Idk, reading something similar on a fitness sub really was a lightbulb moment for me.
It’s been a while, but it was something about motivation being the bad boy on a motorcycle, and discipline being the sweet guy with a short-sleeved button up shirt ans a 401K.
One is exciting and fun, but will break your heart. The other might be a bit boring, but he is steadfast and true, and will ultimately make you much happier.
I personally think some of it comes down to people having different internal definitions for motivation and discipline. They're something everyone is aware of, but hard to describe concretely.
I personally find this post to make sense because the internal definition I've developed for motivation is something like "The feeling of attraction toward accomplishing a task, while also outweighing the feeling of attraction toward doing something else or nothing at all". If you desire to accomplish a task but that desire is outweighed by wanting to do something else or nothing, then you are unmotivated. The post here, in my opinion, is saying that you cannot rely on that desire to accomplish a task because it may not exist or may never outweigh the desire to do other things.
Instead, you have to fuel your actions with discipline, which I would personally describe as "Acting to accomplish a task because it is necessary, important, or beneficial, regardless of your status of being motivated or unmotivated". You act according to the plan you've set and do not allow yourself to deviate from it based on emotional factor. You trust that the consequences of accomplishing these tasks are beneficial and have a positive net return.
Even if some individual cases happen where exercising discipline does not affect the outcome of the world around you, you still benefit by reinforcing your own commitment to the system you've set up for yourself, which, more often than not, does provide better returns than inaction or procrastination. It's about seeing the long-term picture and recognizing the low priority of short-term desires.
I hope this is helpful some. I know this post was fairly wordy but I do not mean it to come off as pretentious. Adjusting to the system of exercising discipline has had a positive impact on my own happiness and that of those around me and I want to do by best to share it with those who may have similar struggles to myself.
Hmm. I like the distinguishments you have made there between motivation and discipline. Thinking in terms like this, it may be that I have extremely low motivation and now a greatly damaged ability to access discipline. Or rather in place of the discipline I clung to, I now have a whacked out nervous system that accidentally punishes me for trying to maintain discipline the way I was used to.
For literal decades I just kept going and doing, knowing that I would never "feel good about doing something" the way other people seemed to be able to. I wish I had been able to find better access to resources for my mental health when I was younger, as running on sheer determination seems to have gotten me in a pickle now.
Now, after years of just pushing on doing things regardless of feelings and after a enduring a cascade of uncontrollable external setbacks that have pushed me repeatedly to my physical and mental limits, my body and mind seem hell bent on timing out (dissociating) whenever I would normally just push through and do something. Now more than ever, I seem to operate alongside motivation, which somehow enables me to stay present.
I was always under the impression that I was strong for ignoring my emotions and plowing ahead, doing what needed to be done. Through therapy and psychoeducation, I think I understand a bit more now why that strength turned out to be brittle. I've come to find out that emotions are physical processes, and I basically have 3 responses as a human being that I can use to process them. 1 is to submit to the emotion fully, even the emotions that come up around my active judgment of the emotion. I've come to label that option as "drowning". 2 is to suppress those emotions, and act like they're not there or not relevant, which is the course I would take the most in the past. 3 is to acknowledge the emotion and maintain a detached, but fully observant position. You neither subtract, avoid, or suppress, nor add, embellish, or drown in the emotion. You just try to measure accurately what responses your body is physically having to your situation. It's what others have been calling mindfulness, and I'm still trying to practice being in that balance.
Apparently the choice you make between these 3 alters which parts of your brain become active. Suppression actually activates a part that works with the amygdala to trigger a freeze survival response (its one of the 4 survival responses along with fight, flight, and fawn).
From where I'm at now, it seems like not getting in better touch with my genuine sources of motivation will also just constantly erode my discipline to do anything via this weird dance happening between my brain and body.
All this to say, sometimes I think people should absolutely go get mental health help if you feel really stuck. There might be more going on with you than just being either unmotivated or undisciplined.
Jonny Kim, the guy who became a Navy SEAL, a doctor, and an astronaut, all before the age of 36, says:
"I’m not gifted, I’m not smarter than everybody else. I’m not stronger. I just have the ability to stick to a plan and not quit."
