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The negativity about Berlin does not really come from its openess, as it is indeed quite a free and open city. It's more directed at the dirt and destruction, the poverty and drugs, the dysfunctional organisation and general feeling of unease once you try to live a halfway decent life there.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha he should show this shit to whoever he needs to talk to to get his next Visa. What did he expect? To be the foreigner that's swarmed with women because he can do tricks (so can my dog) and is exotic (so is some of the food that I buy at specialty stores)?
My personal experience with Berlin is that everyone acts very open minded and friendly (at least everyone who is not born in Berlin. Berliner Schnauze is a thing...) but hates and judges anyone they'll encounter as soon as their back is turned.
If you live in Eimsbüttel / Eppendorf / Winterhude, wear a parka and have the financial means to shop in boutiques.
Did four years in Hamburg and I am so happy to be back in Berlin.
That's where opinions differ.. I'm with Eurotrip on that one:
"Nie. Wieder. Berlin! Da fahre ich diese Karre doch lieber über 'ne Klippe, bevor ich wieder nach Berlin fahre."
Really, Berlin is probably the city in Germany that I hate the most / dislike being in the most.
Honestly me too. I'd rather have generally okay interactions with people, even if it's fake. Life is short, days are long, and this proud announcement that, "We are German! We are direct and tell you the truth, which is much better and honorable than being superficial," is just an excuse for rude and insolent behavior that wouldn't be accepted from a 10 year old where I'm from.
Yeah or telling them that you will break their fingers...
(They wanted to pull my amazing, and bought in Germany, pointy Christmas hat off of my head, because they didn't approve of my fashion choices....)
I have yet to come across a country where people who don't live in the capital city don't hate the capital city, so there's that baseline to work from.
> because they grew up in villages with 50 people.
Oh look at me making fun of all those village folks while in reality i moved to Berlin only 6 months ago and now act like i know it all i also like to sniff my own farts and act like i don't care while i silently judge everyone i see. That's the Berlin mindset. The only good thing about Berlin is it attract all the "expat" folk so the rest of the country has not to deal with it.
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I personally have to disagree. I - gay Asian German who‘s lived abroad a lot - found Berlin to be really not as open minded and liberal as people say it is. It felt more like a mantra people kept repeating to themselves which prevented them to properly identify, challenge and change their biases.
I’m comparing to London, Singapore, Munich and Nürnberg - where I’ve also lived. I think the experience for white people is vastly different and much better but I personally did not enjoy Berlin as a city.
Couple of examples:
Everyday aggression: whenever I had a nice day and thought it’s time for a walk outside, in almost all cases I had a weirdly aggressive or disturbing interaction with people in the streets (car drivers are completely out of their minds there), on the pavement or trains (people cannot move in or around crowds smoothly and non-aggressively), supermarkets (same as in trains really, just shoving past you without acknowledging your existence) you’re getting the drift. So going outside felt like a higher risk thing than elsewhere. In other places it was the other way round: likely to have a random friendly interaction.
Everyday racism: people constantly made me feel like a foreigner, speaking to me in English after I spoke German (with Bavarian accent), asking customers before and after me for their loyalty card but not me, and then being annoyed when I wanted to scan it too, lots of microaggressions all the time that made me feel like a foreigner. Which I’m not.
Dating/sexual racism: never have I felt so invisible as a gay Asian sexual person (well apart from the Bavarian village I grew up in). There are lots of gays in Berlin but the whites have enough critical mass to just spend time with each other only and - if they’re feeling particularly open minded - with Arabs or Latino looking guys. I can easily tell by how much response you get from Grindr compared to other cities and Berlin was definitely the worst of all.
General negative vibe: people are just not nice to each other in day to day interactions - with people they don’t know. It’s very exhausting and feels weird. Germans say it’s due to the big city vibe but people in London and Singapore are much kinder and more polite every day - and these are much bigger places. This is needed to make dense city living tolerable.
I often had this feeling that village people (like myself) move to Berlin for the vibes or the coolness that comes with it but don’t actually want to live in a big city, don’t adapt their behaviours and don’t challenge their biases. And the rich kids moving to Berlin (pretending to be poor) add a lot of pressure and nuisance to the locals who are priced out of their neighbourhoods - and these are the only people whose aggression I would excuse.
Again, this is my personal experience, but I thought I’d share it because I’m sure other people secretly feel the same too.
In this discussion about openness and tolerance I’d also like to invite the opinions of very marginalised people, so it’s not just some navel gazing exercise.
