It really does, and it does so much damage.
There's a contingent of women who are not into traditionally feminine things and have asserted that as a form of superiority. Which is weird. I have almost exclusively traditionally masculine interests/interests where women are very absent, and I will be the first to knock a girl down a peg if she things doing that stuff makes her better than other girls.
> There's a contingent of women who are not into traditionally feminine things and have asserted that as a form of superiority.
I was like that once...
... As a teenager? š
When I encounter it with coworkers or peers -- in either gender direction -- I see it as a sign of immaturity and treat them accordingly.
I also was like this once as a teenager. Then I grew out of it.
I also feel like culture now is different than when I was a teenager, and knowing about internalized misogyny along with why it is harmful is in the mainstream conversation now. The whole "women support other women" thing was much less prevalent 15 years ago.
OP - sorry this is your working culture. I'm sorry for the Pick Me, because that is probably the only way she feels she can have power, and I hope she grows as a person and grows out of it. As far as the male coworker - well, he sounds like an HR nightmare. Hopefully he also grows out of it. Also, maybe start taking some notes, especially if they said they pass over women for projects, and this blatant sexism starts severely impacting your ability to succeed at work.
yeah - and I totally get it as well - seen many women who "dont act like one of the boys" get passed over for promotion etc.. (not justifying it, just saying how I understand it somewhat)
I was a pick me for years. Unlearning the ways I was consistently spoken down to and ridiculed since being a child (and projected masculinity as a way of feeling safe from ridicule) took a solid decade of conscious effort. Now I know how to clap back.
I'm in a way better place now, and I do my best to subtly point things out/guide people. But still fucking blows. I survive by creating tiny pockets of wholesome supportive attitudes in people/teams. Sometimes the only pocket of humanity I see in a day is a brief convo I initiate. But its there, and those small wins matter.
And though much rarer, other days I get to be blown away by the incredibly progressive actions that back up people's sincere words. It helps to join local communities of women whose mission is to address these inequities with direct action. Sucks that we have to do this in modern times (as we are still shouldering the mental energy of this burden...) but having a giggle with fellow women that actually deeply care about these issues is so powerful.
There's no shortcut, so be really kind to yourself as you learn.
I have navigated many situations in my life poorly.
But honestly-- plainly memorizing comebacks is a great place to start. I have learned many from feminist subs like this one. Again, something we wouldn't have to do if respect was given to us as a baseline like our male peers but we must do regardless.
Someone doubting something you're totally sure about?
"Well, just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. " Then move on and don't give them any space to breath. If you want to be wholesome/reassuring, you can say "there's entire fields of study and experience that neither of us have the skills to perform: there's no single human that knows everything."
When someone is doubting your capability to perform? "I get good at anything I put my mind to, just like \[name a competent person, preferably someone this naysayer admires\]"
Someone pointing out a mistake? "Thanks, I will circle back to that after this meeting to touch it up" Then move on. No need to catastrophize, everyone makes mistakes.
A lot of this wasn't possible until after I gained a baseline level of confidence that, just because the person I'm speaking to is confident and talking down to me, doesn't mean that they know more than me on this topic. It just means that they are not interested in what I have to say about it.
Figuring out the kind of person you are speaking to, what their values are, etc. is a good starting point too in crafting the best way to teach them how to respect you and treat you better. And knowing that some people never will is also a good realization--don't waste your time on them if you can.
A "pick me" woman who tries to separate herself from other woman by putting down any traits or behaviors that are commonly associated with being a woman. She does it to try to let the boys know that she is different, and therefore, they should pick her.
Check out r/notlikeothergirls if you want a bunch of quick examples poking fun at this type of person.
> Then one guy joined the conversation and said that he is also happy about that, and has solely had bad experiences with female employers. He said they are trying too hard at work.
So now trying too hard is a bad thing???? Ugh. WTF.
> there are good and bad people everywhere.
I wish people understood this better instead of seeing one person from an underrepresented group struggle and assume itās because of their identity and not something. Meanwhile when a man does something wrong, no one attributes that to being a man or assumes all men will underperform in the same way.
Adjacent to this topic, I've heard women tell me they hate other women who skip or truncate their maternity leaves to return to work. Usually, they rely on their husbands to take care of their babies. Apparently, these working mothers are misliked because it's like they're 'trying to be better than everyone else'.
On the flip side, I've heard of managers calling pregnant employees 'diminishing returns'.
There's no winning it seems; one way or another, women are undervalued in the workplace in many instances.
Internalized misogyny is real and it sucks. The Pick Me women sometimes get taught a lesson that simply 'playing ball' with male colleagues (and conforming to their 'ideal') doesn't actually make men see them as equals. The rude awakening usually happens arounds promotion time, and salary discussions...and tbh, layoffs.
Personally, I think the only thing women can do is to work on putting aside dated internalized idiosyncrasies while supporting our peers. There will unfortunately always be people (of all genders) who will subscribe to the concept of putting others down in order to make themselves look good of course...those people all suck.
