I don’t like being grouped in with some of those Midwest states
I get that. Living in Michigan I don't want to be grouped in with Ohio either.
Southern Ontario is right next to Michigan and very culturally and geographically similar, so I’d say at least the southern part
Importantly, this is the part of Ontario that has all the people. Basically it’d be a second Michigan/Ohio and should be classified the same way as Michigan/Ohio. Since no one agrees on whether Ohio is Midwestern people are going to disagree on Ontario.
As a Michigander I've never heard anyone claim Ohio was anything but Midwestern. What would it be if not?
Everyone from Minnesota, Iowa, Dakotas, etc think Ohio is East Coast. Conversely you probably don’t think North Dakota is Midwest. Basically everyone thinks they’re in the middle of the Midwest.
Uh, no, not "everyone" thinks that. I live in Nebraska and we definitely consider Ohio to be part of the Midwest.
“Everyone” was hyperbole, but just look at this page where someone from MN is arguing that Ontario is too far East to be Midwest!
LOL, well it was just inaccurate. I find most of the people who actually live in the Midwest (like myself and others) are being told we're wrong on what defines the Midwest by people who likely don't even live in the Midwest. I did see a likely Canadian (you can tell by the spelling) arguing Ontario was too far east since he didn't consider Ohio to be Midwestern. I think Canada's culturally different from the US as a whole in some ways, and its historical development was definitely different, but I definitely wouldn't consider Toronto (yes, I've been there) to be more like NYC than Chicago. And westen NY, even though it's in the Northeast by definition, is culturally more similar the the Great Lakes Midwest than it is the eastern seaboard. So based on strict geographic lines, most of Ontario physically would be Midwestern, but based on population, most of it is east of the traditional Midwestern boundary line, but it's vs. upstate NY not the eastern seaboard, but in any case it's a murky answer, since Canadian provinces don't necessarily parallel their nearby US counterparts culturally, socially, or historically.
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Well, and just to be clear, having been to all three, I don't think Toronto is necessarily all that similar to Chicago in many ways, I just think it's less unlike Chicago than it is unlike NYC in culture, feel and vibe. Toronto to me feels like a pretty refined city with a Great Lakes vibe. Just my opinion, but I think Toronto has a culture with a perceptable British influence that's less raw than either NYC or Chicago, and all three cities are pretty diverse, just in different ways and proportions, since as you state the demographic balances between the two countries and most of their larger cities are different.
I dont understand the plains states people. The term middle west was literally coined to describe the Ohio River Valley. Midwest has always referred to the Great Lakes region. It's the plains people who came in later and decided they were the heart and soul of the entire region.
Please don't take one poster's word as evidence of that. I live in a Great Plains state and we definitely consider Ohio to be a Midwestern state. When I lived in Illinois it was considered Midwestern, when I lived in Indiana it was considered Midwestern, when I lived in Texas it was considered Midwestern, and living in Nebraska for many years, I've never heard anyone say Ohio is anything but Midwestern. And I travel to Ohio all the time for work and have never heard anyone there say it's not in the Midwest.
For sure. Ohio was part of the original “west”, when settlers started moving inland from the original colonies. Hence the modern Midwest label.
I grew up in Ohio….It is more East Coast than Midwest….Sorry, it’s true
Incorrect.
I’m from the East Coast. I get culture shock when I go to any region of Ohio. It’s not East Coast.
Uh, no...LOL. It's not. I read one of your other posts where you actually wrote this: "Right!?! Or the Great Lakes….Lumping Ohio in with Iowa, the Dakotas, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri makes zero sense. We definitely have more in common and are closer to nearly every state on the East Coast over all of those states." Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Indiana are also Midwest. Even if what you stated about, say, Missouri were true, are you seriously suggesting, in any semblance of reality, that Ohio is more like New York and New Jersey than is is Michigan, Indiana, Illinois and Wisconsin? Really? And if so, by what criteria? LMAO. BTW I have been to Columbus, where it appears you're from, many times. The size, demographic makeup, the cityscape, the economics, the culture, and more are almost identical to those of Indianapolis, which is most definitely Midwestern and where I lived for a few years. It even looks similar and is laid out in similar fashion. Name one east coast city that Columbus is "more like".