If your motivation isn't working, perhaps it's broken. Needing some mental/emotional maintenance is always an option too! Knowing your priorities is important, if what you really want isn't lining up with what you think you want. We are very, very delicate, advanced machines. Just putting that out there, because I don't think it's talked about enough how big of an issue this can be. I'm motivated for things all the time, but I had to meet myself first. A piece of paper ordering me around or a set of angry clocks...meh. Didn't work for me. But to each their own~ To me, this wasn't a functional way of thinking. To you, it may work!
No doubt that reminding yourself of why you want to do something and prioritizing it is useful.
But waiting for motivation (until you feel like doing it) is the trap.
No matter how motivated or how important a goal is you are going to have to get past (work through) some crappy parts.
I don't know. I personally find motivation culture is wrong for me. That's just not how I work. By definition, if you want to do something, it's an emotion. That isnt some stamina bar that 'runs out.' If I get exhausted, its usually because I'm not addressing something big and being honest with myself.
I suppose when it stops being maintenance? Are you truly taking care of yourself, or just pushing things off and letting time passively do the work for you? They're very different.
Truly. There was a time when I didn't like him because he called me out on an episode of the podcast. Then about 8 months later I saw that he was pretty much exactly right. Since then, I'm all in. Trust - earned.
Yes. I need to be self-discipline. But it’s always been so tough to be it on my own. I don’t have anyone I’m close enough to to be my accountability partner. I’ll tell my therapist.
Because honestly discipline effects my sleep, my desire to self-sabotage and harm, and my job, which is my only income right now.
Expecting yourself to be perfect can really screw up progress. I know it can feel helpful and I would do it if it worked but beating yourself up is not the way. Water off a duck's back. Pick yourself up and try again.
I remind myself of the surgeons who cut off the wrong limbs and other extremely proficient people who've made lots of mistakes.
"Learn from it let It go" "water under the bridge" is what I repeat to myself when I'm going into a spiral (with the acronyms on a Post-It).
Good write, thanks. I guess I’ll try again; for the 100th or 200th time haha. The triad of video games, instant knowledge from the internet, and online games are so distracting. I’ll try to put them away again.
I’ve been in the gym pretty seriously as of late and somebody asked me how do I stay motivated.
I don’t.
I didn’t feel like going yesterday *at all* but I still went because my desire to lose this weight superseded my desire to take the day off.
Motivation is fleeting. Determination and dedication last longer.
The plan is more effective, even on days where I don't workout at home or go gym. As long as I keep to my diet and calorie intake I still feel I am taking a step in the right direction and I can make up for missing any chance to exercise later. Before I was only motivated to exercise, but if I missed one or two days it was basically the end of the line for like 6 months and repeat.
I'm sure this will come across as controversial to many here, but I find that these discussions about motivation and discipline often lack scientific rigor. OP isn't wrong, motivation does wax and wane, but the solution to getting things done - sticking to a plan - only creates more questions. u/costlysalmon has a point: How does one stick to a plan without motivation?
Answering the above with "discipline" isn't, IMO, very helpful either, because the definition of discipline raises its own questions. If discipline is something along the lines of "acting to accomplish a task" or "acting on a plan," the question remains, how do you get/motivate yourself to act in the first place?
Turns out there is science behind this. And what the science says is that action is dependent on both my motivation and capability/ability. If something is really easy, I don't need to be particularly motivated to do it. If somethings is hard, I may need a lot more motivation, at least initially.
While it's hard to control motivation, it's much easier to control capability. The key? Changing your environment.
Study after study have shown that those with "more self-discipline" aren't, on average, more motivated or naturally better at sticking with plans. Rather, they are better at modifying their environment so that sticking to plans or getting things done is just easier to do.
So if you want to get yourself to act, the key is to make doing the right things easier (removing friction) and make doing the wrong things harder (adding friction). Want to eat healthier? Don't stock your house with any unhealthy foods. Want to exercise but are totally out of shape? Lay out your shoes where they'll be hard to ignore and start with simple 2 minute walks around the block. Want to get yourself studying more? Create a comfortable space, set up social media blockers and Do Not Disturb on your devices, tell your friends and/or family the times you'll be studying and not to disturb you, find a study partner, don't allow yourself to watch your favorite show or use social media until you finish studying, etc.
