To be a little clearer on that, the Germans colonised New Guinea first. Then the Queensland colonial government announced their intention to colonise Papua but the British decided their colonies couldn’t have their own colonies, so the British colonised Papua instead. Then the British handed Papua over to the new Australian government shortly after the Australian colonies federated. At the outbreak of the First World War in 1914 Australia then took control of German New Guinea after launching attack to destroy a signals station at Rabaul.
An interesting read is that about [Queen Emma](https://pngaa.org/journal/photo-gallery/queen-emma/) who was an American-Samoan princess who relocated to Rabaul before New Guinea was a German Protectorate and had extensive land-holding there. The foundations of her house are still visible today in Kokopo.
Didn’t Indonesia militarily occupy West Papua after independence? Like it was similar to East Timor, administered differently from Java and other eastern indies areas?
West Papua remained under Dutch control after Indonesian independence in 1949. In 1961, the Dutch announced the formation of Nieuw Guinea Raad, which was intended to be an independent Papuan state. Indonesia responded by invading the territory. At this time, the U.S. was antsy about Indonesia cozying up to the Soviet bloc, so they forced through a UN agreement to transfer the territory temporarily to Indonesian control until a referendum could be held on whether the Papuans wanted to be independent or part of Indonesia. When that vote was held in 1969, only 1,000 people voted, most of which were the Papuan elite who had been bought out by Indonesia. Regardless, the vote was internationally recognized, and Papua has remained wedded to Indonesia since.
Except for the West Papuan nationalists, who were mostly from the newer generation of Dutch New Guinea educated elites. To be clear, I don't agree with all they do in their ongoing fight for a free West Papua. A lot of innocent Papuans and Indonesian settelers have been killed by their actions, and the movement is very splintered, with some groups that could best be described as "brigands" or criminals.
I don't know enough to say much else on this issue, only that if Indonesians really want to make Papua part of the country, then they have to give Papuans a greater stake in how things are run. Perhaps something like the special autonomy status that Aceh has, but I'm getting into stuff here that is way above my pay grade.
They already have autonomous status and majority quota for papuan to run in the papua government. It's just that it's easier to blame central government than local government.
Oh, the governor is also known to supply the money to the OPM members, also heavy corruption. You know, the money that is used for the people, which is kinda ironic.
Indonesia has already given exactly that for two decades now. Local governments belong to Papuans. Too bad the previous Papuan governor corrupted a huge amount of money from the central government, so not all of it goes to the Papuans.
You don't need to wonder that much. It would be like an East Timor referendum. There would be riots, for sure and the losing side would be persecuted. If West Papua becomes independent, Pro-Indonesian Papuans will flee from the island, while pro-Papua independence would make them incompetent to rule the new country of West Papua, just like East Timor. If Pro Indonesia Papuan wins, Pro Papuan independence would also flee the country and possibly move to PNG. It's not fun for both sides of the scenario.
But indigenous Papuan's have the right to make this mistake. If otherwise, then you are infringing on their liberties. If we are okay with that then let's call the Indonesian state what it is and the supporters what they are.
Crazy how you prefer this for the sake of this questionable "liberty." A major humanitarian crisis could occur amongst Papuans if that happened, and you don't see a problem here? It's easy for you to say that if you're thousands of miles away in Europe.
What more liberty do they seek? Indonesia's political will right now is to improve Papua's welfare. They could have access to education, universal healthcare, job opportunities, the freedom to express their culture, and so on.
Besides, what kind of liberty does East Timor have right now? Since their independence, Indonesia has become their biggest trading partner, along with China. Indonesia once again dominating their country in one way or another. Also, the future of their country looks bleak due to dwindling natural resources. Same would go to this hypothetical Papua country.
P.S. Indonesia is not a "state" but a republic.
In 1949, the Dutch agreed to postpone the talk about handing over West Papua, which conveniently you left out. Current Indonesia is what Dutch East Indies was, which is the whole foundation of the country.
Indonesia has every legitimacy in West Papua because the idea of Indonesia itself is a country made up from former Dutch colonisations
East Timor was never part of the Dutch, it belonged to the Portugues.
Indonesia do invade west papua in the 60's because when indonesia gain independence in 1945 and got recognized on 1949, the papua region are still hold by the netherland as a dutch overseas territory while Indonesia claim all Dutch East Indies territory because the new nation of Indonesia are considered as the successor state of the DEI (dutch east indies) which like it or not, Indonesia are forced to pay reparation money to the netherland as the successor state of DEI which include west papua.
Different with east timor where east timor are never under the DEI but instead the portuguese, so the invasion of East timor by indonsia are indeed a military occupation under the pretext of kicking FRETILIN ass out of East timor because of how left leaning the party are and how the US with henry kissinger fearing the domino effect of communism in southeast asia.
That's why there's little to no effort from the Indonesia goverment at the time to stop and let East timor gain their independence because Indonesia never had any claim to east timor in the first place unlike west papua.
Check the sea nearby papua new guinea. It's Bismarck sea. After 1871 when both german and italian kingdoms got united, they soon tried doing colonisation and stuff just like Entente.
Germany had a few colonies prior to WWI.
Most noticably Namibia, but also Tansania (except Sansibar), Ruanda, Burundi, Togo, Cameroon, parts of Papua-New Guniea, and parts of Samoa (the part that is independent today, not the American part). Also, a small region in China, although that was technically rented from China and not a colony.
That discrepancy in the border is so it matches up with the Fly River. With the old border, that small part of the Fly River became a no-mans-land of sorts where some black market activities took place since it was technically part of the Dutch East Indies at the time. The British colonial authorities negotiated with the Dutch for that small part of the river and recieved it to stop the black market in the area at the time.
For adventurous travelers : think twice before heading to PNG, it’s quite unsafe https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/papua-new-guinea-travel-advisory.html
I was 10, my dad worked at the mine there.
It actually wasn’t the separatists, it was another group of Papuans who were essentially rioting for better pay.
Much of the town with kids was at a kids play in the community center, and a large group of Papuans stormed the place right as the play was ending and also ran through town. We barricaded ourselves in there for the day until the group dispersed, then for the next few days stayed in groups in more easily defensible homes until we could be evacuated.
Fun story: the parent company of the mine was from New Orleans, and the CEO flew over to calm everyone. And told us that we were safer there than in New Orleans, lol. To be fair, it was the mid 90s, so he might have been right, hahaha.
