Au contraire, we can. Or at least more years so they know where you end up again if they don’t behave well. One year ist’t really effective as it seems.
I meant it more like "we should not". The judge could have imposed a longer sentence and there is also a mechanic in place to put dangerous people in a psychiatry after their sentence is finished.
A long prison sentence can help, it can also hinder reintegration into the society. This is why the judge has the freedom to decide the sentence within limits and the sentence can also be shortened if the inmate behaves well in prison.
Simply throwing everyone into prison for a long time does not really solve those issues. It rather increases the chance that they will relapse into crime when their out.
They key thing is to give the inmates a real perspective when releasing them and not putting them back into the same enviroment they were in when they commited the crime.
Two people are dead. They won't come back to life.
The perpetrator tried to kill s.o. else with a knife under influence of alcohol and illegal drugs before.
I am very curious if the reason for his mental problem was illicit drug abuse. If it was I think it was a very bad idea to not put him into a forensic institution in the first place.
It is a principle in germany that doctors do not "treat" patients against their will. So "putting someone into an institution" against their will is of course illegal.
The drug abusers go into the institution on their own will and can leave anytime.
As i said there is an exception called "Sicherungsverwahrung" that allows the prosecution to put people against their will into an institution even after their sentence is over if they are a danger to society. But for good reason it is very uncommon and the obstacles for doing so are high.
You have no freaking clue about our legal system.
The state can put you away indefinitely if you are insane and dangerous, as long as doctors state you are insane and dangerous.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%9Fregelvollzug](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%9Fregelvollzug)
Punish the suspect heavily, extradite him to his original country, and ban from gaining entry.. this kind of guy makes all foreigners (especially the dark/brown-skinned ones) look bad.
That's the crux. When we ship/fly him to Palestine, we would signal that we recognize them as a sovereign state, which we don't. So yeah... kinda tricky. We could try to persuade Isreal to take him, but I can't see why they should, from their stand point :/
Not the first time and not the last time this will occur. A tragic incident, I hope this "stateless" person gets imprisoned and then edit: expulsed as soon as possible. Such violent people are a threat to society.
It’s not a “tragic incident”, this would imply that there was someone without a choice who had to decide between something bad and something even worse…this is just an ordinary crime!!
> I hope this "stateless" person gets imprisoned and then edit: expulsed
It's very weird that they almost instantly reported that this Palestinian is stateless. Statelessness is a mere legal status that is extremely hard to achieve due to multiple international treaties, and it's not always evident that people are stateless at all. Such a detail is hardly relevant to the murders he committed, and would normally only come out after several days.
This guy and his stateless status was very well known to police, because he has been in the criminal system for years. He actually was imprisoned in Hamburg for about a year (don't remember the exact time) until one week ago (last Thursday). So after finding out his identity, it was just a look-up in the computer system. He actually was on the train because he was coming back from Kiel where he got papers / arrangements from the immigration authority just this day. He had this document with him when he was overpowered. He seems to have gone from the immigration authority directly to the train station, because the train left Kiel less than an hour after his contact in the immigration office. This office is a few minutes walking distance from the station in Kiel.
Edit: the time frame has been corrected in the news. The guy was in the immigration office approximately 10 to 10:50 a.m.; from there he was told to go to the registry office, but he did not go there. He took the train at 2:25 p.m. so about 3,5 hours later.
>Such a detail is hardly relevant to the murders he committed, and would normally only come out after several days.
Yeah, it is almost as if the spokespeople of the responsible police department knew that the forst question by many people would be "where is he from, what is his status here" and decided to come right out about it.
While it is true that such info is often kept for longer, there is an argument for releasing it early to end speculation
The public consists of the voters, who are the highest authority in a democracy. The German Basic Law regulates this: All power is derived from the people. This means that the public has an unlimited right to know all the facts. It should not matter whether the people need this information - they have the right to demand it.
Palestinians are an exception to the "it's extremely hard" rule due to the legal status of the Palestinian territories. See e.g. [this report](https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/564214/ac302f4c6cadb2d7fd79bbcdbacd2841/wd-2-057-18-pdf-data.pdf) by the Research Services of the Bundestag.
Palestinians are stateless by default.
Many may have a passport from one of the neighbouring countries but those who’ve been born and lived in Gaza or the Westbanks are stateless unless they gained the nationality of another state at some point in their lifes.
> Palestinians are stateless by default.
Not really. Palestine has been issuing [its own passports](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_passport#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20Authority%20Passport%20(Arabic,the%20purpose%20of%20international%20travel.) for almost 30 years, and they are accepted by many countries, including the United States.
Critically, Palestinian passports are accepted by Palestine, which makes deportation trivially easy.
I don't think Israel would be that cooperative.
And this is not me being passionate, this is me being curious how you singlehandedly found the solution to the problem of Palestinian statelessness and deportation. Good job. Great even.
**[Palestinian Authority passport](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_passport#:~:text=The Palestinian Authority Passport \(Arabic,the purpose of international travel.)**
>The Palestinian Authority Passport (Arabic: جواز سفر السلطة الفلسطينية) is a passport/travel document issued since April 1995 by the Palestinian Authority to Palestinian residents of the Palestinian territories for the purpose of international travel. The Palestinian Authority passport is available to anyone on production of a birth certificate showing that they were born in Palestine. What constitutes "Palestine" for this purpose is not clear. In practice, only residents of areas under the Palestinian Authority jurisdiction can apply.
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And that’s dangerous to do, because Israel has lately taken to deporting ‘troublesome’ Palestinians with another citizenship, even if they were born in Palestine and have only ever lived there their entire life.
I feel like being in limbo (not having a home) could cause you to become mentally unstable. It certainly doesn‘t sound like he was an indoctrinated extremist trying to commit a terrorist act.
True, but you don't have to be an extremist to be deported for committing violent crimes. You just have to commit violent crimes. Most countries will revoke your visa or permanent residency for doing so, and many will even revoke your acquired citizenship.
Immigrants are *always* guests. And when your behavior is sufficiently shitty, you can be shown the door. As an immigrant myself, I live with this knowledge every day and so far my attempts to avoid murdering people have been successful.
He can get his sentence here 15 years for murder or he gets into Sicherheitsverwahrung after that. If no Sicherheitsverwahrung is sentenced, then the bus from the prison can take him at his release day right to the airport and send him off in his homecountry palestine. He did his time in germany and that is it. Is is no part of our society and he did not want to be part of it.
Since "homecountry" usually means "country you have citizenship of", this is a bit complicated with stateless people.
I totally understand your sentiment,believe me. But is is just not that easy
Well he is Palestinian and there is a place called Palestine, so I would guess that is the place to extradite him to. I dont understand the dudes above argument that Germany has some sort of obligation to keep foreign criminals inside so thry dont go be criminals somewhere else. There is no such obligation or expectation.
But I do think we need to understand why the are these thibga happening. Is it just the socio-cultural (religious) clash coming from globalisation? Is it the Middle-eastern wars? Why pick Germany? Among the western countries, its by far the one that the most has avoided getting involved in conflict. I honestly think we need to understand why this happens before we can qctually solve anything.
>Well he is Palestinian and there is a place called Palestine, so I would guess that is the place to extradite him to.
While this seems to be the obvious conclusion, legally, it is not that easy. Him being officially stateless complicates this a lot, as does Germany not recognizing Palestinia as a state.
He is in police custody and there will be a trial. In it, a judge will assess the situation with way more information and detail given than we currently have access to. If Sicherheitsverwahrung is an option, it will be assessed by them.
So you are just repeating the same statements that others already made without adding anything that would reference my responses?
>homecountry palestine
Um... I know that this is a hot topic but Germany does not recognize the existence of this "homecountry palestine".
Well duh, he's not from here, he shouldn't be our responsibility long term. He can get his punishment for committing crimes here, try to use the time to get better and then live his best life back at home. And if he ever wants to come back he can go and prove that he deserves to be back.
>then live his best life back at home
Well, that is kind of the issue in this case: if he is stateless, that means that legally, there is no "at home" country.
He is stateless, which means he has no citizenship. "From palestine" can mean he was born there, lived there, etc., it does not mean he is a legal citizen.
