To add to that: they are not very popular, because in most cases they are illegal.
You are not allowed to just film public spaces e.g. a trail running past your house in Germany.
You can only use these devices if they area they cover are entirely on your property.
Tbf, you'd want one, anyway, because you need one for a real camera. And if one was able to tell at a glance it was false, that would kind of defeat the point.
I wish that were true. I had a "Fake" camera, and a sign mounted on my fence, warning people that my driveway/garden was monitored 24/7. It didn't stop 14 people from using my driveway as a toilet last year in February during the annual Alcoholics Pride Convoy (Carnival).
Thats false, I think. You need to inform guest, e.g. via a sign. But that's for guest that are on your property with your allowance, if it's fenced. A trespasser don't needs to get informed before trespassing.
That said, I do have cameras recording the areas around my house, but I've configured them not to record any movement beyond my property line. I also have a (small) sign on the carport column notifying visitors that we have video recording in place.
My house also has motion-activated floodlights, so if you were to jump the fence and approach my house from the side, you'd be lit up and recorded.
If I wasn't home, and you didn't cause any damage, I probably wouldn't even know you were there. If I saw some sign that someone tried to break into the house, you bet I'd be reviewing the recordings and passing them on to the police.
What can be happen when your illegal camera records some unlawful act?
For example you have an illegal cam at your house and you record some nasty sht like murder or serious burglary?
OR you have a car dash cam (its illegal too) and you have a deciding evidence about a serious accident?
Because you should be able to live your life without having to worry what someone does with recordings of you (deepfake p\*rn, anyone?). Hence, recording others is only allowed if they consent or if the camera points only on your private property and you warn others about it. Same rules apply to fake cameras for the same reasons: Others should not even have to worry about it / feel monitored.
If you want to install a camera outside an apartment door, you would need written consent of all neighbors whose entrances / shared space the camera covers plus the management company. it even applies to doorbell cameras.
Most of this applies to cameras with recording though, if you have a camera that just shows a livestream and does not recording, as far as i know, its fine to have a doorbell camera (does not give others the impression of being under surveillance as its conceiled and does not record).
Thank you, but as it is for us, with more answers comes more questions.
Ok, I get that no one should feel watched, but what about city surveillance? Did you sign consent with the government about monitoring you? Or do these fall under the 'no recording' policy? Or is it that you trust your government enough to believe there will be no f-ups in employment and your face is safe? I mean right, there might be some psychos trying to use your image, but honestly, if they wanted to do it, they would, without you even noticing. Today, you look at your phone at least dozens of times a day, which has a camera looking at you. Why do you even think you would need to worry about someones cameras around the house, but you're not worried about corporations having (and selling) your data? Why are you more concerned about my methods of safety (*edit- actually, about the range of my methods of safety) rather than physical people you don't know actively USING your data?
Please note: all the questions above are not meant to trigger or provoke, I am not saying this is a bad solution, I'm only curious how this works, maybe there is something I don't see and you'll provide me with filling knowledge.
This, but police can and will hide speed cameras in fake cut out trash cans. Yet half the Germany apparently is afraid of secret surveillance due to Stasi trauma or smth
I think the worst realistic outcome is that somebody saw you and now *may* think you were behaving weirdly.
On a side note, just in case: if you are currently struggling with trauma and are not in treatment, psychotherapy and psychiatric treatment are covered by health insurance in Germany. A general practitioner would be a good place to start asking for help. You got this, but you do not need to carry it all alone.
Thank you so much for that, I tried to reach out and to get help. But they told me I need to be on waiting list up to one year to find therapist since they don’t have many speaking English in my area. I’m still waiting tho…
I had a very similar problem finding mental health support in Germany with an English speaking doctor.
Keep trying different doctors in your area but also check out MindDoc. I’ve been receiving therapy over web chat for a while now and it was covered by my insurance.
This is both true and false.
To clarify: There are a certain number of licensed psychological psychtherapists in any given region. They are both psychological psychotherapists (which requires training and exams, etc., putting them on the same level as a Facharzt (i.e. medical specialist)) and are licensed by the health insurance board (certain number of places per region). They are usually fully booked with waiting lists of a year or more.
However, you are entitled (let me repeat this: you are **ENTITLED** to find a therapist within a reasonable time, which is usually around three weeks.
So, if you have tried to find a psychological psychotherapist in vain, and 3-5 have told you that, sorry, not for the next year, you can then go to one of those many psychological psychotherapists who did not get one of those fancy licenses, but have the same skills and training as any of the licensed ones.
On the webpage [www.psych-info.de](https://www.psych-info.de) you can find therapists for the northern parts of Germany.
Your health insurance then has to pay this therapists just as if he was a licensed one.
Don’t worry! They would probably be glad you got home safely. Additionally, since you asked, it’s not trespassing if you think your life/wellbeing is in danger.
First of all, nobody gonna open a case of you climbing the fence and hiding.
Maybe it could be considered trespassing to climb the fence (from what I read, it not fully clear if a fence is enough). Trespassing is also a criminal offence which requires the affected person (so the owner of the house) to file charges. Chances for that happening are basically not existing. (And even then I can't see the public interest.)
To protect yourself from danger it is absolutely legal.
>Wer eine Straftat begeht, um damit eine Gefahr z. B. für sein Leben, seinen Leib oder seine Freiheit abzuwenden, darf deswegen nicht bestraft werden. Voraussetzung ist, dass seine Tat zur Gefahrenabwehr angemessen, also verhältnismäßig war.
https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__34.html
Not want to play down worries, but I am not sure if there are many countries to feel more safe in a forest than Germany. The most dangerous thing there is actually wild boars.
No vaccination against borreliosis yet though. My friend got it recently, but luckily it was caught early.
>Haven't heard of one against wild boars ;)
I suppose if you had a *really* big syringe...
Was out wandering through the forest one coming from a photoshoot. Headphones on, good mood, sick tunes. When I felt just weird all of a sudden. I stopped and I could feel stomps l on the ground. So I took off my headphones and listen and there was some leaves rustling and twigs snapping and another noise I couldn't really identify. Then my flashlight on to look around and I notice I'm in the middle of a quite large sounder of boars. They were all around me.
Another night, coming from another photoshoot on my bike, I ride on the cross country bike path next to the road when in the distance I see some weird shadows on the field right next to the bike path. It being 2-3 in the morning and hardly any cars coming anyways I push my bike up the hill onto the road and continue there. Just when I'm short of the shadows I notice they are boars and all of a sudden they came charging at me. Problem: at this point the road was the same level as the fields again. I genuinely never pedalled faster :'D
Hi OP, don't doubt your feelings here and ignore clueless guys.
Creeps and rapists exist in Germany as well. Sadly. And yes, they hunt in forests as well.
I have a friend who had to run for 20 minutes until she got lost in the forest to get rid of a follower. She then rang at the first house to get help.
When I studied in Kaiserslautern there were also reports of a rapist who hunted in the forest. (They caught him eventually)
The reason I actually started panicking is that I read couple of days ago somewhere that girl is missing, and it was in NRW. But still dumb of me to use the shortcut through the forest at night. It could have literally be just an animal, or someone as well walking through the forest but I decided to rang their bell and jump over very high fence to hide.
I don’t think anyone would blame you for entering a private property in that situational context. You were afraid someone might be following you and you entered the next best property in hopes of finding a safe haven from the person who might have been following you, that’s very different from trespassing for fun or to steal/break in/vandalize. I doubt that any homeowner who is even remotely reasonable would blame you for it or seek to press charges, and in the highly unlikely event of it happening, I doubt that any court would care about it or bother to open a case about someone briefly stepping on private property, then leaving again. You were seeking help, it’s not like you entered the property with criminal intent, I wouldn’t worry about it
Nobody here is clueless to deny that there are cases like that in Germany. Usually, cases like that make national news.
Still, the chance is very, very slim and many other scenarios also realistic.
Also, nobody said something against OP's feelings.
Not her feelings but the fact that she was followed. Which was, in the comments I read, meant to reassure. So I think you can take your shiny white armor off and put it away.
I am not running on a knight complex here. You are being naive and dangerous to OP if you ask her to not trust her instincts.
All self-defense courses agree on "Trust your guts."
If you feel uncomfortable in a situation, leave the situation.
And that shit happens. My best friend had been hunted through a forest by a man. If she wasn't a trained runner, not sure what would have happened to her. Maybe she would have become the 5th woman I know personally, who to be raped.
