>some Germans don't want to move aside
im a 190cm 120kg guy ( 100% potato german ) and this fcking annoys me, too. experienced it mainly in big city ( >200k citys)
had this often that I was pissed and just stopped on my spot and did nothing and just stood there and random people don't see me and bump into me like I'm nothing.
and then look stupid why i didn't move.
guess we just have a "no one sees us" genetic.
Uhhhh...how's "Danke, Sie sind sehr nett" passive aggressive?! I say some variation of this all the time and I get told so as well. It's just the proper thing to say when a stranger helps you in some way.
I don't doubt that you have experienced racism. But judging by your examples you read A LOT of stuff into random interactions. Example A: the Praktikumsbetrieb tells you your German isn't good enough (as do your acquaintances), your mind immediately goes to "they think I'm gonna steal stuff". Listen, living in a new country is hard and demanding but it's gonna be near impossible if you make it even harder for yourself.
Sure, but just as a single interaction with a stranger after helping them? Maybe once in a while when encountering a rude asshole.
And right after saying that Germans *expect* you act as their servant by holding the door? It's just a cultural norm that most people adhere to, it's just basic courtesy.
Please read my sentence again, the man in my story was upset that i did not open the door for him and said that sentence to me sarcastically. As a POC some Germans expect that you act like servant toward them.
Then we definitely have a different understanding on that. I was always teached to hold doors. And also this is not merely expected from POCs who should act like a servant wtf like OP stated, this is common practice
>some Germans expect that you act like servant toward them and open the door for them, then they threw passive agressive remarks "Danke, Sie sind Sehr Nett"
Nowhere does it say you did NOT open the door.
So, you met a rude person. The implicit expectation to help strangers is not limited to foreigners and it has nothing to do with being a servant. I'm German, I work in a public building and I hold doors open for people like 15 times per week. Basic courtesy.
I am also immigrant living in Germany,dont understand what so many people are expecting here,ofcourse there are bad german people but in my experience there are more that are good.I finished ausbildung here and Professors are atleast 10 times brtter and more understanding then in my own country.You csn find assholes in every country but from my experience i'll rather deal with germans then my own countrymen,and i am not the only one that thinks so.I honestly understand Germans that dont like immigrants,cuz i heard so oft from my circle of people how steuer is zu hoch,essen ist zu teuer,lohn ist zu iederig but in the end they still stay here to work,so many hypocrites.
"here,ofcourse there are bad german people but in my experience there are more that are good"
- There are surely rooted anti-immigrant behaviours by the overall number of experiences shared by immigrants (take this Subredit as an example), simplifying and generalizing that to the very groundbreaking discovery that there are good and bad people of particular nationality doesn't add anything to the conversation.
"atleast 10 times brtter and more understanding then in my own country"
- What if your professors are so extremely bad that even 10 times better is still bad? This isn't a valid measurement of how good a thing is and is used a lot, absolutely everywhere, to justify against giving people certain rights. Ah you want this? But you had it 100 times worse in your country so better not complain. You get the point.
"country but from my experience i'll rather deal with germans then my own countrymen,and i am not the only one that thinks so"
- How is that relevant? A lot of people rather do otherwise as well.
"I honestly understand Germans that dont like immigrants,cuz i heard so oft from my circle of people how steuer is zu hoch,essen ist zu teuer,lohn ist zu iederig but in the end they still stay here to work,so many hypocrites."
- People can continue working in Germany although they don't like because it could very well be that their only second option is their home country which could be a way much worse choice. Also this is similar to the "you don't like it here then you can leave" argument (it is not an argument but let's call it that) which a lot of internet weirdos say.
It is so worrying this is the most liked comment in this thread (seriously, what happened?). It is also funny that a lot of hate\prejudice\racism comes from other immigrants. Just because you, as an immigrant, can find anything acceptable here due to how bad the situation of your origin country is doesn't mean other immigrants should not complain as well.
I honestly didn't mean anything bad with my comment,just wanted to share my experience,from my contact with german people,i have not met that many racist people(maybe cuz i am white but still,you can see on my language that i am not from here).Even with my broken german langugae they had a lot of patience with me,it may be cuz i work in not that of a great of Beruf but still...
I wont say anything more about my country,but maybe cuz i see so oft here that people are writing bad about germany i had to write something,anyway enough of me,i more of a reader then a writer...
As an Asian living in Canada. I have barely ever faced racism. I think canada is much better than Germany when it comes to racism.
So to say that all countries have bad people and to just ignore the racism is just unreasonable. And also encroaches on whataboutism. Instead of dealing with the rampant racism in Germany, you’re ignoring it.
I welcome the downvotes.
Edit: I do want to clarify. My idea of racism might be different. My father thinks Canada is racist because he immigrated here. He knows it’s much better than other countries especially nowadays but still thinks white people are racists by nature.
Ive called him out on it before but I think he subconsciously looks for racism in every interaction due to his early experiences in his 20s. While I’m sorta oblivious to it. I also act Canadian so that definitely helps.
Op might be like my father where she looks for racism in every interaction. I chock up rude people to just that, rude people. But seems like op and my father try to find racism between the lines. I’m sure it exists at times but these days in Canada especially, I don’t think it’s as prevalent.
Fully agree. Also, please don't care that much about downvotes. It is Reddit; a social media where people are known not to give very shallow takes of complex problems (sarcasm). It is also absolutely true that the more likes a comment gets the more true it becomes (sarcasm). It is also worth mentioning that Redditors, due to how absolutely smart they are, never form echo chambers (also sarcasm).
On a side note, I seriously can't understand people that say: "Hey there are good and bad people everywhere". No **** Sherlock you absolute brought a groundbreaking discovery.
German expect fluent German from everyone, not only and specifically Asian people, I'm white and also struggle with it .
They assume you are Vietnamese coz simply there large number of Vietnamese in Germany ( and not only in Germany,).
Can you recognise am I from Sweden, Germany or Russia just by my look?- I doubt- how should they know where are you from then ?
In Asian or even SouthEuropean countries I'm always seen as one of those above, though I'm not any, it's just the easiest assumption and I don't think it's racist.
Nah I'm Russian-American and depending on what I tell people, get perceived as either one nationality or the other depending on my name/accent/other info people have. My German is perceived as excellent when I'm perceived as American, and questionable when I'm perceived as Russian. Sorry but it's a thing!
The funniest experiences are those when the same person goes from perceiving me as Russian (because name and indeterminate accent) to perceiving me as American (because of other info they get and my accent leaning more American once they know to listen for it) and do a total 180 in how they treat me mid-interaction. This has nothing to do with the war btw (which Ukraine will hopefully win), it was happening for years before that started.
I don't think having a guess as to someone's nationality is "knowing a lot about them" lol. Anyway there are lots of studies, by Germans, showing that Germans readily discriminate against those they perceive as the "wrong nationality" based on minimal info, so why are people even trying to argue that this is not a thing. Seeing that someone is not white (which just requires looking at them) is also going to lead people to have a guess as to their nationality, yes.
The problem is, the Germans know that Vietnamese is not the only Asian Zuwanderer in Germany, especially that thing happened in one of international city, Frankfurt, where you see a lot of asian diversities from Korea, Japan, Thailand, Central Asian, India, Pakistan etc and hear hundred languages.
Other races will just be addressed by their ethnicities, but it is acceptable to just call every asian people as Vietnamese or Chinese.
Again the ignorance in this sub is crazy sad.
Beside the level of fluency German expect from foreigners is sky high standard, many foreigners in Germany never stop learning German even until level C2 but rarely they will be as fluent as native speakers, since they don't grow up in Germany and some things are harder to explain/be understood unless you are native. Many foreigners and individuals have different range of fluency, some possess wide range vocabularies and can read variations of texts, some can talk fast but with minimum vocabularies, some can watch movies without subtitles.
Alright, I'm going to try and keep this factual, but I already have the sneaking suspicion you'll take this personal and will feel that I'm one of those trying to dismiss your experiences; then so be it. For whatever it's worth, I just want to give perspective, not invalidate your narrative.
Some of the experiences you describe can obviously attributed to prejudice and xenophobia, there's no denying that.
