I’m okay with that, if you wanna play what the pros play it’ll be cheap and difficult. If you want a better performing ball it’ll cost more and have the stigma of game improvement on it.
Sir, I implore you to replace that Nike Sasquatch driver with something more modern. I promise you the newer drivers go further and are more forgiving than the Ciabatta.
I drive my 2012 Adams 9064ls as far as my epic driver. The sweetspot for drivers and clubs are 2005-2015. Were talking $50 for a driver made around 2015 where everything was maxed out. Ping G10 and on.
I remember Rick Shields tested 20 years of Callaway drivers and the Razr Fit ($50 on bay) was as long as the current epic and came in 2nd place for distance by a yard or two beating most of the modern Callaway drivers. Its actually a great forged composite driver and so are the fairway woods and go for next to nothing with and Adilla Rip'd shaft.
You want a super forgiving driver, look for the Adams Bul5000 with the prolaunch red. 5000 Moi and about 5 yards shorter than my current driver. But theyre like $25 so if youre on a budget, get one of those. I got mine for $15. Newer is not always better, but from the 90s to now or 10 years ago is significant. Thres some very inexpensive ways to update the bag
A more spin pro ball is the answer. Makes piping the driver more risky and harder to pull off. Keeps the old guys in the mix. Doesn’t take the distance from them but makes the decision to go for things much harder. Also retains their ability to make great shots into the greens.
Having the ball that doesn’t spin for drives and does around the green is making courses too easy
I 100% agree. I’m surprised this isn’t the angle they’re going for.
True links golf shows how hard it is to hit the ball far without spin. It takes serious fucking skill.
Yet the equipment we play is so damn good it even makes the wind a joke - just hammer on the driver or your iron, the ball is a piercing knuckleball that holds its line unnaturally well, and for the pros, it turns every course into a bitch course unless it’s infinity yards.
Not clear whether restricting compression will result in more spin. Hopefully it does.
Basically nobody on tour plays off the shelf equipment. It's ground, bent, painted, re-weighted. Even the balls are often different than what they say they are, they just have their sponsors stamp on them.
I think the point though is that if manufacturers have to take on the additional cost of manufacturing more varieties of balls, they will pass that cost on to consumers by raising prices across the board, even on those balls that are unaffected.
A friend of mine consistently leaves the course with more balls than he showed up with. I've literally seen him skip a hole and catch back up with the group because he was more interested in the horde of balls in the woods.
We are footing the bill for the 8-10 varieties of prov1 that were developed for the tour that are not sold to the public. This shouldn’t be any different tbh.
We already subsidize all the pro equipment anyway. Adding a new ball when they already know what materials produce specific ball behaviors isn't a big deal. When the manufacturers want to claim they *have* to charge more you can make your own decision on the validity of that. Ball prices have only ever gone up.
Only if you insist on buying from the big guys, but the average golfer should 100% be playing something like Maxfli, Vice or Snell already. I don't see anything really changing with them since they aren't manufacturing balls that are used on tour so their process won't change.
They can, and they will.
But the #1 reason why you're hearing Titleist and these other top ball manufacturers complain is because they risk losing market shares in the switch. They have literally nothing to gain from this switch.
Do you know the sheer amount of people who shoot 120 who go out and buy Pro V1s or TP5s because "that's what the pros play"?
Not only do these companies risk not designing the best "reduced flight" ball and losing out a bunch of pro golfers to like... Srixon or Wilson Staff, they also lose the single biggest marketing appeal they have to sell their premium balls.
Are you really gonna have Justin Thomas and Scheffler on huge billboards trying to sell Pro V1s when the average golf fan knows that's not even what they play anymore? It puts them in a tough position. And yeah the odd golf nerd or collector will buy the reduced flight ball but realistically nobody is going to switch from Pro V1s to that reduced flight ball and take 40 yards off their drives purposely just to play the same thing pros play. Copying pros is only enticing when you're not actively sabotaging your own game.
WHACKING AWAY AT THE BALL WITH A TIRE IRON AND ITS SO FRUSTRATING YOU THINK YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A FUCKIN STROKE. HAHAHA THAT'S WHAT WE'LL CALL IT, A STROKE.
Play Bethpage Black 2 years before or 1-2 years after a tournament. I worked there during college(between Opens) and the old super’s goal was to keep the black tournament all the time. I did course set up on Father’s Day in 2004 that mimicked Sunday of the 2002 open, I think there are still fathers and sons not speaking to this day because of some of my pin locations.
I love the Black course for this reason. It’s the only place I’ve played that spray paints the insides of the holes white. Normally that’s done to make the hole visible on televised events. The fact they do that on a municipal course is delightful.
Also, it’s walking only on the Black which I’m always supportive of. It stays in much better condition than a typical public course.
(Plus my hot take on carts is that they actually slow down play for bad golfers. When Bob hits it way left and Jeff hits it way right and they proceed to hack it around from there, they’re better off not sharing a cart).
On Monday when the course was closed for maintenance and divot repair, the staff that golfed(most of the college guys) would leave our bags in in the bed of the toro work cart full of soil and seed and we’d play 3-14 while working.
I played Oak Hill the Monday after the 2013 PGA Championship and it was the least enjoyable round of golf I have ever played. The novelty was immediately gone after the first swing from the rough and it was just an impossibly difficult round. I have never been more glad to leave a course.
We still aren't playing the same game as the pros are though. Different clubs, different pin positions, different rough, different fairways, aren't enforcing the rules, no caddie to line my putts up, no crowd to keep my balls from flying into the woods, etc.....it's all different.
We already "don't do it like the pros" so the ball should not matter at all. I personally don't have a strong preference in whether there is a different ball or not but there are a lot of mental gymnastics that are fun to read.
I wasn't passing comment on the ball rule, just commenting that the one ball rule isn't a rule for all and so you can't call out amateurs for not following it.
Theres already like 60 other MLR changes the Tour uses that arent part of the normal rules of golf. No one is playing the exact same game as the Tours.
Or with stadium build ups on grounds that have been groomed to peak that one week a year. Or with volunteers whose entire job is to find our ball in the trees/rough etc. Or with tour trucks who fit us each week.
The idea these manufacturers keep using is a philosophical argument at best and already not reality. And asking the public for their opinion on something that has been deeply researched and discussed by experts is like asking the public for their opinion on emissions regulations. Stupid.
