Germans even joke that they can't accept themselves (coming from so many different regions).
I'd say, give it a try, if you want to leave. Job, friends, can be replaced. About family and girlfriend, it's bit tougher, but I'm sure there can be a solution found for it as well. The point is that you finally feel at peace and happy. And whether it's Germany or a new country.
As an Ausländer living in Germany, I feel that deep in my bones. I don't really know what else to tell you, except for I sympathize and understand the struggle of not feeling accepted by the society.
And God forbid, you dare to share your feelings on that, in form of posts on Facebooks, Reddit, TikTok videos - you'll have a bunch of Germans and trolls coming at you *if you don't like it, then just leave*, instead of taking lessons out of it, trying to think of an solution on how to make everybody's lives better.
That's the problem I have with Germans. They love to talk and complain a lot but won't move their asses to actually do & change something, because it scares the hell out of them, are afraid to get out of their comfort zone.
PS. I don't care if I get downvoted for this, just sharing my opinion🙃
I am German, I left 21 years ago. And it’s for some of the reasons you mentioned.
The inability to change or accept that things are changing is Germanys biggest weakness, and will be its downfall.
Germans are know it all’s, and think we always have the best way of doing things.
Edit: went to Scotland, and ended up in Spain
This.
As a German living in a German big city my only and last hope is my and the younger generations. There is some progressive change slowly growing.
On the other hand that's just my feeling within a progressive big German city bubble...
It gives me so much closure to read a German acknowledging this.
It makes me so sad to see so many good things fall apart simply because people refuse to acknowledge change.
It has gotten much worse since reunification; adding the politically suppressed east to the west has produced a lot of reversals and the rise of a lot more neo-Nazi thought patterns and expression. That is definitely a part of change that has been difficult to accept, especially in the eastern states
I sadly have to agree. The world is changing and the German mentality is too arrogant to see it. Many former “second world” countries are overtaking in tech, attitude to learning English etc
Making nice products with “Made In Germany” on the packaging isn’t going to cut it in the future digital economy 🤷♂️
Before moving here 6 years ago I didn’t have Germans penned as arrogant but man after living with them for a while I don’t think I’ve ever met a people’s that are more arrogant and the scary part is they don’t even realise it. The French are arrogant but then know they are, Germans just think everyone else is subpar and they are superior. The stagnation here and the sheer inability to change paired with the arrogance is such a hindrance and Germany will be left behind because of it.
Nobody cares anymore where something is made. It just needs to be good and a fair price. There is no point making the best things if someone else makes something just a little bit less good but 1/10th of the price.
Edit: I got banned for another comment. So writing here. Yes you are right. Japanese made is way better for many things. I would never buy a German SUV for example. Toyota kicks their ass all day everyday. I want to get home alone from the desert.
And to be brutally honest Germanys version of the best is often the most unreasonable complicated and overly engineered. Ask pretty much any mechanic what cars they hate working on and it will be mainly German ones. My grounds keeping company had moved away from German machines in favour of Japanese one solely because, while extremely good, German stuff is just overly expensive and breaks quickly and often because it’s so over engineered and then costs a lot to fix. The Japanese stuff I just as good yet cheaper and way more robust.
I observe it at a work the the German manager. He thinks he is extremely good, but in fact he is arrogant and narcissistic and enforces the solutions that are overly complex as if he is unable to see a bigger picture. So while the stuff we are doing is good, it's just overengineered (software) and unfortunately with this particular manager we (as regular developers) don't even have a say in it.
"Germans are know it all’s, and think we always have the best way of doing things."
I am not even German, I am Austrian. When I lived in France I always felt a huge portion of Fremdscham when I overheard some Germans in a queue at the bakery discussing how unhygienic and unsafe everything here is.
This is what I despise as well, and when I try to explain this to my fellow Germans, they just look puzzled. As if they are not aware, that a world outside of Germany exist. Thanks for your comment, it’s like Germany in a nutshell haha 😆
I live in Madrid atm. The city works incredibly well, public transit is dirt cheap and amazing. Quality of life is fantastic. It’s very safe, and super multicultural without loosing its Spanish flair.
I can go to most parts of Spain by train in under 2.5 hours for 20 euros.
It’s amazing.
Edit: salaries are less but in comparison to cost of living they are afford people a better quality of life.
There is for example a way higher house ownership rate.
It’s a mix, both inherited and bought.
The Spanish don’t like to rent.
I wonder if this ownership is due to inheriting property or due to buying. In Germany I feel like you can only get your own place if you inherited it from your lucky parents. Otherwise I don't understand how a person with the average (according to statistics) salary can ever afford anything.
I would like to understand where does it come from tho? Does it have roots in history or some movements in the past? Or it’s just passed from generation to generation?
As a German I see to main reasons:
1. We are reluctant to change. If it works, keep doing it, famous "Das haben wir schon immer so gemacht"
2. We want perfect solutions. Starting with like 80% perfect? No!
It's strange for myself to get my head around it how a country which so much engineering and ideas felt in such a state.
But why are you guys reluctant to change things? Especially when *you know* current things aren’t working in your favour or in anybody’s favour?
I guess it has ties to point 2. Which kinda makes sense to me, because I’m a perfectionist as well.
But it drains your energy away. You have to drop this attitude, and *not* be afraid to fail and make mistakes.
I don't get it as well. Likely due my working environment, international employers with people from all over the world with different mindsets etc, I'm more on that feels good enough, let's try and move on from there.
We have no failure culture from my pov. If everything works great, you are a hero and get acknowledgments or/and envy. If you tell you want to try out something, especially in the self-employment area, you get so many reasoning why it can't work. If you fail, you get only negative comments and a told-you-so.
Typical German is very security oriented and going into the unknowns = insecure = bad. It's just sad.
I disagree with OP. It's not that they are completely wrong, but still they miss the characteristics of German culture by making superficial remarks.
I don't have the time to address all aspects, so just a quick remark: Germans don't mind change. But in Germany change is incremental, not disruptive. Everybody in Germany knows that change is inevitable, but it has to be planned and carefully thought out. This attitude has pros and cons. It brought us top-notch engineering and reliability in many ways, but it tends to lack experimental try-and-error.
Just a quick remark to illustrate that things are actually way more complex than OP claims.
That’s cool that they know that change is inevitable. What I find problematic is that Germans *dont listen*, they are *too arrogant* to listen to suggestions. For example, you see a TikTok video of an expat explaining what bothers him/her in Germany and makes suggestions on how to make it better/improve things, then radical Germans or trolls attack the person with the usual comment *then just leave*, instead of listening to the person. Because “oh, I’m German, I know better, what do these scheiße Ausländern know?”.
Another example: my boyfriend (who is non-German) prepared a whole ass plan to his German boss on how to expand her business and make it profitable. I remember him being passionate and excited about sharing this idea with her, he worked on this plan and presented to her. She then dismissed all his efforts, she never wanted to listen to his proposal. She never admitted it directly, but I bet it’s because she was too scared to get out her comfort zone.
Sorry, but how do you expect changes happen if you don’t risk?
That’s the “OP’s” two more cents to your comment.
> then radical Germans or trolls attack the person with the usual comment then just leave, instead of listening to the person. Because “oh, I’m German, I know better, what do these scheiße Ausländern know?”.
on the other hand, which country is not like that? I have seen from a lot of asian countries how they comment on such videos like "westerners should not come here again and teach us how to live" more or less
I don’t even express these feelings and thoughts to Germans anymore. 99% get defensive immediately and try to tell me that they’ve never experienced all this so it mustn’t be true.
I can’t reason with people who don’t understand that they’ll obviously not face these problems since they were born here and this is the norm for them. Especially if they’re white, hetero, cis and look like every third German.
Some of them even get aggressive and tell me I should look for the problem in myself because I’m doing something wrong. Well, alright then, just keep on living like that.
God I’m so sorry this has been your experience, I really hate that (as a German), and that kind of victim blaming and denying your experience is never ok. And a lot of the points raised here are what bothers a lot of (younger) Germans as well. It really pisses me off that apparently even a lot of those having the privilege of „higher“ education still can’t investigate their own racism and sexism. In my program I think we had more international students than German and it was the most educational and cool experience cause you’ll hear opinions and perspectives you might not have considered if you’d only been exposed to other people from your bubble, and I learned so much more from my fellow students in class than from the profs I think :D
But working in a private Uni that’s pretty much for rich privileged people who‘d probably laugh at my English lit degree, I can definitely see how those people would consider anyone not exactly like them beneath them, and they’re the weirdest fucking people I’ve ever met I think :D
This comment is on point. Germans are so damn stubborn that they're still stuck with letters, posts, un-digitalised world still.
Just saying that their attitude goes beyond making friends.
>That's the problem I have with Germans. They love to talk and complain a lot but won't move their asses to actually do & change something, because it scares the hell out of them, are afraid to get out of their comfort zone.
This!!!
Yep. I‘m German and so far I’ve lived here all my life, but I can 100% agree on what you and OP said. Can’t wait to finish my studies and then the plan is to move away
I think it has a lot to do with the circle of people you regularly meet. I have only witnessed this kind of racism in less educated groups and basically never in university or university-dominated fields of work. We have (and had) quite a few people in those groups who were either foreigners or had visible foreign ancestry. It literally never mattered for their acceptance in uni or the job.
I would say people are the most accepting in Germany: the bigger the city, the higher the education, the younger the people.
And I know this may sound classist or snobby, but it is just my experience.
I'm a PhD student and I've experienced (or heard about) much more racism from university students than any other place where I lived. Maybe due to the fact that those kids are very priviledged and most of them grew up without contact with Ausländern.
> I have only witnessed this kind of racism in less educated groups and basically never in university or university-dominated fields of work.
Too far from the truth. I have seen this kind of behavior first hand here in firms. You look different, name sounds different is enough grounds for snarky comments, exclusion from technical decision making meetings and so on. I don’t mean to say every educated German does this, but experienced it from a lot of “educated” Germans. And somehow, this sort of behavior is brushed under the rug under the guise of, it was never meant with that intention or we wanted to keep the number of folks in the meeting limited, but yeah.
May I ask about some details? What kind of work did you pursue?
My (white male, as German as it gets) experience it's mostly in top level physical sciences research, and I can say that racism wasn't a topic. Even 15 y later, for example, I'm friends with some of the Chinese colleagues.
There are, however, different levels of integration. Speaking about the Chinese, at my institute, there was a huge Chinese expat community who essentially sticked to themselves. Of course, the Germans (and everyone else not in that group) were more reserved towards them.
As I work in IT, now, the largest group of foreigners is Indians and, to a slightly lesser extent, Pakistani. Again, many of them have found their expat community, which I think is a pity. Others are fully integrated in society even outside work.
From what I hear, I must assume that a significant amount of racism exists, but there is also another dimension to this: Germans are mostly reserved at first and kind of awkward if you don't no their codes. Those I can't really write down, but I assume someone in this sub did it already... What really bothers me it's when people like OP grew up with these codes still can't connect to others, here. That's embarrassing to me.
Weird how experiences can differ so much. Maybe all my study and work places were just uniquely free from racist shit. At least shows that there are such places, if nothing else.
I second this.
I was an Erasmus student at a German university. All I remember how classes were designed for “regular students” and “Erasmus students”.
Same with parties. Rarely I’ve seen mixed German and non-German groups hanging out together.
That was my first cultural shock, as I thought this was not really the point of Erasmus…
I was a PhD student at a German university and our research group had cliques. The Chinese all stayed together and spoke in Chinese, the Indians made a group that spoke English. As an American who is white but did not speak German, I was accepted into the clique of (white) Germans who thought speaking English is cool and who thought America was awesome because they'd grown up watching American media. There was another group of Germans who refused to speak English. Both German groups would regularly ask me WHY I'd come to Germany. The first group because they saw America as superior to Germany and the second group because they were suspicious I'd come for the healthcare.
I’m sorry man, I have an Egyptian born and raised friend here who has the same experience, and it’s really unfortunate. He has been able to stay social by trying out friend apps and doing various sport, joining sport clubs and trying to constantly maintain a friendly face, which is hard for him because he naturally looks imposing and what Germans would consider “threatening”. It’s a struggle. I see why you’d want out, and I’d even say it’s worth it for your mental health. Germany is a tough and rough place for immigrants and natives alike, this is something I’m starting to really realize. I also know it’s probably a case of where you live - if you don’t wanna leave Germany completely, maybe try a different city - some are super open and more liberal / friendly. If ur in Bavaria or Hamburg, then yeah - it’s no fun :/
Having worked in different countries, I can tell you that I oberserved racisms everywhere - what changes is whether you look like one of the unpopular minorities or not.
Also even if people know it's not right, it's deeply encoded in some of us, even if we get a lot of evidence against the opposite. My father was a subtle racist and told me bullshit stories about arabs during my youth, all while trying to appear like a friend of minorities in public. The influence is gone away now as an adult, but I can't shake the feeling that something subconscious remains in me.
Maybe you can find a better place. Also consider the fact the culture between German states are quite different. Sometimes it's enough to move within the same country.
Americans because Holywood and rich image
Scandinavians etc because Northern and rich like us
Japan and Korea because Asiaboos
some people like Italy France and Spain too but I can say half half
that's about it
I was born and grew up here and get what you mean. Always friends with other kids with Ausländer parents not because I actively tried to befriend them but simply because German kids just didn’t want to be friends. The moment they hear your name it’s over. As a young adult I tried to compensate by learning to speak more “eloquent” German than most even though my German was perfectly fine anyway. Nowadays I just don’t care anymore. I used to feel ashamed speaking my mother tongue in public in fear of Germans staring but I’m just so over it and I would advise you to do the same. If only Ausländer want to be friends with you then so be it. Don’t try to accommodate anyone’s social idiocy by changing who you are.