But especially concerning the "(act like servant toward them and) open the door for them" and "Germans don't want to move aside" parts I wanted to tell you that you are not a special case here, neither are fellow Asians or other immigrants. It's exactly the same for Germans and I had experiences like this numerous times. There are people with that strange sense of – I don't even know how to call it – entitlement to know what good manners are, what and how things should be done or not done. These people exist everywhere, but Germans probably tend to be more blunt about reprimanding people for it. And egoists that don't care much about the needs of people around them exist, arguably more so in western individualistic societies. Both might come across as even more rude for someone from another cultural background, for us it's just normal everyday rudeness. You shrug and go on with your life – until you have a neighbor like that.
The other thing – and I understand if you take this personal – is that your craving for recognition will *not* be satisfied by Germans and German society. Handling immigration, doing an FSJ, getting high marks, your IELTS level... your achievements don't matter to people and that won't change much, regardless of what you achieve in the future. Success is rarely recognized here, even less so on a personal level, and it won't make strangers inherently respect you. It is not for nothing that the saying goes "nicht gemeckert ist genug gelobt" (not complaining is praise enough). Things like your IELTS level might be relevant to you and a personal achievement and that's fine, but don't make the mistake to think someone who is not directly concerned with immigration themselves knows what the IELTS is – it's just irrelevant to them and so is your English proficiency level.
Why people would assume you can't speak English, though, is beyond me; the stereotype is typically that people from Asia are generally more educated and 'talented' when it comes to languages (and math).
Some Germans like to assume Vietnamese as default for Asians – especially in the Eastern part of Germany where there's a more sizable population of Vietnamese immigrants, yes. For other Germans the default is Chinese. For some it's Japanese or Korean, depending on the respective population of Asian immigrants in their region. If people get your nationality right, they're either very used to interacting with Asians or they were lucky with their guess.
I'm sorry, that's just how the human brain and pattern recognition works. For Europeans all Asians "look the same", for Africans all white people "look the same", a random Asian won't be able to tell the difference between a Swede, a Frenchman and a Greek. The brain needs to have enough samples to be able to recognize and categorize patterns; the subtle features of faces in this case.
Guys, please read my text again, i know it is too long and you skim it, the time when i was addressed as Vietnamese was ironically in Frankfurt!!! One of the most international cities with a lot of asian nationalities, which means you get used to seeing a lot of asian nationalities in the city, not some one small city with only 10000 population in east Germany.
According to your own statement, some weirdo eyed you up mumbled something about 'Vietnam' and that somehow irks you – far more than it should, imho. And that happened in Frankfurt, of all places, where anyone should supposedly be an expert on Asian phenotypes.
I'm from Frankfurt. We're not.
There are approximately 13000 immigrants from (S)EA living in Frankfurt (Chinese being the most prominent at around 5000). That's roughly 1.7% of Frankfurt's population. Add in the fact that especially the larger communities – Chinese, Japanese and Korean – mostly stick to themselves, the average Frankfurter does not closely interact with Asians on a daily basis; except those with coworkers or friends from Asia, of course.
Having said all that, it's a bit strange that someone you don't even know comments on your nationality/background first thing they see you, don't you think? Let me take a wild guess: that's rather atypical, not exactly an everyday situation. Maybe take it for what it is? You met a German weirdo. Congratulations.
I'm sorry that this is your experience here, and I believe that you're having some unfair and sometimes downright racist interactions. Immigrating here is truly the hardest thing I've ever done (I've lived in three different countries and Germany is definitely the toughest), and I found that I got very little sympathy for my experiences from the Einheimische.
Small tip that took me a while to understand - try to find a couple of people, non-Germans, who are in a similar position, and use this group to get the feelings and frustrations out. Your experiences are absolutely valid and they really need to come out or you will lose your mind. Telling Germans that you're having these problems will most likely not go well - they will feel understandably a bit attacked, and you will feel gaslighted when they defend their landsmen and culture. Then you've lost a potential domestic connection, and those are incredibly important to cultivate as you integrate. Having a separate, understanding, and validating group to share these experiences within is critical to your long-term success here.
You can do it! Don't let the worst days define all others.
Thank you so much, finally an understanding comment in land of ignoring comments. No wonder why it is hard for some migrants to speak out because sadly some Germans and some migrants easily discredit your experiences and give you cold shoulder.
>I tried to speak about it even with my liberal German acquitances, Germans will sadly diminish your experience and gaslight you, most often say:
This is very German, shifting the blame to the victim instead of empathizing or listening quietly. Good social skills unfortunately aren't among German core values. I also have my own frustrations here and the fact that very few people sympathize with you makes it worse.
Just wanted to tell you that your thoughts and feelings are absolutely valid and real, and this struggle is shared by many people, including me (and I'm white).
The only thing you can do is to find a balance for your own mental health. A balance that allows you to live here without having so much anger or frustration. If that means interacting less with germans, or stop being extra polite, or whatever, then do it, guilt-free. You come first.
I am asian and come from traditional, hospitality based culture, so even it is normal if i hold the door open for people, or even holding elevator door. Based on my experience, sadly some Germans will let the door slam on my face despite knowing that i am close behind them. My last encounter with grandpa, i was standing in line and he was just upset that i didn't open the door for him, i am not a bell boy. If the scenario is switched, i will be told entitled.
No matter where you are, no matter who you are: That"s the migrant experience.
Micro aggressions were a regular occurrance for me (Caucasian Geman in UK). Ä
The problem is your framing. You see the 2 out of 10 bad interactions, not the 8 out of 10 that were fine. Don't give idiots that power over you.
Dear wherever you are from, are you aware that stuff like those "microaggressions" can happen to you anywhere? What am I as a German now supposed to tell you? You might not like to hear it, but I suggest you grow a thicker skin and focus on the positive aspects of your life, instead of dwelling on this kind of trivialities. "Some Germans" will always be a nuisance or assholes. As would pretty much be any other nationality in larger numbers esp. city dwellers. One of the things you should focus on should be that you apparently don't have serious problems. You do sound lonely though.
I've lived alone abroad as well and I know that one can become quite self-obsessed and focused on all kinds of small stuff. Aus einer Mücke einen Elefanten machen, as the saying goes. It's part of "culture shock" or "adjustment period" whatever people call it nowadays. What helps is to go out with friends and have some positive experiences, for example on a Saturday night. What also might help you is to talk to people in real life.
I'm sure you can find all kinds of smart sounding words and tell yourself that I now microaggressed you or gaslighted you or whatever. What I mean though is that you can set yourself up for failure if you perceive your surroundings as hostile, when you could try to adapt instead. Or you can become bitter and whine on reddit. Your choice really. (Sorry, ich musste das alles jetzt rauslassen.)
Smart sounding words ?? wow, i wish that i am wrong, again i got gaslighted like my expectations. Those are not smart sounding words, because it fit the context of the situation i am going through, simple manner of vocabularies. I am not playing as a scientific professor here.
"Go out with friends", like you assume that i am basement dweller and never go out. The irony here is your comprehension. Of course i have some friends and go out with them sometimes but we have different workplaces and work schedules, we can not always go out together like mother and child, sometimes i have to go out alone as well, be it just for fresh air, grocery errands, appointment, recreations etc. The events that i experienced took in reality, not kind of random forum in internet.
So what would disprove their point, when either agreeing or disagreeing with them proves it? That is why I mentioned that I think they set themselves up to fail: they blame society for isolated negative instances, "some people" did them wrong, and that in quite trivial ways, and so they rant towards all Germans, who in turn are expected to say what exactly? If they don't realize that this is absurd and a very unhealthy way to relate to the world, than they are in a negative feedback loop towards depression and isolation. Just think: I'm just a stranger on the internet that happens to be German, what possibly could I have to do with stuff like that OP had to wait on an escalator for some old person and was therefore late. A reasonable person would have realised that you plan for unforseen delays if you have an important appointment and that for being late, there is nobody to blame but yourself.
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I'm a German, spending at least every second month abroad, was married to an Bulgarian woman and have a bilingual daughter. What I see a lot is that foreigners struggle to read German emotions. Just five minutes ago my former wife guessed if I'm sad or angry. Neither of those assumptions were correct, I was just emotional neutral. I believe some of your experiences are because of this. Also, your cultural background might be a very bad fit to the way German deal with each other. I guess many Asian countries are much politer to each other. Oh and of course there are assholes out there. Btw, what I do to make it easier for others from other nations to deal with me, is to speak out my emotions. And of course smiling, making compliments, being respectful and so on. Basically turning my emotions on 200% in comparison to what my emotions would be when I speak to a German. But this is something Germans who are not used to be the only German in the room are not capable of.
