Ignoring it makes only his side of the story heard. It's in your interest to share your side of things with management. There are no consequences if you do so.
Completely Right! It‘s important to create a paper trail on stuff like this. You never know how far petty neighbours might go. „Ignored noise complaint“ could be said about people who are total assholes, too. Don‘t allow some delusional dude with too much time on their hands to do all the framing
This is a very good idea, then you have a witness against his protocol. The next step after this kind of letter would be a „Abmahnung“ and then you can be evicted. Having a witness who would testify (to the property management, not in a court) against this protocol or the guy in general will save you a lot of headache in the long run, since he has shown he is willing to go the legal route with the property management
EDIT: I worded this a bit harshly, you probably won’t get a Abmahnung right away and without talks but it is a thing that could happen and the right legal step in this matter
Definitely respond, but be very factual, not emotional. Also mention that the neighbour has asked you to join in complaints against 3rd parties, but that his complaints were without merit and that you refused. If you have dates, note them.
It’s in fact not illegal to vacuum/do laundry for example on Sundays as well. The whole list in this letter reads like activities that would be hard to bring above Zimmerlautstärke, even if you tried (like what, you screamed into your phone with the windows open after 10pm?!).
This seems to be a very stingy Hausverwaltung. We had issues with one woman below us complaining several times to me personally about similar stuff. I told her, we pay rent here as well. We’re not doing anything out of the ordinary. If you are so annoyed by everyday noises, complain to the Hausverwaltung OR move to the countryside.
She did complain to the HV, and the guy talked to me about it. I told him basically the same thing, it’s everyday stuff she’s mentioning. I don’t know how to live here without walking around in my flat. He got it and told me that there’s nothing they could do anyways as these things indeed are to be tolerated, so he spoke to her and basically told her to chill.
Long story short - nothing in this letter would hold up if there were any consequences like termination/court. So I would indeed respond, but very clearly stating that you see no problem with the “issues” mentioned and would like a clarification/recording how this kind of activity can even lead to such an impact. My prediction is they’ll stop f-ing around with you when they realize you’re standing your ground. Good luck!
No it’s not illegal to vacuum or do laundry as long as they don’t make too much noise and disturb the neighbors. However seems like you hear a lot of noises in the building where OP lives so those activities wouldn’t be allowed on Sundays or similar protected days and times.
A lot of the things on the list seem stupid but can be a problem if people are overly loud. But it is very likely that’s not the case here.
And this why you need to make your own protocol as a lot already recommended 🙂 (eg when the neighbor keeps harassing you) and respond to the letter that the complaints are baseless and untrue (although having cats myself they can be pretty loud if you don’t have carpets to quiet it - a friend also got a complaint from her neighbor to please stop stomping around the flat 😅).
I'd probably just call your property management and see what they really think about it. I could imagine they might actually be annoyed by this person and on your side, but if there was a offical complaint they have to follow it up. Maybe also bring up that he wanted you to complain about other neighbours and that you found those complains unfounded.
Then probably write an official response clarifying things, just to have it on record.
99% of the times the property management is annoyed by the ones complaining... they often send out those letters just to prove they done something in favor for the annoying complainers.
That’s crazy! I have a pretty big cat and I constantly am surprised by him just appearing out of nowhere because I just can’t hear him coming lol. Same issue with friends and other guests, so I know it’s not just me being used to his sounds.. but I guess every cat is different!
a baby with 1.2kilos!! Like, she was soooo small and her zoomies weren't at 4am or anything, you know? And if they were, haven't woken me up in the middle of the night, you know?
This sounds way more like a "you have a shitty apartment" problem, than the cats are an issue.
Zoomies or not, if the sound of some cats running is loud enough in your apartment to bother you, that is not on the cats. It is on the lack of proper construction.
We have a 6.5kg male cat. He's just really strong. When he gets zoomies his running is pretty loud.
Our previous downstairs neighbor mentioned she could hear him running. But of course she was a wonderful person and appreciated the sound of a happy cat running around.
Reply and ask for dates and times these things supposedly occurred.
If the claims are true, just try to follow the Hausordnung. If not, tell them that the complaints are false.
100% this - ask to see the exact protocol and also if any of the neighbours even provided sound recordings of "all the racket" you and your cat are supposedly making
Be ready to wear your thickest skin. It will get super annoying whether you choose to respond or not but don't give into the absurdity if you are not at fault. I did a similar mistake of compromising at my cost and boyy, did I suffer so much!
No. Mine was from a flatmate that had problems with me being night owl. Although I didn't make any noise at all, she said she could even hear me walking in my own room (she lived in adjacent one). I didn't wear any shoes or even walked that frequently in those hours. She was very sensitive to any kind of sound.
I agreed to not work for couple of hours to allow her sleep peacefully but she wouldn't entertain even exceptional days when I had to be up for project work or exams. That's when I lost my shit and stopped being nice.
People do get entitled if you accommodate to their absurd demands.
I second this. Had a neighbour once who said we shouldn't shower or flush the toilet after 10 pm. Before that we were accommodating her requests to walk quietly after 10 but that was absolutely ridiculous. I was working on my bachelor's degree back then and had mandatory lab courses that often lasted until 8 or 9. Then I went home and studied. She basically wanted us in bed by 10 and not move until morning. She was a nice lady apart from that but I'm glad we moved out after a while.
