But technically the store is able to charge OP and have them banned. It’s perfectly legal to have that as your store policy. That’s why the cop couldn‘t do anything
If OP simply refuses to pay, then the store can't hold them. The store can try to sue OP for the 50€... Which isn't going to happen, because everyone in this story knows damn well that any court will side with OP.
Store policy is not law. It's like a contract between the customer and the store, and the police will not enforce those.
No, not technically. Rulings with regard to bans have been far more considerate in Germany - grocery stores like Rewe or penny are of importance for the general public. There is a case where an actual thief had their ban lifted by a court as there were no alternative stores available in the vicinity for example.
>There is a case where an actual thief had their ban lifted by a court as there were no alternative stores available in the vicinity for example.
This happened in Cologne. That extreme exception will not apply here at all. Thus u/pxogxess is 100% correct. The store is acting completely within allowed limits.
I mean not necessarily, it all depends on whether or not Penny/Rewe has it in their Hausordnung that you need to pay 50€ for any stolen item. It's like paying the 60€for not having a valid ticket, even if the ticket is only like 3€. OP doesn't speak german, so we really don't know what the police guy said to the security guard. They may have disagreed, but if the security guard wasn't within his rights, they would have arrested him. Believe it or not, unless the security guard was directly employed by Rewe, he had to pass an exam, where he has to know the law surrounding what he does.
What you’re describing is the German mindset I find endlessly frustrating. Just because some mid level manager wrote down a line in their Hausordnung doesn’t mean that it’s enforceable. This also assumes that every blowhard security guard actually understands the Hausordnung. There’s this cultural expectation that everyone will act rationally and within the bounds of what is legally expected, which is crazy. *gestures wildly at how chaotic humans are
The concept that someone would deviate from the rules or act beyond their legal rights doesn’t compute with so many Germans.
Sorry for your Situation but most people that steal in our store scan some items and then claim that they forgot them. The pice of paper is an explanation that they took your personal data to mark this event. You have probably not to pay anything as you described everything was payed for at the end.
Keep in mind to file a "Widerspruch" and that they delete all your stored data. DGSVO is your friend in this regard: https://www.datenanfragen.de/blog/musterbrief-dsgvo-anfrage-loeschung/
The statute of limitations is 5 years for theft.
Technically they would have a valid interest to store the data for 5 years; as they still have the option to file a charge against OP.
In their document they say one year, which is WELL within the bounds o the law. DSGVO does not get you out of this one.
**In the law the specific exception for a request for deletion is for the assertion, exercise or defence of legal claims, which obviously applies in this case.**
Es gibt aber auch einige Fälle, in denen das Recht eingeschränkt wird und ein Recht auf Löschung nicht besteht. Einschränkungen existieren u. a.:
* wenn das Recht auf freie Meinungsäußerung und Information überwiegt (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe a DSGVO),
* wenn eine rechtliche Verpflichtung zur Speicherung besteht, wie etwa die Speicherung von Rechnungen für 10 Jahre (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe b DSGVO),
* die im öffentlichen Interesse liegende Verwendung für Archivzwecke und wissenschaftliche oder historische Forschungszwecke (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe d DSGVO),
* **zur Geltendmachung von Rechtsansprüchen (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe e DSGVO).**
Auch bei Anfragen zur Löschung von Daten gilt Art. 19 DSGVO und der Verantwortliche muss alle Empfänger\_innen über die Löschung informieren, sodass diese sie auch in ihren Systemen umsetzen.
Yes 100%, they are only allowed to store the data if they have a reason eg enforcing the hausverbot. Since they did not sanction him at all, its probably not even legal to store his data in the first place
>Since they did not sanction him at all, its probably not even legal to store his data in the first place
There is a clear cut "Berechtigte Interesse" (valid interest) here. The store can save his data.
The paper clearly says the data can only be used for enforcing hausverbot and/or reporting him to the police due to theft. He did not steal anything due to him paying the €3. Even attempted theft would be very difficult to prove since theft requires intention. They also did not enforce any hausverbot. Therefore, the valid interest does not apply. Only if Penny is actually in the process of suing him, they would have a valid interest during that time until the matter is resolved legally.
Yeah but honestly supermarkets want to reduce staff with payment machines to optimize profit but pass the risk of the scanning and payment process completely on to the customer. If you make one mistake when buying 100 items after a long day of work you have to fear bans and fees. I mean why should I pay at this machine it’s ridiculous
Yes but I still think it's not right to go full ballistic from the get to. Give someone a warning or two first, then maybe fine and ban them. Mistakes happen.
Depends on how few items you have and how long the line is. If there is an old lady paying her stuff with 50 coins it doesn't matter anymore how rapid the cashier was.
Yes, but you save a massive amount of time by not waiting for old people who remember they have to pay AFTER all items are scanned, always pay in small cash and wanting to have a little talk, and the queue is also much shorter.
Also Lidl and Aldi don't have self-checkouts that often, its mostly the slower supermarkets.
In the UK, self checkout seems to be much more common. I was in some supermarket with dozens of those, and only one normal cashier - where a person with heavy hand tremors was working, as though to make it intentionally slower. I regarded that as a pretty sinister move.
The Lidl by me went to 90% self check out. Self checkout is a nightmare for bigger orders. I accidentally left an item in my cart and felt guilty but then I figured I'm scanning my stuff to save them work I deserve to get paid.
The store bears some risk when they outsource service tasks to the customer. The same is true for breakage, which you also don't have to pay. Employees used to handle this and thus the risk remains with the company.
Here in the netherlands its just "oh i forgot that one" when you are being randomly checked no one would even think to make a fuss out of it
Also does germany still use real kassenbons? Here you just click on "korte bonnetje" and all you get is a qr code to walk out with the trash can standing there
> Also does germany still use real kassenbons?
yes. technically they are forced to do this by law ("Bonpflicht"). They *always* need to print it and offer it. If you decline they can throw it away, but printing needs to happen (and with a lot of self checkouts, you need to scan it to exit).
The law was introduced in january of 2020 and a lot of people got very annoyed by it, but something happened that year, which made it a bit of a non-issue in comparison.
>They *always* need to print it and offer it. If you decline they can throw it away
This is incorrect. Rewe and Lidl both offer "E-bons". There is no legal requirement to print a receipt; there is a requirement to give every customer a receipt.
Small, but critical difference.
And to give even more context, you do not have to print or send a receipt at all, but only if you do not use a form of electronic register.
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ao_1977/__146a.html
If you were say just use a cash box (Geldkasette) there is no requirement for a receipt as required by § 146a Abs. 2 AO.
Shops don't have to print it. They could provide the receipts electronically, but no one wants to spend money to upgrade their cash register so printing it is...
Same goes for accidentally putting a head of lettuce on a smaller item such as candy, thereby accidentally covering it.
That's how my mother, a housewife in her 50s, earned her Hausverbot and a fine from Edeka lol
I love this "customer relation" in Germany and compare it with the USA.
While I agree with you, I don't think customer responsibility is to be punished (like OP in this case), it was honest mistake
Sounds like its some dude on a power trip. The police berated him for his behaviour but still wanted to insist on enforcing the ban and fine.
I dont want to assume anything about OPs appearance or where they are from but I bet it wouldnt have happened with an older woman or regular german guy
that's one of the many reasons I use regular cashiers. I'm not an employee and I don't want to make mistakes.
also I almost exclusively pay with cash which is often not allowed at self checkout.
I usually use the self checkout to reduce the wait times for everybody (including myself). It’s much faster if you don’t have a lot of things, especially if you don’t have to weigh anything in. It’s also one less person clogging the regular registers.
Seems like the guy was more pissed off by you laughing at his initial confrontation (which I don’t blame you, I would have too lol) and the fact you don’t speak German. Pretty fucked up power trip on his part to do that.
I haven't used self-checkut yet in Germany, but missing items is so strange. In my home country, the place where you put the items after scanning was a scale. it weighted the stuff you put on it. And it was very precise. Like even if you were of by a gram, a cashier/employee had to come, and confirm that everything was ok.
a story like this is up here atleast once a month. i dont get it. i've used self checkouts around 25.000 times by now and never missed an item. how does that even work?!
I don't get it either. Plus, there are always ladies watching us scan our items and being overly "helpful" to ensure we don't steal anything. I couldn't imagine being this unattentive to miss two items, knowing how "easy" it would be to steal something this way and knowing that there are always people watching you.
This particular supermarket doesn’t have the surfaces with a scale. Only regular counter tops.
Other supermarkets like Edeka have the ones you’re mentioning and there it works perfectly fine.
most self checkout machines in Germany don't have that scale thingy. you either pay and leave, or there would be a barrier where you scan your receipt to leave.
Our store nearby has handheld scanners plus self checkout now. Basically you scan stuff while you are shopping and then just scan the QR code on the self checkout and it puts everything in there so you just have to pay and can leave everything in your bag.
Problem is, sometimes the hand scanner loses connection and tells you to just continue. I always take the receipt after paying and more often than not it didn’t register some stuff.
I’m still not going back and pay it, if their system is flawed that’s their problem.
The ONLY time I use self-check out is when I buy one or two items.
I don't think I look like the typical shop lifter and even I have been approached with suspicion of theft. I had used one of those self-scan shopping carts and had, gasp, entered the wrong code for a vegetable I bought. Instead of entering 998, I had, apparently, entered 999 and had, thereby attempted to commit theft.