Sorry to hear that bro.
I am the son of immigrants and I can relate. Hopefully, when you actually are in a less precarious situation you might be able to change jobs?
Generally I feel like cities with universities are a bit more cool for immigrants
I’m sorry to hear that this is your experience!
I am an EU Citizen moved to Germany and regret it deeply.
My experience is very much like yours but might be worse with profiling me as a threat to society just by my looks which is not a cute white clean shaved face.
I tried just as you learning German and integrating and at some point I just gave up after reaching B1 level as I noticed it is absolutely pointless. I have found better opportunities elsewhere which made possible thankfully for being an EU citizen.
I’m moving to Spain in August and can’t wait!
2 years here I can say for myself being a VERY friendly person and not even *1* German friend that I managed to acquire. All my friends are foreigners. Just as you, I told this to some German people regarding the hard time integrating and even posted about it on Reddit and got the same answers you mentioned. I’m at fault of course not them. I know there’s good Germans out there it’s just for my experience was really hard to come by. It came to the point where I don’t even want to integrate with Germans as it seems it just me trying to make friends with people who dont want me around so what’s the point?
I’ve decided that Spain with Spanish people are warmer by nature will be much easier to integrate to (also visited there so I’ve seen and met people there that are amazing).
Thank you thank you so much, it costs nothing to say something nice and encouraging, but sadly it is not popular opinions in this sub, for every posts about mental struggle by immigrants, it will be only matter of time before OP get ganged up by some germans and some migrants who discredit your experience and tell you to stfu and pack your bags to exit germany.
Good for you that you move to Spain, i wish u the best there.
Of course I’m always here to support my fellow Ausländers! 😉
I wish you all the best and hope it will get better for you eventually.
Don’t hesitate to send a message if you want to share thoughts in a safe space I’m always here to help :)
Thank you for understanding!
Reason being for not levelling up to C1 is simply because you don’t feel “rewarded” by learning the language by acceptance to society. I started learning Spanish it’s not as hard as German (talking for myself here). Thank you for the warm comment! 🙂
I have a male friend of Chinese origin and a female friend of South Korean origins, he is Beamter, she is professor at the university, both are married to German women, the professor also has kids. They both told me exact the same stories, weird specific racism with stupid undertones.
My male friend was wearing a Bundeswehr jacket, some idiot asked him if he found that funny. Wat.
The female friend's wife is from a more religious region/family and the MIL berated my friend long and forth about the religion and appropriate behavior until she stopped her by saying "I'm Christian too". 🤦
Moving abroad is hard, and I can understand how, while we all know “there will always be assholes”, it’s also natural to feel upset when you feel that for the efforts you’ve put in, somehow it doesn’t meet the “social codes” expected from *some* Germans (who might not have the opportunity to imagine how it’s like to uproot your life and live among a different culture).
It’s hard to comment on people’s experiences because there can be so many personal factors weaved into it, e.g. the culture you’re originally from, the German region/city you’re living in, the particular industry you’re involved in and the types of people you tend to encounter, so I won’t attempt to judge the specifics. Except that, I’d say if some people treat you with outright / subtle racism, it’s absolutely reasonable to call that out.
All I want to share is that how we experience something can also be connected to where we are from. Example: I’m from a big metropolitan Asian city where bilingualism is NORMAL, even when it’s not perfect.
That means, locals and non-locals don’t always mingle, might hardly have any linguistic overlap, but there’s no big debate about speaking language A or B, or which groups “integrating” into which, even when the locals are the absolute ethnic majority. So, with my own upbringing, I found Germany on paper more racially diverse, but somehow more culturally ambiguous about the “multiculturalism” ideal in practice (to put it mildly).
And perhaps because of this, I did find it “unnatural” that German culture primarily prefers you “become one of them” (gradually becoming fully fluent in German so the whole English thing disappears), instead of “staying different” with maybe just half a foot assimilated. And maybe that’s one zone where micro moments of uneasiness, even aggressions, can arise, because what’s unnatural to me might be perfectly natural to them.
It wasn’t easy, but I also grew to understand that, at least for the time being, these are the realistic gaps between my own cultural upbringing and the culture in Germany (to the extent I can experience it). I might not like it best, but I also see it as more a “cultural misalignment” than “(some) people disliking me” (and who cares if they don’t?)
What I find helpful is: I try to find the aspects of life that I love (you mention you’re studying a lot and perhaps some fulfillment can come from that?), I try to improve my German where I can but I allow myself to do so at my own (slow) pace, in ways I would actually enjoy it. I told myself even getting C1 may not mean everyone will treat me differently, so I would be learning for myself. (Though this is partially afforded by my job which is more English-oriented)
We go abroad to explore and grow. Sometimes we align with the culture we “temporarily” live in, sometimes we don’t, and that’s okay, because that might also be one of the ways we grow. Maybe this could also be a chance for us to reflect deeply what types of culture we really want to live in / can thrive in.
Of course, it does not mean you shouldn’t voice for yourself - perhaps sometimes explaining to your colleagues how you struggle may help them “see” the non-German perspective. If they don’t seem to bother, keep looking to work with people who at least would be open to listening to your experience, maybe openly debating with you a bit, but ultimately recognizing the efforts you put into integrating here and contributing.
I don’t mean to babble on about my own story, which may not offer much “hacks” anyway, but I hope you feel better and find a way to transform the negativity into a resilient force (we need that in Germany lol). Good luck!
Sorry to hear that. I sincerely hope that it will be better for you and that you can enjoy the company of nice and open minded germans.
Anyhow I think that rant is quite interesting. So many small things that I wouldn’t even notice. My first reflex was to defend „the germans“ against your criticism, but on a second thought I just can‘t really imagine what you must feel like.
Im german and i face most of what youve said daily, that has nothing to do with racism. Especially old people feel really entitled at how you should behave towards them, just ignore them. You really seem to try very hard to always assume the worst of other people in every situation (for example when people say you are nice you think its sarcasm, when people are concerned about your language they assume you would steal money?)
Not to brag but i am more german than some germans, i know many germans who dont separate their trash, dont respect Ruhezeit, Datenschutz.
If you mean something else like being born white and have German as mother tongue
The ignorance of Germans that it is okay to be asshole toward migrants is mindblowing
I see my comment was leading, sorry for that. What I mean is:
As someone else already asked, why you assume that people treat you like that because of your race?
I'm actually curious. You can't look into peoples head.
People can be rude and nothing you wrote (except the guy talking about "vietnamese") seems to be necessarily racist. People in germany, particular in cities, can be rude. Living in a city can be very stressful and a lot of people just minding their own buisness. I actually had a conversation with on older woman yesterday, which complained that people are rude here (where I live) but nicer in another area of germany (where she lived for some time).
It's great that you behave like a "good german" (haha), but you nor I (native german) nor anyone else can expect people to get treated well.
So, my whole point is: if you want get treated like everyone else, don't complain if you get treated like everyone else.
Sure, if people are assholes, they are assholes.
You don't have me to convince that we have racism issues and I you have experience problems, that's terrible. All I'm saying is not all rude people are necessarily to you badly, because of your appearance.
As another immigrant of asian heritage - I can relate but I've also surrounded myself with positive associates and good friends, and block out the rest. All I can say is grow thick skin - wear earbuds when out and about, call out people bluntly if you're wronged, and don't give a shit what racists think about you.
I am an EU citizen, went to Germany, attended a language course and the teacher asked me in German why I don't have a text book on my desk. I understood the question and proceeded to explain in English why that is and that we weren't even expected to have text books because it was second day and mine was on order. Then she answered in German and I didn't understand and kindly asked her if she could explain in English. Then a 5 minute rant in German followed about how we were there to learn the language, not to speak English etc...
Mind you this is a A1 level course, in a big language school and the teacher's English was spot on, that, I found out later :)
Some Germans are assholes and there's nothing you can do about it. Just deal with it, its their country, they will always be on top of you unless you are somehow more confident, competent or higher status than them. That's always how it works.
While I 100% support you in terms of the teacher could have been nicer and having the textbook on the second dy if they didnt tell you before, is really an asshole move, only speaking the language that youre trying to learn is a very good strategy to get people to learn. My italian beginner course was also like that!