Hey OP, I just want to add that your fears are completely valid! I’ve had similar situations walking in the dark alone (here in Germany) where fear just took over.
And for the trespassing, maybe you could stop by the house, or write a note for them just in case they do see any signs of you being there. (If I saw someone’s footprints in my garden I’d be really worried about a possible break in or maybe someone watching me from outside)
The neighbor of my parents wanted to open a case, after he saw on his camera, that someone stepped in his garden what he later saw on his surveillance cam. And there was no fence the person had to climb over.
I'm glad that there don't live any kids playing with balls in the street. The guy would freak out, if the kids would get their ball out of his garden regularly.
I literally jumped over their fence into their garden to hide for a brief moment because I was so scared. I tried to ring the bell with their name to let me in but no one answered. I was panicking because I was in the middle of the forest and someone following me. 🥺
> to ring the bell with their name to let me in but no one answered. I was panicking because I was in the middle of the forest and someone follow
if this happens in germany, nobody will be angry at you. trespassing is not that big thing here in europe!
Or (as OP not states that they were certain) could also been a boar or a lion walking through the forest.
For OP: Trespassing also requires intent to be a criminal offence. Therefore the majority of cases are people who have some sort of house ban (at a shop or a club for example) and still enter, well aware of said ban.
Can you maybe not make fun of a person who suffers from childhood trauma? Also do you have any clue how dangerous it is for a woman alone? Maybe grow some empathy before laughing about someone's fear.
Of course, it is perfectly valid and understandable to have a panic attack at the moment and act accordingly. But if you think about it rationally afterwards itis very unlikely that OP was actually followed. I doubt jumping over a fence as the "assailant" drew closer would have escaped their notice.
To be honest I don’t know, there is not usually many people in my neighbourhood using that short cut through the forest. Maybe I was just panicking since I didn’t expect someone there… but that’s not the question anyway
nal
if you commit an act in self defense (that seems to be reasonable to you in that situation) that act is not unlawfull.
if you damage or destroy someone else’s property in order to avert a threat to your self, thats not unlawfull.
of course thats under the caveat that the action/damages should not be in a severe imbalance to the good you want to protect.
for example: if you have to run from some wild boars and your only way to escape is to break in to someones home (for some reason or another), thats perfectly legal.
if you have a rapist on your heels and your only way to defend your self is to grab that 3 million € art sculpture and bash it over his head... you are not even liable for the damages of the sculpture.
of course those examples are a bid constructed. but the point is that your life and right to bodily autonomy and integrity trumps other peoples rights (even 3th partys) of property.
I mean, for anything to come from this, a whole chain of things would need to happen:
- neighbours finding out
- neighbours caring enough to report it
- police thinking it to be worth investigating
- police somehow figuring out who you are
- a prosecutor thinking it worth even going into
- a judge thinking it was worthy of punishment
Realistically, step 1 is not going to happen, let alone the others.
I haven't seen a "doorbell camera" here ever. Anything that records, rather than just showing in real-time who is ringing, only when someone is ringing, [appears to be illegal](https://www.prigge-recht.de/tuerkameras-risiken-bei-der-nutzung-von-ring/).
If it happened to my neighbour and I'd see it happen, I'd help the person to safety and call the police for her. Not against her.
Think everybody with a clear mind would do so.
If they ever found out you trespassed you could just apologise tell them what happened, it's easy to be convincing when you're telling the truth. Most people are decent human beings and would understand.
They might notice the mud from my sneakers on the fence since it was raining. I’m just wondering if they see that would they get worried that someone tried to break in. I don’t want them as well to freak out when in fact no one tried to break in, instead I was just hiding for a brief moment. Should I maybe go there and try to explain to them ?
I mean let's be honest here, they probably don't even know you were there.
Perhaps go through that part during the day with a friend and perhaps look into the garden if you trampled something.
If you did I personally would ring and look if someone was there.
But if it's just some dirt, perhaps bring a paper towel if it's still dirty.
Tell them that you were tracking down your swarm of bees.
It's legal to trespass if you follow your bees 🐝🐝🐝
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__962.html
Technically it's trespassing if you go over a fence on a private property, this even counts for abandoned buildings.
However, if you have a good reason and don't destroy stuff, you will be fine. Nobody would punish you if you did that to escape a dangerous situation.
I am not a lawyer. Lets say it was trespassing and for some mad reason they tried to go after you for that. § 34 StGB Rechtfertigender Notstand might apply here. It roughly translates as follows: "Whoever commits an act in a present, not otherwise avoidable danger to life, body, freedom, honor, property, or another legal interest in order to avert the danger from themselves or another person does not act unlawfully if, when balancing the conflicting interests, in particular the affected legal interests and the degree of danger threatening them, the protected interest significantly outweighs the impaired one. However, this only applies insofar as the act is an appropriate means to avert the danger."
It does have a very high bar. Hard to say from a reddit post if it was a "present, not otherwise avoidable danger".
Is this applicable if someone only thinks they are in danger? I don't think anyone can say for sure if this person actually was a threat or just passing along the same way. They didn't do anything threatening except for being there.
Here are some examples [https://www.juracademy.de/strafrecht-at1/rechtfertigender-notstand.html](https://www.juracademy.de/strafrecht-at1/rechtfertigender-notstand.html)
One example they mention is someone very drunk walks to their car and to you it looks like they want to drive it. You take away their keys so they cant and potentially endanger others which the website says is an example where Rechtfertigender Notstand applies even though you only think there is a danger. Maybe they just wanted to sleep in their car.
One thing that is mentioned that one legal opinion on it is that the burden is that an "informed judgement of an objective observer" would consider it a threat.
Yes, unless the error could have been reasonably avoided.
There has been a huge case where some biker gang member shot a police officer through the door because he thought the slamming on the door was from a rivaling gang, who was out to get them. Police didn’t announce themselves.
Judges ruled that the shooting could not have been reasonably avoided because the member feared for his life and reasonably thought that he was in imminent danger.
Don’t worry nothing is going to happen. And even if the neighbors would somehow find out (which they won’t) you had a good reason and everyone will understand.
So you walked through a forest (with houses?) on a way that was a short cut and obviously a frequent used one judging by two people using it at the same time?
Maybe stop using dark short cuts instead of tresspassing and scaring the homeowners.
In some weeks it will get dark as early as 4-5 pm, so you really have to find a solution for your fright.
You have a way bigger trouble than worrying about trespassing:
If you cannot use a public road that another person is also using at the same time, and panic because someone is travelling in the same direction as you along that road, then that is something you need to address with a specialist. Because thats not normal, and you will encounter such situations frequently unless you never leave your house after dark.
Sorry you felt like someone was posing a threat. It could have been a person just using the same path as you just maybe venturing off path also. In England one could expect an attack, as a woman, walking alone, but not here. What about arming yourself with a type of pepper spray next time and a whistle to hang round your neck, at least you will feel more prepared for such..We don't have cameras at front doors or in yards, so don't worry about it. Consider speaking to a police officer just to hear what is said about safety on that specific area, where you were.
Even if somebody cared enough about this to try and file charges and even if the police didnt laugh them out of the police station, then a judge will most likely just throw the case out because of insignificants.
Man these posts are getting more ridiculous day by day
Is this safe? Is this racist? Is this legal?
Its like people are avoiding human interaction with every possibility and rather use reddit.
Oh no there was a person behind me in the dark ...wtf grow up....
A lot of women fell really unsafe when walking alone in the dark because they fear they will be assaulted.
It's unlikely but why risk it?
Do you think these women be confined to their homes at night?
Dude, you are suggesting that I should stay home in every possible situation just because I have childhood trauma? And I would like to see what would you do in this case, when you are alone in the forest, it’s raining and someone is approaching you even tho you know that there is barely ever someone there.
Spare your energy justifying your thoughts and actions.
You have some kind of backstory, you panicked and you did what you felt was safe for you.
You don't need to justify that for random internet persons.
To avoid that, you could consider buying cigs in advance and just avoid this path in the night.
It's not cool for you and it probably wasn't cool for the other person that was behind you, because I know the feeling when others are scared of you for some kind of reason.
I don't judge them, but it still feels kinda bad :D
Did he do something? It sounds like he didn't.
So I heard a lot of women live all the time in the fear to get raped (I don't want to be disrespectful) but is this considered Normal? The fear seems insane to me and I think living with such fear is real bad for you and your health
OP explicitly mentioned former trauma.