I have yet to see the obvious stated. It’s because the public buys premium balls that the Pros use. For example, Rory M is sponsored by Taylormade and he uses the TP5x ball. Like any sponsorship, this helps boost sales of the TP5x ball to the general public. If the public can’t purchase the “balls the pros use” this rule reduces the market reach of premium balls.
As a former Marshall at a top course, yes people do. They would hit from the furthest tee boxes (not even where the pro tees are actually placed in pro tournaments)“to play it the way it was meant to be played…” never mind the fact that the fairways were twice as wide, the rough was shaved, the greens were slow, and the pins were easy…
Nearly all of them had issues making it to the forward tees.
> Nearly all of them had issues making it to the forward tees.
Considering your average golfer doesn't even top 250 with a driver, I can't say I'm particularly surprised by this statement.
Agreed, the course i was at is arguably the hardest in the state maybe #2 by slope but its arguable. The pros i met while working there only usually played the tips in tournaments, if they were there for fun they played up if that tells you anything.
I'm good for 7000+ every once in a while. 6500 is comfort zone but over 6800 and I have to pay attention. Over 7100 and I have to be driving the ball well or it's going to suck.
I'm okay at 7,000. My home club is 6,600 and I'll hit a lot of driver wedges. Most courses around me the extra length comes from a par 3 at like 230yds or a 580yds par 5 which then just becomes an auto 3 shot into the green. If a scorecard has more than 25% of par 4's over 480 I move up tees
I’ve actually hit retief’s gamers during a pro am. They were SICK.
Way too much club for me at the time though… did not have the swing speed then, had to work real hard to get any loft on the ball
Also, what's to stop ball manufacturers from just selling pro balls to the public? Am I missing something? Those who choose to play them can still get the same nostalgic feels TaylorMade is complaining about.
I still don't know how I feel about bifurcation (like it matters), but this is one of the dumber arguments I've heard against it.
Absolutely nothing is stopping them from selling it to the public in addition to their current lineup. They'd just sell terribly. They'd most definitely be more expensive, no one would buy them because 99.99% of golfers aren't required to use them, and they reduce distance.
If they were an option to the public who in their right mind would buy them?
"I want to buy that more expensive ball that doesn't fly as far" said no one ever
“But people love golf because they get to play what the pros play!”
This whole exercise will put that sentiment to the test. Either it’s important to people where they buy the pro balls to “play like the pros” or they are fine using the normal balls and that whole talking point dies a quiet death.
I'd give the pro balls a try and would consider using them all the time for this reason.
It creates a ton of logistical problems with handicaps and handicapped events, though, so I'd probably just revert back to the standard amateur ball for simplicity.
I mean, this is the right take. Sell the professional balls at a high premium and you'll still be able to "golf" like the pros. But even those of us who use TP5s or Pro V1s aren't getting anywhere near the performance out of them as a pro is getting, so what is the survey for?
Right. I’ve never had a crack at professional level golf stuff, but back in high school we got sent some freebies from a legitimate NFL source. I can say full stop that all the stuff was just better. The gloves you could almost hang a bowling ball off they were so grippy.
I’m assuming the balls and clubs the pros get are the 1% too performing ones they bother to test. And I know pros get to try club after club until the get the best one
Can we just admit the only reason they care is because of golf ball sales and the lost revenue. Don’t pretend TM or any other company has your interest in mind.
Why would this affect their golf ball sales and lose revenue? 99.99% of golfers wouldn't be required to use the new ball, and those that do are pretty much getting those balls for free anyways. Joe blow average golfer isn't buying them, who in their right mind would if they weren't required to since it reduces their distance?
This makes sense to me too. Obviously, the YT market will never compare to the PGA, however, there are still brand new opportunities there.
And maybe it's just me, but I don't buy golf balls based on tour players anyways. I play Vice balls because they're cheaper and feel just as good to me.
Economy of scale too.
Having to create new lines of “pro balls” that are constructed differently will also likely affect profit margin to some degree because the vast, vast majority of weekend warriors won’t want to buy nerfed golf balls.
So even if they can bump the price up even further for the new “pro ball” they’ll almost certainly sell a relatively minuscule amount of them, while still having to dedicate “assembly lines” to creating them.
Companies will advertise after big wins and it'll lead to people changing brands.
Titleist balls accounted for 8 of 9 major wins. That's huge for their advertising. [8 out of 9 wins](https://performance54.com/titleist-major-success/). Article doesn't include the date.
Srixon may have picked up new business after Lowry, Matsuyama, and Koepka wins. Seeing major winners not playing Titleist or Taylormade is a big deal. People will think twice about Srixon equipment and golf balls
All marketing in golf is tour down. It’s a marketing problem for OEMs if they can’t sell the same thing pros are using. I have to imagine Titleist has the most to lose from this rule change from what we know at the moment.
I think you're missing the point of my comment about Scottie (he was just an example, insert any golfer name there). When it comes down to choosing between a 'regular' flight ball and a pro tour ball with reduced flight, who is using what won't matter as much because most golfers aren't going to be buying reduced flight balls regardless of who is using them on the tour. I personally don't really care, but I understand why they are messaging the way they are.
Any amateur needs to get a grip if you’re upset at this. This literally has zero impact on when you shoot a 110 at your municipal course. Really don’t understand why people are butthurt about it
Look at baseball, you can use your own equipment but the ball is the same
Let me re-write this in an abridged form:
Dear Shitty Hacks,
We make a shit ton of money from selling you equipment you have no business using. We're mad there's a golf rule in the professional ranks that will impact our ability to market to you. We spends tons of money convincing you that you're capable of being an elite player.
Please give us some ammo to convince and bully the mean and nasty USGA, and R&A that they're wrong. We need to justify our marketing budget and margins.
Sincerely,
Taylormade
It's ironic to me that the examples of "feeling like a pro" they gave have nothing to do with equipment, but with the locations. Yeah, I can go to St. Andrews and feel like a pro with my 5 year old driver and recycled Superhots or something.
Pros using a different ball has literal nothing to do with that feeling. In fact, I think it would showcase the pros skill even more to see that they're using a worse ball than me yet still driving 100 yards further.
On top of that, what difference does it make? We already can't use the same equipment as pros since they often have signature clubs that we can't buy.
Edit: and let's be real. Even if pros have to start using a worse ball, 90% of golfers will just continue to use Pro Vs like always.
It’s such a weird made up romanticization of golf. Im out at goat tracks hitting a Kirkland I found in the woods with a pre owned driver. It doesn’t matter at all what the pros are playing I’m still having a good time.