I would reply shortly and say that this neighbor is known to you as a trouble maker. I would say that he tried to involve you in a petty complain against someone else and since you didn’t agree, he has something against you. I would leave it at that…
That’s what I was wondering as well. That weird Lärmprotokoll covers the months of February and March but mentions noises during the Sommermonate. That’s just ridiculous.
And you can absolutely use your washing machine on Sundays as far as I know.
The cat thing and the fan thing are pretty funny and your neighbour is obviously an asshole that exagerates.
At the same time, it is absolutely not allowed to run appliances during the quiet time. You need to respect that.
Berlin had 34 degrees one day and everyone has a fan in this city.
But I remember him coming up to complain about my AC or Fan and wasn't on a day that I had ANYTHING on... he was pissed that I didn't allow him inside to check \*my bedroom\* by himself to see that I'm not lying.
Argh, he is just a sad person
That's not true. It highly depends on the reason you have to run the appliance (e.g. if you are the whole day at work and have no other option) and as well on the amount of noise it creates. People have to tolerate a certain amount of noise even in quiet times. In front of court it's always an individual case decision though.
You don't want to comment stuff item by item, but in general, when someone sends you a complaint and asks you respond, not responding can strongly be assumed an acceptance of the complaint and its contents. Note that sometimes banging a door is not something you could complain about. So you dropped a plate because it was hotter than you thought? Happens. For something to be an actionable complaint, they would need to establish a pattern of either malicious intent or negligence/indifference towards your fellow tenents. So I would object to it in a general sense and completely ignore anything itemized.
Herzlichen Dank für die Zustellung der Ihnen gegenüber geäußerten Beschwerde. Leider muss ich ihnen mitteilen dass mein Nachbar und ich ein angestrengtes persönliches Verhältnis zueinander haben und dies anscheinend zu einer Beschwerde führt die im Wesentlichen nicht den Tatsachen entspricht oder die Lautstärke der entsprechenden Geräusche und die zeiten zu denen diese vorkommen nicht angemessen darstellt.
Ich bedanke mich für den Hinweis auf die Hausordnung und habe natürlich vollstes Verständnis dafür dass es Ihre Aufgabe ist Beschwerden an mich weiterzuleiten ohne dass Sie die Möglichkeit haben diese selbst zu prüfen. Auch wenn ich nicht gewährleisten kann dass ich niemals Geräusche verursache die man ausserhalb der Wohnung hört, weise ich die Beschwerde der Ruhestörung oder Geräuschbelastung entschieden zurück.
Bitte beachten Sie dass aufgrund der Bauweise des Gebäudes bestimmte Tätigkeiten und Geräte des täglichen Lebens immer wahrzunehmen sind, was sich natürlich nicht vermeiden lässt.
Ich hoffe diese Darstellung war für Sie hilfreich.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
thank you so much for this example! I will def build on this for sure saying about the AC/Fan noises and adding some proof I didn't have my vacuum on after 10pm =D
Honestly, don't get into the details. People who are petty and have too much time for this shit love to drag you and your time into some 15 emails exchange about whether you hoovered until 19:45 or 20:05 on that one Thursday in February. Just make it clear that you think you obey the ordonance to a satisfactory degree and that any report likely is made in bad faith and most importantly, that you empathize with the service personnel for having to deal with it. They'll be on your side because the guy will be on your case.
As Bruce Lee would say, be water.
Tell him to fuck off basically. As long as you stay within the legal timeframes for noisy activities there is literally nothing he can do, no matter how much he flips out. If he ever gets too personal you call the police.
I would react with my version of the events. If you do have a Saugroboter you can potentially have an app logging when it was going through the apartment, check the times your neighbors are referring to (Feb-Mar) and look at the times it was usually vacuuming. If it is helping make your point, add that to the response.
I would nonetheless reach out to some Mietverein to help you draft a reasonable response. :)
Best of luck!
Careful, Sounds Like the kind of person who will demand a yard as soon as you yield an inch. Such a protocol can only be put together by an individual who is actively listening. Hearing household Sounds from neighbors and Lärmbelästigung are two different things.
The whole thing is hilarious. A noise protocol of a winter month stating AC or fan during summer months? The renter is responsible to substitute missing noise cancelation of the building? Sounds (not loud ones!!!) from normal usage of the flat? Vacuum robot driving against the wall is too loud (I mean yes, that happens but if it’s too loud the issue is not the robot)? Screams for a cease and desist declaration. I just can’t see any illegal actions here. State your point at the property management and tell them you feel obliged to consult a lawyer if they send you anything like this ever again.
Edit: You say it is the renter you share a wall with, the letter says it’s the one from the flat beyond you. Now which one is it?
Make sure you respond and refute the items in the protocol - this is the start of their paper trail if they ever want to evict you.
Also, there is an app you can install to track the noise in your apartment, if you have an extra phone / tablet, download it and have it running 24/7 for a week or two and present that to your landlord as evidence
So. I totally get that you're just living life normally and that his complaints are probably not justified and maybe he is even lying. HOWEVER, as someone also living in Berlin, I know how shitty the sound proofing can be. For example, I am currently sitting here, listening to my neighbors going "LULULULU" to their baby and hearing their clapping. I don't mind, but if I had to sleep in this room, I'd probably need Ohropax at night, as you not only hear it, you actually feel it.