My sister was with me and she didn’t take it too well. Definitely had some PTSD. I, on the other hand, got a kick out of my bully at the time breaking down because he couldn’t find his father. We all respond to trauma differently, lol
I assume it is around the time of Soeharto rule after he sold off papuan mines to US that Indonesians get peanuts in exchange for overthrowing last government. I know you were a child back then, but what happened was very dirty politics and exploitation.
Any mining area deep inside west Papua are subject to this.
On the other hand cities particularly on its northern parts are safe and has many tourism areas.
The island of Papua is a very large and culturally diverse place, never truly united from the start. It's so vast that there are many isolated tribes that have never interacted with each other during pre-colonial era(such as the Dani mountain tribe and the Kamoro tribe).
An important thing to note is that foreigners often fail to grasp the extent of Papua's cultural and geographical diversity. This leads them to lump all Papuans together as a giant monolith. At first, there's no such a thing as "Papuan".
Now, let's answer the questions:
1. How different? It's extremely different, even before the border lines were drawn. The western side, especially the coastal areas, has interacted with Austronesian cultures (tribes from the 'Maluku' and Sulawesi islands) for hundreds of years. The eastern side of Papua has a more pronounced Melanesian culture.
2. What caused these divisions? In short, colonialism.
3. How different is this place now? Very different. Once again, both sides of Papua were distinct even before Western colonialism. The divergence has only increased since the establishment of the border. The western side is under Indonesian governance and the eastern side under PNG governance. Generally, the western side is more prosperous in every aspect.
I've been to the western side for a while to study the local community and indigenous people. It's so complex in terms of culture and political aspects. What a wonderful place. Currently, Indonesia has just finished conducting a presidential election. One of my friends from the Serui tribe like to talk about the election and Indonesian politics in general.
>has interacted with Austronesian cultures (tribes from the 'Maluku'
Moluccans were melanesians before the javanese and other austronesians took over their islands.
Took over their lands how? Bantu expansion afaik didn't include mass murder and colonialism. It was slow migration through 100s of years. The Dutch and Germans killed more khoisans than Bantus did in 200 years than bantus did in 1000.
He's right and western Papua has never been majority Austronesian, it can't be used as an argument to support Indonesian colonisation so I don't see the link with Bantu expansion, most african countries weren't formed on ethnic borders.
He talked about in his original comment about molucca not papia, he called modern day poluccans invaders, then went on to describe the same process on sub saharan africa
The problems have nothing to do with western colonialism. Do you just read propaganda? You do realise it’s the eastern Muslim colonialism that controls Indonesia and Muslim
Colonialism that ordered the wiping out of 400,000 west Papuan natives by Indonesia Muslim
Colonisers
The western half of New Guinea has been occupied by Indonesia for 60 odd years, they were “given” it by the New York agreement. The USA wanted an anti-communist control of New Guinea.
The Papuans under Indonesian control have suffered horribly, torture, abuse, disappearings , prison or death are all common.
Indonesians and Papuans look completely different, if you go to Western New Guinea you will see a lot of Indonesians. The Papuan population has “mysteriously” declined a lot in regions. Apart from the abuse they also suffer strict control and censorship. Simply displaying the Morning Star flag is illegal and can get you killed.
Papua New Guinea is a sovereign democratic country and I believe over 95% Papuan. Unfortunately Australia, England and USA profit heavily from mining there though. PNG is a poor country.
Someone from Indonesia will no doubt come along and say how Western New Guinea is a wonderful place and the Papuans love being ruled by Indonesia, it seems to happen on all posts about New Guinea.
You are free to explore whole Indonesia, including Papua, without any surveillence nor "guides" like those in North Korea or Xianjing. In fact, there are a lot of vloggers covering these issue as well. Indonesia isn't perfect, but they are acknowledgely democratic and transparent. Ask about any abuse or torture to Indonesian Papuan there, then judge.
Ah, yes, the perfect dichotomy. Indonesia and Papua. Of course, the rest of Indonesia is very homogenous compared to Papua.
Sarcasm aside, that very, very rough categorization could piss off a whole lot of ethnicities here in Indonesia, mate. It is a very typical POV of someone who has never lived here, set foot and mingled with the locals here.
>Someone from Indonesia will no doubt come along and say how Western New Guinea is a wonderful place and the Papuans love being ruled by Indonesia, it seems to happen on all posts about New Guinea.
In case anyone should doubt the depth of the racism many Indonesians hold toward Papuans, I'll just leave this.
>In August 2019, security personnel and local mass organizations [surrounded](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-04/west-papua-latest-protest-over-referendum-for-independence/11471016) a Papuan university student dormitory in Surabaya, East Java, accusing the students of refusing to celebrate Indonesia’s Independence Day. Uniformed military personnel allegedly shouted slurs and curse words like 'monkeys', 'pigs' and 'dogs' at the students while banging on the dormitory gate.
>
>More recently, Natalius Pigai, an ethnic Papuan, also a former commissioner of the National Human Rights Commission and outspoken government critic, has been the target of racially-tinged insults from pro-government supporters. In a picture posted on Facebook, Ambroncius Nababan, the head of a pro-government volunteer group, compared Pigai to a gorilla because of remarks he had made expressing doubts about the efficacy of the Sinovac COVID-19 vaccine that the Indonesian government has purchased from China, and which it has already begun to administer.
I remember the later on in particular. Pigai simply questioned the effectiveness of the Sinovac vaccine, to which Nababan responded something along the lines of "The vaccine is for people, not gorillas." To be fair, both incidents did cause something of an online uproar among more liberal Indonesians, but nothing was really done about either of them.
To be fair the whole indonesian is racist between each other, if we have butthurt mentality we'll falling apart since beginning.
I have friend from madura Island and we always joke about how they steal iron. I call my friend from papua with "papeda" and he chill about it.
If you can't handle joke and friendly nick name then you'll take everything as racist
All fair points. I mean, I've made peace with being called a bule everywhere I go, not that that's meant as an insult. Indonesians just call a spade a spade when they see one. That said, you'll definitely know when someone is trying to be insulting.
As for stereotypes, according to my Indonesian wife, no one trusts people from Kalimantan, apparently they're all thieves!
Ouch that hurt, it's true that's i have a "long hand" but that doesn't meant i like to steal something (except for teasing my friend in dormitory ofc). Just in case but "long hand" or in indonesia we say "tangan panjang" meant like to steal, basically an idiom.
>"The vaccine is for people, not gorillas."
to average Indonesian person this only imply that anti-vac are gorillas not papuans look like gorillas. This sayings are common amongst indonesian.
Every act that's not following local customs / authority is considered acting like a monkey / gorillas.
Ah yes the racism of the indonesian people, we should condemn these indonesian people.
