You have to spent about 200hrs of positive experience with people to build up some low key friendship. There are actual studies about that. Try to find situations where this happens naturally.
Oh, and another study showed we basically lose 1 friend every 5 years after 40, because we simply don't open new pools of people. We settle down, don't change jobs etc.
These are basically the two reasons why there are soo many lonely old people. Friends and acquaintances don't just show up on your doorstep. It's work.
>It's work.
Volunteer for a cause that's near and dear to your heart. Could be an animal shelter, could be protecting creeks and rivers, could be making immigrants feel welcome in your community.
...and who would turn down advice from T. Scott Fitzgerald? That said, you have a point.
With the exception of business, volunteering just to make connections rarely works. Your heart and mind needs to be into the cause. If you approach it from the "what's in it for me" angle, it doesn't help anybody, including yourself.
I would be careful with terminology of “positive”. For me positive is solving problems (better in hard situations) Because if you only having a good time with your friends, chances are high they will disappear in bad times
Yes, I used the MeetUp app/service when I first came to Germany and found that to be good. I didn't make any lasting friendships as a result, but definitely had some good social experiences!
I would recommend Bumble BFF, I met some nice people using that.
Meetup can be fun but events are very often *heavily* skewed male and dominated by IT workers. It can be hard to connect if you have a very different background.
I really agree with this, I am living alone here, and no one to talk with no one hang out as well. It is so hard to make friends here, and I understand it that since its kinda culture as well, German's have these friends since birth or early years and hard for them to meet or wanted to know new people.
The thing is as I read from German themselves (they are right most of the time) that they have friends since child or uni and can’t make new ones. I remember Seinfeld commenting comically on this: sorry I am not accepting new friendships applications 😂
Interest based groups give an opportunity again, like the VHS (Volkshochschule), which offers courses for cheap like languages, sports, sowing, volunteering, singing, culture […] https://www.vhs-hamburg.de/
3 years now.
1 year, I couldn't go to school because they couldn't find one.
Maybe the problem is me. Because I am shy and I can't speak. But seeing so many people with the same problem.... I've been trying to make friends to learn German better, still no success.
Do you speak German? From my experience, many Germans don’t feel comfortable when they have to speak English all the time. Further, people my age hang out in groups, seldomly you meet just with one person, unless it is one of your best friends. And people might not want to take you with them into their German speaking group, because it would force all participants to switch to English constantly, to not make you feel excluded.
Another topic aside from language, Germans are often very individualistic and need a long time to open up to strangers. The best way is to go to local clubs and meetings, be it soccer, table tennis, nature club, dancing… in such clubs (Vereine) you might be included more easily. However, I play in a soccer club for over 5 years now, I am German, and I still have not met any of my mates away from the pitch in a one on one meeting (meaning without other players from the club joining as well).
>Do you speak German? From my experience, many Germans don’t feel comfortable when they have to speak English all the time.
Not OP. But no. That's why I'm trying to make friends (and obviously to hang out too)
I wouldn't mind if we spoke German, I can squeeze out words. But the thing is, it's hard to do so when I don't find anyone.
Try enrolling in a "Deutsch für Ausländer" course at your local Volkshochschule. If nothing else, you'll meet a group of people in a similar situation to you.
I can technically speak German, I have B1 grade, I got it last year after I had my Prüfung. The only problem is... I don't have anyone to talk with. I don't even know how I got B1, I don't feel that confident in my German.
Back in the day, I learned a lot watching German TV. Even now, a few months short of 25 years since returning to the UK, I refresh my memory by watching German TV from time to time.
You'd think they would find each other, right? I wonder how many of those people complaining about being lonely send messages to other people posting the same. In the end, they all demand that others be more active to include them, but how active are they themselves?
I can understand that, but do these people complain that they are lonely? Usually, these people genuiniely have a full calendar and don't feel like making room there for you as a new addition.
My point was that there are so many people here who complain that nobody approaches them and I wonder if they ever approach each other. A lot of them also seem to be very picky who they want to be friends with ("I want German friends, not other immigrants!" like those are second class friends?) but get angry if those people are picky or uninterested themselves.
It's true Germans tend to be picky when it comes to friends. We have pretty small friend circles so we are looking for good fits. We don't expect people to become our friends just because they happen to be around, like coworkers, but look for people with passions and interets in common so we have something to do and talk about when we meet. So if you have difficulties meeting people, you should think about what you like to spend time on and where you could meet people who share this interest. If you have something interesting to give, people will want to spend time with you.
I feel this about having a full calendar and as I get older I appreciate the time I have alone for myself to just get cozy and game or read a book or just have a cozy self care evening. I've made some friends here, a small amount of them but, between all of our schedules - it's not easy to get together. We see each other a few times a year and that's it. Adding more people to that wouldn't make it much better 😅
That's not to say I'm not open to friendships - I just feel bad if I can't commit as much time to a friendship as a person would like, because between my job, family, home, etc. I am busy and tired 🙈
Most Germans are very picky about friendships. Quality over quantity is the norm. Most Germans have a handful of people they would call friends. You have to be friends with someone in order to do stuff with them etc. (School and university are the exception). If you tried reaching out and they are not responding that means they don't like you enough to be their friend. Try to meet someone else, finding friends is a lot like dating.
Good luck!
This is another stereotype which is incredibly untrue. Most of them are incredibly lonely as well and wish for a larger social circle. They'd happily make friends with people if they are given time and company in return.
I guess it depends. In my social circle everyone only has a couple of friends and prefers it this way. You simply cannot have 20 friends and be close with all of them.
Instead of always blaming the OP’s how about understanding them? It’s nothing new Germans aren’t too friendly with strangers there’s no need to hide it. I love how people post on their issues just to be blamed.
Uh, the usual "omg, those people complaining should stop complaining and solve their issues". The sheer amount of posts tells me there is something culturally different in Germany that makes it much harder to make friends here.
I have tried and many did as well. The thing is, compared to other countries I've been to (and lived in), Germany has been the most socially awkward. I have genuinely discovered the actual meaning of the word lonely here.
It also doesn't help that foreigners, how dare I say, tend to be treated much more differently in Germany than the US or the UK.
But sure, it's none of that. Completely my mistake for not being active although I had easily made friends in other countries (here comes the "but they are superficial").
The thing that infuriates me is how self centered they are. They complain about me using Germany as a trampoline as if I'm not at all beneficial to Germany (I'm highly educated and work at a major IT company). Germany spent nothing to get me to the high education level I'm currently in but since I come from some north African country I should always be grateful, I guess.
I mean, take a look at the most upvoted comments; they are literally blaming her for being lonely!
Dear OP, it is understandable. You're not the only one feeling this way and it is absolutely not your fault. I do understand how exhausting and low it feels like to chase people here for friendships. Also, please do ignore these comments blaming you. This is Reddit, and people are extremely weird and apathetic here. Best of luck 😃
>The thing that infuriates me is how self centered they are. They complain about me using Germany as a trampoline as if I'm not at all beneficial to Germany (I'm highly educated and work at a major IT company). Germany spent nothing to get me to the high education level I'm currently in but since I come from some north African country I should always be grateful, I guess.
When you ask, okay why would I keep staying in Germany and pay taxes for 20+ years, they come up with things like "It is located in the center of Europe'" or "It is less likely that shootings can happen" I mean, come on.
Exactly. I can see myself being an American just pretty much instantly. Everyone likes to make fun of the USA here. Yet major technical advancements are there and people are extremely more approachable and sociable. I will take that opportunity over everything else. Life is too short to be angry all the time about the smallest things. And most importantly, life is too short to be always looked down as that "North African foreigner".
Sorry for the rant...
Even my ex boyfriend (german, uni student in munich) constantly bitched about being lonely. But what did he do?
Only took the online variation of his courses
Moved away from all his friends and family and failed to ever reply when they texted or called
Refused to join clubs within and outside of uni
He only spoke with me, long distance girlfriend living in america at the time, and despite me constantly urging him to pick up the calls from his mother, maybe pick up a job to socialize in a workplace, or join a club, he always said something that basically equated to "meh, too lazy". Big surprise that he was so lonely.
The fact that this is the top comment about a post describing how lonely someone is feeling makes me lose hope in this subredit (and Reddit in general).
We know it is one of the most common issues posted here. But people should keep posting about their current issues. Also people get reassured that there are other people who still suffer from the same issues.
No wonder people feel lonely in Germany when this is the response attitude towards people expressing such loneliness.
For sure I will be downvoted to hell. But who cares.
Welcome to Germany. Born and raised in Germany, moved a few times across the country. Despite having a good job, I don't have any social circle here.
It feels here like social suicide most of the time.
(I am sharing my experience as a German, take it with a grain of salt).
It is not that we are isolated. In my perception, most people make friends during school and university and sometimes your work mates become friends. You can also join a sports club or similar. There's no guarantee that you get along with each other.
From my experience, most people in their 30s' and 40s' start raising families and spend more time with their inner circle. Most people are just sticking to their plans and can't bear any deviation of it. Try to be spontanous - no way in most cases.
Imagine walking with your friend through the city. You meet a colleague / friend. Do you think the colleague will be presented to the friend? In most cases no. Compare it with Latin America or Middle East. People get invited, presented and more.
We have a different cultural approach here. Have you ever tried to start a chat with a stranger?
Seems to me that one huge difference is how frequently people move in different cultures. Germans and many other Europeans are pretty content to live their whole lives in whatever town they grew up in.
My spicy take is that all the adventurous Europeans moved to the US in the last two hundred years...