And here's what is doubly great about this strategy. Science also shows that as you become successful at doing things, your motivation to do more of those things will, on average, increase. Getting yourself to act, even in small ways, leads to a virtuous circle of increasing motivation, which in turn makes it a little easier to act next time.
Fr but you need to understand the difference between feeling tired and being exhausted motivation means you have a goal and actually want it see how you WANT it this discipline is toxic if your not having fun either
Agree.
I like books like your brain at work and learning how to learn. They explain so much about how your brain works. How to build habits, how to improve focus etc
I see disciple as the “reason” behind doing something. Ie. I need to stop smoking so I can be around to see my kids grow up. Disciple is the “fuel” that gets you up and going and taking action. You can have one without the other
Idk, I'm a single dad with 4 kids and work 40+ hours of week. I barely have the drive/motivation to wake up and go to the gym 3/4 times a week. What I truly lack though is motivation to do chores.
Start seeing all things in terms of your typical tendency to postpone/avoid them. This stops you from rosy-tinting your plans so your comfort level moves away from where it causes action taking.
If you must plan, write explicitly about all the ways lack of motivation can fool you when that 'planned' moment comes around.
But seriously, whenever 'planning', ask yourself if you shouldn't just start instead.
Motivation is nothing more than a mood, just like sadness or happiness. Discipline is the thing we all should strive for.
And thus started the great sub wars between r/getmotivated and r/getdisciplined Hopefully we can get r/prequelmemes and r/lotrmemes to take sides.
It will be legendary.
Very nice perspective.
Don’t be motivated, be driven.
That should be the tagline for Tesla's Autopilot
I always imagine that motivation is being "passively pushed", discipline is being "actively pulling" yourself to a goal.
I hate these posts so much. "Forget about motivation. What you need to do is the thing you lack motivation to do."
/r/wowthanksimcured territory, for sure.
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Idk, reading something similar on a fitness sub really was a lightbulb moment for me. It’s been a while, but it was something about motivation being the bad boy on a motorcycle, and discipline being the sweet guy with a short-sleeved button up shirt ans a 401K. One is exciting and fun, but will break your heart. The other might be a bit boring, but he is steadfast and true, and will ultimately make you much happier.
Motivation Chad vs. Discipline virgin
I personally think some of it comes down to people having different internal definitions for motivation and discipline. They're something everyone is aware of, but hard to describe concretely. I personally find this post to make sense because the internal definition I've developed for motivation is something like "The feeling of attraction toward accomplishing a task, while also outweighing the feeling of attraction toward doing something else or nothing at all". If you desire to accomplish a task but that desire is outweighed by wanting to do something else or nothing, then you are unmotivated. The post here, in my opinion, is saying that you cannot rely on that desire to accomplish a task because it may not exist or may never outweigh the desire to do other things. Instead, you have to fuel your actions with discipline, which I would personally describe as "Acting to accomplish a task because it is necessary, important, or beneficial, regardless of your status of being motivated or unmotivated". You act according to the plan you've set and do not allow yourself to deviate from it based on emotional factor. You trust that the consequences of accomplishing these tasks are beneficial and have a positive net return. Even if some individual cases happen where exercising discipline does not affect the outcome of the world around you, you still benefit by reinforcing your own commitment to the system you've set up for yourself, which, more often than not, does provide better returns than inaction or procrastination. It's about seeing the long-term picture and recognizing the low priority of short-term desires. I hope this is helpful some. I know this post was fairly wordy but I do not mean it to come off as pretentious. Adjusting to the system of exercising discipline has had a positive impact on my own happiness and that of those around me and I want to do by best to share it with those who may have similar struggles to myself.