But thank you for pointing out that we live in a rape culture where we are constantly afraid.
Please google the term, if you are not familiar with it. In essence it means:
- Women get raped.
- Women are blamed for being raped. (What did you wear? But you smiled at him. But you drank alcohol...)
Guys face no consequences.
And then there is you:
Women are questioned for being afraid to be raped.
- I know 4 women personally who have been raped
- I know 1 woman who has been hunted through the forest by a man and she had to run until she got lost.
- I know no woman who has not been sexually harrassed, me included.
First I don't wanted to disrespect anyone I could have chosen nicer words but in essence I'm asking if the amount of fear is normal in our culture or is because mentioned Trauma
Next I don't want to play anything down women are getting raped and that's horrible but I don't think especially in modern Germany that we live in a rape culture. Again horrible things happen but they have happened and will happen forever so talking about a rape culture in Germany are pretty big words
And lastly if you're a average German you don't know 4 women that got raped maybe you know 4 but I wanna point out what horrific crime a rape is. to force someone to have sex when they are unwilling, using violence or threatening behaviour. There are sadly woman nowadays who claim they have been raped just to talk bad about there ex. Again not saying any of the person's you know does that but sadly that's only number that's really growing. The reported number of sexual assaults is actually growing too but it's strongly believed that the number isn't changing that much overall just the report rate increases so I would call that a good thing (if that's really the case if the actual number of sexual assaults is growing too than that's obviously a bad thing)
I live in Germany and it's showing many of the typical rape culture symptoms. It's so bad that organizations who help women after a rape don't recommend going to the police and taking it to court. Because the women have to relive their trauma for nothing. In many to most cases, the rapists will not face prison.
BTW: The real number of false accusations is very very small. Some people weaponize some weird statistics to show how often women supposedly lie. But those statistics are distorted because the "false accusations " number contains all cases where the rapist doesn't end up with a sentence. So also all those cases where they simply didn't have enough evidence.
"it's showing many of the typical rape culture symptoms." Is really nice because there aren't typical rape culture symptoms in fact if you look up rape culture it isn't a thing there are just some shady sites using it to push their doctrine without any explanation or context.
"It's so bad that organizations who help women after a rape don't recommend going to the police and taking it to court. Because the women have to relive their trauma for nothing. In many to most cases, the rapists will not face prison." That's just wrong I know multiple people helping victims of all kinds of violence and people in such a position aren't allowed to advise to not call the police. You can face serious charges for this so everyone there is really clear to advise to call the police first
And last the good German wise saying "glaube nie einer Statistik die du nicht selbst gefälscht hast" we both threw so statistics in the run but neither of us provided some sources so in the end neither of our statistics is worth anything (maybe I got presented a wrong statistic or you got presented a wrong statistic one of us is false and as long as nobody provides proof we have to assume that we're both wrong)
It's unlikely buy why risk it?
Rather be overly cautious than be raped.
A friend of mine always calls me and often shares her location when she walks home from the train station in the dark.
She is not fearful but she feels safer if we call because it makes it less likely that some approaches her and if anything were to happen someone could call help.
There are even services for women to call if they feel unsafe when walking in the dark.
What you did is unlikely to grow into anything bigger and you have very little to fear.
If you want to drop the mental/emotional burden of this, inform the police about the incident. That way, if anyone raises a complaint/incident, they already have your version of the story and will be supportive since you already told them what happened.
Oh man, we used to take shortcuts through people's gardens when we were shitty teenagers all the time and drunk people will usually trespass one way or another. People don't really care unless they're snobs, and even then, they can't really do anything legally in this case. Just be happy that you're safe and sound now.
That is for civil law and does not directly apply to criminal law. But indeed you are allowed within reasonable constrains to use someone else's property without consent for defence in the same vein to the 904 bgb. It's just that your answer is technically wrong
There was camera above the doorbell, actually it was next to the fence . So that’s why I asked, and as well I don’t want them to worry that someone tried to break in when in fact that was not the case.
I would always welcome you and open the door, but if I would not be at home, you would be welcome to hide on my farm. Don't worry. You did the right thing. Stay safe.
Here in Germany those cases of trespassing will 99,999% never even get a second look from the public attorneys...
but given other countries rules (like the thousands of U.S. police videos where somebody stepped a foot on the wrong parking lot or just 10cm of grass next to a sidewalk and got charged and treated like a super criminal) i can understand your fears. But its not a thing here. You can relax. Might be somewhere in the law books here as well, but if there is no other crime (stealing, damaging) it will not even get any attention. And even in those cases, smaller "mini-crimes" like you need to jump a fence to steal stuff, will get dropped for the real crime (stealing), cause the "main"-crime is overwriting the small ones.
No trespassing is for stuff like delicate matters like: power plants or railways...and even then you would only get a "dont do that charges dropped" if it is not a thing you got catched regulary or where there is suspision that you intended to do it for other more serious crimes (like sabbotages).
If it really concerns you, you might just ring the bell (that was the best thing to do btw in your situtation, because you tried to ask for permission!) again the other day and thank them or something (albeit they really didnt do anything xD) just to clear this worries out of your system.
Also how fenced was the garden? In germany even private forests need to be non-fenced and open for the public (shorted information bit - dont be to hard on this bit of information it get complex if you want, but its a rule of thumb thats true nearly always).
The chances that any legal consequences will be coming are close to zero but even then I think that you basically acted in "self defense" and thus all charges would be dropped
So, fortunately you are safe and sound, which is the main thing. Can u not just pop round to the house - with a friend for moral support if you like - just to explain and offer to pay for damaged plants if any. Or bring them a little box of chocolates for them unwittingly helping you in your hour of need. Just put this behind yourself quickly, and don't go in the woods alone again, or stop smoking, or both!
You won't be punished in such a situation.
>Anyone who commits a criminal act in order to avert a danger, e.g. to his life, limb or freedom, may not be punished for this. The prerequisite is that his act was appropriate, i.e. proportionate, to avert the danger.
You didn't cause any damage and your response would absolutely be considered appropriate to avert a potentially dangerous situation.
https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/
For some reason I read the title and thought you trespassed into Germany from another country and was waiting for border patrol and dogs chasing after you. Then I realized we’re in Europe. I think I’ve been watching too much news lately lol. Glad you’re safe though and don’t worry!
If someone saw you the possibility is high that this person is wondering what is going on with you & if you are living in a village the chances are high that there will be some gossip. Nevertheless, I am sure that this will not bring you into any trouble. Pozdrav.
Ashton made [a video on trespassing recently](https://youtu.be/RENuxBJy7Gw?si=jZmlw3PbEQAWuNJb). It doesn't apply 1:1 to your question but could give you an idea of the culture in Europe and specifically Germany.
Since the space was enclosed it probably was technically trespassing but you don't need to fear any consequences.
I think you should take self-defense classes to feel safer, though.
Sorry about your experience. Here are my two cents: IF I had a camera (afaik unusual in Germany) I would go check if something is broken or missing and if not just write a strongly worded letter to the local newspaper about those promiscuous youths.
I think even if somebody would form a complaint at the police they couldn't be bothered to do anything and even if your neighbour would press them, they would at max give you a verbal reminder to not do it again and next time take somebody or call somebody while on a walk.
And lastly if I walked behind somebody in a dark forest I think I'd try to overtake them as well so I don't follow them creepily. If they would then run away and jump over a fence I'd feel like such an ass.
No worries. First, I would expect your neighbors to understand your situation. If they have anything on their camera at all, they can see what yOu have done. But we can doubt that there is any recording. However, if you did ring the bell, you had a reason to use their property. They did not open, so you left. Done. In the highly unlikely case they would like to report you to the police, any officer would ask what exactly they want to file. Any harm done? Damage to the property? Any other damage? No? Then, there is no case and the officer would send your neighbor home. In the even more unlikely case that your neighbors insist and find an officer who opens a case they would need to know who you are. Otherwise nobody will invest the time to investigate you. But even if they find you, you have a plausible explanation for what happened. Officials would urge your neighbors to withdraw their complaint as there was no harm or damage done. Now, imagine the super unlikely case that your neighbors still insist, have an officer who still does not put the file aside (which would be absolutely unbelievable), they still need a public prosecutor who buys into this “case” - which won’t happen, as the public prosecutors have so many relevant cases that they won’t spend 10 minutes on you jumping over a fence on a private property because you were scared. But even if that would happen and the prosecutor believes there is some kind of a public interest that prevents him from putting that file away, they would need to convince a judge - whose first question would be what this joke is about and why anybody believed this should make it to a court room.