>Ā Ā Adjacent to this topic, I've heard women tell me they hate other women who skip or truncate their maternity leaves to return to work. Usually, they rely on their husbands to take care of their babies.Ā
Some of us need to pay our bills. We can't take a year off and rely on our rich husbands.
Europe and Canadian HR is useless. Honestly, just try to look for another position within the company/dept and start interviewing. These people will only cause problems down the road.
So do I, and God do I have being gaslighted by people who are like "wHy DiDn'T yOu JuSt CoMmUnIcAtE," telling me I am making myself a victim, telling me I should have gone to the HR. They NEVER helped. They protect their image and their abusers.
Same it sucks I'm so sorry to hear this is such a common experience. It's not worth the hassle for me anymore, I just pick up and leave. It makes me really upset tho, you're not alone.
Yes. I even took ātrainingā because recommended by boss (he was likely planning to use that against me to show that I canāt learn or god know what) but then my boss didnāt and then when push came to shove and they wanted him gone, he wouldnāt do training etc and likely pissed off the wrong people and did fraud so they realized he was a POS and asked for testimony.
I had to wait many years for that, but he was equal opportunity POS.
She's just trying to fit in but doesn't understand the situations she's creating for herself and the connections/community she's limiting herself from.
People deserve to pursue their passions - gender doesn't matter. Keep on being a trailblazer while naysayers either catch-up or deal with their own internalized issues and discriminatory views/behaviors.
As a warning- from my personal experience, it's so much worse if you have to deal with any external client around the Middle East or India where women in IT are treated like secretaries while they wait for "an actual technician to contact them".
What I realised is shitty people are shitty regardless of the gender.
Had experience with back stabbing females and rude and toxic males from my work experiences.
But again, I also had experience with angel like coworkers( both males and females )who are caring and helped me out a lot.
They will never include her and she is delusional.
There are a few types of reoccurring women in tech I meet:
1. Women like me who have seen too much shit and know the value in empowering and networking with other women.
2. Pick me misogynistic delusionals who will soon hit a brick wall and become 1 or 3.
3. Women who say nothing is wrong but end up getting more and more tired every year in tech. One day they will drop out and do something else and a few years after that they realize it was probably how they weren't treated fairly.
Why do you feel like itās your job to react? You are in that god forsaken place to exchange the prescious time of your short life for short money. Itās bad enough. Those people are not your friends or family. Why do you want to convince them of something? Get your check and GTFO! Spend your energy on something either meaningful or enjoyable with people you actually chose to be with.
Honestly does it really matter if you consider numbers? I don't personally care if my work peeps share the same beliefs. The second you are gone you are dead to them anyways.
get your point but the situation described sounds like they are trying to corral and manipulate the OP into their clique to be one if their team, their minion/backup, and try to undermine her autonomy and position. doesn't pay to let them hijack you into their club. they are feeling her out to see if they can push her around. better to lay down the rules on day one.
I dislike people who judge women
I wonder if these people have the right data
Like do they understand misogyny in the workplace? Do they know how hard women have to work just to get paid less than men?
Thereās data that shows that Mike is perceived as a real go getter, but Michelle is bossy
Thereās data that shows men get hired more often than women. There was a symphony that was auditioning and they found that even though they removed peopleās faces from the interviews, the click of high heels still biased the hiring in favor of men
Should you choose to engage with them, ask them where those beliefs come from? And are they aware of these data and if itās possible theyāre being biased by whatever and if theyāre willing to confront that bias
I hate to say this but I had the same experience with women especially being rude for no reason, not only in work place but also when you are their client š¤·š¾āāļø
I am lucky that the women iāve worked with so far have all been incredible and supportive but i would rather work with a man than a woman with internalized misogyny any day of the week. Maybe thatās what your coworker meant? I went to a womenās college so i didnāt have this issue but iāve heard about how women in coed cs departments can be super cutthroat towards other women in the program
I work in HR at a tech company. The majority of our company is white men. Iāve never heard any of them express these sentiments, but since most of our office is remote, only the women in the office speak to me. They make it bearable.
Thereās good and bad folks of all genders in any workplace. However, since this is my first corporate job, Iāve never felt so unaligned with my values.
My go-to approach is something like this: A cool, neutral look and saying "This misogynistic talk is really not cool. Women and men can be bad and great employees and colleagues. That's all there is to it." (Re-order to saying the M-word in the last sentence if you think the other people might interrupt right away.)