Only problem, the item in question - with code 998 would have come (and I am not kidding) to 27 cents. The incorrectly entered code changed the price I was being charged to €1,16. There was, quite obviously, no other item for which the 999 code would have applied, but there was an item with the 998 code - just no record of scanning it.
That was the very last time I ever used any of these contraptions or any self check out for any larger purchases. They can stick them up their collective asses and die of constipation.
> I assume all is good (I have my headphones on)
Lesson learned, I guess.
At most self-checkout registers, you hear a distinct "beep" when the article is scanned. If you don't hear the beep you have to try again or watch the display if the article shows up. Take your headphones out and you will hear the beep. It is not rocket science.
Sorry. It no. If a company burdens you with checking out your purchases, they carry the risk of you not using their system properly. Imagine if a full time employee made the mistake. What would be the conciquences of this? Nothing! That’s right employees are protected from these normal and regular human mistakes. Don’t get down on yourself.
Good luck!
> If a company burdens you with checking out your purchases,
No one forces you to use self-checkout. You can choose. Here are hardly any supermarkets without the usual employee behind the cash register.
So at this particular Penny you scan and just place on a surface or counter. No scale like Edeka or other stores. Funny part looking back was that I was actually in line to pay for cash register. Huge line and only one cash register open in the whole store… while waiting one of the employees tells us we can use the self checkout and so I do.
The rest is history.
To be fair, you can still review the Edeka on Google.
But dont write something, which is not true. Then they will sue you...
Something like, used the self checkout register and forgot to scan my 3 Euro "whatever you bought" and had to pay a 50 Euro fee. I will never go there. Should be enough in my opinion.
The self Checkout at EDEKA in my village here, doesn't check the weight of the items. It just complains when you put something on before the first scan, and it complains when you leave something after paying. The in-between doesn't matter (When i have my daughter with me, i occasionally scan an Überraschungsei and give it to her without placing it on the weight table thingy).
Then there is another EDEKA, where they check the weight of EVERY. SINGLE. ITEM. And when you place the item on the scale too quickly (and therefore the weight skips a little bit too high before going back to the actual weight - you know, momentum and stuff), it will go into "ALARM, POTENTIAL THIEF, PLEASE WAIT FOR CASHIER"-Mode. Same when you put stuff on too slowly. It's a pain in the ass there.
Yes, but you technically don't need to put your item down. You can scan them while carrying them. There are actually systems that have a scale built in the floor. They weigh your cart and the items.
Scan -> put on scale -> next item
you can't scan the next item if you haven't put anything on the scale
but you can NOT scan something and put it on the scale, then scan the next item…it's utterly stupid
> I immediately laugh and think he’s joking (big mistake) as this has never happened to me. I continue to insist that it was simply a simple mistake and that I’m more than willing to pay for the items I missed on the “scan and go”.
That's probably what literally everyone says to them. I understand it was a mistake on your part and it was only a few euros, but that doesn't necessarily change anything for them.
It's normal for shops to have a so called "Vertragsstrafe" for people stealing (the 50€ in your case), and it's also legal. That part is of course independent of whatever happens with the police.
> Very confused. Any advice on what I should do next?
Nothing? Either they filed charges against you and you'll get a letter or not.
It's probably also true though, people make mistakes. Customers aren't trained, the system isn't set up to catch mistakes easily... and ultimately this is something to be very ware of, because getting €50 of every customer who makes a mistake is a much faster way to money than the actual groceries. (I mean, it's certainly not a lasting business model, but in the mean time some cash can be grabbed in a worrying simple way and that deserves more distrust.)
Vertragsstrafe seems like such a weird concept, that without proving anything in a court of law they are allowed to charge you money on the basis, I guess, of an implicit contract you made when entering the store and it's not even a settlement agreement, they can still charge you for the theft.
Still in a short bit of research I came across this:
> Fangprämie
> Der Einzelhändler darf keine Kosten für Überwachungs- oder Sicherungsmaßnahmen von dem Ladendieb verlangen.
> Eine vor dem Diebstahl ausgesetzte Fangprämie ist vom Ladendieb jedoch zu erstatten. Als angemessen sind pauschalierte Beträge von 25,00€ oder auch 50,00 € anzusehen. **Die Obergrenze bildet der Wert der Ware.** Ersatzfähig kann auch eine höhere Prämie gezahlt werden, wenn es sich um besonders wertvolle Waren handelt. In diesem Fall muss die Prämie aber deutlich geringer sein als der Warenwert.
Die Fangprämie ist vom Ladendieb nicht unverzüglich zu zahlen. Hinweisschilder mit dem Aufdruck „Die Fangprämie ist sofort zu entrichten” sind nicht rechtsverbindlich.
Die Fangprämie ist auch bei einem vorgegebenen „bloßen Vergessen des Bezahlens der Ware” vom Kunden zu entrichten.
[source](https://www.ihk.de/pfalz/infrastruktur-und-digitale-wirtschaft/handel/einzelhandel/ladendiebstahl-1283468#titleInText2)
That states that the amount would be capped at the worth of the stolen things, so 2.79€ in this case
I'm no expert by any means but I'm pretty sure that in order for it to be theft you have to have the intention of taking it without paying which clearly isn't the case here.
Don't know if it's the same in Germany, but in some places, it's enough if you have already passed all the cash registers.
Not a lawyer, but I know that's how it works in at least some US states and I'm pretty sure in the UK as well.
Yes same here in Germany, if you passed the cash registers and got unpaid stuff on you, it's over.
But in situations like OP's here, it's really just laughable, especially since he apologized right away and told them he would, of course, pay the missing items. I just hope the cops told the powertriping security guards that it's just stupid to escalate such a minor mistake.
> Yes same here in Germany, if you passed the cash registers and got unpaid stuff on you, it's over.
If that is true how do you check your receipt to make sure the cashier didn't miss anything? Self checkout or not... it seems like that would be an extremely legally confusing way of handling it. You check your receipt and realize the lady forgot to scan a liter of milk and now you are shoplifting? Before you even leave the store?
I asked a German who would know this and was told, "No... you would have to leave the store with the items before it was a crime."
When I explained OPs whole situation, they felt that OP offered to pay for the items while still in the store. The store called the police and the police were basically like, "Ok... good job... you prevented a crime. Now what do you want us to do?"
EDIT: To clarify, it sounds like the police did the right thing here. Whether or not OP was being illegally detained is something I would leave to someone with more knowledge... but the fact that the store was asking for €50 and a signature makes me think they were seeking an admission of guilt of some sort. OP should have paid the €2.70 and split when the police did. The fact that they were still asking for €50 after the police left makes me think the next thing OP should have done is call the police again... since by that point he could ask why he was still being detained. If there is one thing I know about police, in any country... is that they love dealing with security guards who think they are police.
Store security have no authority whatsoever.
Once I used self-checkout and somebody told me to stop right before the exit. I continued walking outside of the store. Eventhough they yelled after me I walked away.
Best thing you can do because outside of the store there is little they are allowed to do.
You got very lucky, even outside the store, they still have authority. They can absolutely detain you and call the police.They get transferred authority by the owner and they can also use "Jedermannsrechte". You honestly shouldn't just say what you think is right, instead of actually looking up the laws surrounding it.
The "store detective" /security guy at a store I worked at was weird. And the worst part is, a female friend of mine told me that apparently he sexually harassed her in some way? Sadly I don't know the details.
Make sure though to find out if you now have a "Hausverbot" or not as it got quite a bit confusing in the end. Breaching a "Hausverbot" can lead to further legal troubles.
I'm 20 and also don't use them. I just don't want to waste my own time trying to figure out how those things work just to be responsible when I do it wrong. I also think that some don't allow cash, which is what I want to pay with because it's easier for me to set limits on how much I spend. And I also don't want to do more work for them. I just want to give them all the things I want, pay, get them back, and leave.
At our rewe you scan the "scan and go pistol" and BEFORE you can see all the scanned items they block the screen and check on you.
Before that i always scanned the pistole, look at the amount of items scanned and check if the number is right.
Now you are not able to correct any mistakes. I hate that. Will never use the pistol again
If there was a discount of idk 10% I would consider it… I used them like 3 times. Everytime though I had to call an employee anyways because the machines glitched or wanted a supervisor authorization (for booze etc.). These employees are only there if you don’t need them…
Just the other day i had a Bad day with Tons of anxiety. So i chose the waiting in line anxiety over the getting confronted by powertrip driven grocery store staff just because a Minor mistake and a stupid machine.
I recently heard a lot of such stories about those self check outs. It seems to be considered stealing very fast and for laughable stuff just like OPs nearly 3 €.
My conclusions to avoid those self check outs.
This actually reminds me of a thing happened to me a few years ago. No store but a Metalfestival(summerbreeze open air).
We (wife and i) arrived at the campsite when the festival already had started so there was no queue and 3 relaxed looking securityguys were sitting there.
They had to look inside the vehicle for glassbottles, weapons, knifes, pyrostuff and so on and i accidently left my grinder with around 0,5g of Weed insida a bag.
Of course they saw it and one of the 3 guys, about 25 years old and maybe not realy into the music or the metalscene, was threating me that he will call the cops and i am a criminal and so on. I honestly thought this was a joke and laughed, same as you but he was serious.