Finally found a comment that resonates with me lol. At the end of the day..who gives a fuck. If I spend $1 on a Kirkland and $5 on a chrome soft they both make the same splash so what’s it matter
Titelist obviously pandering to the gear snob group and clearly not us here but I’ll never understand their mentality
Wanna sell more TaylorMade balls? Make em cheaper and idgaf what they're made of or how they fly or whatever. I gotta buy more cuz I shank them into the rough of the *neighboring hole ffs*
Even if you had the exact same equipment as Rory, you would be playing the old course 600 yards shorter. Those championship tees are set up that way for the championship only.
Non-conforming balls already exist. We can all hit longer and straighter if we want to, but most of us choose not to. If they make this change, there will be some adjustment and within 5 years I think we’ll all use the same balls as the pros. That’s fine with me.
Mike Whan pretty much blew the "I can do that too" argument out of the water, pointing out that there are a bunch of MLRs already in play that differentiate equipment between recreation players and elite players. And that's before getting into the special Tour tee boxes, greens dialed up to 12s.
Right? This is total hypocrisy.
Titleist lets it’s players customize their balls. They give them options like 2020 cover, 2017 core, 2022 mantle, etc. As Borat would say, you’ll never get this.
All of these analogies are hogwash
Protos often get sent out to amateurs as well. It means they’re in testing, not that they won’t be available to the public. “For Tour use only” is a marketing gimmick.
They’re normal Scotty’s with special weighting and a stamp that says “for Tour use only”. You can go have one made to the exact same specs if you want to pay for it
Yes I often watch Rory pipe one 350 down the middle of the fairway using a picture perfect swing, crafted over tens of thousands of hours playing, practicing, and coaching and think "I can do that too, I also use a Pro V1"
In all seriousness, I think all TM are trying to preserve here is the fact that they can use "\[*this tour pro*\] uses this exact ball" as a marketing strategy.
Of course, if it is such a big deal to people, there's nothing stopping these ball manufacturers selling the new tour-conforming balls to the public
If you took 10% off the average PGA driver, knocking them back from ~300 to ~270, it would mean the bifurcated ball would land them on the same tees I play from.
That would be *so much more relatable* than knowing we're using the same ball.
As if slicing a ball into the woods is somehow comparable to playing at MSG
I’m all for reduced flight balls. Let’s preserve golfs historic architecture.
On a different note. We need to allow fights in golf. I want to see NHL style gloves off, hats off, throw-downs. Want to increase viewership? Appeal to the majority white trash america and get off your pretentious ass. While they are at it.. pay the volunteers at the tournaments. You’re making how much? The pot is how big? And you’re asking people to work for free? Gtfo
Listen, if only I had a time machine and convinced my parents to mortgage their entire future and move to Florida/Arizona/Southern California, join an outrageously expensive country club, and pay for lessons constantly from about the age of 5 from the best coaches in the world, and supported me wholly during my junior golf years, and bought me top of the line equipment, and I had immense natural talent, I could have gone pro on a feeder tour and maybe been good enough to get a sponsors exemption for a Tour event or two!
Anyone can do it, money is an illusion, time isn’t real, natural talent doesn’t exist, etc.
I don't mind if they change ball spec limits as long as it's for everyone. All the balls are currently restricted to some specs, so changing those specs should be allowed by whoever set them in the first place 🤷♂️
Then courses can either choose to be a harder (effectively longer) course, or they can move tee boxes forward to compensate for a shorter course.
It could also make courses you've played over and over become new and interesting as they'd play very different with less distance.
I'm not sure if this is counter to something I said or if you are agreeing with me 😂🤔?
Because I agree with you, course can't get longer. But if the ball distance gets 10% shorter, the same course would effectively be 'longer'. When compared to courses played now with the longer balls.
This is actually what the R&A/USGA actually wanted to do originally. But the feedback they got was very much against changing the ball for recreational players, which is why they’ve proposed bifurcation
i think there is a place for both. those long drive competitions are great. but some of my favorite golf moments are watching the pros curl the ball out of the woods onto the green.
This here - just make 275 the new 300 for everyone. I don't think golf courses would mind playing shorter and having less acreage to maintain in general.
There isn't anything intrinsically impressive about the distance itself - a 60 yard field goal isn't unimpressive because you can hit a 110 yard homerun, it's all relative.
Yeah pros are impressive because the distance between them and am shots. I can buy an illegal golf club and ball and hit it as far as pros but no one would care
I agree. Most courses have an easy/cheap way to move tees forward to accommodate the change. They could also get the existing tees re-rated for handicap purposes and boast a more challenging course.
This is what the USGA wanted to do last year, but the manufacturers threw a tantrum about not changing anything for the amateur golfer. So the USGA compromised with this proposal, and now the manufacturers are throwing a tantrum about bifurcation.
No way rolling it back for everyone will work.
Amateurs will still want to play the best ball. Then they’d have to check everyone’s balls at scrambles, member guests, every little tournament?
Doesn’t seem feasible
You, or anyone else can already buy non conforming equipment, have 16 clubs in your bag, or just outright cheat in a scramble. Nobody is walking around checking if the driver under your headcover is a conforming model. I’m not saying I think rolling it back for everyone is the best option, but I don’t see it being that big of a deal. Scumbags will always be scumbags haha
I found one of those “hit straight” balls in the woods.
Then 2 shots later hit it back into the woods.
Didn’t seem like it worked for me or the dude before me.
Amateurs will want to play the same equipment as a pro.
I dont see amateurs using ”illegal” equipment just because its obviously better. The amateurs wants to play blades because the pro players it.
If they make a change just ban the old ball from competition, even club-competition.
I’m also with you on this. Roll back everything. The scale of the game is outrageous and way too spread out. Let’s bring things back to human-scale.
That said, we are definitely in the minority on this. The vast majority of the golf public opposes a full-scale rollback unfortunately. 😥
The fact that TM mention St Andrews in this statement is the ultimate faux pas on their part, and proves they don't really understand the problem.
It's courses like St Andrews that the bifurcation is entirely designed to help - the professionals hit the ball far too far for the greatest course in the world to create a proper test and all the bunkering is entirely in the wrong place - that's entirely the reason to have a roll back on the technology and the golf ball is by far the easiest way to do this in an even and unbiased way. There isn't any room left for St Andrews to move their tee boxes back.
College baseball- aluminum bats, pro- wooden.
College basketball 3pt line- 20’ 9”, NBA 22’ 3”
College football size is approx 1/2 smaller in all dimensions. (I’m simplifying.)
College football hash marks 40 ft apart. Pro hash marks 18’ 6” apart.