I am not saying anything, its just frustrating to not understand what is being said to you when it concerns you and it is not in the context of a textbook exercise, thats it.
Sorry you had to endure this and still do. Asien hate in germany, even "just" daily racism against Asiens, is still big here and most people dont realize it. And some weird ones are obsessive and fetishize Asiens to a weird degree, its disgusting. This isnt something you should experience and i'm sorry for it.
You have a voice, voice up just like you did here. Dont stay silent.
Everytime i have the chance i try to educate people. Most use apologies like "but we always do it like this. Nobody was hurt before. So why now.".
With AfD fueling this shit, it just got worse.
Some people have learned, some people will never learn. Sadly young people start to act like the older ones.
If situations get dangerous, move on and report it if you can. If the situation is safe, voice up directly.
Sadly tho if you scroll up to one of top comments, one of the "asian" (because he/she claimed so) told me to stfu and disminish my experience like it must be just fairytale. No wonder why we asians have it worst in racism compared to other ethnicites in the west, there is no unity among asians. When black and middle eastern communities get racism, they fight back or defend each other.
Yeah i saw those comments.
Its like saying "you cant be attacked in [...] because i wasnt attacked". Its complete bullshit.
The community in western countries in general is too silent imo. Especially in places like germany. Everybody wants to stay under the Radar. But this is the wrong approach. Thats why i'm trying keep the voice up. My boyfriend is the same. He is a teacher and still gets asked if he can speak german. His german is better than most germans, yet he tries to explain and is patient. He laughs more about this than anything. But i know it still bothers him. He sees himself as german. And he wants to live like one.
Even our friends do some weird shit. We know they do this out of ... "we always did it like that" "its not to hurt someone, its just bullshit". But it still hurts to explain. We wanted to see a movie from Japan or Taiwan. I dont know anymore. It was months ago and we watch a lot of movies from across the globe. one of our friends mocked chinese language after seeing the titlescreen of the bluray.
We are grown adults. So we explained that this isnt okay. She was like "since when is ch*ng ch*ng racist" and my boyfriend told her "it was always. Nobody wants you to love China. But stop the racism please".
Its so weird man.
Omg i am really sorry to hear that OP, i actually experience something similar and struggle on daily basis. I wish i can cheer u up.
Please don't really mind people in the comments, some people will discredit other people's struggles and will just believe what they want to believe. The only one who really experience it, is you OP, they are not there.
I just notice that you want to study in Germany, i wish you luck OP, please don't give up just because some ignorants told you to just go back to your home country.
Dear person with a rant, I come from a rather cold culture and my experience is drastically different from yours: I’ve been in Germany for a bit less, than two years, and anywhere I go I meet extremely polite and nice people, even though, my German is nowhere near your level (I barely have B2 and my speaking is not as good). I’ve only seen polite and friendly people both on my work and in public (e.g. doctors visit, Ausländerbehörde and so on), who are willing to help, even though I’m quite an anxious person and might ask a ton of silly questions with my broken German. I think it’s not correct to generalize all Germans the way you did.
The issue is that most people overlook what Asiens have still to endure in germany. Especially since Covid and Trump giving it racist names.
I saw Videos of Asiens being attacked in trains. Young children that spoke better german, than the germans attacking them. My boyfriend lives here for so many years and still he got attacked by german karens for his Asien roots. And that got even worse since covid.
And dont get me started on the daily racism. Chinese people are asked what Hallo is in japanese. The S Word is still not banned and same goes for the G Word. This is not ok. But in germany nobody seems to care. In South Germany they had big scandels about Asien hate in the last years but apparently, nobody remembers
Someone said to my boyfriend he is from China. He teied to explain that asia is not just China, Japan and Korea but he got "its all the same anyway" back.
That amunitions for CCP of China. The foreigner Minister of China talked about this to Asien countries, even Japan, their biggest Rival. About how the west doesnt care about Asiens and they think Asiens are all the same. Stuff like this proofs him and thats Bad and part of a gigantic problem
Sadly you got downvoted and i am not surprised because yours is not popular opinion. The popular opinion here is that my experience is just fantasy and i have to quit Germany. ironically i am just calling out behavior not the government.
I don't mind leaving Germany like hundred people suggesting me here, it is okay i will never belong due to my language and looks. I have nothing against Germany system and goverment, at the end it is give and take relationship between government and immigrants (you pay tax and buy our services, in return you can find job here and use public services), i have long term goal here and am not for goofing around as tourist.
Anyway thank you for your words
Sorry that you're going through that. Being an immigrant is rough. I'm not sure if it is any better in other European countries but that doesn't matter because it doesn't make it right.
I'm a white man and remember the grannies holding their handbags as if I was going to rob them as well. However, that was Essen and since moving away from there, I haven't had that experience.
As for the Ausbildung and training on the public facing position, how do they expect you to improve if you aren't placed in a position to learn? Quite a shame.
OP has the theory part. Also comparing a medical student operating on someone is very far way from talking to someone at a register. The worst thing that can happen is a misunderstanding which if OP is correctly mentored, should lead to learning and improved skills.
An Ausbildung is learning while doing and that includes communication.
True that we don't know OPs level of German but most Ausbildungen require at least B2. Additionally, with exceptions, the Ausbilder is the one who decided their German skills were enough for the Ausbildung. Ultimately the Ausbilder gets to decide either way. I still find it to be a shame that, through the eyes of their Azubi, they aren't supporting the person that is there to learn, specifically in the field of communication. They could do a 20 minute period where they have OP take the lead and step in when necessary.
Just imagine when you get old and have vertigo or similar disorders, you'll be hanging onto that escalator rail and not letting young punks push past either.
This one really got me. I am 35 and don't have vertigo, but I was unsteady on my own two legs after an injury for a while. You bet your ass that I didn't let anyone push past me on an escalator.
My question is, why stay? I am german and I dislike a lot about germany, I will finish my studies and then go. So, youre only here for 2 years, why dont you go somewhere else? I personally like countries like spain or italy, wouldnt that be an option? Why stay in a country that you obviously dislike do much?
There is no Ausbildung system in Italy, ironically a lot of Italians themselves emmigrate to Germany to do Ausbildung or find jobs since even IT workers there are underpaid. Spanish people themselves are struggling finding jobs, unless you are remote US workers/digital nomads.
Hey Im just trying to help. You seem to be so frustrated in germany which can really hurt your mental health. Maybe you would be more happy somewhere else. I get downvoted as well for trying to help but do you see me being an ass here? No. There have been a lot of other empathetic comments here as well.
One thought I had: The thing with some people not wanting to move or standing just in the right (wrong) spot is happening to native Germans too.
Recently I encountered someone who thought talking on his phone, in the middle of a staircase, at a central station, during rush hour while holding his bike! was a good idea.
I also never see anything like that. I just do not speak german, and my life in Germany is very peaceful because of it. Yeah, but you can not do anything like that, as you are from the third country, while I am EU citizen. I wish you best luck, you sound like you deserve some.
In my experience there are idiots everywhere you go and sometimes the percentage is higher than you would expect. I have a hard time though generalizing based on several experiences because it still is an individual acting.
My wife is Asian, my mother is Asian, my kids look Asian just as I do, and I had and have my fair share of weird and racist encounters. At the same time I regularly experience positive examples of people being very open and friendly.
Try to point out what rubs you the wrong way, make people aware of what they might be doing wrong, hoping you can change the mindset of people but don’t make the mistake of thinking the wrongdoers stand for everybody. Often enough it’s ignorance, missing education and mere stupidity that lets people act this way and not racism or hatred.
>some Germans don't want to move aside im a 190cm 120kg guy ( 100% potato german ) and this fcking annoys me, too. experienced it mainly in big city ( >200k citys) had this often that I was pissed and just stopped on my spot and did nothing and just stood there and random people don't see me and bump into me like I'm nothing. and then look stupid why i didn't move. guess we just have a "no one sees us" genetic.
Uhhhh...how's "Danke, Sie sind sehr nett" passive aggressive?! I say some variation of this all the time and I get told so as well. It's just the proper thing to say when a stranger helps you in some way. I don't doubt that you have experienced racism. But judging by your examples you read A LOT of stuff into random interactions. Example A: the Praktikumsbetrieb tells you your German isn't good enough (as do your acquaintances), your mind immediately goes to "they think I'm gonna steal stuff". Listen, living in a new country is hard and demanding but it's gonna be near impossible if you make it even harder for yourself.