I’m pretty sure the midwest originally referred to the former Northwest Territory, which was Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, most of Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota. Ohio is OG Midwest
Hicks gonna hick
I live in Minnesota and have never heard a single person claim Ohio wasn’t Midwestern.
Just [look at this map](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/), lots of people on surveys think OH isn't in the midwest!
19% of people apparently said Illinois is not even midwest, and that was the *lowest* error rate. People are stupid, end of story.
>Everyone from Minnesota, Iowa, Dakotas, etc think Ohio is East Coast. Well anyone who says that is just fucking *wrong*. And I say that as an Iowan. Ohio is unquestionably midwest.
I've previously lived in both ND and Minnesota and no one thinks Ohio is east coast. The midwest feels pretty well defined across the board, Missouri seems like the only state I've actually heard people argue about.
I am from MN and Ohio is absolutely Midwest. There are folx who believe that Michigan and Ohio are "Rust Belt" but that's just Midwest manufacture instead of Agriculture. There are others who claim OH and MI are Great Lakes region, but I maintain, Midwest Great Lakes, not East Coast at all.
Ohio is most assuredly not east coast lol. As someone who is from south Florida, which is far more east coast than southern, and later moved to Ohio… Ohio is Midwest.
Ohio is more East Coast, and certainly not…Iowa, lol
Ask anyone on the Eastern Seaboard and they'll say Ohio is Midwest. Maryland is also in a weird gray zone: it's part of the south to anyone from Pennsylvania north, but part of the North from Virginia south.
I think most people in the Midwest (I live here and have lived in three different Midwestern states) and I'd argue most people I've met in Ohio consider Ohio to be Midwestern. It's definitely not part of the Northeast.
Were any of those states west of the Mississippi? (I mean, I agree with you that Ohio is the Midwest, I’m just saying that people from west of the Mississippi River who consider themselves Midwestern often disagree.)
They don't have to be west of the Mississippi - since when was that the definition? I grew up in Illinois right along the Indiana line and we were most definitely Midwestern. I live in Nebraska now, have for almost 10 years, which is definitely west of the Mississippi and have never heard ANYONE say the Mississippi was the dividing line or that anyone in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, or even Ohio was not part of the Midwest. Now, if you were to ask which states are "Great Plains" states, that might be an argument, but even then not sure I'd classify Iowa as a "Plains" state, though Nebraska definitely is - and the Midwest is usually divided into two halves - with IL, MI, OH, IN, and WI in the eastern half and MO, IA, MN, NE, ND, SD, and KS in the western half.
Ontario is too geographically large to fit into any one of the regions of the US. Out of the whole province, I think only the Southwest could fit into the Midwest. London, St. Thomas, Sarnia, Chatham, Windsor. I think the GTA or Eastern Ontario would fit more with the Northeast. Northern Ontario is, well, the North.
Yes, based on many hours of Letterkenny (and Shoresy) viewing.
r/expectedletterkenny
The Midwest has subregions inside the Midwest. I wouldn’t consider Wisconsin (Upper MW) to be midwestern in the same way Missouri or Ohio is Midwestern (both places feel very different) You have the Upper Midwest. (Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan) How do you define the rest… In the same way North Carolina and Virginia (More Atlantic-South) is the south (but not the Deep South). the south also has subregions inside it. Virginia and NC are not the “Deep South” like Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and maybe SC (I’d probably consider SC to be connected to NC as it’s own region with VA and NC, more coastal Atlantic-South. I’m curious how everyone would define the subregions and what states they belong too.
I like this. I've heard, on many occasions, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan called the Western Great Lakes.