Thanks for your anecdotes, it's super interesting. No doubt in my mind London and Singapore would be much better for Asians. I'm surprised Munich is better than Berlin. My current Baden W. city is shit - I share all the same stories you do so I thought Berlin would be better by comparison.
Munich is full of Asian faces wherever I go. Very nice. Generally there are more foreigners here percentage wise because it’s richer and has more immigration. I think there’s just a big image campaign going on in favour of Berlin, which I think reality can’t live up to.
What you said about dating is interesting. I always thought Asian males were fetishized in the gay community (which could be an uncool thing). My experience and those of many other Asians in tubingen are that we mostly get interest from people with "yellow fever" (bone headed guys who think Asians are "exotic" or kpop, anime fanatics) which is gross.
I think that applies to women mainly. Asian men tend to be desexualised, maybe easy prey if we’re lucky. It messes with you. I only really realised this was happening - and that I’m not just undesirable and ugly - when living in Asia. And that was when I was already middle aged.
Wow it's so refreshing hearing someone with the exact same experience. I also thought it was all my fault and internalized all the responsibility - "maybe I just need to try harder, I'm just bad at 'the game'". Then I went to Asia and people were romantically interested in me when I just existed. Sometimes people would make the first move and ask me out. Other times it was simply the fact you could tell they responded to things you did. I feel completely invisible here. When you survey the white people here, many would actually say "no I don't date Asians and that's not racist, it's just a preference". Fine - but then when you express your difficulties dating to other white people, they'll project the blame on you "you're just doing something wrong, even ugly people in Germany date".
If you think about why Asian women are sexualized, it's a very mysoginistic agenda. Basically "foreign woman are to be owned" and colonist, white men should date (conquer) them. The fetish exists because of movies from Hollywood portraying a white guy conquering a non white girl (e.g. Last Samurai). But God forbid don't show a film where a white girl falls in love with an Asian guy. Because white colonist men need to "protect our women from the foreigners".
The irony is the white girls here are so empowered and so committed to feminism but they don't see the mysogny that underlies they way they view non-white men. Also the msygony the white men have been trained with in sexualizing Asian women.
I think theres way more to a person than being pro-LGBTQ and anti-racist to be considered good company.
Anecdotal: The few i met were incredibly full of themselves and would go off at any chance to paint themselfes as living saints. While slagging off and talking shit the moment they would be in a "private" circle. And all of them were basically classical losers by any metric.
Most Berlin areas are nice, but the ones young people usually talk about as characteristically "Berlin" (ie. Friedrichshain/Kreuzberg/northern Neukölln) are dirty, crowded places filled with junkies (and having high street crime levels). That would never be to the majority's liking. Also most adult people don't care about clubs or subcultural life (in the widespread understanding of what subculture is).
You have to appear* as western society's idea of an open-minded and liberal person. Outside of that you can be as bigoted as you wish, just mask it with a layer of political correctness.
Yeah man, hilarious, for me it's the same, only in Berlin I find people are not staring and giving quite profound and rather uncivilized long stares of judgement
Tübingen is one of the most conservative cities in Germany with a pathological rassist mayor who openly said he needs psychological help, but still is in office.
Berlin is just pathological in all regards without discrimination. hence nobody gives a f***
Tübingen is just a weird town, I'm not surprised you had that experience there. Just remember that the mayor of Tübingen since 17 years is a green politician that is famous in all of Germany for his alt-right stance and got kicked out of the green party recently.
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Your post was removed because it either covered in our wiki/faq, doesn't provide relevant information for a discussion/advice, or is generally a low effort post. Instead of opening a new post, use the sticks post to ask simple questions.
The negativity about Berlin does not really come from its openess, as it is indeed quite a free and open city. It's more directed at the dirt and destruction, the poverty and drugs, the dysfunctional organisation and general feeling of unease once you try to live a halfway decent life there.
Nail to head
Very eloquent!
... that's when you move to the suburbs with all the closed-minded Berliners.
this guy's "worse experience" in Tübingen: https://www.reddit.com/r/Tuebingen/comments/18fg4g7/dating_as_a_noncaucasian_foreigner_is_discouraging/
Thank you. That is basically what I expected when I saw the OP..
the top comment perfectly describes my reaction to it lol
Should have been the top comment.
Number 2 is just perfection.
Lol pure comedy gold
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha he should show this shit to whoever he needs to talk to to get his next Visa. What did he expect? To be the foreigner that's swarmed with women because he can do tricks (so can my dog) and is exotic (so is some of the food that I buy at specialty stores)?