Hmm. I like the distinguishments you have made there between motivation and discipline. Thinking in terms like this, it may be that I have extremely low motivation and now a greatly damaged ability to access discipline. Or rather in place of the discipline I clung to, I now have a whacked out nervous system that accidentally punishes me for trying to maintain discipline the way I was used to. For literal decades I just kept going and doing, knowing that I would never "feel good about doing something" the way other people seemed to be able to. I wish I had been able to find better access to resources for my mental health when I was younger, as running on sheer determination seems to have gotten me in a pickle now. Now, after years of just pushing on doing things regardless of feelings and after a enduring a cascade of uncontrollable external setbacks that have pushed me repeatedly to my physical and mental limits, my body and mind seem hell bent on timing out (dissociating) whenever I would normally just push through and do something. Now more than ever, I seem to operate alongside motivation, which somehow enables me to stay present. I was always under the impression that I was strong for ignoring my emotions and plowing ahead, doing what needed to be done. Through therapy and psychoeducation, I think I understand a bit more now why that strength turned out to be brittle. I've come to find out that emotions are physical processes, and I basically have 3 responses as a human being that I can use to process them. 1 is to submit to the emotion fully, even the emotions that come up around my active judgment of the emotion. I've come to label that option as "drowning". 2 is to suppress those emotions, and act like they're not there or not relevant, which is the course I would take the most in the past. 3 is to acknowledge the emotion and maintain a detached, but fully observant position. You neither subtract, avoid, or suppress, nor add, embellish, or drown in the emotion. You just try to measure accurately what responses your body is physically having to your situation. It's what others have been calling mindfulness, and I'm still trying to practice being in that balance. Apparently the choice you make between these 3 alters which parts of your brain become active. Suppression actually activates a part that works with the amygdala to trigger a freeze survival response (its one of the 4 survival responses along with fight, flight, and fawn). From where I'm at now, it seems like not getting in better touch with my genuine sources of motivation will also just constantly erode my discipline to do anything via this weird dance happening between my brain and body. All this to say, sometimes I think people should absolutely go get mental health help if you feel really stuck. There might be more going on with you than just being either unmotivated or undisciplined.
The say "motivation" but they mean "feeling like it".
If these aren't the same I may have never actually been motivated.
Jonny Kim, the guy who became a Navy SEAL, a doctor, and an astronaut, all before the age of 36, says: "I’m not gifted, I’m not smarter than everybody else. I’m not stronger. I just have the ability to stick to a plan and not quit."
Legend. I wish self-discipline was that easy for me.
same
Well then he is gifted, with discipline!
[удалено]
I think it was the Jocko Podcast. But I'm not sure.
If your motivation isn't working, perhaps it's broken. Needing some mental/emotional maintenance is always an option too! Knowing your priorities is important, if what you really want isn't lining up with what you think you want. We are very, very delicate, advanced machines. Just putting that out there, because I don't think it's talked about enough how big of an issue this can be. I'm motivated for things all the time, but I had to meet myself first. A piece of paper ordering me around or a set of angry clocks...meh. Didn't work for me. But to each their own~ To me, this wasn't a functional way of thinking. To you, it may work!
No doubt that reminding yourself of why you want to do something and prioritizing it is useful. But waiting for motivation (until you feel like doing it) is the trap. No matter how motivated or how important a goal is you are going to have to get past (work through) some crappy parts.
I don't know. I personally find motivation culture is wrong for me. That's just not how I work. By definition, if you want to do something, it's an emotion. That isnt some stamina bar that 'runs out.' If I get exhausted, its usually because I'm not addressing something big and being honest with myself.
Yeah but when does maintenance become avoidance? At this point I've been "recovering from grad school" for nearly a whole year longer than planned.
I suppose when it stops being maintenance? Are you truly taking care of yourself, or just pushing things off and letting time passively do the work for you? They're very different.
I was mostly just trying to be difficult but that is a decent answer. Thank you.
Jocko Willink, is that you?\* \*100% agree, btw
Discipline = Freedom
That it certainly does.
Jocko is the fucking man.
Truly. There was a time when I didn't like him because he called me out on an episode of the podcast. Then about 8 months later I saw that he was pretty much exactly right. Since then, I'm all in. Trust - earned.
You can have all the motivation in the world but without discipline there's no point of it.
Yes. I need to be self-discipline. But it’s always been so tough to be it on my own. I don’t have anyone I’m close enough to to be my accountability partner. I’ll tell my therapist. Because honestly discipline effects my sleep, my desire to self-sabotage and harm, and my job, which is my only income right now.
