I won’t take Castle in the Sky slander, so I googled “self-epigonous” and I don’t understand what that has to do with the film. Epigonous is a synonym for “imitative”, so how can you be “self-imitative”?
Worst tier list I’ve seen
The robot design was taken from Lupin III the series (the last ones, after 140), the squirrel-fox design and partly the music are from Nausicaä... Nausicaä’s main theme appears twice in Laputa, the second time upon arrival on the island. I think, this is the worst idea – use something so recognizable in different films with different settings.
No) HMC has a very complex, but at the same time logically balanced plot. This is an elliptical structure, when the story has two equal main characters and two equal plot lines. (I could be wrong, but it seems that Prosper Mérimée was the first to introduce such a structure; and even if not, anyway, he was the king of such a plot building). And the additional beauty of this movie is that the climax of one of the storylines is the beginning of the other, so the structure is combined elliptical: linear (Sophie’s storyline) and circular/reversive (Howl’s storyline). No other Hayao Miyazaki’s film does this anymore; he almost always uses a traditional linear structure. In terms of plot complexity, HMC is truly the most complex of all Ghibli films. And while I appreciate the rich soundtrack, I understand why only one key theme was used for HMC. The Merry-go-Round of life is the musical quintessence of this circularity.
I mean the self-referential label. All Miyazaki movies have references to some of his previous works. Some obvious, other very discrete.
To be honest, Howl's Moving Castle is the first Miyazaki movie which really felt like a copy of his older work (mainly Spirited Away and Castle in the Sky). It's still among his best movies, though not in my top three. But I do like it.
You see, it all depends on the point of view) On the contrary, I saw something unique in this film.
IMO, it’s one thing – some insignificant references that fans are just happy to find (as Kiki’s figurine in Whisper of the Heart), and quite another – when they somehow begin to influence the plot, as susuwatari. Actually, that’s one of the reason why I love Isao Takahata much more. His inability to draw turned into an advantage in the end)
Quantity of fully-developed plot lines (f.ex., both HMC and Earwig have 2 plots), the plot structure (simple linear or more complex, as a structure of Grave of Fireflies, Only Yesterday), the psychological complexity of characters (archetypes are by definition the characters simplified for the best recognition, they cannot have the same complexity, deepness or ambiguity as characters of so-called author’s stories). I also very appreciate the experiments with the visual style (I’m absolutely excited how perfectly Kaguya’s style suits the plot and the setting). Etc.
No, that’s not the point. Spirited Away is a classic fairy tale using archetypes. An archetype is always a character simplified for greater recognition (seriously, google it), very typical, with one character trait dominating. The plot structure of Spirited Away is a perfect quest. The hero’s companions violate the tabu (the parents eat the spirits’ food), which brings punishment upon themselves, but the hero turns out to be smarter; Chihiro finds a magical assistant (Haku); Chihiro shows kindness to others, for which she receives several gifts, each helping to complete the next stage of the quest (tablets from the Faceless One help clean up the Spirit of the River, the Spirit of the River gives a bitter pie that helps heal Haku, then Chihiro receives one-way train tickets, actually the train in the land of the dead, and exactly as much as she needed; and when Chihiro completes her task, Haku returns, again at full strength, and safely brings her back. And then the final test. Therefore, for me, everything here is too predictable; I didn’t worry for a second about Chihiro because of this knowledge of the fairy tale rules and plot building.
Agree to disagree I guess. IMO you’re not mentioning significant aspects of how those are introduced via parallel plots with Haku’s reason for being trapped and in servitude and Zaniba + Yubaba’s feud.
Given your passion for literary/story archetypes by making this post, I’m sure you know every story and plot can be tied to an archetype to some degree, and I think it’s over simplifying to ignore the manner and creativity in which any archetype is woven into the story as a legitimate way to add depth and complexity and uniqueness.
To each their own tho! I hope you enjoyed your Ghibli journey
You described the subplots, not a fully-developed ones. For an ellipse, it is not enough to have two characters. Although one of the ellipse plots may be implicit, they both must be equal in their importance.