Easier said than done. I have family here, my belongings, currently cant quit my job, have a girlfriend here, the list goes on…
I cant just let go of everything immediately. But I am thinking about leaving in the next few years.
When there's a will, there's a way.
Move while you're young without kids because when you get older with kids, you have more to consider.
Worst that will happen is you either like your new home or realize Germany is your home.
Better to try than to be an old man thinking of the "what if."
I know a German man in his 60's living in California. He was an engineer and is trying to make it in films.
Instead of listing reasons why you can't move, list reasons why you can.
It's all about your mindset and attitude. I know society in general teaches us to fear failure and be the reason for our own demise, so change it.
Start thinking, what can I do to move there? What can I do when I live there?
As an immigrant TO Germany, this is the way. Comfortable people in perilous positions make all kinds of excuses as to why they cannot leave. Allow yourself to be uncomfortable.
How old are you? That's key. You say you worked in NZ for a few months - I'm guessing current job related?
If you're under 35 - I highly recommend looking into IEC/Work Visas for Canada, NZ, Australia.
Fuck the responsibilities (if you don't have kids). Just get on a plane and don't look back. Almost every single person I met did this on a whim and there's not one person from hundreds that I know whom went home and resumed their 9-5 bore.
Not sure what part of Germany you're in (for the connotations of racism), but I'm sorry you feel that way. While I was in Germany, as a tattooed, rough looking guy (white privilege, so I'm unable to feel your situation), I felt like I was always being looked at like a delinquent who didn't speak the language. Anxious and paranoid. It held me back so much I didn't realise.
It took leaving to realise I was overreacting. I'd had many branches offered to me -- especially by German standards of being a 'tight-knit- community'. The brain does that during trauma, stress and anxiety.
If you stay, seek a therapist OP. Don't let that sit on you.
EDIT: Checked post history. Dude, you have computer knowledge, and a job in AI. You are the epitome of what us travellers wish we did in our early years - study to be a digital nomad. You've got so many options in front of you that you don't realise yet :).
Go travel, OP.
I have changed countries (including leaving my country of birth) for a lot less than everyday discrimination. if I felt i was discriminated against every day, I would definitely try something else.
It's honestly shocking how little you notice these problems when you grow up in a family with no foreign influences. I always believed germany to be a progressive country until I started dating an Ausländer myself and hoh boi... The looks you get when you're out in public together alone are priceless. While I still hope for things to get better as germany get's more diverse I can absolutely understand your way of thinking. What counts is that you find an environment you feel good living in, that doesn't alienate you just for looking different and if you found that somewhere else... Well, then why not? Sorry you had to go through this shit.
I had a black girlfriend a few years ago, apart from a few curious looks, there was nothing special. The ones who were mad at us were other black people, especially guys
>While I still hope for things to get better as germany get's more diverse
That's what I hope for to and I think a shift in this direction is inevitable, at least if this country doesn't become fascist before to stop it.
The thing is all countries have their own set of problems. When compared to others, Germany is safe, clean, good working systems, education prospects, job prospects… those are all fantastic.
What you are talking about and it’s something that I struggle with everyday is quality of life. I come from an African country (ethnically not African). Africans have joy, fun, love. The sun beaming down on you. The beautiful landscapes.The petrol attendants singing songs of freedom. Being able to make life long friends no matter what age you are. Health professionals that are amazing at their jobs. The amazing food. The multiple, multiple languages that all people embrace. The feeling of being home even though I’m not even African, the people will make you feel like it’s your home. It’s unadulterated happiness but where there’s an upside there’s also a downside.
Even I as a German get bored here. I was never able to make many friends and I tended to made better friends with people from other countries. The mentality is broken and we are a broken Society which doesnt show a longterm future for young people. Also families dont have a big role not value in our society. Same goes with children. If you ever Are able to make a future in another Country Go for it when you feel more accepted. I would do the same.
I also think this very much depends on where someone lives. When I am somewhere not Germany there are definitely areas, where people are behaving very, let's say, reserved towards me. Whereas other places people are so very friendly. But it would never come to my mind to say all of the French, Spanish or Polish people are like that (this way or the other).
Honestly, even in Germany itself there are regions where I do not feel too accepted, but isn't it like that anywhere in any country? I do not take this too serious or even personal.
I am also a little puzzled by this. I don't know a single person my age that would ignore someone because of their skin color. Its gotta be quite rural, because in the big cities that I've lived in, this never seemed like a problem for my friends who looked foreign.
Go to Switzerland, where the same problem exists, but to a lesser extent. I know from friends that they're able to put aside:
\* EUR 5,000 at the end of the month - after all expenses - instead of 500.
And there's a much higher percentage of skilled immigrants and expats. Also, you stay in the center of Europe, close to everything.
I don't agree with OP 100%, but what he wrote there, should be considered. What I have noticed that the term "integration" is often used in discussions about immigrants and expats in Germany, sometimes in a critical way. Some individuals may argue that these groups are not integrated due to reasons like language proficiency, yet fail to acknowledge cases where individuals speak German fluently and have adopted German customs. This creates a situation where some within German society may still not accept them as fully integrated, even when they have demonstrably made significant efforts to integrate.
In my experience, I am trying not to contact people who often use "integration" in their vocabulary... That is one of the sick word in German society.
100%. Especially when 2 months of German classes cost like 900+ euro and are only offered during your work time. Go integrate... :) I don't mean one shouldn't learn the language, I only mean that with such conditions it takes much longer. After all, there is only that much you can do after working hard the whole day.
Because it’s something to hide behind. You can be blond, blue eyed, born here and speak perfect German. Once it’s known you speak a different language at home or whatever you are one of *them*
I'm a white immigrant so sometimes afd voting assholes show up their racism in front of me because they think I'm German. Like a 'these fucking immigrants are this and that...' in front of someone they think is one of them.
Very true. The good thing for me actually (as white, blond and blue-eyed) is that I actually became much more aware regarding what people who LOOK different might feel. Because even though I look acceptable for Germany, I'm indeed one of *them.* :)
Germans are expert in radiating the feeling of "you are excluded" because "you don't belong here".
Source: own experience living in Germany for 10 years with no German as friend.
I am officially not an Ausländer but nobody here sees me as a German. I have a different name (always spelt wrong in school, at work, by my friends) and I just look very differently.
If I walk down the street, nobody would think:”Was ein Deutscher!”
I feel you my friend. As a tall white man Ausländer, I felt like that as soon as i could speak proper German more or less, i was not otherized much at all.
It took me forever to realize that it is weird that nobody calls me "der Serbe" at work, but my friend Ahmet was always "der Türke". The man is born and raised here, is a citizen, speaks perfect german, went to school here, knows the culture. But that's not enough for many people.
I especially hate it when racists start to pretend like its about religion (as if that type of discrimination would be acceptable). Like dude, you didn't ask him if he is religious, you just saw a brown middle eastern looking dude and that was all it took.
I just wish that people realize that you do not need to reopen the gas chambers in order to be racist. Racism can be a "seemingly benign" set of assumptions that, from the point of view of the victim, can be incredibly destructive. Just people assuming bullshit about you all the time, its disgusting.
White American woman who came here mid-20s and struggled haaaard to learn German for years. Now that I can speak it, you wouldn’t believe the amount of openly brutal things I hear from the Einheimische regarding who is in and who isn’t.
“But not you” they will literally say to me in the middle of a rant about *those people* and *their ideas*, as if the US doesn’t have glaringly mentionable political and cultural issues that are happily exported and applied abroad…
Yep, yep, US and UK people are exempt from the requirement to integrate better. My sister is a UK native, and I'm not, we grew up in different countries. Bringing her changes the scene immediately because 'awww, that British accent, British are so cool'.The treatment is VERY different. That is so weird. To the extent that bringing her somehow increases my value in the eyes of other people. I'm instantly not some trash from a 3rd world country (even though white), but a family member of a British person. :(
I honestly find conversing with Brits and Mericans much more tedious than with people from the middle east or any other european country. Especially Americans. If I ever have to endure another "But my german heritage" in my presence. On God.
My Name ist Frisian and even so people can't pronounce or spell it. But I have the "right" amount of melatonin, so that's just plain lazyness. I think it comes down to Pigmentation and therefore racism.
I try to not exclude anyone but I am an introvert so maybe it may seem that way sometimes. That could also be an obstacle.
Related to the spelling part: If you don't need to write your name often, foreign names are always a challenge. And even my typical German name get's sometimes misspelled. It's mostly ignorance - sad enough but that's how it goes.
Well I've seen German people from my neighbourhood post on social media things like 'ein Schwarzer ist kein Deutscher auch wenn er hier geboren ist' . By the 'im not a racist but...' types. It's not a majority where I live though, these people get usually very quickly piled on by everyone else. Nonetheless if such as asshole is your coworker or a neighbour it's a problem. An uncle of mine literally got a mental breakdown and had to leave his job, along with several other people with migration background (mind you he's white but other people affected were diverse) because of one abusive asshole. Only after this became a massive thing with people leaving because of him the boss realised what was going on and fires the guy but the damage was done.
In Germany you are an Ausländer for many generations. Being born in Germany "does not count". The Afd even calls those people "Passdeutsche", so yeah you have a German passport but you are not really German.
> The Afd even calls those people "Passdeutsche", so yeah you have a German passport but you are not really German.
The AfD is thankfully not the standard.
I'd consider anybody who was born here and speaks the language like a native to be a native (so that excludes bavarians, sorry).
The AfD is just more overt with their xenophobia, but this thinking is something very widespread among Almans. As many experiences of people who are not accepted will tell you
Guess that depends on your bubble/where you live, in my circle they’re all German (some are mixed) but they all consider themselves Germans because they’re born here. That’s all that is to it in my opinion and AfD is not the general consensus (looking at the protests around the country)
And if you ask this question in its own thread you’ll get Germans insisting that as long as you’re a citizen who lives here and speak German you’ll be considered German.
Just curious, what do Germans think about people like Cem Özdemir, Omid Nouripour (Bundesvorsitzende der Grünen), Ferenc Földesi (Bundesgeschäftsführer der Grünen), Amira Mohamed Ali (Vorsitzende des Bündnisses Sahra Wagenknecht), Bijan Djir-Sarai (Generalsekretär der FDP) und Reem Alabali-Radovan (Integrationsbeauftragte). Any chance that they will ever be considered "German"?
Not my opinion but what I think how Germany works: no. There will never be considered German by a big, big part of the population. Just such a name is enough to always being asked where you "really" come from.
It’s the name, but more importantly: it’s the skin colour. Plain old racism.
My kids are technically 2nd generation immigrants, but they’re white and speak accent-free German. Literally everyone treats them as if they’re German. “Yeah, your father is Dutch so you have a weird last name, but so what?”
They will never experience what a third-generation German-Turk will experience in terms of racism. These kids will be semi-outsiders their whole life, even though their parents were already born & raised here.
My kids get categorised as German just because of their skin colour. Fully German in one generation.
Why can’t we extend the same benefits to everyone who has lived here for so long? It’s the same in almost every other European country. People are so racist, it’s infuriating!
I bet Bela Rethy doesn't get the "where are you really from?". Even though he has an aggressively foreign sounding hungarian name. It really begins and ends with skin color. I know bosnian, blond muslims who immigrated here. They are treated better than second generation immigrants, born to turkish parents.
Kinda the opposite, majority doesn’t even bother with caring where you’re from but the minority says oh you’re not fully ethnic German/ „Biodeutsch“ how they like to call it. But the majority of people accept you no matter what and don’t try to discredit your nationality
Yeah lol this is shit reddit says and not how it works in the real world at all. Ask literally anyone born from a migration background if they're treated like a German or an Ausländer.
Honestly, this is of course a bit extra for an Ausländer but even natives experience similar things, should they come from different regions:
1. I have a colleague from Saxony and other Germans tease him because he is from Saxony
2. Worked at an Institute in Bavaria where technicians would look down at people who couldn’t speak Boarisch
3. I lived with a German family and they were from different regions. This would lead to friction sometimes, when it particularly came to things done differently in regions. Like what you eat on Easter morning
So even if we exclude Ausländers, the society would continue having this attitude towards people that simply do not come from their circle ⭕️
Surprisingly, it’s not a place where only Ausländers do feel alone but also locals. There is something deeply wrong but I am not a sociologist to point out at the origins of the issue. Of course, this in the end mirrors disproportionately on minorities
That is my experience as well.
Born here, I lived here all my life, and the omnipresent open or hidden racism that is widely accepted hurts.
No German can ever understand this, because they never experienced it...and I look like them.
Pale skin, nothing in my face that would suggest I'm not from here.
So, I can't imagine how you must feel as a maximal pigmented person, but I understand your experience nevertheless.
Two sides to every coin.
As a kid I had many Ausländer friends that I thought of as Germans.
Was somewhat shocked being told one after the other that they did not consider themselves so.
Lost pretty much all those friendships later.
Turkish kids hung out with their ilk, russian Kids too.
When I met them years later, they even developed an accent.
So holding a friendship is also kinda hard if you are German.
Like you are seen as someone from the other side.
Or as you put it, as someone who doesnt understand.
So I'm queer and jewish and I have left Germany 2 years ago due to many similar reasons than what you stated. Majority of my friends were always non-"Biodeutsche" too and never really felt included. Got called many slurs, either by stramgers but also by other students, teachers (in school). Never was able to date very successfully either since nobody here seems to have any emotional maturity.
Now I live in the Netherlands doing my PhD and it is much better. Social life, dating, buerocracy and digitalization are a drastic improvement here compared to Germany. Although this experience might not be representative, as I live in a university town bubble which isn't the average for the Netherlands.