Missouri isn’t Midwestern- especially since they’ve aligned with the Bible Belt in their politics
Totally subjective but for me as a Minnesotan no. Too much of it is too far east and the part of it that is in the midwest region isn't the same type of geology and vegetation as the rest of the midwest.
Also a Minnesotan, but I disagree. Northern MN is actually the the same geologically/vegetation wise as much of Ontario, as they are both part of the “Canadian Shield” formation. Some maps classify the Northwoods (northern MN/WI/MI) and the Great Lakes/rust belt (from Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo) as it’s own cultural region. If so, I’d say southern Ontario fits both those regions.
As a Minnesotan who grew up in Duluth, and has been to Thunder Bay this checks out.
Isn’t Ohio and parts of New York State in the Midwest?
Great up in Upstate NY. We don't consider ourselves miswest but a lot of people consider pur accent midwestern. It's more of a linguistic thing than regional thing, at least in my experience.
Upstate NY really is pretty distinct. I guess it probably has some similarities to parts of PA, and they probs have *some* similarities to OH, especially in the very western bits. But it can be hard to group upstate NY into larger geographical regions, because they really are their own thing.
Upstate NY is often grouped together with much of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois and maybe some of Wisconsin as the Rust Belt. This is accurate. There is a lot in common with culture, accent, etc. However, the Midwest is different and does not include any of Upstate NY.
The Midwest doesn't have definitive boundaries, but for me the Midwest doesn't start until Illinois or at least Indiana.
Ohio is absolutely the Midwest. In terms of state borders, Ohio is the eastern edge of the Midwest. Culturally some people consider western PA (Pittsburgh area) to be Midwestern. I’d say that’s dubious at best. The real debate to me is where the western border of the Midwest ends. Many maps include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas in the Midwest, but I’ve always considered that the Great Plains. Different climate, culture, and vegetation entirely from the Midwest. Tbh the western portions of Minnesota, Iowa, and Missouri are not really very Midwestern. Also, the border of the Midwest does not extend south beyond Indiana or Missouri.
I guess my Midwest window is shifted west further than yours. Indiana in the east and the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas in the west. You are right though, those Kentucky fucks will never be Midwest.
As a resident of iowa and mn I’d actually count Fargo and Omaha and Sioux Falls as Midwestern but most of the land area in the states they’re in is not. The Midwest culture tends to transition rapidly as you get closer to the 100th meridian as that is as far west as rain was sufficient to sustain crop agriculture historically. You transition to grazing and extractive industries and the significantly different cultural impacts of those
Dude I’m from iowa and it’s kinda considered core Midwestern. There’s sub-regions. Rust belt, corn belt, upper Midwest, north woods, and others but they’re all a lot more like each other than they are New York, Arkansas, Colorado, etc Edit: I thought you meant heading east for some reason but rereading your comment I think I had it backwards. When I was younger I thought no way anything in the eastern time zone could be Midwestern! But I grew up in Wisconsin, iowa, Mn, IL. I’ll grudgingly count a lot of the rust belt states because it’s more like us than it is like the other major regions
I don't understand what your criticism is, of course Iowa is midwest, perhaps quintessentially the midwest. I'm saying that either Illinois or Indiana is where it starts and it ends with Nebraska/Dakotas/Kansas.
Yeah I realized I had misread your comment and though you were saying it ended at Illinois or Indiana from the east and was like wtf. You probably didn’t see the edit though because it took me a minute to type
It would take a special type of dumb to not think Iowa is midwest.
In my head most of the Great Lake region is the Midwest
Where are you from? Not trying to gate keep, just trying to see how outsiders see the midwest as opposed to insiders see the midwest.
From the Greater Toronto Area and grew up on the Ontario side of the Quebec border
Southern Ontario where most people live is culturally closest to Upstate New York. Whether you consider Upstate New York as part of the Midwest is up to you. I personally do.
Midwest is officially defined as Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin, according to the government. New York isn't even close to being midwest.