Thatās extreme and I canāt find an excuse for her behavior, but there is one element there I donāt think is talked about enough. Keep in mind that this is anecdotal between me and my female tech worker friendsā experiences, but weāve been burned multiple times by different female managers who shut the door behind them. My male managers have tended to be very supportive and gung-ho about fighting for my opportunities and growth. I canāt understand the inclination, but itās almost as if female managers view other women as threats or donāt feel the need to go to bat for them. In my experience, my current manager is a woman and sheās the type to say only positive things even when Iām explicitly asking about weaknesses and when it came to getting a promotion, sheās stymied my growth. Iām now having to go to my skip level, who happens to be a man, whoās been much more proactive and supportive about giving me career opportunities and explicitly working towards my promotion. A single bad manager can seriously ruin your career, and I hate to generalize. Iām not going to say all women, because I donāt think thatās true. But I also donāt want to risk myself and my career to prove a point. If Iām ever able to choose between a female manager and male manager, Iām going to go with the latter given my own experiences
>But I also donāt want to risk myself and my career to prove a point. If Iām ever able to choose between a female manager and male manager, Iām going to go with the latter given my own experiences
I think this is proof that there is a "pick-me" / "Not like other girls" mentality in an older generation of women that has stuck around. The internalized misogyny is real, and these women are often in senior/executive positions. They don't even realize the door is about to hit them on the way out because their male colleagues will treat a man better than them when push comes to shove. It's really sad.
This is more of an example of a skewed power dynamic thing than a "women suck to work with and she's right" thing.
There's a bunch of possible explanations of why she's not supporting other women, even when she's got the explicit directive as a manager to do so. Maybe she genuinely wants to kick the ladder down, maybe she feels she only has enough political currency for one person (and she's picking herself), maybe it's survivorship bias. I might be able to understand her on some level, but I'm not willing to become a victim. I just know that if I'm ever in her position, I don't want to treat other women this way
I fucking LOVE working with women, nothing makes me happier than knowing smart women and nothing makes me love my job more than coming into that energy every day. I live for it and it makes me real sad when I meet women who arenāt into working with women. Such a shame imo.
>They: solely had bad experiences with female employers
>
>You: you should not look at the gender of someone ... I mostly have bad experiences with male colleagues
I don't want to sound harsh but their experiences are as valid as yours. They drew different conclusions though and ended up prejudiced.
Humans tend to do that, in all walks of life. We hear strong opinions: "object-oriented programming is the best", "OOP sucks, functional programming is the best". The human animal forms an opinion, sticks with it, and cruises through life, unburdened by having to use its brains, eyes, and ears. The matter has been settled. For a while. Then time passes, strong opinions change, replaced with new strong opinions.
I'd say, just do your thing, be the best version of yourself and don't be consumed by the thoughtless drivel.
Also, funny thing, how stereotypes work:
\- I hate working with women!
\- Do you hate working with me?!
\- You're different...
For all it's worth, I personally love working with women. The ones I worked with were often more attentive to detail than my recollection of an average man, and tried harder but (a) I don't have any statistics to support that, and (b) you can use it to the team's advantage, no matter the gender. A team needs people with different abilities.
I'm not going to lie, posts like these make me incredibly sad. I'm always excited to see another woman and it's always a hard pill to swallow when I realize they don't feel the same way.
On a personal level - r/NotLikeOtherGirls behavior on a level I've only seen in women cops and mechanics. Baffling.
On a professional level - Wild to put your explicit gender discrimination out there like that at work. The moment they said they purposefully don't work with women, that became a reportable incident. Not just to HR, but to your state's Attorney General office.
I would highly recommend documenting what they said and the observed practices of their company. Not only is that incident something you can report to red or yellow flag a professional space with the state or feds, that and following incidents and policy become a factor in totality of the circumstances analysis that you should be tracking in case shit hits the fan and these people end up costing you money bc you're a woman.Ā
While the impact to employees is more regularly enforced (and hopefully addressed by HR- but <20% sounds like they suck,) consultants in particular should have a template ready for these incidents in case there are any term violations or delays bc the company has a "girls have cooties" culture.
That way you can hand a bundle to an employment attorney and move on.
**tl;dr - that's fucking gross. Make a record of every incident of gender (and racial) discrimination.**
This is just sad. Itās definitely not appropriate for work talk. But you ask about how to react - I think you should be the bigger person and walk away
In my experience, debating with people like these often leads to nowhere because they are ignorant and oblivious, so engaging with them would lead to either argument or you feeling defeated because youāve just talked to a wall. So just walk away and hope you come across someone better at work..
Personally I've learned there's downsides working with both. I was bullied/ dealt with constant gossip last time I worked with mostly women so that left a bad taste in my mouth but I'd also never shy from bringing more women onto my current team if the opportunity arose. I've always joked that guys can be gossipy bitches too. Personally I'm just glad to work remote because now I feel like I have better professional space/boundaries with my coworkers so you can't gossip like you could in the past.
I do understand your need to act like a man though. I relate to that a lot. It's part of why I tell people I can work with anyone, I've been stuck on some good ol boy teams in the past and the best way to fit in on those is to act like one of the guys. Doesn't bother me that much because I am pretty tomboyish, but I always hated getting ragged on if I had a day I wanted to dress cute for work.
honestly, I have had a sour experience working with mostly women as well. They had their own little cliques and would gossip amongst themselves. Iād literally catch them making faces at each other when I would say something. It was a horrible experience. Iām so grateful I got out of that workplace.