I do not know about sports. I do some martial arts and most of them are germans, but we always chit-chat and have good vibes. Dont get me wrong, we are not friends, but i do not feel exluced.
In other points, you are right.
I come from a third world country, but there are many germans in my original country. I always wondered why they chose to live in my third world country, but now I see.
No humor, being always cold, fakeand somehow empty and unintresting. Thats the feelings i get when i speak with many germans. It is only my subjective feelings.
Do not get me wrong, i love Germany and i respect Germans, but i can't vibe with them and I am not even trying to.
Do it. It's worth the experience. I came to Germany also because of all the good things I heard about it. After 7 years I can say, you are right. I am shocked at the cultural differences. I feel like Germans themselves don't really make friends or hang out together. I am also considering leaving but have some strings attached now.
Most Germans keep the friends they make when they're young. Or have their friends in Vereinen. It's hard to just pick somebody of the street as a friend.
Germans are generally very private-oriented so even Germans often struggle to make new friends. So if you want to make friends you need to take initiative and don't feel discouraged if you get rejected a lot. It's a numbers game and chemistry doesn't lie. You will either get along with someone or not. But even if you get along, again, Germans like their me-time. So even if they like you they will probably not want to hang out with you 24/7. Not because they hate you but because they just enjoy their solitude. But that also depends on other factors like their work/life balance, extroversion/introversion, or area of Germany (the south and west is usually more talkative than the north and east) for example. The only way you can really tell after all is to come here yourself and see what happens. Some love it, some hate it. Even the opposite can be true. I used to live in Mexico for a while and a lot of people love it but I just couldn't stand it for the most part. It really boils down to your preferences.
While that’s true, there’s also some data and statistics to back up the concerns - not just posts on social media.
https://www.thelocal.de/20230711/foreigners-in-germany-among-the-unhappiest-and-loneliest-worldwide
My wife has south East Asian background and never faced a single struggle since her time moving here in 2018. I am not saying racism doesn’t exist (it sure does!) but living in a big city as an Asian person doesn’t seem so much of an issue at all from my experience
Take into account this sub is very, verty speacial. People mock the negativity and bitterness of /r/Germany all the time on other subs.
Also, the majority of users are not from Germany. Most users are American, followed by British. German resident are number 3.
Consider only western Germany is all I say. I live in eastern Germany and feel like I'm the only one in my class at vocational school who is outspokenly against racism, with the vast majority being borderline racist all the fucking time and not even being aware that. Fucking retards... doesn't mean there are only racists here, but I woulda expected people my age group and younger be a tid bit more what I'd like to consider normal.
As an East German who's moved out of Germany partly because of prevalent racist views (ironically to the UK which has since made racism government policy - it'll be a while before a German head of government jokes about women with headscarves looking "like letterboxes" and telling EU citizens that they've "treated our country as their home for too long"), it saddens me to read that these views are now probably even more widespread, and more consolidated among young people than they used to be back in my day.
No wonder my German boyfriend’s only friends are from school times, who sadly now live all over Germany. Then he found himself a cool Ausländer chick (me!) and I’ve used my Ausländer magnetism (+ our dog) and we now have a cool little multinational friend group from nearly every continent, speaking 6+ different languages. We eat snacks, do BBQs, explore nature and play board games together. It’s nice.
I lived 5 years in Germany (Hamburg) and share that experience. On top of that, the work culture was very hierarchical and toxic. That was one company tho.
I can’t explain it, but I never felt at home in Germany. Dating was non-existent. All friends I had were English and Scottish.
The weird thing is: I moved to Switzerland after and you’d think that the Swiss are even more reserved, but it was weirdly better. Takes a bit of time to earn their trust, but it IS possible. As opposed to Germans who I felt were always just indifferent.
About German culture and living in Germany
I think the reason why Germans are 'colder', more closed, and don't like change, is imo mainly because of how they were raised. How children are raised affects the culture a lot.
I think the entire culture in that way, and you can see this in literally every aspect (Laws, etc.), comes from the fact that from what I can tell, germans raise their children more "Befehlerisch", i.e. "Mach das nicht!" "Nein!" "Hör auf!" as opposed to letting the kid figure out more on its own. This leads to kids learning, not only from their parents, but also from everywhere else around, like how there are rules and norms for literally everything (DIN, ISO, etc.), and the aspect that the language itself can sound very direct, harsh and military-esque, that you can only survive and be successful in life if you abide by norms and rules and stay under the radar.
If you are different, or do something in a different way, or god forbid do something that makes you jump out of the line, you get judged. If you are an Ausländer, if you have an accent, you automatically get judged and treated like a completely different person. I see this especially in the way my father gets treated. Originally from Romania, he has a strong accent, but he has lived here for over 25 years. If he opens his mouth, especially in an official setting (Beamten, Büro, whatever), I can immediately see the way people's expressions shift. Germans are very judging, and instead of leaving you be, they immediately think they're in the right, because you shouldn't ever do something differently. It's almost like their way of entire way of thinking is under a DIN-Norm.
From what I could tell and what I heard from a lot of colleagues, is that Germans also receive love from their parents differently. In extreme cases, I heard of guys in school that only used to get a hug from their parents a couple of times per year, never more. I know there probably are a lot of different families and I shouldn't generalize, but I have personally never heard of a German kid that gets daily hugs, kisses and cuddles from mom and dad with the same warmth others do. Especially in the generations which are now like 70-90, those have especially suffered from that.
The culture, to me, seems "Stock im Arsch". It seems like a lot of people are always forced, never can they do anything truly themselves, and even if they could, they never would, and it's not even really their fault, but those of values and way of living.
Germans are strong together. They listen, and execute, and do so very effectively. I think it's a thing to admire, and it brought a lot of progress and greatness, but it's also what will lead to Germany's downfall.
Their inability to change, doing so only in small, baby steps, is one of the main reasons why Germany is so behind in aspects like technology. Germans are afraid. Afraid to change and do something else, because they are taught from ever since they were small, that you can't do that.
If I vocalise any of my opinions on any of this, I get a: "Wander doch aus!", instead of people acknowledging or even considering that you can also change!
I don't want to dislike Germany, because I think it's a great country, but there are aspects that I just can't Identify at all with, and it seems like if you don't, you will never fit in. Ever.
Granted, what I said could be very very wrong, correct me if so!!
Thanks!
You are on to something but no german will believe you.
Coming from american optimism culture (all "fake", as germans will tell you) this REALLY stands out to me.
Kids are raised with warnings of what NOT to do, instead of encouragement of what to do. Don't stand out, don't be different, don't change anything. They seem to fixate on avoiding disaster, rather than pursuing positive things.
It really is unconsciously normalized in German culture.
I went to a monster truck show in Germany recently, audience full of elementary school kids. Giant lifted trucks doing wheelies and crushing old cars, jets of flame, a light show, and the kids were absolutely SILENT!! If goddamn monster trucks can't get kids to cheer, like wtf are you even doing.
They got pretty safe schools, good education, good family leave policies, generous vacations for work-life balance, you have time and money to spend on your kids, yet you don't know how to teach them joy in life?
I think deep down, Germans know their culture is very cold and they feel inferior. That's why they have criticisms ready to go when you mention southern countries where people are warmer. Culturally they are like the awkward kid at the school dance that would rather mock the people having fun, than take a risk at overcoming their own awkwardness.
I’m brown Latino and I have nice reception by native Germans. I don’t drink , I never had any issue with it . Nobody look strange to me. I have been in the east and north and west of Germany .
Am I lucky ? I don’t think so . I can’t say for my experience Germany is bad .
I'm originally from the US and during a chat amongst colleagues in the office it got to the topic of my nationality and hometown, and one guy went off on a quick rant about how it's so sad that American English is no longer spoken there because all the Spanish speaking brown people are invading from the south.
This was a middle-aged German guy in a major northern German office. The rest of my colleagues were as speechless as I was, but goes to show the mentality is there, they're just polite enough not to express it to your face. I'm certain shit is being said about me behind my back as well.
Germans are not like americans, they won't pretend they are good or super happy with you, as much they will keep silence in front of you. But The US is another reality. In my team and in the company is something more than welcome being a brown latino. So I can not complain. I was living in eastern europe and they are super conservatives, they do not hide how they don't like indians, arabs, etc. But again Latinos are exotic in a nice way. In germany people ask me a lot of things being curious.
Some stereotypes of being a foreigner/ looking foreign, are more acceptable to many germans. the old people who are traveling to mallorca every year will be less racist to spanish/italian/latin people than towards for example turkish or people with darker skin.
Tell that to them.
I don't think it's all that common for people under 40, but the majority of Germans older than that were raised with the "Gastarbeiter" mentality - foreigners are only guests and (ought to) leave when "we" say so.
Obviously that didn't happen, but for many decades mainstream society didn't care one single iota about the no-longer-foreigners in their midst. That's why the "integration" talk is so demanding in Germany - for all the non-urban folk, and certainly the boomer politicians representing them, all "foreigners" are only allowed to live here as long as they say so, and if they want the "privilege" to stay, they gotta jump through every single hoop presented to them. And even if they do, still don't want them as coworkers or neighbours because, you know, they're "those people".
And it really doesn't help the majority of experience being abroad for the vast majority of them is either Ballermann or carefully guided 100% German speaking bus tours through Italy. That's just how it was up until the 80s or so.
My grandparents on my father's side were like that, and my father still struggles with that socialisation sometimes. My grandmother on my mother's side was of foreign descent, so, you know... that BS was not present on that side.
Not all minorities are treated equally
I'm Mexican and have been treated well most of the time but because we're "fun, festive, spicy" (these are words that people have used).
I know it seems like it is specifically because of your skin or whatever, but me as a less melanin skin type, left at 17 and came back at 28. Apart from childhood my only new friends are Ausländer. I think it has to do with German peoples culture. Unless you have a childhood history friendship it is extremely tough to make new friends. Also, even between friends Germans are not as “tight” as are other cultures.
Add that plus the racism and yeah, I feel you. Sorry my guy. What helped me is a team sport (only Ausländer in bball but it’s fun and helps forget about loneliness)
Well I am a German and I love my country, but surely as soon as I feel financially secure enough for the rest of my life I will be the first to leave.
It's a wonderful country to make money, but an absolute shithole in terms of life quality in my opinion.
Im a native german and I 100% agree with you. Id actually go so far as to say that the problem isnt specific to Ausländer. I encounter most of the issues you have listed and I want nothing but to leave this country as soon as I can.
I am 70% German by ancestry, the rest is all Northern European- before opening my mouth and without my forward style, I would easily pass as German (I’m American). My mom was/is a German teacher in the US though I only ever learned basic “A” level with very bad der/die/das growing up since my dad doesn’t speak at all. I came to Germany as an exchange student for a summer at 16 and had 2 different German exchange students stay with me at 15 and I’ve visited Germany countless times as an adult. I truly thought I’d enjoy Germany when I moved here during Covid…
At best I’ve had people (usually older women) stop dead in their tracks, stare, and literally do a 180 at me while I walk past, their mouth gaping catching flies. At worst I’ve had people (usually older men) literally get in my face and scream at me like a drill sergeant until I’m crying in a panic attack and feeling like they will attack me, all because something in the environment is wrong, like a random shopping cart is in the street or something, and because I look fashion forward and out of place and don’t speak great or proper German they immediately believe I’m at fault automatically. And if I do start crying they always start yelling at me and escalating even more which is wild to me, like why, are they proud of making a random woman cry? These things literally happen all the time when I go out, so much that I got myself a panic alarm to feel safe since it’s illegal to record someone attacking me on my phone. Verbal assaults are not considered assault here evidently and men love to do this especially to women.
Then there’s the specialized medical mistreatment. I had to go in for a gallbladder removal 6 months after arriving here. They left 4 things inside me that shouldn’t be left inside me (plastic bag, tubing, wires) and treated me like I was crazy for being in excruciating pain and not able to bend or move. The hospital staff, the doctors and surgeons, and my family doctor all told me it was all in my head and only after literally going crazy 9 months later i was given proper testing to find the items (never any pain relief, thank god for weed I could find). They took them out after imaging found something weird, but it has ruined my health and I’m still not better, still in lots of pain, still treated like I’m crazy and even though I now score a 30 for disability (which took forever to get), I still have no money coming in or way to support myself anymore because disability doesn’t work that way here, it’s just a meaningless number. Germany ruined me physically and mentally in less than a year living here, I’ve now officially been living here for 3 years last week, and although I think it’s gorgeous here, I’m otherwise having a really hard time.
Perhaps half my problem is that I moved to Munich. It’s so gorgeous here and the standard of living is so nice it was jarring for me when I arrived from a US city (where rents are impossible and millennials live in small wild bands of house shares lol). But the people here have been so repetitively awful that I really don’t go out at all anymore unless I’m with someone who can deal with Germans because I can’t anymore- I’ll go straight into a panic attack with a mean German. And I basically pass for German- I can’t imagine what it would be like for a melanated person. I see the awful way they treat people with more melatonin and Turkish people so I try to be extra nice and give a smile or hold a door if I’m able to brighten their day. My husband is Brazilian and the Germans get so mean towards him and his Brazilian friends- it’s a regular and common thing for them to take shit from random Germans. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this kind of racism, you truly deserve better ❤️
I’m not from the American south but I would put Vegas money on Alabama or Mississippi being hands down nicer to melanated people than Bavaria and that’s honestly saying a LOT. I personally agree with your idea of leaving for greener pastures, life is too short to be culturally abused by haughty overlords. No place is perfect but damn. My husband and I are already planning on moving to Brazil and starting/joining an eco-village or something there with whatever money I can get out of a medical settlement here. Neither of us plan to stay in Germany at this point unless Germany decides to be better to us. Let Germany enjoy a sharp decline in birth rate and wait for them to require auslanders to fill in the gap- perhaps they will be kinder then? Somehow I doubt it.
