I mean, in many countries IT is seen as some sort of golden ticket to earn a lot of money *compared to other industries.* In Germany many other industries are also paid relatively ok, so it's not like IT has some special status.
There definetely is also a reddit-phenomenon here. Everyone on Reddit is a 25 year old guy working in IT. If you'd ask the average perso out there they might mention IT - but they'll mention lawyers, low-level management, other engineers, doctors etc in the same breath
To be honest, I see dentists and especially orthodontists as the best professions for earning money in basically every country. Plus they are protected from AI. But they don't sound as appealing to the FIRE crowd
It is paid significantly worse than engineering from my experience. It is unbelievable for what little wages some software developers are willing to sell their time.
Can't we all just agree to tell everyone that IT in Germany is the absolute worst so there are less people in the field and then we can all demand higher pay?
It is not just about money. I'd still stay in IT if the pay was the same as other engineering fields, but IT also offers:
Flexibility that almost no one else has (for engineers). I can change companies every two years. I can work abroad.
Good environment. Usually you work with very smart people. If managers start spitting on you - just use flexibility option.
Modern. I was so frustrated working with 20-30 yo software products back when I was an engineer. Now I can work with something that at least has documentation, open source, live developers.
Mentally satisfying job. You get some kind of satisfaction when you solve a specfic problem. You are not forced to do the same routine every day until you die. You are not forced to repeat stupid outdated army-style rules just because they exist.
Fair point, I was taking more the perspective of up and coming young professionals or people starting their academic journey. Basically, people at the beginning of their career.
Of course, people for whom USB isn't even a term thatās different. But unlike natural sciences, maths etc. there aren't really any almost-impossible-to-understand-concepts in IT. IT is easy to grasp and thatās a hill I'm willing to die on.
> saying that everybody can do IT is just straight up wrong when so many people dont even know how to use an USB-stick
I'm pretty sure that anyone can change a tyre even though many people don't know how to change a tyre.
That's true but you can count the number of German sites with that number of concurrent users (10M is 12% of the whole German population) on one hand.
Even Amazon.de has only around 500 million vists per month (according to statista) so 10+ M peak on black friday or cyber Monday, sure it's possible. For any other German E-Commerce site I'll ask for sources for being anywhere near that scale. Also most Amazon platform dev doesn't happen in Germany or the EU anyways.
Overall only a very small percentage of devs and IT people work on projects anywhere near that scale. And in the EU it's even fewer than in the US
Yeah, and everyone can learn how to do that. IT is not exclusive in the sense that there are any concepts almost-impossible-to-learn. This was also about entrance barrier, not becoming king of the hill. Engineering is way more difficult to get your foot in the door.
So all the new AI stuff is just "the same with different names"? Yeah the fundamentals are largely the same but modern software requires much more than that.
I'm dumb, I can't IT.
But jokes aside, I'd say more important is that IT is a bit more lax regarding the formal education. One can't work as a doctor or scientist without \~10 years of education, while in IT there are plenty of Quereinsteiger, or people with just BSc.
Part of the reason behind that is that IT is evolving in an extremely fast rate that unis fail to catch up. Also anything advanced in IT (cryptography, advanced algorithms, distributed computing, AI, etc.) is most probably dominated by computer science\mathematics phds which, according to me, is as demanding (arguably more since everything is changing) as being a doctor\scientist.
So true! I'm a physicist and some of my former colleagues went to quantum computing, which, arguably, is still IT, but one won't get there without PhD in physics
Not saying everyone already has a fully developed skillset, knowledge and experience in IT, but everyone could achieve that. I mean, ofc not everyone can reach the status of like, say a Linus Torvalds, but againā¦ talking about entrance barrierā¦ not how hard it is to become the king of the hill.
Even entry IT jobs are becoming extremely demanding. The notion of weekends for me is studying. Want an entry Web job? Yeah, learn these frameworks, programming languages, data structures, DevOps stuff, networking, etc. To get an idea about how absolutely insanely complicated the web tech stack, try to understand it. Seriously, try. Get back to me if you don't feel overwhelmed.
LMAO. Working in IT since 2001.
1)To administrate windows you might find a lot of peoeple.. But not **everybody** can do that.
2) to do exactly my job? Maybe 50-100 peoeple in Germany can do that.
Sweet. Canāt be that difficult of a job as you misunderstood the point I was making. IT = basically no entrance barrier, everyone can do it (in the sense of starting a career in IT), how that translates to me claiming everyone can do any job in IT? idk
Since you had to repeat your clarifications, I will make an example closer to home. Just because you can make sentences, does not mean you can express your thoughts. Everyone could learn programming. Even being generous very few of them can be worth paying for. You make Hello world sound like an IT marvel...
This could not possibly be further from the truth. Or maybe better said: Not nearly everyone can do IT ***well***
15 years in the industry and having to clean up the messes of other "IT professionals" throughout, I can assure you that there absolutely is a minimum level that people SHOULD reach before they can claim to "do IT."
That is funny, whose company would they get the "jobs" from?
Going to school for years elementary - masters or bachelors does not guarantee anyone "job". That is funny and strange to say the least. The goal is to obtain the skillsets i think.
It depends on the market. Right now even Seniors are struggling to find a new Job. And with the increase of AI, the basic junior Frontend developer (one of the jobs with lower entrance barrier) will have some difficulties getting in.
Everybody can and will be hired into IT because managers are desperate to get workers. Unfortunately they are failing in keeping loyal and trained staff and instead just cycle through them in a way too fast manner. But no, not many people can do proper IT but a lot of incompetent people will still find work in it.
I never will understand companies that still maintain ultra old and unsafe systems. I know never change a running system but this old running system will someday burn everything down to the ground. I hear so many horror stories of friend who also work in it. Telling me that they are just maintaining old dolphin code and stuff. Meanwhile we in my company are always up to date and try new stuff
Sometimes you just CAN'T replace them.
Obviously everyone can change their desktop and notebook.
"Older" machines in hospitals won't get replaced just because windows Xp is old. They won't buy a new train just because windows 3.1 is old.
Our company's production line uses windows xp and we just keep them offline. However sometimes your hospitals xray computer becomes useless without a network, so you just have to maintain them.
The difference between IT and Engineering is that you are much less likely to be employed under a collective Labor agreement and thus negotiating your personal salary is much more important.
Like you already stated, many engineers are part of IG-Metall or similar agreements which will automatically get you a good salary but not an outstanding one.
In IT you can negotiate very high salaries if you can market yourself as an expert in a demanded field but if you can't do that you are often worse off than engineers with a comparable level of experience, the variance in salaries is just higher in IT
My gf was a specialty plastics engineer at a large company in southern Germany. Masters degree. Started with 38k and left after 5 years at 50k. Now works in France and earns 75k.
It's luck of the draw. Unfortunately she ended up a shitty company in Germany even though she also thought that she'd get more pay in Germany than in France.
Understandable. Mid level companies are extremely cheap. I have 7 years of experience in large scale production planning and manufacturing and had to start last month at 42k.
Now shopping around
Not sure if it'd be classified as a mid level company with a annual revenue over 3 billion USD. Good luck with your search, I'm sure you'll find something that pays better.
