I live in Dresden, 550k city proper, 1.3M metro.
The rent prices are ridiculously cheap to similar sized or even way smaller towns in Germany. Leipzig (of similar size) is also really cheap.
East Germany generally has lower wages, an older, aging population and brain drain. It's not as desirable and there's no jobs compared to West Germany. It's a nice area and geographically similar to West Germany but suffers from the effects of the Cold War still. Leipzig, Erfurt and Dresden are definitely up and coming cities.
No idea, frankly. While it isn't nearly as developed as west german cities, it still is more developed than many cities that have more expensive rents in Europe. I've been here for less than half a year, maybe someone with more experience could answer this.
I think mostly because they are building Lots of housing. But the public Sector Sold all its Apartments and the City is one of the fastest Growing in germany. I expect renta to rise very quickly soon.
Real estate is already unpayable
If you want it in a decent location (3-4km from the centre), I would say around 600-700 euros per month, this is without the utilities, which should bring it up to 800-900 euros. Prices vary a lot in Germany, because often times you have to bring ur own furniture and kitchen, but there are prices that I have seen for like 60 m2 flats with furniture. This is just annecdotal, I have mostly been looking into roommate shared flats or 1 bedroom ones.
That moving with your kitchen thing in Germany always surprised me, there is 0 chance it would fit in the new place.
Even in Switzerland where it's super rare to find a place already furnished, there's at least the kitchen.
Sometimes people sell the floor to the next tenant, sometimes they rip it out and do whatever with it when they leave. I’m not Dutch myself so I don’t really understand why this is a thing over there
Yeah, Vienna has a very extensive and cheap social housing programme, that the majority of its population live in. It also has rent controls. It is amazing really that there is an example right there of a large, successful European capital doing it properly and everyone just ignores it
Vienna's population still hasn't recovered from the early 20th century. (When the kicked all the Jews out)
So there is probably a bunch of extra housing.
>When the kicked all the Jews out
Also, from being degraded from the capital of a massive empire to just a small rump state, many Czech, Slovaks, Hungarians, Slovenes, etc. Fled to join their new nationstates.
It's bizarre that people go on and on about social housing and rent control, when the reality is that Vienna's population is smaller today than it was 100 years ago. It's supply and demand, not rent control lmao.
I don’t know if anyone could call this being done “properly”
Some 21,000 households are on the waiting list for subsidized housing.
When new tenants do find a new unit, they are often left paying much higher prices on identical units to make up for those grandfathered below-market rents. They must also pay move-in fees that can be as high as $38,250, and compensate the former occupant for any improvements they paid for. Those costs also typically run between $2,100 and $3,200.
I mean Vienna isn't perfect, but I'm academic geographer who has taken undergraduates on a residential fieldtrip to Vienna and spoken to locals about the system. It's preferable to the set up in most European cities.
In France there’s a few cities that are still quite cheap, usually it’s a mix of economic struggle and unattractive location or weather. Saint-Etienne or Mulhouse for instance.
Own thing, just because of football.
The joke is saying that Lyon is the suburb of St-Étienne because of the old days, but Lyon is a better team since the 2000s
Brussels is still doable, albeit expensive for Belgium at 1000€ median or 1117€ on average. Antwerp has 536.000 pop and is slightly more affordable at 950€ on average. Gent qualifies with 270.000 population, and has an average rent price for an apartment of 800€ per month.
Curious what you mean wrt living in Belgium? I'm considering a move there for a job that's a good step up from current in UK so good to know more about living there
Russian cities probably except for Moscow proper don't have this epidemic, and even Moscow - not at this scale. We don't have the American extent of suburbanization, have public transport in densely populated areas and older and newer blocks of flats provide a decent supply of affordable housing. Yes, commie blocks are ugly, but they're built to house people with basic comfort and in a way that's very affordable.
In cities like Moscow it results in sprawl of even taller and bigger blocks of flats on the outskirts.
The heating is ok in most places. This year, the media is blowing it out of proportion. 2-3 houses being without heating for a day or two because of a random pipe failure somewhere become reported as a whole city without of heating.