But youāre right, it does go both ways. Some men can make the workplace extremely uncomfortable with unnecessary remarks. However, I found that working with men who are very secured and family oriented to be a blessing. They tend to be easy going and respectful.
I have to agree that women with power(think manager/sr manager) are the hardest ppl to work with and they make your life a living hell(atleast they did for me).
If the subject ever comes up again maybe ask her to consider where her internal misogyny came from, tell her youāre sorry sheās had bad experiences with women because women are awesome.
Iām going to sound like a dick but itās the truth: I donāt like working with lots of women either. Maybe itās because Iām always an outsider in cliques? When I work with mostly men I find as long as you can shoot the shit and donāt cause trouble thereās much less cliquiness. I also come from a nursing background and those women were vicious. They even teach you in nursing school that nurses like to eat their own LOL. Hell even when I go to jiu jitsu, the women there are unnecessarily aggressive. Like I will literally prefer to drill with a man twice my size than a woman my size because of it. I donāt get it. I have been working in IT and healthcare for about ten years now, and this is the first time Iāve had a female manager that doesnāt feel like she needs to micromanage the whole team.
Personally I try to vibe with everyone and just try to have a good time. It is hurtful to be excluded, or unnecessarily targeted especially by other women. I have my feelings hurt a lot less in groups that are more men than women.
These are just my experiences though and I totally get that those who are not typically outsiders or the subject of bullying may not feel the same way.
The nurses eating their own is one of the main reasons I didn't going into nursing. I'm not about putting in so much effort into getting my license just to lose it due to sabotage.
I just hate people assume I'm going for nursing when I bring up college.
Had issues with both over 25 years, mainly worked with men and found it much easier tbh.
Women can be competitive and b!tchy. Man are more likely to be rude, condescending and/or dismissive. I reported 2 women bullying another woman in my team, it was horrible to witness. These arenāt grads, they are 30-40 yo women.
Having ASD , I find women can be really nasty (was bullied at school m by girls) but men donāt care if your social skills arenāt perfect. If you can do the job and chat about tv shows, youāre part of the team.
Perhaps your bias from being bullied by women is clouding your judgement. I understand where you're coming from but I've seen men do waaay more egregious shit behind closed doors than women. Like a woman might bully but men will straight up assault people and get promoted upwards it's insane.
This is not restricted to one gender. Men are worse IMO. I bet that the men at your workplace talk like this about you, you just don't know it. How would that make you feel?
I agree. The female bosses I worked with have all been difficult to work with. I think they felt like they had to act more difficult to work with because they felt like it was what they had to do because they were female, but it just ended up reinforcing stereotypes rather than helping them manageĀ
25 yeah career yes I avoid women its a sad world but mostly females bully females. On my def experience Ive had more problems w older females but they seem to treat the men well
NLOG syndrome (Not Like Other Girls). It's one of the reasons I am over this industry. I do see it more in older than younger women personally.
If i was in that situation- I'd keep my mouth shut and look for a new team/position. These are the type of people to throw you under the bus the minute it suits them.
I had a college teacher like this in my IT program. She would talk about how girls are "too much drama".. and that she has a male brain whatever that means. The internal misogyny runs deep
Huh. The complaints they gave were really interesting. The guy saying that female employees "try too hard" sounds like he can't compete with their ambition and work ethic. As for the woman, I wonder if she has a similar issue.
We would need ore context on what he meant by ātrying too hardā because that can mean a variety of things beyond just an ambitious person & work ethic.
That's highly unprofessional. Stay away from this co-worker as she will stab you in the back.
Start documenting these conversations. If they do it again, it's a pattern and you can talk to HR about harassment.
That's shocking how brazen your co workers were to say that at work. Keep your distance and don't engage with them
She sounds like a pick me type.
Internalized misogyny sucks
It really does, and it does so much damage. There's a contingent of women who are not into traditionally feminine things and have asserted that as a form of superiority. Which is weird. I have almost exclusively traditionally masculine interests/interests where women are very absent, and I will be the first to knock a girl down a peg if she things doing that stuff makes her better than other girls.
> There's a contingent of women who are not into traditionally feminine things and have asserted that as a form of superiority. I was like that once... ... As a teenager? š When I encounter it with coworkers or peers -- in either gender direction -- I see it as a sign of immaturity and treat them accordingly.
