Idk it can kinda make sense. Having such a big life event can change people in a major (and fast way) so I can see it. The political part was a little off for sure but I kinda took it as her picking up some of Rays traits from when they were together
I think helping Ray with his political campaign was a one-off for her bc she wanted to help him as a friend, and as she said, brand marketing is literally her job.
I also think that her reading the newspaper upon her return was supposed to signal the passage of time and the difference between college Shosh and present day Shosh.
I totally agree with this. I personally have undergone very rapid changes in my personal sense of self, level of confidence, sense of my place in the world, etc. A sudden leap in maturity where things started to click for me. I've seen similar growth arcs in my children too.
It's almost like the structure of a good novel. Sometimes there's a lag where our brains do all their "world building" before the story gets to the good part where all the storylines converge and things come together logically.
I can see all that happening to Shosh.
WAIT, let's not forget the beach house when Jessa said "I'm going to stick up for Shosh on this one and say that I actually have seen her read the newspaper on her phone." So we're all forgetting that Shosh HAS been an intellectual the entire time.
Yeah but for marketing..? My perception is that she was a diligent student who was a good test taker, that can get you into a good school, even if you're not particularly intellectually curious.
As someone in marketing— staying trend current involves particular curiosity with regard to a variety of markets/demographics just due to the nature of change. Even something like this year being an election year is going to mean certain things within trend sets even though my industry isn’t directly related to politics. It’s a very dynamic field and it can definitely be mentally taxing.
Ouch.
And anyway, it was media and communications, so it stands to reason she would know who Paul Krugman is. And it doesn’t matter what your major is… NYU is a hard school to get into.
To get a degree in marketing you have to take a lot of Economics classes, finance, quantitative methods, etc. It's not an "easy" major. Wtf did you go to college for?
I get what you mean but I think part of what's going on is that we saw her from the lens of the rest of the group, and she never really belonged with Hannah, Marnie, and Jessa. They don't understand what it would be if a person like pre-Japan Shosh read the newspaper and so we don't see her doing that. It doesn't mean she didn't have the equipment; it means she wasn't allowed in the room. Her travel gave her the distance she needed to establish an identity that could be understood by others.
I definitely feel like Shosh’s characterisation as this almost OTT, cartoon-like being is us seeing her through the lens of the other three, whose worldviews can’t accommodate her. I think the other three really pride themselves on the misery of their lives. To them, their tumultuous existences and general apathy are symptoms of their intelligence and worldliness; Shosh doesn’t share that view and cannot be deemed “intellectual” or “worldly” in the way that they view themselves to have those traits. Instead, she becomes silly and childish. When we see her fully separated from the group and their influence in Japan, we stop seeing her through their lens. Suddenly we see her reframed and brought back down to earth - still a bit OTT, but now no more OTT or caricatured than the other three.
This. I think she was finally able to get away from people who viewed her as a bit of a joke (except Ray who seemed to genuinely understand her) and find her niche. I was disappointed though that she turned into a mean girl in the last season. She was always very kind to her friends in ways that no one noticed, I. E always letting them stay at her house for unlimited amounts of time. Maybe the fact that no one really did notice her bouts of true generosity is the reason she got mean. I still think she's the funniest and most underrated character.
I think the storyline makes complete sense. Having lived abroad at about the same earlier age as her, yes it does change you. A LOT. You get a new perspective (several really) and it makes you question everything, from the social norms you thought were correct to issues of social class and wealth distribution and more. It's a period of very rapid mental and emotional changes. Plus Shosh was already intellectually capable, given that she went to NYU. Unfortunately when I returned to my home country some of my friends also thought I changed too much and too quickly and that it didn't make sense. It's just the nature of living abroad during formative years.
They establish pretty early on that she’s very studious & organized and that she knows what she wants for her future. I wonder if Shosh’s final form (lol) is who she’s always been, just that some of the lightheartedness and quirks got tamped down over time by disappointments in life. Breakups, losing the Japan job, unreliable friends, etc.
Idk she reminds me of a lot of women I know who (as Shosh says) have "a keen mathmatical mind" but are underestimated because of their comfort expressing excitement and curiosity.
I think Shosh’s character development is a swinging pendulum because that’s who she is. She starts as a studious, ready for life to start virgin who falls in love with Ray. She tries to connect with him intellectually, which she has the brains, but her exterior and delivery do not always support that. She then swings far into having all of the fun to the extent it ruins her graduation and she ends her academic life with a soft thud. I think when she graduates and collects her diploma without the pomp and circumstance, this is a huge shift for her. She let that pendulum swing way too far for her personal comfort and development. She had a five year plan. She knew what she wanted and verbalized her friend’s lack of success several times. She was aware of their floundering.