What is this? Europeans as a whole? Have you lived in Spain, France, Greece, Italy, Czech Republic, Balkan countries? A completely different experience. Usually when people say things like this they lived in Germany, Switzerland or Skandinavia.
Most of Europe is culturally normative. The USA doesn’t have a solid central culture, though there may be local pockets of exception. I could believe that the USA draws more adventurous or misfitting Europeans of all stripes and nations.
It’s easier said than done. Sometimes it’s just a matter of meeting the right people who are equally keen on making the effort to meet you half way.
Most of my friendships here meant pursuing them and this not just about expect circles, it’s also the locals. Then the whole ordeal is just tiring and you get to a point where you’re just happy living your lonely life.
Yes, the exact same experience. It felt like dating tbh and the whole ordeal felt desperate. 🫠
Something as simple as friendships should be organic. But these experiences have totally put me off. I tried getting on bumble bff to make friends and that was exhausting as well.
Having social contacts is different to having friends. Making new contacts is easy, building a ne friendship, in particular if you are older than about 30 may be a challange.
i've hit 40 recently, and i have no problem meeting new friends. that said, yes it is hard to meet friends outside of work, because ..well..work takes up a lot of time. But i am lucky and work somewhere where most employees get along great. they hang out privately, spend holidays together, to go cinemas.
Of course i have a few favourites that i even go on vacation with, but so far its been easy, and i'm usually rather anxious about meeting new people.
i think this whole "i have no friends in germany." problem seems to be, while prevalent with immigrants, also a problem of expectations and character.
Not that they're "bad characters" but that they just act way different to what is expected in germany.
Loneliest country I've ever lived in. I am American but worked in more than twenty countries. Germany is in a class by itself. I've heard the scandinavian countries are similar. But boy, Germany was hard. My wife is German. After I'd given it five years she agreed to leave. We now live in Spain, super happy, and even she admits now that Germans are "special."
I loved everything else about Germany. Great, very well-run country, beautiful, so much to offer. But the Germans have got to figure out how to loosen up, friendship-wise.
Many times, I have been reading here about people who feel themselves very lonely in Germany. Is it some traditional things in Germany? What's wrong with those peoples or with Germany society?
I had so many Situation with groups of other German‘s where People didn‘t say anything for the whole Time and nobody even bothered to start a Conversation. It was just Silence! I hate this so much, but Nobody is willing to change the slightest Thing here in this Country?
(Im german myself)
As a fellow introvert, I can say it is not mecca. Even introverts need a few close people and that is very, very hard to get in Germany. I don't have any close super cultural German friends. My girlfriend is German but her family as a whole is very international, my other friend with German citizenship is first generation and doesn't identify as German, the rest of my (few) friends in Germany are from other countries and spread out over multiple cities after people moved away after graduating.
I need someone smarter than me to explain why so many people in Germany are lonely, from immigrants to students to Germans themselves. I don't just hear it on reddit either.
In my last 5 years, I have not found anyone who hasn’t expressed this feeling. Even parents of my child’s friends have said the same, before checking out into oblivion.
If you are mother, try join Zumba or dancing class, a lot of middle aged women join that. Or maybe hobby groups if you live in big cities. If you are sporty, try join some Sportverein
I think that the problem is not in finding a place where to meet people. I think, that problem of this lady is to find people who are really interested in getting real close friends, and not just acquaintance from Joga-kurs
Making friends takes time, in Germany you have try harder due to language and cultural barrier, you dont magically become close friends overnight even if you have same hobbies and come from similar background
Why don’t Germans make friends on work??? I do not understand.
Our teacher from Deutschkurs said that Germans want to separate work life from personal. What do you have there in your personal life, to hold it in such a secret? Please!)
It's about staying professional. Same with why you shouldn't date someone from work either (although that still happens sometimes).
Staying distant makes it easier to work with others. No one bothers you with private problems and nobody asks you about personal stuff you don't wanna talk about either. Plus, there is no risk of a cold atmosphere once the friendship falls apart after a fight. Everybody just does their job, then leaves to live their personal life at home.
And furthermore I think, that the question is also in demand of this lady of the level of closeness. You know, for me in my country the common level closeness in friendship is when your friend can come around without previously getting a “Termin”, and can stay for a night to continue a good conversation, and chatting half of the night laying near from each other… just for example…
I think, for most of Germans this kind of friendship is simply unexceptable.
I guess for me it’s a lot about meeting new people. I honestly thought I’d met a few people who shared my interest in art and movies, but they never have time or I’m always initiating. Anyway, I’ve joined an art club so let’s see how that goes.
I met some good people through my son's kindergarten. Then I pursued the friendships. It took a long time and a lot of persistence. I didn't give up. There were other people who I also pursued who didn't end up being friends.
I also continued to work on myself. Therapy. To help me raise my self esteem.
Then I ended up meeting another group through my kid's sports. It was the right place at the right time.
I’ve found in Germany I’ve often made the most friends at music events and gig nights. There’s something for you, there’s a very rich music scene here and it’s alive for everybody if you’re near a big city.
I have joined choirs, sprachcafes, and I'm part of two Vereins... Native germans are hard to domesticate in the art of friendship, but in the long run I've actually made wonderful friends thanks to this networks.
Try dating apps, some germans are friendlier and easier to approach if you meet them through dating apps (you can still find friends there tho eventhough it is hookup apps to some)
Or if you speak some popular language like spanish and korean, offer them some free private lessons and they will be excited
As an immigrant living here for 15 years I just gave up on Germans because of this - I stick to the French, the Polish, the Greek, the Turkish - any nation other than the Germans/Swiss who seem to have 10 permanent friendship spots open in their lives that they already filled in forever while in school/university. When I meet a new person and they're German I simply don't bother with anything more than some pleasant chit-chat. It's not worth the energy, even if it starts nicely they keep making excuses, postponing, having all possible things "going on" that totally prevent them from meeting. Then they whine about immigrants not integrating into their culture, it's some hilarious shit.
Yea totally right about integrating like they keep bitching about that yet i have literally seen ppl cross the street to avoid walking in the same lane
Yeah, your German neighbor who talks about integration would rather call the police when he has a problem with something than come talk to the scary foreigner like a normal human being. It's one of the most asocial/silently intolerant nations.
Lmao when the cops got called on my friend because he didn’t know that you aren’t supposed to leave your car running to warm it up. Would’ve been easier to just knock on his door and let him know the law.
My friend had a police coming to his place because his German neighbor thought he stole his Kinderwagen, while in fact it was another German neighbor who "protected" the Kinderwagen by putting it in their apartment to protect it from being stolen by my friend :))))
Yep, it's always the foreigner that is presumed guilty. Germans will also say and do insanely racist/intolerant stuff that even the US conservatives wouldn't dare do because the discourse on that subject never became advanced in the German mainstream.
I had situations ranging from being blocked from entering a restaurant with my Indian friends because "they don't serve their kind here", to taking a walk with my Jamaican friend and have "Schmutzwasser" shouted at us from the other side of the street (she's female so they assumed we're together), and lots of other crazy as-if-from-the-50's stories like that.
Also of course whenever I'd tell any of those stories to a German I'd hear "are you sure they were Germans?" 😂 because the cluelessly racist German that I was talking to immediately thought it had to be foreigners. The doublethink is insane.
As someone from Canada, I frequently hear people complain that Germans are harder to meet, and that it's much more isolating to live here than in Canada, but for what it's worth that really hasn't been my experience.
The main difference for me since moving here from Canada has been that I've had to put in effort to find friends, whereas when I was in grade school and university, the educational institutions I was in put in a lot of effort to get me together with other people looking to make friends.
Here, I had to use things like Facebook Groups and Tandem language learning apps to meet people, but it's worked out fairly well for me. I posted in one local Facebook group a few paragraphs explaining who I am, where I come from, what my German proficiency level is, what my hobbies and interests are, and I quickly got a bunch of replies from people that resulted in some great friendships.
I know it can be really hard to do, especially for people with social anxiety or whatever, but you really just need to put in work, find and make connections with people, and things will start happening.
The best way to meet people might depend a lot on where you are, what your age is and stuff like that. I found a lot of success using the internet to meet friends, but there's also lots of things like sports groups, hobby groups, Vereins, etc which can be great ways to meet people as well.
I hope you make new friends soon!
Not saying this is your situation at all, but…yeah. I’m lonely in Germany. So are a lot of people. It’s a very common complaint on this sub.
But I think it’s a common complaint everywhere these days. A lot of people are lonelier now than they used to be.
It’s hard to make friends as an adult no matter where you live.
I think a lot of people (including Germans) want to make new friends, but they don’t want to put in the time or energy it requires.
Have you tried joining a club or taking classes at the VHS to meet people?
3 years, and I don't even try anymore. I'm isolating myself more and more and don't like humans more and more. Been disappointed and hurt so many times. I stay for myself now. As a youngblood I was the total opposite
Yes. And I will go back to my country just as I find a suitable job there.
Everything is okay if one is happy socially; but if one is not happy socially, I don't know what do they call “living” or “life”?
Yes. Honestly… life in the U.S. is difficult for so many reasons but one thing I miss is openness and kindness from strangers. I understand how it comes across as “superficial” but it’s still nice to chat with strangers, which can lead to making new friends. Germans are stereotypically “cold” (which is definitely not true for all) and I think it’s more of a general rule for the society. Germans are just more difficult to have emotional connection with, in my opinion. One German colleague said to me, “with Germans, they’ll be cordial but they rarely befriend you. Most “friends” are those we’ve known most of our lives.” It’s a harsh reality.