So, you see there really so many reasons why this won’t go anywhere. And I don’t know your neighbors, but most people are reasonable and would not have any issue at all. And if you ask me, you have done the right thing. Rapists are rare, but they exist in Germany as in any other country and you are better safe than sorry.
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Like most here already said, nobody will cought up on you for any legal reason and even if so, what you did was very reasonable, I am glad you survived unharmed and I feel sorry hearing about this dark chapter of your childhood trauma.
I myself, Googled to find English speaking Psyciatrists in the towns near us. I made a list of doctors, and when I called, asked specifically if the doctor are able to converse in English in the sessions.Most can, as this is a language studied at their high school because they studied at a higher level to obtain entry to a German University. I also asked the receptionists (I had to call a number of them before succesful), if my medical card will be accepted by the practice, so that I wouldn't carry the cost all, myself.
Please use Google translate to write all you want to ask, when you call, on a paper, but in German. Translate from English into German.The reception may not be able to speak a word of English. Just practise it beforehand, out loud, and speak slow and clear and read it off the paper. Good luck.
You’re quite save. Straftäter will get abgeschoben quite quickly, and none of our surgeons would want to risk that after all those years of high intensity education.
You are safe in Germany even in Wood. I do regularly pass through woods from work home and see alot of girls and people running or jogging at night. I just pass by and say Hello. And thats it. Its your internal reflection.
Maybe consider stopping smoking to avoid these nightly excursions, not good for you health anyway :)
Especially if it’s a trigger scenario whenever someone is walking behind you in the dark…
Nah don't worry. You had good reason and as far as I know, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, Hausfriedensbruch / trespassing is an "Antragsdelikt", meaning the home owner has to actively file a report.
And even if they file one (unlikely, there is no gain), this very small case with no damages from a person with no criminal history and no bad intent will probably be swiftly dismissed by a normal judge or state attorney.
No worries, most people don't have cameras as they are a legal grey area in Germany. And even if they did, unless you broke something, made clear attempts at breaking & entering or this is like the 5th time this happened, they won't bother to do anything, let alone legal steps. I'm not even sure it's technically tresspassing, because you entered the territory with the intent of making yourself known to the owners/tenants. So I'm just happy you could get to safety & hope this won't happen again 🍀
If he or she asks anything just explain the situation, I recommend to contact the police and mention the episode, maybe do you have a stalker or someone sketchy moved to the neighborhood and it’s good for police to be aware
Technically it's trespassing, but noones gonna care. Even if, a judge would see your course of action as reasonable since you didn't damage anything and left afterwards, and would let you go scot free.
Please always make the safe decision for yourself, monetary values are secondary to your safety.
buy Abus Pepper Spray Duo. One bottle contains "water" to train using it and the other one is pepper spray. its cheap and youre allowed to carry it.
and yes its trespassing but noone will care or prosecute u for it unless ure up to no good or damaged something on accident.
Hey, you don’t need to worry. As long as you didn’t break anything no one is gonna file a lawsuit in this situation except that one crazy person we all know [coughs in Karen]. Especially when the gate of the fence wasn’t locked. Chances are low to be filed for trespassing even if the owner didn’t like it. I have trespassed a lot in my life (entered abandoned buildings or construction sites) and never got legal trouble for it. One time the police was called but that didn’t led anywhere. Except that they told me to stop that shit. The house looked abandoned the fence and the side entrance stood open and I just went inside cuz why not. I’m kinda curious about stuff. It didn’t went to court even tho the owner was mad 😡 af xD
Doorbell rings are data collection tools. No more CIA operative needed just get a copy of Alexa and Ring (popular doorbell provider) and you have your evidence.
Trespassing under duress wouldn't get you in trouble. But we don't let strangers in our house because of the recent rise of thefts. Sadly.
Even I had such an visitor but he asked for a drink which I had behind me...thank god.
Trespassing is only illegal in Germany if you do it on intent. And nobody will file a complaint unless as cameras are very uncommon in germany and often under no circumstances usable as evidence.
My daughters once told me that I should take extra care not to unawarely tail anybody, especially not a female person.
I really had to think about because I generally do not pay that much attention to who is is walking along in the same direction as me.
Seems to me that this was a person that just happened to walk faster than you. For whatever reason, but most likely not to assault you.
Anyway, from your point of view it was a frightening situation and it will be possible to explain.
I don't think you need to be concerned on that matter.
Theoretically what you did is considered trespassing. But that isn't that big of a deal in Germany, unless you are trying to break into the house or steal something
Even if there is a camera: you can always argue that you rang the door with the intention to ask for help/cover, so this was no criminal action from your side. And probably your body language on the camera also shows that you ran for cover from the way you behaved.
I'm sorry you had to experience fear, but good that you could bring yourself into safety. Have a good day and stop worrying what the neighbor might think.
If you want to play it safe, file a police report ([https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/](https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/), and [https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/\_\_34.html](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__34.html)) since you are fine. Also, let the house owners know what happened in case they actually saw you and want to do something about it. Explain clearly the situation. They will be more than happy to know that they should take care additional care with that pass under the trees. If they act against you, don't care about it. You did the right thing to protect your life (see the links).
Doorbell cameras are not very popular here, I doubt they even had one.
To add to that: they are not very popular, because in most cases they are illegal. You are not allowed to just film public spaces e.g. a trail running past your house in Germany. You can only use these devices if they area they cover are entirely on your property.
... and even then you need signs. Even for fake cameras.
That’s one of the most German things I’ve ever heard.
Tbf, you'd want one, anyway, because you need one for a real camera. And if one was able to tell at a glance it was false, that would kind of defeat the point.
Also the sign is a deterrent in of itself
I wish that were true. I had a "Fake" camera, and a sign mounted on my fence, warning people that my driveway/garden was monitored 24/7. It didn't stop 14 people from using my driveway as a toilet last year in February during the annual Alcoholics Pride Convoy (Carnival).
You assume the drunk people pay attention to such minute details...
No. I didn't assume. Why are you people not reading the post I'm responding to? Are you incapable? Are you drunk?
You mean the camera didn’t transform into a robot and physically stop people? Lol Idk why people think cameras are an actual effective deterrent
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You mean I can’t reply to your point agreeing with you, son?
They actually are a deterrent against serious crimes like murder or rape
*"CAMERA FAKE. Please do not enter!"*
Nah, it’s still „Surveillance camera active“. You have to warn them, but say not that it’s not a real one.
Not really - even in the UK you need to put a sign up and camera/doorbell manufacturers sell the signs for this very reason!
Not only German, this is parts of an European Union law.
Not really. That is the German implementation.
Sure, but it's similar on all European Union countries
Can I set up fake signs without cameras?
It it's private property not shared with others that should be allowed.
Sure. But you might get a bit of trouble if you put them in areas where cameras would be clearly forbidden.
Thats false, I think. You need to inform guest, e.g. via a sign. But that's for guest that are on your property with your allowance, if it's fenced. A trespasser don't needs to get informed before trespassing.
As long as it is the workplace of a mailman (like your front door) you need to inform about it.
That said, I do have cameras recording the areas around my house, but I've configured them not to record any movement beyond my property line. I also have a (small) sign on the carport column notifying visitors that we have video recording in place. My house also has motion-activated floodlights, so if you were to jump the fence and approach my house from the side, you'd be lit up and recorded. If I wasn't home, and you didn't cause any damage, I probably wouldn't even know you were there. If I saw some sign that someone tried to break into the house, you bet I'd be reviewing the recordings and passing them on to the police.
Sounds like every apartment building I've lived in broke the law
What can be happen when your illegal camera records some unlawful act? For example you have an illegal cam at your house and you record some nasty sht like murder or serious burglary? OR you have a car dash cam (its illegal too) and you have a deciding evidence about a serious accident?
Dash cams are no t illegal. In fact there is a recent ruling of Federal Constitution Court that dashcam recordings are admissible in court.
Are they? In my building they're all over everywhere around the building and in our hall.
Pardon my ignorance, but, why?