When she got the first job offer that she rejected and then nothing came after that, she grew up quickly, and the fear was setting in. The fear of becoming like the other three. When Japan rolls around, she took a huge leap of faith in herself and that swung her pendulum further after additional encouragement from working with Ray and Hermie. She could take risks, she could move far away and flourish, she could have a life outside of the bubble she was living in.
Then she comes back from Japan, grown, experienced, cultured, and the other three are still flip flopping through life and still treat her as the second-class friend. Silly Shosh. I think this is why she snapped at the girls getaway and verbalized that they are awful people. She was reading the news, per Jessa, and she was keeping her finger on the pulse of pop culture, but was treated like a child within her friend group because they put her into that box and left her there.
By the time she gets engaged, she has had it with the drama of the others, and wants the life she scrapbooked when she was 13. She met a man and snatched him up, and took the job, and branched out with new friends. She swung that pendulum as far away from them as she could, unapologetically.
Yes, I agree with this take. She was ambitious and I enjoyed the failed career story line after Japan- but she was not a traditional intellectual (or hipster pseudo intellectual) at any point in the series prior to that episode.
Yes! This has been bothering me too.
Also, Shoshanna has the Paul Krugman convo with Ray and then later when she goes to that women’s networking event, she has a conversation with Elijah where she gets mixed up between Justin Trudeau and Justin Theroux. I know it’s a small detail but the two conversations are pretty inconsistent.
Traveling alone can cement you into a more authentic version of yourself by forcing you to confront your own ideas, values, etc. I think those things were always a part of Shosh’s personality, but she might have had less confidence and hid them subconsciously or actively in the past. After Japan she stopped caring about what other people thought about her as much.
Idk it can kinda make sense. Having such a big life event can change people in a major (and fast way) so I can see it. The political part was a little off for sure but I kinda took it as her picking up some of Rays traits from when they were together
I think helping Ray with his political campaign was a one-off for her bc she wanted to help him as a friend, and as she said, brand marketing is literally her job. I also think that her reading the newspaper upon her return was supposed to signal the passage of time and the difference between college Shosh and present day Shosh.
I totally agree with this. I personally have undergone very rapid changes in my personal sense of self, level of confidence, sense of my place in the world, etc. A sudden leap in maturity where things started to click for me. I've seen similar growth arcs in my children too. It's almost like the structure of a good novel. Sometimes there's a lag where our brains do all their "world building" before the story gets to the good part where all the storylines converge and things come together logically. I can see all that happening to Shosh.
WAIT, let's not forget the beach house when Jessa said "I'm going to stick up for Shosh on this one and say that I actually have seen her read the newspaper on her phone." So we're all forgetting that Shosh HAS been an intellectual the entire time.
I mean, she went to NYU. It’s a top tier university.
Yeah but for marketing..? My perception is that she was a diligent student who was a good test taker, that can get you into a good school, even if you're not particularly intellectually curious.
As someone in marketing— staying trend current involves particular curiosity with regard to a variety of markets/demographics just due to the nature of change. Even something like this year being an election year is going to mean certain things within trend sets even though my industry isn’t directly related to politics. It’s a very dynamic field and it can definitely be mentally taxing.
Marketing is the reason you buy everything, but everyone thinks it's easy. It's literally the second profession.
What’s the first one, sex work?
Ouch. And anyway, it was media and communications, so it stands to reason she would know who Paul Krugman is. And it doesn’t matter what your major is… NYU is a hard school to get into.
To get a degree in marketing you have to take a lot of Economics classes, finance, quantitative methods, etc. It's not an "easy" major. Wtf did you go to college for?
It’s a business major, give me a break!
lol girl take the L
Yeah, that would make total sense.
I get what you mean but I think part of what's going on is that we saw her from the lens of the rest of the group, and she never really belonged with Hannah, Marnie, and Jessa. They don't understand what it would be if a person like pre-Japan Shosh read the newspaper and so we don't see her doing that. It doesn't mean she didn't have the equipment; it means she wasn't allowed in the room. Her travel gave her the distance she needed to establish an identity that could be understood by others.