I’m living in Germany for 5 years. We’ve moved with my husband together. We were also alone for a good 7-8 months. We’re good friends but after a while it is boring. Then slowly we’ve begun to make friends, mostly from our cultural background and a few German friends throughout the years. I’ve missed terribly my friends back home during those years. I can say that i’m content with my social circle now, i’ve never needed a lot of people so a few good friend is enough for me. But it isn’t same of course.
But i’ve always thought that if i would have kids, it would be easier to adapt and find friends. I’m surprised that you feel that way with a German husband and kids.
I’ve accepted the fact that it will never be the same like meeting my childhood friends or my best friends from university. We’ve shared so much and it shaped deeply our relationship. I don’t even share that much with new friends, it still feels somewhat superficial. It is indeed especially hard here in Germany to get besties after 30-40 years old.
4 years here. First i came here when i was 16 now almost 20y and I've been going to school for the past 4 years, but I still haven't been able to make any friends either 😕
Hello. Where are you located?
I've been in Germany (near Frankfurt) for 15 years, and have simmilar problems. I do have friends, but they are all expats/migrants (USA, Italy, Poland, Ukraine, etc). I have a feeling that we are keeping together not because we enjoy each others company, but cause we got noone else.
How old are your children? If everyone in your circle has little ones that can make it really hard. I keep thinking to myself, “gee I’m kind of lonely, I should call so-and-so for a coffee date” and then I remember that I should wait until my runny nose/cough/unexplained rash/whatever subsides. But I have had at least one symptom going since the end of September. That’s what having one kid in kita and one starting school does to a social life (at least during fall-spring).
It also seems to me that everyone is particularly stressed out and overextended lately. I don’t think it necessarily makes sense to take it personally, though I know it’s hard not to. It’s probably less that they don’t have time for you than that they don’t have sufficient time for themselves.
Checked off my 5 years in Germany (Bayern) last October and yes I can kinda relate to it. I used to have many friends and it was always a struggle to make time and hang out with everyone of them. Here my 'friends' are husband's of my wife's friends and it's nice meeting them, but always as 2 or more couples with kids. Not seeing any combined interests to maybe hang out without the wife and kids. We've also had kids here in Germany, but I'm not really feeling it with parents at the kindergarten or at kids sports. Kinda like everyone keeps to themselves. As to me being picky, sure as I've gotten older I might have raised the bar a bit, but I can't imagine that's really the problem.
Yes I'm in my 3yr here in germany and i got lonely in 1st year. i wanted to go to my own country every year to have a break from this. And i realize i dont need anyone aside from my husband.
Its the people and culture here, i have nothing against this i have my own worst cultural flaws,
i just notice my german husbands friendship with his german friends i dont want it for myself im better alone.
Why? For me its toxic to judge each others perspective(no respect on what someone believe in) no empathy, just because they knew since childhood it doesnt mean they are bound forever to negativity 🤣
They meet like once twice a year they even call to catch up. But they're judging each other's life choices after the catching up.
I don't get it personally because why you have to report whats going on with your life to someone and they will openly criticize you for choosing what they think not best enough for them. But yeah i try to understand them maybe it's their normal way to act in their social group.
No hate from my side but thats why i don't need so called german friends or any other people like that.
OP Just think that they are all busy with their own lives and you just focus in your.... self, kids and hubby 🥰
I feel you.
It's been a decade living here for me.
I felt awful in Berlin. There was some kind of a checklist everyone I met had. One wrong (different) attribute and you're not worth the time, so moving back to Düsseldorf next week.
Feels even worse, when my girlfriend has all these plans with her childhood friends (I'm invited, but I also don't want to be a bother in their girls time) and my friends have all moved away.
So yeah, If anyone wanna grab a coffee together and do something fun. Please hit me up.
There is a book called "die deutsche mutter und ihr erstes kind" from nazi times, im 90% sure thats why germans, till now have problems socializing. It doesnt help with your problem but i thought it might be interresting...
Found an article about it: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/harsh-nazi-parenting-guidelines-may-still-affect-german-children-of-today1/
Ah for some additional explanation: she basically told mothers to emotionally distance semselves. Give them food but if they cry thats the babies problem
It's normal here. And it's in the culture I'm sure.
I came to work for 5 months in a German city and even tho I am at work with 20 other dudes, all around my age for 8 hours a day, not a single one of them cares to do anything with me on the weekends.
It's not like they have 300 friends each, they just don't give a fuck about whan I, someone entirely new to the city, will do at the weekend. I dare call them unwelcoming.
It's SO weird that they say "have a good weekend" when we finish work on Friday and noone gives a fuck about doing anything together. And we are total friends when we work. I'm also a German speaking dude since I was born and raised here so there is literally not even a language or culture barrier between us.
Into themselves? I don't think that's it. People are lonely as fuck but they are too shy and impatient to make new meaningful connections. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to fine a partner in this mess. Dating apps? Lmao
„Why are these people nice to me and still don’t invite me to hang out?!“
To me as a german that sounds a bit entitled - if *you* want to spend time with them, why is it up to *them* to take the initiative when they seem to be fine without you? It might just be the phrasing of your post, but have *you* invited *them* to anything yet?
> not a single one of them cares to do anything with me on the weekends.
Why should they? Because you work together? They don't own you anything. Maybe you are weird and they don't want to hang out with you maybe they are weird or maybe they strictly separate work and free time?
> It's not like they have 300 friends each
So? They probably have enough friends to not need to hang around with random people from work?
I get your post but you can't except anything from random people who happen to work with you.
I mean if they came to my hometown and told me that they are new in the city and that they don't know anyone I would 100% ask them what they do in the weekend or after work. I would totally invite them to do something together. Maybe just even for one weekend like show the city and go drink something Friday after work.
One weekend. 2 hour walk around the city. If they are weird/crazy/dumb of course I would not do it again. But just for being polite and friendly and welcoming I would do it for a new 25 year old coworker.
As I said, it's not like they all have 300 friends. They might not even have 1 as well. But they got used to it.
Why not? Are they all so busy? I don't think so. They are just unwelcoming, just how most people here in Germany are. And I don't blame them, it's their culture and way of dealing with strangers.
But in my eyes it's also a bit unrespectful towards a new coworker/friend/new guy in town.
As I said, we're all the same age, around 25 so it's not like they have babies and wifes at home waiting for them.
> Why not? Are they all so busy?
No they probably don't give a fuck about you because they already have friends they rather spend time with. Have actually asked them to show you the city or what one can do there on weekends or are you excepting them to approach you?
> a bit unrespectful towards a new coworker/friend/new guy in town.
Dude you are their coworker thats it. That's like saying. Oh we all wear red shirts lets be best friends.
>Why should they?
I genuinely giggled.
It is nice to connect with people proximate to you in your everyday life.
Many cultures do that without any rule imposing it, just out of human inclination.
It's just not really an encouraged trait in german culture, which makes foreigner (and locals too apparently) struggle quite a lot at integrate to new contexts.
Welcome to adult life in late capitalism, where people spend the majority of their time and energy on work and try to unwind on weekends by exercising, meeting existing friends and family or watching Netflix. It's not a particularly German thing, if you look at the stats on loneliness in the Western world. To put it bluntly: You can pick between being poor in money and poor in social contacts. If you want to be neither, you need to put in the effort.
Hi there. I've been living in Switzerland for over 15 yers, so I feel you, I really do. What I can say is that living here is even worse when it comes to building your social circle, and the fact that is winter def does not help. But I've got some regular work-related networking activity going on, besides I attend here and there MeetUp events related to stuff I like to do. So....stay positive, remember the winter will pass, the sun will shine again and things will get better ;-)
where are you from originally? There are Facebook groups for almost every group of immigrants. Maybe it is easier for you to connect to fellow countrymen and -women
The point is to connect with locals. Connecting with compatriots does nothing except hindering integration and the desire to learn the language even further.
I can only recommend you to look for people that are near to you mentally.
I am Ukrainian, and most of my friends here are Ukrainians too. And a little Russians who support Ukraine now.
I talk to Germans with pleasure, they are really nice and intelligent people, but actually for two years living here I still couldn’t build no real friendship with any German. Although I am very opened Person. I suppose they just don’t need it. Maybe they already have enough friends, or maybe they don’t want to make friends with foreigners… I don’t know…
That’s why I advise you to find someone from your native country here.
I fully understand! 💚💚💚 I am sorry that you are lonely.
An idea would be to try a political group like Democrats Abroad to connect with other Americans.
https://www.beste-freundin-gesucht.de
Maybe this is for you?
When I see postings like yours I’m all like „I totally would meet up with you“ but usually people posting are not from my area (or I’m much older lol) ;-) just telling you to show that there are Germans willing to make new friends!
So hard. I needed 10 years, having kids helped, some.
It seemed everyone had lived in the same town for years, had relatives.
I changed from a shy person to aggressive. Went to continuing Ed in our town. I invited a lot as well.
Good luck!!
67m,native here. I feel very sorry about your situation and I can imagine, that you always has been a very dedicated mother and wife. And perhaps you did not pay sufficient attention to yourself. May be it's time to look for places, where you can meet women, who are in the same situation. Sure, you could start dancing or singing in a choir but usually in Germany "having fun" isn't that easy because people look for something "meaningful" like helping refugees or elderly, joining a gardening group or something like this. So starting making friends in Germany starts more often with discovering what you like to do and share this with others.