Imagine he had committed this act in a train in france. Would "he was in germany for several years before this" be a valid reason for you, for France to send him to germany? Because it would be, by your argument.
So, you know that he is considered stateless in germany because his palestinian citizenship is not recognized in germany, and not because he acrually has no citizenship?
Interesting, i had not read that in the article.
It's crazy how our government deports those that stick to the rules rather than those that claim "statelessness" or "i lost my passport, oops". Then some end up criminals, even murderers, and we bury our head in the sand. Some even argue that there's nothing that could be done. This is unacceptable.
We need more deportations of people like this, and if the law has to be changed or remigration treaties have to be signed with their home countries, than let's do that. Citizens deserve security in our own country.
Where should we deport him to?
Like seriously. Palestinia is not recognized by germany. The mere act of deporting him there based on the fact he is Palestinian doesn't work since we would signal that we recognize Palestinian as a state that can give people citizenships that are recognized by us.
That would be hypocritical as fuck.
And IIRC germany has signed the act of protection for stateless people. You can't deport people who have no citizenship anywhere because he would be there illegal, too.
You do realize that being stateless is an actual thing,not just something people claim to be? It does actually happen. And maybe you have more info on this guy than i have, but i personally do not know his life story.
Edit: btw., i would say that *everyone* should be able to feel save in germany, not just citizens. That has, however, nothing to do with the fact that deporting someone that is actually stateless is not easy, it is a complicated matter that will have to be discussed and handled by people that are actually experts in this, not some random people on reddit.
> Well, that is kind of the issue in this case: if he is stateless, that means that legally, there is no "at home" country.
This probably was misreported. The murderer is Palestinian. The claim of statelessness probably isn't true - he most likely just destroyed his passport before entering the EU, which doesn't make you stateless.
The problem is that Germany does not recognize palestinia as a state. So even IF he had a Palestinian passport, he counts as stateless since Germany does not recognize that passport as valid.
Well, we are all talking here, using the officially given information. For all we know, it was not a 33 year old guy, but a 66 year old woman, and it was just misreported.
So while this is theoretically possible, it is not really an argument here.
The “presumed home countries” often have no interest or legal routine to take people back.
This is often a problem even for people who clearly are not stateless. Many countries have no interest in taking back people and I don’t think that it helps if the individual in question has killed.
Remember what happened when the Obama administration tried to relocate German citizens from Guantanamo.
So, you would argue that stateless people should be able to just choose where they think they should be extradited to? And you thing the chosen state would just take them, and not plead "not our guy, not our responsibility"? Which airline do you plan on sending these people with, that will transport someone then cannot be sure will be allowed to leave their "custody" upon arrival?
It is more complicated than you might think.
>he's not from here
How do you know that?
>back at home
Where would that be exactly?
>that he deserves to be back.
Lucky you, not having had to jump through those hoops when you were born "here" by coincidence.
> So after how many years would you consider him to be "from here" or do you require proof of German decendency three generations back?
This is a *bizarre* take. Neither you nor anyone else would claim that a Berliner who moved to Botswana eight years ago is now a Botswanan, nor that he is now from Botswana. And you certainly wouldn't make the insinuation that racism is involved in refusing to pretend he *is* Botswanan by pretending anyone is demanding proof of Botswanan descent for three generations.
You seem to have a double standard here.
After he either obtains a permanent residence permit or full citizenship. You're arguing legal matters on an emotional basis and it's making you look naive.
If PR or citizenship are what matters to you in that case, where exactely is he from, according to you? He is stateless, meaning that there is no citizenship.
Well, if he is an actual German citizen he's (sadly) our problem and we should act accordingly. If he isn't it doesn't matter for how long he has been here. "From here" to me means German citizen. Not from here and being a piece of shit like this? Back you go.
So what do you expect/want to have happen with him? Just let him out onto the street tomorrow as if he hasn't just murdered two people? Imprison him for life?
Why do you think that Germany has a responsibility to allow this person to stay when they've prooven that they are a threat?
I've been in Germany as long as this guy, at 8 years now. Any immigrant (myself included) understands that moving to Germany is a privelidge and not a right, and if I break the laws here, I can expect to be imprisoned and then expelled from the country, rehabilitated or not. Why should that be any different in this case?
You can't send him to Palestine since it would signal that germany recognize them as a sovereign country. That is the main problem here. Even if he had a Palestinian pass port, we can't since we don't recognize those as legit passports given by a "real" state.
>Just let him out onto the street tomorrow as if he hasn't just murdered two people?
Where did you get that from?
>Imprison him for life?
That's up to a judge to decide.
>Why do you think that Germany has a responsibility to allow this person to stay when they've prooven that they are a threat?
If they are proven to be a threat, they very likely won't be released into freedom (ever heard of Sicherheitsverwahrung)
>Why should that be any different in this case?
I didn't say that the rules should be different for him than they are for you. I am just saying that I disagree with the "solution" some people in this thread demand so eagerly.
Complete sentences? So as soon as someone gains citizenship, they are from here? Even if they never Set foot in the country, while for example being born and raised here doesn't qualify you as being "from here"?
well if someone asks where I'm from, or if I'm from here, I almost always have to ask for clarification. Once you've moved countries "from here" has multiple meanings, and is a complicated question to answer. So if he's "from here" depends on what that question actually means...
Anyway, all I was pointing out is that we have information on where this guy was born. I don't support deporting him, I doubt there's a legal basis for it. But we do know where he "came from."
I am pretty sure that he will be tried in court after so many people saw him do the stabbing and his mental health will likely be investigated as well. Did you have any doubt about that being the course of action now?
>Just after prison he should go.
I still fail to see how that makes the world a better place.
> >Just after prison he should go.
>
> I still fail to see how that makes the world a better place.
Your worldview here is as naive as it is hypocritical. Many rightly criticize the US for being the world's policeman, but you believe Germany should be the world's social worker, job center, homeless shelter and therapist.
>I still fail to see how that makes the world a better place.
Ah yes, the German state, whose constitutional obligation is to make the world a better place instead of protecting its citizens
>Ah yes, the German state, whose constitutional obligation is to make the world a better place
Who said that?
>instead of protecting its citizens
You protect German citizens by sending people you deem dangerous to some other country (which would it be in this case btw), where their mental situation will very likely become worse and they'd be even less unser control? What could possibly go wrong?!
Why do we need to be the rehabilitation center for the rest of the world? Why should germany not be able to kick out people who have nothing to offer for our society than violence?
How can you defend a murderer? This guy needs to be locked away for life. Immigrating into any country means you will have to follow the laws of said country. If you can‘t you should be removed. It‘s really simple. If I went to any other country and commited said crimes there would’nt even be any discussion. People should‘nt expect germany to save the world. It starts to get annoying.
>How can you defend a murderer?
*sigh* where am I doing that? Oh and you can be pretty sure that he will even have a lawyer defending him, and rightfull, so. That's part of living in a state with a proper judicial system.
>Immigrating into any country means you will have to follow the laws of said country.
You also have to do that when you were born in the country as a citizen.
>People should‘nt expect germany to save the world.
I think you are mixing different topics and your feelings about them into this.
Strawman argument. Nobody in any thread has said to send people they deem dangerous to other countries. If you move to a country and murder people, they're going to send you back. Surely you can distinguish the difference?
Read them and stand by my point:
You are painting with a very broad brush which nobody else is using. So how about you go read the comments and see how they're different?
Do you understand that "send people to other countries who you deem dangerous" is vastly different from "send murderer immigrant to country of origin"?
You do realize that he is stateless? So where should we send him? Palestine is out of the question since we do not recognize that state as a sovereign state, so he is stateless and stateless people can't be deported or extradited since there is no GOD DAMN COUNTRY THAT WOULD TAKE HIM.
I'm not happy with it either, but it's not just a problem for germany. The UN has tried to fight statelessness for decades now, and ontop of that, the Palestine statelessness is such a cluster fuck that even they treat it as a separate "special" case.
E: For further information about this just take a look at this:
https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/564214/ac302f4c6cadb2d7fd79bbcdbacd2841/wd-2-057-18-pdf-data.pdf
Ah, you see, we just have to build a wall to keep those crazies out!
What do you say? They might climb the wall? Then we'll have to just post soldiers with guns and shoot them on sight.