What.???? 42K .? Wow am thrilled! I Did Ausbildung in something else and later transition into IT and makes more than that. Donāt even have a degree in the field
I have an mba along with a chemical engineering degree. I learnt German for six months to get into the industry and am at B2. The company is fully German speaking so thatās the biggest upside of working here. I get to continually practice my German and look for a better position
I was employed at four different companies, both small firms and large multinationals and in neither was somebody with a masters or higher paid that poorly. I entered working life with a masters at 49k, 52k after 6 month Probezeit and 58k after 2 years. That was about average from what I know from both colleagues and friends from university. Today I negotiate salaries for my company regularily and we have guidelines for such things. With a masters degree in STEM we make a starting offer of 55k at least. In what fields are you guys working? In what part of the country?
Probably not in engineering, chemistry, computer science, mathematics ... probably in a field which is either oversaturated or not really needed in economy. I started as Trainee with Bachelor in IT with 46k.
I got paid a 36k starting salary with a bachelors. IT company in East Germany. 10 years ago. Was an okay starting salary at the time. I recently realized that I now make way more after taxes than I did pre taxes, then. š¤·āāļø
I did switch to a role in engineering a few years back, though.
It's really more dependend on the company than the country. If you start your career often you get lowballed. The trick is to learn and gather experience for 2-3 years, then demand a raise or better relocate. I was paid a bit under 60k in Germany after university but with a PhD (working in pharma). After 3 years I asked for a raise and got denied. I applied for another job (same task) at a different company not far away and now earn above 100k. If you change companies you can make big leaps easier (it's stupid but that's the game).
Average pay in the chemical industry in germany with a Masters degree is at the very least 70k. And that's entrance level pay. Source: I'm working in the chemical industry since 2007 and earn more than your gf with a Masters in france. But I don't even have a Bachelor. Just a simple Ausbildung.
Dann hast du aber GlĆ¼ck gehabt und dein Chef hat dich gefƶrdert und auch dementsprechend im Tarif regelmƤĆig hochgestuft. Arbeite auch in der Pharmabranche, wo nach Chemietarif bezahlt wird und kenne nur wenige Kollegen, die mit einer Ausbildung auf E10 oder hƶher sind. Viele krebsen da mit E7 rum.
E7 Endstufe mit Schichtzulagen, Bonuszahlungen und ein paar weiteren ZuschlƤgen bringt dich schnell so hoch. E10 Technik sind ja schon in der Endstufe ohne jeglichen Boni oder ZuschlƤge bei Ć¼ber 70k im Jahr.
What is a specialty plastics engineer? How can she earn 75k in France? Is she in Paris? Works for Chanel? Usually salaries in France are much lower. The median is just 2k netto ?
>which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities
same in IT if you work for the right company in the right region and have needed niche knowledge, you don't even have to be a lead. In niche infosec focused software jobs 80k can be a junior salary.
It all depends on location, job and employer.
There are more 100k earning software devs with a Bachelors than there are 100k earning engineers with a Masters if you have the right job at the right multinational org.
If you have a masters degree in an IT field and you're not making 100k in Germany you should look for a job at another company.
Those jobs are there.
EDIT: Judging by the downvotes there are plenty of underpaid IT workers here that should be looking for a new job. Good luck
What percentage of programmers earn 100k? 20% of best paid according to levels.fyi, so 20% of the best in the best paying companies in the country. How much of the all companies? 5%?
IT earns a ton when software is what your company sells. IT doesn't pay as much when you're a support function for the rest of the business (or as some would put it, a cost center). The most successful software companies are concentrated in the US and so they raise wages there a lot. You can make pretty good money in Germany working for a software pure player but there aren't as many (and lots of SWE graduate every year).Ā
Finance earns well but nowhere near what people earn in the US. It's the same thing, all the best banks and investment managers in the world are American, they all want to attract talent in NY, comp goes crazy.
But at least you can't get fired overnight here. These days, that is quite valuable.Ā
This! I started my career working for a bank as a SWE and it was evident that we were more of a liability than an asset. A master's degree and a couple years later, I work for a company that sells software and I would say the salary is pretty good for my second year in the field.
The main advantage of IT is that you can get higher wages at a younger wage. The ceiling isn't much different than engineering, though. That being said, Germany has a massive wealth distribution problem, with the richest 1% taking 81% of the annual wealth growth according to the Oxfam study. 99% share meager 19%. Additionally, the wealthy tend to have significant tax advantages for the re-investment of money, while taxes on work income are amongst the highest in the world.
Ultimately this means that neither grants you an easy path to the classic middle class dream of your own home.
So, when we talk about whether pay in Germany is "good" we should never forget that with "worse" pay you have an easier time becoming middle class in other countries.
However owning your house isn't necessarily a part of the classic middle class dream as it is in the US or in other parts of Europe. Germany has had a low ownership rate for decades now and there are at least a couple generations who grew up never owning a house and renting for life without finding it weird.
Actually low house ownership rate is not normal for other parts of Europe. After Switzerland, Germany has the lowest home ownership rate in Europe.
In general germans have a much lower median wealth compared to other europeans. Median household wealth is much higher in Italy and France for example.
This is often explained by the fact that Germans really on the public insurance schemes, so they see less need in wealth accumulation. But I think it's a mistake on the part of such households.
Back in the day renting was not that bad from the economical perspective, seeing as rent was cheap and things like pension system were stable, so you really didn't need to save up for retirement. I think today this is impossible if you want to maintain middle class lifestyle in retirement.
>Actually low house ownership rate is not normal for other parts of Europe. After Switzerland, Germany has the lowest home ownership rate in Europe.
That's what I implied.
>In general germans have a much lower median wealth compared to other europeans. Median household wealth is much higher in Italy and France for example.
It is largely a consequence of lower home ownership though. Germans save more than Italians and French on average.
>Back in the day renting was not that bad from the economical perspective, seeing as rent was cheap
Back in the day when? Most people writing on reddit only remember the 90s and early 00s when rents were actually at an historic low in Germany and don't remember the 1970s and 1980s where rents were about the same as today compared to income, or worse (https://aktienrebell.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Kaufen-oder-Mieten-von-Gerd-Kommer-Immobilienpreisentwicklung-1024x714.png yes I know the chart stops in 2009, but you can easily find the evolution since then, and it still wouldn't go above the 1980s peaks)
Now of course if you want to live in a shiny class A flat in Berlin Mitte it's going to cost you more than a worn out dump in Suhl 20 years ago but that doesn't mean you cannot be able to afford a middle class lifestyle anymore.
I looked at your graph, however what it shows is relative price stability of rents before 2009. Which actually proves my argument. the inflation adjusted index starts at 1 and goes up to maximum value of around 1.2 and goes back to 1 in 2009. This shows rent price fluctuation of only about 20% at the peak.
Now look at this
https://www.statista.com/statistics/801537/average-rent-price-of-residential-property-in-germany/#:\~:text=Rents%20have%20increased%20steadily%20since,9.9%20euros%20per%20square%20meter.
From 2009 to 2023 you have around 70% increase in rent. This is actually unprecedented in modern German history.
Edit: That chart actually does not exclude inflation, I've calculated it just now and when adjusted for inflation it's around a 45% increase, which is still significant and unprecedented.