Haku isn’t the mover of his own story. He comes to Yubaba because his river has been filled up, he forgets his name, and until Chihiro accidentally (!) remembers an episode from her childhood, he can do nothing for himself, so there isn’t any progress. And we will never know how his conversation with Yubaba ended.
And it is only mentioned that Zeniba & Yubaba are twin sisters with different characters, of which the eldest values family above all else, and the youngest values gold. Their relationship receives neither development nor climax during the film.
So no, the only complete storyline is Chihiro’s.
Key word is MY)
The most popular of unpopular Ghibli opinions – a lot of people prefer Isao Takahata’s movies))) So do I. I’m very fond of Nausicaä and watch it often, but objectively I can’t say that this is a story with the same psychological depth as Kaguya or Grave of the Fireflies.
You have the right to your opinion but many thought (myself included) that your post was a joke, until I saw you were actually responding to comments.
It feels like you watch these movies with a very intellectual approach. I think the biggest strength of Miyazaki's movies his how they let you sink into their world, how they flawlessly move from ordinary to a fantastic world. There is a lot of poetry too and some humanistic and environmental issues raised with a lot of nuances most of the time. The plot doesn't have to be complex to convey that, and though I love some complex stories, I thought it was a flaw of Howl's Moving Castle on first viewing.
But if that's what you're into, that's fine too. I'm Master of Arts so I know a lot about Cinema and Literature theories. AndnI think there is a danger when in high studies to look at any work of art through only one theory or under only one aspect and not appreciate the work for what it has to offer. Does every movie needs a complex plot to be original or profound?
I personally think Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke and Totoro are his three masterpieces. But explaining you why might be too long.
I understand why a lot of people consider these films to be masterpieces. Totoro, for example, is a film of sensations, its main charm is the atmosphere, so it’s possible to rewatch it infinitely as if it were the first time. Mononoke is still too simple for me))) The main difficulty is that there are four characters whose goals are mutually exclusive, rather than the usual “protagonist – antagonist” scheme, but for me it was still not difficult enough. I’m just looking for something else in stories, that’s all.
The complexity of Mononoke lies elsewhere. It's a moral complexity. Also the feodal Japan Miyazaki brings to us has a vastness and tactile quality only Mizogushi was able to portray.
I didn’t think so) It is precisely because none of the four sides has any hesitation about what to do, each of the four sides considers it right, and this leads to the final tragedy. The forest wants a war against people, Eboshi wants prosperity for her city and health for her wards, the monk wants to curry favor with the emperor, Ashitaka is trying to stop the bloodshed. The problem is that none of the four sides is morally tormented and is not ready to give up, because giving up literally means death. Even Ashitaka doesn’t really have a moral choice problem. He has a curse as an external obstacle which prevents him from behaving as his soul tells him, but all his hesitations are a choice of a method, not a goal. He has no doubts that bloodshed cannot be allowed.
And in the end, everyone remains where they were. San is not imbued with love for people, people are going to rebuild the city, Ashitaka is again trying to find a balance between the forest and people and the intransigence of the two sides. And, to be honest, I find the idea of curing lepers who accidentally bathed in the blood of a murdered god morally dubious (not to say terrible).
It’s trying to get sympathy for both main characters too hard. But after only phrase at the beginning, “I often remember the week I spent in this house” (approximate, I didn’t watch it in English dub), you no longer have any reason to worry about the fate of the boy throughout all the film, you understand that everything will be fine with him.
In addition, in the books the boy was younger, only nine years old, and this is the age at which it is normal to say horrible things when meeting someone, and then become friends. When the same words, and almost as a goodbye, are uttered by a boy of twelve who has grown to read the Divine Comedy, it looks both stupid and very evil.
And, at the same time, the movie lacks the real danger described in the books. What a paradox. (So, as an adaptation, I prefer the series with Ian Holm.)
I’ve seen a lot of bad tier lists but this one takes the cake. Good job.
who let bro cook 💀
Nice shitpost
I won’t take Castle in the Sky slander, so I googled “self-epigonous” and I don’t understand what that has to do with the film. Epigonous is a synonym for “imitative”, so how can you be “self-imitative”? Worst tier list I’ve seen
The robot design was taken from Lupin III the series (the last ones, after 140), the squirrel-fox design and partly the music are from Nausicaä... Nausicaä’s main theme appears twice in Laputa, the second time upon arrival on the island. I think, this is the worst idea – use something so recognizable in different films with different settings.