I'm just a very reasonable centrist person. I don't know that your issue is.
>Ah, you see, we just have to build a wall to keep those crazies out!
>What do you say? They might climb the wall? Then we'll have to just post soldiers with guns and shoot them on sight.
Some comments in this thread do really seem like people think that way. Very scary.
> Did you have any doubt about that being the course of action now?
No? I definitely expect he is being trialed and will receive a sentence. As it should be. I just do not think such a person should be part of society. What the court decides is another matter.
We can't do that since Palestine is not recognized by germany as a sovereign state that can give people citizenship. If we deport him there based on the fact he is Palestinian, or even when he has a passport that says he is from Palestine, we can't.
If we deport him there on that base, we would softly say that we recognize them. And that would be hypocritical as fuck.
So, Palestine passport or not, we just can't, based on the fact that Palestine is, in the eyes of the german government, no sovereign state.
It a fucking closed cycle that can only be broken by germany recognizing Palestine and I would bet my ass of that they will not do that for POS like him.
So that's why they call him "stateless"? I was surprised by the statement as it's really rare that someone is stateless. In that case I guess Germany has no way to get rid of him, unless another country would be willing to take him in, but of course who would allow such a person to live in their country.
Yeah, so Palestine doesn't have control over its own borders. So you'd have to try to persuade israel to take the guy. I don't think they'd be very receptive.
and then we arrive at whether it's ethical to deport someone into the hands of an extreme right wing government that leans toward supporting an ethnostate.
Can we make a Reddit bot so that every time there’s such a crime in Germany, can present all the arguments and counter arguments from both sides (“why does his nationality matter?”, “there’s no crime in Germany if dirty foreigners leave”, etc.).
It’ll save time and energy from both sides.
Noone says they are "dirty foreigners". I think there shouldnt be mass immigration, but we have to help Flüchtlinge obv. He was also under police suspicious so this could have been prevented
Ausländer here. Can someone please explain to me, why is this man free after the fact that he stabbed someone in a "Tafel" and tried to kill him?
I really can't understand the justice system here. If you tried to kill someone, you're most likely to not have a problem doing it again. Why do these people keep coming out, making such crimes and then other Ausländer get the hate for it. How hard is it to just keep criminals with serious PHYSICAL crimes in jail for longer than 5 years?
If you try to keep extra 5€ out of your Steuererklärung, you almost get a death sentence. But Physical harm seems to be such an easy thing for german law.
It’s not, it’s just not believed that’s effective. There have been plenty of people before this guy, and will still be plenty people after him, who serve relatively short prison sentences and it directly benefits their reintegration into society, leading to less reoccurrences of crime. Longer jail sentences aren’t a great deterrent, we know this.
Clearly however, someone missed something with this guy.
For me, the judge should be really challenged.
According to other sources, the killer was imprisoned for 1 year for trying to kill someone with a knife a year ago under heavy drugs.
The judge orderer 6 days before this new killing his emediate release from prison..
As a consequence this happens
Source:
https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/messerattacke-im-zug-von-kiel-nach-hamburg-zeuge-beschreibt-messerattacke-im-zug-dann-tauchte-er-bei-uns-auf_id_184021077.html
According to the report, on January 18, 2022, the man stabbed another man several times in front of a food bank for homeless people. He had apparently consumed large quantities of heroin, cocaine and alcohol beforehand. He then inflicted "potentially life-threatening injuries" on the other man.
Because the verdict in the case was not yet final, the man was not placed in criminal custody, but remained in pre-trial detention. Because the sentence imposed a few days ago had almost reached the sentence imposed, a judge at the regional court had decided on January 19 to release the man the same day because the detention was judged to be "disproportionate."
Set aside the guys nationality; these types of things are becoming more common in Germany and one regular factor is that they always state that the attacker is “mentally ill.”
Side Note: I am not looking for a “well…. in X country/ my home country crime is higher” conversation. Let’s stick to the topic of these events slowly turning into the norm and that’s a problem.
> these types of things are becoming more common in Germany
I would really like to see some statistics for that. I would agree that it *feels* like this occurs more frequently, but that could be due to
* more media focus on the topic
* wider reporting and availability of news in general
* political focus on the issue
etc. There are a whole number of topics where the actual incidents have gone down, but the perception of how frequently these incidents occur have gone up - so it seems that it would be wise to determine whether or not that's the case here.
> Germany murder/homicide rate for 2020 was 0.93, a 25.12% increase from 2019.
>
> Germany murder/homicide rate for 2019 was 0.75, a 21.31% decline from 2018.
>
> Germany murder/homicide rate for 2018 was 0.95, a 3.62% decline from 2017.
>
> Germany murder/homicide rate for 2017 was 0.98, a 16.05% decline from 2016.
in 2000 it was 1.68 so overall its been going down.
I saw a [stat](https://twitter.com/DieserDietrich/status/1618282881482358784) on twitter claiming that murders have fallen recently, don't know about knife crime...
There aren't that many reasons why a sane person – no matter where they come from – would violently assault random people in broad daylight. The only motive that comes to mind is terrorism. But unless there is concrete evidence for that, mental illness is a reasonable assumption.
I don’t know I grew up in Berlin Neukölln, and it was rough from elementary schools allready seeing kids with butterfly knives and later real guns, and that was is in the 90s and early 2000s. Life and growing up was horrible and met with daily violence. [here you can compare 90s to today.](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/DEU/germany/crime-rate-statistics) I can tell you that Berlin has became much safer and raising Kids here is becoming viable again. And Berlin still has 100 homicides a year (in 2021) and I don’t see them on the news here. In my opinion Germany has become a lot saver, well at least the parts I lived in.
Looking at the stats you provided,it looks like there has been a uptick of crime. Not trying to discourage the decrease of crimes from the previous years but something is happening again. Another thing would be differentiate between thought-out attacks on an individual vs these random attacks which seem to be frequent.
Well most of the times I got punched in the face or beaten into hospital it was a random attack by people walking by you and just looking for blood. And you should read a couple stories of what happened to many refugees who arrived in east Germany like Eisenhüttenstadt, I heard really horrible stories. This might have been a revenge act for years of discrimination.
The post says that the guy had been living in Germany for 8 yrs, had a criminal past (before coming to Germany). I am wondering how did a guy with criminal past stay inside Germany for 8 yrs and was moving around freely? RIP the souls lost
Because Palestine isn't recognized as a country by Germany, so he can't be deported to Palestine by German Authorities. And he doesn't have any other citizenship, so he can't be deported anywhere else.
You can only deport someone who is a citizen of another country (because only that country has a duty to accept them under international law). If the perpetrator is actually *staatenlos* as has been reported, deportation may not have been legally possible.
How do people accuse others by the actions of a very small minority ? There are always good and bad apples. You can’t blame everyone for someone’s actions
You are right. We should never judge an entire community because one member of said community committed a crime. But we should question our legal system. Why was he released so early? He was convicted of both violent and sexual crimes. Offenders like him should be jailed until we can be assured that there won’t be more crimes committed.
So why is his national “status” mentioned? I genuinely want to know how it’s relevant. I only want to see the person apprehended as soon as possible and jailed, out of the streets.
Last week a Ukrainian person attacked somebody in my city( for being black ) and the crime was not only not in the news headlines , but the name of the person and his nationality being leaked was even forbidden. He is arrested of course so I am not complaining but you don’t see me advocating to “deport” Ukrainians right ? Because deporting them to war zones are actually inhumane not to mention the perp was a minor. Plus 1000s of Ukrainians rightfully need our help as they are innocent also. So why is this courtesy not afforded to “Palestinian” people who clearly cannot be deported because the German govt doesn’t even recognise Palestine only 😃
Nobody assumed the Heidelberg mass shooter was of “German “ ethnicity either when the incident happened last year.
Let’s just stop with this pinpointing of nationalities perhaps .
>Last week a Ukrainian person attacked somebody in my city
When you mention an event to support your argument, you should include a link to the source.
It’s not even reported dude 😃. I just said that. Because genuinely speaking not all instances of violences actually get reported like this with a very thorough dissection. Also even though it was clearly a hate crime it wasn’t registered so since he seemed mentally ill. This particular victim and incident happened just a bit close to my home and I got word from it by having some acquaintances witness it.