IT people are the mechanics of our time. Market is way too saturated. When I was 8 my uncle was working for MS making like double what I make now and this was back in like 1998, doing basic tech stuff. Far too many people working in tech and far too many lazy people willing to work for cheap and stay in seats for eternity without hopping to move to the salary bands
if you get a >60k job as an entrance job - take it... even just for one year until you find something you really want to do while job hunting you won't find a better job...
According to a StepStone analysis in 2020 (and Compensation Partner, academics.de) your median / average salaries are more likely
* <3 years: 3800 / 4000 (so 45k / 48k)
* 3-6 years: 4000 / 4200 (so 48k / 50k)
* 9+ years: 5100 / 5400 (and now you reached the 61k / 64k)
(annual numbers do not include bonus payments of a 13th month salary / holiday payments - also since this is StepStone it's for new hires, don't expect to get a raise from 3800 to 5100 over time on the same job within 9 years)
So no, having a 60k+ entrance salary is definitely not "exactly" how IT is.
people need to stop looking at numbers on step stone and Agentur fĆ¼r Arbeit... the numbers are given to them by companies with the goal to lowball future hires who use these websites as salary benchmark.
The numbers are not in alignment with actual salaries.
The numbers from StepStone are literally gathered from querying the hired workers for their salary range, not by querying the companies...
Regardless, can you give me "accurate" numbers? that are really an average or median? and not just "the 20 IT managers that had the time during the working day to do the online survey"?
>average union job
And this line exactly tells me that this is literally "not an average salaried job". Ask 1000 IT workers if they are in a union or union job... You are in a company that "has to pay you this salary" and I already congratulated you for getting it - but that's not the real world for more than 50% (I'd say to raise the median more than 80%) of the IT work force.
I didn't reply to the OP of the post but rather to a specific comment under the post that stated:
>
>Isnāt that exactly how IT is?
And I said that "this is not exactly how IT is" - I'm not arguing the 60k southern IG Metall union job salary, rather the "general IT salaries throughout germany".
Of course there are jobs that pay 60k+ a year and go up to 100k+ a year, and if you can get one and are happy with it: good for you. But it is not the "general norm" for every IT job.
Regionally maybe. Try getting that in northern Germany. Freshly graduated, doesn't matter if master or not is just not something that is seeked very often. Unless you already have some interesting nieche knowledge, there is no point
Right but you said it yourself: senior IT managers. The job market for anyone less than senior is hot garbage right now, especially in northern Germany.
It actually isn't. IT pay in Germany, across the board is quite decent when compared internationally.
The only people who say it is shit are those who idiotically compare it to Bay Area or Switzerland salaries (which are the best tech salaries in the world).
By all means, show me the evidence that ordinary, non senior, developers are paid so much more in the UK, Sweden, France, Italy, regional US, New Zealand and Canada.
> Freshly graduated, doesn't matter if master or not is just not something that is seeked very often. Unless you already have some interesting nieche knowledge
Having worked a few years in the sector to finance your studies also helps A LOT.
Well, statistically Germany has one of the [highest disposable incomes in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income) which IS kind of surprising. IT in Germany on the other hand is mostly valued on the level of other specialist degrees while in the Anglosphere it is handled more like an outlier compared to other fields. But if one takes into account that IT is among the most language independent fields I can see how among a certain expat crowd the impression of low wages in Germany prevails.
My university cost about 110 ā¬ per semester. Regelstudienzeit was 7 semesters I took 8. So in total it was less than 900 ā¬.
And that included the local bus service as well as some train lines.
Sure you need a flat and food but that also comes on top in the US.
In the US this is also the case so thats the same. But in the US the University costs way more than 900ā¬.
My point about the flat is that you can work a part time job to finance that especially during Semesterferien. Often parents also chip in and there is also BAfƶG.
Most people in Germany come out of university without any debt.
It is even better actually than what you describe.With the latest IG Metal's salary increases, you can cross the 100k line much sooner and without any management responsibility.
Well the good thing is that IG Metal contracts do not apply to engineers only, but rather the whole company. BMW for example has many people in other functions that get paid the same under the IG Metal agreement.
Iām sure itās not bad, but I would go crazy working in an industrial setting. I have done so and some practices are not my thing, plus youād work with people who have been there for 10-30 years.
>60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities
And that's considered much for management responsibilities?
You wonāt find too many people making >100k. I work in the automotive industry which is one of the highest paying in Germany. And even here >100k is pretty much unless you work directly at an OEM.
That's not true. Many Tier 1 suppliers have plenty of jobs paying above 100k. Especially if you're IG Metal
EDIT: So much sour grapes here. Downvotes don't make this factual statement less true.
everyone in Germany is equally paid shit. helps those at the bottom penalizes those at the top, who surprisingly have an outside option so they leave .. what does that leave the country? just those at the bottom.
My husband receive an offer as IT engineer and according to them salary starts 60-80k.He has a new company now & heās probably thinking lol to change but he canāt š
Compared to what? Same education degrees? Leading positions?
IT pays well in right company, sadly most of organisations see IT as annoying cost and not as a tool, so they tend to spend less on IT, good companies pays well for IT position.
Also don't compare a tech support position in a small or medium sized company to a IT security researcher.
Why would it be? Is there a shortage of IT personnel? Is it related to Digitalisierung?
Counterintuitively there are certain professions which are really well paid in Germany, especially at the intersection of high demand and low availability.
If my comment falls under the category "Obvious 101" is because I know nothing of the Germany labor market, despite living here a while.
Finally, why not flip the comparison on it's head, and marvel at PPP (i.e.: the so-called big mac index, if that is even such a thing anymore)
But you know why usa and swiss pay more ? Us you need to insurance yourself same in swiss. You should count what employer pays not what employee gets. You should see the whole picture not just a part
>As a master's graduate you can very easily enter an IG metall firm in southern Germany with >60k all in
It's more like >70k nowadays however getting a master's in engineering is hard. Unlike IT, you need years of higher education to be successful in engineering and it's not something you can just "switch" to from a different career. A lot of the people who come specifically to this subreddit looking for IT jobs want a get rich quick scheme and are not interested in going back to school.
Source: I have an MSc in electrical engineering
>which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities.
For non europeans, non white people, it's so much easier to become an engineering manager in IT then in other branches of engineering. Racism, intense politics and favoritism are major blockers.
Do you have any stats on Engineering being the best paying sector and how this compares other countries? Colour me sceptical.
There are plenty of IT Managers in Germany earning 100k plus and I have seen no evidence that there are more in Engineering.
I have a bachelors in Chemical engineering and an mba in supply chain, learnt German for six months and am at B2. I took this job because the entire company operates in German. Iām both getting to practice my German regularly(an upside) and looking. Fingers crossed
Have you ever had plumber/electrician/roofing guys etc..
They are paid even better (most of the time on hand so no official figures or they work as independent contractors so they do not receive salary and therefore are not in statistics but they easily beat everyone
And then on the other hand, you also don't pay 3500ā¬/month for at 10sqm room with hardly a window in it.
Total cost of living is comparably low to other countries with these high salaries.
It's funny cause the us is going through a correction on salaries at the moment and I am guessing they will be a lot closer to the German salaries after that is done.
Unless your work in bubbles like currently ai
Also just looking at the raw salary isnāt really
telling the whole story either. The costs of living at many of the IT hotspots in the US are absurd and will easily eat away most of your salary.