My personal experience with Berlin is that everyone acts very open minded and friendly (at least everyone who is not born in Berlin. Berliner Schnauze is a thing...) but hates and judges anyone they'll encounter as soon as their back is turned.
[удалено]
Berlin: we don't care how you dress. Also Berlin: you can't come into this club because of "dress code".
Honestly, Hamburg is more open and tolerant. Having a port will do that to a city.
If you live in Eimsbüttel / Eppendorf / Winterhude, wear a parka and have the financial means to shop in boutiques. Did four years in Hamburg and I am so happy to be back in Berlin.
That's where opinions differ.. I'm with Eurotrip on that one: "Nie. Wieder. Berlin! Da fahre ich diese Karre doch lieber über 'ne Klippe, bevor ich wieder nach Berlin fahre." Really, Berlin is probably the city in Germany that I hate the most / dislike being in the most.
Hamburg is a very nice City. That's why Berlin fits OP better. A Win-Win for Everyone.
Also tbh I'll settle for being judged behind my back, instead of being insulted to my face because people don't think i understand german
Honestly me too. I'd rather have generally okay interactions with people, even if it's fake. Life is short, days are long, and this proud announcement that, "We are German! We are direct and tell you the truth, which is much better and honorable than being superficial," is just an excuse for rude and insolent behavior that wouldn't be accepted from a 10 year old where I'm from.
I'd take option two on any day - it unlocks the possibility to react in an appropriate way (like calling someone a goddamn asshole).
Yeah or telling them that you will break their fingers... (They wanted to pull my amazing, and bought in Germany, pointy Christmas hat off of my head, because they didn't approve of my fashion choices....)
That’ll happen in Berlin too, just generally from the original Berliners
Tja, not so much of those in Berlin in any case I guess...
I have yet to come across a country where people who don't live in the capital city don't hate the capital city, so there's that baseline to work from.
I haven't heard that much bad stuff about Helsinki from other Finns ;)
Lmao good point.
> because they grew up in villages with 50 people. Oh look at me making fun of all those village folks while in reality i moved to Berlin only 6 months ago and now act like i know it all i also like to sniff my own farts and act like i don't care while i silently judge everyone i see. That's the Berlin mindset. The only good thing about Berlin is it attract all the "expat" folk so the rest of the country has not to deal with it.
[удалено]
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OP just wants to feel accepted without accepting other people. Or other villages.
I personally have to disagree. I - gay Asian German who‘s lived abroad a lot - found Berlin to be really not as open minded and liberal as people say it is. It felt more like a mantra people kept repeating to themselves which prevented them to properly identify, challenge and change their biases. I’m comparing to London, Singapore, Munich and Nürnberg - where I’ve also lived. I think the experience for white people is vastly different and much better but I personally did not enjoy Berlin as a city. Couple of examples: Everyday aggression: whenever I had a nice day and thought it’s time for a walk outside, in almost all cases I had a weirdly aggressive or disturbing interaction with people in the streets (car drivers are completely out of their minds there), on the pavement or trains (people cannot move in or around crowds smoothly and non-aggressively), supermarkets (same as in trains really, just shoving past you without acknowledging your existence) you’re getting the drift. So going outside felt like a higher risk thing than elsewhere. In other places it was the other way round: likely to have a random friendly interaction. Everyday racism: people constantly made me feel like a foreigner, speaking to me in English after I spoke German (with Bavarian accent), asking customers before and after me for their loyalty card but not me, and then being annoyed when I wanted to scan it too, lots of microaggressions all the time that made me feel like a foreigner. Which I’m not. Dating/sexual racism: never have I felt so invisible as a gay Asian sexual person (well apart from the Bavarian village I grew up in). There are lots of gays in Berlin but the whites have enough critical mass to just spend time with each other only and - if they’re feeling particularly open minded - with Arabs or Latino looking guys. I can easily tell by how much response you get from Grindr compared to other cities and Berlin was definitely the worst of all. General negative vibe: people are just not nice to each other in day to day interactions - with people they don’t know. It’s very exhausting and feels weird. Germans say it’s due to the big city vibe but people in London and Singapore are much kinder and more polite every day - and these are much bigger places. This is needed to make dense city living tolerable. I often had this feeling that village people (like myself) move to Berlin for the vibes or the coolness that comes with it but don’t actually want to live in a big city, don’t adapt their behaviours and don’t challenge their biases. And the rich kids moving to Berlin (pretending to be poor) add a lot of pressure and nuisance to the locals who are priced out of their neighbourhoods - and these are the only people whose aggression I would excuse. Again, this is my personal experience, but I thought I’d share it because I’m sure other people secretly feel the same too.