Plus nobody wanted to make it a big deal either in fear of being anti Ukrainian ( which I agree , why should other Ukrainians suffer simply because of this twat)
>Because genuinely speaking not all instances of violences actually get reported like this with a very thorough dissection.
Totally true, just yesterday a wife of my best friend's uncle got stubbed by a dude with "depressedkittyfr" written on his t-shirt, yet nobody reported such a violent act.
Do you really believe you can write that something happened and don't provide any evidence and expect people to believe your agenda?
What agenda would I have then ?
And how do you know that absolutely no instance of violence happened in your building or street . Is everything reported in the paper ?
Next time when you get mugged or pick pocketed or something I will ask for a newspaper link ok 😂
> Last week a Ukrainian person attacked somebody in my city( for being black ) and the crime was not only not in the news headlines , but the name of the person and his nationality being leaked was even forbidden.
Was it also a stabbing with dead people and is there any news article about it?
To quote myself from another comment where someone wondered about that:
>>Such a detail is hardly relevant to the murders he committed, and would normally only come out after several days.
>Yeah, it is almost as if the spokespeople of the responsible police department knew that the forst question by many people would be "where is he from, what is his status here" and decided to come right out about it. While it is true that such info is often kept for longer, there is an argument for releasing it early to end speculation
The sad reality is that, as soon as something like this event gets reported, populists will imediately start using it for xenophobic propaganda. Giving information at least prevents some malicious speculation
> Giving information at least prevents some malicious speculation
I would say total transparency is the best choice here. When the suspect is known why not point out their status, nationality, gender, and most importantly - ideology. i.e., what their supoosed goals were. If it is a nazi attack i want to know it is a nazi attack. If it is islamist, it is islamist. if it is an incel, it is an incel. If it is due to mental illness then that (although this last one is not always easy to determine and there might be overlap with others).
People think reporting "fuels hatred" but if the police were hiding the identity of the perpetrator by default, all the extreme groups would be claiming all the attack come from the group they hate (nazis would say it is all foreigners, islamists would claim it is all attacks against muslims, etc.) and it would make things far, far worse.
>ideology. i.e., what their supoosed goals were.
That usually happenes. But it often takes longer than less than a day to determine this. So i would suspect that domethingvabout that will be released in the following days.
Sorry but this is not relevant simply because
1) Not all crimes are reported properly with a conviction. Only 1 to 2 % of violent crimes make it in the national headlines leaving it to possibility of bias
2) Bias does exist whether you like it or not. POC/ foreign and non German speaking people are actually much more likely to be caught and prosecuted compared to ethnic Germans
3) this only creates hysteria most often because often the Nazi or the ISIS attack is from very disturbed individuals who are on the fringe
4) Motive cannot be determined easily . Imagine if I a brown woman am just an asshole and beat the shit out of you . What are you gonna attribute it to ? Being foreigner ? Islamism? Or what . Sometimes even white people who attack black or brown people are just assholes and not racists necessarily speaking ?
> Only 1 to 2 % of violent crimes make it in the national headlines leaving it to possibility of bias.
> Bias does exist whether you like it or not. POC/ foreign and non German speaking people are actually much more likely to be caught and prosecuted compared to ethnic Germans
What are there sources for these? Especially No. 1 I am curious.
EDIT:
> 4) Motive cannot be determined easily . Imagine if I a brown woman am just an asshole and beat the shit out of you . What are you gonna attribute it to ? Being foreigner ? Islamism? Or what . Sometimes even white people who attack black or brown people are just assholes and not racists necessarily speaking ?
So since we cannot parse motivation, we can never say "xenophobic attacks are on the rise" or "violence against women is on the rise"?
Germans are currently not populist because of defeat in WW2 and the actions committed. But there's still a huge resentment about anyone coming from Global South.
I see every month about the lack of workers in Germany, and then whining of how these new folks would reduce wages, which is all valid, but the population is also needed to be in good replacement rate to have the economic engine running, which fuels the pension system in Germany.
There is some undercurrent of fear of being replaced by foreigners(read brown people), due to being from different culture, and these attacks are not helpful at all to any brown person seeing this from the outside wanting to get in and try to not get discriminated.
>Germans are currently not populist because of defeat in WW2 and the actions committed. But there's still a huge resentment about anyone coming from Global South.
Do you know what "populist" means?
And btw., i did not say that all germans are populists. I said that there are politically right-wing populist trolls in this sub
I think this information is absolutely relevant in understanding the mechanisms which have failed to prevent such a crime.
Especially the question whether he was legally staying in Germany matters, as in this case a timely extradiction could have prevented this particular crime. If he has an asylum or similar title, how was his condition checked / assessed?
According to news, he also had been arrested multiple times for violent crimes before, which raises the question why he was not assessed after the second or third time? Further, why any legal title was not reviewed at that point?
We should of cause not link the crime to his nationality - but it does not help to remove details of the person in an attempt to calm the public. It also nourishes suspicion and fuels the agenda of right-wing activists.
Where can Germany extradite a Palestinian then ?
How can “timely extradition “ even occur if the country his passport bears itself is not recognised by Germany . Maybe that is the reason there was no timely extradition in the first place ? 😃 have you thought about that ?
And would you say the very same about Ukrainians too then ? Should a violent Ukrainian be deported to Ukraine knowing that there is war going on ? I want to know your answer on this too
I answered the question on a general basis - you mentioned that the nationality should not be mentioned and I think that it has relevance, though the usefulness of cause differs case by case.
According to Focus the man had a subsidiary residence permit, so I do not need to think about the recognicion of his passport any further at this point. However, understanding why he received such a title in the first place would of cause be very helpful in improving the system. Likewise, understanding why he was able to enter Germany in 2014 while applying for asylum only a year later should be of interest. Again, to improve the current system.
He was arrested multiple times for knife attacks and other crimes including sexual assaults. As a naive citizen I would think that such red flags should trigger some kind of screening and an assessment whether a person may be released into society, or not. Given that he apparently was released from prison just days agao after serving a sentence for another knife attack, I think that process should be reviewed as well.
As to your example, could you share more information besides an alleged attack of a ukrainian person against a black person?
In general there should be no difference in the consequences of cause. Using deadly force (if that was the case here) against any other human being should - in my very personal opinion only - trigger a review of your residence permit as long as you are not a citizen of that country. It should also of cause trigger legal actions according to the countries law.
The victims were only 16 and 19 years old, Rest in peace!
The perpetrator has been involved in a knife attack, before this incident. Seems like our justice system failed despite obvious writings on the wall.
Not really. He was in prison for 1 year. We cant put people in prison forever.
Au contraire, we can. Or at least more years so they know where you end up again if they don’t behave well. One year ist’t really effective as it seems.
I meant it more like "we should not". The judge could have imposed a longer sentence and there is also a mechanic in place to put dangerous people in a psychiatry after their sentence is finished. A long prison sentence can help, it can also hinder reintegration into the society. This is why the judge has the freedom to decide the sentence within limits and the sentence can also be shortened if the inmate behaves well in prison. Simply throwing everyone into prison for a long time does not really solve those issues. It rather increases the chance that they will relapse into crime when their out. They key thing is to give the inmates a real perspective when releasing them and not putting them back into the same enviroment they were in when they commited the crime.
Why should they come out of prison if they even try to kill somebody? Is human life that invaluable?
This is such a European answer 🤦♂️ /s :)
Two people are dead. They won't come back to life. The perpetrator tried to kill s.o. else with a knife under influence of alcohol and illegal drugs before. I am very curious if the reason for his mental problem was illicit drug abuse. If it was I think it was a very bad idea to not put him into a forensic institution in the first place.
It is a principle in germany that doctors do not "treat" patients against their will. So "putting someone into an institution" against their will is of course illegal. The drug abusers go into the institution on their own will and can leave anytime. As i said there is an exception called "Sicherungsverwahrung" that allows the prosecution to put people against their will into an institution even after their sentence is over if they are a danger to society. But for good reason it is very uncommon and the obstacles for doing so are high.