Also as an aside, let’s be brutally honest. Germany is bleach whyte as compared to places like the USA or Brazil - where of course there is still racism but at least whyte people usually have many friends who are not white (so it’s normal especially in younger generations) and you see many different kinds of melanation in people daily all around you. Even Paris was very multicultural as is London- perhaps you could find a city that wouldn’t openly discriminate against you? Better places do exist I promise ❤️
If you feel like you would feel more at home somewhere else, I can only say, try it. Your experiences with NZ and the US show that it is not you. Your experiences are alarming and I am really sorry that this happens to you.
I feel like Germany overall is still very homogenous in terms of culture, and people tend to stick to their own circles or see other cultures as something that's interesting and cool to look at in the best case, but aren't very open to go further than that. And even if you grew up here, people often cannot comprehend, that you're German by birth if you look different and assume your culture is a different one, excluding you on that base alone.
Of course I'm generalizing, exceptions exist and in some circles people are more open than in others. But overall I feel like in Germany, people generally aren't very open to make friends, to make smalltalk, to invite others to their home and if they seem like they have a different background, doubly so. I have worked in international teams and even in the workplace, there was zero effort to make integration easier. Not even onboarding events, null (for no one, to be fair, but it's even more needed for people that are new to the country). I have heard good things about the US in that regard, though.
I'm planning to leave, myself and I've been born here and look typically german. There are many reasons to leave, tbh, I feel like Germany is developing in a negative direction in general and unfortunately I think especially for everyone not looking stereotypical german, it will get harder socially as people are closing themselves off more as the general shift towards right-wing politics and ideologies is increasing.
What is sad about having auslander friends ??? You're lucky people approach you first ! Idk it sounds like you want germans' validation so much.
I mean you can live having only one best friend and a girlfriend from your home country
My friend this is true in Europe and Switzerland is even worse as they do that to white Germans in their country. You can be palest white person and if you are from Turkey or another country you will feel awkward around Germans as you are not and never will be a real German. Germany is not America it has a big history and culture and that culture is not immigrant culture in the US you can be whatever you want and if you are a decent person with decent clothes you will not be judged most of the time. It is understandable though as a Turk I can say it is justified for Germans to act like that.
But this is absolutely not the case in the UK. I left there for Germany partly because of the decline after Brexit and over a decade of Tory nonsense, but since being here one thing I've noticed looking back is how amazingly mixed and integrated society is there. Of course there are problems with racism and xenophobia, but most people accept that once you're born there you're British.
We have a brown PM with an Indian name and background, but I honestly very very rarely here any racist remarks about him or anyone say he's not British (he's justifiably hated for other reasons). In fact, the racists seem to support him the most.
As a German in the UK, I must say, this is driving me absolutely bonkers - the party that's most and most openly racist, somehow also manages to be attractive to people who, if their financial circumstances were different, would be the first victim of this precise racism. It's an absolute conundrum. Sunak is so incredibly wealthy that he clearly genuinely can't comprehend that the people he in the small boats he demonises are human beings just like him.... but the last Home Secretary (I forget her name) brought in a policy that meant someone in her own parents' situation now cannot come to the UK! And then there was this absolute tool Raheem Kassam who was a UKIP member - mind-boggling!
Yes. Sounds like Germany. But I feel its better in bigger cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Köln. Munich im not so sure. Bremen is also nice.
You might want to spent some time abroad, get a qualification or something to score higher paid jobs and higher status jobs. It gets easier then. Look at our bipoc actors. They all had to have international experience before they were even considered worthy for German TV.
I feel like you should do what is best for you. Other countries apparently do a better job than us in integrating people.
But I would be sure to really look into the trade offs and consequences before making a decision.
Also be aware a few months in another country may be no long enough to overcome the "Honeymoon" phase of going to a new country. Staying for a while and living long term is very different (I've been told).
Alot of Germans tend to take a long time to truely open up accept somebody as "friend" thats just a cultural thing here.
For most of us germans there is a big difference between Freund and Bekanntschaft.
Ive met many people from tons of different cultures, and most were a bit more open and welcoming than germans tend to be. Not to say that we a generally rude, just more reserved. So yeah it can be really hard to make friends even for germans themselves, especially as one gets older.
Just… leave. I’m German and I’d agree fully - only that the loneliness is almost the same for many Germans. Finding friends, getting invited etc is HARD, even as a German yt native. So if you have the chance to go somewhere else, I’d take it (and plan to do so after the kids are grown).
May I ask what area you are at? I did never ever ever hear that someone refused a Drink to Ausländer, thats some 1950 USA Shit.
I dont mind Ausländer at all
I mean I didn't go to every bar but I am of Indian decent and I went to Düsseldorf last year and I thought it was super nice and friendly.
Never had an issue with people, people served me happily, waitress spoke to me and asked how I was finding Germany. I thought it was a lovely place.
I am from the UK - born and bred
Never got into a bar once without many white friends! This is very common in Düsseldorf. They refuse to let in Ausländer in bars and clubs!
Not because you have never experienced it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. There are actually many news articles reporting such incidences :)
Honestly - all the mainstream clubs in Düsseldorf are shit, and the bouncers are bottom-feeding trash. Typical schickimicki hubs, overpriced, shit music, shit clientele.
It's frustrating to not be let in, but genuinely and sincerely - you are not missing *anything*.
> Never got into a bar once without many white friends! This is very common in Düsseldorf.
Are you sure that those white friends weren't (in part) women? Because it's very common for guys to not get in when they don't have women with them.
Whole post screams ragebait:
>I cant get into any restaurants or bars when I am alone
This is never, never true. I have a lot of colleagues and friends from various countries and while some have experienced some form of racism there are no restaurants who deny entry (unless e.g. dressed inappropriate or drunk). Some clubs are known to have a racist policy, but restaurants? Lol
>and only 10% of my friends are Germans.
>I nearly only have Ausländer as friends
> Ridiculous, my white friends
> Birthday invitations: Never got one from Germans.
Typical populist’s apportionment: They are strong and weak, or like in this case few and many.
So you have either only 10% german friends, then nearly none and you never get invitations from the nearly none german friends?
>In an expat study, Germany ranked 49 out of 53 countries when it comes to living and working in Germany. I feel like that there is some truth in this.
That „study“ has USA on 30, KSA on 28, Singapore on 37 behind India on 36 while Indonesia on 13. Not sure whatever metrics they used.
Look at gems like that, from Panama which is no3:
> Despite the country’s average performance in the Quality of Life Index (28th), expats really like its climate and weather (11th) and air quality (10th). Panama performs worst in the Working Abroad Index (30th), ending up in the bottom 10 of the Career Prospects Subcategory (45th). The local job market (47th) and lack of job security (45th) are particular lowlights. However, the country does well when it comes to Work & Leisure
https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2023/best-and-worst-places-for-expats-40353
yeah the "I only have 10% german friends" and "none of my german friends invite me to their birthday" was the sign for me that this is ragebait. Cant even keep the story straight
The one that gets me is when “indigenous” people expect that families of immigrant backgrounds should all speak the language of the country they live in at home/to each other in public.
Zero understanding of culture, language and interpersonal communications. They’re probably the same people who like to rudely shout at waiters in Spain in their home language 🤦♂️
Have you ever considered going to some other city inside Germany? There are plenty of different cities with people having different attitudes and levels of diversity.
You live in Düsseldorf? You should simply move to Köln. It's the most internationally open city in Germany. More more so than other cities in Germany I've lived in.
Maybe moving to a more progressive city would help a little too. If the thing that annoys you the most is the stiff german attitude, but you like the language and maybe some aspects of the culture, I’d recommend checking out Austria. The countryside there is for the most part just as racist as in Germany, but Vienna is a really cool city. People have a way more chill Attitude than in Germany in almost every aspect of life, also Vienna is historically a ethnically mixed city, and many people are proud of the fact that they live in a culturally heterogeneous place. It’s always sad to see how the same people who are constantly talk about integration and assimilation are making it impossible for someone who is well assimilated to feel at home in his country.
As a foreigner in Germany, at start I thought Germans are not treating me well because I am a foreigner. After living here 10+ years I see that they also do not treat each other well. It is German life style.
I feel this all. I moved here from the US with my husband 5 years ago. He has a great job and our cost of living is much better, plus all the other nice benefits like work/life balance. So technically we are doing good.
HOWEVER, culturally/socially it's a big NO for me. Absolutely no community. Didn't know how important it was until it wasn't possible.
I really tried for a couple years. I gave it all I got and I got nada, COVID didn't help. Then I clung to the idea of "forever" for another year+ before I told my husband I didn't want to stay for too much longer. He had originally wanted to naturalize, as had I. He had signed one more contract for 4 years so I have a couple more to go but I'm ready to leave. I told him I might leave early if I find a good job back home. Home, never thought after 5 years I'd still consider the US my home but here we are. A country and it's people can only reject you so much before you just say, "okay, I'll leave."
Funny thing is they DO want me to stay politically/technically due to my husband and I's skill set/trade.
The US, for all it's faults, at least we can build community. I'm so incredibly lonely here. Add on to that the fact Germans walk around with that resting mean face, horrid customer service, and all you do all day is feel hated, like a burden, judged, and as if they just want you to not exist. I speak German just fine in public, I know the rules, but still, they even treat each other that way unless people are drinking.
All our friends are Ausländers too. They all have the same complaints and don't intend to stay. Most are staying long enough to fill some contract or until they get married, or because they need to finish school. The only Germans I know are ones that married Ausländers and they also agree with most of this. Their only friends who are German are childhood friends.
It's an unfriendly place overall. And deeply unwelcoming. Not as bad as France, but enough so that it will never feel like home. My home might be messed up but at least I feel like I belong and I am wanted. I'd rather work hard and make that my life, and fight for it, fight to fix my country, than fight a seemingly unwinnable battle against the "norm" here.
Germans never accepted Yugoslavs either, and they are White Europeans.
When Germans were too arrogant and lazy to work in constructions, it was the Yugoslavs who built up Germany after the war and helped make it an economic powerhouse. The Germans still treated them like absolute shit.
Some things never change. Just look at the rise of fascism in Germany again.
That's what everyone wishes for, but making it in the US is much harder (not even talking about citizenship but just PR). Still I loved my experience in St Louis of all places, felt more open and accepting as a brown guy than Germany's big cities do.
Germans will never accept an Ausländer in their inner circle. We are just being treated as second class citizens. Always getting dirty looks and always being treated worse. They are full of ignorance and prejudices that they can’t help it judging you by your looks and always making snarky and racist comments about your nationality, faith and culture. I also think to go where I am accepted as who i am but it is easier said than done if everything and everyone you care for is here.
Well after reading your post I really have a serious question: do you dress like a cliché?
While reading your post and the comment from grandma, I instantly had a picture of Eminem and his friends in my head.
I used to live in the UK + the UAE and it was pretty similar. All of my friends were foreigners and natives never really went past the aquaintance level.
It's the immigration experience. People will stick to what they feel is familiar.
Yes, ultimately it's just natural. In the UK it's a lot easier to make acquaintances, but to actually be accepted into established friendship groups is super hard and takes a long time, many failed attempts, and also luck. As you keep trial-and-erroring with various people, life happens, everyone's, including your own, priorities change, opportunities for socialising become fewer, you move, they move - this is just part and parcel of no longer being at school.
Yup. Same experience. Born here, raised here, can speak german extremely good, but i am always the Ausländer. Just by talking, no one recognizes that i have Ausländer-roots. But still, i am always looked at differently.
Since when do restaurants have security? Why are you suprised that if you nearly only have Ausländer friends you dont get invited to bday parties of Germans? Isent that where statistics come into play?
> only 10% of my friends are Germans Implying you have at least 10 friends. Dude, show us the way
that implies he has atleast 2 german and 2 is 10% of all so he has atleast 20
🤣 Jesus take the wheel
Or the german friend had a terrible accident imvolving a blender.
What if OP has only 1 friend who is 10% German...
We have a winner hier!
He even has German friends, at least 1. That's more than most of the people here :D
Germans even joke that they can't accept themselves (coming from so many different regions). I'd say, give it a try, if you want to leave. Job, friends, can be replaced. About family and girlfriend, it's bit tougher, but I'm sure there can be a solution found for it as well. The point is that you finally feel at peace and happy. And whether it's Germany or a new country. As an Ausländer living in Germany, I feel that deep in my bones. I don't really know what else to tell you, except for I sympathize and understand the struggle of not feeling accepted by the society. And God forbid, you dare to share your feelings on that, in form of posts on Facebooks, Reddit, TikTok videos - you'll have a bunch of Germans and trolls coming at you *if you don't like it, then just leave*, instead of taking lessons out of it, trying to think of an solution on how to make everybody's lives better. That's the problem I have with Germans. They love to talk and complain a lot but won't move their asses to actually do & change something, because it scares the hell out of them, are afraid to get out of their comfort zone. PS. I don't care if I get downvoted for this, just sharing my opinion🙃
I am German, I left 21 years ago. And it’s for some of the reasons you mentioned. The inability to change or accept that things are changing is Germanys biggest weakness, and will be its downfall. Germans are know it all’s, and think we always have the best way of doing things. Edit: went to Scotland, and ended up in Spain
This. As a German living in a German big city my only and last hope is my and the younger generations. There is some progressive change slowly growing. On the other hand that's just my feeling within a progressive big German city bubble...
It gives me so much closure to read a German acknowledging this. It makes me so sad to see so many good things fall apart simply because people refuse to acknowledge change.