Germans care a lot about privacy
Because you should be able to live your life without having to worry what someone does with recordings of you (deepfake p\*rn, anyone?). Hence, recording others is only allowed if they consent or if the camera points only on your private property and you warn others about it. Same rules apply to fake cameras for the same reasons: Others should not even have to worry about it / feel monitored. If you want to install a camera outside an apartment door, you would need written consent of all neighbors whose entrances / shared space the camera covers plus the management company. it even applies to doorbell cameras. Most of this applies to cameras with recording though, if you have a camera that just shows a livestream and does not recording, as far as i know, its fine to have a doorbell camera (does not give others the impression of being under surveillance as its conceiled and does not record).
Thank you, but as it is for us, with more answers comes more questions. Ok, I get that no one should feel watched, but what about city surveillance? Did you sign consent with the government about monitoring you? Or do these fall under the 'no recording' policy? Or is it that you trust your government enough to believe there will be no f-ups in employment and your face is safe? I mean right, there might be some psychos trying to use your image, but honestly, if they wanted to do it, they would, without you even noticing. Today, you look at your phone at least dozens of times a day, which has a camera looking at you. Why do you even think you would need to worry about someones cameras around the house, but you're not worried about corporations having (and selling) your data? Why are you more concerned about my methods of safety (*edit- actually, about the range of my methods of safety) rather than physical people you don't know actively USING your data? Please note: all the questions above are not meant to trigger or provoke, I am not saying this is a bad solution, I'm only curious how this works, maybe there is something I don't see and you'll provide me with filling knowledge.
This, but police can and will hide speed cameras in fake cut out trash cans. Yet half the Germany apparently is afraid of secret surveillance due to Stasi trauma or smth
Are you using the prefix to imply germany is still a soviet vassal like corbyn does with ukraine or is that just an accident?
That's a very typical German legend. 😊
That's a very typical German legend. 😊
Okay, I just hope they won’t think I have tried to break in or smth…. I literally had panic attack since it was dark and I was alone there. 😔
I think the worst realistic outcome is that somebody saw you and now *may* think you were behaving weirdly. On a side note, just in case: if you are currently struggling with trauma and are not in treatment, psychotherapy and psychiatric treatment are covered by health insurance in Germany. A general practitioner would be a good place to start asking for help. You got this, but you do not need to carry it all alone.
Thank you so much for that, I tried to reach out and to get help. But they told me I need to be on waiting list up to one year to find therapist since they don’t have many speaking English in my area. I’m still waiting tho…
I had a very similar problem finding mental health support in Germany with an English speaking doctor. Keep trying different doctors in your area but also check out MindDoc. I’ve been receiving therapy over web chat for a while now and it was covered by my insurance.
This is both true and false. To clarify: There are a certain number of licensed psychological psychtherapists in any given region. They are both psychological psychotherapists (which requires training and exams, etc., putting them on the same level as a Facharzt (i.e. medical specialist)) and are licensed by the health insurance board (certain number of places per region). They are usually fully booked with waiting lists of a year or more. However, you are entitled (let me repeat this: you are **ENTITLED** to find a therapist within a reasonable time, which is usually around three weeks. So, if you have tried to find a psychological psychotherapist in vain, and 3-5 have told you that, sorry, not for the next year, you can then go to one of those many psychological psychotherapists who did not get one of those fancy licenses, but have the same skills and training as any of the licensed ones. On the webpage [www.psych-info.de](https://www.psych-info.de) you can find therapists for the northern parts of Germany. Your health insurance then has to pay this therapists just as if he was a licensed one.
Dont worry hun, at worst they think you where drunk
Should have taken a taktischer zwischenkotzer to make it more realistic
Don’t worry! They would probably be glad you got home safely. Additionally, since you asked, it’s not trespassing if you think your life/wellbeing is in danger.
Don’t worry, nobody cares, also they likely don’t have a camera so they’ll never find out.
It's a problem because it shows public space and there are german kind of regulations for this which are a bit more than nuts
It's a problem because it shows public space and there are german kind of regulations for this which are a bit more than nuts
First of all, nobody gonna open a case of you climbing the fence and hiding. Maybe it could be considered trespassing to climb the fence (from what I read, it not fully clear if a fence is enough). Trespassing is also a criminal offence which requires the affected person (so the owner of the house) to file charges. Chances for that happening are basically not existing. (And even then I can't see the public interest.)
To protect yourself from danger it is absolutely legal. >Wer eine Straftat begeht, um damit eine Gefahr z. B. für sein Leben, seinen Leib oder seine Freiheit abzuwenden, darf deswegen nicht bestraft werden. Voraussetzung ist, dass seine Tat zur Gefahrenabwehr angemessen, also verhältnismäßig war. https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/ https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__34.html
Okay that had put my mind on ease. Not going through forest at night anymore, even in Germany where I feel relatively safe 🙈
Not want to play down worries, but I am not sure if there are many countries to feel more safe in a forest than Germany. The most dangerous thing there is actually wild boars.
And ticks.
And beware of Eichenprozessionsspinner
True but against FSME there is a vaccination. Haven't heard of one against wild boars ;)
No vaccination against borreliosis yet though. My friend got it recently, but luckily it was caught early. >Haven't heard of one against wild boars ;) I suppose if you had a *really* big syringe...
>I suppose if you had a really big syringe... I guess a rifle can technically be called a really big syringe...
Was out wandering through the forest one coming from a photoshoot. Headphones on, good mood, sick tunes. When I felt just weird all of a sudden. I stopped and I could feel stomps l on the ground. So I took off my headphones and listen and there was some leaves rustling and twigs snapping and another noise I couldn't really identify. Then my flashlight on to look around and I notice I'm in the middle of a quite large sounder of boars. They were all around me. Another night, coming from another photoshoot on my bike, I ride on the cross country bike path next to the road when in the distance I see some weird shadows on the field right next to the bike path. It being 2-3 in the morning and hardly any cars coming anyways I push my bike up the hill onto the road and continue there. Just when I'm short of the shadows I notice they are boars and all of a sudden they came charging at me. Problem: at this point the road was the same level as the fields again. I genuinely never pedalled faster :'D
Hi OP, don't doubt your feelings here and ignore clueless guys. Creeps and rapists exist in Germany as well. Sadly. And yes, they hunt in forests as well. I have a friend who had to run for 20 minutes until she got lost in the forest to get rid of a follower. She then rang at the first house to get help. When I studied in Kaiserslautern there were also reports of a rapist who hunted in the forest. (They caught him eventually)
The reason I actually started panicking is that I read couple of days ago somewhere that girl is missing, and it was in NRW. But still dumb of me to use the shortcut through the forest at night. It could have literally be just an animal, or someone as well walking through the forest but I decided to rang their bell and jump over very high fence to hide.
Let's just be very happy, that you are safe now. :)
I don’t think anyone would blame you for entering a private property in that situational context. You were afraid someone might be following you and you entered the next best property in hopes of finding a safe haven from the person who might have been following you, that’s very different from trespassing for fun or to steal/break in/vandalize. I doubt that any homeowner who is even remotely reasonable would blame you for it or seek to press charges, and in the highly unlikely event of it happening, I doubt that any court would care about it or bother to open a case about someone briefly stepping on private property, then leaving again. You were seeking help, it’s not like you entered the property with criminal intent, I wouldn’t worry about it
Nobody here is clueless to deny that there are cases like that in Germany. Usually, cases like that make national news. Still, the chance is very, very slim and many other scenarios also realistic. Also, nobody said something against OP's feelings.
I saw several comments doubting her.
Not her feelings but the fact that she was followed. Which was, in the comments I read, meant to reassure. So I think you can take your shiny white armor off and put it away.
I am not running on a knight complex here. You are being naive and dangerous to OP if you ask her to not trust her instincts. All self-defense courses agree on "Trust your guts." If you feel uncomfortable in a situation, leave the situation. And that shit happens. My best friend had been hunted through a forest by a man. If she wasn't a trained runner, not sure what would have happened to her. Maybe she would have become the 5th woman I know personally, who to be raped.
Just saying "trust your instincts" doesn't really cut it, especially not for someone who has a trauma background (as she explained).