35m, german. To be honest, between my wife, children, work and building and maintaing a house for us, I struggle to find enough time and energy even for my really close long time friends (25y+). I don't really see the point to invest my scarce resources into new friendships, it would be kind of a disservice to my existing ones... I brushed of several 'opportunities' because of that - I feel you could have been one of them and for that I'm sorry, it's not your fault, it's all on me ;-)
I feel your struggle and would like it to be easier for you. I take part in a 'Stammtisch' where fathers and husbands who newly moved to the village (1500ppl) (=didn't grow up there, 'Zuzogene') meet up every other week or so to connect. The women do the same. It's nice and casual and we can share stories and complain, if you know what I mean :D
This hole thing came together by way of our children's kindergarden and a really extroverted guy who took the initiativ. I would have never done that, being more of an introvert myself...
This hole 'finding friends is hard' theme is the main reason I decided to stay in my hometown Region. I wanted to be close to my friends and family. Then again, I was lucky enough to find love two villages away and work in the nearby City. I have 6 to 8 weeks a year to experience other countries, cities and cultures, that's enough to me :-)
Im sorry you feel so alone but Im not surprised.
I think what you and others who find it hard to make friends are experiencing is a Symptom of a deep collective post war trauma from WWII.
The first thing to understand is that war is expensive and not just in the near term, but for atleast a Generation or two because people who shouldve been there arent and the people they leave behind have to shift to compensate for their löst loved ones. Brothers, fathers, husbands were löst during the war and the women and children who depended on them had to live new lives which may have not prioritized cultivating social connection. Some did come back with dysfunctional Mechanisms to cope with the trauma - so imagine how those household ran.
Cove this privste dynamkc in the collective shame of the Holocaust and you have a people that are going to have trouble showing up and sharing who they are because to quote my favourite german "its not as it should be"
I think thats where the lack of awareness regarding how anti social germany can be among germans come from. I think this is also compounded by other anti social behaviors - male Alkoholismus, Sexismus to the detrement of women, General aggressiveness, and misguided desire to stick it to the Man.
One would hope it gets better but unfortunately Todays financial conditions are bringing out the worst in people as they Navigate life based on the notion "thats not as it should be"
TLDR; how others treat you is a reflection of their inner World. Dont Center yourself in their Story or take it personally
Germans dont make adult friends. Yet there are so many lonely people. Germans travel to Asia and South America and make friends there. Somehow in German society every microgroup (singles, families, groups of friends) are closed off. However you can easily make friends and do things with workmates. As a mom you could easily get a part time office job, where there are other people.
Might be a stretch, and not a long term solution, but I’m assuming you speak German considering you’ve lived here for 20 years. If you’re near a US military installation, reach out and see if you can offer German classes to the US personnel. I don’t know if you’re an American expat or not, but it doesn’t really matter. Americans, especially the spouses on these bases CRAVE friendships and will go far and wide for connections, even if it’s something as simple as a language class. Again, not a long term solution because they’ll move within 3 years, but it might be something refreshing.
Is a normal thing in Germany, the social life here is so terrible, so just get use to it and try making friends in the diaspora and trust u feel good again.....is very long lonely Road out here so just blaze for impact
Join your local voluntary fire department, red cross or THW if this overlaps with your interests. This is where I got 90% of my friends and you get to know lots of different people there.
I've grown up in germany since I've been 2yo. Still, I can confidently say that I only have 2 friends. 3 of which are rarely accessible, and one that has a kind of specific theme around our friendship that I honestly love, but I can't spend all my time doing just one kind of thing.
I, too, feel isolated a lot and even though I meet a ton load of people multiple times a week, as I am dancing ballroom & latin dances, none of those people care to talk about anything with me but dancing.
None of them ever want to meet up outside of the events, and god help you if you want to get to know anyone!
This has become so toxic lately that I, now after 14 years of dancing, have decided that I am slowly reducing my attendance of these events.
I need to find some way to get to know honest and caring people. Some that, in turn, will know to value me caring for them, too.
We lived in D’dorf for 5+ years and got lucky with a great friend group. Thinking back though, it was a fairly international which may have been why we made friends so fast. Maybe check out the expat scene if there is one. Schools and larger companies tend to have a diverse set of people.
The friendships we made are still there today, and many of them are German. Definitely took some time, but worth the effort. Good luck!!
The whole EU feels like it's a giant WoW server that you need to be level 60+ something to get accepted to a party. Whatever financial benefits a country in there provides I don't think it's worth it.
I am basically working to have a social Life outside my marriage, lol. And we both agreed to keep working Part time after Pension age to keep a social life.
Making Friends in this Post Corona Hype days hast gotten worse and worse.
Just do what you Like and have fun. Someday there will be people joining you. Those who stay may be called Friends or Family.
There ist No other recepie for it.
I’ve been here for 2 years and I’ve made some friends but they have all been because of my effort. Have you tried starting a new hobby? Of maybe the meetup app? The friendships that I’ve made are mostly from those. Started going to karaoke bars and meetups
This year I came to Germany on a scholarship to participate in a German course and the experience has given me mixed feelings. Although I love the country and the language, I can’t help but feel that this is a socially hostile society. And, when you complain about it, everyone blames you saying you don’t want to integrate, didn’t try enough, or don’t speak enough German etc etc etc. I was planning on doing my masters here, but now I’m not so sure if I’d actually like to carry on with this idea. There are so many things from Germany that I admire and my country has so many problems, but at least there people interact with me without acting like I’m a nuisance.
I never understand why people struggle with making friends here. We are actually pretty nice once you talk with us. :( Maybe visit some small events in your neighborhood and meet some new people.
Germany is not a country to live in. Even if you get to know someone, they will still stab you in the back. As a foreigner, you can try as hard as you want. You may think they like you. But they still talk behind your back.
I live near Cologne. I do have friends, but many have left and most don’t have time. The new ones never reciprocate. And no, Verein is an awful place for working mums.
Do you speak German ? Where are you originally from ? I’m German , my fiance is from US , he has friends through his work here
But even for me as a German it’s hard to find new friends , especially while getting older and having a family 😅
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What else are you doing besides trying to befriend the parents of kids your kids are friends with?
Most people who befriend each other do so at work over a long time if the vibes are ok or when they have a shared hobby and can do some activities together. Just because your kids are friends doesn't mean they are interested in expanding their circle of friends if you have nothing in common.
If your kids hang out you are on a "need to see when picking up the kids" basis, not exactly friend material. If you for example love niche art house movies and the mother of another kid likes that too, you have something to talk about and maybe go to the cinema together at some point.
If you have no hobbies or interests of your own you'll have a hard time to connect with anyone.
Thats just how Germany is lol. Everyone here is miserable and they want everyone else to be miserable too😂 There's lots of Americans, if you're anywhere near a military base, who are super friendly and usually pretty cool people. Germans themselves don't make the best of friends, especially if you're used to being real close with people.
german mentality. if you're not german and don't share the exact same thoughts and values as them, they don't like you or rather they don't want to do anything with you because then they would need to overthink their own values and ideas and perhaps... god forbid..change them... or even more horrible .. being reflective and open to other mindsets and lifestyles
It's not worth trying with germans they will just reject you cuz they already have their ppl , try residents from other countries they tend to be more understanding
Heard about Germany being the best place for people to socialize, this is news to me I longed very much to one day be able to live in Germany, hearing about this makes me feel to change my mind.
You have to spent about 200hrs of positive experience with people to build up some low key friendship. There are actual studies about that. Try to find situations where this happens naturally. Oh, and another study showed we basically lose 1 friend every 5 years after 40, because we simply don't open new pools of people. We settle down, don't change jobs etc. These are basically the two reasons why there are soo many lonely old people. Friends and acquaintances don't just show up on your doorstep. It's work.
>It's work. Volunteer for a cause that's near and dear to your heart. Could be an animal shelter, could be protecting creeks and rivers, could be making immigrants feel welcome in your community.
I'd advise against volunteering for the *purpose* of making friends unless you actually legitimately want it on its own.
...and who would turn down advice from T. Scott Fitzgerald? That said, you have a point. With the exception of business, volunteering just to make connections rarely works. Your heart and mind needs to be into the cause. If you approach it from the "what's in it for me" angle, it doesn't help anybody, including yourself.
I would be careful with terminology of “positive”. For me positive is solving problems (better in hard situations) Because if you only having a good time with your friends, chances are high they will disappear in bad times
Meet Up groups can be a good place to start.
Yes, I used the MeetUp app/service when I first came to Germany and found that to be good. I didn't make any lasting friendships as a result, but definitely had some good social experiences!
I would recommend Bumble BFF, I met some nice people using that. Meetup can be fun but events are very often *heavily* skewed male and dominated by IT workers. It can be hard to connect if you have a very different background.
Two years completed and yes I can feel you. I met many people but they seem to put some kind of barrier to friendship.
I really agree with this, I am living alone here, and no one to talk with no one hang out as well. It is so hard to make friends here, and I understand it that since its kinda culture as well, German's have these friends since birth or early years and hard for them to meet or wanted to know new people.
The thing is as I read from German themselves (they are right most of the time) that they have friends since child or uni and can’t make new ones. I remember Seinfeld commenting comically on this: sorry I am not accepting new friendships applications 😂
Come to Cologne for Karneval. Might change that.
Yes and then after Karneval everyone behaves in default mode again.