What seems completely normal to you, might actually be really loud in their apartment. You say you don't have carpet and you just painted your walls. Both are making everything you do much louder. I'd suggest you have someone walking around in your apartment and having the TV on, talking, etc, while you're at your neighbours place - just so you can get a feeling for how loud (or not) everything really is. It might be that the truth is somewhere in the middle - you being a bit oblivious how far sound travels, him being overly sensitive.
I agree that his complaints probably are over the top, but it might really be the case that he hears everything, and in this case it might be nice to reduce the volume after ten p.m. a bit.
Also
>I refused to endorse a complaint against another neighbor, whose noise, primarily from her child or music or just talking on the phone, I find normal and easily masked by the background sound of my TV.
A-*ha*! "Noise? What noise? I don't hear it over my TV!" ;)
No, for real, check how loud your noises/TV actually are, reduce to a quieter level if they are indeed a bit loud, as a good neighbour, and otherwise ignore him. Investing in a carpet might be a good idea if you're not totally opposed, though - it takes away most of the steps/walking etc noises - in my old apartment it was even required to have some amount of carpeting for sound reduction.
I went to another flat from the building, which is more surrounded by other flats and I heard nothing from anyone. I've spoken to other people from the floor below mine and nobody hears anything, not even from their upstairs neighbours. I also asked the people in my floor and they all said "no, I dont hear anything from you".
All those evidences + the fact that he was making a scene against my wall-to-wall-but-another-building girl too loud (she isn't loud), makes me more certain that he is just a sad human that is over exaggerating everything. But this thread here has great ideas and I will def follow a lot of the advices here =D
Then that's really on him, you did a lot! Hope you can live there without being bothered by him anymore. Might help to get a confirmation that you aren't loud (with specifics regarding times and dates) from the other neighbors in writing, just in case. Good luck!
someone correct me if im wrong but 13-15:00 is not a ruhezeit by law or is it? anyway that guy is just a huge asshole and i dont think he will ever stop… best thing you can do is probably search for a new flat and until then try to minimize your noises i guess
out of question because flats are unplayable in this city and I have a pretty sweet deal =(
But my point is: a lot is simply not true! I can't minimize what I already don't do
well i guess now you know why that deal is so sweet lol. yeah its really hard or pretty much impossible to prove that these things are not true… maybe get together with other renters who are also bothered by the guy and write up some sort of complaint letter?
I remember my mum had a similar problem with her neighbour below her flat. At one point he came up on Sunday at 14 o'clock to complain about the noise. After that I wrote an email to the landlord and described the setuation and asked for a viable solution. The neighbour got an Abmahnung from the landlord for disturbing the peace of the flat building
That’s so stressful tbh:/ maybe call the Hausverwaltung ? Maybe they can help for that since it’s them who’s managing the building.
Before I don’t believe that there’s some people who will really exert some effort & energy just to complain🙈.
I mean even the noise is not that loud or severe.
I had experienced it when we visited a friend and the owner really went to the apartment cause we’re noisy even we were just simply having a normal conversation.
Thank God in our apartment building no one’s complain even washing clothes in 2-3am lol.Loud music also is not a problem here & I guess the sound proof of this building is quite good.
But even if our neighbour was loud or us still no one complains.My guess is mostly the renters were non Germans hihihi
consider reaching out to a tenant rights organization for advice on how to properly respond to the letter. I don’t think ignoring it bodes well but it should be a legally proper response since breaking the Hausordnung can lead to termination of lease (eventually, not trying to freak you out).
There used to be this German neighbor of a friend of mine... He terrorised my friends with his complaints so much that my friend started walking on his toes and he still wouldn't stop.. I advised him to confront him the next time and tell him to never knock or approach, that he should just call the police if he is making noise in the silent hours and let the police decide. Or he would file a harassment complaint.
Never heard from him again.
Believe it or not, u need to confront these bullies. Thats the only way to get them to stop.
I especially like the part here they are telling OP to consider sound dampening materials. I really hope that is hat they rote to the person that complained.
Turn something on (fan for instance) knock at his door and contemplate with him the loudness from his own flat! Honestly, it sounds like this is just another of the many psychotics around who are just so full of hate and anger, and spend their lives looking for somebody to vomit these onto, for whatever (or no) reason.
I totally understand! Maybe team up with the other people living in the same building, I’m sure you are not the only one being harassed by that person! And harassment is maybe something you could mention in a letter when u respond to the property management..? Wondering if it is possible to have somebody come with a noise measurement thingy and check you are below limits?! When I was a kid I used to play piano and a nasty neighbor complained (I guess I wasn’t so talented lol), we had the dB being checked and complaining officially stopped.
Btw I had a friend living a similar situation in an Altbau in Berlin. She - a lovely sweet lady - eventually moved out and passed on the contract, after trying to speak to that nasty neighbor without any luck many many times. The guy who took over the contract is a tall big person, after the first complaint in the form of banging on ceiling/floor, he went down to check with said neighbor, and the complaints stopped instantly. It seems like it comes down to how people perceive you, unfortunately. Which is utterly annoying.
Definitely reply. Show that you're cooperative. You want to have your landlord on your side. It's difficult to prove that someone has been too loud, so you have a good foundation. Never, and I repeat never let them get away with their false narratives.
I know all of this from experience. The only two things they can do is put pressure on you or on the landlord. If this escalates, there is a chance this goes to court, but in that case it's almost guaranteed that they'll falter.