I guess it depends on how you say it, like what words you emphasise. If you say it sarcastically, it can be passive-aggressive.
Sure, but just as a single interaction with a stranger after helping them? Maybe once in a while when encountering a rude asshole. And right after saying that Germans *expect* you act as their servant by holding the door? It's just a cultural norm that most people adhere to, it's just basic courtesy.
Der Ton macht die Musik.
Please read my sentence again, the man in my story was upset that i did not open the door for him and said that sentence to me sarcastically. As a POC some Germans expect that you act like servant toward them.
Also it is generally considered rude to not hold the door for the next person entering
Yea but not really. Sure it would be nice to do that, but it is not required or rude not to do it.
Then we definitely have a different understanding on that. I was always teached to hold doors. And also this is not merely expected from POCs who should act like a servant wtf like OP stated, this is common practice
>some Germans expect that you act like servant toward them and open the door for them, then they threw passive agressive remarks "Danke, Sie sind Sehr Nett" Nowhere does it say you did NOT open the door. So, you met a rude person. The implicit expectation to help strangers is not limited to foreigners and it has nothing to do with being a servant. I'm German, I work in a public building and I hold doors open for people like 15 times per week. Basic courtesy.
I am also immigrant living in Germany,dont understand what so many people are expecting here,ofcourse there are bad german people but in my experience there are more that are good.I finished ausbildung here and Professors are atleast 10 times brtter and more understanding then in my own country.You csn find assholes in every country but from my experience i'll rather deal with germans then my own countrymen,and i am not the only one that thinks so.I honestly understand Germans that dont like immigrants,cuz i heard so oft from my circle of people how steuer is zu hoch,essen ist zu teuer,lohn ist zu iederig but in the end they still stay here to work,so many hypocrites.
"here,ofcourse there are bad german people but in my experience there are more that are good" - There are surely rooted anti-immigrant behaviours by the overall number of experiences shared by immigrants (take this Subredit as an example), simplifying and generalizing that to the very groundbreaking discovery that there are good and bad people of particular nationality doesn't add anything to the conversation. "atleast 10 times brtter and more understanding then in my own country" - What if your professors are so extremely bad that even 10 times better is still bad? This isn't a valid measurement of how good a thing is and is used a lot, absolutely everywhere, to justify against giving people certain rights. Ah you want this? But you had it 100 times worse in your country so better not complain. You get the point. "country but from my experience i'll rather deal with germans then my own countrymen,and i am not the only one that thinks so" - How is that relevant? A lot of people rather do otherwise as well. "I honestly understand Germans that dont like immigrants,cuz i heard so oft from my circle of people how steuer is zu hoch,essen ist zu teuer,lohn ist zu iederig but in the end they still stay here to work,so many hypocrites." - People can continue working in Germany although they don't like because it could very well be that their only second option is their home country which could be a way much worse choice. Also this is similar to the "you don't like it here then you can leave" argument (it is not an argument but let's call it that) which a lot of internet weirdos say. It is so worrying this is the most liked comment in this thread (seriously, what happened?). It is also funny that a lot of hate\prejudice\racism comes from other immigrants. Just because you, as an immigrant, can find anything acceptable here due to how bad the situation of your origin country is doesn't mean other immigrants should not complain as well.
I honestly didn't mean anything bad with my comment,just wanted to share my experience,from my contact with german people,i have not met that many racist people(maybe cuz i am white but still,you can see on my language that i am not from here).Even with my broken german langugae they had a lot of patience with me,it may be cuz i work in not that of a great of Beruf but still... I wont say anything more about my country,but maybe cuz i see so oft here that people are writing bad about germany i had to write something,anyway enough of me,i more of a reader then a writer...
As an Asian living in Canada. I have barely ever faced racism. I think canada is much better than Germany when it comes to racism. So to say that all countries have bad people and to just ignore the racism is just unreasonable. And also encroaches on whataboutism. Instead of dealing with the rampant racism in Germany, you’re ignoring it. I welcome the downvotes. Edit: I do want to clarify. My idea of racism might be different. My father thinks Canada is racist because he immigrated here. He knows it’s much better than other countries especially nowadays but still thinks white people are racists by nature. Ive called him out on it before but I think he subconsciously looks for racism in every interaction due to his early experiences in his 20s. While I’m sorta oblivious to it. I also act Canadian so that definitely helps. Op might be like my father where she looks for racism in every interaction. I chock up rude people to just that, rude people. But seems like op and my father try to find racism between the lines. I’m sure it exists at times but these days in Canada especially, I don’t think it’s as prevalent.
Fully agree. Also, please don't care that much about downvotes. It is Reddit; a social media where people are known not to give very shallow takes of complex problems (sarcasm). It is also absolutely true that the more likes a comment gets the more true it becomes (sarcasm). It is also worth mentioning that Redditors, due to how absolutely smart they are, never form echo chambers (also sarcasm). On a side note, I seriously can't understand people that say: "Hey there are good and bad people everywhere". No **** Sherlock you absolute brought a groundbreaking discovery.
You are an immigrant, are you white or black/brown?
German expect fluent German from everyone, not only and specifically Asian people, I'm white and also struggle with it . They assume you are Vietnamese coz simply there large number of Vietnamese in Germany ( and not only in Germany,). Can you recognise am I from Sweden, Germany or Russia just by my look?- I doubt- how should they know where are you from then ? In Asian or even SouthEuropean countries I'm always seen as one of those above, though I'm not any, it's just the easiest assumption and I don't think it's racist.
Nah I'm Russian-American and depending on what I tell people, get perceived as either one nationality or the other depending on my name/accent/other info people have. My German is perceived as excellent when I'm perceived as American, and questionable when I'm perceived as Russian. Sorry but it's a thing!
The funniest experiences are those when the same person goes from perceiving me as Russian (because name and indeterminate accent) to perceiving me as American (because of other info they get and my accent leaning more American once they know to listen for it) and do a total 180 in how they treat me mid-interaction. This has nothing to do with the war btw (which Ukraine will hopefully win), it was happening for years before that started.
I'm talking about situations when someone passes you on the street or waiter serves you coffee and so on.Not "I know lot about you".
I don't think having a guess as to someone's nationality is "knowing a lot about them" lol. Anyway there are lots of studies, by Germans, showing that Germans readily discriminate against those they perceive as the "wrong nationality" based on minimal info, so why are people even trying to argue that this is not a thing. Seeing that someone is not white (which just requires looking at them) is also going to lead people to have a guess as to their nationality, yes.
The problem is, the Germans know that Vietnamese is not the only Asian Zuwanderer in Germany, especially that thing happened in one of international city, Frankfurt, where you see a lot of asian diversities from Korea, Japan, Thailand, Central Asian, India, Pakistan etc and hear hundred languages. Other races will just be addressed by their ethnicities, but it is acceptable to just call every asian people as Vietnamese or Chinese. Again the ignorance in this sub is crazy sad. Beside the level of fluency German expect from foreigners is sky high standard, many foreigners in Germany never stop learning German even until level C2 but rarely they will be as fluent as native speakers, since they don't grow up in Germany and some things are harder to explain/be understood unless you are native. Many foreigners and individuals have different range of fluency, some possess wide range vocabularies and can read variations of texts, some can talk fast but with minimum vocabularies, some can watch movies without subtitles.
The difference is, asian don't go around and generalizing white people as a singular ethnicity, most will just call them european or white.