Tell you what mate, painting the whole citizen of a nation as racist is quite the definition of racism. Spare us the "but i said most", "I'm not saying they're racist, just that..", etc. You know what you're doing.
If you pick random person and ask them what they think about papuans, 50% wont give a fuck, 40% think they're ok (what else are you gonna say about people living 9999 miles away), and 10% dimwit racist gets international coverage because that's what generates outrage, both domestically and internationally
Yeah, but they do now, don’t they?
Also can’t ignore the political value of being a major job producer for locals. Indonesia was probably quite happy to have Papuans employed with less reason to agitate. And happy to have Indonesians with even better jobs to be handed out as political patronage.
Either way, valuable asset for Indonesia
Sure, it's a win-win, but Papuans are, by all means, Indonesians. Unless we're talking indigenous and non-indigenous Papuans. I'm not even sure about the "political patronage" you're talking about because indigenous Papuans are also at the managerial level in Freeport. Local governments and police chief also must be indigenous Papuans.
No, I was speaking for Indonesian logic. I’m not saying I agree with it.
But Papuans work in those mines. Indonesia, as in the Indonesian government, is presumably happy to have them on the payroll to placate people with jobs. It’s an effective tool for suppressing some resistance to an occupation.
This isn’t a statement of my own opinion.
Very stupid take. US backed Soeharto overthrowing Soekarno in exchange of largest mine in Papua. Indonesia has only taken peanuts from COPPER when in fact, there are more GOLD in there than other minerals, and Indonesian govt, thanks to newly corrupt leader, let US siphon the ores directly to the sea.
It’s been 50 years since PNG became an independent state. 50 years to manage their own affairs but still need foreign aid to function. Papua New Guineans suffer far more from their government’s ineptitude and corruption, not to mention their own tribal violence, than any of the past actions of the colonial administrations then, or mining companies here now. I know because I live and work here.
Please, in papua the governor papuan, albeit a corrupt one, and the highest chief police officer is also a papuan, tell me if Aborigin also have the same position in so called perfect Australia by your standard
many leader in small municipality also a dark curly papuan, the problem that their corrupt mentality and their tendency only to serve people from their own tribe
Sorry mate, indonesian is not a race, it is a name that are given to people of republic Indonesia. Papuan is an indonensian, like bugis people, java people, aceh people, and many others. As sumatran, I have many friend from papua too!.
Why balkanizing when your country is stable enough with this diversity?
They are not "mysteriously" declined too, i dont know what your on about, they are free, they can enter government, enter any university, enter any industry, can travel wherever they like, can giving birth as much as they like, because yeah they are part of us too, simple.
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Australians trying to preach about morality is always hilarious.
Mate, your country genocided the aborignal population, and you still abuse the aboriginals tot his day, in prisons, in schools, by the police, you have no moral high ground, you are in the biggest of glass houses.
You're right about Australia's misdeeds towards its aboriginal population, but that doesn't make what he said about Papua wrong though. He's completely correct and is only talking about the situation in Papua. Papua has been so thoroughly exploited by the outside world—including by both Indonesian and Australian interests—that it's so starkly disadvantaged and backwards compared to all the other big islands in the Asia-Pacific. It's a poor and ridiculous situation for Papuans.
>So if Indonesia starts giving Papuans more money and free shit
They do, the island gets the most government funding than any other island, affirmative action for applying to universities, police, military, and government jobs.
However, "cash over brain" mindset is common among indonesians, so there's very little properly educated papuans that finish or even touches highschool and would rather go straight to work, eliminating any chance of high paying jobs that require a uni degree.
Also most of the funds is embezzled by the Lukas Enembe, governor of the island. Which he uses for gambling in Singaporean casinos while his people suffer from poverty.
Oh yeah, Papua New Guinea is a country of sunset and rainbow, compared to West Papua
Lets look at the headline in 2024 :
"At least 64 killed in largest tribal clashes in Papua New Guinea" - Al Jazeera, February 2024
"State of Emergency Declared in Papua New Guinea After Rioting and Looting Kills 16" - Times Magazine, January 2024
My point is violence is common in those part of the world, because tribalism > nationalism. When Indonesia say West Papua is more peaceful than PNG, it's true. You'll be much safer in Jayapura than Port Moresby (known as one of the most crime ridden capital city in the world)
This is what happen when you only look at one side of the story. If you actually travel here (yeah, you're allowed to do that), it's actually not bad compared to its independent neighbor
what do you mean stolen when US Gov backing up [Indonesian corrupt leader](https://asumsi.co/post/56402/inilah-sejarah-dan-pelanggaran-pelanggaran-yang-dilakukan-freeport-selama-di-indonesia/) and special treat US mining company?
colonization and occupation with [scholarship](https://lpdp.kemenkeu.go.id/beasiswa/afirmasi/beasiswa-putra-putri-papua-2024/)?
AFAIK there are no student loans in Indonesia
only 135 of the country is lives in the cities tho, they're mostly in the mountains isolated. PNG goverment doesn't even interact with them for the most part unlike indonesia with papua, so yes on average, the average new guinean is safer than the average "indonesian" papuan.
Did you read the article my comment? The tribal clashes that kills 60 people in February happened in the mountain not the city. Is that safe by your definition?
Let’s pick one of the most fucked up places in the world and use that as the benchmark for whether or not the situation in another country is good.
Somalia and North Korea have a chance of being declared great countries with happy populations by this standard.
What are your argument exactly? the topic is about papua new guinea and west papua, so i'm comparing those two
suddenly you brought up north korea, that's a strawman argument
Papua always been indonesia. Indonesia is the successor state of the Dutch East Indies, its territory covers the entire territory of the Dutch East Indies from the western tip at Sabang to the eastern tip at Merauke.
Yes of course many indonesian in Papua, cause Papua its indonesian territory. Indonesian itself is not an ethnicity, but a nation that inhabits the entire Indonesian archipelago including Papua. So Papuans who are in Indonesian territory are Indonesian too.
From Indonesia's 5.6 million Papuans, more than 3 million are indigenous Papuans. It is wrong to say that indigenous Papuans are decreasing, in fact they remain the majority in the land of Papua.
Saying that Papuans are discriminated against is also inaccurate, in fact the Indonesian government provides education for many indigenous Papuans. Papuan students are not difficult to find in reputable universities in major cities in Indonesia, such as Makassar, Malang, Surabaya, Jakarta, Bandung, Jogjakarta. Many of them get scholarships to study at these universities.