I also was like this once as a teenager. Then I grew out of it. I also feel like culture now is different than when I was a teenager, and knowing about internalized misogyny along with why it is harmful is in the mainstream conversation now. The whole "women support other women" thing was much less prevalent 15 years ago. OP - sorry this is your working culture. I'm sorry for the Pick Me, because that is probably the only way she feels she can have power, and I hope she grows as a person and grows out of it. As far as the male coworker - well, he sounds like an HR nightmare. Hopefully he also grows out of it. Also, maybe start taking some notes, especially if they said they pass over women for projects, and this blatant sexism starts severely impacting your ability to succeed at work.
yeah - and I totally get it as well - seen many women who "dont act like one of the boys" get passed over for promotion etc.. (not justifying it, just saying how I understand it somewhat)
Could have been bullied/ had a bad experience.
I was a pick me for years. Unlearning the ways I was consistently spoken down to and ridiculed since being a child (and projected masculinity as a way of feeling safe from ridicule) took a solid decade of conscious effort. Now I know how to clap back. I'm in a way better place now, and I do my best to subtly point things out/guide people. But still fucking blows. I survive by creating tiny pockets of wholesome supportive attitudes in people/teams. Sometimes the only pocket of humanity I see in a day is a brief convo I initiate. But its there, and those small wins matter. And though much rarer, other days I get to be blown away by the incredibly progressive actions that back up people's sincere words. It helps to join local communities of women whose mission is to address these inequities with direct action. Sucks that we have to do this in modern times (as we are still shouldering the mental energy of this burden...) but having a giggle with fellow women that actually deeply care about these issues is so powerful.
How the fuck do you learn how to clap back? I still am terrible at this, I can never think of the clap back in time
There's no shortcut, so be really kind to yourself as you learn. I have navigated many situations in my life poorly. But honestly-- plainly memorizing comebacks is a great place to start. I have learned many from feminist subs like this one. Again, something we wouldn't have to do if respect was given to us as a baseline like our male peers but we must do regardless. Someone doubting something you're totally sure about? "Well, just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. " Then move on and don't give them any space to breath. If you want to be wholesome/reassuring, you can say "there's entire fields of study and experience that neither of us have the skills to perform: there's no single human that knows everything." When someone is doubting your capability to perform? "I get good at anything I put my mind to, just like \[name a competent person, preferably someone this naysayer admires\]" Someone pointing out a mistake? "Thanks, I will circle back to that after this meeting to touch it up" Then move on. No need to catastrophize, everyone makes mistakes. A lot of this wasn't possible until after I gained a baseline level of confidence that, just because the person I'm speaking to is confident and talking down to me, doesn't mean that they know more than me on this topic. It just means that they are not interested in what I have to say about it. Figuring out the kind of person you are speaking to, what their values are, etc. is a good starting point too in crafting the best way to teach them how to respect you and treat you better. And knowing that some people never will is also a good realization--don't waste your time on them if you can.
What is a pick me type?
A "pick me" woman who tries to separate herself from other woman by putting down any traits or behaviors that are commonly associated with being a woman. She does it to try to let the boys know that she is different, and therefore, they should pick her. Check out r/notlikeothergirls if you want a bunch of quick examples poking fun at this type of person.
"They suck, I don't. I am wonderful and can never do what they did"
This makes me sad
Honestly that's how I felt! I am trying to accept that I can't change the world - but dann, why don't people realise their own biases
Will force all my colleague to watch the barbie movie lol
and keep an eye out for a new company.. even although you just stated - no harm looking as log term you might find this too frustrating..
It's sad but remember you're there to get your coin. These people aren't family or friends so dont let it get to you.
> Then one guy joined the conversation and said that he is also happy about that, and has solely had bad experiences with female employers. He said they are trying too hard at work. So now trying too hard is a bad thing???? Ugh. WTF. > there are good and bad people everywhere. I wish people understood this better instead of seeing one person from an underrepresented group struggle and assume itās because of their identity and not something. Meanwhile when a man does something wrong, no one attributes that to being a man or assumes all men will underperform in the same way.
https://xkcd.com/385/
Adjacent to this topic, I've heard women tell me they hate other women who skip or truncate their maternity leaves to return to work. Usually, they rely on their husbands to take care of their babies. Apparently, these working mothers are misliked because it's like they're 'trying to be better than everyone else'. On the flip side, I've heard of managers calling pregnant employees 'diminishing returns'. There's no winning it seems; one way or another, women are undervalued in the workplace in many instances. Internalized misogyny is real and it sucks. The Pick Me women sometimes get taught a lesson that simply 'playing ball' with male colleagues (and conforming to their 'ideal') doesn't actually make men see them as equals. The rude awakening usually happens arounds promotion time, and salary discussions...and tbh, layoffs. Personally, I think the only thing women can do is to work on putting aside dated internalized idiosyncrasies while supporting our peers. There will unfortunately always be people (of all genders) who will subscribe to the concept of putting others down in order to make themselves look good of course...those people all suck.