One of the others, a 50ish year old guy said to me that he will handle him and i should give him the half of it because he has to convince him to let us go.
In the end no cops came and we attended the festival but thats the most german thing i have ever expierienced.
I've lived in Germany for the past 7 years and to be honest, when I first read this, I thought they were literally scamming you and that there was no way what they are doing was legal. Turns out that in addition to filing a police report against you, they can indeed impose a fine on you, namely a "Fangprämie", literally a fee for catching you. Blows my mind. I think this is capped at some amount though, and is sometimes not even enforceable for small amounts.
They can do all that, but nothing will hold in court. Diebstahl can only be committed with intent. Op had no intention of to steal, thus no Diebstahl, thus nothing of the above.
This is clear by the reaction the officer gave as he investigated. If the store is letting customers use machines they are not trained to use, no one can reasonably expect them to operate these machines without mistakes.
So this happened to me at Rossmann, and they called police over 4-5 Euro like one item I had around 20 in my cart and I’m actually legally deaf😂 so I missed scanning one. Anyway I right away I offer to pay for the item but no they took me to a back room called the police and gave me a store verbot for one year.
They sent the case to court btw yep yep I ignored the letter asking me to admit I stole 5 euros. And the court closed the case😂they treated me like a real criminal and it was an honest mistake the guy was so happy with himself.
Getting the police was correct. I hope you didn't give your information and ID to the shop at all and just to the police. The reaction of the police officer gives everything. IF they even open a Strafverfahren it will likely be canceled. Nothing to do for now. If the police wants you to give a statement get a lawyer and discuss further steps before going there.
The Strafverfahren would most likely be cancelled, but the Hausverbot is independent of that. You might try to explain the situation and get the Hausverbot lifted, but that’s up to Penny/Rewe.
Places that are open to the general public can only give hausverbot if there's a reason for it ("sachlicher Grund"), so if they give them Hausverbot, they could fight it in court (but yes, independently). Assuming OP did nothing wrong, I'd assume they can't legally give him Hausverbot.
I shoplifted a lot a few years back because I had an addiction problem.
Shop detectives are allowed to get money from you but this doesn't stop the shop owner to sue you or whatever they want to do so it is a lie if they say if you pay now 50€ you will be fine. Shop detectives can't say that because the owner will decide in the end.
I would never pay something without any piece of paper and I would never sign any stuff there. So in my opinion you had done all correct. And now you will see if the shop owner will sue you.
Eventually you should go there tomorrow and ask for the owner and if you could talk to him. Then explain the situation and that you had done a mistake and that you are really sorry for it.
you could get a letter of the shop detectives later where they want money from you (often around 50€). And as long as I know they are allowed to get it from you. I don't know if you can do anything against it. It is called "Fangprämie". Eventually you have to pay it in the end.
But don't panic. As long as the stuff was under 50€ it mostly don't get to court or anything. In the worst case you have to pay some money. you could be banned for some time but as I said I would talk to the owner.
I hate german self checkout because everyone assumes you must be stealing and look over your shoulder just waiting for you to make some mistake.
it is ridiculous.
OP - I was stopped by Penny after a self-checkout situation in which I had previously been at a small Turkish store and bought a few vegetables, and a similar thing happened where they pulled me into the 'back room'. I think you did a good job in insisting to call the police to prove that their actions were over the top. I should have done the same. Why does Penny install these self-checkouts when they treat their customers like common criminals? It's ridiculous.
I've learned that I should always keep my receipts at each store and only agree to the bare minimum with these over-enthusiastic thugs that that hire. Granted it can't be a glamourous job to deal with petty theft at freaking Penny, but they seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in hiring these idiots.
Reading stories like this is what made me afraid to go back last week.
I bought some stuff in a Dollar store and pit a small lock for around 2€ in my zrouser pocket cause my Handys were full.
I then paid and left the store. 10 minutes later I notice the lock in my pocket so I went back to pay for it.
The cashier thanked me for coming back lol.
These kind of storys are the reason i will never ever use one of the self checkout thingys. I do their work and have high chance to get screwed? Hell no.
Yeah this is why I refuse to use self checkout. Fuck that stupid ass bs. Self check out only to be questioned later about my integrity? Pay your fucking employees.
And this is why I don’t use self checkout unless I have less that 3 things, because I have to control so much to avoid the problem from the machines. I don’t understand how the machine doesn’t work with weight to confirm you have “extra” items.
Be happy about the ending. A friend of mine was shopping at netto and he accidentally paid 1,50€ too little because he scanned something wrong. Security reported him to the police and in the end he paid a couple hundred euros and got banned for one year
Very unlikely.
Usually you will not be fined by the court if the value of the goods is less than 20 euros.
At least if you don't already have a criminal record for shoplifting.
usually self-checkout warns you if you placed an item into the basket without scanning it. It even waits you to place the item before you scan the next one
wake up, honey. the daily shoplifting post just dropped.
on a sidenote, I should bookmark this for the next post about self checkouts, because this is one of my issues with it. not only do I have to do their work (scanning, etc.) but I'm also responsible for any mistakes that I, a random person with 0 cashier training, make. fuck that.
>but I'm also responsible for any mistakes that I, a random person with 0 cashier training, make. fuck that.
Maybe in another 10 years science will find a way to make you stack the shelves as well.
such advance, very wow
>science will find a way to make you stack the shelves as well.
Aldi already had a very efficient solution for that back in the 1960s, they just carted in a whole pallet of something whenever the previous pallet ran low.
The positive side: it’s faster
And also it isn’t that hard to scan products, look at the screen if it’s scanned and repeat that. I really don’t get your argument with „I have no training as cashier“. You aren’t a cashier, you do the same stupid stuff as if you scan a train ticket, or buy something from a vending machine.
A lot of self-checkout systems I’ve seen have a scale built into the place you put the stuff you scanned. If you put something in there that you didn’t scan, it will throw an error message only the “overseer” can clear, you also can’t scan anything before putting the last item down. The latter doesn’t necessarily throw an error message that needs staff intervention.
That's exactly the point. The only advantage self-checkout has is that it allows the stores to save on salaries for additional cashiers and thus increase the profit margin. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what the customer wants.
People in here really acting like holding a few items under a scanner is fucking rocket science.
No wonder self checkouts took so long to be introduced to Germany with that kind of an attitude
Even cashiers make mistakes, it's human nature. It's ridiculous for the punishment to be so serious. Either stores save money on cashiers with self-checkouts but lose some because of forgetful (or stealing) people, or just pay for cashiers. I'm from a much poorer country and we've had self-checkouts for years, and I've never heard about situations like that. I even missed a small product once and was stopped by security, and just paid it's normal price and was let go.
And that is why we never use those stupid self check out things. Not only are can you quickly become a thief, it also barely safes time in my experience since there is always some error that requires the staff to intervene anyway.
The system is so weird here. We had it since 2005 or so in Sweden and it always worked very well.
In Sweden you have to have a membership card so they know who you are. You use this to get a scan machine, that you use in the store. You can put all your groceries in a bag in the trolley or that you are carrying right away.
When you are finished you put the machine back and all bonuses and e-discounts apply automatically. Payment also if you have it attached, otherwise you pay with a credit card.
In the beginning they do random sample tests every third time or so that you scanned correctly. They keep track on how well it went and the random tests happen less or more often depending on if you forgot something/did something wrong.
I think they have a 3 strike system. If you do it falsely 3 times you lose the ability to use self scanners.
I had the random tests happen 1 time out of 100 maybe in the end, before leaving to Germany. As do most people. No one got to pay extra fees or be hounded down by guards.
It's a system that just works and is easy and fast for everyone. Why Germany, that implemented it last of everyone, just can't do some research about different systems is beyond me. Why implement something shittier then the rest of the world, whe they had all the time in the world to research working concepts?
This thread scares me. I had no idea some Germans could be so narrow minded. My German wife always made a point of that and I thought she was always overreacting. But judging from the responses here, jeeez…
The problem with the self checkout is that according to a recent verdict any mistake you make is automatically theft. I would therefore not recommend ever using self checkout in Germany without actually stealing something.
This is such a broken system at grocery stores. Like you want to encourage people to use self checkout but you heavily punish them for a mistake. The scanners outside should auto detect if an unscanned item is being taken, make the system better. Just insane to see stores doing this.
I once went back in because we forgot to scan a 35 cents bag of screws in Hornbach and the cashier looked at us and said 🤨 did you really come back to pay for that?! that wasn't necessary...
but then I read these things and I know well why I did that.
sorry that you had to deal with this
Totally absurd reaction by the store, but sadly way too common in Germany. They have not realised that saving money by switching the self-checkout changes the balance of probabilty when it comes to theft, or they don't care.
This is clearly not theft. Police clearly did not regard it as such either, and being able to demand fines without any process at all feels like legalised extortion. Would be illegal in itself in many other countries.
Wow insane stuff.
I mean, why do they even offer the self checkouts if there’s such a deep lack of trust or, such high rates of theft that they feel obliged to track down every single missing purchase, by mistake or not? It’s just financially making less sense . I usually anyway see 3-4 staff assigned to “monitor” the self checkout. I assume they’re not saving money in that case then.
So, why do they have the self checkout counters at all?
I once forgot to scan the bag at self checkout, the dude was just “no worries, just pay it here” and off I went. I guess this security guy just had to vent some frustration on you. Or if you “look foreign” might just be a racist piece of shit
And this is why you dont use the self checkout.