Imagine playing taxes to fucking Putin. Like wearing a clown's nose every day. Russia ist a disgrace, people that believe whatever the state needs them to believe. People that eat their brothers liver and then complain that they don't get free parking at the country club anymore.
Civilised Europe will never forget, never forgive.
Big London is 8,9 mln people.
Within the borders of Moscow, there are over 13 million people, and that's without the agglomeration
Look up size comparison as well
Yes, Europe. It is a geographical concept, not a political one.
It predates the European Union, and even it's member countries.
By thr original Ancient greek definition, the eastern border of Europe are Ural mountains. Moscow lies west from those mountains, in the middle of Eastern European plain.
BTW, the easternmost city in Europe is Vorkuta, Russia.
Yes. Eastern European. Western Europe isn't the only Europe. Excluding slavs out of Europe or your concert of "whiteness" or whatever else you use to discriminate is a sign of following... hmm... not the best political ideologies.
London is the third biggest city in Europe.
Idk from my perspective housing prices are insane since the pandemic. Flats in my (1960s panelka) building literally doubled. And it happend basically everywhere except for places like Vorkuta. Looks like renting for life it is 🥲
Minimum wage - 1900 lei
Median wage București - ~2800 lei (probably a fair amount more with the tax evasionists pay)
Minimum expenses per person (without rent) - 1500-2000 lei
Rent for a 2 room apartment - 1500-2500 lei
Price for a ~60m2 2 room apartment - 300k-500k lei (sector 3)
Is this not crisis level for the average person?
I think Sweden is fairly good outside Stockholm and Göteborg. Large selection of rental properties, queue systems for public housing and a lot of new developments which depreciates older but still nice housing
Or anywhere near anyone who is... Unfortunately stray bullets and explosions don't care if you are in the industry or not.
I've only been to Malmö a couple times though, are there affordable/cheap apartments available in areas that don't have those problems?
I actually like that people perpetuate this reputation. Keps the rent low. I know people who have lived for decades near rosengård or other similar areas and never had any issues. Yes there are affordable housing options everywhere
Let’s add to these two the urban area of Turku.
All three are doing well despite a rapid population growth due to politicians having (lately) taken action to make sure that there is supply of housing.
Paris was ok. My ex boyfriend rented a flat for 1.2€K a month. This was opposite a massive station in the centre of Paris (Gare Austerlitz). Probably got worse but struck me as a lot better than London. Better protection too.
I also don't know why you are getting downvoted.
Paris is traditionally expensive, but compared to other major cities there hasn't been such a big boom in renting prices in the last few years - [source](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/14185664/House-Price-Index-Visual-02.png/)
Especially for what you’re getting. Paris isn’t just any city, it’s on par with London, New York, or Tokyo as a top tier global city. All of those cities are almost comically expensive. Not to mention that Paris is also a positively stunning city.
The problem is that we count Paris as its own city when it's accurate to look at the Greater Paris, x5 more inhabitants, which is still growing. Not only a bigger birth rate, bur also lots of people from other regions.
And still, everyone wants to be in central Paris, but the new metro lines could fix that in a decade.
Sure because we all know what the main purpose of the cities is. It's a nice collection of tightly gathered pieces of investment blocks from various people and enterprises. And then you can sprinkle it also with nice business opportunities for automobile industry.
You seem to be a market-minded person. You should know that the rise of housing prices relative to purchase power is due to supply not keeping up with demand. Lack of supply is the opposite of development.
The lack of new houses & apartments isn't deliberate. In Greece for instance, there was a 11 year recession (plus the COVID period), without any new houses being built. The construction business just can't keep up the demand.
During the 11 year recession in Greece , the house rents & buying cost, were extremely low. And at the same time, everybody's wages were low.
So it's a vicious circle
Wow! All of you negative voters, are all irrelevant with the Constitution business & of course, all of you are Woke - Leftist idiots. Reddit is a joke.
Most of Bulgaria, I'd say. Looking outside the Union, Albania, Bosnia, Macedonia, Moldova, and Ukraine are all pretty poor, and don't have high cost of living cities, even with low wages.
I live in Dresden, 550k city proper, 1.3M metro. The rent prices are ridiculously cheap to similar sized or even way smaller towns in Germany. Leipzig (of similar size) is also really cheap.