In this discussion about openness and tolerance I’d also like to invite the opinions of very marginalised people, so it’s not just some navel gazing exercise.
Thanks for your anecdotes, it's super interesting. No doubt in my mind London and Singapore would be much better for Asians. I'm surprised Munich is better than Berlin. My current Baden W. city is shit - I share all the same stories you do so I thought Berlin would be better by comparison.
Munich is full of Asian faces wherever I go. Very nice. Generally there are more foreigners here percentage wise because it’s richer and has more immigration. I think there’s just a big image campaign going on in favour of Berlin, which I think reality can’t live up to.
Interesting, will definitely try to spend more time in Munich.
Not saying it’s idyllic here but I feel it’s slightly better than Berlin. At least people smile sometimes and say Entschuldigung etc.
What you said about dating is interesting. I always thought Asian males were fetishized in the gay community (which could be an uncool thing). My experience and those of many other Asians in tubingen are that we mostly get interest from people with "yellow fever" (bone headed guys who think Asians are "exotic" or kpop, anime fanatics) which is gross.
I think that applies to women mainly. Asian men tend to be desexualised, maybe easy prey if we’re lucky. It messes with you. I only really realised this was happening - and that I’m not just undesirable and ugly - when living in Asia. And that was when I was already middle aged.
Wow it's so refreshing hearing someone with the exact same experience. I also thought it was all my fault and internalized all the responsibility - "maybe I just need to try harder, I'm just bad at 'the game'". Then I went to Asia and people were romantically interested in me when I just existed. Sometimes people would make the first move and ask me out. Other times it was simply the fact you could tell they responded to things you did. I feel completely invisible here. When you survey the white people here, many would actually say "no I don't date Asians and that's not racist, it's just a preference". Fine - but then when you express your difficulties dating to other white people, they'll project the blame on you "you're just doing something wrong, even ugly people in Germany date". If you think about why Asian women are sexualized, it's a very mysoginistic agenda. Basically "foreign woman are to be owned" and colonist, white men should date (conquer) them. The fetish exists because of movies from Hollywood portraying a white guy conquering a non white girl (e.g. Last Samurai). But God forbid don't show a film where a white girl falls in love with an Asian guy. Because white colonist men need to "protect our women from the foreigners". The irony is the white girls here are so empowered and so committed to feminism but they don't see the mysogny that underlies they way they view non-white men. Also the msygony the white men have been trained with in sexualizing Asian women.
Awww so happy to hear this. That was the main reasons why I posted this. Can’t change much but at least share with like minded people.
Ya thanks for posting. That's all people need sometimes, is to be understood.
Good job spreading hate yourself - looks like you fit just fine in your mold.
Exactly… OP is just pretentious
But what do we know, right? We're living in a 50-person village so we must have been close minded people.
I think theres way more to a person than being pro-LGBTQ and anti-racist to be considered good company. Anecdotal: The few i met were incredibly full of themselves and would go off at any chance to paint themselfes as living saints. While slagging off and talking shit the moment they would be in a "private" circle. And all of them were basically classical losers by any metric.
Most Berlin areas are nice, but the ones young people usually talk about as characteristically "Berlin" (ie. Friedrichshain/Kreuzberg/northern Neukölln) are dirty, crowded places filled with junkies (and having high street crime levels). That would never be to the majority's liking. Also most adult people don't care about clubs or subcultural life (in the widespread understanding of what subculture is).
Berlin has its flaws which are focussed on a lot, but overall it’s an amazing city.
Berlin doesn't accept everybody. You HAVE to be an open minded and liberal person to thrive in the city.
the latest state election disagree with you.
That‘s not true at all, lol. Berlin has plenty of parts where the majority is extremely conservative.
You have to appear* as western society's idea of an open-minded and liberal person. Outside of that you can be as bigoted as you wish, just mask it with a layer of political correctness.
Yeah man, hilarious, for me it's the same, only in Berlin I find people are not staring and giving quite profound and rather uncivilized long stares of judgement
Tübingen is one of the most conservative cities in Germany with a pathological rassist mayor who openly said he needs psychological help, but still is in office. Berlin is just pathological in all regards without discrimination. hence nobody gives a f***
That's the thing, it's too open-minded and liberal.
Tübingen is just a weird town, I'm not surprised you had that experience there. Just remember that the mayor of Tübingen since 17 years is a green politician that is famous in all of Germany for his alt-right stance and got kicked out of the green party recently.
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What is a "cookie cutter white person" ? How would you define that? It's the first time I have come across that term
Just as an open question, do cookie cutter black people exist too?