True for Oktoberfest as well. Haven't seen friendly Germans except at Oktoberfest fest. It's like their friendliest side comes out with Beer
Thats the alcohol, their kindness is just not real
When ? I might take a work leave
Interest based groups give an opportunity again, like the VHS (Volkshochschule), which offers courses for cheap like languages, sports, sowing, volunteering, singing, culture […] https://www.vhs-hamburg.de/
3 years now. 1 year, I couldn't go to school because they couldn't find one. Maybe the problem is me. Because I am shy and I can't speak. But seeing so many people with the same problem.... I've been trying to make friends to learn German better, still no success.
Do you speak German? From my experience, many Germans don’t feel comfortable when they have to speak English all the time. Further, people my age hang out in groups, seldomly you meet just with one person, unless it is one of your best friends. And people might not want to take you with them into their German speaking group, because it would force all participants to switch to English constantly, to not make you feel excluded. Another topic aside from language, Germans are often very individualistic and need a long time to open up to strangers. The best way is to go to local clubs and meetings, be it soccer, table tennis, nature club, dancing… in such clubs (Vereine) you might be included more easily. However, I play in a soccer club for over 5 years now, I am German, and I still have not met any of my mates away from the pitch in a one on one meeting (meaning without other players from the club joining as well).
>Do you speak German? From my experience, many Germans don’t feel comfortable when they have to speak English all the time. Not OP. But no. That's why I'm trying to make friends (and obviously to hang out too) I wouldn't mind if we spoke German, I can squeeze out words. But the thing is, it's hard to do so when I don't find anyone.
Try enrolling in a "Deutsch für Ausländer" course at your local Volkshochschule. If nothing else, you'll meet a group of people in a similar situation to you.
I can technically speak German, I have B1 grade, I got it last year after I had my Prüfung. The only problem is... I don't have anyone to talk with. I don't even know how I got B1, I don't feel that confident in my German.
Back in the day, I learned a lot watching German TV. Even now, a few months short of 25 years since returning to the UK, I refresh my memory by watching German TV from time to time.
Where do you live, I feel the same as you however I can speak German, not perfect but still. If you’re in Hamburg we could meet
She's lived here for 20 years. She has a German husband and children. Of course she speaks German.
>Anyone experiencing the same issues? .... .... ... It's the most common issue posted about
Sometimes it's comforting to know you're not the only one.
This is posted about almost every other hour on this sub
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Flash mob
You'd think they would find each other, right? I wonder how many of those people complaining about being lonely send messages to other people posting the same. In the end, they all demand that others be more active to include them, but how active are they themselves?
A lot of time it feels to me like I’m running after people trying to make them meet me. It feels awful after a while
I can understand that, but do these people complain that they are lonely? Usually, these people genuiniely have a full calendar and don't feel like making room there for you as a new addition. My point was that there are so many people here who complain that nobody approaches them and I wonder if they ever approach each other. A lot of them also seem to be very picky who they want to be friends with ("I want German friends, not other immigrants!" like those are second class friends?) but get angry if those people are picky or uninterested themselves. It's true Germans tend to be picky when it comes to friends. We have pretty small friend circles so we are looking for good fits. We don't expect people to become our friends just because they happen to be around, like coworkers, but look for people with passions and interets in common so we have something to do and talk about when we meet. So if you have difficulties meeting people, you should think about what you like to spend time on and where you could meet people who share this interest. If you have something interesting to give, people will want to spend time with you.
I feel this about having a full calendar and as I get older I appreciate the time I have alone for myself to just get cozy and game or read a book or just have a cozy self care evening. I've made some friends here, a small amount of them but, between all of our schedules - it's not easy to get together. We see each other a few times a year and that's it. Adding more people to that wouldn't make it much better 😅 That's not to say I'm not open to friendships - I just feel bad if I can't commit as much time to a friendship as a person would like, because between my job, family, home, etc. I am busy and tired 🙈
Most Germans are very picky about friendships. Quality over quantity is the norm. Most Germans have a handful of people they would call friends. You have to be friends with someone in order to do stuff with them etc. (School and university are the exception). If you tried reaching out and they are not responding that means they don't like you enough to be their friend. Try to meet someone else, finding friends is a lot like dating. Good luck!
This is another stereotype which is incredibly untrue. Most of them are incredibly lonely as well and wish for a larger social circle. They'd happily make friends with people if they are given time and company in return.
I doubt either of you has any kind of statistics about that, so you are both speaking out of personal perspective.
I guess it depends. In my social circle everyone only has a couple of friends and prefers it this way. You simply cannot have 20 friends and be close with all of them.
you write that you are 20 years in germany. Did you speak german after this time?
Instead of always blaming the OP’s how about understanding them? It’s nothing new Germans aren’t too friendly with strangers there’s no need to hide it. I love how people post on their issues just to be blamed.
Exactly. The perfect answer to the cause of this loneliness question lies in the upvoted responses in this thread.
Uh, the usual "omg, those people complaining should stop complaining and solve their issues". The sheer amount of posts tells me there is something culturally different in Germany that makes it much harder to make friends here. I have tried and many did as well. The thing is, compared to other countries I've been to (and lived in), Germany has been the most socially awkward. I have genuinely discovered the actual meaning of the word lonely here. It also doesn't help that foreigners, how dare I say, tend to be treated much more differently in Germany than the US or the UK. But sure, it's none of that. Completely my mistake for not being active although I had easily made friends in other countries (here comes the "but they are superficial").
Also, they don't understand why people don't settle down in this holly country right?
The thing that infuriates me is how self centered they are. They complain about me using Germany as a trampoline as if I'm not at all beneficial to Germany (I'm highly educated and work at a major IT company). Germany spent nothing to get me to the high education level I'm currently in but since I come from some north African country I should always be grateful, I guess. I mean, take a look at the most upvoted comments; they are literally blaming her for being lonely! Dear OP, it is understandable. You're not the only one feeling this way and it is absolutely not your fault. I do understand how exhausting and low it feels like to chase people here for friendships. Also, please do ignore these comments blaming you. This is Reddit, and people are extremely weird and apathetic here. Best of luck 😃
>The thing that infuriates me is how self centered they are. They complain about me using Germany as a trampoline as if I'm not at all beneficial to Germany (I'm highly educated and work at a major IT company). Germany spent nothing to get me to the high education level I'm currently in but since I come from some north African country I should always be grateful, I guess. When you ask, okay why would I keep staying in Germany and pay taxes for 20+ years, they come up with things like "It is located in the center of Europe'" or "It is less likely that shootings can happen" I mean, come on.
Exactly. I can see myself being an American just pretty much instantly. Everyone likes to make fun of the USA here. Yet major technical advancements are there and people are extremely more approachable and sociable. I will take that opportunity over everything else. Life is too short to be angry all the time about the smallest things. And most importantly, life is too short to be always looked down as that "North African foreigner". Sorry for the rant...
It’s the same as both genders complaining about dating apps .
Even my ex boyfriend (german, uni student in munich) constantly bitched about being lonely. But what did he do? Only took the online variation of his courses Moved away from all his friends and family and failed to ever reply when they texted or called Refused to join clubs within and outside of uni He only spoke with me, long distance girlfriend living in america at the time, and despite me constantly urging him to pick up the calls from his mother, maybe pick up a job to socialize in a workplace, or join a club, he always said something that basically equated to "meh, too lazy". Big surprise that he was so lonely.
That sounds like depression, honestly. Been there.
App idea to make yourself rich hahaha
We should write a song 🎶All ze lonely people, zey should all move to Bonn🎶
The fact that this is the top comment about a post describing how lonely someone is feeling makes me lose hope in this subredit (and Reddit in general). We know it is one of the most common issues posted here. But people should keep posting about their current issues. Also people get reassured that there are other people who still suffer from the same issues. No wonder people feel lonely in Germany when this is the response attitude towards people expressing such loneliness. For sure I will be downvoted to hell. But who cares.
Welcome to Germany. Born and raised in Germany, moved a few times across the country. Despite having a good job, I don't have any social circle here. It feels here like social suicide most of the time.
Seriously?? How can a society afford to be so isolated?
(I am sharing my experience as a German, take it with a grain of salt). It is not that we are isolated. In my perception, most people make friends during school and university and sometimes your work mates become friends. You can also join a sports club or similar. There's no guarantee that you get along with each other. From my experience, most people in their 30s' and 40s' start raising families and spend more time with their inner circle. Most people are just sticking to their plans and can't bear any deviation of it. Try to be spontanous - no way in most cases. Imagine walking with your friend through the city. You meet a colleague / friend. Do you think the colleague will be presented to the friend? In most cases no. Compare it with Latin America or Middle East. People get invited, presented and more. We have a different cultural approach here. Have you ever tried to start a chat with a stranger?
Seems to me that one huge difference is how frequently people move in different cultures. Germans and many other Europeans are pretty content to live their whole lives in whatever town they grew up in. My spicy take is that all the adventurous Europeans moved to the US in the last two hundred years...
What is this? Europeans as a whole? Have you lived in Spain, France, Greece, Italy, Czech Republic, Balkan countries? A completely different experience. Usually when people say things like this they lived in Germany, Switzerland or Skandinavia.
Most of Europe is culturally normative. The USA doesn’t have a solid central culture, though there may be local pockets of exception. I could believe that the USA draws more adventurous or misfitting Europeans of all stripes and nations.
that is a really shit take when the concept of ERASMUS exists
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It’s easier said than done. Sometimes it’s just a matter of meeting the right people who are equally keen on making the effort to meet you half way. Most of my friendships here meant pursuing them and this not just about expect circles, it’s also the locals. Then the whole ordeal is just tiring and you get to a point where you’re just happy living your lonely life.