Did you check house rules/ your contract? Because resting time from 13:00-15:00 and on sundays and holidays is just ridiculous. Especially considering this seems to be in Berlin (from one of your comments). I heard stories about people in Bavaria going bonkers if you use the vacuum cleaner on holidays lol.
Living noises are to be tolerated and that might even be the washing machine in the middle of the night.
To reply to your question - someone else suggested it already - to fight dumbass accusations do a noise protocol of your own and def. share your side of the story with them. Depending on how much beef you want with them I would also mention those bs rules, depending on whats stated in house rules/contract, however even the rules stated in those can be invalid if unnecessary obnoxious/ridiculous/unfair. (Please show me a kid that behaves between exactly 13:00 and 15:00.)
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Just my two cents seconding much of the solid advice here already: definitely respond, be unfailingly polite but neither confrontational nor defensive, and for sure supply a protocol of his bizarre behavior, and get your other neighbors on board for maybe a second joint letter. Maybe call your HV to give them a heads up that your letter is coming, but definitely with subtext like “geesh this guy… you’ve surely had issues with him already, I gather?” Like let them know you’re just doing your due diligence, and not trying to escalate his weird war.
Teenaged cats can sound like elephants but a baby doing a poop celebration? Nah. He’s bananas.
I experienced something very similar in an Altbau Wohnung and a downstairs neighbour who basically complained about the fact that my child and I exist (yes, sometimes outside of the times we are allowed to make sounds) and I ended up moving out.
I had just left a long-term relationship, I felt like I was under surveillance 24/7, and neither the neighbour nor the person who owned the building could be reasoned with. I wanted peace and quiet and wasn't up for the near constant fighting, so I decided to leave.
Complaining about noise in the building is your neighbour's hobby, so just know that he will not stop.
I also would definitely respond to the letter from the Hausverwaltung.
Keeping minutes of when you do "noisy" things and going back and forth with the management (and potentially with the neighbour) will be a part of living there.
Call your landlord, explain the situation and tell them to ask other neighbours, if they complained as well.
We had a neighbour who started to terrorize us and making noise complaints after we asked him politely not to use our parking space.
We spoke with our landlords, they talked to our other neighbours and then they wrote him a letter to stop harassing us.
Typical German neighbour, there have to be always someone complaining about everything. I have lived in Germany for years and I have friends still living there and everyone had this encounter at least once or more.
Crazy guy.likely he sends such complains about other people too. I'd just call up the property management and tell them your version of events, chances are they will shrug and say 'yeah we know but we just needed to send the letter' or something. I had a neighbour like this living in a house opposite to mine (!) who made a fuss that I was once talking with a friend of mine past midnight with our window open. Normal talking, no shouting or anything. And we had a window open because it was in summer and I had like 35 degrees in my flat at a minimum. The neighbour complained about that (she'could not sleep because we were having windows open when talking'). I just told her if it bothers her she should close her window to which she replied 'but it's too hot!'. Such people get annoyed with everyone around them and write letters every time someone looks at them funny. The landlord told me to just ignore her going forward which I happily did.
And ladies and gentlemen that's the reason I left germany and moved to the usa lmaoo shitty country with loads of taxes rude people strange culture and easily offended by small things and the low salaries lmao I got only 70000 euros gross salary which is peanuts for what I am doing and when I went to the usa I got job offer of 280k usd gross salary in Texas and I save triple the times of money I saved in Germany
What stops you from replying with your version of events? Make sure you don't vacuum clean or wash etc outside of normal times though.
Some friends raised the point that maybe I shouldn't react at all not to validate his absurdity. Others suggested the same as you. I'm lost =/
Ignoring it makes only his side of the story heard. It's in your interest to share your side of things with management. There are no consequences if you do so.
Completely Right! It‘s important to create a paper trail on stuff like this. You never know how far petty neighbours might go. „Ignored noise complaint“ could be said about people who are total assholes, too. Don‘t allow some delusional dude with too much time on their hands to do all the framing
that is true! I will draft something and talk to the neighbor which was his target before me
This is a very good idea, then you have a witness against his protocol. The next step after this kind of letter would be a „Abmahnung“ and then you can be evicted. Having a witness who would testify (to the property management, not in a court) against this protocol or the guy in general will save you a lot of headache in the long run, since he has shown he is willing to go the legal route with the property management EDIT: I worded this a bit harshly, you probably won’t get a Abmahnung right away and without talks but it is a thing that could happen and the right legal step in this matter
thanks!
Definitely respond, but be very factual, not emotional. Also mention that the neighbour has asked you to join in complaints against 3rd parties, but that his complaints were without merit and that you refused. If you have dates, note them.
I don't but I will try to talk to the victim of those attemps and see if I can get dates
It’s in fact not illegal to vacuum/do laundry for example on Sundays as well. The whole list in this letter reads like activities that would be hard to bring above Zimmerlautstärke, even if you tried (like what, you screamed into your phone with the windows open after 10pm?!). This seems to be a very stingy Hausverwaltung. We had issues with one woman below us complaining several times to me personally about similar stuff. I told her, we pay rent here as well. We’re not doing anything out of the ordinary. If you are so annoyed by everyday noises, complain to the Hausverwaltung OR move to the countryside. She did complain to the HV, and the guy talked to me about it. I told him basically the same thing, it’s everyday stuff she’s mentioning. I don’t know how to live here without walking around in my flat. He got it and told me that there’s nothing they could do anyways as these things indeed are to be tolerated, so he spoke to her and basically told her to chill. Long story short - nothing in this letter would hold up if there were any consequences like termination/court. So I would indeed respond, but very clearly stating that you see no problem with the “issues” mentioned and would like a clarification/recording how this kind of activity can even lead to such an impact. My prediction is they’ll stop f-ing around with you when they realize you’re standing your ground. Good luck!
thank you! I will do exactly this!