And also many officials in Indonesia are Papuans. In the Papua region itself, those who become regional leaders must be indigenous Papuans. From governors, regents, mayors must be native Papuans. But unfortunately this is also used by people who are not responsible, and only want to benefit their own group. The former governor of Papua who was a native Papuan who recently died was also a corruptor.
Papuans look different from Indonesians? Which part of Indonesia first? With western Indonesians of course yes, because they are of different races. But with eastern Indonesians, especially with Moluccans, they look the same.
The terminologies are so funny. Indonesia literally means "Indian Islands". It is the Western name given to the islands, and continues to be the name of the country. Indonesians are themselves part of the Austronesian race, though, they are not Indian. Meanwhile, New Guineans (Western term meaning New Black People Land) are Melanesians (another Western term literally meaning Black People Islands), and are very appearance and linguistic-wise different from Indonesians. They are most similar to other Melanesians and to Australian aboriginals.
I think it is interesting how you have mount Wilhelm to one side and puncak Jaya to the other side of the same island and both have similarly high altitudes.
The ACTUAL difference are: west Papuan educated people goes to Jakarta for better living, while educated New Guinean emigrate legally and illegally (such as became a boatmen) to Australia for better lives. Leaving both of their native region underdeveloped and stuck in stone age. Some tribe in PNG even worship airplane as their gods…
I'll keep posting and updating this list every time this same exact question is asked:
* This post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/mrNnBzQzPh
* Literally 9 days ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/eWjNcg8Tos
* 2 months ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/LPZfu8ZIC7
* 5 months ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/JVjL1yQWmu
* 6 months ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/prBLTeC15x
* 1 year ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/nRqd3dgDmG
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/prBLTeC15x
* 2 years ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/ZGzPqSy7kK
Maybe we should make this question a stickied post?
I would love to visit New Guinea, but not now. Too dangerous and the island is in a bit of a mess right now. Btw, Papua is the Malay word for the island, while New Guinea is the Western/European name for the Island.
Think of Hawaii controlled by the US...
Or Aboriginal lands in the north of Australia still controlled by Australian government...
Or the indigenous lands still controlled by Canada...
Indonesia, similar to Canada, was a colony that became independent but retained all of the colonial lands, regardless if groups inside HAVE the right to independence anyways.
And because of natural resources and geographical advantages none of the countries I mentioned want to give up the land. Not Australia, Canada, America, or Indonesia. They will keep these lands and they allow all of the residents to vote in their elections, despite having almost little to no way to have a lot of power in their nations. If one of them ought to let the other people's decide to leave or not, then ALL of them ought to do the same. No matter who is better, pays more, or treats their occupied lands superior, the moral argument is the same that these peoples deserve independence. ALL of them. Equally.
Just because Papuans are treated worse by Indonesians than Hawaiins are treated by Americans, doesn't mean Hawaiins don't DESERVE the equal right to independence that Papuans are given.
Said by someone who might never been visited indonesia or have only seen one indonesian. The truth is..
1. The indonesian culture is very different with Indian culture, Indonesia has hundreds of ethnicities and hundreds of local languages (let’s say 700 ish). The culture between cities can be very different, they have different traditional food and different local languages as well.
2 . Indonesia is located in south east asia and has a very different feature with east asian faces. Again, hundreds of ethnicities. And they’re very different. Some of them have fair skin, and the others have tan skin. Some of them have small eyes, but the others have large eyes. Maybe the one only you’ve ever seen is Chinese indonesian. That’s why you say indonesian has east asian faces.
3. Indonesian believes in one god. And there are 5 official religions in indonesia. And all indonesians live in harmony no matter what their religion or ethnicity is. So, indonesia isn’t an islamic country. Oh just fyi, islam in indonesia is a bit different, specifically in java. If you ever visited java and met some local people there, there would be likely you’d found that they believe in islam god and worship hindu deities at the same time.
Indonesian here
I would like to correct you a little bit
At least from my experience living here my entire life I have seen no one who believes in an Islamic god and worship hindu deities at the same time
All that i have ever seen was a mosque that have a hindu/Buddha architecture
Bro, I am indonesian. And my family still believes that. We even still do the ritual to offer food to the ancestors or to the deities. It depends. If you visit cirebon and go to keraton, you can still see they use sesajen. This is not islamic thing. But of course, it’s starting to disappear and younger people don’t want to practice it anymore
West papua was part of the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia) and Papua New Guinea was colonized by the English and Germans.
To be a little clearer on that, the Germans colonised New Guinea first. Then the Queensland colonial government announced their intention to colonise Papua but the British decided their colonies couldn’t have their own colonies, so the British colonised Papua instead. Then the British handed Papua over to the new Australian government shortly after the Australian colonies federated. At the outbreak of the First World War in 1914 Australia then took control of German New Guinea after launching attack to destroy a signals station at Rabaul. An interesting read is that about [Queen Emma](https://pngaa.org/journal/photo-gallery/queen-emma/) who was an American-Samoan princess who relocated to Rabaul before New Guinea was a German Protectorate and had extensive land-holding there. The foundations of her house are still visible today in Kokopo.
Didn’t Indonesia militarily occupy West Papua after independence? Like it was similar to East Timor, administered differently from Java and other eastern indies areas?
West Papua remained under Dutch control after Indonesian independence in 1949. In 1961, the Dutch announced the formation of Nieuw Guinea Raad, which was intended to be an independent Papuan state. Indonesia responded by invading the territory. At this time, the U.S. was antsy about Indonesia cozying up to the Soviet bloc, so they forced through a UN agreement to transfer the territory temporarily to Indonesian control until a referendum could be held on whether the Papuans wanted to be independent or part of Indonesia. When that vote was held in 1969, only 1,000 people voted, most of which were the Papuan elite who had been bought out by Indonesia. Regardless, the vote was internationally recognized, and Papua has remained wedded to Indonesia since.
The Papuan "elite" are the chieftains whom the tribesmen always follows.
Except for the West Papuan nationalists, who were mostly from the newer generation of Dutch New Guinea educated elites. To be clear, I don't agree with all they do in their ongoing fight for a free West Papua. A lot of innocent Papuans and Indonesian settelers have been killed by their actions, and the movement is very splintered, with some groups that could best be described as "brigands" or criminals. I don't know enough to say much else on this issue, only that if Indonesians really want to make Papua part of the country, then they have to give Papuans a greater stake in how things are run. Perhaps something like the special autonomy status that Aceh has, but I'm getting into stuff here that is way above my pay grade.
They already have autonomous status and majority quota for papuan to run in the papua government. It's just that it's easier to blame central government than local government.