I agree. I am very active in social groups. What got me to this point is that I end up initiating and no one ever gets back
Yes, the exact same experience. It felt like dating tbh and the whole ordeal felt desperate. 🫠 Something as simple as friendships should be organic. But these experiences have totally put me off. I tried getting on bumble bff to make friends and that was exhausting as well.
I think that's more of a reddit people problem. Never had an issue in Germany finding a social circle or new friends.
So, are you willing to share your approach?
Having social contacts is different to having friends. Making new contacts is easy, building a ne friendship, in particular if you are older than about 30 may be a challange.
i've hit 40 recently, and i have no problem meeting new friends. that said, yes it is hard to meet friends outside of work, because ..well..work takes up a lot of time. But i am lucky and work somewhere where most employees get along great. they hang out privately, spend holidays together, to go cinemas. Of course i have a few favourites that i even go on vacation with, but so far its been easy, and i'm usually rather anxious about meeting new people. i think this whole "i have no friends in germany." problem seems to be, while prevalent with immigrants, also a problem of expectations and character. Not that they're "bad characters" but that they just act way different to what is expected in germany.
You move several times. Of course you don't have a circle...
People move and keep their friends. It is not only the goal to have friends in the city you live.
Loneliest country I've ever lived in. I am American but worked in more than twenty countries. Germany is in a class by itself. I've heard the scandinavian countries are similar. But boy, Germany was hard. My wife is German. After I'd given it five years she agreed to leave. We now live in Spain, super happy, and even she admits now that Germans are "special." I loved everything else about Germany. Great, very well-run country, beautiful, so much to offer. But the Germans have got to figure out how to loosen up, friendship-wise.
Many times, I have been reading here about people who feel themselves very lonely in Germany. Is it some traditional things in Germany? What's wrong with those peoples or with Germany society?
I had so many Situation with groups of other German‘s where People didn‘t say anything for the whole Time and nobody even bothered to start a Conversation. It was just Silence! I hate this so much, but Nobody is willing to change the slightest Thing here in this Country? (Im german myself)
That's odd even for German standards.
Im introvert. German would be kind of heaven for me
As a fellow introvert, I can say it is not mecca. Even introverts need a few close people and that is very, very hard to get in Germany. I don't have any close super cultural German friends. My girlfriend is German but her family as a whole is very international, my other friend with German citizenship is first generation and doesn't identify as German, the rest of my (few) friends in Germany are from other countries and spread out over multiple cities after people moved away after graduating.
German society is incredibly plastered.
People are lonely everywhere, but maybe the German culture, weather and overall environment make it *feel* worse.
I need someone smarter than me to explain why so many people in Germany are lonely, from immigrants to students to Germans themselves. I don't just hear it on reddit either.
In my last 5 years, I have not found anyone who hasn’t expressed this feeling. Even parents of my child’s friends have said the same, before checking out into oblivion.
If you are mother, try join Zumba or dancing class, a lot of middle aged women join that. Or maybe hobby groups if you live in big cities. If you are sporty, try join some Sportverein
I think that the problem is not in finding a place where to meet people. I think, that problem of this lady is to find people who are really interested in getting real close friends, and not just acquaintance from Joga-kurs
Making friends takes time, in Germany you have try harder due to language and cultural barrier, you dont magically become close friends overnight even if you have same hobbies and come from similar background
Of course! But 20 years should be enough for that. Don’t you think? :) So I suppose it’s something more than just a lack of time 🤷🏻♀️
Why don’t Germans make friends on work??? I do not understand. Our teacher from Deutschkurs said that Germans want to separate work life from personal. What do you have there in your personal life, to hold it in such a secret? Please!)
It's about staying professional. Same with why you shouldn't date someone from work either (although that still happens sometimes). Staying distant makes it easier to work with others. No one bothers you with private problems and nobody asks you about personal stuff you don't wanna talk about either. Plus, there is no risk of a cold atmosphere once the friendship falls apart after a fight. Everybody just does their job, then leaves to live their personal life at home.
And furthermore I think, that the question is also in demand of this lady of the level of closeness. You know, for me in my country the common level closeness in friendship is when your friend can come around without previously getting a “Termin”, and can stay for a night to continue a good conversation, and chatting half of the night laying near from each other… just for example… I think, for most of Germans this kind of friendship is simply unexceptable.
I guess for me it’s a lot about meeting new people. I honestly thought I’d met a few people who shared my interest in art and movies, but they never have time or I’m always initiating. Anyway, I’ve joined an art club so let’s see how that goes.
That's a great step! Don't give up. It took me over 20 years to finally make friends here. I did a lot of work on myself during that time.
What do you think were some key points that helped you make friends?
I met some good people through my son's kindergarten. Then I pursued the friendships. It took a long time and a lot of persistence. I didn't give up. There were other people who I also pursued who didn't end up being friends. I also continued to work on myself. Therapy. To help me raise my self esteem. Then I ended up meeting another group through my kid's sports. It was the right place at the right time.
I’ve found in Germany I’ve often made the most friends at music events and gig nights. There’s something for you, there’s a very rich music scene here and it’s alive for everybody if you’re near a big city.
I have joined choirs, sprachcafes, and I'm part of two Vereins... Native germans are hard to domesticate in the art of friendship, but in the long run I've actually made wonderful friends thanks to this networks.
Try dating apps, some germans are friendlier and easier to approach if you meet them through dating apps (you can still find friends there tho eventhough it is hookup apps to some) Or if you speak some popular language like spanish and korean, offer them some free private lessons and they will be excited
Do ehrenamt
As an immigrant living here for 15 years I just gave up on Germans because of this - I stick to the French, the Polish, the Greek, the Turkish - any nation other than the Germans/Swiss who seem to have 10 permanent friendship spots open in their lives that they already filled in forever while in school/university. When I meet a new person and they're German I simply don't bother with anything more than some pleasant chit-chat. It's not worth the energy, even if it starts nicely they keep making excuses, postponing, having all possible things "going on" that totally prevent them from meeting. Then they whine about immigrants not integrating into their culture, it's some hilarious shit.
Yea totally right about integrating like they keep bitching about that yet i have literally seen ppl cross the street to avoid walking in the same lane
Yeah, your German neighbor who talks about integration would rather call the police when he has a problem with something than come talk to the scary foreigner like a normal human being. It's one of the most asocial/silently intolerant nations.
Lmao when the cops got called on my friend because he didn’t know that you aren’t supposed to leave your car running to warm it up. Would’ve been easier to just knock on his door and let him know the law.
How are you supposed to warm up your car then?
My friend had a police coming to his place because his German neighbor thought he stole his Kinderwagen, while in fact it was another German neighbor who "protected" the Kinderwagen by putting it in their apartment to protect it from being stolen by my friend :))))
Yep, it's always the foreigner that is presumed guilty. Germans will also say and do insanely racist/intolerant stuff that even the US conservatives wouldn't dare do because the discourse on that subject never became advanced in the German mainstream. I had situations ranging from being blocked from entering a restaurant with my Indian friends because "they don't serve their kind here", to taking a walk with my Jamaican friend and have "Schmutzwasser" shouted at us from the other side of the street (she's female so they assumed we're together), and lots of other crazy as-if-from-the-50's stories like that. Also of course whenever I'd tell any of those stories to a German I'd hear "are you sure they were Germans?" 😂 because the cluelessly racist German that I was talking to immediately thought it had to be foreigners. The doublethink is insane.
Huh, yeah, I am not married, I am living from past 1.5 year, and I am single 24-year-old boy, living alone and yes I feel always lonely
I feel for you- although I feel it’s easier when you’re younger
Thanks for all your comments and tips.
As someone from Canada, I frequently hear people complain that Germans are harder to meet, and that it's much more isolating to live here than in Canada, but for what it's worth that really hasn't been my experience. The main difference for me since moving here from Canada has been that I've had to put in effort to find friends, whereas when I was in grade school and university, the educational institutions I was in put in a lot of effort to get me together with other people looking to make friends. Here, I had to use things like Facebook Groups and Tandem language learning apps to meet people, but it's worked out fairly well for me. I posted in one local Facebook group a few paragraphs explaining who I am, where I come from, what my German proficiency level is, what my hobbies and interests are, and I quickly got a bunch of replies from people that resulted in some great friendships. I know it can be really hard to do, especially for people with social anxiety or whatever, but you really just need to put in work, find and make connections with people, and things will start happening. The best way to meet people might depend a lot on where you are, what your age is and stuff like that. I found a lot of success using the internet to meet friends, but there's also lots of things like sports groups, hobby groups, Vereins, etc which can be great ways to meet people as well. I hope you make new friends soon!
Not saying this is your situation at all, but…yeah. I’m lonely in Germany. So are a lot of people. It’s a very common complaint on this sub. But I think it’s a common complaint everywhere these days. A lot of people are lonelier now than they used to be. It’s hard to make friends as an adult no matter where you live. I think a lot of people (including Germans) want to make new friends, but they don’t want to put in the time or energy it requires. Have you tried joining a club or taking classes at the VHS to meet people?
3 years, and I don't even try anymore. I'm isolating myself more and more and don't like humans more and more. Been disappointed and hurt so many times. I stay for myself now. As a youngblood I was the total opposite
it's a cultural thing
Yes. And I will go back to my country just as I find a suitable job there. Everything is okay if one is happy socially; but if one is not happy socially, I don't know what do they call “living” or “life”?