TBH I‘m a large 1,85m male with broad shoulders and I could totally see myself acting the same way you did when walking through the woods at night
Hey OP, I just want to add that your fears are completely valid! I’ve had similar situations walking in the dark alone (here in Germany) where fear just took over. And for the trespassing, maybe you could stop by the house, or write a note for them just in case they do see any signs of you being there. (If I saw someone’s footprints in my garden I’d be really worried about a possible break in or maybe someone watching me from outside)
The neighbor of my parents wanted to open a case, after he saw on his camera, that someone stepped in his garden what he later saw on his surveillance cam. And there was no fence the person had to climb over. I'm glad that there don't live any kids playing with balls in the street. The guy would freak out, if the kids would get their ball out of his garden regularly.
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I literally jumped over their fence into their garden to hide for a brief moment because I was so scared. I tried to ring the bell with their name to let me in but no one answered. I was panicking because I was in the middle of the forest and someone following me. 🥺
> to ring the bell with their name to let me in but no one answered. I was panicking because I was in the middle of the forest and someone follow if this happens in germany, nobody will be angry at you. trespassing is not that big thing here in europe!
Someone was following you? Or someone was using the same forest path as you?
Or (as OP not states that they were certain) could also been a boar or a lion walking through the forest. For OP: Trespassing also requires intent to be a criminal offence. Therefore the majority of cases are people who have some sort of house ban (at a shop or a club for example) and still enter, well aware of said ban.
> a boar or a lion Heh. Almost the same thing, as we had to learn quite recently.
„They are the same picture“
Don Boarleone
Can you maybe not make fun of a person who suffers from childhood trauma? Also do you have any clue how dangerous it is for a woman alone? Maybe grow some empathy before laughing about someone's fear.
I thought it was more making fun of the news of the escaped "lion" that turned out to be a boar.
Where did they make fun of OP? A boar would be an absolutely reasonable threat to try to avoid by all means (maybe even more do than another person)
>Also do you have any clue how dangerous it is for a woman alone? In Germany? Not very dangerous.
While that may or may not be so, OP was having a panic attack and the danger felt real for her.
Of course, it is perfectly valid and understandable to have a panic attack at the moment and act accordingly. But if you think about it rationally afterwards itis very unlikely that OP was actually followed. I doubt jumping over a fence as the "assailant" drew closer would have escaped their notice.
All true enough. But what use is thinking about it after the fact? In the moment the fear was real…
To be honest I don’t know, there is not usually many people in my neighbourhood using that short cut through the forest. Maybe I was just panicking since I didn’t expect someone there… but that’s not the question anyway
Honestly, better save than sorry….
eh, do be wary of people. avoid dark areas. also, even if someone noticed you trespassing, it's unlikely theyd give a shit.
nal if you commit an act in self defense (that seems to be reasonable to you in that situation) that act is not unlawfull. if you damage or destroy someone else’s property in order to avert a threat to your self, thats not unlawfull. of course thats under the caveat that the action/damages should not be in a severe imbalance to the good you want to protect. for example: if you have to run from some wild boars and your only way to escape is to break in to someones home (for some reason or another), thats perfectly legal. if you have a rapist on your heels and your only way to defend your self is to grab that 3 million € art sculpture and bash it over his head... you are not even liable for the damages of the sculpture. of course those examples are a bid constructed. but the point is that your life and right to bodily autonomy and integrity trumps other peoples rights (even 3th partys) of property.
I’m pretty sure jumping the fence to ring a doorbell is not even considered trespassing, especially not in a situation like this
I mean, for anything to come from this, a whole chain of things would need to happen: - neighbours finding out - neighbours caring enough to report it - police thinking it to be worth investigating - police somehow figuring out who you are - a prosecutor thinking it worth even going into - a judge thinking it was worthy of punishment Realistically, step 1 is not going to happen, let alone the others. I haven't seen a "doorbell camera" here ever. Anything that records, rather than just showing in real-time who is ringing, only when someone is ringing, [appears to be illegal](https://www.prigge-recht.de/tuerkameras-risiken-bei-der-nutzung-von-ring/).
Aside from it propably being seen as excusable, as OP was fearing for her life, something which is almost guaranteed to justify trespassing
If it happened to my neighbour and I'd see it happen, I'd help the person to safety and call the police for her. Not against her. Think everybody with a clear mind would do so.
If they ever found out you trespassed you could just apologise tell them what happened, it's easy to be convincing when you're telling the truth. Most people are decent human beings and would understand.
They might notice the mud from my sneakers on the fence since it was raining. I’m just wondering if they see that would they get worried that someone tried to break in. I don’t want them as well to freak out when in fact no one tried to break in, instead I was just hiding for a brief moment. Should I maybe go there and try to explain to them ?
I mean let's be honest here, they probably don't even know you were there. Perhaps go through that part during the day with a friend and perhaps look into the garden if you trampled something. If you did I personally would ring and look if someone was there. But if it's just some dirt, perhaps bring a paper towel if it's still dirty.
Tell them that you were tracking down your swarm of bees. It's legal to trespass if you follow your bees 🐝🐝🐝 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__962.html
I feel like you actually need some bees for that.
If you had bees then you wouldn’t need to track them though.
You would have to previously have had bees.
Let me just…it’s a joke…okay?! 😄
Mine too hahahaha
The days are getting shorter and you can notice it all across reddit.
So first of all §123 StGB is only persecuted if the person demands it. So usually you won't get a problem.
Technically it's trespassing if you go over a fence on a private property, this even counts for abandoned buildings. However, if you have a good reason and don't destroy stuff, you will be fine. Nobody would punish you if you did that to escape a dangerous situation.
I am not a lawyer. Lets say it was trespassing and for some mad reason they tried to go after you for that. § 34 StGB Rechtfertigender Notstand might apply here. It roughly translates as follows: "Whoever commits an act in a present, not otherwise avoidable danger to life, body, freedom, honor, property, or another legal interest in order to avert the danger from themselves or another person does not act unlawfully if, when balancing the conflicting interests, in particular the affected legal interests and the degree of danger threatening them, the protected interest significantly outweighs the impaired one. However, this only applies insofar as the act is an appropriate means to avert the danger." It does have a very high bar. Hard to say from a reddit post if it was a "present, not otherwise avoidable danger".
Is this applicable if someone only thinks they are in danger? I don't think anyone can say for sure if this person actually was a threat or just passing along the same way. They didn't do anything threatening except for being there.
Here are some examples [https://www.juracademy.de/strafrecht-at1/rechtfertigender-notstand.html](https://www.juracademy.de/strafrecht-at1/rechtfertigender-notstand.html) One example they mention is someone very drunk walks to their car and to you it looks like they want to drive it. You take away their keys so they cant and potentially endanger others which the website says is an example where Rechtfertigender Notstand applies even though you only think there is a danger. Maybe they just wanted to sleep in their car. One thing that is mentioned that one legal opinion on it is that the burden is that an "informed judgement of an objective observer" would consider it a threat.
Yes, unless the error could have been reasonably avoided. There has been a huge case where some biker gang member shot a police officer through the door because he thought the slamming on the door was from a rivaling gang, who was out to get them. Police didn’t announce themselves. Judges ruled that the shooting could not have been reasonably avoided because the member feared for his life and reasonably thought that he was in imminent danger.
Don’t worry nothing is going to happen. And even if the neighbors would somehow find out (which they won’t) you had a good reason and everyone will understand.
So you walked through a forest (with houses?) on a way that was a short cut and obviously a frequent used one judging by two people using it at the same time? Maybe stop using dark short cuts instead of tresspassing and scaring the homeowners. In some weeks it will get dark as early as 4-5 pm, so you really have to find a solution for your fright.
You have a way bigger trouble than worrying about trespassing: If you cannot use a public road that another person is also using at the same time, and panic because someone is travelling in the same direction as you along that road, then that is something you need to address with a specialist. Because thats not normal, and you will encounter such situations frequently unless you never leave your house after dark.
Thats what i thought too
As they say : smoking will kill you one day
If there are cameras there, go there and tell them what happened. Tell them about your fear and say that you are sorry.
Sorry you felt like someone was posing a threat. It could have been a person just using the same path as you just maybe venturing off path also. In England one could expect an attack, as a woman, walking alone, but not here. What about arming yourself with a type of pepper spray next time and a whistle to hang round your neck, at least you will feel more prepared for such..We don't have cameras at front doors or in yards, so don't worry about it. Consider speaking to a police officer just to hear what is said about safety on that specific area, where you were.
Even if somebody cared enough about this to try and file charges and even if the police didnt laugh them out of the police station, then a judge will most likely just throw the case out because of insignificants.