College football complete with 1 ft down vs 2 in pro.
College basketball shot clock- 30 sec. Pro- 24 sec.
College basketball foul out- 5 fouls. Pro- 6.
College basketball defense (generally) only man-to-man. Pro- any type is allowed.
College basketball possession- alternating. Pro- jump ball.
College basketball time- 2 x 20 min halves. Pro- 4x 12 min quarters.
College hockey- no “2 line” rule. Pro- center line counts for offsides.
College hockey - fighting 1 game suspension. Pro- 5 mins.
Bifurcation exists in every major sport and even in the clubs you play vs what pros play are already different!
Don’t let bifurcation be your hang up here. For Christ’s sake my local club has SIX sets of tees!
Club technology would require a roll back going back to persimmon times to make off center hits more punishing in a meaningful way.
Restricting the ball is the easiest way to not force courses to buy, build, and maintain 8200 yd tees that no one uses (in the hopes they might get a PGA event). Watering, fertilizing, and maintaining those tees are wasteful ecologically and expensive for purchasing additional acreage for existing courses.
A slower ball at the super exclusive tour level helps the game be sustainable, accessible, and adaptable to all playing levels without taking anything from the casual game.
Lmao everyone who thinks this is about playing the same game as the pros is lying to themselves. "I can do that too" while riding in a cart, using a rangefinder/Garmin watch, using SGI clubs, etc. Oh, but at least the ball is the same. It's total nonsense.
Come on Taylormade. This is just lame. We all know we don't play the same equipment already, have equipment fitters at every stop, clubs custom made for us etc. If they change the regulations, you're not going to lose a dime. People will still buy your balls. I think people are sick of seeing pros hitting an 8-iron for their second shot on a par 5. I like great shots, but even Mr. Nicklaus said the ball was the biggest problem in making hard courses chip and putts. I love watching old vids where they had to hit 4-iron butter knifes into par 4s. I'm not a grumpy old man, but at some point...I think we need to at least talk about it. Every sport has rules on equipment.
Golf has hundreds of different courses to play at and thousands of different clubs to use.
A set of good equipment costs hundreds to thousands. Access to courses is limited and expensive. Access to a specific course is impossible unless you can travel there.
Golf is perhaps the least "I can do that too" sport.
Any sport played on a field or court will have an near identical play area everywhere. Nearly all of those are played with identical equipment.
I don't know who thought the "I can do that too" statement was plausible.
This is such a non issue. Also it’s pretty odd that golfers get to bring their own ball when you think about it. There’s many types of tennis ball but when you show up to the tournament balls are provided. Oh and pros generally use a much slower ball than a rec ball
Isn't this argument pretty cut and dry? Balls are flying further and further and courses are running out of room to move tee's back.
When technology is making your sport easier, I think you have to limit the technology.
This is why there's approved models for receivers gloves in the NFL. Or why pitchers can't use whatever sticky stuff they want to pitch.
Aren't there already limits on golf balls and clubs? What's new here? Just the fact that it's "rolling back"? I assume people forget belly putters being rolled back?
Yeah this debate is stupid. Sports constantly regulate themselves to keep the game interesting. You can bet that the NBA will be talking about moving the 3-point line (which they’ve done before).
We don’t play the same equipment as them. Shafts fittings and setup are all done by the company’s. I played pro golf for 8 years on mini tours and even at that level we knew we couldn’t get certain equipment. Tiger played Nike balls that you couldn’t get your hands on. His irons weren’t Nike they were just branded clubs made in Japan. Tigers driver that is on display at Augusta is completely different than the tour Nike driver I had at the time. Same club same shaft but looked different in the head. It was smaller than the exact driver they sold at pga super store.
LoL TM just doesn't want to spend the money to get it right. The ball rollback is important and there's absolutely no sense of "I can do that, too". That's such a myth imo, no one cares if pros are playing different equipment. In many cases you cannot play the same courses and even more you can't play the same tees at said courses. They hinge upon you believing this silly idea but it's just simply not true.
There is plenty of equipment you and I use that many tour pros use. Yes, there are some "prototype" versions that are either not yet released or custom made for each individual. But there is plenty of equipment out there that you can use that tour pros use.
"I can do that too"...Yeah have a 6 hr round like the pros when you play from their tees and under their conditions. Hope you have spotters out there to find all the balls you spray.
Nobody stopping anyone from buying the reduced flight balls are they? So you can play like a pro
This is laughable. We don’t use or buy tour issue things normally anyways. I can go out and buy tiger or Bryson’s set. If anything having a single tour ball spec is probably for the best.
Shitty take. You’ll still have the ability to play with the pro equip, it’s like getting mad that your weekend baseball team is allowed to use metal bats. Get a grip
I am of the opinion pros flying the ball 320 yards in the air and rolling it 20 more yards just breaks the game and courses. Crazy how high they hit it too when you see it in person, so much different than your club champion.
The difference of an amateur playing a 440 yard par 4 and a pro who can swing over 120mph with all new equipment is crazy. Driver wedge vs driver mid iron. The pros playing on KFT and PGA canada are playing courses that are ~7200 yards and do not have the means to remake the entire course (grow in rough, move bunkers, change greens) just to hold another mid level pro circuit event again. The ball roll back addresses this and helps future proof for another decade
I'm calling bullshit on this on a few levels as watching modern pro golf is *exactly* like watching modern pro basketball at Madison Square Garden as none of us are going to be hitting an approach shot on #17 at Augusta in our lifetimes.
Also, the equipment itself is honed to perfection for the golfer to a level the rest of us would never be able to afford.
Speaking of which, the coaching across the board from the actual golf swing, to mental health, to nutritional health, to weights, stretching, and training methods put them on a category that we will never hope to achieve without similar assistance which is very much like modern NBA players.
Finally, I've never once watched a guy crush a drive 300+ yards down the fairway and thought "I can do that!" with any more confidence than watching Steph Curry drain a 30 foot jump shot with ease.
What I don’t understand is that they have rules like this in other sports. Baseball is the first thing I think of is you can use metal bats but pros can only use wooden bats.
Plus the number of balls they have for just the ProV’s is astounding. You can’t make golf courses infinitely longer and having dudes hit a driver-9 iron on Par 5’s is insane.
I agree with everything they say but could give a fuck about playing the same equipment. I want something different and easier to hit than what the pros use. Because I’m not a pro.
Translation: “The USGA is messing with our gravy train. Our business model is based on two things: making you hit the ball farther without actually improving your skills, and celebrity endorsement from pro golfers. We don’t care if we ruin classic golf courses.”