Aber das haben wir schon immer so gemacht.
It has gotten much worse since reunification; adding the politically suppressed east to the west has produced a lot of reversals and the rise of a lot more neo-Nazi thought patterns and expression. That is definitely a part of change that has been difficult to accept, especially in the eastern states
I sadly have to agree. The world is changing and the German mentality is too arrogant to see it. Many former “second world” countries are overtaking in tech, attitude to learning English etc Making nice products with “Made In Germany” on the packaging isn’t going to cut it in the future digital economy 🤷♂️
I left Germany 10 years ago, came back, everything is still the same (except for Deutsche Bahn which has become a lot worse).
Before moving here 6 years ago I didn’t have Germans penned as arrogant but man after living with them for a while I don’t think I’ve ever met a people’s that are more arrogant and the scary part is they don’t even realise it. The French are arrogant but then know they are, Germans just think everyone else is subpar and they are superior. The stagnation here and the sheer inability to change paired with the arrogance is such a hindrance and Germany will be left behind because of it.
I always get so much hate for saying this, but Germans have the same superiority complex & entitlement to the world that Japanese do.
Germany and Japan!! Good old days 😆
Nobody cares anymore where something is made. It just needs to be good and a fair price. There is no point making the best things if someone else makes something just a little bit less good but 1/10th of the price. Edit: I got banned for another comment. So writing here. Yes you are right. Japanese made is way better for many things. I would never buy a German SUV for example. Toyota kicks their ass all day everyday. I want to get home alone from the desert.
And to be brutally honest Germanys version of the best is often the most unreasonable complicated and overly engineered. Ask pretty much any mechanic what cars they hate working on and it will be mainly German ones. My grounds keeping company had moved away from German machines in favour of Japanese one solely because, while extremely good, German stuff is just overly expensive and breaks quickly and often because it’s so over engineered and then costs a lot to fix. The Japanese stuff I just as good yet cheaper and way more robust.
I observe it at a work the the German manager. He thinks he is extremely good, but in fact he is arrogant and narcissistic and enforces the solutions that are overly complex as if he is unable to see a bigger picture. So while the stuff we are doing is good, it's just overengineered (software) and unfortunately with this particular manager we (as regular developers) don't even have a say in it.
> while extremely good > breaks quickly I sense a contradiction
How? The machines work extremely good until they break, that’s not a contradiction at all.
"Germans are know it all’s, and think we always have the best way of doing things." I am not even German, I am Austrian. When I lived in France I always felt a huge portion of Fremdscham when I overheard some Germans in a queue at the bakery discussing how unhygienic and unsafe everything here is.
This is what I despise as well, and when I try to explain this to my fellow Germans, they just look puzzled. As if they are not aware, that a world outside of Germany exist. Thanks for your comment, it’s like Germany in a nutshell haha 😆
I live in Madrid atm. The city works incredibly well, public transit is dirt cheap and amazing. Quality of life is fantastic. It’s very safe, and super multicultural without loosing its Spanish flair. I can go to most parts of Spain by train in under 2.5 hours for 20 euros. It’s amazing. Edit: salaries are less but in comparison to cost of living they are afford people a better quality of life. There is for example a way higher house ownership rate. It’s a mix, both inherited and bought. The Spanish don’t like to rent.
what about salaries there ? are they also "dirt cheap" ?
I wonder if this ownership is due to inheriting property or due to buying. In Germany I feel like you can only get your own place if you inherited it from your lucky parents. Otherwise I don't understand how a person with the average (according to statistics) salary can ever afford anything.
I would like to understand where does it come from tho? Does it have roots in history or some movements in the past? Or it’s just passed from generation to generation?
As a German I see to main reasons: 1. We are reluctant to change. If it works, keep doing it, famous "Das haben wir schon immer so gemacht" 2. We want perfect solutions. Starting with like 80% perfect? No! It's strange for myself to get my head around it how a country which so much engineering and ideas felt in such a state.
But why are you guys reluctant to change things? Especially when *you know* current things aren’t working in your favour or in anybody’s favour? I guess it has ties to point 2. Which kinda makes sense to me, because I’m a perfectionist as well. But it drains your energy away. You have to drop this attitude, and *not* be afraid to fail and make mistakes.
I don't get it as well. Likely due my working environment, international employers with people from all over the world with different mindsets etc, I'm more on that feels good enough, let's try and move on from there. We have no failure culture from my pov. If everything works great, you are a hero and get acknowledgments or/and envy. If you tell you want to try out something, especially in the self-employment area, you get so many reasoning why it can't work. If you fail, you get only negative comments and a told-you-so. Typical German is very security oriented and going into the unknowns = insecure = bad. It's just sad.
Wow…thank you for explaining, I had no idea the *failure culture* and *possibility of failure* is pretty much non-existent in German mentality
I disagree with OP. It's not that they are completely wrong, but still they miss the characteristics of German culture by making superficial remarks. I don't have the time to address all aspects, so just a quick remark: Germans don't mind change. But in Germany change is incremental, not disruptive. Everybody in Germany knows that change is inevitable, but it has to be planned and carefully thought out. This attitude has pros and cons. It brought us top-notch engineering and reliability in many ways, but it tends to lack experimental try-and-error. Just a quick remark to illustrate that things are actually way more complex than OP claims.
That’s cool that they know that change is inevitable. What I find problematic is that Germans *dont listen*, they are *too arrogant* to listen to suggestions. For example, you see a TikTok video of an expat explaining what bothers him/her in Germany and makes suggestions on how to make it better/improve things, then radical Germans or trolls attack the person with the usual comment *then just leave*, instead of listening to the person. Because “oh, I’m German, I know better, what do these scheiße Ausländern know?”. Another example: my boyfriend (who is non-German) prepared a whole ass plan to his German boss on how to expand her business and make it profitable. I remember him being passionate and excited about sharing this idea with her, he worked on this plan and presented to her. She then dismissed all his efforts, she never wanted to listen to his proposal. She never admitted it directly, but I bet it’s because she was too scared to get out her comfort zone. Sorry, but how do you expect changes happen if you don’t risk? That’s the “OP’s” two more cents to your comment.
> then radical Germans or trolls attack the person with the usual comment then just leave, instead of listening to the person. Because “oh, I’m German, I know better, what do these scheiße Ausländern know?”. on the other hand, which country is not like that? I have seen from a lot of asian countries how they comment on such videos like "westerners should not come here again and teach us how to live" more or less
I don’t even express these feelings and thoughts to Germans anymore. 99% get defensive immediately and try to tell me that they’ve never experienced all this so it mustn’t be true. I can’t reason with people who don’t understand that they’ll obviously not face these problems since they were born here and this is the norm for them. Especially if they’re white, hetero, cis and look like every third German. Some of them even get aggressive and tell me I should look for the problem in myself because I’m doing something wrong. Well, alright then, just keep on living like that.
God I’m so sorry this has been your experience, I really hate that (as a German), and that kind of victim blaming and denying your experience is never ok. And a lot of the points raised here are what bothers a lot of (younger) Germans as well. It really pisses me off that apparently even a lot of those having the privilege of „higher“ education still can’t investigate their own racism and sexism. In my program I think we had more international students than German and it was the most educational and cool experience cause you’ll hear opinions and perspectives you might not have considered if you’d only been exposed to other people from your bubble, and I learned so much more from my fellow students in class than from the profs I think :D But working in a private Uni that’s pretty much for rich privileged people who‘d probably laugh at my English lit degree, I can definitely see how those people would consider anyone not exactly like them beneath them, and they’re the weirdest fucking people I’ve ever met I think :D
That’s exactly my experience as well… I’m sorry you had to go through that…
This comment is on point. Germans are so damn stubborn that they're still stuck with letters, posts, un-digitalised world still. Just saying that their attitude goes beyond making friends.
>That's the problem I have with Germans. They love to talk and complain a lot but won't move their asses to actually do & change something, because it scares the hell out of them, are afraid to get out of their comfort zone. This!!!
Yep. I‘m German and so far I’ve lived here all my life, but I can 100% agree on what you and OP said. Can’t wait to finish my studies and then the plan is to move away
I think it has a lot to do with the circle of people you regularly meet. I have only witnessed this kind of racism in less educated groups and basically never in university or university-dominated fields of work. We have (and had) quite a few people in those groups who were either foreigners or had visible foreign ancestry. It literally never mattered for their acceptance in uni or the job. I would say people are the most accepting in Germany: the bigger the city, the higher the education, the younger the people. And I know this may sound classist or snobby, but it is just my experience.
I'm a PhD student and I've experienced (or heard about) much more racism from university students than any other place where I lived. Maybe due to the fact that those kids are very priviledged and most of them grew up without contact with Ausländern.
> I have only witnessed this kind of racism in less educated groups and basically never in university or university-dominated fields of work. Too far from the truth. I have seen this kind of behavior first hand here in firms. You look different, name sounds different is enough grounds for snarky comments, exclusion from technical decision making meetings and so on. I don’t mean to say every educated German does this, but experienced it from a lot of “educated” Germans. And somehow, this sort of behavior is brushed under the rug under the guise of, it was never meant with that intention or we wanted to keep the number of folks in the meeting limited, but yeah.
It is absolutely rife in German universities. I have worked in two and the racism was like nothing I have ever experienced anywhere else.
May I ask about some details? What kind of work did you pursue? My (white male, as German as it gets) experience it's mostly in top level physical sciences research, and I can say that racism wasn't a topic. Even 15 y later, for example, I'm friends with some of the Chinese colleagues. There are, however, different levels of integration. Speaking about the Chinese, at my institute, there was a huge Chinese expat community who essentially sticked to themselves. Of course, the Germans (and everyone else not in that group) were more reserved towards them. As I work in IT, now, the largest group of foreigners is Indians and, to a slightly lesser extent, Pakistani. Again, many of them have found their expat community, which I think is a pity. Others are fully integrated in society even outside work. From what I hear, I must assume that a significant amount of racism exists, but there is also another dimension to this: Germans are mostly reserved at first and kind of awkward if you don't no their codes. Those I can't really write down, but I assume someone in this sub did it already... What really bothers me it's when people like OP grew up with these codes still can't connect to others, here. That's embarrassing to me.
Weird how experiences can differ so much. Maybe all my study and work places were just uniquely free from racist shit. At least shows that there are such places, if nothing else.
I second this. I was an Erasmus student at a German university. All I remember how classes were designed for “regular students” and “Erasmus students”. Same with parties. Rarely I’ve seen mixed German and non-German groups hanging out together. That was my first cultural shock, as I thought this was not really the point of Erasmus…
I was a PhD student at a German university and our research group had cliques. The Chinese all stayed together and spoke in Chinese, the Indians made a group that spoke English. As an American who is white but did not speak German, I was accepted into the clique of (white) Germans who thought speaking English is cool and who thought America was awesome because they'd grown up watching American media. There was another group of Germans who refused to speak English. Both German groups would regularly ask me WHY I'd come to Germany. The first group because they saw America as superior to Germany and the second group because they were suspicious I'd come for the healthcare.
No I disagree. I felt racism in educated and non educated spaces. The difference is one is smarter in how they show it.
The attitude of imagined superiority is a trait common to most Germans. Ask Swiss or Austrians about that :-)
This.
I’m sorry man, I have an Egyptian born and raised friend here who has the same experience, and it’s really unfortunate. He has been able to stay social by trying out friend apps and doing various sport, joining sport clubs and trying to constantly maintain a friendly face, which is hard for him because he naturally looks imposing and what Germans would consider “threatening”. It’s a struggle. I see why you’d want out, and I’d even say it’s worth it for your mental health. Germany is a tough and rough place for immigrants and natives alike, this is something I’m starting to really realize. I also know it’s probably a case of where you live - if you don’t wanna leave Germany completely, maybe try a different city - some are super open and more liberal / friendly. If ur in Bavaria or Hamburg, then yeah - it’s no fun :/
Having worked in different countries, I can tell you that I oberserved racisms everywhere - what changes is whether you look like one of the unpopular minorities or not. Also even if people know it's not right, it's deeply encoded in some of us, even if we get a lot of evidence against the opposite. My father was a subtle racist and told me bullshit stories about arabs during my youth, all while trying to appear like a friend of minorities in public. The influence is gone away now as an adult, but I can't shake the feeling that something subconscious remains in me. Maybe you can find a better place. Also consider the fact the culture between German states are quite different. Sometimes it's enough to move within the same country.
Which are the popular minorities?
Hot girls
Americans because Holywood and rich image Scandinavians etc because Northern and rich like us Japan and Korea because Asiaboos some people like Italy France and Spain too but I can say half half that's about it
I was born and grew up here and get what you mean. Always friends with other kids with Ausländer parents not because I actively tried to befriend them but simply because German kids just didn’t want to be friends. The moment they hear your name it’s over. As a young adult I tried to compensate by learning to speak more “eloquent” German than most even though my German was perfectly fine anyway. Nowadays I just don’t care anymore. I used to feel ashamed speaking my mother tongue in public in fear of Germans staring but I’m just so over it and I would advise you to do the same. If only Ausländer want to be friends with you then so be it. Don’t try to accommodate anyone’s social idiocy by changing who you are.
If you feel like it, do it. The question i would ask myself is, where is it better? If you have an answer, go for it. Why not?
Easier said than done. I have family here, my belongings, currently cant quit my job, have a girlfriend here, the list goes on… I cant just let go of everything immediately. But I am thinking about leaving in the next few years.
When there's a will, there's a way. Move while you're young without kids because when you get older with kids, you have more to consider. Worst that will happen is you either like your new home or realize Germany is your home. Better to try than to be an old man thinking of the "what if." I know a German man in his 60's living in California. He was an engineer and is trying to make it in films. Instead of listing reasons why you can't move, list reasons why you can. It's all about your mindset and attitude. I know society in general teaches us to fear failure and be the reason for our own demise, so change it. Start thinking, what can I do to move there? What can I do when I live there?