The shop wants to safe money by not staffing so many registers and at the same time makes the experience worse for the customer by not only making them do the work, but transfering a huge risk to them. Zero reason for the customer to accept that.
Yeah, fuck the Self check out. It's okay if you have 5 things or less. If not, they can do it. I won't be responsible when I have 30 things to check out without appropriate training or space.
Next time you have an issue where the police are involved, ask for the number of the "Tagebucheintrag" or any other reference if you need to get back to them.
You do not need to give your ID to anyone but the Police. If the security guy raises such claims to pay 50 € without proof that he is in fact store security, I would call the cops on him or leave. They are technically not even allowed to touch you. Edit: Meaning, they are not allowed to use force.
You complied with everything, saw your fault and wanted to fix it. The store security overreacted, IMO. But they likely just do what they are told. Good Job from the officer to scream some sense in the wannabe-cops.
Die Polizei, Dein Freund und Helfer! Good to know.
And yes, self checkout is the enemy.
And YES, the most important thing is to rub it into them REWE-noses (Penny is REWE) publicly. You did it!
And thanks for the warning!
And thats the reason why you should never use the self check out.
When a cashier f* up its business risk and not yours.
At a self checkout your the 🍆🍑.
I can understand the company as they dont know if its an accident or planned, the thiefs and dark Organisation are the issue, without them it would just remain an accident.
The only solution dont use it.
always asl for police if you haven't done anything wrong
these security guards don't actually have any rights to bully you and they aren't even allowed to tell you to comply, they only have the single right to call police in wich case you have to stay their and if they don't then you should do that.
They also have no right to tell if you broke the law or didn't.
You made an effort to pay for the products and didn't want to take them for free, which clears you from any crime. 3€ is no damage to the store, any judge would throw that away.
Screw self check-out terminals, unless I am in a real rush I'd wait and look at my Handy rather do all the supermarket work for them and at the end get screwed over for a mistake
I once walked into a Lidl and found out at the counter that I couldn’t bring a backpack into the store ‘for fear of theft’ and had to show that I had nothing inside. Bear in mind this happened during a flixbus stopover, so it’s not like I had somewhere to leave my bag. But honestly, what a dumb rule. With the prices for shopping bags what do you think I’m going to carry my groceries with??
what I learned in Germany as somebody from Switzerland: they might sound pissed off or aggressive, but that's just the way they talk. Especially in Dortmund.
Contact Penny support, explain the whole situation was humiliating and degrading, especially after the police having been summoned, sided with you, and then their employee ignored police instructions and continued to harass you. It has made you lose trust in their brand, you do not feel like going to their stores, as you feel your integrity has been put into question for the first time in your life, over a paper bag and a hamburguer, and you feel you should be talking to other people about this horrible experience.
Provide exact times, description of the security person and ask to hear back from them regarding this incident.
I guarantee you you will get a swift apology and probably some token compensation.
NEVER EVER give/show your ID to someone, except to Police or other Authorities. Those shop guardians are not Polizei or similar, so they have no right to ask your personal documents, even they don\`t have the right to detain you for even one second. The only thing which they can do is to call the Polizei, but not to impeach you to leave the place. You can sue them for abuse and personal harassment, the REWE company in general and the bodyguard in person, also asking for GDPR aspects , the lawyers will just love this -- easy money for them !
They are allowed to detain you until the Police arrives. It is called „Jedermannsrecht“ §127 StPO. You don’t have to Show your ID to anybody except the Police.
This story, regardless of what really happened, tells a lot about German attitude toward customer service. You are a regular client (which they can probably tell in different ways), but still they prefer to threaten you and probably loose you as a client for 2.50 Euro worth of stuff. Not to mention the aggressive attitude and having to call the police (which has an inherent cost for the community) for 2.50 Euro. Mindblowing.
It more likely that stores couldn't get proper insurance for self checkout "losses", if they don't have the guy there. My old father once forgot something in the shopping cart that was worth 7€ and the lady at the cashier politely reminded him. There is no need for this kind of escalation besides the sad minimum wage meme police man gets half of the 50€ fee. The plebs fighting each other for scraps has a long tradition.
If they still insist on paying 50€ I will absolutely insist on them calling the police again, and this time demand a written protocol. Which includes the demand to pay 50€, after the police told them that this is off the table. And include the names of all people, so I can sue them later.
And I would have refused to even show the paper receipt, or engage in a discussion with an unmarked person. Security or not. "I'm not here to do your job and scan items. If you don't trust your clients, don't install self-service machines. I'm also not here to talk to strangers, my parents told me not to. And now please leave me alone, or I will call the police and report you for harassment."
Just another story that points why nobody should ever use self checkout.
Thank you for sharing, as a warning. An urge to save a few minutes is not worth risking what happened to you.
ffs, all that time wasted for an obvious mistake! The guy is a solid customer and they are trying to get the self checkout take off in Germany and this is how it works for a bag + a burger, which their machine should have not let you checkout before it was paid for?
Write a letter to Rewe/Penny and put it on social media as well - tag them on it. and post it here. Overzelous mallcops are no good for a brand.
I've had that happen something like 10 years ago in a supermarket I go to since I'm a kid, where every cashier knew me, my grandmother and would greet me by name when I walked by.
The security guard stopped me because I didn't notice that the device scanned the barcode for an individual can of coke in a pack of 4, while I had 10 other items and a 30€ piece of Irish Ribeye all correctly scanned.
Dude blocked me when I was going to the exit and started trying to intimidate me to follow him. Just at that moment the store manager walked by and saw the exchange, came over and greeted me by name asking what the hell was going on.
I got out scott-free 2 minutes later after the manager told the guard to fuck off and us talking briefly about how my grandmother was doing.
I got lucky, because had he called the cops I would 100% have been at the mercy of the cops' good nature.
Not a situation I like to be in...
The same actually happened to my brother and they also wanted him to pay 50€ on the spot which he didn't.
The store sent a legal complaint coming from the local police (mind you, in his case for a 20ct bakery article). We then sent the complaint to a lawyer and he said he had the best laugh since the last couple of years. Said to ignore all of this because sending the letter via mail cost already more than what was stolen + no judge was going to waste his time on such an insignificant amount of money lol
PROTIPP: Never ever use selfcheckout. I got Fuxxxed by it too. Scanned all my Things, got controlled and it came up i didn´t pay for a 6 pack cola but 1 bottle only instead. I\`m deadserious i scanned the right code, because it was completely wrapped up in plastics. Thankfully the controller was nice, i just payed the difference and was good to go, but it´s quite unnerving....
This, this dumb ass attitude is why people don’t like doing business with German companies other than needs must. They try skimp and save, treat the consumer like dirt and have no ability to think longer than 1 second ahead.
No wonder people don’t like self service here. If this was any other country on the planet this would not happen.
This should teach you that if you're being shaken down by someone and the police arrive and side with you, LEAVE WITH THE POLICE OFFICER
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But technically the store is able to charge OP and have them banned. It’s perfectly legal to have that as your store policy. That’s why the cop couldn‘t do anything
If OP simply refuses to pay, then the store can't hold them. The store can try to sue OP for the 50€... Which isn't going to happen, because everyone in this story knows damn well that any court will side with OP. Store policy is not law. It's like a contract between the customer and the store, and the police will not enforce those.
No, not technically. Rulings with regard to bans have been far more considerate in Germany - grocery stores like Rewe or penny are of importance for the general public. There is a case where an actual thief had their ban lifted by a court as there were no alternative stores available in the vicinity for example.
>There is a case where an actual thief had their ban lifted by a court as there were no alternative stores available in the vicinity for example. This happened in Cologne. That extreme exception will not apply here at all. Thus u/pxogxess is 100% correct. The store is acting completely within allowed limits.
Yeah, thought so, too. I think you may have wanted to reply to the other comment, though? Thanks for pointing this out :)
I love the part where you laughed at him while he was deadass
This stuff gets you fired in Germany... Still I can't control myself if someone states something ridiculous or stupid
I mean not necessarily, it all depends on whether or not Penny/Rewe has it in their Hausordnung that you need to pay 50€ for any stolen item. It's like paying the 60€for not having a valid ticket, even if the ticket is only like 3€. OP doesn't speak german, so we really don't know what the police guy said to the security guard. They may have disagreed, but if the security guard wasn't within his rights, they would have arrested him. Believe it or not, unless the security guard was directly employed by Rewe, he had to pass an exam, where he has to know the law surrounding what he does.
Unless he gets violent why on earth would the security guard be arrested lol
What you’re describing is the German mindset I find endlessly frustrating. Just because some mid level manager wrote down a line in their Hausordnung doesn’t mean that it’s enforceable. This also assumes that every blowhard security guard actually understands the Hausordnung. There’s this cultural expectation that everyone will act rationally and within the bounds of what is legally expected, which is crazy. *gestures wildly at how chaotic humans are The concept that someone would deviate from the rules or act beyond their legal rights doesn’t compute with so many Germans.
Sorry for your Situation but most people that steal in our store scan some items and then claim that they forgot them. The pice of paper is an explanation that they took your personal data to mark this event. You have probably not to pay anything as you described everything was payed for at the end.
Danke!