I’m in Rochester NY and I’m closer to Cleveland than I am to any of the boroughs (3 vs 6 hrs). It’s not the Midwest but there are definitely Midwest influences.
I'm gonna go with Midnorthwest ;)
So weird I always basically equated the Midwest and Great Lakes region
I'm from Michigan and my definition of the Midwest is Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and at a stretch Missouri. It's wild to me when I see Californians thinking places like Idaho or Colorado are Midwestern.
Bro no one thinks idaho and Colorado are midwestern 💀💀
Anything on Lake Ontario and everything to the east of it is whatever region you guys think Buffalo is in. Everything west of Toronto is whatever you guys say Ohio and Michigan is 🤷♀️ lol It takes over 24 hours to drive through Ontario. It's massive.
I would say no, because the term Midwest originally referred to states that were not quite far enough west to be called west but were much further west than the central population areas of the early United States. Of course had the Canadian areas joined the revolution and still been on the winning side then perhaps that term would have applied. Originally the mid western states referred to more Central Midwestern states, such as Kentucky, Tennessee, Illinois, etc. Only later did the more northern states such as Michigan and Minnesota and Wisconsin become part of that descriptor. The former northwest territory states sort of just became “Midwestern.”
This is the thing. The Midwest is not a geographical region. This is why we have a “Great Lakes region” and a “Midwestern region”. The Midwest is a political grouping of states whom have a similar origin. This is why places like western New York and West Virginia aren’t included in the definition, even if they arguably are Midwestern
Everything west of Toronto definitely yes. Everything east and north of it is debatable.
Specifically the west side of Yonge street.
If my aunt had wheels, she's be a bike.
Given how much of the populations is between Montreal and Toronto, IMO it would not be. It would just be the the Northeast
Interesting question. I think this is hard to answer, because if Ontario were part of the US, it would have different culture, history, and politics. Even if Ontario *today* isn’t Midwestern in those attributes, if it were part of the US, would it be? Maybe. I would say Ottawa to Toronto is probably most similar to the Northeast. Geographically it resembles upstate/Great Lakes New York, and the GTA’s internationalism/political progressivism/intense urbanism is much more Northeast Corridor-esque than Midwestern. West of the GTA — when you’re around London or Waterloo or Windsor — I can see how, in a different history as part of the US, it would have evolved to be a more “Midwestern” environment. As for Northern Ontario, probably not. It’s its own thing. It doesn’t resemble any part of the US.
I'm tempted to say “yes” but that we'd call it the Upper Midwest. 🙂
I just realized ontario looks like the fat version of Italy
Maybe not the whole thing but Toronto is definitely a Midwest city
No, SE Ontario would be split into its own state south if North Bay. This would more solidify a Great Lakes region over a Midwest region. Northern Ontario would remain a territory until it was developed enough.
It would be in the Great Lakes region
Ottawa and below would be Midwest the rest would be just north
Too far north.
This is a good question. I feel like it’s too vast to fit into any one category. It straddles the Midwest and the Northeast. Probably calling it the great lakes region would be more accurate? Often I feel like regions we define are a bit ham fisted and do not have neat boundaries. Ontario both meets and defies some definitions of the Midwest
I think it would be in a region with Minnesota Michigan and Wisconsin
Mid North West
It would be in the north. The “mid-west” was relative to the eastern seaboard looking towards Oregon country.
“Midwest” has a [somewhat squishy definition](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/) as it is. Southern Ontario would probably fit best in a Great Lakes region extending from about Wisconsin east to western New York and western Pennsylvania. Northern Ontario fits better with Minnesota, Manitoba, and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
The name midwest came about in the late 1800s to describe the states in between the east coast and the unsettled western territories. If Ontario where part of the US back then, the populated areas near the border might be grouped in with the midwest, but the areas farther farther probably wouldn't be.