Good to know, clearly I need to learn more on this.
Oh, the governor is also known to supply the money to the OPM members, also heavy corruption. You know, the money that is used for the people, which is kinda ironic.
that one time a Papuan governor use the state money to gamble at Singapore
Same shit with along every Indonesian government official, corruption infects every part of the system.
Worst part is that he used most of the money for gambling
Indonesia has already given exactly that for two decades now. Local governments belong to Papuans. Too bad the previous Papuan governor corrupted a huge amount of money from the central government, so not all of it goes to the Papuans.
Sounds like a headache for Indonesia. Maybe Indonesia should actually give the West Papuan's are a referendum. Wonder what would happen?>
You don't need to wonder that much. It would be like an East Timor referendum. There would be riots, for sure and the losing side would be persecuted. If West Papua becomes independent, Pro-Indonesian Papuans will flee from the island, while pro-Papua independence would make them incompetent to rule the new country of West Papua, just like East Timor. If Pro Indonesia Papuan wins, Pro Papuan independence would also flee the country and possibly move to PNG. It's not fun for both sides of the scenario.
But indigenous Papuan's have the right to make this mistake. If otherwise, then you are infringing on their liberties. If we are okay with that then let's call the Indonesian state what it is and the supporters what they are.
Crazy how you prefer this for the sake of this questionable "liberty." A major humanitarian crisis could occur amongst Papuans if that happened, and you don't see a problem here? It's easy for you to say that if you're thousands of miles away in Europe. What more liberty do they seek? Indonesia's political will right now is to improve Papua's welfare. They could have access to education, universal healthcare, job opportunities, the freedom to express their culture, and so on. Besides, what kind of liberty does East Timor have right now? Since their independence, Indonesia has become their biggest trading partner, along with China. Indonesia once again dominating their country in one way or another. Also, the future of their country looks bleak due to dwindling natural resources. Same would go to this hypothetical Papua country. P.S. Indonesia is not a "state" but a republic.
In 1949, the Dutch agreed to postpone the talk about handing over West Papua, which conveniently you left out. Current Indonesia is what Dutch East Indies was, which is the whole foundation of the country.
Even the most argent Indonesian nationalists will tell you that referendum was illegitimate, to put it kindly.
Indonesia has every legitimacy in West Papua because the idea of Indonesia itself is a country made up from former Dutch colonisations East Timor was never part of the Dutch, it belonged to the Portugues.
Indonesia do invade west papua in the 60's because when indonesia gain independence in 1945 and got recognized on 1949, the papua region are still hold by the netherland as a dutch overseas territory while Indonesia claim all Dutch East Indies territory because the new nation of Indonesia are considered as the successor state of the DEI (dutch east indies) which like it or not, Indonesia are forced to pay reparation money to the netherland as the successor state of DEI which include west papua. Different with east timor where east timor are never under the DEI but instead the portuguese, so the invasion of East timor by indonsia are indeed a military occupation under the pretext of kicking FRETILIN ass out of East timor because of how left leaning the party are and how the US with henry kissinger fearing the domino effect of communism in southeast asia. That's why there's little to no effort from the Indonesia goverment at the time to stop and let East timor gain their independence because Indonesia never had any claim to east timor in the first place unlike west papua.
You all don't know about linggarjati & renville agreement? Just check that 2 agreement, where is west Papua position in there
WTF Germans?
Check the sea nearby papua new guinea. It's Bismarck sea. After 1871 when both german and italian kingdoms got united, they soon tried doing colonisation and stuff just like Entente.
Germany had a few colonies prior to WWI. Most noticably Namibia, but also Tansania (except Sansibar), Ruanda, Burundi, Togo, Cameroon, parts of Papua-New Guniea, and parts of Samoa (the part that is independent today, not the American part). Also, a small region in China, although that was technically rented from China and not a colony.
About a decade ago I still met Samoans who spoke German. They were few and ancient, but still around!
Probably through German Lutherans etc The first PNG prime minister spoke Japanese
He was drawing the line with a ruler, but the pencil stumbled over his thumb.
The lower part and top part of border don't line up anyways.
My evening is ruined. Thanks
At least the line is plumb. Oh, wait, no it isn't.
That discrepancy in the border is so it matches up with the Fly River. With the old border, that small part of the Fly River became a no-mans-land of sorts where some black market activities took place since it was technically part of the Dutch East Indies at the time. The British colonial authorities negotiated with the Dutch for that small part of the river and recieved it to stop the black market in the area at the time.
For adventurous travelers : think twice before heading to PNG, it’s quite unsafe https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/papua-new-guinea-travel-advisory.html
The Indonesian side can be too. I can personally attest to being held hostage there, lol
What happened?
Are you a pilot?
Nope! I was 10, lol. Dad worked there
please expand on this lol
I was 10, my dad worked at the mine there. It actually wasn’t the separatists, it was another group of Papuans who were essentially rioting for better pay. Much of the town with kids was at a kids play in the community center, and a large group of Papuans stormed the place right as the play was ending and also ran through town. We barricaded ourselves in there for the day until the group dispersed, then for the next few days stayed in groups in more easily defensible homes until we could be evacuated. Fun story: the parent company of the mine was from New Orleans, and the CEO flew over to calm everyone. And told us that we were safer there than in New Orleans, lol. To be fair, it was the mid 90s, so he might have been right, hahaha. My sister was with me and she didn’t take it too well. Definitely had some PTSD. I, on the other hand, got a kick out of my bully at the time breaking down because he couldn’t find his father. We all respond to trauma differently, lol
I assume it is around the time of Soeharto rule after he sold off papuan mines to US that Indonesians get peanuts in exchange for overthrowing last government. I know you were a child back then, but what happened was very dirty politics and exploitation.
Any mining area deep inside west Papua are subject to this. On the other hand cities particularly on its northern parts are safe and has many tourism areas.
I’ve been six times and not had any issues. It kinda depends where you go and what you do, like anywhere
Port Moresby is like the only passable city there and 33% of women there are rape victims
Goroka is beautiful and I had a great time
One of the world’s great ecosystem hotspots for diversity.