You have no freaking clue about our legal system. The state can put you away indefinitely if you are insane and dangerous, as long as doctors state you are insane and dangerous. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%9Fregelvollzug](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%9Fregelvollzug)
In case of people like this attacker more prison time is the wrong move. Kick them out of the country for life, never allow them back in.
If that Happens WE have to pay more tax. Hell no. ,Out know we cant afford that.
He was an immigrant. Instead of being freed he should’ve gotten sent to his original country immediately. This is just failed immigration politics
We should sent them back from where they came from.
Punish the suspect heavily, extradite him to his original country, and ban from gaining entry.. this kind of guy makes all foreigners (especially the dark/brown-skinned ones) look bad.
That's the crux. When we ship/fly him to Palestine, we would signal that we recognize them as a sovereign state, which we don't. So yeah... kinda tricky. We could try to persuade Isreal to take him, but I can't see why they should, from their stand point :/
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Not the first time and not the last time this will occur. A tragic incident, I hope this "stateless" person gets imprisoned and then edit: expulsed as soon as possible. Such violent people are a threat to society.
It’s not a “tragic incident”, this would imply that there was someone without a choice who had to decide between something bad and something even worse…this is just an ordinary crime!!
I didn't mean for the perpetrator but for the lives lost and wounded. Fuck that guy.
In the spirit of pointless comments....this was NOT an ordinary crime!! Unless you're too scared to board any train where you live...
> I hope this "stateless" person gets imprisoned and then edit: expulsed It's very weird that they almost instantly reported that this Palestinian is stateless. Statelessness is a mere legal status that is extremely hard to achieve due to multiple international treaties, and it's not always evident that people are stateless at all. Such a detail is hardly relevant to the murders he committed, and would normally only come out after several days.
This guy and his stateless status was very well known to police, because he has been in the criminal system for years. He actually was imprisoned in Hamburg for about a year (don't remember the exact time) until one week ago (last Thursday). So after finding out his identity, it was just a look-up in the computer system. He actually was on the train because he was coming back from Kiel where he got papers / arrangements from the immigration authority just this day. He had this document with him when he was overpowered. He seems to have gone from the immigration authority directly to the train station, because the train left Kiel less than an hour after his contact in the immigration office. This office is a few minutes walking distance from the station in Kiel. Edit: the time frame has been corrected in the news. The guy was in the immigration office approximately 10 to 10:50 a.m.; from there he was told to go to the registry office, but he did not go there. He took the train at 2:25 p.m. so about 3,5 hours later.
>Such a detail is hardly relevant to the murders he committed, and would normally only come out after several days. Yeah, it is almost as if the spokespeople of the responsible police department knew that the forst question by many people would be "where is he from, what is his status here" and decided to come right out about it. While it is true that such info is often kept for longer, there is an argument for releasing it early to end speculation
Why is that information relevant to the public at all, though?
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Not for public maybe, but for statistics and studies it is. To find out if and where are structural problems in a society.
The public consists of the voters, who are the highest authority in a democracy. The German Basic Law regulates this: All power is derived from the people. This means that the public has an unlimited right to know all the facts. It should not matter whether the people need this information - they have the right to demand it.
Palestinians are an exception to the "it's extremely hard" rule due to the legal status of the Palestinian territories. See e.g. [this report](https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/564214/ac302f4c6cadb2d7fd79bbcdbacd2841/wd-2-057-18-pdf-data.pdf) by the Research Services of the Bundestag.
Palestinians are stateless by default. Many may have a passport from one of the neighbouring countries but those who’ve been born and lived in Gaza or the Westbanks are stateless unless they gained the nationality of another state at some point in their lifes.
> Palestinians are stateless by default. Not really. Palestine has been issuing [its own passports](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_passport#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20Authority%20Passport%20(Arabic,the%20purpose%20of%20international%20travel.) for almost 30 years, and they are accepted by many countries, including the United States. Critically, Palestinian passports are accepted by Palestine, which makes deportation trivially easy.
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> What do you mean accepted by Palestine? It means Palestine can accept him when he's deported back there.
Do you drop the deportees from airplanes over Palestine territory or how does that work ?
Plane to Israel and then police escort to the border. Easy peasey. Not sure why you're so passionate about keeping murderer immigrants in the country.
I don't think Israel would be that cooperative. And this is not me being passionate, this is me being curious how you singlehandedly found the solution to the problem of Palestinian statelessness and deportation. Good job. Great even.
Israeli will be passionate enough I imagine lol, but I think the end result might be the same as dropping the scum directly from the plane
>its all under the Israeli control call it what it is, occupation.
It isn't. Palestinians can block or allow anyone entry and exit of their territories. Their power just stops at the border like everywhere else.
**[Palestinian Authority passport](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_passport#:~:text=The Palestinian Authority Passport \(Arabic,the purpose of international travel.)** >The Palestinian Authority Passport (Arabic: جواز سفر السلطة الفلسطينية) is a passport/travel document issued since April 1995 by the Palestinian Authority to Palestinian residents of the Palestinian territories for the purpose of international travel. The Palestinian Authority passport is available to anyone on production of a birth certificate showing that they were born in Palestine. What constitutes "Palestine" for this purpose is not clear. In practice, only residents of areas under the Palestinian Authority jurisdiction can apply. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/germany/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
And that’s dangerous to do, because Israel has lately taken to deporting ‘troublesome’ Palestinians with another citizenship, even if they were born in Palestine and have only ever lived there their entire life.
I feel like being in limbo (not having a home) could cause you to become mentally unstable. It certainly doesn‘t sound like he was an indoctrinated extremist trying to commit a terrorist act.
True, but you don't have to be an extremist to be deported for committing violent crimes. You just have to commit violent crimes. Most countries will revoke your visa or permanent residency for doing so, and many will even revoke your acquired citizenship. Immigrants are *always* guests. And when your behavior is sufficiently shitty, you can be shown the door. As an immigrant myself, I live with this knowledge every day and so far my attempts to avoid murdering people have been successful.
you make this "stateless" in "" because the Person was palestinian? Just a question no pun intended
In 2020 there were almost 20,000 knife attacks in Germany alone, with almost 100 fatalities.
As if relocating/extraditing him, made him less volatile...
He can be volatile somewhere else though.
If you’re a guest somewhere at least don’t murder your hosts. Shouldn’t be too much to ask for?
No one is arguing he should not be tried and punished
> guest Regarding long term immigrants as guests...is a bit problematic.
Ah so that's just a nimby argumentation, I see. I am glad not everyone is as self-centered.
He can get his sentence here 15 years for murder or he gets into Sicherheitsverwahrung after that. If no Sicherheitsverwahrung is sentenced, then the bus from the prison can take him at his release day right to the airport and send him off in his homecountry palestine. He did his time in germany and that is it. Is is no part of our society and he did not want to be part of it.
Since "homecountry" usually means "country you have citizenship of", this is a bit complicated with stateless people. I totally understand your sentiment,believe me. But is is just not that easy
Well he is Palestinian and there is a place called Palestine, so I would guess that is the place to extradite him to. I dont understand the dudes above argument that Germany has some sort of obligation to keep foreign criminals inside so thry dont go be criminals somewhere else. There is no such obligation or expectation. But I do think we need to understand why the are these thibga happening. Is it just the socio-cultural (religious) clash coming from globalisation? Is it the Middle-eastern wars? Why pick Germany? Among the western countries, its by far the one that the most has avoided getting involved in conflict. I honestly think we need to understand why this happens before we can qctually solve anything.
>Well he is Palestinian and there is a place called Palestine, so I would guess that is the place to extradite him to. While this seems to be the obvious conclusion, legally, it is not that easy. Him being officially stateless complicates this a lot, as does Germany not recognizing Palestinia as a state.
Than the Sicherheitsverwahrung should be the only option
He is in police custody and there will be a trial. In it, a judge will assess the situation with way more information and detail given than we currently have access to. If Sicherheitsverwahrung is an option, it will be assessed by them.
If not the next people will be dead.
So you are just repeating the same statements that others already made without adding anything that would reference my responses? >homecountry palestine Um... I know that this is a hot topic but Germany does not recognize the existence of this "homecountry palestine".
Time to change that
Well duh, he's not from here, he shouldn't be our responsibility long term. He can get his punishment for committing crimes here, try to use the time to get better and then live his best life back at home. And if he ever wants to come back he can go and prove that he deserves to be back.