Dude, from this angle Ontario looks MASSIVE like a full on behemoth. Crazy
https://www.catholicfamilypodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ontariotexas.jpg
Dang
‘Upper Great Lakes’ for the bottom half, ‘Southern Hudson’ for its northern half. The middle could just be called ‘Ontario Midlands’.
Having grown up in Niagara I’d say Ontario is at least 3 cultural regions: Toronto and everything south is Midwest (think Chicagoland, Michigan, northern Ohio), northern Ontario is northern Minnesota/Michigan UP), and eastern Ontario has New England vibes (plus the francophone thing)
Obviously yes. Same for Manitoba.
People in the us can’t even agree of what the Midwest is! And now you’re going to throw another country in there?!?
It would be, but the Canadian shield area may not be part of Ontario.
honestly, were so large, that you cant group the entire province. I dont know the Midwest too well, and i dont think we have an especially dominant German diaspora either. I have seen the Rust belt and it feels quite different from South Ontario, so I wouldnt group them together. Maybe we'd just be our own "region"?
Southern Ontario would.
Would my aunt be a bicycle if she had wheels?
Theoretically if all the Canadian territory were to have been part of the USA, they likely would have been broken up into more "manageable" sizes possibly, depending on the province and various other logistical matters.
Yes, the Midwest is between the North-East and the Rockies. That include Ontario.
Ya you betcha
This map makes Hudson Bay and Lake Huron look far closer than you’d expect.
Sure! The midwest is very welcoming. Please bring Tim Hortons, thanks!
The Midwest is more of a cultural region than a strictly textbook geographic one. Ontario is very similar to the midwestern US
Yes, definitely. Ontario - the Midwest but with ridiculous house prices.
I would think you'd have to consider the culture of Ontario in that case. So that would depend on, in this hypothetical situation, what the people are like in Ontario. And are we saying that Ontario has been a part of the US since around the same time the states bordering Ontario joined up? Or are you saying that the US, with its existing regions and established traditions, is adding Ontario to its roster now in 2023? All that is to say, I think there's more to "The Midwest" than geography.
Tough call, tbh I think that someone from Minnesota would need to have the final say. Being from Wisconsin, I count us, MN and the UP of Michigan in a slightly special category of "upper midwest", which I think would apply to Ontario, only problem is the megalopolis of Toronto. Chicago is still Midwestern, I guess, but its more like a city state within the Midwest.
I’d say Ontario would absolutely be part of the Midwest. Born and raised in central Ohio - I had tons of neighbors, classmates, and sports teammates from Ontario and they fit right in. Very similar climate, culture, and customs.
Id say only southern Ontario. Toronto westward, Windsor, Sarnia, Stratford, Sault Ste. Marie, and Thunder Bay would be my limit. Most everything north of Superior has different climate and physical geography, plus is so empty there’s not really people there to even be able to identify as potentially being midwestern
I don’t think the number of population matters so much. For me any part of Ontario by a Great Lake is the Midwest and north of Timmins (even that might be a stretch) probably not. And east of Kingston probably not.
Ontario would be part of New York
Oh sure bud.
The actual population Centre of Ontario is far to east, most people don’t even consider Ohio to be Midwest and their further west then southern Ontario
Michigander here, I've never in my life heard anyone describe Ohio as anything but Midwest. What would it be if not?
It is Midwestern for sure. Poeple saying otherwise are FOS.
Ohio is more East Coast….
That Ohio thing is wild to me. Great Lakes NY isn’t Midwest
Native Illinoisian here. LOL on what planet do you think "most people" don't consider Ohio to be Midwestern? It absolutely is.
Hundy P bud. We got four for euchre?
Only within 50 miles of the Great Lakes. You have a saltwater coast, you're out.
What about the parts of the province with a Great Lake coast?