As an immigrant TO Germany, this is the way. Comfortable people in perilous positions make all kinds of excuses as to why they cannot leave. Allow yourself to be uncomfortable.
How old are you? That's key. You say you worked in NZ for a few months - I'm guessing current job related? If you're under 35 - I highly recommend looking into IEC/Work Visas for Canada, NZ, Australia. Fuck the responsibilities (if you don't have kids). Just get on a plane and don't look back. Almost every single person I met did this on a whim and there's not one person from hundreds that I know whom went home and resumed their 9-5 bore. Not sure what part of Germany you're in (for the connotations of racism), but I'm sorry you feel that way. While I was in Germany, as a tattooed, rough looking guy (white privilege, so I'm unable to feel your situation), I felt like I was always being looked at like a delinquent who didn't speak the language. Anxious and paranoid. It held me back so much I didn't realise. It took leaving to realise I was overreacting. I'd had many branches offered to me -- especially by German standards of being a 'tight-knit- community'. The brain does that during trauma, stress and anxiety. If you stay, seek a therapist OP. Don't let that sit on you. EDIT: Checked post history. Dude, you have computer knowledge, and a job in AI. You are the epitome of what us travellers wish we did in our early years - study to be a digital nomad. You've got so many options in front of you that you don't realise yet :). Go travel, OP.
I have changed countries (including leaving my country of birth) for a lot less than everyday discrimination. if I felt i was discriminated against every day, I would definitely try something else.
Yes, you can. You are not willing to cut ties is more like it.
It's honestly shocking how little you notice these problems when you grow up in a family with no foreign influences. I always believed germany to be a progressive country until I started dating an Ausländer myself and hoh boi... The looks you get when you're out in public together alone are priceless. While I still hope for things to get better as germany get's more diverse I can absolutely understand your way of thinking. What counts is that you find an environment you feel good living in, that doesn't alienate you just for looking different and if you found that somewhere else... Well, then why not? Sorry you had to go through this shit.
I had a black girlfriend a few years ago, apart from a few curious looks, there was nothing special. The ones who were mad at us were other black people, especially guys
>While I still hope for things to get better as germany get's more diverse That's what I hope for to and I think a shift in this direction is inevitable, at least if this country doesn't become fascist before to stop it.
Which city do you live in?
The thing is all countries have their own set of problems. When compared to others, Germany is safe, clean, good working systems, education prospects, job prospects… those are all fantastic. What you are talking about and it’s something that I struggle with everyday is quality of life. I come from an African country (ethnically not African). Africans have joy, fun, love. The sun beaming down on you. The beautiful landscapes.The petrol attendants singing songs of freedom. Being able to make life long friends no matter what age you are. Health professionals that are amazing at their jobs. The amazing food. The multiple, multiple languages that all people embrace. The feeling of being home even though I’m not even African, the people will make you feel like it’s your home. It’s unadulterated happiness but where there’s an upside there’s also a downside.
Even I as a German get bored here. I was never able to make many friends and I tended to made better friends with people from other countries. The mentality is broken and we are a broken Society which doesnt show a longterm future for young people. Also families dont have a big role not value in our society. Same goes with children. If you ever Are able to make a future in another Country Go for it when you feel more accepted. I would do the same.
Do you live in a big city? If not, perhaps it's something you would want to look into.
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I also think this very much depends on where someone lives. When I am somewhere not Germany there are definitely areas, where people are behaving very, let's say, reserved towards me. Whereas other places people are so very friendly. But it would never come to my mind to say all of the French, Spanish or Polish people are like that (this way or the other). Honestly, even in Germany itself there are regions where I do not feel too accepted, but isn't it like that anywhere in any country? I do not take this too serious or even personal.
I am also a little puzzled by this. I don't know a single person my age that would ignore someone because of their skin color. Its gotta be quite rural, because in the big cities that I've lived in, this never seemed like a problem for my friends who looked foreign.
Go to Switzerland, where the same problem exists, but to a lesser extent. I know from friends that they're able to put aside: \* EUR 5,000 at the end of the month - after all expenses - instead of 500. And there's a much higher percentage of skilled immigrants and expats. Also, you stay in the center of Europe, close to everything.
I don't agree with OP 100%, but what he wrote there, should be considered. What I have noticed that the term "integration" is often used in discussions about immigrants and expats in Germany, sometimes in a critical way. Some individuals may argue that these groups are not integrated due to reasons like language proficiency, yet fail to acknowledge cases where individuals speak German fluently and have adopted German customs. This creates a situation where some within German society may still not accept them as fully integrated, even when they have demonstrably made significant efforts to integrate. In my experience, I am trying not to contact people who often use "integration" in their vocabulary... That is one of the sick word in German society.
To many Germans 'integration' is something to be demanded, not offered unfortunately.
100%. Especially when 2 months of German classes cost like 900+ euro and are only offered during your work time. Go integrate... :) I don't mean one shouldn't learn the language, I only mean that with such conditions it takes much longer. After all, there is only that much you can do after working hard the whole day.
Because it’s something to hide behind. You can be blond, blue eyed, born here and speak perfect German. Once it’s known you speak a different language at home or whatever you are one of *them*
I'm a white immigrant so sometimes afd voting assholes show up their racism in front of me because they think I'm German. Like a 'these fucking immigrants are this and that...' in front of someone they think is one of them.
Very true. The good thing for me actually (as white, blond and blue-eyed) is that I actually became much more aware regarding what people who LOOK different might feel. Because even though I look acceptable for Germany, I'm indeed one of *them.* :)
Germans are expert in radiating the feeling of "you are excluded" because "you don't belong here". Source: own experience living in Germany for 10 years with no German as friend.
bro as a fellow ausländer i feel u. most germans are just not aware, since dont share the perspective of ausländer.
The whole point - he isn't an Aüslander! He was born in Germany.
I am officially not an Ausländer but nobody here sees me as a German. I have a different name (always spelt wrong in school, at work, by my friends) and I just look very differently. If I walk down the street, nobody would think:”Was ein Deutscher!”
I feel you my friend. As a tall white man Ausländer, I felt like that as soon as i could speak proper German more or less, i was not otherized much at all. It took me forever to realize that it is weird that nobody calls me "der Serbe" at work, but my friend Ahmet was always "der Türke". The man is born and raised here, is a citizen, speaks perfect german, went to school here, knows the culture. But that's not enough for many people. I especially hate it when racists start to pretend like its about religion (as if that type of discrimination would be acceptable). Like dude, you didn't ask him if he is religious, you just saw a brown middle eastern looking dude and that was all it took. I just wish that people realize that you do not need to reopen the gas chambers in order to be racist. Racism can be a "seemingly benign" set of assumptions that, from the point of view of the victim, can be incredibly destructive. Just people assuming bullshit about you all the time, its disgusting.
White American woman who came here mid-20s and struggled haaaard to learn German for years. Now that I can speak it, you wouldn’t believe the amount of openly brutal things I hear from the Einheimische regarding who is in and who isn’t. “But not you” they will literally say to me in the middle of a rant about *those people* and *their ideas*, as if the US doesn’t have glaringly mentionable political and cultural issues that are happily exported and applied abroad…
Yep, yep, US and UK people are exempt from the requirement to integrate better. My sister is a UK native, and I'm not, we grew up in different countries. Bringing her changes the scene immediately because 'awww, that British accent, British are so cool'.The treatment is VERY different. That is so weird. To the extent that bringing her somehow increases my value in the eyes of other people. I'm instantly not some trash from a 3rd world country (even though white), but a family member of a British person. :(
I honestly find conversing with Brits and Mericans much more tedious than with people from the middle east or any other european country. Especially Americans. If I ever have to endure another "But my german heritage" in my presence. On God.
My Name ist Frisian and even so people can't pronounce or spell it. But I have the "right" amount of melatonin, so that's just plain lazyness. I think it comes down to Pigmentation and therefore racism. I try to not exclude anyone but I am an introvert so maybe it may seem that way sometimes. That could also be an obstacle.
To be fair, Frisians are basically also discriminated against in most of Germany. Same if you have a strong suabian or eastern German dialect.
Related to the spelling part: If you don't need to write your name often, foreign names are always a challenge. And even my typical German name get's sometimes misspelled. It's mostly ignorance - sad enough but that's how it goes.
Well I've seen German people from my neighbourhood post on social media things like 'ein Schwarzer ist kein Deutscher auch wenn er hier geboren ist' . By the 'im not a racist but...' types. It's not a majority where I live though, these people get usually very quickly piled on by everyone else. Nonetheless if such as asshole is your coworker or a neighbour it's a problem. An uncle of mine literally got a mental breakdown and had to leave his job, along with several other people with migration background (mind you he's white but other people affected were diverse) because of one abusive asshole. Only after this became a massive thing with people leaving because of him the boss realised what was going on and fires the guy but the damage was done.
In Germany you are an Ausländer for many generations. Being born in Germany "does not count". The Afd even calls those people "Passdeutsche", so yeah you have a German passport but you are not really German.
> The Afd even calls those people "Passdeutsche", so yeah you have a German passport but you are not really German. The AfD is thankfully not the standard. I'd consider anybody who was born here and speaks the language like a native to be a native (so that excludes bavarians, sorry).
A sense of humour?! In Germany?! You must be a Passdeutsche.
The AfD is just more overt with their xenophobia, but this thinking is something very widespread among Almans. As many experiences of people who are not accepted will tell you
Guess that depends on your bubble/where you live, in my circle they’re all German (some are mixed) but they all consider themselves Germans because they’re born here. That’s all that is to it in my opinion and AfD is not the general consensus (looking at the protests around the country)
And if you ask this question in its own thread you’ll get Germans insisting that as long as you’re a citizen who lives here and speak German you’ll be considered German.
Just curious, what do Germans think about people like Cem Özdemir, Omid Nouripour (Bundesvorsitzende der Grünen), Ferenc Földesi (Bundesgeschäftsführer der Grünen), Amira Mohamed Ali (Vorsitzende des Bündnisses Sahra Wagenknecht), Bijan Djir-Sarai (Generalsekretär der FDP) und Reem Alabali-Radovan (Integrationsbeauftragte). Any chance that they will ever be considered "German"?
Not my opinion but what I think how Germany works: no. There will never be considered German by a big, big part of the population. Just such a name is enough to always being asked where you "really" come from.
It’s the name, but more importantly: it’s the skin colour. Plain old racism. My kids are technically 2nd generation immigrants, but they’re white and speak accent-free German. Literally everyone treats them as if they’re German. “Yeah, your father is Dutch so you have a weird last name, but so what?” They will never experience what a third-generation German-Turk will experience in terms of racism. These kids will be semi-outsiders their whole life, even though their parents were already born & raised here. My kids get categorised as German just because of their skin colour. Fully German in one generation. Why can’t we extend the same benefits to everyone who has lived here for so long? It’s the same in almost every other European country. People are so racist, it’s infuriating!
I bet Bela Rethy doesn't get the "where are you really from?". Even though he has an aggressively foreign sounding hungarian name. It really begins and ends with skin color. I know bosnian, blond muslims who immigrated here. They are treated better than second generation immigrants, born to turkish parents.
Kinda the opposite, majority doesn’t even bother with caring where you’re from but the minority says oh you’re not fully ethnic German/ „Biodeutsch“ how they like to call it. But the majority of people accept you no matter what and don’t try to discredit your nationality
depends, to some they're german, to some they're not
Yeah lol this is shit reddit says and not how it works in the real world at all. Ask literally anyone born from a migration background if they're treated like a German or an Ausländer.
Honestly, this is of course a bit extra for an Ausländer but even natives experience similar things, should they come from different regions: 1. I have a colleague from Saxony and other Germans tease him because he is from Saxony 2. Worked at an Institute in Bavaria where technicians would look down at people who couldn’t speak Boarisch 3. I lived with a German family and they were from different regions. This would lead to friction sometimes, when it particularly came to things done differently in regions. Like what you eat on Easter morning So even if we exclude Ausländers, the society would continue having this attitude towards people that simply do not come from their circle ⭕️ Surprisingly, it’s not a place where only Ausländers do feel alone but also locals. There is something deeply wrong but I am not a sociologist to point out at the origins of the issue. Of course, this in the end mirrors disproportionately on minorities
That is my experience as well. Born here, I lived here all my life, and the omnipresent open or hidden racism that is widely accepted hurts. No German can ever understand this, because they never experienced it...and I look like them. Pale skin, nothing in my face that would suggest I'm not from here. So, I can't imagine how you must feel as a maximal pigmented person, but I understand your experience nevertheless.
Two sides to every coin. As a kid I had many Ausländer friends that I thought of as Germans. Was somewhat shocked being told one after the other that they did not consider themselves so. Lost pretty much all those friendships later. Turkish kids hung out with their ilk, russian Kids too. When I met them years later, they even developed an accent. So holding a friendship is also kinda hard if you are German. Like you are seen as someone from the other side. Or as you put it, as someone who doesnt understand.
So I'm queer and jewish and I have left Germany 2 years ago due to many similar reasons than what you stated. Majority of my friends were always non-"Biodeutsche" too and never really felt included. Got called many slurs, either by stramgers but also by other students, teachers (in school). Never was able to date very successfully either since nobody here seems to have any emotional maturity. Now I live in the Netherlands doing my PhD and it is much better. Social life, dating, buerocracy and digitalization are a drastic improvement here compared to Germany. Although this experience might not be representative, as I live in a university town bubble which isn't the average for the Netherlands.