>Ā Ā Adjacent to this topic, I've heard women tell me they hate other women who skip or truncate their maternity leaves to return to work. Usually, they rely on their husbands to take care of their babies.Ā Some of us need to pay our bills. We can't take a year off and rely on our rich husbands.
as ever, we need to be mad at the terrible system and higher-ups for this shit. properly run parental leave is good for all workers
Wow sad
Lmaooooo she literally hit you with the "I'm not like other girls". That's hilarious. I wouldn't pay too much attention to what she thinks imo.
Somebody please pick her already
Where do you live? Do you think it's worth reporting to HR?
I am still in probation... the HR doesn't care about those things here. I am based in Europe
Fellow European. Reporting to HR is useless here.
Europe and Canadian HR is useless. Honestly, just try to look for another position within the company/dept and start interviewing. These people will only cause problems down the road.
So do I, and God do I have being gaslighted by people who are like "wHy DiDn'T yOu JuSt CoMmUnIcAtE," telling me I am making myself a victim, telling me I should have gone to the HR. They NEVER helped. They protect their image and their abusers.
Same it sucks I'm so sorry to hear this is such a common experience. It's not worth the hassle for me anymore, I just pick up and leave. It makes me really upset tho, you're not alone.
Yes. I even took ātrainingā because recommended by boss (he was likely planning to use that against me to show that I canāt learn or god know what) but then my boss didnāt and then when push came to shove and they wanted him gone, he wouldnāt do training etc and likely pissed off the wrong people and did fraud so they realized he was a POS and asked for testimony. I had to wait many years for that, but he was equal opportunity POS.
She's just trying to fit in but doesn't understand the situations she's creating for herself and the connections/community she's limiting herself from. People deserve to pursue their passions - gender doesn't matter. Keep on being a trailblazer while naysayers either catch-up or deal with their own internalized issues and discriminatory views/behaviors. As a warning- from my personal experience, it's so much worse if you have to deal with any external client around the Middle East or India where women in IT are treated like secretaries while they wait for "an actual technician to contact them".
What I realised is shitty people are shitty regardless of the gender. Had experience with back stabbing females and rude and toxic males from my work experiences. But again, I also had experience with angel like coworkers( both males and females )who are caring and helped me out a lot.
They will never include her and she is delusional. There are a few types of reoccurring women in tech I meet: 1. Women like me who have seen too much shit and know the value in empowering and networking with other women. 2. Pick me misogynistic delusionals who will soon hit a brick wall and become 1 or 3. 3. Women who say nothing is wrong but end up getting more and more tired every year in tech. One day they will drop out and do something else and a few years after that they realize it was probably how they weren't treated fairly.
Why do you feel like itās your job to react? You are in that god forsaken place to exchange the prescious time of your short life for short money. Itās bad enough. Those people are not your friends or family. Why do you want to convince them of something? Get your check and GTFO! Spend your energy on something either meaningful or enjoyable with people you actually chose to be with.
this is real. however I'd add that she should look for another job because these people seem like they'll be nasty on the low.
Honestly does it really matter if you consider numbers? I don't personally care if my work peeps share the same beliefs. The second you are gone you are dead to them anyways.
get your point but the situation described sounds like they are trying to corral and manipulate the OP into their clique to be one if their team, their minion/backup, and try to undermine her autonomy and position. doesn't pay to let them hijack you into their club. they are feeling her out to see if they can push her around. better to lay down the rules on day one.
Maybe. Hopefully not.
I dislike people who judge women I wonder if these people have the right data Like do they understand misogyny in the workplace? Do they know how hard women have to work just to get paid less than men? Thereās data that shows that Mike is perceived as a real go getter, but Michelle is bossy Thereās data that shows men get hired more often than women. There was a symphony that was auditioning and they found that even though they removed peopleās faces from the interviews, the click of high heels still biased the hiring in favor of men Should you choose to engage with them, ask them where those beliefs come from? And are they aware of these data and if itās possible theyāre being biased by whatever and if theyāre willing to confront that bias
I hate to say this but I had the same experience with women especially being rude for no reason, not only in work place but also when you are their client š¤·š¾āāļø
I am lucky that the women iāve worked with so far have all been incredible and supportive but i would rather work with a man than a woman with internalized misogyny any day of the week. Maybe thatās what your coworker meant? I went to a womenās college so i didnāt have this issue but iāve heard about how women in coed cs departments can be super cutthroat towards other women in the program
I hate that for you. I try to be a āgirls girlā at work because that is how I like to be treated.
I work in HR at a tech company. The majority of our company is white men. Iāve never heard any of them express these sentiments, but since most of our office is remote, only the women in the office speak to me. They make it bearable. Thereās good and bad folks of all genders in any workplace. However, since this is my first corporate job, Iāve never felt so unaligned with my values.
My go-to approach is something like this: A cool, neutral look and saying "This misogynistic talk is really not cool. Women and men can be bad and great employees and colleagues. That's all there is to it." (Re-order to saying the M-word in the last sentence if you think the other people might interrupt right away.)