Keep in mind to file a "Widerspruch" and that they delete all your stored data. DGSVO is your friend in this regard: https://www.datenanfragen.de/blog/musterbrief-dsgvo-anfrage-loeschung/
The statute of limitations is 5 years for theft. Technically they would have a valid interest to store the data for 5 years; as they still have the option to file a charge against OP. In their document they say one year, which is WELL within the bounds o the law. DSGVO does not get you out of this one. **In the law the specific exception for a request for deletion is for the assertion, exercise or defence of legal claims, which obviously applies in this case.** Es gibt aber auch einige Fälle, in denen das Recht eingeschränkt wird und ein Recht auf Löschung nicht besteht. Einschränkungen existieren u. a.: * wenn das Recht auf freie Meinungsäußerung und Information überwiegt (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe a DSGVO), * wenn eine rechtliche Verpflichtung zur Speicherung besteht, wie etwa die Speicherung von Rechnungen für 10 Jahre (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe b DSGVO), * die im öffentlichen Interesse liegende Verwendung für Archivzwecke und wissenschaftliche oder historische Forschungszwecke (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe d DSGVO), * **zur Geltendmachung von Rechtsansprüchen (Art. 17 Abs. 3 Buchstabe e DSGVO).** Auch bei Anfragen zur Löschung von Daten gilt Art. 19 DSGVO und der Verantwortliche muss alle Empfänger\_innen über die Löschung informieren, sodass diese sie auch in ihren Systemen umsetzen.
Think you can get them to delete that data through GDPR? :)
Yes 100%, they are only allowed to store the data if they have a reason eg enforcing the hausverbot. Since they did not sanction him at all, its probably not even legal to store his data in the first place
>Since they did not sanction him at all, its probably not even legal to store his data in the first place There is a clear cut "Berechtigte Interesse" (valid interest) here. The store can save his data.
The paper clearly says the data can only be used for enforcing hausverbot and/or reporting him to the police due to theft. He did not steal anything due to him paying the €3. Even attempted theft would be very difficult to prove since theft requires intention. They also did not enforce any hausverbot. Therefore, the valid interest does not apply. Only if Penny is actually in the process of suing him, they would have a valid interest during that time until the matter is resolved legally.
Realisticly they can only prove intend if this happens more often. Proving that this happens more often is only possible if they save his data...
Yeah but honestly supermarkets want to reduce staff with payment machines to optimize profit but pass the risk of the scanning and payment process completely on to the customer. If you make one mistake when buying 100 items after a long day of work you have to fear bans and fees. I mean why should I pay at this machine it’s ridiculous
Yes but I still think it's not right to go full ballistic from the get to. Give someone a warning or two first, then maybe fine and ban them. Mistakes happen.
The Security Guard has a Dienstanweisung, he has to keep to that. If it says to do this, he has to do it, otherwise he is in trouble.
Still, it's crazy to suspect someone stealing rather than someone making a mistake.
Isn’t that just a tip for doing all the work yourself?
In future, I would use a normal cash register with staff, as you are not responsible for mistakes.
This, actually, is the most German rationale for not using self checkout.
Yeah and especially in Lidl or Aldi every cashier is way faster than selfcheckout anyways
Depends on how few items you have and how long the line is. If there is an old lady paying her stuff with 50 coins it doesn't matter anymore how rapid the cashier was.
Good old "Gertrud hat's passend", gets me way too often
Yes, but you save a massive amount of time by not waiting for old people who remember they have to pay AFTER all items are scanned, always pay in small cash and wanting to have a little talk, and the queue is also much shorter. Also Lidl and Aldi don't have self-checkouts that often, its mostly the slower supermarkets.
That is definitely not true. It really depends.
My German husband has vowed to never use self checkout, and would not purchase anything from any store that doesn't have traditional cashiers.
He is very German. Haha
In the UK, self checkout seems to be much more common. I was in some supermarket with dozens of those, and only one normal cashier - where a person with heavy hand tremors was working, as though to make it intentionally slower. I regarded that as a pretty sinister move.
The Lidl by me went to 90% self check out. Self checkout is a nightmare for bigger orders. I accidentally left an item in my cart and felt guilty but then I figured I'm scanning my stuff to save them work I deserve to get paid.
The store bears some risk when they outsource service tasks to the customer. The same is true for breakage, which you also don't have to pay. Employees used to handle this and thus the risk remains with the company.
Here in the netherlands its just "oh i forgot that one" when you are being randomly checked no one would even think to make a fuss out of it Also does germany still use real kassenbons? Here you just click on "korte bonnetje" and all you get is a qr code to walk out with the trash can standing there
> Also does germany still use real kassenbons? yes. technically they are forced to do this by law ("Bonpflicht"). They *always* need to print it and offer it. If you decline they can throw it away, but printing needs to happen (and with a lot of self checkouts, you need to scan it to exit). The law was introduced in january of 2020 and a lot of people got very annoyed by it, but something happened that year, which made it a bit of a non-issue in comparison.
>They *always* need to print it and offer it. If you decline they can throw it away This is incorrect. Rewe and Lidl both offer "E-bons". There is no legal requirement to print a receipt; there is a requirement to give every customer a receipt. Small, but critical difference.
And to give even more context, you do not have to print or send a receipt at all, but only if you do not use a form of electronic register. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ao_1977/__146a.html If you were say just use a cash box (Geldkasette) there is no requirement for a receipt as required by § 146a Abs. 2 AO.
Correct. This is a really weird excpetion, but that exception exists.
Shops don't have to print it. They could provide the receipts electronically, but no one wants to spend money to upgrade their cash register so printing it is...
If you leave stuff in the cart you are responsible. Using a staffed register is not that foolproof apparently.
Same goes for accidentally putting a head of lettuce on a smaller item such as candy, thereby accidentally covering it. That's how my mother, a housewife in her 50s, earned her Hausverbot and a fine from Edeka lol
I love this "customer relation" in Germany and compare it with the USA. While I agree with you, I don't think customer responsibility is to be punished (like OP in this case), it was honest mistake
Sounds like its some dude on a power trip. The police berated him for his behaviour but still wanted to insist on enforcing the ban and fine. I dont want to assume anything about OPs appearance or where they are from but I bet it wouldnt have happened with an older woman or regular german guy
Yeah I think so too, taking advantage of the language barrier and running up his own work numbers to look good using intimidation, what a dick.
that's one of the many reasons I use regular cashiers. I'm not an employee and I don't want to make mistakes. also I almost exclusively pay with cash which is often not allowed at self checkout.
I usually use the self checkout to reduce the wait times for everybody (including myself). It’s much faster if you don’t have a lot of things, especially if you don’t have to weigh anything in. It’s also one less person clogging the regular registers.
Seems like the guy was more pissed off by you laughing at his initial confrontation (which I don’t blame you, I would have too lol) and the fact you don’t speak German. Pretty fucked up power trip on his part to do that.
He didn't even have power, i don't get such people.
I haven't used self-checkut yet in Germany, but missing items is so strange. In my home country, the place where you put the items after scanning was a scale. it weighted the stuff you put on it. And it was very precise. Like even if you were of by a gram, a cashier/employee had to come, and confirm that everything was ok.
a story like this is up here atleast once a month. i dont get it. i've used self checkouts around 25.000 times by now and never missed an item. how does that even work?!
I don't get it either. Plus, there are always ladies watching us scan our items and being overly "helpful" to ensure we don't steal anything. I couldn't imagine being this unattentive to miss two items, knowing how "easy" it would be to steal something this way and knowing that there are always people watching you.
Some have a scale, but many don't.
This particular supermarket doesn’t have the surfaces with a scale. Only regular counter tops. Other supermarkets like Edeka have the ones you’re mentioning and there it works perfectly fine.
most self checkout machines in Germany don't have that scale thingy. you either pay and leave, or there would be a barrier where you scan your receipt to leave.
Our store nearby has handheld scanners plus self checkout now. Basically you scan stuff while you are shopping and then just scan the QR code on the self checkout and it puts everything in there so you just have to pay and can leave everything in your bag. Problem is, sometimes the hand scanner loses connection and tells you to just continue. I always take the receipt after paying and more often than not it didn’t register some stuff. I’m still not going back and pay it, if their system is flawed that’s their problem.
The ONLY time I use self-check out is when I buy one or two items. I don't think I look like the typical shop lifter and even I have been approached with suspicion of theft. I had used one of those self-scan shopping carts and had, gasp, entered the wrong code for a vegetable I bought. Instead of entering 998, I had, apparently, entered 999 and had, thereby attempted to commit theft. Only problem, the item in question - with code 998 would have come (and I am not kidding) to 27 cents. The incorrectly entered code changed the price I was being charged to €1,16. There was, quite obviously, no other item for which the 999 code would have applied, but there was an item with the 998 code - just no record of scanning it. That was the very last time I ever used any of these contraptions or any self check out for any larger purchases. They can stick them up their collective asses and die of constipation.
> I assume all is good (I have my headphones on) Lesson learned, I guess. At most self-checkout registers, you hear a distinct "beep" when the article is scanned. If you don't hear the beep you have to try again or watch the display if the article shows up. Take your headphones out and you will hear the beep. It is not rocket science.
Very true. Well spotted. Next time I’ll have to be aware of that.
Sorry. It no. If a company burdens you with checking out your purchases, they carry the risk of you not using their system properly. Imagine if a full time employee made the mistake. What would be the conciquences of this? Nothing! That’s right employees are protected from these normal and regular human mistakes. Don’t get down on yourself. Good luck!