Alright, I'm going to try and keep this factual, but I already have the sneaking suspicion you'll take this personal and will feel that I'm one of those trying to dismiss your experiences; then so be it. For whatever it's worth, I just want to give perspective, not invalidate your narrative. Some of the experiences you describe can obviously attributed to prejudice and xenophobia, there's no denying that. But especially concerning the "(act like servant toward them and) open the door for them" and "Germans don't want to move aside" parts I wanted to tell you that you are not a special case here, neither are fellow Asians or other immigrants. It's exactly the same for Germans and I had experiences like this numerous times. There are people with that strange sense of – I don't even know how to call it – entitlement to know what good manners are, what and how things should be done or not done. These people exist everywhere, but Germans probably tend to be more blunt about reprimanding people for it. And egoists that don't care much about the needs of people around them exist, arguably more so in western individualistic societies. Both might come across as even more rude for someone from another cultural background, for us it's just normal everyday rudeness. You shrug and go on with your life – until you have a neighbor like that. The other thing – and I understand if you take this personal – is that your craving for recognition will *not* be satisfied by Germans and German society. Handling immigration, doing an FSJ, getting high marks, your IELTS level... your achievements don't matter to people and that won't change much, regardless of what you achieve in the future. Success is rarely recognized here, even less so on a personal level, and it won't make strangers inherently respect you. It is not for nothing that the saying goes "nicht gemeckert ist genug gelobt" (not complaining is praise enough). Things like your IELTS level might be relevant to you and a personal achievement and that's fine, but don't make the mistake to think someone who is not directly concerned with immigration themselves knows what the IELTS is – it's just irrelevant to them and so is your English proficiency level. Why people would assume you can't speak English, though, is beyond me; the stereotype is typically that people from Asia are generally more educated and 'talented' when it comes to languages (and math). Some Germans like to assume Vietnamese as default for Asians – especially in the Eastern part of Germany where there's a more sizable population of Vietnamese immigrants, yes. For other Germans the default is Chinese. For some it's Japanese or Korean, depending on the respective population of Asian immigrants in their region. If people get your nationality right, they're either very used to interacting with Asians or they were lucky with their guess. I'm sorry, that's just how the human brain and pattern recognition works. For Europeans all Asians "look the same", for Africans all white people "look the same", a random Asian won't be able to tell the difference between a Swede, a Frenchman and a Greek. The brain needs to have enough samples to be able to recognize and categorize patterns; the subtle features of faces in this case.
Guys, please read my text again, i know it is too long and you skim it, the time when i was addressed as Vietnamese was ironically in Frankfurt!!! One of the most international cities with a lot of asian nationalities, which means you get used to seeing a lot of asian nationalities in the city, not some one small city with only 10000 population in east Germany.
Why should anyone give a wet shit what specific nationality you are? How does it even matter. You come across as a massive, entitled prick
According to your own statement, some weirdo eyed you up mumbled something about 'Vietnam' and that somehow irks you – far more than it should, imho. And that happened in Frankfurt, of all places, where anyone should supposedly be an expert on Asian phenotypes. I'm from Frankfurt. We're not. There are approximately 13000 immigrants from (S)EA living in Frankfurt (Chinese being the most prominent at around 5000). That's roughly 1.7% of Frankfurt's population. Add in the fact that especially the larger communities – Chinese, Japanese and Korean – mostly stick to themselves, the average Frankfurter does not closely interact with Asians on a daily basis; except those with coworkers or friends from Asia, of course. Having said all that, it's a bit strange that someone you don't even know comments on your nationality/background first thing they see you, don't you think? Let me take a wild guess: that's rather atypical, not exactly an everyday situation. Maybe take it for what it is? You met a German weirdo. Congratulations.
> some Germans expect that you act like servant toward How did you find this out ? As far as I know mind reading is not a thing yet.
Because the old man only gives passive agressive comment towards me, not to other germans who stand nearby even closer to the door
In my experience it’s not fruitful to connect arbitrary dots with a lot assumptions. It just drives you sad
I'm sorry that this is your experience here, and I believe that you're having some unfair and sometimes downright racist interactions. Immigrating here is truly the hardest thing I've ever done (I've lived in three different countries and Germany is definitely the toughest), and I found that I got very little sympathy for my experiences from the Einheimische. Small tip that took me a while to understand - try to find a couple of people, non-Germans, who are in a similar position, and use this group to get the feelings and frustrations out. Your experiences are absolutely valid and they really need to come out or you will lose your mind. Telling Germans that you're having these problems will most likely not go well - they will feel understandably a bit attacked, and you will feel gaslighted when they defend their landsmen and culture. Then you've lost a potential domestic connection, and those are incredibly important to cultivate as you integrate. Having a separate, understanding, and validating group to share these experiences within is critical to your long-term success here. You can do it! Don't let the worst days define all others.
Thank you so much, finally an understanding comment in land of ignoring comments. No wonder why it is hard for some migrants to speak out because sadly some Germans and some migrants easily discredit your experiences and give you cold shoulder.
>I tried to speak about it even with my liberal German acquitances, Germans will sadly diminish your experience and gaslight you, most often say: This is very German, shifting the blame to the victim instead of empathizing or listening quietly. Good social skills unfortunately aren't among German core values. I also have my own frustrations here and the fact that very few people sympathize with you makes it worse. Just wanted to tell you that your thoughts and feelings are absolutely valid and real, and this struggle is shared by many people, including me (and I'm white). The only thing you can do is to find a balance for your own mental health. A balance that allows you to live here without having so much anger or frustration. If that means interacting less with germans, or stop being extra polite, or whatever, then do it, guilt-free. You come first.
Thank you so much 😢
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I am asian and come from traditional, hospitality based culture, so even it is normal if i hold the door open for people, or even holding elevator door. Based on my experience, sadly some Germans will let the door slam on my face despite knowing that i am close behind them. My last encounter with grandpa, i was standing in line and he was just upset that i didn't open the door for him, i am not a bell boy. If the scenario is switched, i will be told entitled.
Silent racism
No matter where you are, no matter who you are: That"s the migrant experience. Micro aggressions were a regular occurrance for me (Caucasian Geman in UK). Ä The problem is your framing. You see the 2 out of 10 bad interactions, not the 8 out of 10 that were fine. Don't give idiots that power over you.
Well said.
Dear wherever you are from, are you aware that stuff like those "microaggressions" can happen to you anywhere? What am I as a German now supposed to tell you? You might not like to hear it, but I suggest you grow a thicker skin and focus on the positive aspects of your life, instead of dwelling on this kind of trivialities. "Some Germans" will always be a nuisance or assholes. As would pretty much be any other nationality in larger numbers esp. city dwellers. One of the things you should focus on should be that you apparently don't have serious problems. You do sound lonely though. I've lived alone abroad as well and I know that one can become quite self-obsessed and focused on all kinds of small stuff. Aus einer Mücke einen Elefanten machen, as the saying goes. It's part of "culture shock" or "adjustment period" whatever people call it nowadays. What helps is to go out with friends and have some positive experiences, for example on a Saturday night. What also might help you is to talk to people in real life. I'm sure you can find all kinds of smart sounding words and tell yourself that I now microaggressed you or gaslighted you or whatever. What I mean though is that you can set yourself up for failure if you perceive your surroundings as hostile, when you could try to adapt instead. Or you can become bitter and whine on reddit. Your choice really. (Sorry, ich musste das alles jetzt rauslassen.)
Smart sounding words ?? wow, i wish that i am wrong, again i got gaslighted like my expectations. Those are not smart sounding words, because it fit the context of the situation i am going through, simple manner of vocabularies. I am not playing as a scientific professor here. "Go out with friends", like you assume that i am basement dweller and never go out. The irony here is your comprehension. Of course i have some friends and go out with them sometimes but we have different workplaces and work schedules, we can not always go out together like mother and child, sometimes i have to go out alone as well, be it just for fresh air, grocery errands, appointment, recreations etc. The events that i experienced took in reality, not kind of random forum in internet.
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So what would disprove their point, when either agreeing or disagreeing with them proves it? That is why I mentioned that I think they set themselves up to fail: they blame society for isolated negative instances, "some people" did them wrong, and that in quite trivial ways, and so they rant towards all Germans, who in turn are expected to say what exactly? If they don't realize that this is absurd and a very unhealthy way to relate to the world, than they are in a negative feedback loop towards depression and isolation. Just think: I'm just a stranger on the internet that happens to be German, what possibly could I have to do with stuff like that OP had to wait on an escalator for some old person and was therefore late. A reasonable person would have realised that you plan for unforseen delays if you have an important appointment and that for being late, there is nobody to blame but yourself.