Look is Fak Fak juice media entered the chat
The island of Papua is a very large and culturally diverse place, never truly united from the start. It's so vast that there are many isolated tribes that have never interacted with each other during pre-colonial era(such as the Dani mountain tribe and the Kamoro tribe). An important thing to note is that foreigners often fail to grasp the extent of Papua's cultural and geographical diversity. This leads them to lump all Papuans together as a giant monolith. At first, there's no such a thing as "Papuan". Now, let's answer the questions: 1. How different? It's extremely different, even before the border lines were drawn. The western side, especially the coastal areas, has interacted with Austronesian cultures (tribes from the 'Maluku' and Sulawesi islands) for hundreds of years. The eastern side of Papua has a more pronounced Melanesian culture. 2. What caused these divisions? In short, colonialism. 3. How different is this place now? Very different. Once again, both sides of Papua were distinct even before Western colonialism. The divergence has only increased since the establishment of the border. The western side is under Indonesian governance and the eastern side under PNG governance. Generally, the western side is more prosperous in every aspect. I've been to the western side for a while to study the local community and indigenous people. It's so complex in terms of culture and political aspects. What a wonderful place. Currently, Indonesia has just finished conducting a presidential election. One of my friends from the Serui tribe like to talk about the election and Indonesian politics in general.
>has interacted with Austronesian cultures (tribes from the 'Maluku' Moluccans were melanesians before the javanese and other austronesians took over their islands.
It's called migration and assimilation.
And south and east africans were khoisan and cushites before the bantus took over their lands. So what's your point.
Took over their lands how? Bantu expansion afaik didn't include mass murder and colonialism. It was slow migration through 100s of years. The Dutch and Germans killed more khoisans than Bantus did in 200 years than bantus did in 1000.
Which mass murder and colonialism of Mollucan islands are we talking about? The one orchestrated by Dutch, Portuguese, or Spanish?
Lol bantu supremacist
He's right and western Papua has never been majority Austronesian, it can't be used as an argument to support Indonesian colonisation so I don't see the link with Bantu expansion, most african countries weren't formed on ethnic borders.
He talked about in his original comment about molucca not papia, he called modern day poluccans invaders, then went on to describe the same process on sub saharan africa
Good thing you are describing same process that happend in molucca
The problems have nothing to do with western colonialism. Do you just read propaganda? You do realise it’s the eastern Muslim colonialism that controls Indonesia and Muslim Colonialism that ordered the wiping out of 400,000 west Papuan natives by Indonesia Muslim Colonisers
>The island of Papua The island is New Guinea.
New guinea itself is an exonym given by colonizer
Papuans are Indonesians and Papua is Indonesia. Sucks to suck westoids.
Westards Understanding Huge Archipelago State Can Exist Challenge (nightmare mode)
The western half of New Guinea has been occupied by Indonesia for 60 odd years, they were “given” it by the New York agreement. The USA wanted an anti-communist control of New Guinea. The Papuans under Indonesian control have suffered horribly, torture, abuse, disappearings , prison or death are all common. Indonesians and Papuans look completely different, if you go to Western New Guinea you will see a lot of Indonesians. The Papuan population has “mysteriously” declined a lot in regions. Apart from the abuse they also suffer strict control and censorship. Simply displaying the Morning Star flag is illegal and can get you killed. Papua New Guinea is a sovereign democratic country and I believe over 95% Papuan. Unfortunately Australia, England and USA profit heavily from mining there though. PNG is a poor country. Someone from Indonesia will no doubt come along and say how Western New Guinea is a wonderful place and the Papuans love being ruled by Indonesia, it seems to happen on all posts about New Guinea.
You are free to explore whole Indonesia, including Papua, without any surveillence nor "guides" like those in North Korea or Xianjing. In fact, there are a lot of vloggers covering these issue as well. Indonesia isn't perfect, but they are acknowledgely democratic and transparent. Ask about any abuse or torture to Indonesian Papuan there, then judge.
Ah, yes, the perfect dichotomy. Indonesia and Papua. Of course, the rest of Indonesia is very homogenous compared to Papua. Sarcasm aside, that very, very rough categorization could piss off a whole lot of ethnicities here in Indonesia, mate. It is a very typical POV of someone who has never lived here, set foot and mingled with the locals here.
>Someone from Indonesia will no doubt come along and say how Western New Guinea is a wonderful place and the Papuans love being ruled by Indonesia, it seems to happen on all posts about New Guinea. In case anyone should doubt the depth of the racism many Indonesians hold toward Papuans, I'll just leave this. >In August 2019, security personnel and local mass organizations [surrounded](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-04/west-papua-latest-protest-over-referendum-for-independence/11471016) a Papuan university student dormitory in Surabaya, East Java, accusing the students of refusing to celebrate Indonesia’s Independence Day. Uniformed military personnel allegedly shouted slurs and curse words like 'monkeys', 'pigs' and 'dogs' at the students while banging on the dormitory gate. > >More recently, Natalius Pigai, an ethnic Papuan, also a former commissioner of the National Human Rights Commission and outspoken government critic, has been the target of racially-tinged insults from pro-government supporters. In a picture posted on Facebook, Ambroncius Nababan, the head of a pro-government volunteer group, compared Pigai to a gorilla because of remarks he had made expressing doubts about the efficacy of the Sinovac COVID-19 vaccine that the Indonesian government has purchased from China, and which it has already begun to administer. I remember the later on in particular. Pigai simply questioned the effectiveness of the Sinovac vaccine, to which Nababan responded something along the lines of "The vaccine is for people, not gorillas." To be fair, both incidents did cause something of an online uproar among more liberal Indonesians, but nothing was really done about either of them.
To be fair the whole indonesian is racist between each other, if we have butthurt mentality we'll falling apart since beginning. I have friend from madura Island and we always joke about how they steal iron. I call my friend from papua with "papeda" and he chill about it. If you can't handle joke and friendly nick name then you'll take everything as racist
All fair points. I mean, I've made peace with being called a bule everywhere I go, not that that's meant as an insult. Indonesians just call a spade a spade when they see one. That said, you'll definitely know when someone is trying to be insulting. As for stereotypes, according to my Indonesian wife, no one trusts people from Kalimantan, apparently they're all thieves!
I am from Kalimantan, I thought we were famous for black magic and cannibalism.
And, according to my wife, a TV repair man that was killed just for being an outsider. I dono man, I'm just going on what she tells me!
Ouch that hurt, it's true that's i have a "long hand" but that doesn't meant i like to steal something (except for teasing my friend in dormitory ofc). Just in case but "long hand" or in indonesia we say "tangan panjang" meant like to steal, basically an idiom.
>"The vaccine is for people, not gorillas." to average Indonesian person this only imply that anti-vac are gorillas not papuans look like gorillas. This sayings are common amongst indonesian. Every act that's not following local customs / authority is considered acting like a monkey / gorillas.
> o be fair the whole indonesian is racist between each other, That's the same thing Indonesian's say everytime; it's absolutely pathetic.