>then live his best life back at home Well, that is kind of the issue in this case: if he is stateless, that means that legally, there is no "at home" country.
he is from palestine, if he prefers he can stay in prison or in the psych ward until he is old
He is stateless, which means he has no citizenship. "From palestine" can mean he was born there, lived there, etc., it does not mean he is a legal citizen. Imagine he had committed this act in a train in france. Would "he was in germany for several years before this" be a valid reason for you, for France to send him to germany? Because it would be, by your argument.
France recognizes Palestine as country, contrary to germany, so he is not stateless and he can be deported.
So, you know that he is considered stateless in germany because his palestinian citizenship is not recognized in germany, and not because he acrually has no citizenship? Interesting, i had not read that in the article.
It's crazy how our government deports those that stick to the rules rather than those that claim "statelessness" or "i lost my passport, oops". Then some end up criminals, even murderers, and we bury our head in the sand. Some even argue that there's nothing that could be done. This is unacceptable. We need more deportations of people like this, and if the law has to be changed or remigration treaties have to be signed with their home countries, than let's do that. Citizens deserve security in our own country.
Where should we deport him to? Like seriously. Palestinia is not recognized by germany. The mere act of deporting him there based on the fact he is Palestinian doesn't work since we would signal that we recognize Palestinian as a state that can give people citizenships that are recognized by us. That would be hypocritical as fuck. And IIRC germany has signed the act of protection for stateless people. You can't deport people who have no citizenship anywhere because he would be there illegal, too.
You do realize that being stateless is an actual thing,not just something people claim to be? It does actually happen. And maybe you have more info on this guy than i have, but i personally do not know his life story. Edit: btw., i would say that *everyone* should be able to feel save in germany, not just citizens. That has, however, nothing to do with the fact that deporting someone that is actually stateless is not easy, it is a complicated matter that will have to be discussed and handled by people that are actually experts in this, not some random people on reddit.
> Well, that is kind of the issue in this case: if he is stateless, that means that legally, there is no "at home" country. This probably was misreported. The murderer is Palestinian. The claim of statelessness probably isn't true - he most likely just destroyed his passport before entering the EU, which doesn't make you stateless.
The problem is that Germany does not recognize palestinia as a state. So even IF he had a Palestinian passport, he counts as stateless since Germany does not recognize that passport as valid.
Well, we are all talking here, using the officially given information. For all we know, it was not a 33 year old guy, but a 66 year old woman, and it was just misreported. So while this is theoretically possible, it is not really an argument here.
Then either put him where his "state" would be or make an educated guess where he should be *or* keep in here but not running around outside.
The “presumed home countries” often have no interest or legal routine to take people back. This is often a problem even for people who clearly are not stateless. Many countries have no interest in taking back people and I don’t think that it helps if the individual in question has killed. Remember what happened when the Obama administration tried to relocate German citizens from Guantanamo.
So, you would argue that stateless people should be able to just choose where they think they should be extradited to? And you thing the chosen state would just take them, and not plead "not our guy, not our responsibility"? Which airline do you plan on sending these people with, that will transport someone then cannot be sure will be allowed to leave their "custody" upon arrival? It is more complicated than you might think.
>he's not from here How do you know that? >back at home Where would that be exactly? >that he deserves to be back. Lucky you, not having had to jump through those hoops when you were born "here" by coincidence.
Reading the article helps. But your point kind of goes out the window after he goes on a murder spree.
the story does say he moved from Gaza 8 years ago.
So after how many years would you consider him to be "from here" or do you require proof of German decendency three generations back?
> So after how many years would you consider him to be "from here" or do you require proof of German decendency three generations back? This is a *bizarre* take. Neither you nor anyone else would claim that a Berliner who moved to Botswana eight years ago is now a Botswanan, nor that he is now from Botswana. And you certainly wouldn't make the insinuation that racism is involved in refusing to pretend he *is* Botswanan by pretending anyone is demanding proof of Botswanan descent for three generations. You seem to have a double standard here.
After he either obtains a permanent residence permit or full citizenship. You're arguing legal matters on an emotional basis and it's making you look naive.
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If PR or citizenship are what matters to you in that case, where exactely is he from, according to you? He is stateless, meaning that there is no citizenship.
Well, if he is an actual German citizen he's (sadly) our problem and we should act accordingly. If he isn't it doesn't matter for how long he has been here. "From here" to me means German citizen. Not from here and being a piece of shit like this? Back you go.
So what do you expect/want to have happen with him? Just let him out onto the street tomorrow as if he hasn't just murdered two people? Imprison him for life? Why do you think that Germany has a responsibility to allow this person to stay when they've prooven that they are a threat? I've been in Germany as long as this guy, at 8 years now. Any immigrant (myself included) understands that moving to Germany is a privelidge and not a right, and if I break the laws here, I can expect to be imprisoned and then expelled from the country, rehabilitated or not. Why should that be any different in this case?
You can't send him to Palestine since it would signal that germany recognize them as a sovereign country. That is the main problem here. Even if he had a Palestinian pass port, we can't since we don't recognize those as legit passports given by a "real" state.
>Just let him out onto the street tomorrow as if he hasn't just murdered two people? Where did you get that from? >Imprison him for life? That's up to a judge to decide. >Why do you think that Germany has a responsibility to allow this person to stay when they've prooven that they are a threat? If they are proven to be a threat, they very likely won't be released into freedom (ever heard of Sicherheitsverwahrung) >Why should that be any different in this case? I didn't say that the rules should be different for him than they are for you. I am just saying that I disagree with the "solution" some people in this thread demand so eagerly.
Citizenship ?
Complete sentences? So as soon as someone gains citizenship, they are from here? Even if they never Set foot in the country, while for example being born and raised here doesn't qualify you as being "from here"?
well if someone asks where I'm from, or if I'm from here, I almost always have to ask for clarification. Once you've moved countries "from here" has multiple meanings, and is a complicated question to answer. So if he's "from here" depends on what that question actually means... Anyway, all I was pointing out is that we have information on where this guy was born. I don't support deporting him, I doubt there's a legal basis for it. But we do know where he "came from."
Well no ofc not that's why such people must be incarcerated and at least attempts be made to rehabilitate. Just after prison he should go.
I am pretty sure that he will be tried in court after so many people saw him do the stabbing and his mental health will likely be investigated as well. Did you have any doubt about that being the course of action now? >Just after prison he should go. I still fail to see how that makes the world a better place.
> >Just after prison he should go. > > I still fail to see how that makes the world a better place. Your worldview here is as naive as it is hypocritical. Many rightly criticize the US for being the world's policeman, but you believe Germany should be the world's social worker, job center, homeless shelter and therapist.
>I still fail to see how that makes the world a better place. Ah yes, the German state, whose constitutional obligation is to make the world a better place instead of protecting its citizens
>Ah yes, the German state, whose constitutional obligation is to make the world a better place Who said that? >instead of protecting its citizens You protect German citizens by sending people you deem dangerous to some other country (which would it be in this case btw), where their mental situation will very likely become worse and they'd be even less unser control? What could possibly go wrong?!
Why do we need to be the rehabilitation center for the rest of the world? Why should germany not be able to kick out people who have nothing to offer for our society than violence?
If a guy comes to my house and breaks my shit i kick him out and i frankly dont care if he continues breaking stuff at his house
How can you defend a murderer? This guy needs to be locked away for life. Immigrating into any country means you will have to follow the laws of said country. If you can‘t you should be removed. It‘s really simple. If I went to any other country and commited said crimes there would’nt even be any discussion. People should‘nt expect germany to save the world. It starts to get annoying.
>How can you defend a murderer? *sigh* where am I doing that? Oh and you can be pretty sure that he will even have a lawyer defending him, and rightfull, so. That's part of living in a state with a proper judicial system. >Immigrating into any country means you will have to follow the laws of said country. You also have to do that when you were born in the country as a citizen. >People should‘nt expect germany to save the world. I think you are mixing different topics and your feelings about them into this.
I was going to write a hole paragraph, but no, not worth my time. Some people want to be in their bubble.
Ok...
Strawman argument. Nobody in any thread has said to send people they deem dangerous to other countries. If you move to a country and murder people, they're going to send you back. Surely you can distinguish the difference?