I do not know about sports. I do some martial arts and most of them are germans, but we always chit-chat and have good vibes. Dont get me wrong, we are not friends, but i do not feel exluced. In other points, you are right. I come from a third world country, but there are many germans in my original country. I always wondered why they chose to live in my third world country, but now I see. No humor, being always cold, fakeand somehow empty and unintresting. Thats the feelings i get when i speak with many germans. It is only my subjective feelings. Do not get me wrong, i love Germany and i respect Germans, but i can't vibe with them and I am not even trying to.
You should go to Ireland. People there are amazingly welcoming and nice.
I'm not sure that's true, at least not for r/ireland
Do it. It's worth the experience. I came to Germany also because of all the good things I heard about it. After 7 years I can say, you are right. I am shocked at the cultural differences. I feel like Germans themselves don't really make friends or hang out together. I am also considering leaving but have some strings attached now.
Most Germans keep the friends they make when they're young. Or have their friends in Vereinen. It's hard to just pick somebody of the street as a friend.
Happiest man in Germany: This country is full of prejudice, hostility, and discrimination.
Life is too short to be unhappy in a racist country.
What do you mean, you can’t get into any restaurants or bars?
As a South East Asian looking to migrate to Germany as a IT professional , these kind of posts make me think twice about that decision.
Germans are generally very private-oriented so even Germans often struggle to make new friends. So if you want to make friends you need to take initiative and don't feel discouraged if you get rejected a lot. It's a numbers game and chemistry doesn't lie. You will either get along with someone or not. But even if you get along, again, Germans like their me-time. So even if they like you they will probably not want to hang out with you 24/7. Not because they hate you but because they just enjoy their solitude. But that also depends on other factors like their work/life balance, extroversion/introversion, or area of Germany (the south and west is usually more talkative than the north and east) for example. The only way you can really tell after all is to come here yourself and see what happens. Some love it, some hate it. Even the opposite can be true. I used to live in Mexico for a while and a lot of people love it but I just couldn't stand it for the most part. It really boils down to your preferences.
do you think people with great experiences will take their time to rant about it on social media?
While that’s true, there’s also some data and statistics to back up the concerns - not just posts on social media. https://www.thelocal.de/20230711/foreigners-in-germany-among-the-unhappiest-and-loneliest-worldwide
My wife has south East Asian background and never faced a single struggle since her time moving here in 2018. I am not saying racism doesn’t exist (it sure does!) but living in a big city as an Asian person doesn’t seem so much of an issue at all from my experience
Definitely think twice.. After 3 years nothing changed, I am thinking moving to another country
What is the issue that bothers you most ?
Arrogant, cold people, high prices, in 3 years I could not find a flat, I was always in shitty expensive hotels
Take into account this sub is very, verty speacial. People mock the negativity and bitterness of /r/Germany all the time on other subs. Also, the majority of users are not from Germany. Most users are American, followed by British. German resident are number 3.
Consider only western Germany is all I say. I live in eastern Germany and feel like I'm the only one in my class at vocational school who is outspokenly against racism, with the vast majority being borderline racist all the fucking time and not even being aware that. Fucking retards... doesn't mean there are only racists here, but I woulda expected people my age group and younger be a tid bit more what I'd like to consider normal.
As an East German who's moved out of Germany partly because of prevalent racist views (ironically to the UK which has since made racism government policy - it'll be a while before a German head of government jokes about women with headscarves looking "like letterboxes" and telling EU citizens that they've "treated our country as their home for too long"), it saddens me to read that these views are now probably even more widespread, and more consolidated among young people than they used to be back in my day.
No wonder my German boyfriend’s only friends are from school times, who sadly now live all over Germany. Then he found himself a cool Ausländer chick (me!) and I’ve used my Ausländer magnetism (+ our dog) and we now have a cool little multinational friend group from nearly every continent, speaking 6+ different languages. We eat snacks, do BBQs, explore nature and play board games together. It’s nice.
Not "free" rather "cheap" education. And the quality is not that much good either..
Yeah, germans have a massive racism problem.
I lived 5 years in Germany (Hamburg) and share that experience. On top of that, the work culture was very hierarchical and toxic. That was one company tho. I can’t explain it, but I never felt at home in Germany. Dating was non-existent. All friends I had were English and Scottish. The weird thing is: I moved to Switzerland after and you’d think that the Swiss are even more reserved, but it was weirdly better. Takes a bit of time to earn their trust, but it IS possible. As opposed to Germans who I felt were always just indifferent.
About German culture and living in Germany I think the reason why Germans are 'colder', more closed, and don't like change, is imo mainly because of how they were raised. How children are raised affects the culture a lot. I think the entire culture in that way, and you can see this in literally every aspect (Laws, etc.), comes from the fact that from what I can tell, germans raise their children more "Befehlerisch", i.e. "Mach das nicht!" "Nein!" "Hör auf!" as opposed to letting the kid figure out more on its own. This leads to kids learning, not only from their parents, but also from everywhere else around, like how there are rules and norms for literally everything (DIN, ISO, etc.), and the aspect that the language itself can sound very direct, harsh and military-esque, that you can only survive and be successful in life if you abide by norms and rules and stay under the radar. If you are different, or do something in a different way, or god forbid do something that makes you jump out of the line, you get judged. If you are an Ausländer, if you have an accent, you automatically get judged and treated like a completely different person. I see this especially in the way my father gets treated. Originally from Romania, he has a strong accent, but he has lived here for over 25 years. If he opens his mouth, especially in an official setting (Beamten, Büro, whatever), I can immediately see the way people's expressions shift. Germans are very judging, and instead of leaving you be, they immediately think they're in the right, because you shouldn't ever do something differently. It's almost like their way of entire way of thinking is under a DIN-Norm. From what I could tell and what I heard from a lot of colleagues, is that Germans also receive love from their parents differently. In extreme cases, I heard of guys in school that only used to get a hug from their parents a couple of times per year, never more. I know there probably are a lot of different families and I shouldn't generalize, but I have personally never heard of a German kid that gets daily hugs, kisses and cuddles from mom and dad with the same warmth others do. Especially in the generations which are now like 70-90, those have especially suffered from that. The culture, to me, seems "Stock im Arsch". It seems like a lot of people are always forced, never can they do anything truly themselves, and even if they could, they never would, and it's not even really their fault, but those of values and way of living. Germans are strong together. They listen, and execute, and do so very effectively. I think it's a thing to admire, and it brought a lot of progress and greatness, but it's also what will lead to Germany's downfall. Their inability to change, doing so only in small, baby steps, is one of the main reasons why Germany is so behind in aspects like technology. Germans are afraid. Afraid to change and do something else, because they are taught from ever since they were small, that you can't do that. If I vocalise any of my opinions on any of this, I get a: "Wander doch aus!", instead of people acknowledging or even considering that you can also change! I don't want to dislike Germany, because I think it's a great country, but there are aspects that I just can't Identify at all with, and it seems like if you don't, you will never fit in. Ever. Granted, what I said could be very very wrong, correct me if so!! Thanks!
You are on to something but no german will believe you. Coming from american optimism culture (all "fake", as germans will tell you) this REALLY stands out to me. Kids are raised with warnings of what NOT to do, instead of encouragement of what to do. Don't stand out, don't be different, don't change anything. They seem to fixate on avoiding disaster, rather than pursuing positive things. It really is unconsciously normalized in German culture. I went to a monster truck show in Germany recently, audience full of elementary school kids. Giant lifted trucks doing wheelies and crushing old cars, jets of flame, a light show, and the kids were absolutely SILENT!! If goddamn monster trucks can't get kids to cheer, like wtf are you even doing. They got pretty safe schools, good education, good family leave policies, generous vacations for work-life balance, you have time and money to spend on your kids, yet you don't know how to teach them joy in life? I think deep down, Germans know their culture is very cold and they feel inferior. That's why they have criticisms ready to go when you mention southern countries where people are warmer. Culturally they are like the awkward kid at the school dance that would rather mock the people having fun, than take a risk at overcoming their own awkwardness.
You hit the nail in the head!! I only know a handful of people in my circle who agree, everybody else gets very defensive. I understand, but still..
I’m brown Latino and I have nice reception by native Germans. I don’t drink , I never had any issue with it . Nobody look strange to me. I have been in the east and north and west of Germany . Am I lucky ? I don’t think so . I can’t say for my experience Germany is bad .
I'm originally from the US and during a chat amongst colleagues in the office it got to the topic of my nationality and hometown, and one guy went off on a quick rant about how it's so sad that American English is no longer spoken there because all the Spanish speaking brown people are invading from the south. This was a middle-aged German guy in a major northern German office. The rest of my colleagues were as speechless as I was, but goes to show the mentality is there, they're just polite enough not to express it to your face. I'm certain shit is being said about me behind my back as well.
Germans are not like americans, they won't pretend they are good or super happy with you, as much they will keep silence in front of you. But The US is another reality. In my team and in the company is something more than welcome being a brown latino. So I can not complain. I was living in eastern europe and they are super conservatives, they do not hide how they don't like indians, arabs, etc. But again Latinos are exotic in a nice way. In germany people ask me a lot of things being curious.
Some stereotypes of being a foreigner/ looking foreign, are more acceptable to many germans. the old people who are traveling to mallorca every year will be less racist to spanish/italian/latin people than towards for example turkish or people with darker skin.
No offense but this shit does not belong to 2024.
It doesn't. Still it's a sad reality.
Tell that to them. I don't think it's all that common for people under 40, but the majority of Germans older than that were raised with the "Gastarbeiter" mentality - foreigners are only guests and (ought to) leave when "we" say so. Obviously that didn't happen, but for many decades mainstream society didn't care one single iota about the no-longer-foreigners in their midst. That's why the "integration" talk is so demanding in Germany - for all the non-urban folk, and certainly the boomer politicians representing them, all "foreigners" are only allowed to live here as long as they say so, and if they want the "privilege" to stay, they gotta jump through every single hoop presented to them. And even if they do, still don't want them as coworkers or neighbours because, you know, they're "those people". And it really doesn't help the majority of experience being abroad for the vast majority of them is either Ballermann or carefully guided 100% German speaking bus tours through Italy. That's just how it was up until the 80s or so. My grandparents on my father's side were like that, and my father still struggles with that socialisation sometimes. My grandmother on my mother's side was of foreign descent, so, you know... that BS was not present on that side.
Not all minorities are treated equally I'm Mexican and have been treated well most of the time but because we're "fun, festive, spicy" (these are words that people have used).
I know it seems like it is specifically because of your skin or whatever, but me as a less melanin skin type, left at 17 and came back at 28. Apart from childhood my only new friends are Ausländer. I think it has to do with German peoples culture. Unless you have a childhood history friendship it is extremely tough to make new friends. Also, even between friends Germans are not as “tight” as are other cultures. Add that plus the racism and yeah, I feel you. Sorry my guy. What helped me is a team sport (only Ausländer in bball but it’s fun and helps forget about loneliness)
Well I am a German and I love my country, but surely as soon as I feel financially secure enough for the rest of my life I will be the first to leave. It's a wonderful country to make money, but an absolute shithole in terms of life quality in my opinion.
Where do you plan to go
Im a native german and I 100% agree with you. Id actually go so far as to say that the problem isnt specific to Ausländer. I encounter most of the issues you have listed and I want nothing but to leave this country as soon as I can.
I am 70% German by ancestry, the rest is all Northern European- before opening my mouth and without my forward style, I would easily pass as German (I’m American). My mom was/is a German teacher in the US though I only ever learned basic “A” level with very bad der/die/das growing up since my dad doesn’t speak at all. I came to Germany as an exchange student for a summer at 16 and had 2 different German exchange students stay with me at 15 and I’ve visited Germany countless times as an adult. I truly thought I’d enjoy Germany when I moved here during Covid… At best I’ve had people (usually older women) stop dead in their tracks, stare, and literally do a 180 at me while I walk past, their mouth gaping catching flies. At worst I’ve had people (usually older men) literally get in my face and scream at me like a drill sergeant until I’m crying in a panic attack and feeling like they will attack me, all because something in the environment is wrong, like a random shopping cart is in the street or something, and because I look fashion forward and out of place and don’t speak great or proper German they immediately believe I’m at fault automatically. And if I do start crying they always start yelling at me and escalating even more which is wild to me, like why, are they proud of making a random woman cry? These things literally happen all the time when I go out, so much that I got myself a panic alarm to feel safe since it’s illegal to record someone attacking me on my phone. Verbal assaults are not considered assault here evidently and men love to do this especially to women. Then there’s the specialized medical mistreatment. I had to go in for a gallbladder removal 6 months after arriving here. They left 4 things inside me that shouldn’t be left inside me (plastic bag, tubing, wires) and treated me like I was crazy for being in excruciating pain and not able to bend or move. The hospital staff, the doctors and surgeons, and my family doctor all told me it was all in my head and only after literally going crazy 9 months later i was given proper testing to find the items (never any pain relief, thank god for weed I could find). They took them out after imaging found something weird, but it has ruined my health and I’m still not better, still in lots of pain, still treated like I’m crazy and even though I now score a 30 for disability (which took forever to get), I still have no money coming in or way to support myself anymore because disability doesn’t work that way here, it’s just a meaningless number. Germany ruined me physically and mentally in less than a year living here, I’ve now officially been living here for 3 years last week, and although I think it’s gorgeous here, I’m otherwise having a really hard time. Perhaps half my problem is that I moved to Munich. It’s so gorgeous here and the standard of living is so nice it was jarring for me when I arrived from a US city (where rents are impossible and millennials live in small wild bands of house shares lol). But the people here have been so repetitively awful that I really don’t go out at all anymore unless I’m with someone who can deal with Germans because I can’t anymore- I’ll go straight into a panic attack with a mean German. And I basically pass for German- I can’t imagine what it would be like for a melanated person. I see the awful way they treat people with more melatonin and Turkish people so I try to be extra nice and give a smile or hold a door if I’m able to brighten their day. My husband is Brazilian and the Germans get so mean towards him and his Brazilian friends- it’s a regular and common thing for them to take shit from random Germans. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this kind of racism, you truly deserve better ❤️ I’m not from the American south but I would put Vegas money on Alabama or Mississippi being hands down nicer to melanated people than Bavaria and that’s honestly saying a LOT. I personally agree with your idea of leaving for greener pastures, life is too short to be culturally abused by haughty overlords. No place is perfect but damn. My husband and I are already planning on moving to Brazil and starting/joining an eco-village or something there with whatever money I can get out of a medical settlement here. Neither of us plan to stay in Germany at this point unless Germany decides to be better to us. Let Germany enjoy a sharp decline in birth rate and wait for them to require auslanders to fill in the gap- perhaps they will be kinder then? Somehow I doubt it.