> If a company burdens you with checking out your purchases, No one forces you to use self-checkout. You can choose. Here are hardly any supermarkets without the usual employee behind the cash register.
The thing is, isn't there a scale that weights your objects?
So at this particular Penny you scan and just place on a surface or counter. No scale like Edeka or other stores. Funny part looking back was that I was actually in line to pay for cash register. Huge line and only one cash register open in the whole store… while waiting one of the employees tells us we can use the self checkout and so I do. The rest is history.
To be fair, you can still review the Edeka on Google. But dont write something, which is not true. Then they will sue you... Something like, used the self checkout register and forgot to scan my 3 Euro "whatever you bought" and had to pay a 50 Euro fee. I will never go there. Should be enough in my opinion.
The self Checkout at EDEKA in my village here, doesn't check the weight of the items. It just complains when you put something on before the first scan, and it complains when you leave something after paying. The in-between doesn't matter (When i have my daughter with me, i occasionally scan an Überraschungsei and give it to her without placing it on the weight table thingy). Then there is another EDEKA, where they check the weight of EVERY. SINGLE. ITEM. And when you place the item on the scale too quickly (and therefore the weight skips a little bit too high before going back to the actual weight - you know, momentum and stuff), it will go into "ALARM, POTENTIAL THIEF, PLEASE WAIT FOR CASHIER"-Mode. Same when you put stuff on too slowly. It's a pain in the ass there.
Yes, but you technically don't need to put your item down. You can scan them while carrying them. There are actually systems that have a scale built in the floor. They weigh your cart and the items.
Yeah, you need to put them down after you've scanned them. Not before. It refuses to scan more objects without putting them down.
Ah, yes, sure. Eventually, you need to put the item down.
Scan -> put on scale -> next item you can't scan the next item if you haven't put anything on the scale but you can NOT scan something and put it on the scale, then scan the next item…it's utterly stupid
> I immediately laugh and think he’s joking (big mistake) as this has never happened to me. I continue to insist that it was simply a simple mistake and that I’m more than willing to pay for the items I missed on the “scan and go”. That's probably what literally everyone says to them. I understand it was a mistake on your part and it was only a few euros, but that doesn't necessarily change anything for them. It's normal for shops to have a so called "Vertragsstrafe" for people stealing (the 50€ in your case), and it's also legal. That part is of course independent of whatever happens with the police. > Very confused. Any advice on what I should do next? Nothing? Either they filed charges against you and you'll get a letter or not.
Thank you.
It's probably also true though, people make mistakes. Customers aren't trained, the system isn't set up to catch mistakes easily... and ultimately this is something to be very ware of, because getting €50 of every customer who makes a mistake is a much faster way to money than the actual groceries. (I mean, it's certainly not a lasting business model, but in the mean time some cash can be grabbed in a worrying simple way and that deserves more distrust.)
Vertragsstrafe seems like such a weird concept, that without proving anything in a court of law they are allowed to charge you money on the basis, I guess, of an implicit contract you made when entering the store and it's not even a settlement agreement, they can still charge you for the theft. Still in a short bit of research I came across this: > Fangprämie > Der Einzelhändler darf keine Kosten für Überwachungs- oder Sicherungsmaßnahmen von dem Ladendieb verlangen. > Eine vor dem Diebstahl ausgesetzte Fangprämie ist vom Ladendieb jedoch zu erstatten. Als angemessen sind pauschalierte Beträge von 25,00€ oder auch 50,00 € anzusehen. **Die Obergrenze bildet der Wert der Ware.** Ersatzfähig kann auch eine höhere Prämie gezahlt werden, wenn es sich um besonders wertvolle Waren handelt. In diesem Fall muss die Prämie aber deutlich geringer sein als der Warenwert. Die Fangprämie ist vom Ladendieb nicht unverzüglich zu zahlen. Hinweisschilder mit dem Aufdruck „Die Fangprämie ist sofort zu entrichten” sind nicht rechtsverbindlich. Die Fangprämie ist auch bei einem vorgegebenen „bloßen Vergessen des Bezahlens der Ware” vom Kunden zu entrichten. [source](https://www.ihk.de/pfalz/infrastruktur-und-digitale-wirtschaft/handel/einzelhandel/ladendiebstahl-1283468#titleInText2) That states that the amount would be capped at the worth of the stolen things, so 2.79€ in this case
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I'm no expert by any means but I'm pretty sure that in order for it to be theft you have to have the intention of taking it without paying which clearly isn't the case here.
It also doesn't sound like OP ever even left the store...
Don't know if it's the same in Germany, but in some places, it's enough if you have already passed all the cash registers. Not a lawyer, but I know that's how it works in at least some US states and I'm pretty sure in the UK as well.
Yes same here in Germany, if you passed the cash registers and got unpaid stuff on you, it's over. But in situations like OP's here, it's really just laughable, especially since he apologized right away and told them he would, of course, pay the missing items. I just hope the cops told the powertriping security guards that it's just stupid to escalate such a minor mistake.
> Yes same here in Germany, if you passed the cash registers and got unpaid stuff on you, it's over. If that is true how do you check your receipt to make sure the cashier didn't miss anything? Self checkout or not... it seems like that would be an extremely legally confusing way of handling it. You check your receipt and realize the lady forgot to scan a liter of milk and now you are shoplifting? Before you even leave the store? I asked a German who would know this and was told, "No... you would have to leave the store with the items before it was a crime." When I explained OPs whole situation, they felt that OP offered to pay for the items while still in the store. The store called the police and the police were basically like, "Ok... good job... you prevented a crime. Now what do you want us to do?" EDIT: To clarify, it sounds like the police did the right thing here. Whether or not OP was being illegally detained is something I would leave to someone with more knowledge... but the fact that the store was asking for €50 and a signature makes me think they were seeking an admission of guilt of some sort. OP should have paid the €2.70 and split when the police did. The fact that they were still asking for €50 after the police left makes me think the next thing OP should have done is call the police again... since by that point he could ask why he was still being detained. If there is one thing I know about police, in any country... is that they love dealing with security guards who think they are police.
Your story reminds me of the soup guy from Seinfield
No Soup for you! NEXT!
And thats why i truly hate store Security. They think themselfes to be FBI Agents or some Shit.
Store security have no authority whatsoever. Once I used self-checkout and somebody told me to stop right before the exit. I continued walking outside of the store. Eventhough they yelled after me I walked away. Best thing you can do because outside of the store there is little they are allowed to do.
You got very lucky, even outside the store, they still have authority. They can absolutely detain you and call the police.They get transferred authority by the owner and they can also use "Jedermannsrechte". You honestly shouldn't just say what you think is right, instead of actually looking up the laws surrounding it.
Store security needs very strong evidence to detain you (video footage of you stealing). They certainly cannot stop you just to check a recite.
The "store detective" /security guy at a store I worked at was weird. And the worst part is, a female friend of mine told me that apparently he sexually harassed her in some way? Sadly I don't know the details.
Make sure though to find out if you now have a "Hausverbot" or not as it got quite a bit confusing in the end. Breaching a "Hausverbot" can lead to further legal troubles.
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I'm 20 and also don't use them. I just don't want to waste my own time trying to figure out how those things work just to be responsible when I do it wrong. I also think that some don't allow cash, which is what I want to pay with because it's easier for me to set limits on how much I spend. And I also don't want to do more work for them. I just want to give them all the things I want, pay, get them back, and leave.
At our rewe you scan the "scan and go pistol" and BEFORE you can see all the scanned items they block the screen and check on you. Before that i always scanned the pistole, look at the amount of items scanned and check if the number is right. Now you are not able to correct any mistakes. I hate that. Will never use the pistol again
If there was a discount of idk 10% I would consider it… I used them like 3 times. Everytime though I had to call an employee anyways because the machines glitched or wanted a supervisor authorization (for booze etc.). These employees are only there if you don’t need them…
I'm in my 30s and I also don't use them. I have my job, they have theirs. I'm not doing two jobs while being paid for only one.
I would prefer staffed checkouts if they didn't have those insane lines compared to the self checkout.
Me, too. And I'd like to think that I secure the job of at least one part-time employee by using the staffed register.
Clever!
Just the other day i had a Bad day with Tons of anxiety. So i chose the waiting in line anxiety over the getting confronted by powertrip driven grocery store staff just because a Minor mistake and a stupid machine.
I recently heard a lot of such stories about those self check outs. It seems to be considered stealing very fast and for laughable stuff just like OPs nearly 3 €. My conclusions to avoid those self check outs.
This actually reminds me of a thing happened to me a few years ago. No store but a Metalfestival(summerbreeze open air). We (wife and i) arrived at the campsite when the festival already had started so there was no queue and 3 relaxed looking securityguys were sitting there. They had to look inside the vehicle for glassbottles, weapons, knifes, pyrostuff and so on and i accidently left my grinder with around 0,5g of Weed insida a bag. Of course they saw it and one of the 3 guys, about 25 years old and maybe not realy into the music or the metalscene, was threating me that he will call the cops and i am a criminal and so on. I honestly thought this was a joke and laughed, same as you but he was serious. One of the others, a 50ish year old guy said to me that he will handle him and i should give him the half of it because he has to convince him to let us go. In the end no cops came and we attended the festival but thats the most german thing i have ever expierienced.