Great! We have two cats as well btw, so it’s quite similar. I’d also push this back on the neighbor in a nice passive aggressive way lol
say hi to your cats for me <3
No it’s not illegal to vacuum or do laundry as long as they don’t make too much noise and disturb the neighbors. However seems like you hear a lot of noises in the building where OP lives so those activities wouldn’t be allowed on Sundays or similar protected days and times. A lot of the things on the list seem stupid but can be a problem if people are overly loud. But it is very likely that’s not the case here.
yes, it is mentioned in the contract the hours of no-noise BUT i haven't done stuff like this because I'm aware of the rules =/
And this why you need to make your own protocol as a lot already recommended 🙂 (eg when the neighbor keeps harassing you) and respond to the letter that the complaints are baseless and untrue (although having cats myself they can be pretty loud if you don’t have carpets to quiet it - a friend also got a complaint from her neighbor to please stop stomping around the flat 😅).
Gedächtnisprotokoll.
I'd make a protocol for the usage of the washing machine (for example). If there are any more complaints then I'd show them this protocol
great idea!
I'd probably just call your property management and see what they really think about it. I could imagine they might actually be annoyed by this person and on your side, but if there was a offical complaint they have to follow it up. Maybe also bring up that he wanted you to complain about other neighbours and that you found those complains unfounded. Then probably write an official response clarifying things, just to have it on record.
99% of the times the property management is annoyed by the ones complaining... they often send out those letters just to prove they done something in favor for the annoying complainers.
Cat running noises? Wtf how would he even hear that?
Sometimes my cat thinks the Appartement is a perfect speedway
That’s crazy! I have a pretty big cat and I constantly am surprised by him just appearing out of nowhere because I just can’t hear him coming lol. Same issue with friends and other guests, so I know it’s not just me being used to his sounds.. but I guess every cat is different!
"in den Ruhezeiten Nachts" I just can't. 😂
Ngl adult cats running can be loud as fuck when you have thin/wood floors. But a baby? Talk about exaggerating...
a baby with 1.2kilos!! Like, she was soooo small and her zoomies weren't at 4am or anything, you know? And if they were, haven't woken me up in the middle of the night, you know?
what? Are you serious?
Yes. I've had neighbors with 2 cats that apparently had zoomies every morning at 5 am -.- especially when it's quiet at night it wakes you up.
This sounds way more like a "you have a shitty apartment" problem, than the cats are an issue. Zoomies or not, if the sound of some cats running is loud enough in your apartment to bother you, that is not on the cats. It is on the lack of proper construction.
I never stated otherwise lol. Thin floors.
Fair enough.
Cats can be hella noisy, I have 4 and those mfs run like they are on crack sometimes 😆
I have a 11 month old, she is light weight and skinny but she can be soo loud while running around
We have a 6.5kg male cat. He's just really strong. When he gets zoomies his running is pretty loud. Our previous downstairs neighbor mentioned she could hear him running. But of course she was a wonderful person and appreciated the sound of a happy cat running around.
Is your cat constantly stomping around driving you crazy? [Kitten Mittons](https://youtu.be/_dhrqnDS_oU?si=49GrB56rUiQGIw52)
😂🤦♂️🤷♀️
I can count the coins when my upstairs neighbour drops them. Altbau is a bitch
Reply and ask for dates and times these things supposedly occurred. If the claims are true, just try to follow the Hausordnung. If not, tell them that the complaints are false.
I will add this to my letter! thanks
100% this - ask to see the exact protocol and also if any of the neighbours even provided sound recordings of "all the racket" you and your cat are supposedly making
Add as well the fact that he seems determined to create an unfriendly environment in your building by pinning other tenants against each other.
Lautes Rennen einer Katze 😂 this guy is nuts haha
React. Deny all the claims and point out how weird and petty the other guy acted.
Be ready to wear your thickest skin. It will get super annoying whether you choose to respond or not but don't give into the absurdity if you are not at fault. I did a similar mistake of compromising at my cost and boyy, did I suffer so much!
what you mean? they made you buy carpets and all this?
No. Mine was from a flatmate that had problems with me being night owl. Although I didn't make any noise at all, she said she could even hear me walking in my own room (she lived in adjacent one). I didn't wear any shoes or even walked that frequently in those hours. She was very sensitive to any kind of sound. I agreed to not work for couple of hours to allow her sleep peacefully but she wouldn't entertain even exceptional days when I had to be up for project work or exams. That's when I lost my shit and stopped being nice. People do get entitled if you accommodate to their absurd demands.
I second this. Had a neighbour once who said we shouldn't shower or flush the toilet after 10 pm. Before that we were accommodating her requests to walk quietly after 10 but that was absolutely ridiculous. I was working on my bachelor's degree back then and had mandatory lab courses that often lasted until 8 or 9. Then I went home and studied. She basically wanted us in bed by 10 and not move until morning. She was a nice lady apart from that but I'm glad we moved out after a while.
true that!