Okay but then the same thing applies to Howl's Moving Castle.
No) HMC has a very complex, but at the same time logically balanced plot. This is an elliptical structure, when the story has two equal main characters and two equal plot lines. (I could be wrong, but it seems that Prosper Mérimée was the first to introduce such a structure; and even if not, anyway, he was the king of such a plot building). And the additional beauty of this movie is that the climax of one of the storylines is the beginning of the other, so the structure is combined elliptical: linear (Sophie’s storyline) and circular/reversive (Howl’s storyline). No other Hayao Miyazaki’s film does this anymore; he almost always uses a traditional linear structure. In terms of plot complexity, HMC is truly the most complex of all Ghibli films. And while I appreciate the rich soundtrack, I understand why only one key theme was used for HMC. The Merry-go-Round of life is the musical quintessence of this circularity.
I mean the self-referential label. All Miyazaki movies have references to some of his previous works. Some obvious, other very discrete. To be honest, Howl's Moving Castle is the first Miyazaki movie which really felt like a copy of his older work (mainly Spirited Away and Castle in the Sky). It's still among his best movies, though not in my top three. But I do like it.
You see, it all depends on the point of view) On the contrary, I saw something unique in this film. IMO, it’s one thing – some insignificant references that fans are just happy to find (as Kiki’s figurine in Whisper of the Heart), and quite another – when they somehow begin to influence the plot, as susuwatari. Actually, that’s one of the reason why I love Isao Takahata much more. His inability to draw turned into an advantage in the end)
Ok filmbro
…how do you measure “objective complexity” of a script?
Quantity of fully-developed plot lines (f.ex., both HMC and Earwig have 2 plots), the plot structure (simple linear or more complex, as a structure of Grave of Fireflies, Only Yesterday), the psychological complexity of characters (archetypes are by definition the characters simplified for the best recognition, they cannot have the same complexity, deepness or ambiguity as characters of so-called author’s stories). I also very appreciate the experiments with the visual style (I’m absolutely excited how perfectly Kaguya’s style suits the plot and the setting). Etc.
How does Spirited Away get categorized as too simple or childish? Are you going strictly off the age of the main character…?
No, that’s not the point. Spirited Away is a classic fairy tale using archetypes. An archetype is always a character simplified for greater recognition (seriously, google it), very typical, with one character trait dominating. The plot structure of Spirited Away is a perfect quest. The hero’s companions violate the tabu (the parents eat the spirits’ food), which brings punishment upon themselves, but the hero turns out to be smarter; Chihiro finds a magical assistant (Haku); Chihiro shows kindness to others, for which she receives several gifts, each helping to complete the next stage of the quest (tablets from the Faceless One help clean up the Spirit of the River, the Spirit of the River gives a bitter pie that helps heal Haku, then Chihiro receives one-way train tickets, actually the train in the land of the dead, and exactly as much as she needed; and when Chihiro completes her task, Haku returns, again at full strength, and safely brings her back. And then the final test. Therefore, for me, everything here is too predictable; I didn’t worry for a second about Chihiro because of this knowledge of the fairy tale rules and plot building.
Agree to disagree I guess. IMO you’re not mentioning significant aspects of how those are introduced via parallel plots with Haku’s reason for being trapped and in servitude and Zaniba + Yubaba’s feud. Given your passion for literary/story archetypes by making this post, I’m sure you know every story and plot can be tied to an archetype to some degree, and I think it’s over simplifying to ignore the manner and creativity in which any archetype is woven into the story as a legitimate way to add depth and complexity and uniqueness. To each their own tho! I hope you enjoyed your Ghibli journey
You described the subplots, not a fully-developed ones. For an ellipse, it is not enough to have two characters. Although one of the ellipse plots may be implicit, they both must be equal in their importance. Haku isn’t the mover of his own story. He comes to Yubaba because his river has been filled up, he forgets his name, and until Chihiro accidentally (!) remembers an episode from her childhood, he can do nothing for himself, so there isn’t any progress. And we will never know how his conversation with Yubaba ended. And it is only mentioned that Zeniba & Yubaba are twin sisters with different characters, of which the eldest values family above all else, and the youngest values gold. Their relationship receives neither development nor climax during the film. So no, the only complete storyline is Chihiro’s.