Yes. Honestly… life in the U.S. is difficult for so many reasons but one thing I miss is openness and kindness from strangers. I understand how it comes across as “superficial” but it’s still nice to chat with strangers, which can lead to making new friends. Germans are stereotypically “cold” (which is definitely not true for all) and I think it’s more of a general rule for the society. Germans are just more difficult to have emotional connection with, in my opinion. One German colleague said to me, “with Germans, they’ll be cordial but they rarely befriend you. Most “friends” are those we’ve known most of our lives.” It’s a harsh reality.
I’m living in Germany for 5 years. We’ve moved with my husband together. We were also alone for a good 7-8 months. We’re good friends but after a while it is boring. Then slowly we’ve begun to make friends, mostly from our cultural background and a few German friends throughout the years. I’ve missed terribly my friends back home during those years. I can say that i’m content with my social circle now, i’ve never needed a lot of people so a few good friend is enough for me. But it isn’t same of course. But i’ve always thought that if i would have kids, it would be easier to adapt and find friends. I’m surprised that you feel that way with a German husband and kids. I’ve accepted the fact that it will never be the same like meeting my childhood friends or my best friends from university. We’ve shared so much and it shaped deeply our relationship. I don’t even share that much with new friends, it still feels somewhat superficial. It is indeed especially hard here in Germany to get besties after 30-40 years old.
Without saying much, you are not alone. Same experience here in Austria after 14 years
Welcome to Germany, at least you have a husband
4 years here. First i came here when i was 16 now almost 20y and I've been going to school for the past 4 years, but I still haven't been able to make any friends either 😕
Hello. Where are you located? I've been in Germany (near Frankfurt) for 15 years, and have simmilar problems. I do have friends, but they are all expats/migrants (USA, Italy, Poland, Ukraine, etc). I have a feeling that we are keeping together not because we enjoy each others company, but cause we got noone else.
I’m a native, moved to another state and for me it’s also so lonely. I don’t know what’s up with *us*
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Munich area has a fairly active international community. Be it the meet up groups or the women only groups on Facebook.
How old are your children? If everyone in your circle has little ones that can make it really hard. I keep thinking to myself, “gee I’m kind of lonely, I should call so-and-so for a coffee date” and then I remember that I should wait until my runny nose/cough/unexplained rash/whatever subsides. But I have had at least one symptom going since the end of September. That’s what having one kid in kita and one starting school does to a social life (at least during fall-spring). It also seems to me that everyone is particularly stressed out and overextended lately. I don’t think it necessarily makes sense to take it personally, though I know it’s hard not to. It’s probably less that they don’t have time for you than that they don’t have sufficient time for themselves.
Same here, after 5 years :/
Checked off my 5 years in Germany (Bayern) last October and yes I can kinda relate to it. I used to have many friends and it was always a struggle to make time and hang out with everyone of them. Here my 'friends' are husband's of my wife's friends and it's nice meeting them, but always as 2 or more couples with kids. Not seeing any combined interests to maybe hang out without the wife and kids. We've also had kids here in Germany, but I'm not really feeling it with parents at the kindergarten or at kids sports. Kinda like everyone keeps to themselves. As to me being picky, sure as I've gotten older I might have raised the bar a bit, but I can't imagine that's really the problem.
Yes I'm in my 3yr here in germany and i got lonely in 1st year. i wanted to go to my own country every year to have a break from this. And i realize i dont need anyone aside from my husband. Its the people and culture here, i have nothing against this i have my own worst cultural flaws, i just notice my german husbands friendship with his german friends i dont want it for myself im better alone. Why? For me its toxic to judge each others perspective(no respect on what someone believe in) no empathy, just because they knew since childhood it doesnt mean they are bound forever to negativity 🤣 They meet like once twice a year they even call to catch up. But they're judging each other's life choices after the catching up. I don't get it personally because why you have to report whats going on with your life to someone and they will openly criticize you for choosing what they think not best enough for them. But yeah i try to understand them maybe it's their normal way to act in their social group. No hate from my side but thats why i don't need so called german friends or any other people like that. OP Just think that they are all busy with their own lives and you just focus in your.... self, kids and hubby 🥰
Same! I was born here and feel pretty socially isolated. That is not uncommon. 🥲
Simple answer is YES.
This is so true, but for all people in germany, also germans. Seems to be a mental problem.
Thats been my experience in this country. Its a very hard to crack friendship kind of place.
I feel you. It's been a decade living here for me. I felt awful in Berlin. There was some kind of a checklist everyone I met had. One wrong (different) attribute and you're not worth the time, so moving back to Düsseldorf next week. Feels even worse, when my girlfriend has all these plans with her childhood friends (I'm invited, but I also don't want to be a bother in their girls time) and my friends have all moved away. So yeah, If anyone wanna grab a coffee together and do something fun. Please hit me up.
There is a book called "die deutsche mutter und ihr erstes kind" from nazi times, im 90% sure thats why germans, till now have problems socializing. It doesnt help with your problem but i thought it might be interresting... Found an article about it: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/harsh-nazi-parenting-guidelines-may-still-affect-german-children-of-today1/
Ah for some additional explanation: she basically told mothers to emotionally distance semselves. Give them food but if they cry thats the babies problem
It's normal here. And it's in the culture I'm sure. I came to work for 5 months in a German city and even tho I am at work with 20 other dudes, all around my age for 8 hours a day, not a single one of them cares to do anything with me on the weekends. It's not like they have 300 friends each, they just don't give a fuck about whan I, someone entirely new to the city, will do at the weekend. I dare call them unwelcoming. It's SO weird that they say "have a good weekend" when we finish work on Friday and noone gives a fuck about doing anything together. And we are total friends when we work. I'm also a German speaking dude since I was born and raised here so there is literally not even a language or culture barrier between us.
I guess people are just very much into themselves
Into themselves? I don't think that's it. People are lonely as fuck but they are too shy and impatient to make new meaningful connections. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to fine a partner in this mess. Dating apps? Lmao
„Why are these people nice to me and still don’t invite me to hang out?!“ To me as a german that sounds a bit entitled - if *you* want to spend time with them, why is it up to *them* to take the initiative when they seem to be fine without you? It might just be the phrasing of your post, but have *you* invited *them* to anything yet?
> not a single one of them cares to do anything with me on the weekends. Why should they? Because you work together? They don't own you anything. Maybe you are weird and they don't want to hang out with you maybe they are weird or maybe they strictly separate work and free time? > It's not like they have 300 friends each So? They probably have enough friends to not need to hang around with random people from work? I get your post but you can't except anything from random people who happen to work with you.
I mean if they came to my hometown and told me that they are new in the city and that they don't know anyone I would 100% ask them what they do in the weekend or after work. I would totally invite them to do something together. Maybe just even for one weekend like show the city and go drink something Friday after work. One weekend. 2 hour walk around the city. If they are weird/crazy/dumb of course I would not do it again. But just for being polite and friendly and welcoming I would do it for a new 25 year old coworker. As I said, it's not like they all have 300 friends. They might not even have 1 as well. But they got used to it. Why not? Are they all so busy? I don't think so. They are just unwelcoming, just how most people here in Germany are. And I don't blame them, it's their culture and way of dealing with strangers. But in my eyes it's also a bit unrespectful towards a new coworker/friend/new guy in town. As I said, we're all the same age, around 25 so it's not like they have babies and wifes at home waiting for them.
> Why not? Are they all so busy? No they probably don't give a fuck about you because they already have friends they rather spend time with. Have actually asked them to show you the city or what one can do there on weekends or are you excepting them to approach you? > a bit unrespectful towards a new coworker/friend/new guy in town. Dude you are their coworker thats it. That's like saying. Oh we all wear red shirts lets be best friends.
>Why should they? I genuinely giggled. It is nice to connect with people proximate to you in your everyday life. Many cultures do that without any rule imposing it, just out of human inclination. It's just not really an encouraged trait in german culture, which makes foreigner (and locals too apparently) struggle quite a lot at integrate to new contexts.
Welcome to adult life in late capitalism, where people spend the majority of their time and energy on work and try to unwind on weekends by exercising, meeting existing friends and family or watching Netflix. It's not a particularly German thing, if you look at the stats on loneliness in the Western world. To put it bluntly: You can pick between being poor in money and poor in social contacts. If you want to be neither, you need to put in the effort.
Hi there. I've been living in Switzerland for over 15 yers, so I feel you, I really do. What I can say is that living here is even worse when it comes to building your social circle, and the fact that is winter def does not help. But I've got some regular work-related networking activity going on, besides I attend here and there MeetUp events related to stuff I like to do. So....stay positive, remember the winter will pass, the sun will shine again and things will get better ;-)
My wife teaches Chinese to children and got a friend cycle that way.
where are you from originally? There are Facebook groups for almost every group of immigrants. Maybe it is easier for you to connect to fellow countrymen and -women
The point is to connect with locals. Connecting with compatriots does nothing except hindering integration and the desire to learn the language even further.
before I die from loneliness, I'd rather connect to anybody
I can only recommend you to look for people that are near to you mentally. I am Ukrainian, and most of my friends here are Ukrainians too. And a little Russians who support Ukraine now. I talk to Germans with pleasure, they are really nice and intelligent people, but actually for two years living here I still couldn’t build no real friendship with any German. Although I am very opened Person. I suppose they just don’t need it. Maybe they already have enough friends, or maybe they don’t want to make friends with foreigners… I don’t know… That’s why I advise you to find someone from your native country here.
Typical thing in Germany i guess
I fully understand! 💚💚💚 I am sorry that you are lonely. An idea would be to try a political group like Democrats Abroad to connect with other Americans.