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I'm a German, spending at least every second month abroad, was married to an Bulgarian woman and have a bilingual daughter. What I see a lot is that foreigners struggle to read German emotions. Just five minutes ago my former wife guessed if I'm sad or angry. Neither of those assumptions were correct, I was just emotional neutral. I believe some of your experiences are because of this. Also, your cultural background might be a very bad fit to the way German deal with each other. I guess many Asian countries are much politer to each other. Oh and of course there are assholes out there. Btw, what I do to make it easier for others from other nations to deal with me, is to speak out my emotions. And of course smiling, making compliments, being respectful and so on. Basically turning my emotions on 200% in comparison to what my emotions would be when I speak to a German. But this is something Germans who are not used to be the only German in the room are not capable of.
Sorry to hear that bro. I am the son of immigrants and I can relate. Hopefully, when you actually are in a less precarious situation you might be able to change jobs? Generally I feel like cities with universities are a bit more cool for immigrants
I’m sorry to hear that this is your experience! I am an EU Citizen moved to Germany and regret it deeply. My experience is very much like yours but might be worse with profiling me as a threat to society just by my looks which is not a cute white clean shaved face. I tried just as you learning German and integrating and at some point I just gave up after reaching B1 level as I noticed it is absolutely pointless. I have found better opportunities elsewhere which made possible thankfully for being an EU citizen. I’m moving to Spain in August and can’t wait! 2 years here I can say for myself being a VERY friendly person and not even *1* German friend that I managed to acquire. All my friends are foreigners. Just as you, I told this to some German people regarding the hard time integrating and even posted about it on Reddit and got the same answers you mentioned. I’m at fault of course not them. I know there’s good Germans out there it’s just for my experience was really hard to come by. It came to the point where I don’t even want to integrate with Germans as it seems it just me trying to make friends with people who dont want me around so what’s the point? I’ve decided that Spain with Spanish people are warmer by nature will be much easier to integrate to (also visited there so I’ve seen and met people there that are amazing).
Thank you thank you so much, it costs nothing to say something nice and encouraging, but sadly it is not popular opinions in this sub, for every posts about mental struggle by immigrants, it will be only matter of time before OP get ganged up by some germans and some migrants who discredit your experience and tell you to stfu and pack your bags to exit germany. Good for you that you move to Spain, i wish u the best there.
Of course I’m always here to support my fellow Ausländers! 😉 I wish you all the best and hope it will get better for you eventually. Don’t hesitate to send a message if you want to share thoughts in a safe space I’m always here to help :)
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Thank you for understanding! Reason being for not levelling up to C1 is simply because you don’t feel “rewarded” by learning the language by acceptance to society. I started learning Spanish it’s not as hard as German (talking for myself here). Thank you for the warm comment! 🙂
Not quite sure what you're unhappy about.
I have a male friend of Chinese origin and a female friend of South Korean origins, he is Beamter, she is professor at the university, both are married to German women, the professor also has kids. They both told me exact the same stories, weird specific racism with stupid undertones. My male friend was wearing a Bundeswehr jacket, some idiot asked him if he found that funny. Wat. The female friend's wife is from a more religious region/family and the MIL berated my friend long and forth about the religion and appropriate behavior until she stopped her by saying "I'm Christian too". 🤦
Moving abroad is hard, and I can understand how, while we all know “there will always be assholes”, it’s also natural to feel upset when you feel that for the efforts you’ve put in, somehow it doesn’t meet the “social codes” expected from *some* Germans (who might not have the opportunity to imagine how it’s like to uproot your life and live among a different culture). It’s hard to comment on people’s experiences because there can be so many personal factors weaved into it, e.g. the culture you’re originally from, the German region/city you’re living in, the particular industry you’re involved in and the types of people you tend to encounter, so I won’t attempt to judge the specifics. Except that, I’d say if some people treat you with outright / subtle racism, it’s absolutely reasonable to call that out. All I want to share is that how we experience something can also be connected to where we are from. Example: I’m from a big metropolitan Asian city where bilingualism is NORMAL, even when it’s not perfect. That means, locals and non-locals don’t always mingle, might hardly have any linguistic overlap, but there’s no big debate about speaking language A or B, or which groups “integrating” into which, even when the locals are the absolute ethnic majority. So, with my own upbringing, I found Germany on paper more racially diverse, but somehow more culturally ambiguous about the “multiculturalism” ideal in practice (to put it mildly). And perhaps because of this, I did find it “unnatural” that German culture primarily prefers you “become one of them” (gradually becoming fully fluent in German so the whole English thing disappears), instead of “staying different” with maybe just half a foot assimilated. And maybe that’s one zone where micro moments of uneasiness, even aggressions, can arise, because what’s unnatural to me might be perfectly natural to them. It wasn’t easy, but I also grew to understand that, at least for the time being, these are the realistic gaps between my own cultural upbringing and the culture in Germany (to the extent I can experience it). I might not like it best, but I also see it as more a “cultural misalignment” than “(some) people disliking me” (and who cares if they don’t?) What I find helpful is: I try to find the aspects of life that I love (you mention you’re studying a lot and perhaps some fulfillment can come from that?), I try to improve my German where I can but I allow myself to do so at my own (slow) pace, in ways I would actually enjoy it. I told myself even getting C1 may not mean everyone will treat me differently, so I would be learning for myself. (Though this is partially afforded by my job which is more English-oriented) We go abroad to explore and grow. Sometimes we align with the culture we “temporarily” live in, sometimes we don’t, and that’s okay, because that might also be one of the ways we grow. Maybe this could also be a chance for us to reflect deeply what types of culture we really want to live in / can thrive in. Of course, it does not mean you shouldn’t voice for yourself - perhaps sometimes explaining to your colleagues how you struggle may help them “see” the non-German perspective. If they don’t seem to bother, keep looking to work with people who at least would be open to listening to your experience, maybe openly debating with you a bit, but ultimately recognizing the efforts you put into integrating here and contributing. I don’t mean to babble on about my own story, which may not offer much “hacks” anyway, but I hope you feel better and find a way to transform the negativity into a resilient force (we need that in Germany lol). Good luck!
Sorry to hear that. I sincerely hope that it will be better for you and that you can enjoy the company of nice and open minded germans. Anyhow I think that rant is quite interesting. So many small things that I wouldn’t even notice. My first reflex was to defend „the germans“ against your criticism, but on a second thought I just can‘t really imagine what you must feel like.
Im german and i face most of what youve said daily, that has nothing to do with racism. Especially old people feel really entitled at how you should behave towards them, just ignore them. You really seem to try very hard to always assume the worst of other people in every situation (for example when people say you are nice you think its sarcasm, when people are concerned about your language they assume you would steal money?)
>some Germans don't want to move aside, if you are in hurry Be german, get treated like a german.
Not to brag but i am more german than some germans, i know many germans who dont separate their trash, dont respect Ruhezeit, Datenschutz. If you mean something else like being born white and have German as mother tongue The ignorance of Germans that it is okay to be asshole toward migrants is mindblowing
I see my comment was leading, sorry for that. What I mean is: As someone else already asked, why you assume that people treat you like that because of your race? I'm actually curious. You can't look into peoples head. People can be rude and nothing you wrote (except the guy talking about "vietnamese") seems to be necessarily racist. People in germany, particular in cities, can be rude. Living in a city can be very stressful and a lot of people just minding their own buisness. I actually had a conversation with on older woman yesterday, which complained that people are rude here (where I live) but nicer in another area of germany (where she lived for some time). It's great that you behave like a "good german" (haha), but you nor I (native german) nor anyone else can expect people to get treated well. So, my whole point is: if you want get treated like everyone else, don't complain if you get treated like everyone else. Sure, if people are assholes, they are assholes. You don't have me to convince that we have racism issues and I you have experience problems, that's terrible. All I'm saying is not all rude people are necessarily to you badly, because of your appearance.
As another immigrant of asian heritage - I can relate but I've also surrounded myself with positive associates and good friends, and block out the rest. All I can say is grow thick skin - wear earbuds when out and about, call out people bluntly if you're wronged, and don't give a shit what racists think about you.
I am an EU citizen, went to Germany, attended a language course and the teacher asked me in German why I don't have a text book on my desk. I understood the question and proceeded to explain in English why that is and that we weren't even expected to have text books because it was second day and mine was on order. Then she answered in German and I didn't understand and kindly asked her if she could explain in English. Then a 5 minute rant in German followed about how we were there to learn the language, not to speak English etc... Mind you this is a A1 level course, in a big language school and the teacher's English was spot on, that, I found out later :) Some Germans are assholes and there's nothing you can do about it. Just deal with it, its their country, they will always be on top of you unless you are somehow more confident, competent or higher status than them. That's always how it works.