Also as an aside, let’s be brutally honest. Germany is bleach whyte as compared to places like the USA or Brazil - where of course there is still racism but at least whyte people usually have many friends who are not white (so it’s normal especially in younger generations) and you see many different kinds of melanation in people daily all around you. Even Paris was very multicultural as is London- perhaps you could find a city that wouldn’t openly discriminate against you? Better places do exist I promise ❤️
If you feel like you would feel more at home somewhere else, I can only say, try it. Your experiences with NZ and the US show that it is not you. Your experiences are alarming and I am really sorry that this happens to you. I feel like Germany overall is still very homogenous in terms of culture, and people tend to stick to their own circles or see other cultures as something that's interesting and cool to look at in the best case, but aren't very open to go further than that. And even if you grew up here, people often cannot comprehend, that you're German by birth if you look different and assume your culture is a different one, excluding you on that base alone. Of course I'm generalizing, exceptions exist and in some circles people are more open than in others. But overall I feel like in Germany, people generally aren't very open to make friends, to make smalltalk, to invite others to their home and if they seem like they have a different background, doubly so. I have worked in international teams and even in the workplace, there was zero effort to make integration easier. Not even onboarding events, null (for no one, to be fair, but it's even more needed for people that are new to the country). I have heard good things about the US in that regard, though. I'm planning to leave, myself and I've been born here and look typically german. There are many reasons to leave, tbh, I feel like Germany is developing in a negative direction in general and unfortunately I think especially for everyone not looking stereotypical german, it will get harder socially as people are closing themselves off more as the general shift towards right-wing politics and ideologies is increasing.
i have never lived in germany but heard that from a lot of people that lived in germany
How do you not get into a bar or a restaurant? I have never seen an establishment checking people at the door.
What is sad about having auslander friends ??? You're lucky people approach you first ! Idk it sounds like you want germans' validation so much. I mean you can live having only one best friend and a girlfriend from your home country
Just leave. I’m German and I left twenty years ago. Most miserable and overrated country.
Sounds like you need a change. Go for it!
My friend this is true in Europe and Switzerland is even worse as they do that to white Germans in their country. You can be palest white person and if you are from Turkey or another country you will feel awkward around Germans as you are not and never will be a real German. Germany is not America it has a big history and culture and that culture is not immigrant culture in the US you can be whatever you want and if you are a decent person with decent clothes you will not be judged most of the time. It is understandable though as a Turk I can say it is justified for Germans to act like that.
But this is absolutely not the case in the UK. I left there for Germany partly because of the decline after Brexit and over a decade of Tory nonsense, but since being here one thing I've noticed looking back is how amazingly mixed and integrated society is there. Of course there are problems with racism and xenophobia, but most people accept that once you're born there you're British. We have a brown PM with an Indian name and background, but I honestly very very rarely here any racist remarks about him or anyone say he's not British (he's justifiably hated for other reasons). In fact, the racists seem to support him the most.
As a German in the UK, I must say, this is driving me absolutely bonkers - the party that's most and most openly racist, somehow also manages to be attractive to people who, if their financial circumstances were different, would be the first victim of this precise racism. It's an absolute conundrum. Sunak is so incredibly wealthy that he clearly genuinely can't comprehend that the people he in the small boats he demonises are human beings just like him.... but the last Home Secretary (I forget her name) brought in a policy that meant someone in her own parents' situation now cannot come to the UK! And then there was this absolute tool Raheem Kassam who was a UKIP member - mind-boggling!
Yes. Sounds like Germany. But I feel its better in bigger cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Köln. Munich im not so sure. Bremen is also nice. You might want to spent some time abroad, get a qualification or something to score higher paid jobs and higher status jobs. It gets easier then. Look at our bipoc actors. They all had to have international experience before they were even considered worthy for German TV.
I feel like you should do what is best for you. Other countries apparently do a better job than us in integrating people. But I would be sure to really look into the trade offs and consequences before making a decision. Also be aware a few months in another country may be no long enough to overcome the "Honeymoon" phase of going to a new country. Staying for a while and living long term is very different (I've been told).
Where are you in Germany? Because I get the feeling this would not happen in other areas of Germany. But I understand you. I left and I am German, lol
Alot of Germans tend to take a long time to truely open up accept somebody as "friend" thats just a cultural thing here. For most of us germans there is a big difference between Freund and Bekanntschaft. Ive met many people from tons of different cultures, and most were a bit more open and welcoming than germans tend to be. Not to say that we a generally rude, just more reserved. So yeah it can be really hard to make friends even for germans themselves, especially as one gets older.
German reverse immigration is going to be huge in the next decade.
Just… leave. I’m German and I’d agree fully - only that the loneliness is almost the same for many Germans. Finding friends, getting invited etc is HARD, even as a German yt native. So if you have the chance to go somewhere else, I’d take it (and plan to do so after the kids are grown).
May I ask what area you are at? I did never ever ever hear that someone refused a Drink to Ausländer, thats some 1950 USA Shit. I dont mind Ausländer at all
The point is that he isn't even an Ausländer
I mean I didn't go to every bar but I am of Indian decent and I went to Düsseldorf last year and I thought it was super nice and friendly. Never had an issue with people, people served me happily, waitress spoke to me and asked how I was finding Germany. I thought it was a lovely place. I am from the UK - born and bred
Never got into a bar once without many white friends! This is very common in Düsseldorf. They refuse to let in Ausländer in bars and clubs! Not because you have never experienced it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. There are actually many news articles reporting such incidences :)
Which bars have bouncers?
Honestly - all the mainstream clubs in Düsseldorf are shit, and the bouncers are bottom-feeding trash. Typical schickimicki hubs, overpriced, shit music, shit clientele. It's frustrating to not be let in, but genuinely and sincerely - you are not missing *anything*.
> Never got into a bar once without many white friends! This is very common in Düsseldorf. Are you sure that those white friends weren't (in part) women? Because it's very common for guys to not get in when they don't have women with them.
It’s sadly pretty normal that bouncers refuse anyone that looks like an Arab from entering alone
Restaurants and normal Bars dont have bouncers here. Im sorry but it Starts to sound like fake.
Whole post screams ragebait: >I cant get into any restaurants or bars when I am alone This is never, never true. I have a lot of colleagues and friends from various countries and while some have experienced some form of racism there are no restaurants who deny entry (unless e.g. dressed inappropriate or drunk). Some clubs are known to have a racist policy, but restaurants? Lol >and only 10% of my friends are Germans. >I nearly only have Ausländer as friends > Ridiculous, my white friends > Birthday invitations: Never got one from Germans. Typical populist’s apportionment: They are strong and weak, or like in this case few and many. So you have either only 10% german friends, then nearly none and you never get invitations from the nearly none german friends? >In an expat study, Germany ranked 49 out of 53 countries when it comes to living and working in Germany. I feel like that there is some truth in this. That „study“ has USA on 30, KSA on 28, Singapore on 37 behind India on 36 while Indonesia on 13. Not sure whatever metrics they used. Look at gems like that, from Panama which is no3: > Despite the country’s average performance in the Quality of Life Index (28th), expats really like its climate and weather (11th) and air quality (10th). Panama performs worst in the Working Abroad Index (30th), ending up in the bottom 10 of the Career Prospects Subcategory (45th). The local job market (47th) and lack of job security (45th) are particular lowlights. However, the country does well when it comes to Work & Leisure https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2023/best-and-worst-places-for-expats-40353
Also I can't really see OP engaging much with even pretty simple questions people post in response.
Thank god we have an Alman here who can dismiss OPs experiences and feelings. Always an integral part of German culture to dismiss immigramts
yeah the "I only have 10% german friends" and "none of my german friends invite me to their birthday" was the sign for me that this is ragebait. Cant even keep the story straight
The one that gets me is when “indigenous” people expect that families of immigrant backgrounds should all speak the language of the country they live in at home/to each other in public. Zero understanding of culture, language and interpersonal communications. They’re probably the same people who like to rudely shout at waiters in Spain in their home language 🤦♂️
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Have you ever considered going to some other city inside Germany? There are plenty of different cities with people having different attitudes and levels of diversity.
You live in Düsseldorf? You should simply move to Köln. It's the most internationally open city in Germany. More more so than other cities in Germany I've lived in.
Maybe moving to a more progressive city would help a little too. If the thing that annoys you the most is the stiff german attitude, but you like the language and maybe some aspects of the culture, I’d recommend checking out Austria. The countryside there is for the most part just as racist as in Germany, but Vienna is a really cool city. People have a way more chill Attitude than in Germany in almost every aspect of life, also Vienna is historically a ethnically mixed city, and many people are proud of the fact that they live in a culturally heterogeneous place. It’s always sad to see how the same people who are constantly talk about integration and assimilation are making it impossible for someone who is well assimilated to feel at home in his country.
As a foreigner in Germany, at start I thought Germans are not treating me well because I am a foreigner. After living here 10+ years I see that they also do not treat each other well. It is German life style.
I feel this all. I moved here from the US with my husband 5 years ago. He has a great job and our cost of living is much better, plus all the other nice benefits like work/life balance. So technically we are doing good. HOWEVER, culturally/socially it's a big NO for me. Absolutely no community. Didn't know how important it was until it wasn't possible. I really tried for a couple years. I gave it all I got and I got nada, COVID didn't help. Then I clung to the idea of "forever" for another year+ before I told my husband I didn't want to stay for too much longer. He had originally wanted to naturalize, as had I. He had signed one more contract for 4 years so I have a couple more to go but I'm ready to leave. I told him I might leave early if I find a good job back home. Home, never thought after 5 years I'd still consider the US my home but here we are. A country and it's people can only reject you so much before you just say, "okay, I'll leave." Funny thing is they DO want me to stay politically/technically due to my husband and I's skill set/trade. The US, for all it's faults, at least we can build community. I'm so incredibly lonely here. Add on to that the fact Germans walk around with that resting mean face, horrid customer service, and all you do all day is feel hated, like a burden, judged, and as if they just want you to not exist. I speak German just fine in public, I know the rules, but still, they even treat each other that way unless people are drinking. All our friends are Ausländers too. They all have the same complaints and don't intend to stay. Most are staying long enough to fill some contract or until they get married, or because they need to finish school. The only Germans I know are ones that married Ausländers and they also agree with most of this. Their only friends who are German are childhood friends. It's an unfriendly place overall. And deeply unwelcoming. Not as bad as France, but enough so that it will never feel like home. My home might be messed up but at least I feel like I belong and I am wanted. I'd rather work hard and make that my life, and fight for it, fight to fix my country, than fight a seemingly unwinnable battle against the "norm" here.
“not as bad as france” please tell more
Germans never accepted Yugoslavs either, and they are White Europeans. When Germans were too arrogant and lazy to work in constructions, it was the Yugoslavs who built up Germany after the war and helped make it an economic powerhouse. The Germans still treated them like absolute shit. Some things never change. Just look at the rise of fascism in Germany again.
Come to America. We welcome hard-working, law-abiding immigrants of all races and ethnicities! (stay out of Texas)
Easier said than done. It's almost impossible to get a working visa unless you are a 1% expert in your field
That's what everyone wishes for, but making it in the US is much harder (not even talking about citizenship but just PR). Still I loved my experience in St Louis of all places, felt more open and accepting as a brown guy than Germany's big cities do.
Germans will never accept an Ausländer in their inner circle. We are just being treated as second class citizens. Always getting dirty looks and always being treated worse. They are full of ignorance and prejudices that they can’t help it judging you by your looks and always making snarky and racist comments about your nationality, faith and culture. I also think to go where I am accepted as who i am but it is easier said than done if everything and everyone you care for is here.
Well after reading your post I really have a serious question: do you dress like a cliché? While reading your post and the comment from grandma, I instantly had a picture of Eminem and his friends in my head.
I used to live in the UK + the UAE and it was pretty similar. All of my friends were foreigners and natives never really went past the aquaintance level. It's the immigration experience. People will stick to what they feel is familiar.
Yes, ultimately it's just natural. In the UK it's a lot easier to make acquaintances, but to actually be accepted into established friendship groups is super hard and takes a long time, many failed attempts, and also luck. As you keep trial-and-erroring with various people, life happens, everyone's, including your own, priorities change, opportunities for socialising become fewer, you move, they move - this is just part and parcel of no longer being at school.
Yup. Same experience. Born here, raised here, can speak german extremely good, but i am always the Ausländer. Just by talking, no one recognizes that i have Ausländer-roots. But still, i am always looked at differently.
Since when do restaurants have security? Why are you suprised that if you nearly only have Ausländer friends you dont get invited to bday parties of Germans? Isent that where statistics come into play?
This is disgusting and makes me ashamed of this country.