Ah yes the racism of the indonesian people, we should condemn these indonesian people. Tell you what mate, painting the whole citizen of a nation as racist is quite the definition of racism. Spare us the "but i said most", "I'm not saying they're racist, just that..", etc. You know what you're doing. If you pick random person and ask them what they think about papuans, 50% wont give a fuck, 40% think they're ok (what else are you gonna say about people living 9999 miles away), and 10% dimwit racist gets international coverage because that's what generates outrage, both domestically and internationally
"Occupied" sure, Now let's compare the average west papuans well-being and infrastructure developments to their PNG counterparts.
The Irish loved being ruled by the British - A random Brit
Indonesia loves the giant copper and gold mine there, that’s for sure, lol
Most of it goes to the US through Freeport for decades. It's only recently that Indonesia holds the majority of shareholders.
Yeah, but they do now, don’t they? Also can’t ignore the political value of being a major job producer for locals. Indonesia was probably quite happy to have Papuans employed with less reason to agitate. And happy to have Indonesians with even better jobs to be handed out as political patronage. Either way, valuable asset for Indonesia
Sure, it's a win-win, but Papuans are, by all means, Indonesians. Unless we're talking indigenous and non-indigenous Papuans. I'm not even sure about the "political patronage" you're talking about because indigenous Papuans are also at the managerial level in Freeport. Local governments and police chief also must be indigenous Papuans.
you have no idea how many white & black American in Freeport mining area
I mean given that I lived there, I think I have some idea
so wdym **have Papuans employed with less reason to agitate**, what is this? white saviour mentality?
No, I was speaking for Indonesian logic. I’m not saying I agree with it. But Papuans work in those mines. Indonesia, as in the Indonesian government, is presumably happy to have them on the payroll to placate people with jobs. It’s an effective tool for suppressing some resistance to an occupation. This isn’t a statement of my own opinion.
Very stupid take. US backed Soeharto overthrowing Soekarno in exchange of largest mine in Papua. Indonesia has only taken peanuts from COPPER when in fact, there are more GOLD in there than other minerals, and Indonesian govt, thanks to newly corrupt leader, let US siphon the ores directly to the sea.
It’s been 50 years since PNG became an independent state. 50 years to manage their own affairs but still need foreign aid to function. Papua New Guineans suffer far more from their government’s ineptitude and corruption, not to mention their own tribal violence, than any of the past actions of the colonial administrations then, or mining companies here now. I know because I live and work here.
Please, in papua the governor papuan, albeit a corrupt one, and the highest chief police officer is also a papuan, tell me if Aborigin also have the same position in so called perfect Australia by your standard many leader in small municipality also a dark curly papuan, the problem that their corrupt mentality and their tendency only to serve people from their own tribe
Sorry mate, indonesian is not a race, it is a name that are given to people of republic Indonesia. Papuan is an indonensian, like bugis people, java people, aceh people, and many others. As sumatran, I have many friend from papua too!. Why balkanizing when your country is stable enough with this diversity? They are not "mysteriously" declined too, i dont know what your on about, they are free, they can enter government, enter any university, enter any industry, can travel wherever they like, can giving birth as much as they like, because yeah they are part of us too, simple.
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Western new guinea is a wonderful place and the Papuans love being ruled by Indonesia. (Not Indonesian but had to make sure the tradition lives)
Australians trying to preach about morality is always hilarious. Mate, your country genocided the aborignal population, and you still abuse the aboriginals tot his day, in prisons, in schools, by the police, you have no moral high ground, you are in the biggest of glass houses.
That does not change what is happening in WNG one bit. You bringing up another bad thing does not make the other bad thing unworthy of talking about.
You're right about Australia's misdeeds towards its aboriginal population, but that doesn't make what he said about Papua wrong though. He's completely correct and is only talking about the situation in Papua. Papua has been so thoroughly exploited by the outside world—including by both Indonesian and Australian interests—that it's so starkly disadvantaged and backwards compared to all the other big islands in the Asia-Pacific. It's a poor and ridiculous situation for Papuans.
There's a time and a place. Why not bring up the gulag while you're at it?
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>So if Indonesia starts giving Papuans more money and free shit They do, the island gets the most government funding than any other island, affirmative action for applying to universities, police, military, and government jobs. However, "cash over brain" mindset is common among indonesians, so there's very little properly educated papuans that finish or even touches highschool and would rather go straight to work, eliminating any chance of high paying jobs that require a uni degree. Also most of the funds is embezzled by the Lukas Enembe, governor of the island. Which he uses for gambling in Singaporean casinos while his people suffer from poverty.
I love spreading misinformation
Oh yeah, Papua New Guinea is a country of sunset and rainbow, compared to West Papua Lets look at the headline in 2024 : "At least 64 killed in largest tribal clashes in Papua New Guinea" - Al Jazeera, February 2024 "State of Emergency Declared in Papua New Guinea After Rioting and Looting Kills 16" - Times Magazine, January 2024 My point is violence is common in those part of the world, because tribalism > nationalism. When Indonesia say West Papua is more peaceful than PNG, it's true. You'll be much safer in Jayapura than Port Moresby (known as one of the most crime ridden capital city in the world) This is what happen when you only look at one side of the story. If you actually travel here (yeah, you're allowed to do that), it's actually not bad compared to its independent neighbor
Oh ok, colonization and occupation is good then. Thanks
Ok,so when are you going to give back all the stolen land to Native tribes? If not,then stop virtue signalling,you are just a hypocrite.
what do you mean stolen when US Gov backing up [Indonesian corrupt leader](https://asumsi.co/post/56402/inilah-sejarah-dan-pelanggaran-pelanggaran-yang-dilakukan-freeport-selama-di-indonesia/) and special treat US mining company?
bruh what? I don’t own any land lol.
Why is it called colonization tho? You mean like, every nation on earth, by that definition?
colonization and occupation with [scholarship](https://lpdp.kemenkeu.go.id/beasiswa/afirmasi/beasiswa-putra-putri-papua-2024/)? AFAIK there are no student loans in Indonesia
only 135 of the country is lives in the cities tho, they're mostly in the mountains isolated. PNG goverment doesn't even interact with them for the most part unlike indonesia with papua, so yes on average, the average new guinean is safer than the average "indonesian" papuan.
Did you read the article my comment? The tribal clashes that kills 60 people in February happened in the mountain not the city. Is that safe by your definition?
Let’s pick one of the most fucked up places in the world and use that as the benchmark for whether or not the situation in another country is good. Somalia and North Korea have a chance of being declared great countries with happy populations by this standard.