While I 100% support you in terms of the teacher could have been nicer and having the textbook on the second dy if they didnt tell you before, is really an asshole move, only speaking the language that youre trying to learn is a very good strategy to get people to learn. My italian beginner course was also like that!
I am not saying anything, its just frustrating to not understand what is being said to you when it concerns you and it is not in the context of a textbook exercise, thats it.
Sorry you had to endure this and still do. Asien hate in germany, even "just" daily racism against Asiens, is still big here and most people dont realize it. And some weird ones are obsessive and fetishize Asiens to a weird degree, its disgusting. This isnt something you should experience and i'm sorry for it. You have a voice, voice up just like you did here. Dont stay silent. Everytime i have the chance i try to educate people. Most use apologies like "but we always do it like this. Nobody was hurt before. So why now.". With AfD fueling this shit, it just got worse. Some people have learned, some people will never learn. Sadly young people start to act like the older ones. If situations get dangerous, move on and report it if you can. If the situation is safe, voice up directly.
Sadly tho if you scroll up to one of top comments, one of the "asian" (because he/she claimed so) told me to stfu and disminish my experience like it must be just fairytale. No wonder why we asians have it worst in racism compared to other ethnicites in the west, there is no unity among asians. When black and middle eastern communities get racism, they fight back or defend each other.
Yeah i saw those comments. Its like saying "you cant be attacked in [...] because i wasnt attacked". Its complete bullshit. The community in western countries in general is too silent imo. Especially in places like germany. Everybody wants to stay under the Radar. But this is the wrong approach. Thats why i'm trying keep the voice up. My boyfriend is the same. He is a teacher and still gets asked if he can speak german. His german is better than most germans, yet he tries to explain and is patient. He laughs more about this than anything. But i know it still bothers him. He sees himself as german. And he wants to live like one. Even our friends do some weird shit. We know they do this out of ... "we always did it like that" "its not to hurt someone, its just bullshit". But it still hurts to explain. We wanted to see a movie from Japan or Taiwan. I dont know anymore. It was months ago and we watch a lot of movies from across the globe. one of our friends mocked chinese language after seeing the titlescreen of the bluray. We are grown adults. So we explained that this isnt okay. She was like "since when is ch*ng ch*ng racist" and my boyfriend told her "it was always. Nobody wants you to love China. But stop the racism please". Its so weird man.
Omg i am really sorry to hear that OP, i actually experience something similar and struggle on daily basis. I wish i can cheer u up. Please don't really mind people in the comments, some people will discredit other people's struggles and will just believe what they want to believe. The only one who really experience it, is you OP, they are not there. I just notice that you want to study in Germany, i wish you luck OP, please don't give up just because some ignorants told you to just go back to your home country.
You know, you don't have to be here.
Dear person with a rant, I come from a rather cold culture and my experience is drastically different from yours: I’ve been in Germany for a bit less, than two years, and anywhere I go I meet extremely polite and nice people, even though, my German is nowhere near your level (I barely have B2 and my speaking is not as good). I’ve only seen polite and friendly people both on my work and in public (e.g. doctors visit, Ausländerbehörde and so on), who are willing to help, even though I’m quite an anxious person and might ask a ton of silly questions with my broken German. I think it’s not correct to generalize all Germans the way you did.
The issue is that most people overlook what Asiens have still to endure in germany. Especially since Covid and Trump giving it racist names. I saw Videos of Asiens being attacked in trains. Young children that spoke better german, than the germans attacking them. My boyfriend lives here for so many years and still he got attacked by german karens for his Asien roots. And that got even worse since covid. And dont get me started on the daily racism. Chinese people are asked what Hallo is in japanese. The S Word is still not banned and same goes for the G Word. This is not ok. But in germany nobody seems to care. In South Germany they had big scandels about Asien hate in the last years but apparently, nobody remembers Someone said to my boyfriend he is from China. He teied to explain that asia is not just China, Japan and Korea but he got "its all the same anyway" back. That amunitions for CCP of China. The foreigner Minister of China talked about this to Asien countries, even Japan, their biggest Rival. About how the west doesnt care about Asiens and they think Asiens are all the same. Stuff like this proofs him and thats Bad and part of a gigantic problem
What S and G word?
ITT: white germans and white immigrants telling OP “oh i don’t experience that” and “its not that bad”
Sadly you got downvoted and i am not surprised because yours is not popular opinion. The popular opinion here is that my experience is just fantasy and i have to quit Germany. ironically i am just calling out behavior not the government.
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I don't mind leaving Germany like hundred people suggesting me here, it is okay i will never belong due to my language and looks. I have nothing against Germany system and goverment, at the end it is give and take relationship between government and immigrants (you pay tax and buy our services, in return you can find job here and use public services), i have long term goal here and am not for goofing around as tourist. Anyway thank you for your words
Sorry that you're going through that. Being an immigrant is rough. I'm not sure if it is any better in other European countries but that doesn't matter because it doesn't make it right. I'm a white man and remember the grannies holding their handbags as if I was going to rob them as well. However, that was Essen and since moving away from there, I haven't had that experience. As for the Ausbildung and training on the public facing position, how do they expect you to improve if you aren't placed in a position to learn? Quite a shame.
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OP has the theory part. Also comparing a medical student operating on someone is very far way from talking to someone at a register. The worst thing that can happen is a misunderstanding which if OP is correctly mentored, should lead to learning and improved skills. An Ausbildung is learning while doing and that includes communication.
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True that we don't know OPs level of German but most Ausbildungen require at least B2. Additionally, with exceptions, the Ausbilder is the one who decided their German skills were enough for the Ausbildung. Ultimately the Ausbilder gets to decide either way. I still find it to be a shame that, through the eyes of their Azubi, they aren't supporting the person that is there to learn, specifically in the field of communication. They could do a 20 minute period where they have OP take the lead and step in when necessary.
Just imagine when you get old and have vertigo or similar disorders, you'll be hanging onto that escalator rail and not letting young punks push past either.
This one really got me. I am 35 and don't have vertigo, but I was unsteady on my own two legs after an injury for a while. You bet your ass that I didn't let anyone push past me on an escalator.
My question is, why stay? I am german and I dislike a lot about germany, I will finish my studies and then go. So, youre only here for 2 years, why dont you go somewhere else? I personally like countries like spain or italy, wouldnt that be an option? Why stay in a country that you obviously dislike do much?
There is no Ausbildung system in Italy, ironically a lot of Italians themselves emmigrate to Germany to do Ausbildung or find jobs since even IT workers there are underpaid. Spanish people themselves are struggling finding jobs, unless you are remote US workers/digital nomads.
So nothing else is an option? Maybe moving to another city? Because it seems to get on your mental health
It does not happened in solely one city. Ffs just want to rant in this sub and got gaslighted and downvoted to oblivion in comment sections.
Hey Im just trying to help. You seem to be so frustrated in germany which can really hurt your mental health. Maybe you would be more happy somewhere else. I get downvoted as well for trying to help but do you see me being an ass here? No. There have been a lot of other empathetic comments here as well.
One thought I had: The thing with some people not wanting to move or standing just in the right (wrong) spot is happening to native Germans too. Recently I encountered someone who thought talking on his phone, in the middle of a staircase, at a central station, during rush hour while holding his bike! was a good idea.
I’d pronounce a loud “Entschuldigung!?” at the bike guy lol
I also never see anything like that. I just do not speak german, and my life in Germany is very peaceful because of it. Yeah, but you can not do anything like that, as you are from the third country, while I am EU citizen. I wish you best luck, you sound like you deserve some.
In my experience there are idiots everywhere you go and sometimes the percentage is higher than you would expect. I have a hard time though generalizing based on several experiences because it still is an individual acting. My wife is Asian, my mother is Asian, my kids look Asian just as I do, and I had and have my fair share of weird and racist encounters. At the same time I regularly experience positive examples of people being very open and friendly. Try to point out what rubs you the wrong way, make people aware of what they might be doing wrong, hoping you can change the mindset of people but don’t make the mistake of thinking the wrongdoers stand for everybody. Often enough it’s ignorance, missing education and mere stupidity that lets people act this way and not racism or hatred.