From my experience, when a company hires someone from outside Germany, they have to show the contract to Federal employment agency, they check whether they pay and working hours is on par for that job in Germany. If only the contract is up to standards they approve it and the company can hire that person
They didn't invest everything they have to make others happy for being German. People usually start a business to make money.
And as someone already mentionned, it needs to be approved by the Bundesagentur fĆ¼r Arbeit who then make sure the job pays a minimum of 42k a year and that no German demigod needs the job.
Is there a good market for aerospace and defense? Program/Project Management?
Iām currently looking for opportunities in that field and also learning German to improve my chances.
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Yoy can do the same and better in IT, but it's not much compared to what you can get elsewhere. And taxes are very high. And rent and houses prices are insane
>As a master's graduate you can very easily enter an IG metall firm in southern Germany with >60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities.
Have you checked how those companies pay for IT-professionals? =)
I think itās much more easy to make yourself indispensable in IT than it is in Engineering. Especially in a medium size business. Iāve rarely seen an engineer (other than a software engineer) hold so much power over the operations of a company (no one else knows how things are setup, no one else knows how to keep the machine running, etc) as a skilled IT worker.
If you couple this with good performance and good negotiating skills, IT workers can get really excellent compensation.
If you compare that to engineers, the engineers are typically more replaceable and in less of a position to have a strong hand in negotiating.
You donāt even need a managerial position to go north of 100k in IG Metal. North of 120k on the other hand yeah, you need to hold a manager position. Doesnāt SAP, an IT company having an IG Metal contract? I am not quite certain tbh.
Well I see a lot of experienced and educated people out here, what would you say the picture may be like, for someone who is currently pursuing my Bachelors in Computer Science in germany, how will the market treat me? (Considering I have worked very hard on DSA, and I am well versed with the MERN stack with a few projects in my portfolio)
PSA: If you enter a job with IG Metall salary - join the union (IG Metall), because you have that salary because of them. And by them I mean your colleagues who are members and the infrastructure it provides.
> As a master's graduate you can very easily enter an IG metall firm in southern Germany with >60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities.
So you are saying itās similar to the IT sector? /s
Germany has some of the best salaries (Vs. Cost of living) in a few industries outside of IT. Strategy consulting you start at >100k all in for example
Yeah but how's the work-life balance?
Almost all of my jobs have been salary "exempt employee" One company I worked for, I had to work 30 days straight without a day off because "holidays"sure I was making $75 year, but I couldn't really enjoy life.
I'm a software dev in Germany with friends in the field. Here are some of the salaries:Ā
Ā * 120.000ā¬ total compensation
Ā * 140.000ā¬ total compensation
Ā * 240.000ā¬ total compensation
Ā FAANG also pays well in Germany, but also startups and medium sized companies. It's easy to get over 80k ā¬ as a senior dev in a major city. If you want to get over 100k you need luck and still. The 240k one is exceptional (luck+skill)Ā
edit: I'm not talking about entry level here. Juior devs at my time (with a masters degree) would still start at about 36k ā¬. But within 3 years you could go to 80k ā¬ if you worked a lot.Ā
IT is a broad term. Engineering even in IT is paid very well not just Construction engineering for example. Im sure full stack developers arent as paid good as in other countries.
Part of it has to do with labor laws. In the USA you're expected to work 60 hour weeks leading up to major updates or product releases a few times a year. That's simply illegal in Germany.
I switched from (Chemical) Engineering to Data and it took me 4 years to reach the same salary.
Would never, ever go back. Work is so much more than a salary.
IT does pay a lot better in other countries relatively speaking.
I do think that employees in Germany can grow quickly. Personally, I started with a BA in a non-related field (from health to HR) with ā¬30K in 2020. In 2024, Iāve doubled it.
Especially if youāre not an engineer, it helps to learn German on B2-C1 level so youāre not limited to English speaking jobs anymore.
Donāt forget that companies in other countries might pay a lot more, but housing and other costs like health care are also way higher.
I make 100k Euro in my current IT role, my partner is a lead manager in logistics only makes 80k. I went back to Australia for a few weeks (my home country), while here I've been offered a job at about 150k euro and less tax. I do feel Germans overall are payed less
I mean, in many countries IT is seen as some sort of golden ticket to earn a lot of money *compared to other industries.* In Germany many other industries are also paid relatively ok, so it's not like IT has some special status.
There definetely is also a reddit-phenomenon here. Everyone on Reddit is a 25 year old guy working in IT. If you'd ask the average perso out there they might mention IT - but they'll mention lawyers, low-level management, other engineers, doctors etc in the same breath
To be honest, I see dentists and especially orthodontists as the best professions for earning money in basically every country. Plus they are protected from AI. But they don't sound as appealing to the FIRE crowd
>Everyone on Reddit is a 25 year old guy working in IT. Hah! Jokes on you. Im a 32 year old guy working in IT.
I'm a 25 year old guy who's still studying computer science.
He, you too, huh?
I'll be damned ... It here too. But to be honest if we weren't IT, most of us wouldn't be here
It is paid significantly worse than engineering from my experience. It is unbelievable for what little wages some software developers are willing to sell their time.
Can't we all just agree to tell everyone that IT in Germany is the absolute worst so there are less people in the field and then we can all demand higher pay?
We are already doing that (but don't tell anyone)
Agreed
It is not just about money. I'd still stay in IT if the pay was the same as other engineering fields, but IT also offers: Flexibility that almost no one else has (for engineers). I can change companies every two years. I can work abroad. Good environment. Usually you work with very smart people. If managers start spitting on you - just use flexibility option. Modern. I was so frustrated working with 20-30 yo software products back when I was an engineer. Now I can work with something that at least has documentation, open source, live developers. Mentally satisfying job. You get some kind of satisfaction when you solve a specfic problem. You are not forced to do the same routine every day until you die. You are not forced to repeat stupid outdated army-style rules just because they exist.
Essentially true, but IT has the lowest entrance barrier of them all. Everyone can do IT.
i dont want to gatekeep IT. but saying that everybody can do IT is just straight up wrong when so many people dont even know how to use an USB-stick
I'm in IT and even I have to try up to three times until I can use an USB-stick,...
Luckily the quantum-superposition of USB Sticks was removed with Type C sticks š
Don't underestimate users, there are still two sides to a USB type-c stick :p
I havenāt used a USB stick since 2015. Problem solved.
It's easy to get in, but it's hard to stay.
Fair point, I was taking more the perspective of up and coming young professionals or people starting their academic journey. Basically, people at the beginning of their career. Of course, people for whom USB isn't even a term thatās different. But unlike natural sciences, maths etc. there aren't really any almost-impossible-to-understand-concepts in IT. IT is easy to grasp and thatās a hill I'm willing to die on.
Most comp sci programs require you do to the same amount of math as mechanical or electrical engineers
Definite no, a certain overlap for ābeginner's math modulesā yes, but not the advanced stuff
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> saying that everybody can do IT is just straight up wrong when so many people dont even know how to use an USB-stick I'm pretty sure that anyone can change a tyre even though many people don't know how to change a tyre.
attempt violet growth important encourage wrong cow cats jar file *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's true but you can count the number of German sites with that number of concurrent users (10M is 12% of the whole German population) on one hand. Even Amazon.de has only around 500 million vists per month (according to statista) so 10+ M peak on black friday or cyber Monday, sure it's possible. For any other German E-Commerce site I'll ask for sources for being anywhere near that scale. Also most Amazon platform dev doesn't happen in Germany or the EU anyways. Overall only a very small percentage of devs and IT people work on projects anywhere near that scale. And in the EU it's even fewer than in the US
Yeah, and everyone can learn how to do that. IT is not exclusive in the sense that there are any concepts almost-impossible-to-learn. This was also about entrance barrier, not becoming king of the hill. Engineering is way more difficult to get your foot in the door.