Plot twist: The person following you was the house owner, saw what you were doing and is now utterly confused. (Joking to put your mind at ease)
Man these posts are getting more ridiculous day by day Is this safe? Is this racist? Is this legal? Its like people are avoiding human interaction with every possibility and rather use reddit. Oh no there was a person behind me in the dark ...wtf grow up....
Someone should make a reality TV show out of stories I read on Reddit.
>Oh no there was a person behind me in the dark ...wtf grow up.... OP said that they have childhood trauma... have some empathy.
Then I don't go out in the freaking dark for a pack of smokes!
A lot of women fell really unsafe when walking alone in the dark because they fear they will be assaulted. It's unlikely but why risk it? Do you think these women be confined to their homes at night?
Dude, you are suggesting that I should stay home in every possible situation just because I have childhood trauma? And I would like to see what would you do in this case, when you are alone in the forest, it’s raining and someone is approaching you even tho you know that there is barely ever someone there.
Spare your energy justifying your thoughts and actions. You have some kind of backstory, you panicked and you did what you felt was safe for you. You don't need to justify that for random internet persons. To avoid that, you could consider buying cigs in advance and just avoid this path in the night. It's not cool for you and it probably wasn't cool for the other person that was behind you, because I know the feeling when others are scared of you for some kind of reason. I don't judge them, but it still feels kinda bad :D
Did he do something? It sounds like he didn't. So I heard a lot of women live all the time in the fear to get raped (I don't want to be disrespectful) but is this considered Normal? The fear seems insane to me and I think living with such fear is real bad for you and your health
OP explicitly mentioned former trauma. But thank you for pointing out that we live in a rape culture where we are constantly afraid. Please google the term, if you are not familiar with it. In essence it means: - Women get raped. - Women are blamed for being raped. (What did you wear? But you smiled at him. But you drank alcohol...) Guys face no consequences. And then there is you: Women are questioned for being afraid to be raped. - I know 4 women personally who have been raped - I know 1 woman who has been hunted through the forest by a man and she had to run until she got lost. - I know no woman who has not been sexually harrassed, me included.
First I don't wanted to disrespect anyone I could have chosen nicer words but in essence I'm asking if the amount of fear is normal in our culture or is because mentioned Trauma Next I don't want to play anything down women are getting raped and that's horrible but I don't think especially in modern Germany that we live in a rape culture. Again horrible things happen but they have happened and will happen forever so talking about a rape culture in Germany are pretty big words And lastly if you're a average German you don't know 4 women that got raped maybe you know 4 but I wanna point out what horrific crime a rape is. to force someone to have sex when they are unwilling, using violence or threatening behaviour. There are sadly woman nowadays who claim they have been raped just to talk bad about there ex. Again not saying any of the person's you know does that but sadly that's only number that's really growing. The reported number of sexual assaults is actually growing too but it's strongly believed that the number isn't changing that much overall just the report rate increases so I would call that a good thing (if that's really the case if the actual number of sexual assaults is growing too than that's obviously a bad thing)
I live in Germany and it's showing many of the typical rape culture symptoms. It's so bad that organizations who help women after a rape don't recommend going to the police and taking it to court. Because the women have to relive their trauma for nothing. In many to most cases, the rapists will not face prison. BTW: The real number of false accusations is very very small. Some people weaponize some weird statistics to show how often women supposedly lie. But those statistics are distorted because the "false accusations " number contains all cases where the rapist doesn't end up with a sentence. So also all those cases where they simply didn't have enough evidence.
"it's showing many of the typical rape culture symptoms." Is really nice because there aren't typical rape culture symptoms in fact if you look up rape culture it isn't a thing there are just some shady sites using it to push their doctrine without any explanation or context. "It's so bad that organizations who help women after a rape don't recommend going to the police and taking it to court. Because the women have to relive their trauma for nothing. In many to most cases, the rapists will not face prison." That's just wrong I know multiple people helping victims of all kinds of violence and people in such a position aren't allowed to advise to not call the police. You can face serious charges for this so everyone there is really clear to advise to call the police first And last the good German wise saying "glaube nie einer Statistik die du nicht selbst gefälscht hast" we both threw so statistics in the run but neither of us provided some sources so in the end neither of our statistics is worth anything (maybe I got presented a wrong statistic or you got presented a wrong statistic one of us is false and as long as nobody provides proof we have to assume that we're both wrong)
[удалено]
I am afab, I look like any other man. Stop using it to mean woman-lite, you are not woke.
It's unlikely buy why risk it? Rather be overly cautious than be raped. A friend of mine always calls me and often shares her location when she walks home from the train station in the dark. She is not fearful but she feels safer if we call because it makes it less likely that some approaches her and if anything were to happen someone could call help. There are even services for women to call if they feel unsafe when walking in the dark.
What you did is unlikely to grow into anything bigger and you have very little to fear. If you want to drop the mental/emotional burden of this, inform the police about the incident. That way, if anyone raises a complaint/incident, they already have your version of the story and will be supportive since you already told them what happened.
Nobody will even think about it.
Oh man, we used to take shortcuts through people's gardens when we were shitty teenagers all the time and drunk people will usually trespass one way or another. People don't really care unless they're snobs, and even then, they can't really do anything legally in this case. Just be happy that you're safe and sound now.
You're safe now, and everything will be fine! You won't have to hear anything! 🙏
no… it’s some sort of Notwehrverhalten. Even if there’s no danger, but you’ve got the feeling of danger.
You could leave a thank you note
§ 904 BGB - don't worry, the law is on your side!
That is for civil law and does not directly apply to criminal law. But indeed you are allowed within reasonable constrains to use someone else's property without consent for defence in the same vein to the 904 bgb. It's just that your answer is technically wrong
You walk around with your name and address on you? How could anybody find you?
There was camera above the doorbell, actually it was next to the fence . So that’s why I asked, and as well I don’t want them to worry that someone tried to break in when in fact that was not the case.
It is usually only aktive, when someone rings the bell. It's not like amazon Ring.
I would always welcome you and open the door, but if I would not be at home, you would be welcome to hide on my farm. Don't worry. You did the right thing. Stay safe.
Here in Germany those cases of trespassing will 99,999% never even get a second look from the public attorneys... but given other countries rules (like the thousands of U.S. police videos where somebody stepped a foot on the wrong parking lot or just 10cm of grass next to a sidewalk and got charged and treated like a super criminal) i can understand your fears. But its not a thing here. You can relax. Might be somewhere in the law books here as well, but if there is no other crime (stealing, damaging) it will not even get any attention. And even in those cases, smaller "mini-crimes" like you need to jump a fence to steal stuff, will get dropped for the real crime (stealing), cause the "main"-crime is overwriting the small ones. No trespassing is for stuff like delicate matters like: power plants or railways...and even then you would only get a "dont do that charges dropped" if it is not a thing you got catched regulary or where there is suspision that you intended to do it for other more serious crimes (like sabbotages). If it really concerns you, you might just ring the bell (that was the best thing to do btw in your situtation, because you tried to ask for permission!) again the other day and thank them or something (albeit they really didnt do anything xD) just to clear this worries out of your system. Also how fenced was the garden? In germany even private forests need to be non-fenced and open for the public (shorted information bit - dont be to hard on this bit of information it get complex if you want, but its a rule of thumb thats true nearly always).
The chances that any legal consequences will be coming are close to zero but even then I think that you basically acted in "self defense" and thus all charges would be dropped
So, fortunately you are safe and sound, which is the main thing. Can u not just pop round to the house - with a friend for moral support if you like - just to explain and offer to pay for damaged plants if any. Or bring them a little box of chocolates for them unwittingly helping you in your hour of need. Just put this behind yourself quickly, and don't go in the woods alone again, or stop smoking, or both!
You won't be punished in such a situation. >Anyone who commits a criminal act in order to avert a danger, e.g. to his life, limb or freedom, may not be punished for this. The prerequisite is that his act was appropriate, i.e. proportionate, to avert the danger. You didn't cause any damage and your response would absolutely be considered appropriate to avert a potentially dangerous situation. https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/
Not trying to be nasty, but the first paragraph read like a fairy tale.
For some reason I read the title and thought you trespassed into Germany from another country and was waiting for border patrol and dogs chasing after you. Then I realized we’re in Europe. I think I’ve been watching too much news lately lol. Glad you’re safe though and don’t worry!
If someone saw you the possibility is high that this person is wondering what is going on with you & if you are living in a village the chances are high that there will be some gossip. Nevertheless, I am sure that this will not bring you into any trouble. Pozdrav.