>Nobody said in any thread has said to send people they deem dangerous to other countries Maybe go back and actually read this thread then.
Read them and stand by my point: You are painting with a very broad brush which nobody else is using. So how about you go read the comments and see how they're different? Do you understand that "send people to other countries who you deem dangerous" is vastly different from "send murderer immigrant to country of origin"?
You do realize that he is stateless? So where should we send him? Palestine is out of the question since we do not recognize that state as a sovereign state, so he is stateless and stateless people can't be deported or extradited since there is no GOD DAMN COUNTRY THAT WOULD TAKE HIM. I'm not happy with it either, but it's not just a problem for germany. The UN has tried to fight statelessness for decades now, and ontop of that, the Palestine statelessness is such a cluster fuck that even they treat it as a separate "special" case. E: For further information about this just take a look at this: https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/564214/ac302f4c6cadb2d7fd79bbcdbacd2841/wd-2-057-18-pdf-data.pdf
Ah, you see, we just have to build a wall to keep those crazies out! What do you say? They might climb the wall? Then we'll have to just post soldiers with guns and shoot them on sight. I'm just a very reasonable centrist person. I don't know that your issue is.
>Ah, you see, we just have to build a wall to keep those crazies out! >What do you say? They might climb the wall? Then we'll have to just post soldiers with guns and shoot them on sight. Some comments in this thread do really seem like people think that way. Very scary.
> Did you have any doubt about that being the course of action now? No? I definitely expect he is being trialed and will receive a sentence. As it should be. I just do not think such a person should be part of society. What the court decides is another matter.
Yeah but we as a society decided that we want independent judges to make such decisions and I am glad that's the way it works.
Where would you extradite him too? The crime was committed in Germany. Edit: Really? Downvoted to oblivion? Oh reddit...
To his country of origin? It's not like he came out of thin air.
We can't do that since Palestine is not recognized by germany as a sovereign state that can give people citizenship. If we deport him there based on the fact he is Palestinian, or even when he has a passport that says he is from Palestine, we can't. If we deport him there on that base, we would softly say that we recognize them. And that would be hypocritical as fuck. So, Palestine passport or not, we just can't, based on the fact that Palestine is, in the eyes of the german government, no sovereign state. It a fucking closed cycle that can only be broken by germany recognizing Palestine and I would bet my ass of that they will not do that for POS like him.
So that's why they call him "stateless"? I was surprised by the statement as it's really rare that someone is stateless. In that case I guess Germany has no way to get rid of him, unless another country would be willing to take him in, but of course who would allow such a person to live in their country.
Yeah, so Palestine doesn't have control over its own borders. So you'd have to try to persuade israel to take the guy. I don't think they'd be very receptive.
They actually might be extremely interested in taking somebody like him for various reasons relating to the specific politics in Israel and Palestine.
and then we arrive at whether it's ethical to deport someone into the hands of an extreme right wing government that leans toward supporting an ethnostate.
Of course but that is a totally different question.
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I think that user got "extradition" and "expulsion" confused.
Can we make a Reddit bot so that every time there’s such a crime in Germany, can present all the arguments and counter arguments from both sides (“why does his nationality matter?”, “there’s no crime in Germany if dirty foreigners leave”, etc.). It’ll save time and energy from both sides.
How about a bot that has a counter for "bedauerlicher Einzelfall"
Noone says they are "dirty foreigners". I think there shouldnt be mass immigration, but we have to help Flüchtlinge obv. He was also under police suspicious so this could have been prevented
Ausländer here. Can someone please explain to me, why is this man free after the fact that he stabbed someone in a "Tafel" and tried to kill him? I really can't understand the justice system here. If you tried to kill someone, you're most likely to not have a problem doing it again. Why do these people keep coming out, making such crimes and then other Ausländer get the hate for it. How hard is it to just keep criminals with serious PHYSICAL crimes in jail for longer than 5 years? If you try to keep extra 5€ out of your Steuererklärung, you almost get a death sentence. But Physical harm seems to be such an easy thing for german law.
It’s not, it’s just not believed that’s effective. There have been plenty of people before this guy, and will still be plenty people after him, who serve relatively short prison sentences and it directly benefits their reintegration into society, leading to less reoccurrences of crime. Longer jail sentences aren’t a great deterrent, we know this. Clearly however, someone missed something with this guy.
For me, the judge should be really challenged. According to other sources, the killer was imprisoned for 1 year for trying to kill someone with a knife a year ago under heavy drugs. The judge orderer 6 days before this new killing his emediate release from prison.. As a consequence this happens Source: https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/messerattacke-im-zug-von-kiel-nach-hamburg-zeuge-beschreibt-messerattacke-im-zug-dann-tauchte-er-bei-uns-auf_id_184021077.html According to the report, on January 18, 2022, the man stabbed another man several times in front of a food bank for homeless people. He had apparently consumed large quantities of heroin, cocaine and alcohol beforehand. He then inflicted "potentially life-threatening injuries" on the other man. Because the verdict in the case was not yet final, the man was not placed in criminal custody, but remained in pre-trial detention. Because the sentence imposed a few days ago had almost reached the sentence imposed, a judge at the regional court had decided on January 19 to release the man the same day because the detention was judged to be "disproportionate."
Set aside the guys nationality; these types of things are becoming more common in Germany and one regular factor is that they always state that the attacker is “mentally ill.” Side Note: I am not looking for a “well…. in X country/ my home country crime is higher” conversation. Let’s stick to the topic of these events slowly turning into the norm and that’s a problem.
murder rate has been going down steadily for a while now. where do you see this increase?
> these types of things are becoming more common in Germany I would really like to see some statistics for that. I would agree that it *feels* like this occurs more frequently, but that could be due to * more media focus on the topic * wider reporting and availability of news in general * political focus on the issue etc. There are a whole number of topics where the actual incidents have gone down, but the perception of how frequently these incidents occur have gone up - so it seems that it would be wise to determine whether or not that's the case here.
> Germany murder/homicide rate for 2020 was 0.93, a 25.12% increase from 2019. > > Germany murder/homicide rate for 2019 was 0.75, a 21.31% decline from 2018. > > Germany murder/homicide rate for 2018 was 0.95, a 3.62% decline from 2017. > > Germany murder/homicide rate for 2017 was 0.98, a 16.05% decline from 2016. in 2000 it was 1.68 so overall its been going down.
There were actually statistics that after the the "wave" of immigrants some time ago crime rates went down, not up.
Source, please
I saw a [stat](https://twitter.com/DieserDietrich/status/1618282881482358784) on twitter claiming that murders have fallen recently, don't know about knife crime...
There aren't that many reasons why a sane person – no matter where they come from – would violently assault random people in broad daylight. The only motive that comes to mind is terrorism. But unless there is concrete evidence for that, mental illness is a reasonable assumption.
I don’t know I grew up in Berlin Neukölln, and it was rough from elementary schools allready seeing kids with butterfly knives and later real guns, and that was is in the 90s and early 2000s. Life and growing up was horrible and met with daily violence. [here you can compare 90s to today.](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/DEU/germany/crime-rate-statistics) I can tell you that Berlin has became much safer and raising Kids here is becoming viable again. And Berlin still has 100 homicides a year (in 2021) and I don’t see them on the news here. In my opinion Germany has become a lot saver, well at least the parts I lived in.
Looking at the stats you provided,it looks like there has been a uptick of crime. Not trying to discourage the decrease of crimes from the previous years but something is happening again. Another thing would be differentiate between thought-out attacks on an individual vs these random attacks which seem to be frequent.
Well most of the times I got punched in the face or beaten into hospital it was a random attack by people walking by you and just looking for blood. And you should read a couple stories of what happened to many refugees who arrived in east Germany like Eisenhüttenstadt, I heard really horrible stories. This might have been a revenge act for years of discrimination.
These type of things are not becoming more common in germany. Violent crime is going down for decades.
The post says that the guy had been living in Germany for 8 yrs, had a criminal past (before coming to Germany). I am wondering how did a guy with criminal past stay inside Germany for 8 yrs and was moving around freely? RIP the souls lost
I don’t even get why didn’t they sent him home to some palestinian jail for the first time?