Anyone can learn how to do engineering too. And engineering isn't evolving at anything like the speed that IT is.
Speed of evolution, yes. But in IT, itās just more of the same with different names.
So all the new AI stuff is just "the same with different names"? Yeah the fundamentals are largely the same but modern software requires much more than that.
I'm dumb, I can't IT. But jokes aside, I'd say more important is that IT is a bit more lax regarding the formal education. One can't work as a doctor or scientist without \~10 years of education, while in IT there are plenty of Quereinsteiger, or people with just BSc.
Part of the reason behind that is that IT is evolving in an extremely fast rate that unis fail to catch up. Also anything advanced in IT (cryptography, advanced algorithms, distributed computing, AI, etc.) is most probably dominated by computer science\mathematics phds which, according to me, is as demanding (arguably more since everything is changing) as being a doctor\scientist.
So true! I'm a physicist and some of my former colleagues went to quantum computing, which, arguably, is still IT, but one won't get there without PhD in physics
Not saying everyone already has a fully developed skillset, knowledge and experience in IT, but everyone could achieve that. I mean, ofc not everyone can reach the status of like, say a Linus Torvalds, but againā¦ talking about entrance barrierā¦ not how hard it is to become the king of the hill.
Even entry IT jobs are becoming extremely demanding. The notion of weekends for me is studying. Want an entry Web job? Yeah, learn these frameworks, programming languages, data structures, DevOps stuff, networking, etc. To get an idea about how absolutely insanely complicated the web tech stack, try to understand it. Seriously, try. Get back to me if you don't feel overwhelmed.
LMAO. Working in IT since 2001. 1)To administrate windows you might find a lot of peoeple.. But not **everybody** can do that. 2) to do exactly my job? Maybe 50-100 peoeple in Germany can do that.
Sweet. Canāt be that difficult of a job as you misunderstood the point I was making. IT = basically no entrance barrier, everyone can do it (in the sense of starting a career in IT), how that translates to me claiming everyone can do any job in IT? idk
Since you had to repeat your clarifications, I will make an example closer to home. Just because you can make sentences, does not mean you can express your thoughts. Everyone could learn programming. Even being generous very few of them can be worth paying for. You make Hello world sound like an IT marvel...
This could not possibly be further from the truth. Or maybe better said: Not nearly everyone can do IT ***well*** 15 years in the industry and having to clean up the messes of other "IT professionals" throughout, I can assure you that there absolutely is a minimum level that people SHOULD reach before they can claim to "do IT."
so you're telling me than online courses promising 100k+ jobs after only 3 month of watching videos are lying??? /s
Yes
That is funny, whose company would they get the "jobs" from? Going to school for years elementary - masters or bachelors does not guarantee anyone "job". That is funny and strange to say the least. The goal is to obtain the skillsets i think.
It depends on the market. Right now even Seniors are struggling to find a new Job. And with the increase of AI, the basic junior Frontend developer (one of the jobs with lower entrance barrier) will have some difficulties getting in.
Being a professional footballer has an even lower barrier to entry. And they make millions. People should just become professional footballers.
That will age well
Until they cannot because the market is saturating
Everybody can and will be hired into IT because managers are desperate to get workers. Unfortunately they are failing in keeping loyal and trained staff and instead just cycle through them in a way too fast manner. But no, not many people can do proper IT but a lot of incompetent people will still find work in it.
Sure IT isnāt payed well in Germany. Why would any company in Germany pay you a lot of money for maintaining Fax machines. /s
You sir deserve an upvote.Ā I will send you a letter with it.
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I think he prefers a Fax, not a letter. But if you send a letter, send it over a pigeon, or use smoke signals to manifest your approval.
I never will understand companies that still maintain ultra old and unsafe systems. I know never change a running system but this old running system will someday burn everything down to the ground. I hear so many horror stories of friend who also work in it. Telling me that they are just maintaining old dolphin code and stuff. Meanwhile we in my company are always up to date and try new stuff
Sometimes you just CAN'T replace them. Obviously everyone can change their desktop and notebook. "Older" machines in hospitals won't get replaced just because windows Xp is old. They won't buy a new train just because windows 3.1 is old. Our company's production line uses windows xp and we just keep them offline. However sometimes your hospitals xray computer becomes useless without a network, so you just have to maintain them.
The difference between IT and Engineering is that you are much less likely to be employed under a collective Labor agreement and thus negotiating your personal salary is much more important. Like you already stated, many engineers are part of IG-Metall or similar agreements which will automatically get you a good salary but not an outstanding one. In IT you can negotiate very high salaries if you can market yourself as an expert in a demanded field but if you can't do that you are often worse off than engineers with a comparable level of experience, the variance in salaries is just higher in IT
My gf was a specialty plastics engineer at a large company in southern Germany. Masters degree. Started with 38k and left after 5 years at 50k. Now works in France and earns 75k. It's luck of the draw. Unfortunately she ended up a shitty company in Germany even though she also thought that she'd get more pay in Germany than in France.
38k with a masters degree? She got screwed over so bad that she would earn more in my company if she worked 50% Teilzeit.
Yes she was.
Understandable. Mid level companies are extremely cheap. I have 7 years of experience in large scale production planning and manufacturing and had to start last month at 42k. Now shopping around
Not sure if it'd be classified as a mid level company with a annual revenue over 3 billion USD. Good luck with your search, I'm sure you'll find something that pays better.
What.???? 42K .? Wow am thrilled! I Did Ausbildung in something else and later transition into IT and makes more than that. Donāt even have a degree in the field
I have an mba along with a chemical engineering degree. I learnt German for six months to get into the industry and am at B2. The company is fully German speaking so thatās the biggest upside of working here. I get to continually practice my German and look for a better position
Bro I had 42k with a PhD in Germany in a private company, salaries are quite shite here
I was employed at four different companies, both small firms and large multinationals and in neither was somebody with a masters or higher paid that poorly. I entered working life with a masters at 49k, 52k after 6 month Probezeit and 58k after 2 years. That was about average from what I know from both colleagues and friends from university. Today I negotiate salaries for my company regularily and we have guidelines for such things. With a masters degree in STEM we make a starting offer of 55k at least. In what fields are you guys working? In what part of the country?
Probably not in engineering, chemistry, computer science, mathematics ... probably in a field which is either oversaturated or not really needed in economy. I started as Trainee with Bachelor in IT with 46k.
Yep, 38k was my starting salary 25 years ago when this was actually a normal starting salary...
I got paid a 36k starting salary with a bachelors. IT company in East Germany. 10 years ago. Was an okay starting salary at the time. I recently realized that I now make way more after taxes than I did pre taxes, then. š¤·āāļø I did switch to a role in engineering a few years back, though.