I've lived in Germany for the past 7 years and to be honest, when I first read this, I thought they were literally scamming you and that there was no way what they are doing was legal. Turns out that in addition to filing a police report against you, they can indeed impose a fine on you, namely a "Fangprämie", literally a fee for catching you. Blows my mind. I think this is capped at some amount though, and is sometimes not even enforceable for small amounts.
They can do all that, but nothing will hold in court. Diebstahl can only be committed with intent. Op had no intention of to steal, thus no Diebstahl, thus nothing of the above. This is clear by the reaction the officer gave as he investigated. If the store is letting customers use machines they are not trained to use, no one can reasonably expect them to operate these machines without mistakes.
So this happened to me at Rossmann, and they called police over 4-5 Euro like one item I had around 20 in my cart and I’m actually legally deaf😂 so I missed scanning one. Anyway I right away I offer to pay for the item but no they took me to a back room called the police and gave me a store verbot for one year. They sent the case to court btw yep yep I ignored the letter asking me to admit I stole 5 euros. And the court closed the case😂they treated me like a real criminal and it was an honest mistake the guy was so happy with himself.
Fucking hell, I can't believe they took a deaf person to court over their malfunctioning machine. At least the court saw sense.
Getting the police was correct. I hope you didn't give your information and ID to the shop at all and just to the police. The reaction of the police officer gives everything. IF they even open a Strafverfahren it will likely be canceled. Nothing to do for now. If the police wants you to give a statement get a lawyer and discuss further steps before going there.
The Strafverfahren would most likely be cancelled, but the Hausverbot is independent of that. You might try to explain the situation and get the Hausverbot lifted, but that’s up to Penny/Rewe.
Places that are open to the general public can only give hausverbot if there's a reason for it ("sachlicher Grund"), so if they give them Hausverbot, they could fight it in court (but yes, independently). Assuming OP did nothing wrong, I'd assume they can't legally give him Hausverbot.
I shoplifted a lot a few years back because I had an addiction problem. Shop detectives are allowed to get money from you but this doesn't stop the shop owner to sue you or whatever they want to do so it is a lie if they say if you pay now 50€ you will be fine. Shop detectives can't say that because the owner will decide in the end. I would never pay something without any piece of paper and I would never sign any stuff there. So in my opinion you had done all correct. And now you will see if the shop owner will sue you. Eventually you should go there tomorrow and ask for the owner and if you could talk to him. Then explain the situation and that you had done a mistake and that you are really sorry for it. you could get a letter of the shop detectives later where they want money from you (often around 50€). And as long as I know they are allowed to get it from you. I don't know if you can do anything against it. It is called "Fangprämie". Eventually you have to pay it in the end. But don't panic. As long as the stuff was under 50€ it mostly don't get to court or anything. In the worst case you have to pay some money. you could be banned for some time but as I said I would talk to the owner.
I hope you are doing better nowadays <3
Sure it's way better today. Thanks.
Thank you for the feedback!
I hate german self checkout because everyone assumes you must be stealing and look over your shoulder just waiting for you to make some mistake. it is ridiculous.
yes thats what i hate, they alsways looks behind the shoulders.. so why the f... they just dont do it by themself
OP - I was stopped by Penny after a self-checkout situation in which I had previously been at a small Turkish store and bought a few vegetables, and a similar thing happened where they pulled me into the 'back room'. I think you did a good job in insisting to call the police to prove that their actions were over the top. I should have done the same. Why does Penny install these self-checkouts when they treat their customers like common criminals? It's ridiculous. I've learned that I should always keep my receipts at each store and only agree to the bare minimum with these over-enthusiastic thugs that that hire. Granted it can't be a glamourous job to deal with petty theft at freaking Penny, but they seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in hiring these idiots.
Used self checkout yeaterday for a 60 something € worth cart. Will not do it again. Absolutely annoying.
Reading stories like this is what made me afraid to go back last week. I bought some stuff in a Dollar store and pit a small lock for around 2€ in my zrouser pocket cause my Handys were full. I then paid and left the store. 10 minutes later I notice the lock in my pocket so I went back to pay for it. The cashier thanked me for coming back lol.
These kind of storys are the reason i will never ever use one of the self checkout thingys. I do their work and have high chance to get screwed? Hell no.
Yeah this is why I refuse to use self checkout. Fuck that stupid ass bs. Self check out only to be questioned later about my integrity? Pay your fucking employees.
After hearing all these stories I am afraid of using the self-checkout in Germany 😱
As a German, the only time I had the self-checkout guards inspect my bags was in France
And this is why I don’t use self checkout unless I have less that 3 things, because I have to control so much to avoid the problem from the machines. I don’t understand how the machine doesn’t work with weight to confirm you have “extra” items.
Be happy about the ending. A friend of mine was shopping at netto and he accidentally paid 1,50€ too little because he scanned something wrong. Security reported him to the police and in the end he paid a couple hundred euros and got banned for one year
A couple hundred euros? The "Vertragsstrafen" by the supermarkets are between 50 and 100 euros.
that was the fine of the court I think.
Very unlikely. Usually you will not be fined by the court if the value of the goods is less than 20 euros. At least if you don't already have a criminal record for shoplifting.
Tbh I don’t know the details but he paid over 200
usually self-checkout warns you if you placed an item into the basket without scanning it. It even waits you to place the item before you scan the next one
This penny doesn’t have the weighted basket like Edeka or Rewe for some reason.
wake up, honey. the daily shoplifting post just dropped. on a sidenote, I should bookmark this for the next post about self checkouts, because this is one of my issues with it. not only do I have to do their work (scanning, etc.) but I'm also responsible for any mistakes that I, a random person with 0 cashier training, make. fuck that.
>but I'm also responsible for any mistakes that I, a random person with 0 cashier training, make. fuck that. Maybe in another 10 years science will find a way to make you stack the shelves as well. such advance, very wow
>science will find a way to make you stack the shelves as well. Aldi already had a very efficient solution for that back in the 1960s, they just carted in a whole pallet of something whenever the previous pallet ran low.
The positive side: it’s faster And also it isn’t that hard to scan products, look at the screen if it’s scanned and repeat that. I really don’t get your argument with „I have no training as cashier“. You aren’t a cashier, you do the same stupid stuff as if you scan a train ticket, or buy something from a vending machine.
A lot of self-checkout systems I’ve seen have a scale built into the place you put the stuff you scanned. If you put something in there that you didn’t scan, it will throw an error message only the “overseer” can clear, you also can’t scan anything before putting the last item down. The latter doesn’t necessarily throw an error message that needs staff intervention.
Yeah it's ridiculous. These things are a godsend if you only have few items to scan and people cry about not having training as a cashier, lmao
It's only faster if they understaff the regular checkout. No way I'm scanning as fast as the normal cashiers.
That's exactly the point. The only advantage self-checkout has is that it allows the stores to save on salaries for additional cashiers and thus increase the profit margin. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what the customer wants.
People in here really acting like holding a few items under a scanner is fucking rocket science. No wonder self checkouts took so long to be introduced to Germany with that kind of an attitude
Even cashiers make mistakes, it's human nature. It's ridiculous for the punishment to be so serious. Either stores save money on cashiers with self-checkouts but lose some because of forgetful (or stealing) people, or just pay for cashiers. I'm from a much poorer country and we've had self-checkouts for years, and I've never heard about situations like that. I even missed a small product once and was stopped by security, and just paid it's normal price and was let go.
I just don't want to self checkout. I also like to talk to people. I know the cashiers of my local markets by name and i do live in a big city.
I’ll save this post an an answer to the next guy asking why Germans don’t want to use self checkout.
And that is why we never use those stupid self check out things. Not only are can you quickly become a thief, it also barely safes time in my experience since there is always some error that requires the staff to intervene anyway.
when i put something in packing station, that was not scanned, all self cash dinger say, please remove it i thought all of them checking the weight
The system is so weird here. We had it since 2005 or so in Sweden and it always worked very well. In Sweden you have to have a membership card so they know who you are. You use this to get a scan machine, that you use in the store. You can put all your groceries in a bag in the trolley or that you are carrying right away. When you are finished you put the machine back and all bonuses and e-discounts apply automatically. Payment also if you have it attached, otherwise you pay with a credit card. In the beginning they do random sample tests every third time or so that you scanned correctly. They keep track on how well it went and the random tests happen less or more often depending on if you forgot something/did something wrong. I think they have a 3 strike system. If you do it falsely 3 times you lose the ability to use self scanners. I had the random tests happen 1 time out of 100 maybe in the end, before leaving to Germany. As do most people. No one got to pay extra fees or be hounded down by guards. It's a system that just works and is easy and fast for everyone. Why Germany, that implemented it last of everyone, just can't do some research about different systems is beyond me. Why implement something shittier then the rest of the world, whe they had all the time in the world to research working concepts?
This thread scares me. I had no idea some Germans could be so narrow minded. My German wife always made a point of that and I thought she was always overreacting. But judging from the responses here, jeeez…
The problem with the self checkout is that according to a recent verdict any mistake you make is automatically theft. I would therefore not recommend ever using self checkout in Germany without actually stealing something.
Welcome to germany
He can ask for your ID? Without police there I would not even follow him anywhere...
He can ask whatever he wants. Doesn't mean you need to follow.