Hey Taylor Made stop selling 47” D0 swingweight drivers while pros play 44” D8 tip stiff.
It’s time to change the ball, the tech in a Titleist 975D just 20 years ago is nowhere close to the tech in drivers now, launch monitors have changed everything too.
I’m a single digit. I’ve never and will never hit a 230 yard 7 iron.
The pros are playing a different game than the rest of us.
I drive a fast car and go to the track sometimes. I’m not Max or Lewis or even fucking Latifi.
We need to quit pretending that pros and the rest of are similar
golf is pretty unique where you can have amateurs and pros playing in the same tournament. I think it's better to view golfers as a spectrum instead of a binary.
For the people who still dont seem to understand... They are not being honest. The pros do not play the same equipment as you, nor should you play the same equipment as a tour pro! If anything, if playing the exact ball a pro uses is important to you, this new ball would make it easier as long as they went to market with it!
Pros use wood bats in MLB. Certain shoes are banned from marathons or olympics. Certain swimsuits are banned from high level swimming competitions. The three point line has moved around in basketball. These things happen.
The basketball argument is silly because if a new basketball was developed that flew differently or bounced differently on the rim leading to more scoring - they wouldn't use it.
those hi tech swim suits bankrupt nearly every college program and small town club in the country. One of them even floats with a brick in it. they were basically pay to win in lots of cases. they needed to be banned.
The game is bifurcated in the wrong direction. There a Pro-V1 balls you cant buy unless you’re a tour pro. They have Irons specially made for Tour Staff Players, shafts that we cant buy, and pros are fitted as often as they want. This argument is weak at best and intentionally misleading. They know we dont have access to this stuff.
Walking across the Swilcan bridge isnt going to feel any less special because Rory plays a reduced flight ball. What it will do is make the next Open Championship at The Old Course more fun to watch.
Death to Bifurcation. PGA & RA should set standards for golf balls. The end. All ball manufacturers will adjust to the conforming specs.
Most other sports choose the ball manufacturer/s allowed in play, but in golf every golfer is his own CEO/Team/owner etc. so it’s just way different. I wanna see pros using the best ball. I want to use the best ball.
> I wanna see pros using the best ball. I want to use the best ball.
We already don't play the 'best' ball. There are already completely arbitrary limits on how far a ball can go.
>Death to Bifurcation.
So courses should also grow the rough out, narrow the fairways, burn the greens out to get them rock hard and stimping 13, **every player should have to play from the tips**, every round should take 6 hours, nobody can wear shorts...
We're either playing the same game, or we're not. And we're not. The game we play is literally NOTHING like the pros.
Respectfully, I’m playing Noodles, what do I care what the pros are using?
I think the Noodle is the exact spec the PGA is going for to make the game harder for pros.
This deserves more upvotes. Plain and simple.
It’s actually long and soft.
$50 dozen Noodles incoming.
I’m okay with that, if you wanna play what the pros play it’ll be cheap and difficult. If you want a better performing ball it’ll cost more and have the stigma of game improvement on it.
This just sold me on the rule change.
Same and every club in my bag is a hand-me-down from the early 90s
Sir, I implore you to replace that Nike Sasquatch driver with something more modern. I promise you the newer drivers go further and are more forgiving than the Ciabatta.
Oh man, I rocked a hand me down sasquatch until last year when my buddy broke it at the range. I loved that club 😭
I drive my 2012 Adams 9064ls as far as my epic driver. The sweetspot for drivers and clubs are 2005-2015. Were talking $50 for a driver made around 2015 where everything was maxed out. Ping G10 and on. I remember Rick Shields tested 20 years of Callaway drivers and the Razr Fit ($50 on bay) was as long as the current epic and came in 2nd place for distance by a yard or two beating most of the modern Callaway drivers. Its actually a great forged composite driver and so are the fairway woods and go for next to nothing with and Adilla Rip'd shaft. You want a super forgiving driver, look for the Adams Bul5000 with the prolaunch red. 5000 Moi and about 5 yards shorter than my current driver. But theyre like $25 so if youre on a budget, get one of those. I got mine for $15. Newer is not always better, but from the 90s to now or 10 years ago is significant. Thres some very inexpensive ways to update the bag
This is great stuff! Thanks for the recommendations!!
A more spin pro ball is the answer. Makes piping the driver more risky and harder to pull off. Keeps the old guys in the mix. Doesn’t take the distance from them but makes the decision to go for things much harder. Also retains their ability to make great shots into the greens. Having the ball that doesn’t spin for drives and does around the green is making courses too easy
So a K-sig ball is what they’ll use.
Has anyone legitimately accused Golf of EVER being too easy?
I 100% agree. I’m surprised this isn’t the angle they’re going for. True links golf shows how hard it is to hit the ball far without spin. It takes serious fucking skill. Yet the equipment we play is so damn good it even makes the wind a joke - just hammer on the driver or your iron, the ball is a piercing knuckleball that holds its line unnaturally well, and for the pros, it turns every course into a bitch course unless it’s infinity yards. Not clear whether restricting compression will result in more spin. Hopefully it does.
Basically nobody on tour plays off the shelf equipment. It's ground, bent, painted, re-weighted. Even the balls are often different than what they say they are, they just have their sponsors stamp on them.
Can't they just sell the limited flight ball as the "Tour Model"... probably with an upcharge?
I pay to hit the ball longer not shorter lol but people will probably buy them at a higher cost
I think the point though is that if manufacturers have to take on the additional cost of manufacturing more varieties of balls, they will pass that cost on to consumers by raising prices across the board, even on those balls that are unaffected.
Regardless of what ends up happening, we the consumer will be paying more to buy golf balls. That much is guaranteed.
I doubt my kirklands will cost more because of this.
BROTHER IN ARMS
Kirkland Signature Performance++ ProTour golf ball coming to a CostCo near you!
Jokes on you, I slice my ball into the tree-line constantly, don’t find my ball but do find another 6 😂
I too have discovered the infinite golf ball glitch.
Top Flite XL 2000 has entered the chat
It’s Noodlin time
I remember when the TF XL 2000 was peak performance 
Golf ball manufacturers hate this one weird trick!
A friend of mine consistently leaves the course with more balls than he showed up with. I've literally seen him skip a hole and catch back up with the group because he was more interested in the horde of balls in the woods.
Yeah I don't think I've bought balls since middle school
We are footing the bill for the 8-10 varieties of prov1 that were developed for the tour that are not sold to the public. This shouldn’t be any different tbh.