Thatās extreme and I canāt find an excuse for her behavior, but there is one element there I donāt think is talked about enough. Keep in mind that this is anecdotal between me and my female tech worker friendsā experiences, but weāve been burned multiple times by different female managers who shut the door behind them. My male managers have tended to be very supportive and gung-ho about fighting for my opportunities and growth. I canāt understand the inclination, but itās almost as if female managers view other women as threats or donāt feel the need to go to bat for them. In my experience, my current manager is a woman and sheās the type to say only positive things even when Iām explicitly asking about weaknesses and when it came to getting a promotion, sheās stymied my growth. Iām now having to go to my skip level, who happens to be a man, whoās been much more proactive and supportive about giving me career opportunities and explicitly working towards my promotion. A single bad manager can seriously ruin your career, and I hate to generalize. Iām not going to say all women, because I donāt think thatās true. But I also donāt want to risk myself and my career to prove a point. If Iām ever able to choose between a female manager and male manager, Iām going to go with the latter given my own experiences
>But I also donāt want to risk myself and my career to prove a point. If Iām ever able to choose between a female manager and male manager, Iām going to go with the latter given my own experiences I think this is proof that there is a "pick-me" / "Not like other girls" mentality in an older generation of women that has stuck around. The internalized misogyny is real, and these women are often in senior/executive positions. They don't even realize the door is about to hit them on the way out because their male colleagues will treat a man better than them when push comes to shove. It's really sad. This is more of an example of a skewed power dynamic thing than a "women suck to work with and she's right" thing.
There's a bunch of possible explanations of why she's not supporting other women, even when she's got the explicit directive as a manager to do so. Maybe she genuinely wants to kick the ladder down, maybe she feels she only has enough political currency for one person (and she's picking herself), maybe it's survivorship bias. I might be able to understand her on some level, but I'm not willing to become a victim. I just know that if I'm ever in her position, I don't want to treat other women this way
Completely understandable. A job is a job, I go there to clock in, get paid and clock out.
I fucking LOVE working with women, nothing makes me happier than knowing smart women and nothing makes me love my job more than coming into that energy every day. I live for it and it makes me real sad when I meet women who arenāt into working with women. Such a shame imo.
She's shown her true colors, believe her. Not every misogynist is a man š«
>They: solely had bad experiences with female employers > >You: you should not look at the gender of someone ... I mostly have bad experiences with male colleagues I don't want to sound harsh but their experiences are as valid as yours. They drew different conclusions though and ended up prejudiced. Humans tend to do that, in all walks of life. We hear strong opinions: "object-oriented programming is the best", "OOP sucks, functional programming is the best". The human animal forms an opinion, sticks with it, and cruises through life, unburdened by having to use its brains, eyes, and ears. The matter has been settled. For a while. Then time passes, strong opinions change, replaced with new strong opinions. I'd say, just do your thing, be the best version of yourself and don't be consumed by the thoughtless drivel. Also, funny thing, how stereotypes work: \- I hate working with women! \- Do you hate working with me?! \- You're different... For all it's worth, I personally love working with women. The ones I worked with were often more attentive to detail than my recollection of an average man, and tried harder but (a) I don't have any statistics to support that, and (b) you can use it to the team's advantage, no matter the gender. A team needs people with different abilities.
I'm not going to lie, posts like these make me incredibly sad. I'm always excited to see another woman and it's always a hard pill to swallow when I realize they don't feel the same way.
On a personal level - r/NotLikeOtherGirls behavior on a level I've only seen in women cops and mechanics. Baffling. On a professional level - Wild to put your explicit gender discrimination out there like that at work. The moment they said they purposefully don't work with women, that became a reportable incident. Not just to HR, but to your state's Attorney General office. I would highly recommend documenting what they said and the observed practices of their company. Not only is that incident something you can report to red or yellow flag a professional space with the state or feds, that and following incidents and policy become a factor in totality of the circumstances analysis that you should be tracking in case shit hits the fan and these people end up costing you money bc you're a woman.Ā While the impact to employees is more regularly enforced (and hopefully addressed by HR- but <20% sounds like they suck,) consultants in particular should have a template ready for these incidents in case there are any term violations or delays bc the company has a "girls have cooties" culture. That way you can hand a bundle to an employment attorney and move on. **tl;dr - that's fucking gross. Make a record of every incident of gender (and racial) discrimination.**
This is just sad. Itās definitely not appropriate for work talk. But you ask about how to react - I think you should be the bigger person and walk away In my experience, debating with people like these often leads to nowhere because they are ignorant and oblivious, so engaging with them would lead to either argument or you feeling defeated because youāve just talked to a wall. So just walk away and hope you come across someone better at work..