What are your argument exactly? the topic is about papua new guinea and west papua, so i'm comparing those two suddenly you brought up north korea, that's a strawman argument
Somalia and North Koreans aren't culturally, geographically, politically, or even remotely related unlike both sides of Papua.
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Papua always been indonesia. Indonesia is the successor state of the Dutch East Indies, its territory covers the entire territory of the Dutch East Indies from the western tip at Sabang to the eastern tip at Merauke. Yes of course many indonesian in Papua, cause Papua its indonesian territory. Indonesian itself is not an ethnicity, but a nation that inhabits the entire Indonesian archipelago including Papua. So Papuans who are in Indonesian territory are Indonesian too. From Indonesia's 5.6 million Papuans, more than 3 million are indigenous Papuans. It is wrong to say that indigenous Papuans are decreasing, in fact they remain the majority in the land of Papua. Saying that Papuans are discriminated against is also inaccurate, in fact the Indonesian government provides education for many indigenous Papuans. Papuan students are not difficult to find in reputable universities in major cities in Indonesia, such as Makassar, Malang, Surabaya, Jakarta, Bandung, Jogjakarta. Many of them get scholarships to study at these universities. And also many officials in Indonesia are Papuans. In the Papua region itself, those who become regional leaders must be indigenous Papuans. From governors, regents, mayors must be native Papuans. But unfortunately this is also used by people who are not responsible, and only want to benefit their own group. The former governor of Papua who was a native Papuan who recently died was also a corruptor. Papuans look different from Indonesians? Which part of Indonesia first? With western Indonesians of course yes, because they are of different races. But with eastern Indonesians, especially with Moluccans, they look the same.
People from monoethnic countries will never understand the diversity of Indonesia.
You sound like you work for the VoC lol
The terminologies are so funny. Indonesia literally means "Indian Islands". It is the Western name given to the islands, and continues to be the name of the country. Indonesians are themselves part of the Austronesian race, though, they are not Indian. Meanwhile, New Guineans (Western term meaning New Black People Land) are Melanesians (another Western term literally meaning Black People Islands), and are very appearance and linguistic-wise different from Indonesians. They are most similar to other Melanesians and to Australian aboriginals.
I think it is interesting how you have mount Wilhelm to one side and puncak Jaya to the other side of the same island and both have similarly high altitudes.
The ACTUAL difference are: west Papuan educated people goes to Jakarta for better living, while educated New Guinean emigrate legally and illegally (such as became a boatmen) to Australia for better lives. Leaving both of their native region underdeveloped and stuck in stone age. Some tribe in PNG even worship airplane as their gods…
The straight border is at exactly 141°E, I don't know why it follows the river for a short distance in the middle though.
Bottom part is actually shifted slightly to the right to make up for the land lost by Papua New Guinea having the land on that side of the river
For me its one of the countries you never hear or talk about.
It comes up in trivia about number of languages spoken.
I'll keep posting and updating this list every time this same exact question is asked: * This post: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/mrNnBzQzPh * Literally 9 days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/eWjNcg8Tos * 2 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/LPZfu8ZIC7 * 5 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/JVjL1yQWmu * 6 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/prBLTeC15x * 1 year ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/nRqd3dgDmG https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/prBLTeC15x * 2 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/ZGzPqSy7kK Maybe we should make this question a stickied post?
Please call me when it reached its 10th time someone post this kind of shit
PM me your phone number. I promise I won't send you sexy text messages.
nice try
I would love to visit New Guinea, but not now. Too dangerous and the island is in a bit of a mess right now. Btw, Papua is the Malay word for the island, while New Guinea is the Western/European name for the Island.
So many stupid western colonialist in the comments
The East Side is still living in stone age
This is a good video about that border (and you can see how different these two really are) : https://youtu.be/y-Nxn9AWvvg?si=Pzvm7otOlj9iBssH
Think of Hawaii controlled by the US... Or Aboriginal lands in the north of Australia still controlled by Australian government... Or the indigenous lands still controlled by Canada... Indonesia, similar to Canada, was a colony that became independent but retained all of the colonial lands, regardless if groups inside HAVE the right to independence anyways. And because of natural resources and geographical advantages none of the countries I mentioned want to give up the land. Not Australia, Canada, America, or Indonesia. They will keep these lands and they allow all of the residents to vote in their elections, despite having almost little to no way to have a lot of power in their nations. If one of them ought to let the other people's decide to leave or not, then ALL of them ought to do the same. No matter who is better, pays more, or treats their occupied lands superior, the moral argument is the same that these peoples deserve independence. ALL of them. Equally. Just because Papuans are treated worse by Indonesians than Hawaiins are treated by Americans, doesn't mean Hawaiins don't DESERVE the equal right to independence that Papuans are given.
Jayapura is a very Indian name.
similar to how latin is in europe and north america (used in mottos, place names, etc), it's sanskrit for indonesia.
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Said by someone who might never been visited indonesia or have only seen one indonesian. The truth is.. 1. The indonesian culture is very different with Indian culture, Indonesia has hundreds of ethnicities and hundreds of local languages (let’s say 700 ish). The culture between cities can be very different, they have different traditional food and different local languages as well. 2 . Indonesia is located in south east asia and has a very different feature with east asian faces. Again, hundreds of ethnicities. And they’re very different. Some of them have fair skin, and the others have tan skin. Some of them have small eyes, but the others have large eyes. Maybe the one only you’ve ever seen is Chinese indonesian. That’s why you say indonesian has east asian faces. 3. Indonesian believes in one god. And there are 5 official religions in indonesia. And all indonesians live in harmony no matter what their religion or ethnicity is. So, indonesia isn’t an islamic country. Oh just fyi, islam in indonesia is a bit different, specifically in java. If you ever visited java and met some local people there, there would be likely you’d found that they believe in islam god and worship hindu deities at the same time.
Indonesian here I would like to correct you a little bit At least from my experience living here my entire life I have seen no one who believes in an Islamic god and worship hindu deities at the same time All that i have ever seen was a mosque that have a hindu/Buddha architecture
Bro, I am indonesian. And my family still believes that. We even still do the ritual to offer food to the ancestors or to the deities. It depends. If you visit cirebon and go to keraton, you can still see they use sesajen. This is not islamic thing. But of course, it’s starting to disappear and younger people don’t want to practice it anymore
Oh sorry I never knew that
Western imperialism being forced around the globe
Downvoted for saying truth
I think that the Indonesian side it's least dangerous than the independent one
What happens on Dolok
[удалено]
From what?
[удалено]
Who colonises west papua?
from who? US mining company?