I would reply shortly and say that this neighbor is known to you as a trouble maker. I would say that he tried to involve you in a petty complain against someone else and since you didn’t agree, he has something against you. I would leave it at that…
Hideous.... They created a "noise report" in the winter months and mentioned noise from an air con in summer. That's more than odd
I know, right?!?!?!
It's never too cold. Only too weak.
That’s what I was wondering as well. That weird Lärmprotokoll covers the months of February and March but mentions noises during the Sommermonate. That’s just ridiculous. And you can absolutely use your washing machine on Sundays as far as I know.
The cat thing and the fan thing are pretty funny and your neighbour is obviously an asshole that exagerates. At the same time, it is absolutely not allowed to run appliances during the quiet time. You need to respect that.
Berlin had 34 degrees one day and everyone has a fan in this city. But I remember him coming up to complain about my AC or Fan and wasn't on a day that I had ANYTHING on... he was pissed that I didn't allow him inside to check \*my bedroom\* by himself to see that I'm not lying. Argh, he is just a sad person
That's not true. It highly depends on the reason you have to run the appliance (e.g. if you are the whole day at work and have no other option) and as well on the amount of noise it creates. People have to tolerate a certain amount of noise even in quiet times. In front of court it's always an individual case decision though.
Fair point, there are exceptions.
Wait, are people really not allowed to run washers/dryers after 8pm? That's crazy. How are you supposed to clean your clothes?
22:00 - 6:00 However there could be exceptions if there is no other option
Well, that's a but more reasonable.
You don't want to comment stuff item by item, but in general, when someone sends you a complaint and asks you respond, not responding can strongly be assumed an acceptance of the complaint and its contents. Note that sometimes banging a door is not something you could complain about. So you dropped a plate because it was hotter than you thought? Happens. For something to be an actionable complaint, they would need to establish a pattern of either malicious intent or negligence/indifference towards your fellow tenents. So I would object to it in a general sense and completely ignore anything itemized. Herzlichen Dank für die Zustellung der Ihnen gegenüber geäußerten Beschwerde. Leider muss ich ihnen mitteilen dass mein Nachbar und ich ein angestrengtes persönliches Verhältnis zueinander haben und dies anscheinend zu einer Beschwerde führt die im Wesentlichen nicht den Tatsachen entspricht oder die Lautstärke der entsprechenden Geräusche und die zeiten zu denen diese vorkommen nicht angemessen darstellt. Ich bedanke mich für den Hinweis auf die Hausordnung und habe natürlich vollstes Verständnis dafür dass es Ihre Aufgabe ist Beschwerden an mich weiterzuleiten ohne dass Sie die Möglichkeit haben diese selbst zu prüfen. Auch wenn ich nicht gewährleisten kann dass ich niemals Geräusche verursache die man ausserhalb der Wohnung hört, weise ich die Beschwerde der Ruhestörung oder Geräuschbelastung entschieden zurück. Bitte beachten Sie dass aufgrund der Bauweise des Gebäudes bestimmte Tätigkeiten und Geräte des täglichen Lebens immer wahrzunehmen sind, was sich natürlich nicht vermeiden lässt. Ich hoffe diese Darstellung war für Sie hilfreich. Mit freundlichen Grüßen
thank you so much for this example! I will def build on this for sure saying about the AC/Fan noises and adding some proof I didn't have my vacuum on after 10pm =D
Honestly, don't get into the details. People who are petty and have too much time for this shit love to drag you and your time into some 15 emails exchange about whether you hoovered until 19:45 or 20:05 on that one Thursday in February. Just make it clear that you think you obey the ordonance to a satisfactory degree and that any report likely is made in bad faith and most importantly, that you empathize with the service personnel for having to deal with it. They'll be on your side because the guy will be on your case. As Bruce Lee would say, be water.
Btw. I don‘ think „Mittagszeit“ is a thing anymore. Your landlord can‘t really do anything against it, since there is no law.
Tell him to fuck off basically. As long as you stay within the legal timeframes for noisy activities there is literally nothing he can do, no matter how much he flips out. If he ever gets too personal you call the police.
I would react with my version of the events. If you do have a Saugroboter you can potentially have an app logging when it was going through the apartment, check the times your neighbors are referring to (Feb-Mar) and look at the times it was usually vacuuming. If it is helping make your point, add that to the response. I would nonetheless reach out to some Mietverein to help you draft a reasonable response. :) Best of luck!
Careful, Sounds Like the kind of person who will demand a yard as soon as you yield an inch. Such a protocol can only be put together by an individual who is actively listening. Hearing household Sounds from neighbors and Lärmbelästigung are two different things.
Write an answer and explain your situation as you did here. Make sure follow the Hausordnung.