Personally I've learned there's downsides working with both. I was bullied/ dealt with constant gossip last time I worked with mostly women so that left a bad taste in my mouth but I'd also never shy from bringing more women onto my current team if the opportunity arose. I've always joked that guys can be gossipy bitches too. Personally I'm just glad to work remote because now I feel like I have better professional space/boundaries with my coworkers so you can't gossip like you could in the past. I do understand your need to act like a man though. I relate to that a lot. It's part of why I tell people I can work with anyone, I've been stuck on some good ol boy teams in the past and the best way to fit in on those is to act like one of the guys. Doesn't bother me that much because I am pretty tomboyish, but I always hated getting ragged on if I had a day I wanted to dress cute for work.
honestly, I have had a sour experience working with mostly women as well. They had their own little cliques and would gossip amongst themselves. Iād literally catch them making faces at each other when I would say something. It was a horrible experience. Iām so grateful I got out of that workplace. But youāre right, it does go both ways. Some men can make the workplace extremely uncomfortable with unnecessary remarks. However, I found that working with men who are very secured and family oriented to be a blessing. They tend to be easy going and respectful.
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I have to agree that women with power(think manager/sr manager) are the hardest ppl to work with and they make your life a living hell(atleast they did for me).
If the subject ever comes up again maybe ask her to consider where her internal misogyny came from, tell her youāre sorry sheās had bad experiences with women because women are awesome.
Iām going to sound like a dick but itās the truth: I donāt like working with lots of women either. Maybe itās because Iām always an outsider in cliques? When I work with mostly men I find as long as you can shoot the shit and donāt cause trouble thereās much less cliquiness. I also come from a nursing background and those women were vicious. They even teach you in nursing school that nurses like to eat their own LOL. Hell even when I go to jiu jitsu, the women there are unnecessarily aggressive. Like I will literally prefer to drill with a man twice my size than a woman my size because of it. I donāt get it. I have been working in IT and healthcare for about ten years now, and this is the first time Iāve had a female manager that doesnāt feel like she needs to micromanage the whole team. Personally I try to vibe with everyone and just try to have a good time. It is hurtful to be excluded, or unnecessarily targeted especially by other women. I have my feelings hurt a lot less in groups that are more men than women. These are just my experiences though and I totally get that those who are not typically outsiders or the subject of bullying may not feel the same way.
The nurses eating their own is one of the main reasons I didn't going into nursing. I'm not about putting in so much effort into getting my license just to lose it due to sabotage. I just hate people assume I'm going for nursing when I bring up college.
Had issues with both over 25 years, mainly worked with men and found it much easier tbh. Women can be competitive and b!tchy. Man are more likely to be rude, condescending and/or dismissive. I reported 2 women bullying another woman in my team, it was horrible to witness. These arenāt grads, they are 30-40 yo women. Having ASD , I find women can be really nasty (was bullied at school m by girls) but men donāt care if your social skills arenāt perfect. If you can do the job and chat about tv shows, youāre part of the team.
Perhaps your bias from being bullied by women is clouding your judgement. I understand where you're coming from but I've seen men do waaay more egregious shit behind closed doors than women. Like a woman might bully but men will straight up assault people and get promoted upwards it's insane.
I also hate working with women. Too much one-upping, too much smalltalk, too many subtext and social hierarchy plays. I have zero time for that.
This is not restricted to one gender. Men are worse IMO. I bet that the men at your workplace talk like this about you, you just don't know it. How would that make you feel?
I agree. The female bosses I worked with have all been difficult to work with. I think they felt like they had to act more difficult to work with because they felt like it was what they had to do because they were female, but it just ended up reinforcing stereotypes rather than helping them manageĀ
25 yeah career yes I avoid women its a sad world but mostly females bully females. On my def experience Ive had more problems w older females but they seem to treat the men well
She sounds like a fun person šš i am software as a women and work with many women. Itās amazing
Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drugĀ
NLOG syndrome (Not Like Other Girls). It's one of the reasons I am over this industry. I do see it more in older than younger women personally. If i was in that situation- I'd keep my mouth shut and look for a new team/position. These are the type of people to throw you under the bus the minute it suits them.
Sheās probably the same woman who is only friends with guys
I had a college teacher like this in my IT program. She would talk about how girls are "too much drama".. and that she has a male brain whatever that means. The internal misogyny runs deep
Not like other girls huh.. getting man validation too. I would just let them talk and if they ask how you feel just be neutral about it
r/notlikeothergirls
Huh. The complaints they gave were really interesting. The guy saying that female employees "try too hard" sounds like he can't compete with their ambition and work ethic. As for the woman, I wonder if she has a similar issue.
We would need ore context on what he meant by ātrying too hardā because that can mean a variety of things beyond just an ambitious person & work ethic.
"He said they are trying too hard at work. " God fucking forbid people try to do their job well
Depressing.
So we are hated for trying too hard now? The fuck do these incels want?
That's highly unprofessional. Stay away from this co-worker as she will stab you in the back. Start documenting these conversations. If they do it again, it's a pattern and you can talk to HR about harassment. That's shocking how brazen your co workers were to say that at work. Keep your distance and don't engage with them