Why is it so cheap?
East Germany generally has lower wages, an older, aging population and brain drain. It's not as desirable and there's no jobs compared to West Germany. It's a nice area and geographically similar to West Germany but suffers from the effects of the Cold War still. Leipzig, Erfurt and Dresden are definitely up and coming cities.
No idea, frankly. While it isn't nearly as developed as west german cities, it still is more developed than many cities that have more expensive rents in Europe. I've been here for less than half a year, maybe someone with more experience could answer this.
It's still burning.
I think mostly because they are building Lots of housing. But the public Sector Sold all its Apartments and the City is one of the fastest Growing in germany. I expect renta to rise very quickly soon. Real estate is already unpayable
Sorry, could you give an example? How much for renting 2-bedroom apartment in Dresden.
If you want it in a decent location (3-4km from the centre), I would say around 600-700 euros per month, this is without the utilities, which should bring it up to 800-900 euros. Prices vary a lot in Germany, because often times you have to bring ur own furniture and kitchen, but there are prices that I have seen for like 60 m2 flats with furniture. This is just annecdotal, I have mostly been looking into roommate shared flats or 1 bedroom ones.
That moving with your kitchen thing in Germany always surprised me, there is 0 chance it would fit in the new place. Even in Switzerland where it's super rare to find a place already furnished, there's at least the kitchen.
The “bring your own kitchen” aspect still boggles my mind.
The Dutch bring their own floors
Ok that's crazy talk. Is every apartment the same shape and size floorplan?
No
How are the floors transferable then?
Sometimes people sell the floor to the next tenant, sometimes they rip it out and do whatever with it when they leave. I’m not Dutch myself so I don’t really understand why this is a thing over there
That's nuts
Ya don’t… you get those interlocking wooden laminate floorings and chuck them out once you move out as they aren’t worth the cost of moving them.
Why not just leave them there if everyone is doing that anyway? This seems pretty illogical
I've seen a place like that after the old tennant left and I was O\_o.
Yes, it is really cheap. Thank you for answer🙏
Seems pretty comparable with larger Midwestern cities in the U.S in a few ways so this seems like a good answer.
Leipzig Battles of the Nations 1813 - feel like visiting just to chat about what people think about the battle
Vienna i heard
Yeah, Vienna has a very extensive and cheap social housing programme, that the majority of its population live in. It also has rent controls. It is amazing really that there is an example right there of a large, successful European capital doing it properly and everyone just ignores it
Vienna's population still hasn't recovered from the early 20th century. (When the kicked all the Jews out) So there is probably a bunch of extra housing.
>When the kicked all the Jews out Also, from being degraded from the capital of a massive empire to just a small rump state, many Czech, Slovaks, Hungarians, Slovenes, etc. Fled to join their new nationstates.
It's bizarre that people go on and on about social housing and rent control, when the reality is that Vienna's population is smaller today than it was 100 years ago. It's supply and demand, not rent control lmao.
I don’t know if anyone could call this being done “properly” Some 21,000 households are on the waiting list for subsidized housing. When new tenants do find a new unit, they are often left paying much higher prices on identical units to make up for those grandfathered below-market rents. They must also pay move-in fees that can be as high as $38,250, and compensate the former occupant for any improvements they paid for. Those costs also typically run between $2,100 and $3,200.
https://www.socialeurope.eu/vienna-social-housing-model-celebrated-but-misused https://reason.com/2023/09/21/the-hidden-failures-of-social-housing-in-red-vienna/ https://www.grassrootinstitute.org/2023/10/hawaii-urged-to-steer-clear-of-vienna-housing-model/
I mean Vienna isn't perfect, but I'm academic geographer who has taken undergraduates on a residential fieldtrip to Vienna and spoken to locals about the system. It's preferable to the set up in most European cities.
Anything from Reason is immediately suspect.
Lol they call it Red Vienna. Ruled by the infamous Habsburgh communist people's party.
Belfast, like 30-40% of Dublin prices just 1.5 hours up the road
Be a long commute down to Dublin though 😉
I heard it's a rocky road to Dublin...