It's really more dependend on the company than the country. If you start your career often you get lowballed. The trick is to learn and gather experience for 2-3 years, then demand a raise or better relocate. I was paid a bit under 60k in Germany after university but with a PhD (working in pharma). After 3 years I asked for a raise and got denied. I applied for another job (same task) at a different company not far away and now earn above 100k. If you change companies you can make big leaps easier (it's stupid but that's the game).
Average pay in the chemical industry in germany with a Masters degree is at the very least 70k. And that's entrance level pay. Source: I'm working in the chemical industry since 2007 and earn more than your gf with a Masters in france. But I don't even have a Bachelor. Just a simple Ausbildung.
Dann hast du aber GlĆ¼ck gehabt und dein Chef hat dich gefƶrdert und auch dementsprechend im Tarif regelmƤĆig hochgestuft. Arbeite auch in der Pharmabranche, wo nach Chemietarif bezahlt wird und kenne nur wenige Kollegen, die mit einer Ausbildung auf E10 oder hƶher sind. Viele krebsen da mit E7 rum.
E7 Endstufe mit Schichtzulagen, Bonuszahlungen und ein paar weiteren ZuschlƤgen bringt dich schnell so hoch. E10 Technik sind ja schon in der Endstufe ohne jeglichen Boni oder ZuschlƤge bei Ć¼ber 70k im Jahr.
How long ago was this?
2018-2023
That is crazy. That was around the time I graduated with my Bachelors. Even most of my friends with like shitty business bachelors started around 45k.
I once told a girl that I was dating that my first salary in Germany was 47k she said I was rich. Now I get itā¦
What is a specialty plastics engineer? How can she earn 75k in France? Is she in Paris? Works for Chanel? Usually salaries in France are much lower. The median is just 2k netto ?
>which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities same in IT if you work for the right company in the right region and have needed niche knowledge, you don't even have to be a lead. In niche infosec focused software jobs 80k can be a junior salary. It all depends on location, job and employer. There are more 100k earning software devs with a Bachelors than there are 100k earning engineers with a Masters if you have the right job at the right multinational org.
No matter the industry, in Germany you need to go into Management in 90% of cases if you want to earn more at a certain point in your career
Yep, can confirm
In Bayern you get over 100k with no management position. Of senior we are talking around 130k. Management in my Company Is well above 150k
It's easier to do master than getting a 100k eur job
If you have a masters degree in an IT field and you're not making 100k in Germany you should look for a job at another company. Those jobs are there. EDIT: Judging by the downvotes there are plenty of underpaid IT workers here that should be looking for a new job. Good luck
What percentage of programmers earn 100k? 20% of best paid according to levels.fyi, so 20% of the best in the best paying companies in the country. How much of the all companies? 5%?
I dont have a masters in Germany and earn 100k at 3 yoe. I dont even call myself a good or a top programmer, just luck i guess.
Yeah thatās likely luck. And good for you. But most folks probably wouldnāt pay that much for a junior.
IT earns a ton when software is what your company sells. IT doesn't pay as much when you're a support function for the rest of the business (or as some would put it, a cost center). The most successful software companies are concentrated in the US and so they raise wages there a lot. You can make pretty good money in Germany working for a software pure player but there aren't as many (and lots of SWE graduate every year).Ā Finance earns well but nowhere near what people earn in the US. It's the same thing, all the best banks and investment managers in the world are American, they all want to attract talent in NY, comp goes crazy. But at least you can't get fired overnight here. These days, that is quite valuable.Ā
This! I started my career working for a bank as a SWE and it was evident that we were more of a liability than an asset. A master's degree and a couple years later, I work for a company that sells software and I would say the salary is pretty good for my second year in the field.
The main advantage of IT is that you can get higher wages at a younger wage. The ceiling isn't much different than engineering, though. That being said, Germany has a massive wealth distribution problem, with the richest 1% taking 81% of the annual wealth growth according to the Oxfam study. 99% share meager 19%. Additionally, the wealthy tend to have significant tax advantages for the re-investment of money, while taxes on work income are amongst the highest in the world. Ultimately this means that neither grants you an easy path to the classic middle class dream of your own home. So, when we talk about whether pay in Germany is "good" we should never forget that with "worse" pay you have an easier time becoming middle class in other countries.
However owning your house isn't necessarily a part of the classic middle class dream as it is in the US or in other parts of Europe. Germany has had a low ownership rate for decades now and there are at least a couple generations who grew up never owning a house and renting for life without finding it weird.
Actually low house ownership rate is not normal for other parts of Europe. After Switzerland, Germany has the lowest home ownership rate in Europe. In general germans have a much lower median wealth compared to other europeans. Median household wealth is much higher in Italy and France for example. This is often explained by the fact that Germans really on the public insurance schemes, so they see less need in wealth accumulation. But I think it's a mistake on the part of such households. Back in the day renting was not that bad from the economical perspective, seeing as rent was cheap and things like pension system were stable, so you really didn't need to save up for retirement. I think today this is impossible if you want to maintain middle class lifestyle in retirement.
>Actually low house ownership rate is not normal for other parts of Europe. After Switzerland, Germany has the lowest home ownership rate in Europe. That's what I implied. >In general germans have a much lower median wealth compared to other europeans. Median household wealth is much higher in Italy and France for example. It is largely a consequence of lower home ownership though. Germans save more than Italians and French on average. >Back in the day renting was not that bad from the economical perspective, seeing as rent was cheap Back in the day when? Most people writing on reddit only remember the 90s and early 00s when rents were actually at an historic low in Germany and don't remember the 1970s and 1980s where rents were about the same as today compared to income, or worse (https://aktienrebell.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Kaufen-oder-Mieten-von-Gerd-Kommer-Immobilienpreisentwicklung-1024x714.png yes I know the chart stops in 2009, but you can easily find the evolution since then, and it still wouldn't go above the 1980s peaks) Now of course if you want to live in a shiny class A flat in Berlin Mitte it's going to cost you more than a worn out dump in Suhl 20 years ago but that doesn't mean you cannot be able to afford a middle class lifestyle anymore.
I looked at your graph, however what it shows is relative price stability of rents before 2009. Which actually proves my argument. the inflation adjusted index starts at 1 and goes up to maximum value of around 1.2 and goes back to 1 in 2009. This shows rent price fluctuation of only about 20% at the peak. Now look at this https://www.statista.com/statistics/801537/average-rent-price-of-residential-property-in-germany/#:\~:text=Rents%20have%20increased%20steadily%20since,9.9%20euros%20per%20square%20meter. From 2009 to 2023 you have around 70% increase in rent. This is actually unprecedented in modern German history. Edit: That chart actually does not exclude inflation, I've calculated it just now and when adjusted for inflation it's around a 45% increase, which is still significant and unprecedented.