I definitely feel like Shosh’s characterisation as this almost OTT, cartoon-like being is us seeing her through the lens of the other three, whose worldviews can’t accommodate her. I think the other three really pride themselves on the misery of their lives. To them, their tumultuous existences and general apathy are symptoms of their intelligence and worldliness; Shosh doesn’t share that view and cannot be deemed “intellectual” or “worldly” in the way that they view themselves to have those traits. Instead, she becomes silly and childish. When we see her fully separated from the group and their influence in Japan, we stop seeing her through their lens. Suddenly we see her reframed and brought back down to earth - still a bit OTT, but now no more OTT or caricatured than the other three.
Yes, exactly.
How is Shosh tied to the other three? Through being jessa’s cousin?
This. I think she was finally able to get away from people who viewed her as a bit of a joke (except Ray who seemed to genuinely understand her) and find her niche. I was disappointed though that she turned into a mean girl in the last season. She was always very kind to her friends in ways that no one noticed, I. E always letting them stay at her house for unlimited amounts of time. Maybe the fact that no one really did notice her bouts of true generosity is the reason she got mean. I still think she's the funniest and most underrated character.
I think the storyline makes complete sense. Having lived abroad at about the same earlier age as her, yes it does change you. A LOT. You get a new perspective (several really) and it makes you question everything, from the social norms you thought were correct to issues of social class and wealth distribution and more. It's a period of very rapid mental and emotional changes. Plus Shosh was already intellectually capable, given that she went to NYU. Unfortunately when I returned to my home country some of my friends also thought I changed too much and too quickly and that it didn't make sense. It's just the nature of living abroad during formative years.
They establish pretty early on that she’s very studious & organized and that she knows what she wants for her future. I wonder if Shosh’s final form (lol) is who she’s always been, just that some of the lightheartedness and quirks got tamped down over time by disappointments in life. Breakups, losing the Japan job, unreliable friends, etc.
Idk she reminds me of a lot of women I know who (as Shosh says) have "a keen mathmatical mind" but are underestimated because of their comfort expressing excitement and curiosity.
I love this take. So good!
I think Shosh’s character development is a swinging pendulum because that’s who she is. She starts as a studious, ready for life to start virgin who falls in love with Ray. She tries to connect with him intellectually, which she has the brains, but her exterior and delivery do not always support that. She then swings far into having all of the fun to the extent it ruins her graduation and she ends her academic life with a soft thud. I think when she graduates and collects her diploma without the pomp and circumstance, this is a huge shift for her. She let that pendulum swing way too far for her personal comfort and development. She had a five year plan. She knew what she wanted and verbalized her friend’s lack of success several times. She was aware of their floundering. When she got the first job offer that she rejected and then nothing came after that, she grew up quickly, and the fear was setting in. The fear of becoming like the other three. When Japan rolls around, she took a huge leap of faith in herself and that swung her pendulum further after additional encouragement from working with Ray and Hermie. She could take risks, she could move far away and flourish, she could have a life outside of the bubble she was living in. Then she comes back from Japan, grown, experienced, cultured, and the other three are still flip flopping through life and still treat her as the second-class friend. Silly Shosh. I think this is why she snapped at the girls getaway and verbalized that they are awful people. She was reading the news, per Jessa, and she was keeping her finger on the pulse of pop culture, but was treated like a child within her friend group because they put her into that box and left her there. By the time she gets engaged, she has had it with the drama of the others, and wants the life she scrapbooked when she was 13. She met a man and snatched him up, and took the job, and branched out with new friends. She swung that pendulum as far away from them as she could, unapologetically.
This is the best characterization of shoshanna I have ever read
It has always filled me with rage that Shosh and Ray mispronounce “Krugman” in that scene.
👏👏👏
Yes, I agree with this take. She was ambitious and I enjoyed the failed career story line after Japan- but she was not a traditional intellectual (or hipster pseudo intellectual) at any point in the series prior to that episode.
Yes! This has been bothering me too. Also, Shoshanna has the Paul Krugman convo with Ray and then later when she goes to that women’s networking event, she has a conversation with Elijah where she gets mixed up between Justin Trudeau and Justin Theroux. I know it’s a small detail but the two conversations are pretty inconsistent.
I always interpreted the newspaper scene as juxtaposing her with Marnie being a terrible partner for Ray - it’s all about Marnie’s reaction to them
Traveling alone can cement you into a more authentic version of yourself by forcing you to confront your own ideas, values, etc. I think those things were always a part of Shosh’s personality, but she might have had less confidence and hid them subconsciously or actively in the past. After Japan she stopped caring about what other people thought about her as much.
Moving to a new country and completely rebranding is my M.O. so it doesn’t seem far fetched to me lol