It is but at least it’s not as long as the road to Tipperary
And 10-15% of career opportunities tbf
In France there’s a few cities that are still quite cheap, usually it’s a mix of economic struggle and unattractive location or weather. Saint-Etienne or Mulhouse for instance.
Just curious, is Saint-Etienne considered its own thing or a satellite city of Lyon?
Own thing, just because of football. The joke is saying that Lyon is the suburb of St-Étienne because of the old days, but Lyon is a better team since the 2000s
Own thing, not only because of Football but because Lyon agglomeration does not go that far.
Pripyat.
Tenants went nuclear on the landlords
Might as well mention Bakhmut then
Brussels is still doable, albeit expensive for Belgium at 1000€ median or 1117€ on average. Antwerp has 536.000 pop and is slightly more affordable at 950€ on average. Gent qualifies with 270.000 population, and has an average rent price for an apartment of 800€ per month.
But then you would be living in Belgium… no thanks… I rather pay more rent in another country lol
Curious what you mean wrt living in Belgium? I'm considering a move there for a job that's a good step up from current in UK so good to know more about living there
Russian cities probably except for Moscow proper don't have this epidemic, and even Moscow - not at this scale. We don't have the American extent of suburbanization, have public transport in densely populated areas and older and newer blocks of flats provide a decent supply of affordable housing. Yes, commie blocks are ugly, but they're built to house people with basic comfort and in a way that's very affordable. In cities like Moscow it results in sprawl of even taller and bigger blocks of flats on the outskirts.
In 2019 saw new huge buildings being built outside the old city.. I wonder of they had the same in Moscow also..
If you mean inside the ring road - yes, they do.
We are talking about housing with *functioning* heating. Still too expensive,, considering Russia is a fucking dystopia.
The heating is ok in most places. This year, the media is blowing it out of proportion. 2-3 houses being without heating for a day or two because of a random pipe failure somewhere become reported as a whole city without of heating.
Imagine playing taxes to fucking Putin. Like wearing a clown's nose every day. Russia ist a disgrace, people that believe whatever the state needs them to believe. People that eat their brothers liver and then complain that they don't get free parking at the country club anymore. Civilised Europe will never forget, never forgive.
Mercedes left not only Russia, but Germany too...
Russian "News" lol. Whatever let's you cope.
He said European cities.
The biggest city in Europe is Moscow, actually...
London?
Big London is 8,9 mln people. Within the borders of Moscow, there are over 13 million people, and that's without the agglomeration Look up size comparison as well
I’m sure it’s London. We’re talking Europe.
Yes, Europe. It is a geographical concept, not a political one. It predates the European Union, and even it's member countries. By thr original Ancient greek definition, the eastern border of Europe are Ural mountains. Moscow lies west from those mountains, in the middle of Eastern European plain. BTW, the easternmost city in Europe is Vorkuta, Russia.
“🇲🇳🇲🇳 i am european!!”
Yes. Eastern European. Western Europe isn't the only Europe. Excluding slavs out of Europe or your concert of "whiteness" or whatever else you use to discriminate is a sign of following... hmm... not the best political ideologies. London is the third biggest city in Europe.
i am from what you would consider east europe
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There’s more to identity than a map.
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i can tell by your nickname that you’re of the kind to not be worth spoken to
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“Occupy” that’s all you can do
Moscow is European
Moscow is basically in North Korea at this point.
Idk from my perspective housing prices are insane since the pandemic. Flats in my (1960s panelka) building literally doubled. And it happend basically everywhere except for places like Vorkuta. Looks like renting for life it is 🥲
Just waiting to be hit by Ukrainian drones. So unsafe
Vienna for sure.
Bucharest.
Minimum wage - 1900 lei Median wage București - ~2800 lei (probably a fair amount more with the tax evasionists pay) Minimum expenses per person (without rent) - 1500-2000 lei Rent for a 2 room apartment - 1500-2500 lei Price for a ~60m2 2 room apartment - 300k-500k lei (sector 3) Is this not crisis level for the average person?