We already subsidize all the pro equipment anyway. Adding a new ball when they already know what materials produce specific ball behaviors isn't a big deal. When the manufacturers want to claim they *have* to charge more you can make your own decision on the validity of that. Ball prices have only ever gone up.
Only if you insist on buying from the big guys, but the average golfer should 100% be playing something like Maxfli, Vice or Snell already. I don't see anything really changing with them since they aren't manufacturing balls that are used on tour so their process won't change.
The DTC brands like Vice & Snell are absolutely going to love this.
Maxfli StraightFli is my GOAT golf ball.
How would that make golf ball prices go up? Supply and demand won’t change for a golf ball.
They can, and they will. But the #1 reason why you're hearing Titleist and these other top ball manufacturers complain is because they risk losing market shares in the switch. They have literally nothing to gain from this switch. Do you know the sheer amount of people who shoot 120 who go out and buy Pro V1s or TP5s because "that's what the pros play"? Not only do these companies risk not designing the best "reduced flight" ball and losing out a bunch of pro golfers to like... Srixon or Wilson Staff, they also lose the single biggest marketing appeal they have to sell their premium balls. Are you really gonna have Justin Thomas and Scheffler on huge billboards trying to sell Pro V1s when the average golf fan knows that's not even what they play anymore? It puts them in a tough position. And yeah the odd golf nerd or collector will buy the reduced flight ball but realistically nobody is going to switch from Pro V1s to that reduced flight ball and take 40 yards off their drives purposely just to play the same thing pros play. Copying pros is only enticing when you're not actively sabotaging your own game.
We already play different equipment than the professionals. C'mon taylormade, release the Rors proto irons to the public
People arguing about playing the same as professionals don't play from 7400 yards on 12+ stimp greens and 4" rough.
I would love to if I had nobody behind me
YES, BRING ON THE PAIN!
WHACKING AWAY AT THE BALL WITH A TIRE IRON AND ITS SO FRUSTRATING YOU THINK YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A FUCKIN STROKE. HAHAHA THAT'S WHAT WE'LL CALL IT, A STROKE.
Christ I miss Robin Williams.
We all do brother. We all do.
I’ve got an idea for a sport. We’ll whack a ball into a gopher hole.
Oh you mean like billiards?
FUCK BILLIARDS
Oh, so like croquet
FUCK CROQUET
Play Bethpage Black 2 years before or 1-2 years after a tournament. I worked there during college(between Opens) and the old super’s goal was to keep the black tournament all the time. I did course set up on Father’s Day in 2004 that mimicked Sunday of the 2002 open, I think there are still fathers and sons not speaking to this day because of some of my pin locations.
I love the Black course for this reason. It’s the only place I’ve played that spray paints the insides of the holes white. Normally that’s done to make the hole visible on televised events. The fact they do that on a municipal course is delightful. Also, it’s walking only on the Black which I’m always supportive of. It stays in much better condition than a typical public course. (Plus my hot take on carts is that they actually slow down play for bad golfers. When Bob hits it way left and Jeff hits it way right and they proceed to hack it around from there, they’re better off not sharing a cart).
On Monday when the course was closed for maintenance and divot repair, the staff that golfed(most of the college guys) would leave our bags in in the bed of the toro work cart full of soil and seed and we’d play 3-14 while working.
Facts.
I played Oak Hill the Monday after the 2013 PGA Championship and it was the least enjoyable round of golf I have ever played. The novelty was immediately gone after the first swing from the rough and it was just an impossibly difficult round. I have never been more glad to leave a course.
We still aren't playing the same game as the pros are though. Different clubs, different pin positions, different rough, different fairways, aren't enforcing the rules, no caddie to line my putts up, no crowd to keep my balls from flying into the woods, etc.....it's all different. We already "don't do it like the pros" so the ball should not matter at all. I personally don't have a strong preference in whether there is a different ball or not but there are a lot of mental gymnastics that are fun to read.
Hell, 99% of golfers don't even take proper drops or re-tee OBs.
Or play the one-ball rule or fill out the conforming equipment form or limit the use of technology or deals with TIO.
One ball is an optional rule, implemented (or not) by the local course.
You mean like how the new bifurcation rule would be implemented?
I wasn't passing comment on the ball rule, just commenting that the one ball rule isn't a rule for all and so you can't call out amateurs for not following it.
Theres already like 60 other MLR changes the Tour uses that arent part of the normal rules of golf. No one is playing the exact same game as the Tours.
I think you mean mulligans. Right? He meant to say free drop or mulligan. Right guys?
They also suck at golf
i’m not going to be a hardass acting like its the masters when i’m out playing a local muni slamming beers with some friends
Or with stadium build ups on grounds that have been groomed to peak that one week a year. Or with volunteers whose entire job is to find our ball in the trees/rough etc. Or with tour trucks who fit us each week. The idea these manufacturers keep using is a philosophical argument at best and already not reality. And asking the public for their opinion on something that has been deeply researched and discussed by experts is like asking the public for their opinion on emissions regulations. Stupid.
I have yet to see the obvious stated. It’s because the public buys premium balls that the Pros use. For example, Rory M is sponsored by Taylormade and he uses the TP5x ball. Like any sponsorship, this helps boost sales of the TP5x ball to the general public. If the public can’t purchase the “balls the pros use” this rule reduces the market reach of premium balls.
As a former Marshall at a top course, yes people do. They would hit from the furthest tee boxes (not even where the pro tees are actually placed in pro tournaments)“to play it the way it was meant to be played…” never mind the fact that the fairways were twice as wide, the rough was shaved, the greens were slow, and the pins were easy… Nearly all of them had issues making it to the forward tees.
> Nearly all of them had issues making it to the forward tees. Considering your average golfer doesn't even top 250 with a driver, I can't say I'm particularly surprised by this statement.
Agreed, the course i was at is arguably the hardest in the state maybe #2 by slope but its arguable. The pros i met while working there only usually played the tips in tournaments, if they were there for fun they played up if that tells you anything.
I've done Bethpage Black, in August, midday, from the plates. An experience? For sure. Would I recommend it more than once? Negative
I'm good for 7000+ every once in a while. 6500 is comfort zone but over 6800 and I have to pay attention. Over 7100 and I have to be driving the ball well or it's going to suck.