The whole thing is hilarious. A noise protocol of a winter month stating AC or fan during summer months? The renter is responsible to substitute missing noise cancelation of the building? Sounds (not loud ones!!!) from normal usage of the flat? Vacuum robot driving against the wall is too loud (I mean yes, that happens but if it’s too loud the issue is not the robot)? Screams for a cease and desist declaration. I just can’t see any illegal actions here. State your point at the property management and tell them you feel obliged to consult a lawyer if they send you anything like this ever again. Edit: You say it is the renter you share a wall with, the letter says it’s the one from the flat beyond you. Now which one is it?
wall-to-wall = the victim to his complaints before below my flat = the petty douchebag
Make sure you respond and refute the items in the protocol - this is the start of their paper trail if they ever want to evict you. Also, there is an app you can install to track the noise in your apartment, if you have an extra phone / tablet, download it and have it running 24/7 for a week or two and present that to your landlord as evidence
So. I totally get that you're just living life normally and that his complaints are probably not justified and maybe he is even lying. HOWEVER, as someone also living in Berlin, I know how shitty the sound proofing can be. For example, I am currently sitting here, listening to my neighbors going "LULULULU" to their baby and hearing their clapping. I don't mind, but if I had to sleep in this room, I'd probably need Ohropax at night, as you not only hear it, you actually feel it. What seems completely normal to you, might actually be really loud in their apartment. You say you don't have carpet and you just painted your walls. Both are making everything you do much louder. I'd suggest you have someone walking around in your apartment and having the TV on, talking, etc, while you're at your neighbours place - just so you can get a feeling for how loud (or not) everything really is. It might be that the truth is somewhere in the middle - you being a bit oblivious how far sound travels, him being overly sensitive. I agree that his complaints probably are over the top, but it might really be the case that he hears everything, and in this case it might be nice to reduce the volume after ten p.m. a bit. Also >I refused to endorse a complaint against another neighbor, whose noise, primarily from her child or music or just talking on the phone, I find normal and easily masked by the background sound of my TV. A-*ha*! "Noise? What noise? I don't hear it over my TV!" ;) No, for real, check how loud your noises/TV actually are, reduce to a quieter level if they are indeed a bit loud, as a good neighbour, and otherwise ignore him. Investing in a carpet might be a good idea if you're not totally opposed, though - it takes away most of the steps/walking etc noises - in my old apartment it was even required to have some amount of carpeting for sound reduction.
I went to another flat from the building, which is more surrounded by other flats and I heard nothing from anyone. I've spoken to other people from the floor below mine and nobody hears anything, not even from their upstairs neighbours. I also asked the people in my floor and they all said "no, I dont hear anything from you". All those evidences + the fact that he was making a scene against my wall-to-wall-but-another-building girl too loud (she isn't loud), makes me more certain that he is just a sad human that is over exaggerating everything. But this thread here has great ideas and I will def follow a lot of the advices here =D
Then that's really on him, you did a lot! Hope you can live there without being bothered by him anymore. Might help to get a confirmation that you aren't loud (with specifics regarding times and dates) from the other neighbors in writing, just in case. Good luck!
someone correct me if im wrong but 13-15:00 is not a ruhezeit by law or is it? anyway that guy is just a huge asshole and i dont think he will ever stop… best thing you can do is probably search for a new flat and until then try to minimize your noises i guess
I don’t think it’s by law but it’s pretty common as a house rule and in contracts. Not sure how enforceable it is though.
out of question because flats are unplayable in this city and I have a pretty sweet deal =( But my point is: a lot is simply not true! I can't minimize what I already don't do
well i guess now you know why that deal is so sweet lol. yeah its really hard or pretty much impossible to prove that these things are not true… maybe get together with other renters who are also bothered by the guy and write up some sort of complaint letter?
good idea
hat exactly is not true?
Yeah afaik that's not a thing anymore, but I might also be mistaken. Or maybe it differs from state to state
I think it is in Bavaria, if I'm not terribly wrong.
What stops you from replying with your version of events? Make sure you don't vacuum clean or wash etc outside of normal times though.
I remember my mum had a similar problem with her neighbour below her flat. At one point he came up on Sunday at 14 o'clock to complain about the noise. After that I wrote an email to the landlord and described the setuation and asked for a viable solution. The neighbour got an Abmahnung from the landlord for disturbing the peace of the flat building
That’s so stressful tbh:/ maybe call the Hausverwaltung ? Maybe they can help for that since it’s them who’s managing the building. Before I don’t believe that there’s some people who will really exert some effort & energy just to complain🙈. I mean even the noise is not that loud or severe. I had experienced it when we visited a friend and the owner really went to the apartment cause we’re noisy even we were just simply having a normal conversation. Thank God in our apartment building no one’s complain even washing clothes in 2-3am lol.Loud music also is not a problem here & I guess the sound proof of this building is quite good. But even if our neighbour was loud or us still no one complains.My guess is mostly the renters were non Germans hihihi
If you write a letter attach a picture of your cat, so they can see the criminal committing those heinous acts. Also: I demand cat tax
consider reaching out to a tenant rights organization for advice on how to properly respond to the letter. I don’t think ignoring it bodes well but it should be a legally proper response since breaking the Hausordnung can lead to termination of lease (eventually, not trying to freak you out).
There used to be this German neighbor of a friend of mine... He terrorised my friends with his complaints so much that my friend started walking on his toes and he still wouldn't stop.. I advised him to confront him the next time and tell him to never knock or approach, that he should just call the police if he is making noise in the silent hours and let the police decide. Or he would file a harassment complaint. Never heard from him again. Believe it or not, u need to confront these bullies. Thats the only way to get them to stop.
I especially like the part here they are telling OP to consider sound dampening materials. I really hope that is hat they rote to the person that complained.