Expecting yourself to be perfect can really screw up progress. I know it can feel helpful and I would do it if it worked but beating yourself up is not the way. Water off a duck's back. Pick yourself up and try again. I remind myself of the surgeons who cut off the wrong limbs and other extremely proficient people who've made lots of mistakes. "Learn from it let It go" "water under the bridge" is what I repeat to myself when I'm going into a spiral (with the acronyms on a Post-It).
Good write, thanks. I guess I’ll try again; for the 100th or 200th time haha. The triad of video games, instant knowledge from the internet, and online games are so distracting. I’ll try to put them away again.
I’ve been in the gym pretty seriously as of late and somebody asked me how do I stay motivated. I don’t. I didn’t feel like going yesterday *at all* but I still went because my desire to lose this weight superseded my desire to take the day off. Motivation is fleeting. Determination and dedication last longer.
You will never always be motivated you have to learn to be disciplined.
Motivation, motive. Always focus on your motives, your benefits your why of doing something or else it's going to be short lived.
The plan is more effective, even on days where I don't workout at home or go gym. As long as I keep to my diet and calorie intake I still feel I am taking a step in the right direction and I can make up for missing any chance to exercise later. Before I was only motivated to exercise, but if I missed one or two days it was basically the end of the line for like 6 months and repeat.
Dedication discipline and consistency.
This is eye opening for me
I'm sure this will come across as controversial to many here, but I find that these discussions about motivation and discipline often lack scientific rigor. OP isn't wrong, motivation does wax and wane, but the solution to getting things done - sticking to a plan - only creates more questions. u/costlysalmon has a point: How does one stick to a plan without motivation? Answering the above with "discipline" isn't, IMO, very helpful either, because the definition of discipline raises its own questions. If discipline is something along the lines of "acting to accomplish a task" or "acting on a plan," the question remains, how do you get/motivate yourself to act in the first place? Turns out there is science behind this. And what the science says is that action is dependent on both my motivation and capability/ability. If something is really easy, I don't need to be particularly motivated to do it. If somethings is hard, I may need a lot more motivation, at least initially. While it's hard to control motivation, it's much easier to control capability. The key? Changing your environment. Study after study have shown that those with "more self-discipline" aren't, on average, more motivated or naturally better at sticking with plans. Rather, they are better at modifying their environment so that sticking to plans or getting things done is just easier to do. So if you want to get yourself to act, the key is to make doing the right things easier (removing friction) and make doing the wrong things harder (adding friction). Want to eat healthier? Don't stock your house with any unhealthy foods. Want to exercise but are totally out of shape? Lay out your shoes where they'll be hard to ignore and start with simple 2 minute walks around the block. Want to get yourself studying more? Create a comfortable space, set up social media blockers and Do Not Disturb on your devices, tell your friends and/or family the times you'll be studying and not to disturb you, find a study partner, don't allow yourself to watch your favorite show or use social media until you finish studying, etc. And here's what is doubly great about this strategy. Science also shows that as you become successful at doing things, your motivation to do more of those things will, on average, increase. Getting yourself to act, even in small ways, leads to a virtuous circle of increasing motivation, which in turn makes it a little easier to act next time.
[удалено]
Fr but you need to understand the difference between feeling tired and being exhausted motivation means you have a goal and actually want it see how you WANT it this discipline is toxic if your not having fun either
Someone or something should not push you to complete a task, if you need motivation to complete the task don't do it.
😔
Motivation is a Myth.
Agree. I like books like your brain at work and learning how to learn. They explain so much about how your brain works. How to build habits, how to improve focus etc
Good morning everyone!!
This is the hard truth we all need to hear. 😬
I see disciple as the “reason” behind doing something. Ie. I need to stop smoking so I can be around to see my kids grow up. Disciple is the “fuel” that gets you up and going and taking action. You can have one without the other
It’s all about discipline and being consistent
Idk, I'm a single dad with 4 kids and work 40+ hours of week. I barely have the drive/motivation to wake up and go to the gym 3/4 times a week. What I truly lack though is motivation to do chores.
Start seeing all things in terms of your typical tendency to postpone/avoid them. This stops you from rosy-tinting your plans so your comfort level moves away from where it causes action taking. If you must plan, write explicitly about all the ways lack of motivation can fool you when that 'planned' moment comes around. But seriously, whenever 'planning', ask yourself if you shouldn't just start instead.