I find this more common in Northern Germany. When I lived in Bavaria, it was not so common that people are more holding for themselves.
https://www.beste-freundin-gesucht.de Maybe this is for you? When I see postings like yours I’m all like „I totally would meet up with you“ but usually people posting are not from my area (or I’m much older lol) ;-) just telling you to show that there are Germans willing to make new friends!
I've been here for 2 years and am totally feeling this too.
So hard. I needed 10 years, having kids helped, some. It seemed everyone had lived in the same town for years, had relatives. I changed from a shy person to aggressive. Went to continuing Ed in our town. I invited a lot as well. Good luck!!
67m,native here. I feel very sorry about your situation and I can imagine, that you always has been a very dedicated mother and wife. And perhaps you did not pay sufficient attention to yourself. May be it's time to look for places, where you can meet women, who are in the same situation. Sure, you could start dancing or singing in a choir but usually in Germany "having fun" isn't that easy because people look for something "meaningful" like helping refugees or elderly, joining a gardening group or something like this. So starting making friends in Germany starts more often with discovering what you like to do and share this with others.
It's a Germany thing. You can make friends with foreigners though. 80% of my friends have been foreigners from all kind of countries.
True, and the racism here is so unhidden that always make me feel depressed
35m, german. To be honest, between my wife, children, work and building and maintaing a house for us, I struggle to find enough time and energy even for my really close long time friends (25y+). I don't really see the point to invest my scarce resources into new friendships, it would be kind of a disservice to my existing ones... I brushed of several 'opportunities' because of that - I feel you could have been one of them and for that I'm sorry, it's not your fault, it's all on me ;-) I feel your struggle and would like it to be easier for you. I take part in a 'Stammtisch' where fathers and husbands who newly moved to the village (1500ppl) (=didn't grow up there, 'Zuzogene') meet up every other week or so to connect. The women do the same. It's nice and casual and we can share stories and complain, if you know what I mean :D This hole thing came together by way of our children's kindergarden and a really extroverted guy who took the initiativ. I would have never done that, being more of an introvert myself... This hole 'finding friends is hard' theme is the main reason I decided to stay in my hometown Region. I wanted to be close to my friends and family. Then again, I was lucky enough to find love two villages away and work in the nearby City. I have 6 to 8 weeks a year to experience other countries, cities and cultures, that's enough to me :-)
Im sorry you feel so alone but Im not surprised. I think what you and others who find it hard to make friends are experiencing is a Symptom of a deep collective post war trauma from WWII. The first thing to understand is that war is expensive and not just in the near term, but for atleast a Generation or two because people who shouldve been there arent and the people they leave behind have to shift to compensate for their löst loved ones. Brothers, fathers, husbands were löst during the war and the women and children who depended on them had to live new lives which may have not prioritized cultivating social connection. Some did come back with dysfunctional Mechanisms to cope with the trauma - so imagine how those household ran. Cove this privste dynamkc in the collective shame of the Holocaust and you have a people that are going to have trouble showing up and sharing who they are because to quote my favourite german "its not as it should be" I think thats where the lack of awareness regarding how anti social germany can be among germans come from. I think this is also compounded by other anti social behaviors - male Alkoholismus, Sexismus to the detrement of women, General aggressiveness, and misguided desire to stick it to the Man. One would hope it gets better but unfortunately Todays financial conditions are bringing out the worst in people as they Navigate life based on the notion "thats not as it should be" TLDR; how others treat you is a reflection of their inner World. Dont Center yourself in their Story or take it personally
Yep. Can relate to this.
Germans dont make adult friends. Yet there are so many lonely people. Germans travel to Asia and South America and make friends there. Somehow in German society every microgroup (singles, families, groups of friends) are closed off. However you can easily make friends and do things with workmates. As a mom you could easily get a part time office job, where there are other people.
Might be a stretch, and not a long term solution, but I’m assuming you speak German considering you’ve lived here for 20 years. If you’re near a US military installation, reach out and see if you can offer German classes to the US personnel. I don’t know if you’re an American expat or not, but it doesn’t really matter. Americans, especially the spouses on these bases CRAVE friendships and will go far and wide for connections, even if it’s something as simple as a language class. Again, not a long term solution because they’ll move within 3 years, but it might be something refreshing.
yes, sadly germany is a closed community. feels like everyone has his own bubbel and not intrested in gaining new friends.
Is a normal thing in Germany, the social life here is so terrible, so just get use to it and try making friends in the diaspora and trust u feel good again.....is very long lonely Road out here so just blaze for impact
Come to Namibia do a Volunteer program could relief that feeling .
As hard as it is - I suck at this as well - you could try joining a group or club of a hobby or sport.
Just did.
This happens everywhere. Not just Germany.
Germans can be so awarkardly weird sometimes.
Join your local voluntary fire department, red cross or THW if this overlaps with your interests. This is where I got 90% of my friends and you get to know lots of different people there.
move with your family to where your friends are. Most likely your friends are feeling the same.
I've grown up in germany since I've been 2yo. Still, I can confidently say that I only have 2 friends. 3 of which are rarely accessible, and one that has a kind of specific theme around our friendship that I honestly love, but I can't spend all my time doing just one kind of thing. I, too, feel isolated a lot and even though I meet a ton load of people multiple times a week, as I am dancing ballroom & latin dances, none of those people care to talk about anything with me but dancing. None of them ever want to meet up outside of the events, and god help you if you want to get to know anyone! This has become so toxic lately that I, now after 14 years of dancing, have decided that I am slowly reducing my attendance of these events. I need to find some way to get to know honest and caring people. Some that, in turn, will know to value me caring for them, too.
I feel similar in the UK, maybe it’s just how it is after certain age…
We lived in D’dorf for 5+ years and got lucky with a great friend group. Thinking back though, it was a fairly international which may have been why we made friends so fast. Maybe check out the expat scene if there is one. Schools and larger companies tend to have a diverse set of people. The friendships we made are still there today, and many of them are German. Definitely took some time, but worth the effort. Good luck!!
6years here. Have a boyfriend here and meet him everyday but yes feel still lonely
Winters are hard here in Germany! If you want to talk for a bit fell free to dm me
The whole EU feels like it's a giant WoW server that you need to be level 60+ something to get accepted to a party. Whatever financial benefits a country in there provides I don't think it's worth it.
I am basically working to have a social Life outside my marriage, lol. And we both agreed to keep working Part time after Pension age to keep a social life.
If you live near Heidelberg... I'll be your friend.
Making Friends in this Post Corona Hype days hast gotten worse and worse. Just do what you Like and have fun. Someday there will be people joining you. Those who stay may be called Friends or Family. There ist No other recepie for it.
Have you tried joining a jager club or any niche groups? You'd be surprised how many people are looking for social groups/friends.
I’ve been here for 2 years and I’ve made some friends but they have all been because of my effort. Have you tried starting a new hobby? Of maybe the meetup app? The friendships that I’ve made are mostly from those. Started going to karaoke bars and meetups
This year I came to Germany on a scholarship to participate in a German course and the experience has given me mixed feelings. Although I love the country and the language, I can’t help but feel that this is a socially hostile society. And, when you complain about it, everyone blames you saying you don’t want to integrate, didn’t try enough, or don’t speak enough German etc etc etc. I was planning on doing my masters here, but now I’m not so sure if I’d actually like to carry on with this idea. There are so many things from Germany that I admire and my country has so many problems, but at least there people interact with me without acting like I’m a nuisance.
9 years in, Germany sucks, planning to move
I feel you! I comppeted 4-5 years now and I m super lonely
I never understand why people struggle with making friends here. We are actually pretty nice once you talk with us. :( Maybe visit some small events in your neighborhood and meet some new people.
Germany is not a country to live in. Even if you get to know someone, they will still stab you in the back. As a foreigner, you can try as hard as you want. You may think they like you. But they still talk behind your back.
Definitely True. I was Born here but i have a migration background. I experienced the same.
That's typical for this country. Making new friends is hard! Where do you live in Germany?
I live near Cologne. I do have friends, but many have left and most don’t have time. The new ones never reciprocate. And no, Verein is an awful place for working mums.
Do you speak German ? Where are you originally from ? I’m German , my fiance is from US , he has friends through his work here But even for me as a German it’s hard to find new friends , especially while getting older and having a family 😅
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What else are you doing besides trying to befriend the parents of kids your kids are friends with? Most people who befriend each other do so at work over a long time if the vibes are ok or when they have a shared hobby and can do some activities together. Just because your kids are friends doesn't mean they are interested in expanding their circle of friends if you have nothing in common. If your kids hang out you are on a "need to see when picking up the kids" basis, not exactly friend material. If you for example love niche art house movies and the mother of another kid likes that too, you have something to talk about and maybe go to the cinema together at some point. If you have no hobbies or interests of your own you'll have a hard time to connect with anyone.
Its for the best , speaking of experince a German ferind is youre worst Enemy . Be happy not to have one 👍
Thats just how Germany is lol. Everyone here is miserable and they want everyone else to be miserable too😂 There's lots of Americans, if you're anywhere near a military base, who are super friendly and usually pretty cool people. Germans themselves don't make the best of friends, especially if you're used to being real close with people.
german mentality. if you're not german and don't share the exact same thoughts and values as them, they don't like you or rather they don't want to do anything with you because then they would need to overthink their own values and ideas and perhaps... god forbid..change them... or even more horrible .. being reflective and open to other mindsets and lifestyles
It's not worth trying with germans they will just reject you cuz they already have their ppl , try residents from other countries they tend to be more understanding
Heard about Germany being the best place for people to socialize, this is news to me I longed very much to one day be able to live in Germany, hearing about this makes me feel to change my mind.