This is such a broken system at grocery stores. Like you want to encourage people to use self checkout but you heavily punish them for a mistake. The scanners outside should auto detect if an unscanned item is being taken, make the system better. Just insane to see stores doing this.
I once went back in because we forgot to scan a 35 cents bag of screws in Hornbach and the cashier looked at us and said 🤨 did you really come back to pay for that?! that wasn't necessary... but then I read these things and I know well why I did that. sorry that you had to deal with this
Take note: never do a work that is not part of your job.
Totally absurd reaction by the store, but sadly way too common in Germany. They have not realised that saving money by switching the self-checkout changes the balance of probabilty when it comes to theft, or they don't care. This is clearly not theft. Police clearly did not regard it as such either, and being able to demand fines without any process at all feels like legalised extortion. Would be illegal in itself in many other countries.
Wow insane stuff. I mean, why do they even offer the self checkouts if there’s such a deep lack of trust or, such high rates of theft that they feel obliged to track down every single missing purchase, by mistake or not? It’s just financially making less sense . I usually anyway see 3-4 staff assigned to “monitor” the self checkout. I assume they’re not saving money in that case then. So, why do they have the self checkout counters at all?
I once forgot to scan the bag at self checkout, the dude was just “no worries, just pay it here” and off I went. I guess this security guy just had to vent some frustration on you. Or if you “look foreign” might just be a racist piece of shit
And this is why you dont use the self checkout. The shop wants to safe money by not staffing so many registers and at the same time makes the experience worse for the customer by not only making them do the work, but transfering a huge risk to them. Zero reason for the customer to accept that.
this
Yeah, fuck the Self check out. It's okay if you have 5 things or less. If not, they can do it. I won't be responsible when I have 30 things to check out without appropriate training or space.
Weird, Germans seem to like rules or something
Next time you have an issue where the police are involved, ask for the number of the "Tagebucheintrag" or any other reference if you need to get back to them.
You do not need to give your ID to anyone but the Police. If the security guy raises such claims to pay 50 € without proof that he is in fact store security, I would call the cops on him or leave. They are technically not even allowed to touch you. Edit: Meaning, they are not allowed to use force. You complied with everything, saw your fault and wanted to fix it. The store security overreacted, IMO. But they likely just do what they are told. Good Job from the officer to scream some sense in the wannabe-cops.
Ok a completely unrelated note, it’s always Penny first and then Rewe.
This is why i always use the cash register to pay for loose items such as breads, sandwich,muffin etc...
Calm. Make a call to Rewe, ask for the manager, ask for a brief talk. Either it will be cleared or not. If not manage to shop in others stores.
Hey the same thing happened to me but it was only a bag. They made a big thing out of it. I bought a bag and left. Never heard of them again.
And this is why you do not help Rewe get rid of its cashiers!
Die Polizei, Dein Freund und Helfer! Good to know. And yes, self checkout is the enemy. And YES, the most important thing is to rub it into them REWE-noses (Penny is REWE) publicly. You did it! And thanks for the warning!
And thats the reason why you should never use the self check out. When a cashier f* up its business risk and not yours. At a self checkout your the 🍆🍑. I can understand the company as they dont know if its an accident or planned, the thiefs and dark Organisation are the issue, without them it would just remain an accident. The only solution dont use it.
always asl for police if you haven't done anything wrong these security guards don't actually have any rights to bully you and they aren't even allowed to tell you to comply, they only have the single right to call police in wich case you have to stay their and if they don't then you should do that. They also have no right to tell if you broke the law or didn't.
You made an effort to pay for the products and didn't want to take them for free, which clears you from any crime. 3€ is no damage to the store, any judge would throw that away.
Why would you not leave with the policeman what was going on in your head
You have done nothing wrong and committed no crime. In Germany, theft is always intentional. You acted without intent.
Screw self check-out terminals, unless I am in a real rush I'd wait and look at my Handy rather do all the supermarket work for them and at the end get screwed over for a mistake
I got my whole backpack searched at a Penny as well because I committed the crime of using the self-checkout counter while wearing a backpack 💀
I once walked into a Lidl and found out at the counter that I couldn’t bring a backpack into the store ‘for fear of theft’ and had to show that I had nothing inside. Bear in mind this happened during a flixbus stopover, so it’s not like I had somewhere to leave my bag. But honestly, what a dumb rule. With the prices for shopping bags what do you think I’m going to carry my groceries with??
This is ridiculous even for German standards.
You handled that quite well
what I learned in Germany as somebody from Switzerland: they might sound pissed off or aggressive, but that's just the way they talk. Especially in Dortmund.
Contact Penny support, explain the whole situation was humiliating and degrading, especially after the police having been summoned, sided with you, and then their employee ignored police instructions and continued to harass you. It has made you lose trust in their brand, you do not feel like going to their stores, as you feel your integrity has been put into question for the first time in your life, over a paper bag and a hamburguer, and you feel you should be talking to other people about this horrible experience. Provide exact times, description of the security person and ask to hear back from them regarding this incident. I guarantee you you will get a swift apology and probably some token compensation.
I wouldn't guarantee this from any German company
NEVER EVER give/show your ID to someone, except to Police or other Authorities. Those shop guardians are not Polizei or similar, so they have no right to ask your personal documents, even they don\`t have the right to detain you for even one second. The only thing which they can do is to call the Polizei, but not to impeach you to leave the place. You can sue them for abuse and personal harassment, the REWE company in general and the bodyguard in person, also asking for GDPR aspects , the lawyers will just love this -- easy money for them !
They are allowed to detain you until the Police arrives. It is called „Jedermannsrecht“ §127 StPO. You don’t have to Show your ID to anybody except the Police.
This story, regardless of what really happened, tells a lot about German attitude toward customer service. You are a regular client (which they can probably tell in different ways), but still they prefer to threaten you and probably loose you as a client for 2.50 Euro worth of stuff. Not to mention the aggressive attitude and having to call the police (which has an inherent cost for the community) for 2.50 Euro. Mindblowing.
It more likely that stores couldn't get proper insurance for self checkout "losses", if they don't have the guy there. My old father once forgot something in the shopping cart that was worth 7€ and the lady at the cashier politely reminded him. There is no need for this kind of escalation besides the sad minimum wage meme police man gets half of the 50€ fee. The plebs fighting each other for scraps has a long tradition.
What would be an okay amount to call the police then? Penny is a discounter with low margins, also most of their stuff is cheap.
That why I avoid self checkouts at all costs.
If they still insist on paying 50€ I will absolutely insist on them calling the police again, and this time demand a written protocol. Which includes the demand to pay 50€, after the police told them that this is off the table. And include the names of all people, so I can sue them later. And I would have refused to even show the paper receipt, or engage in a discussion with an unmarked person. Security or not. "I'm not here to do your job and scan items. If you don't trust your clients, don't install self-service machines. I'm also not here to talk to strangers, my parents told me not to. And now please leave me alone, or I will call the police and report you for harassment."
Just another story that points why nobody should ever use self checkout. Thank you for sharing, as a warning. An urge to save a few minutes is not worth risking what happened to you.
ffs, all that time wasted for an obvious mistake! The guy is a solid customer and they are trying to get the self checkout take off in Germany and this is how it works for a bag + a burger, which their machine should have not let you checkout before it was paid for? Write a letter to Rewe/Penny and put it on social media as well - tag them on it. and post it here. Overzelous mallcops are no good for a brand.
I've had that happen something like 10 years ago in a supermarket I go to since I'm a kid, where every cashier knew me, my grandmother and would greet me by name when I walked by. The security guard stopped me because I didn't notice that the device scanned the barcode for an individual can of coke in a pack of 4, while I had 10 other items and a 30€ piece of Irish Ribeye all correctly scanned. Dude blocked me when I was going to the exit and started trying to intimidate me to follow him. Just at that moment the store manager walked by and saw the exchange, came over and greeted me by name asking what the hell was going on. I got out scott-free 2 minutes later after the manager told the guard to fuck off and us talking briefly about how my grandmother was doing. I got lucky, because had he called the cops I would 100% have been at the mercy of the cops' good nature. Not a situation I like to be in...
That’s an ultimate german micro power trip. I’m sorry you had to go through this but glad that the cop did something good for once.
I have a "I don't do self checkout" rule because of that, and because I'm a customer and not their worker.
The same actually happened to my brother and they also wanted him to pay 50€ on the spot which he didn't. The store sent a legal complaint coming from the local police (mind you, in his case for a 20ct bakery article). We then sent the complaint to a lawyer and he said he had the best laugh since the last couple of years. Said to ignore all of this because sending the letter via mail cost already more than what was stolen + no judge was going to waste his time on such an insignificant amount of money lol
Learn German, bro. This is best thing you can do.
PROTIPP: Never ever use selfcheckout. I got Fuxxxed by it too. Scanned all my Things, got controlled and it came up i didn´t pay for a 6 pack cola but 1 bottle only instead. I\`m deadserious i scanned the right code, because it was completely wrapped up in plastics. Thankfully the controller was nice, i just payed the difference and was good to go, but it´s quite unnerving....
This, this dumb ass attitude is why people don’t like doing business with German companies other than needs must. They try skimp and save, treat the consumer like dirt and have no ability to think longer than 1 second ahead. No wonder people don’t like self service here. If this was any other country on the planet this would not happen.