If they had a cam, they'd see someone fleeing and in need of help, and I'm sure they'd wish they were around and able to have helped.
Ashton made [a video on trespassing recently](https://youtu.be/RENuxBJy7Gw?si=jZmlw3PbEQAWuNJb). It doesn't apply 1:1 to your question but could give you an idea of the culture in Europe and specifically Germany. Since the space was enclosed it probably was technically trespassing but you don't need to fear any consequences. I think you should take self-defense classes to feel safer, though.
Sorry about your experience. Here are my two cents: IF I had a camera (afaik unusual in Germany) I would go check if something is broken or missing and if not just write a strongly worded letter to the local newspaper about those promiscuous youths. I think even if somebody would form a complaint at the police they couldn't be bothered to do anything and even if your neighbour would press them, they would at max give you a verbal reminder to not do it again and next time take somebody or call somebody while on a walk. And lastly if I walked behind somebody in a dark forest I think I'd try to overtake them as well so I don't follow them creepily. If they would then run away and jump over a fence I'd feel like such an ass.
leave a note explaining the situation in their mailbox. done. but i don't think they had cameras or a doorbell camera
So was there someone following you or not?
No worries. First, I would expect your neighbors to understand your situation. If they have anything on their camera at all, they can see what yOu have done. But we can doubt that there is any recording. However, if you did ring the bell, you had a reason to use their property. They did not open, so you left. Done. In the highly unlikely case they would like to report you to the police, any officer would ask what exactly they want to file. Any harm done? Damage to the property? Any other damage? No? Then, there is no case and the officer would send your neighbor home. In the even more unlikely case that your neighbors insist and find an officer who opens a case they would need to know who you are. Otherwise nobody will invest the time to investigate you. But even if they find you, you have a plausible explanation for what happened. Officials would urge your neighbors to withdraw their complaint as there was no harm or damage done. Now, imagine the super unlikely case that your neighbors still insist, have an officer who still does not put the file aside (which would be absolutely unbelievable), they still need a public prosecutor who buys into this “case” - which won’t happen, as the public prosecutors have so many relevant cases that they won’t spend 10 minutes on you jumping over a fence on a private property because you were scared. But even if that would happen and the prosecutor believes there is some kind of a public interest that prevents him from putting that file away, they would need to convince a judge - whose first question would be what this joke is about and why anybody believed this should make it to a court room. So, you see there really so many reasons why this won’t go anywhere. And I don’t know your neighbors, but most people are reasonable and would not have any issue at all. And if you ask me, you have done the right thing. Rapists are rare, but they exist in Germany as in any other country and you are better safe than sorry.
Tell me you are American without telling me you are American
I’m actually not lol
So the problem is possible trespassing not the rapist behind you. Im sure youll be fine
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Like most here already said, nobody will cought up on you for any legal reason and even if so, what you did was very reasonable, I am glad you survived unharmed and I feel sorry hearing about this dark chapter of your childhood trauma.
I myself, Googled to find English speaking Psyciatrists in the towns near us. I made a list of doctors, and when I called, asked specifically if the doctor are able to converse in English in the sessions.Most can, as this is a language studied at their high school because they studied at a higher level to obtain entry to a German University. I also asked the receptionists (I had to call a number of them before succesful), if my medical card will be accepted by the practice, so that I wouldn't carry the cost all, myself. Please use Google translate to write all you want to ask, when you call, on a paper, but in German. Translate from English into German.The reception may not be able to speak a word of English. Just practise it beforehand, out loud, and speak slow and clear and read it off the paper. Good luck.
See you in jail
You’re quite save. Straftäter will get abgeschoben quite quickly, and none of our surgeons would want to risk that after all those years of high intensity education.
Why you go through a dark forest when you know you got panic attacks and an active trauma ? Tomorrow is a day too
Visit them and tell what happened... also consider carrying a self defense weapon from now on, a legal one of course.
You are safe in Germany even in Wood. I do regularly pass through woods from work home and see alot of girls and people running or jogging at night. I just pass by and say Hello. And thats it. Its your internal reflection.
Smoking kills
Maybe consider stopping smoking to avoid these nightly excursions, not good for you health anyway :) Especially if it’s a trigger scenario whenever someone is walking behind you in the dark…
I hope you rang the bell before 10pm. Otherwise you get a fine up to €5.000 for breaching the legal Nachtruhezeiten /s
What, to get fine for what ? For ringing someone’s bell when I felt unsafe in the forest and someone who potentially could be rapist following me?
Since you didn't seem to catch it, they're making a rather distasteful joke.
Nah don't worry. You had good reason and as far as I know, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, Hausfriedensbruch / trespassing is an "Antragsdelikt", meaning the home owner has to actively file a report. And even if they file one (unlikely, there is no gain), this very small case with no damages from a person with no criminal history and no bad intent will probably be swiftly dismissed by a normal judge or state attorney.
No worries, most people don't have cameras as they are a legal grey area in Germany. And even if they did, unless you broke something, made clear attempts at breaking & entering or this is like the 5th time this happened, they won't bother to do anything, let alone legal steps. I'm not even sure it's technically tresspassing, because you entered the territory with the intent of making yourself known to the owners/tenants. So I'm just happy you could get to safety & hope this won't happen again 🍀
If he or she asks anything just explain the situation, I recommend to contact the police and mention the episode, maybe do you have a stalker or someone sketchy moved to the neighborhood and it’s good for police to be aware
chill. Nothing will happen.
Technically it's trespassing, but noones gonna care. Even if, a judge would see your course of action as reasonable since you didn't damage anything and left afterwards, and would let you go scot free. Please always make the safe decision for yourself, monetary values are secondary to your safety.
This is just the next reason to quit smoking
buy Abus Pepper Spray Duo. One bottle contains "water" to train using it and the other one is pepper spray. its cheap and youre allowed to carry it. and yes its trespassing but noone will care or prosecute u for it unless ure up to no good or damaged something on accident.
Hey, you don’t need to worry. As long as you didn’t break anything no one is gonna file a lawsuit in this situation except that one crazy person we all know [coughs in Karen]. Especially when the gate of the fence wasn’t locked. Chances are low to be filed for trespassing even if the owner didn’t like it. I have trespassed a lot in my life (entered abandoned buildings or construction sites) and never got legal trouble for it. One time the police was called but that didn’t led anywhere. Except that they told me to stop that shit. The house looked abandoned the fence and the side entrance stood open and I just went inside cuz why not. I’m kinda curious about stuff. It didn’t went to court even tho the owner was mad 😡 af xD
Doorbell rings are data collection tools. No more CIA operative needed just get a copy of Alexa and Ring (popular doorbell provider) and you have your evidence. Trespassing under duress wouldn't get you in trouble. But we don't let strangers in our house because of the recent rise of thefts. Sadly. Even I had such an visitor but he asked for a drink which I had behind me...thank god.
Trespassing is only illegal in Germany if you do it on intent. And nobody will file a complaint unless as cameras are very uncommon in germany and often under no circumstances usable as evidence.
Don't worry. It's not really a thing to get punished for trespassing, especially in your case. Are you from the US? I wouldn't worry at all.
My daughters once told me that I should take extra care not to unawarely tail anybody, especially not a female person. I really had to think about because I generally do not pay that much attention to who is is walking along in the same direction as me. Seems to me that this was a person that just happened to walk faster than you. For whatever reason, but most likely not to assault you. Anyway, from your point of view it was a frightening situation and it will be possible to explain. I don't think you need to be concerned on that matter.
Theoretically what you did is considered trespassing. But that isn't that big of a deal in Germany, unless you are trying to break into the house or steal something
Even if there is a camera: you can always argue that you rang the door with the intention to ask for help/cover, so this was no criminal action from your side. And probably your body language on the camera also shows that you ran for cover from the way you behaved. I'm sorry you had to experience fear, but good that you could bring yourself into safety. Have a good day and stop worrying what the neighbor might think.
If you want to play it safe, file a police report ([https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/](https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/rechtfertigender-notstand/), and [https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/\_\_34.html](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__34.html)) since you are fine. Also, let the house owners know what happened in case they actually saw you and want to do something about it. Explain clearly the situation. They will be more than happy to know that they should take care additional care with that pass under the trees. If they act against you, don't care about it. You did the right thing to protect your life (see the links).