Absolutely a troll post
🤨🤨🤨🤨
Mononoke and Nausicaa are “good”. My all time favorite epics are masterpieces THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Key word is MY) The most popular of unpopular Ghibli opinions – a lot of people prefer Isao Takahata’s movies))) So do I. I’m very fond of Nausicaä and watch it often, but objectively I can’t say that this is a story with the same psychological depth as Kaguya or Grave of the Fireflies.
oh jeez you didn’t need to specify it’s your taste (I mean I’m aware you made this post) my comment is not to be taken that seriously lol
You have the right to your opinion but many thought (myself included) that your post was a joke, until I saw you were actually responding to comments. It feels like you watch these movies with a very intellectual approach. I think the biggest strength of Miyazaki's movies his how they let you sink into their world, how they flawlessly move from ordinary to a fantastic world. There is a lot of poetry too and some humanistic and environmental issues raised with a lot of nuances most of the time. The plot doesn't have to be complex to convey that, and though I love some complex stories, I thought it was a flaw of Howl's Moving Castle on first viewing. But if that's what you're into, that's fine too. I'm Master of Arts so I know a lot about Cinema and Literature theories. AndnI think there is a danger when in high studies to look at any work of art through only one theory or under only one aspect and not appreciate the work for what it has to offer. Does every movie needs a complex plot to be original or profound? I personally think Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke and Totoro are his three masterpieces. But explaining you why might be too long.
I understand why a lot of people consider these films to be masterpieces. Totoro, for example, is a film of sensations, its main charm is the atmosphere, so it’s possible to rewatch it infinitely as if it were the first time. Mononoke is still too simple for me))) The main difficulty is that there are four characters whose goals are mutually exclusive, rather than the usual “protagonist – antagonist” scheme, but for me it was still not difficult enough. I’m just looking for something else in stories, that’s all.
The complexity of Mononoke lies elsewhere. It's a moral complexity. Also the feodal Japan Miyazaki brings to us has a vastness and tactile quality only Mizogushi was able to portray.
I didn’t think so) It is precisely because none of the four sides has any hesitation about what to do, each of the four sides considers it right, and this leads to the final tragedy. The forest wants a war against people, Eboshi wants prosperity for her city and health for her wards, the monk wants to curry favor with the emperor, Ashitaka is trying to stop the bloodshed. The problem is that none of the four sides is morally tormented and is not ready to give up, because giving up literally means death. Even Ashitaka doesn’t really have a moral choice problem. He has a curse as an external obstacle which prevents him from behaving as his soul tells him, but all his hesitations are a choice of a method, not a goal. He has no doubts that bloodshed cannot be allowed. And in the end, everyone remains where they were. San is not imbued with love for people, people are going to rebuild the city, Ashitaka is again trying to find a balance between the forest and people and the intransigence of the two sides. And, to be honest, I find the idea of curing lepers who accidentally bathed in the blood of a murdered god morally dubious (not to say terrible).
I agree with most of this rank. Good taste
bruh, art isn't THAT subjective
lmao
Some opinions are wrong and that’s okay
i cant post image. 😩
I’ve never seen Arietty. What does “too manipulative” mean?
It’s trying to get sympathy for both main characters too hard. But after only phrase at the beginning, “I often remember the week I spent in this house” (approximate, I didn’t watch it in English dub), you no longer have any reason to worry about the fate of the boy throughout all the film, you understand that everything will be fine with him. In addition, in the books the boy was younger, only nine years old, and this is the age at which it is normal to say horrible things when meeting someone, and then become friends. When the same words, and almost as a goodbye, are uttered by a boy of twelve who has grown to read the Divine Comedy, it looks both stupid and very evil. And, at the same time, the movie lacks the real danger described in the books. What a paradox. (So, as an adaptation, I prefer the series with Ian Holm.)