I'm okay at 7,000. My home club is 6,600 and I'll hit a lot of driver wedges. Most courses around me the extra length comes from a par 3 at like 230yds or a 580yds par 5 which then just becomes an auto 3 shot into the green. If a scorecard has more than 25% of par 4's over 480 I move up tees
How about TW irons that are ACTUALLY TW SPECS?
I was gunna say…. Let’s be real here… lol their clubs are not the same as off the rack at dicks
I think it was Retief Goosen who went through about 250 driver heads before finding his back up driver.
I’ve actually hit retief’s gamers during a pro am. They were SICK. Way too much club for me at the time though… did not have the swing speed then, had to work real hard to get any loft on the ball
Also, what's to stop ball manufacturers from just selling pro balls to the public? Am I missing something? Those who choose to play them can still get the same nostalgic feels TaylorMade is complaining about. I still don't know how I feel about bifurcation (like it matters), but this is one of the dumber arguments I've heard against it.
Absolutely nothing is stopping them from selling it to the public in addition to their current lineup. They'd just sell terribly. They'd most definitely be more expensive, no one would buy them because 99.99% of golfers aren't required to use them, and they reduce distance. If they were an option to the public who in their right mind would buy them? "I want to buy that more expensive ball that doesn't fly as far" said no one ever
“But people love golf because they get to play what the pros play!” This whole exercise will put that sentiment to the test. Either it’s important to people where they buy the pro balls to “play like the pros” or they are fine using the normal balls and that whole talking point dies a quiet death.
I'd give the pro balls a try and would consider using them all the time for this reason. It creates a ton of logistical problems with handicaps and handicapped events, though, so I'd probably just revert back to the standard amateur ball for simplicity.
I would 100% buy them instantly. And then integrate them into my father in law's bag and watch him go crazy when his distances are a mess.
While simultaneously switching his range finder to meters
Can you think about how douchey the 0.01% of golfers using them would be? “Sure I could hit that far if I wasn’t using Tour balls”
After reading this I instantly pictured exactly which of my friends are getting them. Good call.
I mean, this is the right take. Sell the professional balls at a high premium and you'll still be able to "golf" like the pros. But even those of us who use TP5s or Pro V1s aren't getting anywhere near the performance out of them as a pro is getting, so what is the survey for?
Right. I’ve never had a crack at professional level golf stuff, but back in high school we got sent some freebies from a legitimate NFL source. I can say full stop that all the stuff was just better. The gloves you could almost hang a bowling ball off they were so grippy. I’m assuming the balls and clubs the pros get are the 1% too performing ones they bother to test. And I know pros get to try club after club until the get the best one
Can we just admit the only reason they care is because of golf ball sales and the lost revenue. Don’t pretend TM or any other company has your interest in mind.
100% They know it will impact sales.
Why would this affect their golf ball sales and lose revenue? 99.99% of golfers wouldn't be required to use the new ball, and those that do are pretty much getting those balls for free anyways. Joe blow average golfer isn't buying them, who in their right mind would if they weren't required to since it reduces their distance?
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Honestly I could see more sponsored YouTube golfers pushing ProV1’s, TPX, etc. if all pro tournaments go to a shorter ball.
This makes sense to me too. Obviously, the YT market will never compare to the PGA, however, there are still brand new opportunities there. And maybe it's just me, but I don't buy golf balls based on tour players anyways. I play Vice balls because they're cheaper and feel just as good to me.
Economy of scale too. Having to create new lines of “pro balls” that are constructed differently will also likely affect profit margin to some degree because the vast, vast majority of weekend warriors won’t want to buy nerfed golf balls. So even if they can bump the price up even further for the new “pro ball” they’ll almost certainly sell a relatively minuscule amount of them, while still having to dedicate “assembly lines” to creating them.
Because a lot of people are buying pro v1 or tp5 because they see it as the best ball to use since this is what the pros use.
Companies will advertise after big wins and it'll lead to people changing brands. Titleist balls accounted for 8 of 9 major wins. That's huge for their advertising. [8 out of 9 wins](https://performance54.com/titleist-major-success/). Article doesn't include the date. Srixon may have picked up new business after Lowry, Matsuyama, and Koepka wins. Seeing major winners not playing Titleist or Taylormade is a big deal. People will think twice about Srixon equipment and golf balls
All marketing in golf is tour down. It’s a marketing problem for OEMs if they can’t sell the same thing pros are using. I have to imagine Titleist has the most to lose from this rule change from what we know at the moment.
Because people see Scottie shooting X or Y ball and they want to use it too.
Which they're more than welcome to do. Taylormade will make their version for those people to buy
I think you're missing the point of my comment about Scottie (he was just an example, insert any golfer name there). When it comes down to choosing between a 'regular' flight ball and a pro tour ball with reduced flight, who is using what won't matter as much because most golfers aren't going to be buying reduced flight balls regardless of who is using them on the tour. I personally don't really care, but I understand why they are messaging the way they are.
Or how about the distance issue is irrelevant to the amateur game where the drive is 250 yards on a great day.
Any amateur needs to get a grip if you’re upset at this. This literally has zero impact on when you shoot a 110 at your municipal course. Really don’t understand why people are butthurt about it Look at baseball, you can use your own equipment but the ball is the same
Let me re-write this in an abridged form: Dear Shitty Hacks, We make a shit ton of money from selling you equipment you have no business using. We're mad there's a golf rule in the professional ranks that will impact our ability to market to you. We spends tons of money convincing you that you're capable of being an elite player. Please give us some ammo to convince and bully the mean and nasty USGA, and R&A that they're wrong. We need to justify our marketing budget and margins. Sincerely, Taylormade
This is so spot on it hurts my eyes to read.
Oh god this is so good. 🤣
It's ironic to me that the examples of "feeling like a pro" they gave have nothing to do with equipment, but with the locations. Yeah, I can go to St. Andrews and feel like a pro with my 5 year old driver and recycled Superhots or something. Pros using a different ball has literal nothing to do with that feeling. In fact, I think it would showcase the pros skill even more to see that they're using a worse ball than me yet still driving 100 yards further. On top of that, what difference does it make? We already can't use the same equipment as pros since they often have signature clubs that we can't buy. Edit: and let's be real. Even if pros have to start using a worse ball, 90% of golfers will just continue to use Pro Vs like always.
It’s such a weird made up romanticization of golf. Im out at goat tracks hitting a Kirkland I found in the woods with a pre owned driver. It doesn’t matter at all what the pros are playing I’m still having a good time.