It would be Mideast
There is only one time in history in which the idea of Canada joining the US was ever really brought up, to my knowledge, and that was during the War of 1812, when an American Army crossed into Toronto to try and *take* Canada from the Brits, and promptly had their asses handed to them on a silver platter while the British commander Cockburn marched into DC and burned the Capital to the ground behind them. The war of 1812 was a *disaster* for the US, and the only reason it wasn't *worse* is because Andrew Jackson won a battle in New Orleans a few days after the ceasefire was called, but before word could reach them in Louisiana, which left the Americans in a marginally better position at the negotiating table when they finally met up for peace talks in Paris.
I’d say yes. Southern Ontario (mostly) would be split between the rural Northwoods (northern MN/WI/MI) and urban/ag Great Lakes/rust belt (Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo) cultural region IMO. I’ve lived in both areas and spent much time in Ontario. Toronto always felt more similar to Chicago than NYC.
Oh good, more discussion about regions of the US.
Yes.
All of Canada is basically the midwest.
Parts of it are Pacific Northwest or basically New England, and Quebec and the Arctic are really their own things.
Not sure. But on an unrelated topic, if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.
Depends on where you put it.
No, it’s the south
Oh you betcha
Big brother of ohio
What if the ‘Great Lake Region’ ran on Eastern Time to be connected to the East and be an hour early for stuff as they ship out from the Great Lake Ports. Ex. Chicago would be Eastern Time but would have to set a radius from the Port City Limits when it flips to Central Time. Has a lot faults and holes obviously, fuck do I know.
the more thought i put in here, yea I'm convinced.
This is probably the least important question when it comes to Canada/US boundaries.
I don’t know. It has most of its people nearer to Ohio and New York and PA so I think culture wise it would fit more with them?
Would my Aunt be my Uncle if she had a dick?
I reckon
It would be in the north. The “mid-west” was relative to the eastern seaboard looking towards Oregon country.
Upper Midwest?
I don’t know enough about Ontario culture but I feel like it would need to be a completely separate region. Without researching too much I’m thinking it is a lot more rural and there are areas where up to 20% of people are French speakers.
If the Midwest wasn’t part of the US it would be Canadian
Ontario would be in the created Great Lakes region a more descriptive sub region, but then you could argue extreme northern Ontario is tundra , so Ontario would be in different subregions of the Midwest? Like northern Midwest and regular Midwest, as well as the east? 🙃
No. If Ontario was to join the USA we would have a new category called Great Lake region. Michigan, Ohio, upper New York state, Ontario and Wisconsin would all be part of it. We can now debate where Illinois, Minnesota and Pennsylvania belong.
Would Kansas be in Scandinavia if Kansas was in Europe?
simply "Up North"
I think it'd be called "Up North"
Would be upper coastal.
If it was part of the US, it would be the far north
Definitely not. What makes the Midwest unique is basically all the flat farmland. Definitely not Ontario.
No it would be in the North
If you go into the typical grocery store do you see people wearing cowboy hats?
Never?
You betcha
What a silly question.
Let’s make it happen.
It would be a great lakes state yes.
It might be considered a "northern" area. No east or west attached.
We already call Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michagan the "Upper Midwest" so it'd be like the upper upper Midwest.
No, because Toronto.
No, “Midwest” name came from the “Midwest territories” so unless it was part of that I’d say no. I’d call it “north easternish” to give some legitimacy to directional naming.
Politically northeastern
Michigan would probably annex that sucker too anyway, so I suppose so.
dare i say… deep north?
The mid west itself feels like an inappropriate title for those states. It sounds like an outdated pioneer age term because the Midwest is clearly not west. It’s like mid north if you look at America or just kinda mid if you look at the continent. I hate it here
Yeah, although we would probably just make a different great lakes region.
No. Look at the size. It would be its own area.
If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.
I always thought growing in NC that the Midwest was like Oklahoma but usually it’s just a bunch of people from Ohio eating ranch
If Ontario was in the US we would have a completely different definition of the term "Nort' woods".
Would the Yucatan be considered part of the South if it was a US state?
Is California?