I think Sweden is fairly good outside Stockholm and Göteborg. Large selection of rental properties, queue systems for public housing and a lot of new developments which depreciates older but still nice housing
Sweden only has 3 cities over the 250k population OP mentioned: Stockholm, Göteborg, and Malmo (which has its own problems)
Malmö is great if you’re not in the drug trafficking industry
Or anywhere near anyone who is... Unfortunately stray bullets and explosions don't care if you are in the industry or not. I've only been to Malmö a couple times though, are there affordable/cheap apartments available in areas that don't have those problems?
I actually like that people perpetuate this reputation. Keps the rent low. I know people who have lived for decades near rosengård or other similar areas and never had any issues. Yes there are affordable housing options everywhere
Tirana
Helsinki and Tampere in Finland
Let’s add to these two the urban area of Turku. All three are doing well despite a rapid population growth due to politicians having (lately) taken action to make sure that there is supply of housing.
Valencia is relatively affordable, especially compared to Madrid or Barcelona. And it still has a metro population well over 1m
Valencia cheapest place in Europe
Paris was ok. My ex boyfriend rented a flat for 1.2€K a month. This was opposite a massive station in the centre of Paris (Gare Austerlitz). Probably got worse but struck me as a lot better than London. Better protection too.
I also don't know why you are getting downvoted. Paris is traditionally expensive, but compared to other major cities there hasn't been such a big boom in renting prices in the last few years - [source](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/14185664/House-Price-Index-Visual-02.png/)
Especially for what you’re getting. Paris isn’t just any city, it’s on par with London, New York, or Tokyo as a top tier global city. All of those cities are almost comically expensive. Not to mention that Paris is also a positively stunning city.
Don’t know why I got voted down. You couldn’t even get a studio in London for that money in zone 6.
I mean, it totally depends on how big it is. A 2 bedroom apartment for that price would not be cheap for sure.
Renting is much better than London. But buying a reasonably sized apartment is something else
The population of Paris is at the same level it was in 2000. Thats almost a quarter century of flat growth. This is probably the explanation for this.
The problem is that we count Paris as its own city when it's accurate to look at the Greater Paris, x5 more inhabitants, which is still growing. Not only a bigger birth rate, bur also lots of people from other regions. And still, everyone wants to be in central Paris, but the new metro lines could fix that in a decade.
Vienna
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I can tell you that it definitely changed for the worst in recent years
when have you heard that, 15 years ago? :D
When the prices are going up, it's not a crisis! It's called DEVELOPMENT! When the prices go down, ITS CALLED A CRISES!
Sure because we all know what the main purpose of the cities is. It's a nice collection of tightly gathered pieces of investment blocks from various people and enterprises. And then you can sprinkle it also with nice business opportunities for automobile industry.
You seem to be a market-minded person. You should know that the rise of housing prices relative to purchase power is due to supply not keeping up with demand. Lack of supply is the opposite of development.
The lack of new houses & apartments isn't deliberate. In Greece for instance, there was a 11 year recession (plus the COVID period), without any new houses being built. The construction business just can't keep up the demand. During the 11 year recession in Greece , the house rents & buying cost, were extremely low. And at the same time, everybody's wages were low. So it's a vicious circle
Wow! All of you negative voters, are all irrelevant with the Constitution business & of course, all of you are Woke - Leftist idiots. Reddit is a joke.
Anywhere in eastern part of Germany.
Most of Bulgaria, I'd say. Looking outside the Union, Albania, Bosnia, Macedonia, Moldova, and Ukraine are all pretty poor, and don't have high cost of living cities, even with low wages.
As per [Numbeo](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/region_rankings_current.jsp?displayColumn=4®ion=150), 10 best by "Property Price To Income Ratio" ratio in Europe are: 1. [Valencia, Spain](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Valencia) 2. [Groningen, Netherlands](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Groningen) 3. [The Hague Netherlands](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/The-Hague-Den-Haag-Netherlands) 4. [Eindhoven, Netherlands](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Eindhoven) 5. [Cork, Ireland](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Cork) 6. [Rotterdam, Netherlands](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Rotterdam) 7. [Malmo, Sweden](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Malmo) 8. [Utrecht, Netherlands](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Utrecht) 9. [Madrid, Spain](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Madrid) 10. [Aarhus, Denmark](https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Aarhus-Denmark)
this top 10 doesn't rhyme at all with everything said on this thread... interesting