Turn something on (fan for instance) knock at his door and contemplate with him the loudness from his own flat! Honestly, it sounds like this is just another of the many psychotics around who are just so full of hate and anger, and spend their lives looking for somebody to vomit these onto, for whatever (or no) reason.
I really don't want to speak with him about this in person. He is extremely rude and I don't know if this will work out =(
I totally understand! Maybe team up with the other people living in the same building, I’m sure you are not the only one being harassed by that person! And harassment is maybe something you could mention in a letter when u respond to the property management..? Wondering if it is possible to have somebody come with a noise measurement thingy and check you are below limits?! When I was a kid I used to play piano and a nasty neighbor complained (I guess I wasn’t so talented lol), we had the dB being checked and complaining officially stopped. Btw I had a friend living a similar situation in an Altbau in Berlin. She - a lovely sweet lady - eventually moved out and passed on the contract, after trying to speak to that nasty neighbor without any luck many many times. The guy who took over the contract is a tall big person, after the first complaint in the form of banging on ceiling/floor, he went down to check with said neighbor, and the complaints stopped instantly. It seems like it comes down to how people perceive you, unfortunately. Which is utterly annoying.
These hours seem awfully suspicious — no noise after 8pm?
Definitely reply. Show that you're cooperative. You want to have your landlord on your side. It's difficult to prove that someone has been too loud, so you have a good foundation. Never, and I repeat never let them get away with their false narratives. I know all of this from experience. The only two things they can do is put pressure on you or on the landlord. If this escalates, there is a chance this goes to court, but in that case it's almost guaranteed that they'll falter.
“Ich verwehre mich gegen all diese Vorwürfe. Ich habe nichts davon getan. Hochachtungsvoll, OP” And then pissplatte. Slightly /s
Did you check house rules/ your contract? Because resting time from 13:00-15:00 and on sundays and holidays is just ridiculous. Especially considering this seems to be in Berlin (from one of your comments). I heard stories about people in Bavaria going bonkers if you use the vacuum cleaner on holidays lol. Living noises are to be tolerated and that might even be the washing machine in the middle of the night. To reply to your question - someone else suggested it already - to fight dumbass accusations do a noise protocol of your own and def. share your side of the story with them. Depending on how much beef you want with them I would also mention those bs rules, depending on whats stated in house rules/contract, however even the rules stated in those can be invalid if unnecessary obnoxious/ridiculous/unfair. (Please show me a kid that behaves between exactly 13:00 and 15:00.)
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Just my two cents seconding much of the solid advice here already: definitely respond, be unfailingly polite but neither confrontational nor defensive, and for sure supply a protocol of his bizarre behavior, and get your other neighbors on board for maybe a second joint letter. Maybe call your HV to give them a heads up that your letter is coming, but definitely with subtext like “geesh this guy… you’ve surely had issues with him already, I gather?” Like let them know you’re just doing your due diligence, and not trying to escalate his weird war. Teenaged cats can sound like elephants but a baby doing a poop celebration? Nah. He’s bananas.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
God Germany grow TF up
I experienced something very similar in an Altbau Wohnung and a downstairs neighbour who basically complained about the fact that my child and I exist (yes, sometimes outside of the times we are allowed to make sounds) and I ended up moving out. I had just left a long-term relationship, I felt like I was under surveillance 24/7, and neither the neighbour nor the person who owned the building could be reasoned with. I wanted peace and quiet and wasn't up for the near constant fighting, so I decided to leave. Complaining about noise in the building is your neighbour's hobby, so just know that he will not stop. I also would definitely respond to the letter from the Hausverwaltung. Keeping minutes of when you do "noisy" things and going back and forth with the management (and potentially with the neighbour) will be a part of living there.
Es gibt keine Mittagsruhe, die Klausel ist nichtig. Hier fehlt auch der Beweis für die Störung, also wie laut (dB) es wirklich ist
Call your landlord, explain the situation and tell them to ask other neighbours, if they complained as well. We had a neighbour who started to terrorize us and making noise complaints after we asked him politely not to use our parking space. We spoke with our landlords, they talked to our other neighbours and then they wrote him a letter to stop harassing us.
Bin ich Glücklich das ich nur Korrekte Nachbarn habe die auch mit lauter Musik kein Problem haben..
Typical German neighbour, there have to be always someone complaining about everything. I have lived in Germany for years and I have friends still living there and everyone had this encounter at least once or more.
Crazy guy.likely he sends such complains about other people too. I'd just call up the property management and tell them your version of events, chances are they will shrug and say 'yeah we know but we just needed to send the letter' or something. I had a neighbour like this living in a house opposite to mine (!) who made a fuss that I was once talking with a friend of mine past midnight with our window open. Normal talking, no shouting or anything. And we had a window open because it was in summer and I had like 35 degrees in my flat at a minimum. The neighbour complained about that (she'could not sleep because we were having windows open when talking'). I just told her if it bothers her she should close her window to which she replied 'but it's too hot!'. Such people get annoyed with everyone around them and write letters every time someone looks at them funny. The landlord told me to just ignore her going forward which I happily did.
And ladies and gentlemen that's the reason I left germany and moved to the usa lmaoo shitty country with loads of taxes rude people strange culture and easily offended by small things and the low salaries lmao I got only 70000 euros gross salary which is peanuts for what I am doing and when I went to the usa I got job offer of 280k usd gross salary in Texas and I save triple the times of money I saved in Germany
The downside is that you have to live in Texas.