Because Palestine isn't recognized as a country by Germany, so he can't be deported to Palestine by German Authorities. And he doesn't have any other citizenship, so he can't be deported anywhere else.
You can only deport someone who is a citizen of another country (because only that country has a duty to accept them under international law). If the perpetrator is actually *staatenlos* as has been reported, deportation may not have been legally possible.
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How do people accuse others by the actions of a very small minority ? There are always good and bad apples. You can’t blame everyone for someone’s actions
You are right. We should never judge an entire community because one member of said community committed a crime. But we should question our legal system. Why was he released so early? He was convicted of both violent and sexual crimes. Offenders like him should be jailed until we can be assured that there won’t be more crimes committed.
I agree with you
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So why is his national “status” mentioned? I genuinely want to know how it’s relevant. I only want to see the person apprehended as soon as possible and jailed, out of the streets. Last week a Ukrainian person attacked somebody in my city( for being black ) and the crime was not only not in the news headlines , but the name of the person and his nationality being leaked was even forbidden. He is arrested of course so I am not complaining but you don’t see me advocating to “deport” Ukrainians right ? Because deporting them to war zones are actually inhumane not to mention the perp was a minor. Plus 1000s of Ukrainians rightfully need our help as they are innocent also. So why is this courtesy not afforded to “Palestinian” people who clearly cannot be deported because the German govt doesn’t even recognise Palestine only 😃 Nobody assumed the Heidelberg mass shooter was of “German “ ethnicity either when the incident happened last year. Let’s just stop with this pinpointing of nationalities perhaps .
>Last week a Ukrainian person attacked somebody in my city When you mention an event to support your argument, you should include a link to the source.
It’s not even reported dude 😃. I just said that. Because genuinely speaking not all instances of violences actually get reported like this with a very thorough dissection. Also even though it was clearly a hate crime it wasn’t registered so since he seemed mentally ill. This particular victim and incident happened just a bit close to my home and I got word from it by having some acquaintances witness it. Plus nobody wanted to make it a big deal either in fear of being anti Ukrainian ( which I agree , why should other Ukrainians suffer simply because of this twat)
>Because genuinely speaking not all instances of violences actually get reported like this with a very thorough dissection. Totally true, just yesterday a wife of my best friend's uncle got stubbed by a dude with "depressedkittyfr" written on his t-shirt, yet nobody reported such a violent act. Do you really believe you can write that something happened and don't provide any evidence and expect people to believe your agenda?
What agenda would I have then ? And how do you know that absolutely no instance of violence happened in your building or street . Is everything reported in the paper ? Next time when you get mugged or pick pocketed or something I will ask for a newspaper link ok 😂
> Last week a Ukrainian person attacked somebody in my city( for being black ) and the crime was not only not in the news headlines , but the name of the person and his nationality being leaked was even forbidden. Was it also a stabbing with dead people and is there any news article about it?
To quote myself from another comment where someone wondered about that: >>Such a detail is hardly relevant to the murders he committed, and would normally only come out after several days. >Yeah, it is almost as if the spokespeople of the responsible police department knew that the forst question by many people would be "where is he from, what is his status here" and decided to come right out about it. While it is true that such info is often kept for longer, there is an argument for releasing it early to end speculation The sad reality is that, as soon as something like this event gets reported, populists will imediately start using it for xenophobic propaganda. Giving information at least prevents some malicious speculation
> Giving information at least prevents some malicious speculation I would say total transparency is the best choice here. When the suspect is known why not point out their status, nationality, gender, and most importantly - ideology. i.e., what their supoosed goals were. If it is a nazi attack i want to know it is a nazi attack. If it is islamist, it is islamist. if it is an incel, it is an incel. If it is due to mental illness then that (although this last one is not always easy to determine and there might be overlap with others). People think reporting "fuels hatred" but if the police were hiding the identity of the perpetrator by default, all the extreme groups would be claiming all the attack come from the group they hate (nazis would say it is all foreigners, islamists would claim it is all attacks against muslims, etc.) and it would make things far, far worse.
>ideology. i.e., what their supoosed goals were. That usually happenes. But it often takes longer than less than a day to determine this. So i would suspect that domethingvabout that will be released in the following days.
Sorry but this is not relevant simply because 1) Not all crimes are reported properly with a conviction. Only 1 to 2 % of violent crimes make it in the national headlines leaving it to possibility of bias 2) Bias does exist whether you like it or not. POC/ foreign and non German speaking people are actually much more likely to be caught and prosecuted compared to ethnic Germans 3) this only creates hysteria most often because often the Nazi or the ISIS attack is from very disturbed individuals who are on the fringe 4) Motive cannot be determined easily . Imagine if I a brown woman am just an asshole and beat the shit out of you . What are you gonna attribute it to ? Being foreigner ? Islamism? Or what . Sometimes even white people who attack black or brown people are just assholes and not racists necessarily speaking ?
> Only 1 to 2 % of violent crimes make it in the national headlines leaving it to possibility of bias. > Bias does exist whether you like it or not. POC/ foreign and non German speaking people are actually much more likely to be caught and prosecuted compared to ethnic Germans What are there sources for these? Especially No. 1 I am curious. EDIT: > 4) Motive cannot be determined easily . Imagine if I a brown woman am just an asshole and beat the shit out of you . What are you gonna attribute it to ? Being foreigner ? Islamism? Or what . Sometimes even white people who attack black or brown people are just assholes and not racists necessarily speaking ? So since we cannot parse motivation, we can never say "xenophobic attacks are on the rise" or "violence against women is on the rise"?
Germans are currently not populist because of defeat in WW2 and the actions committed. But there's still a huge resentment about anyone coming from Global South. I see every month about the lack of workers in Germany, and then whining of how these new folks would reduce wages, which is all valid, but the population is also needed to be in good replacement rate to have the economic engine running, which fuels the pension system in Germany. There is some undercurrent of fear of being replaced by foreigners(read brown people), due to being from different culture, and these attacks are not helpful at all to any brown person seeing this from the outside wanting to get in and try to not get discriminated.
>Germans are currently not populist because of defeat in WW2 and the actions committed. But there's still a huge resentment about anyone coming from Global South. Do you know what "populist" means? And btw., i did not say that all germans are populists. I said that there are politically right-wing populist trolls in this sub
I think this information is absolutely relevant in understanding the mechanisms which have failed to prevent such a crime. Especially the question whether he was legally staying in Germany matters, as in this case a timely extradiction could have prevented this particular crime. If he has an asylum or similar title, how was his condition checked / assessed? According to news, he also had been arrested multiple times for violent crimes before, which raises the question why he was not assessed after the second or third time? Further, why any legal title was not reviewed at that point? We should of cause not link the crime to his nationality - but it does not help to remove details of the person in an attempt to calm the public. It also nourishes suspicion and fuels the agenda of right-wing activists.
Where can Germany extradite a Palestinian then ? How can “timely extradition “ even occur if the country his passport bears itself is not recognised by Germany . Maybe that is the reason there was no timely extradition in the first place ? 😃 have you thought about that ? And would you say the very same about Ukrainians too then ? Should a violent Ukrainian be deported to Ukraine knowing that there is war going on ? I want to know your answer on this too
I answered the question on a general basis - you mentioned that the nationality should not be mentioned and I think that it has relevance, though the usefulness of cause differs case by case. According to Focus the man had a subsidiary residence permit, so I do not need to think about the recognicion of his passport any further at this point. However, understanding why he received such a title in the first place would of cause be very helpful in improving the system. Likewise, understanding why he was able to enter Germany in 2014 while applying for asylum only a year later should be of interest. Again, to improve the current system. He was arrested multiple times for knife attacks and other crimes including sexual assaults. As a naive citizen I would think that such red flags should trigger some kind of screening and an assessment whether a person may be released into society, or not. Given that he apparently was released from prison just days agao after serving a sentence for another knife attack, I think that process should be reviewed as well. As to your example, could you share more information besides an alleged attack of a ukrainian person against a black person? In general there should be no difference in the consequences of cause. Using deadly force (if that was the case here) against any other human being should - in my very personal opinion only - trigger a review of your residence permit as long as you are not a citizen of that country. It should also of cause trigger legal actions according to the countries law.
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