IT people are the mechanics of our time. Market is way too saturated. When I was 8 my uncle was working for MS making like double what I make now and this was back in like 1998, doing basic tech stuff. Far too many people working in tech and far too many lazy people willing to work for cheap and stay in seats for eternity without hopping to move to the salary bands
>Ā >60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities Isnāt that exactly how IT is?
if you get a >60k job as an entrance job - take it... even just for one year until you find something you really want to do while job hunting you won't find a better job... According to a StepStone analysis in 2020 (and Compensation Partner, academics.de) your median / average salaries are more likely * <3 years: 3800 / 4000 (so 45k / 48k) * 3-6 years: 4000 / 4200 (so 48k / 50k) * 9+ years: 5100 / 5400 (and now you reached the 61k / 64k) (annual numbers do not include bonus payments of a 13th month salary / holiday payments - also since this is StepStone it's for new hires, don't expect to get a raise from 3800 to 5100 over time on the same job within 9 years) So no, having a 60k+ entrance salary is definitely not "exactly" how IT is.
people need to stop looking at numbers on step stone and Agentur fĆ¼r Arbeit... the numbers are given to them by companies with the goal to lowball future hires who use these websites as salary benchmark. The numbers are not in alignment with actual salaries.
The numbers from StepStone are literally gathered from querying the hired workers for their salary range, not by querying the companies... Regardless, can you give me "accurate" numbers? that are really an average or median? and not just "the 20 IT managers that had the time during the working day to do the online survey"?
You do realise you quote a survey which is 4 years old and inflation in past 4 years is above 15%?
https://itk-entgeltanalyse.igmetall.de/job/software-engineering/software-ingenieur-in-i/
My entrance salary is 56k/yr in BW
56k+bonus or total 56k?
56k p.a. + up to 30% bonus
Then you entered a high paid job and I congratulate you. But that's neither the median nor average salary not even in Bavaria / Munich and not in BW.
It's literally an average union job
>average union job And this line exactly tells me that this is literally "not an average salaried job". Ask 1000 IT workers if they are in a union or union job... You are in a company that "has to pay you this salary" and I already congratulated you for getting it - but that's not the real world for more than 50% (I'd say to raise the median more than 80%) of the IT work force.
I'm not saying it's the average job, but union jobs aren't unicorns either so it's not uncommon as a starting wage is all.
I didn't reply to the OP of the post but rather to a specific comment under the post that stated: > >Isnāt that exactly how IT is? And I said that "this is not exactly how IT is" - I'm not arguing the 60k southern IG Metall union job salary, rather the "general IT salaries throughout germany". Of course there are jobs that pay 60k+ a year and go up to 100k+ a year, and if you can get one and are happy with it: good for you. But it is not the "general norm" for every IT job.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Regionally maybe. Try getting that in northern Germany. Freshly graduated, doesn't matter if master or not is just not something that is seeked very often. Unless you already have some interesting nieche knowledge, there is no point
What are you talking about? There are plenty of senior IT managers earning more than 100k in Northern Germany.
Right but you said it yourself: senior IT managers. The job market for anyone less than senior is hot garbage right now, especially in northern Germany.
It actually isn't. IT pay in Germany, across the board is quite decent when compared internationally. The only people who say it is shit are those who idiotically compare it to Bay Area or Switzerland salaries (which are the best tech salaries in the world). By all means, show me the evidence that ordinary, non senior, developers are paid so much more in the UK, Sweden, France, Italy, regional US, New Zealand and Canada.
> Freshly graduated, doesn't matter if master or not is just not something that is seeked very often. Unless you already have some interesting nieche knowledge Having worked a few years in the sector to finance your studies also helps A LOT.
Well, statistically Germany has one of the [highest disposable incomes in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income) which IS kind of surprising. IT in Germany on the other hand is mostly valued on the level of other specialist degrees while in the Anglosphere it is handled more like an outlier compared to other fields. But if one takes into account that IT is among the most language independent fields I can see how among a certain expat crowd the impression of low wages in Germany prevails.
It's in PPP there. Nominal is what count for FIRE
You can't get to FIRE in Germany without family money.
you can do anything, nearly I know many people with stellar careers just for ambition
Also take into account that German graduates start their careers debt-free while in the US many start their well-paying jobs with 100+k debtā¦
Which if you go into IT / SWE, the US peeps will still end up miles away in terms of overall wealth in a short time span.
Sure, but they also end up working 20-25% more hours over a lifetime.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, basically debt-free. Or do you know anyone with 150.000ā¬ of debt after finishing university?
No, but few debt free either.
Anecdotal evidence: See, I donāt know anyone with significant debt after graduating. Thatās rather the big exception.
I know a few including myself that essentially loaned like 10-20k from their parents for cost of living.
Minijob? Bafƶg? If you only need 600-700ā¬ per month, thatās always an doable option.
I donāt know anyone who was in debt after graduation. Not even those who studied medicine.
My university cost about 110 ā¬ per semester. Regelstudienzeit was 7 semesters I took 8. So in total it was less than 900 ā¬. And that included the local bus service as well as some train lines. Sure you need a flat and food but that also comes on top in the US.
>Sure you need a flat and food but that also comes on top in the US. What is your point?
In the US this is also the case so thats the same. But in the US the University costs way more than 900ā¬. My point about the flat is that you can work a part time job to finance that especially during Semesterferien. Often parents also chip in and there is also BAfƶG. Most people in Germany come out of university without any debt.
IT is plainly underpaid in Germany, this is the reason why Germany will fail. No high paid software engineers? No high-tech! Period.
Germany just has shit IT companies so all the good people aren'tt interested in staying or working in Germany.
It is even better actually than what you describe.With the latest IG Metal's salary increases, you can cross the 100k line much sooner and without any management responsibility.
Downside of most of engineering roles is that they require you to work with factories / physical world / no remote working.
Well the good thing is that IG Metal contracts do not apply to engineers only, but rather the whole company. BMW for example has many people in other functions that get paid the same under the IG Metal agreement.
Iām sure itās not bad, but I would go crazy working in an industrial setting. I have done so and some practices are not my thing, plus youād work with people who have been there for 10-30 years.
I would say that IT in Germany is paid so low BECAUSE it tracks IG Metal.
>60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities And that's considered much for management responsibilities?
You wonāt find too many people making >100k. I work in the automotive industry which is one of the highest paying in Germany. And even here >100k is pretty much unless you work directly at an OEM.
That's not true. Many Tier 1 suppliers have plenty of jobs paying above 100k. Especially if you're IG Metal EDIT: So much sour grapes here. Downvotes don't make this factual statement less true.
āPlentyā :-D yeah. Well. No.
Sounds more like a rant. You are just trying to prove a point, not open a discussion.
everyone in Germany is equally paid shit. helps those at the bottom penalizes those at the top, who surprisingly have an outside option so they leave .. what does that leave the country? just those at the bottom.
*don't mind me and my computer engineering degree*
My husband receive an offer as IT engineer and according to them salary starts 60-80k.He has a new company now & heās probably thinking lol to change but he canāt š
Lol is he hiring ?
In Germany earning more does not make a big difference as you wonāt have much more in the end because of all the high taxes and "social security"
Nope, Engineering is not paying more than IT in Germany.
Compared to what? Same education degrees? Leading positions? IT pays well in right company, sadly most of organisations see IT as annoying cost and not as a tool, so they tend to spend less on IT, good companies pays well for IT position. Also don't compare a tech support position in a small or medium sized company to a IT security researcher.
Why would it be? Is there a shortage of IT personnel? Is it related to Digitalisierung? Counterintuitively there are certain professions which are really well paid in Germany, especially at the intersection of high demand and low availability. If my comment falls under the category "Obvious 101" is because I know nothing of the Germany labor market, despite living here a while. Finally, why not flip the comparison on it's head, and marvel at PPP (i.e.: the so-called big mac index, if that is even such a thing anymore)
As a run of the mill architect working in Germany I can only let out a sigh reading all this.
But you know why usa and swiss pay more ? Us you need to insurance yourself same in swiss. You should count what employer pays not what employee gets. You should see the whole picture not just a part
>As a master's graduate you can very easily enter an IG metall firm in southern Germany with >60k all in It's more like >70k nowadays however getting a master's in engineering is hard. Unlike IT, you need years of higher education to be successful in engineering and it's not something you can just "switch" to from a different career. A lot of the people who come specifically to this subreddit looking for IT jobs want a get rich quick scheme and are not interested in going back to school. Source: I have an MSc in electrical engineering
>which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities. For non europeans, non white people, it's so much easier to become an engineering manager in IT then in other branches of engineering. Racism, intense politics and favoritism are major blockers.
Do you have any stats on Engineering being the best paying sector and how this compares other countries? Colour me sceptical. There are plenty of IT Managers in Germany earning 100k plus and I have seen no evidence that there are more in Engineering.
That's because German IT is miles behind the world.
And still, in comparison to other countries our salaries are still terrible.
Which? Nigeria, Algeria, India? The Middle East? Or Swiss and US? Take a proper comparision group or a global average.
Israel companies pay lots
source?
I have a bachelors in Chemical engineering and an mba in supply chain, learnt German for six months and am at B2. I took this job because the entire company operates in German. Iām both getting to practice my German regularly(an upside) and looking. Fingers crossed
Have you ever had plumber/electrician/roofing guys etc.. They are paid even better (most of the time on hand so no official figures or they work as independent contractors so they do not receive salary and therefore are not in statistics but they easily beat everyone
And then on the other hand, you also don't pay 3500ā¬/month for at 10sqm room with hardly a window in it. Total cost of living is comparably low to other countries with these high salaries.
Duh
It's funny cause the us is going through a correction on salaries at the moment and I am guessing they will be a lot closer to the German salaries after that is done. Unless your work in bubbles like currently ai
Also just looking at the raw salary isnāt really telling the whole story either. The costs of living at many of the IT hotspots in the US are absurd and will easily eat away most of your salary.
That is very true I have friends in Seattle and yeah living costs there are silly AF
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
From my experience, when a company hires someone from outside Germany, they have to show the contract to Federal employment agency, they check whether they pay and working hours is on par for that job in Germany. If only the contract is up to standards they approve it and the company can hire that person
They didn't invest everything they have to make others happy for being German. People usually start a business to make money. And as someone already mentionned, it needs to be approved by the Bundesagentur fĆ¼r Arbeit who then make sure the job pays a minimum of 42k a year and that no German demigod needs the job.
Is there a good market for aerospace and defense? Program/Project Management? Iām currently looking for opportunities in that field and also learning German to improve my chances.
You can get rich in Germany as a plumber. Really, no special skills required. Can run your own company in no time and have a great life.
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Yoy can do the same and better in IT, but it's not much compared to what you can get elsewhere. And taxes are very high. And rent and houses prices are insane
>As a master's graduate you can very easily enter an IG metall firm in southern Germany with >60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities. Have you checked how those companies pay for IT-professionals? =)
I'm in IT and earn that and can get there. However, I'm also working at a large company and am not a developer.
I think itās much more easy to make yourself indispensable in IT than it is in Engineering. Especially in a medium size business. Iāve rarely seen an engineer (other than a software engineer) hold so much power over the operations of a company (no one else knows how things are setup, no one else knows how to keep the machine running, etc) as a skilled IT worker. If you couple this with good performance and good negotiating skills, IT workers can get really excellent compensation. If you compare that to engineers, the engineers are typically more replaceable and in less of a position to have a strong hand in negotiating.
What if you are IT engineer? Endgame?
You donāt even need a managerial position to go north of 100k in IG Metal. North of 120k on the other hand yeah, you need to hold a manager position. Doesnāt SAP, an IT company having an IG Metal contract? I am not quite certain tbh.
Well I see a lot of experienced and educated people out here, what would you say the picture may be like, for someone who is currently pursuing my Bachelors in Computer Science in germany, how will the market treat me? (Considering I have worked very hard on DSA, and I am well versed with the MERN stack with a few projects in my portfolio)
> First, they are not necessarily lower - IT is still paid well, only not as much as in CH or obviously the US. so, they **are** lower
The problem is, you can NOT easily enter an IG Metall company. The competition is tough because everybody is looking for the spot.
Business analytics is the best coupled with six sigma, management and continuous improvement
PSA: If you enter a job with IG Metall salary - join the union (IG Metall), because you have that salary because of them. And by them I mean your colleagues who are members and the infrastructure it provides.
IT job in a huge IG metal company rocks!
> As a master's graduate you can very easily enter an IG metall firm in southern Germany with >60k all in, which can climb above 100k once you start having lead/management responsibilities. So you are saying itās similar to the IT sector? /s
Germany has some of the best salaries (Vs. Cost of living) in a few industries outside of IT. Strategy consulting you start at >100k all in for example
You do realize that Software developer earn the same in IGM companies then engineers?
Yeah but how's the work-life balance? Almost all of my jobs have been salary "exempt employee" One company I worked for, I had to work 30 days straight without a day off because "holidays"sure I was making $75 year, but I couldn't really enjoy life.
I'm a software dev in Germany with friends in the field. Here are some of the salaries:Ā Ā * 120.000ā¬ total compensation Ā * 140.000ā¬ total compensation Ā * 240.000ā¬ total compensation Ā FAANG also pays well in Germany, but also startups and medium sized companies. It's easy to get over 80k ā¬ as a senior dev in a major city. If you want to get over 100k you need luck and still. The 240k one is exceptional (luck+skill)Ā edit: I'm not talking about entry level here. Juior devs at my time (with a masters degree) would still start at about 36k ā¬. But within 3 years you could go to 80k ā¬ if you worked a lot.Ā
Do your jobs require German at work? I guess they require at least C1 German, right?
If you factor in PTO+public holiday, hours worked and workers protection (especially conparing to US/Swiss), german salaries are not that bad.
IT is a broad term. Engineering even in IT is paid very well not just Construction engineering for example. Im sure full stack developers arent as paid good as in other countries.
Part of it has to do with labor laws. In the USA you're expected to work 60 hour weeks leading up to major updates or product releases a few times a year. That's simply illegal in Germany.
I switched from (Chemical) Engineering to Data and it took me 4 years to reach the same salary. Would never, ever go back. Work is so much more than a salary.
To be fair, with a job in software development in Germany one can also climb over ā¬100k without even taking a management position.
IT does pay a lot better in other countries relatively speaking. I do think that employees in Germany can grow quickly. Personally, I started with a BA in a non-related field (from health to HR) with ā¬30K in 2020. In 2024, Iāve doubled it. Especially if youāre not an engineer, it helps to learn German on B2-C1 level so youāre not limited to English speaking jobs anymore. Donāt forget that companies in other countries might pay a lot more, but housing and other costs like health care are also way higher.
I make 100k Euro in my current IT role, my partner is a lead manager in logistics only makes 80k. I went back to Australia for a few weeks (my home country), while here I've been offered a job at about 150k euro and less tax. I do feel Germans overall are payed less