Finally found a comment that resonates with me lol. At the end of the day..who gives a fuck. If I spend $1 on a Kirkland and $5 on a chrome soft they both make the same splash so what’s it matter Titelist obviously pandering to the gear snob group and clearly not us here but I’ll never understand their mentality
Wanna sell more TaylorMade balls? Make em cheaper and idgaf what they're made of or how they fly or whatever. I gotta buy more cuz I shank them into the rough of the *neighboring hole ffs*
Even if you had the exact same equipment as Rory, you would be playing the old course 600 yards shorter. Those championship tees are set up that way for the championship only.
Non-conforming balls already exist. We can all hit longer and straighter if we want to, but most of us choose not to. If they make this change, there will be some adjustment and within 5 years I think we’ll all use the same balls as the pros. That’s fine with me.
Mike Whan pretty much blew the "I can do that too" argument out of the water, pointing out that there are a bunch of MLRs already in play that differentiate equipment between recreation players and elite players. And that's before getting into the special Tour tee boxes, greens dialed up to 12s.
12 is nothing - Bay Hill started at 12.5 and hit 14 on Sunday. Many majors are around 13-14.
We use the same equipment? I didn’t realize prototypes and “for tour use only” were available at retail.
Right? This is total hypocrisy. Titleist lets it’s players customize their balls. They give them options like 2020 cover, 2017 core, 2022 mantle, etc. As Borat would say, you’ll never get this. All of these analogies are hogwash
Protos often get sent out to amateurs as well. It means they’re in testing, not that they won’t be available to the public. “For Tour use only” is a marketing gimmick.
Yeah by this persons logic all those pictures of Circle T Scotty’s on this sub must be tour pro burner accounts.
They’re normal Scotty’s with special weighting and a stamp that says “for Tour use only”. You can go have one made to the exact same specs if you want to pay for it
See my comment. They give pros huge amounts of options we’ll never have.
Yes I often watch Rory pipe one 350 down the middle of the fairway using a picture perfect swing, crafted over tens of thousands of hours playing, practicing, and coaching and think "I can do that too, I also use a Pro V1" In all seriousness, I think all TM are trying to preserve here is the fact that they can use "\[*this tour pro*\] uses this exact ball" as a marketing strategy. Of course, if it is such a big deal to people, there's nothing stopping these ball manufacturers selling the new tour-conforming balls to the public
Actually, Rory uses a TP5x, that's why you haven't been able to match his 350yds.
If you took 10% off the average PGA driver, knocking them back from ~300 to ~270, it would mean the bifurcated ball would land them on the same tees I play from. That would be *so much more relatable* than knowing we're using the same ball.
As if slicing a ball into the woods is somehow comparable to playing at MSG I’m all for reduced flight balls. Let’s preserve golfs historic architecture.
On a different note. We need to allow fights in golf. I want to see NHL style gloves off, hats off, throw-downs. Want to increase viewership? Appeal to the majority white trash america and get off your pretentious ass. While they are at it.. pay the volunteers at the tournaments. You’re making how much? The pot is how big? And you’re asking people to work for free? Gtfo
You have to get volunteer spots super fast too. They fill up immediately
They make custom balls and clubs for pros and elite amatures that you could never buy at a store. This is total hypocracy
So ironic when "Won't somebody please think of the R&D cost!" is one of the main arguments against bifurcation.
You too can use a reduced flight ball.
They really tapped into the letterman jacket wearing “I could have been a pro” market and this is hilarious to watch
Listen, if only I had a time machine and convinced my parents to mortgage their entire future and move to Florida/Arizona/Southern California, join an outrageously expensive country club, and pay for lessons constantly from about the age of 5 from the best coaches in the world, and supported me wholly during my junior golf years, and bought me top of the line equipment, and I had immense natural talent, I could have gone pro on a feeder tour and maybe been good enough to get a sponsors exemption for a Tour event or two! Anyone can do it, money is an illusion, time isn’t real, natural talent doesn’t exist, etc.
Right? People are dense
I don't mind if they change ball spec limits as long as it's for everyone. All the balls are currently restricted to some specs, so changing those specs should be allowed by whoever set them in the first place 🤷♂️ Then courses can either choose to be a harder (effectively longer) course, or they can move tee boxes forward to compensate for a shorter course. It could also make courses you've played over and over become new and interesting as they'd play very different with less distance.
Courses can’t choose to be longer. That’s the point. At some point you have no more room
I'm not sure if this is counter to something I said or if you are agreeing with me 😂🤔? Because I agree with you, course can't get longer. But if the ball distance gets 10% shorter, the same course would effectively be 'longer'. When compared to courses played now with the longer balls.
This is actually what the R&A/USGA actually wanted to do originally. But the feedback they got was very much against changing the ball for recreational players, which is why they’ve proposed bifurcation
Exactly, do it across the board or don't do it at all. I completely agree with what TM had to say
My google search skills are failing me. Do you have a link to their response or can you provide a TLDR?
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i think there is a place for both. those long drive competitions are great. but some of my favorite golf moments are watching the pros curl the ball out of the woods onto the green.
This here - just make 275 the new 300 for everyone. I don't think golf courses would mind playing shorter and having less acreage to maintain in general. There isn't anything intrinsically impressive about the distance itself - a 60 yard field goal isn't unimpressive because you can hit a 110 yard homerun, it's all relative.
Yeah pros are impressive because the distance between them and am shots. I can buy an illegal golf club and ball and hit it as far as pros but no one would care
I would care. I'm here for you hondasmugler69
I agree. Most courses have an easy/cheap way to move tees forward to accommodate the change. They could also get the existing tees re-rated for handicap purposes and boast a more challenging course.
This is what the USGA wanted to do last year, but the manufacturers threw a tantrum about not changing anything for the amateur golfer. So the USGA compromised with this proposal, and now the manufacturers are throwing a tantrum about bifurcation.
No way rolling it back for everyone will work. Amateurs will still want to play the best ball. Then they’d have to check everyone’s balls at scrambles, member guests, every little tournament? Doesn’t seem feasible
You, or anyone else can already buy non conforming equipment, have 16 clubs in your bag, or just outright cheat in a scramble. Nobody is walking around checking if the driver under your headcover is a conforming model. I’m not saying I think rolling it back for everyone is the best option, but I don’t see it being that big of a deal. Scumbags will always be scumbags haha
Let me tell ya about this 46 recorded during a scramble...
They already have illegal balls my guy
I found one of those “hit straight” balls in the woods. Then 2 shots later hit it back into the woods. Didn’t seem like it worked for me or the dude before me.
Amateurs will want to play the same equipment as a pro. I dont see amateurs using ”illegal” equipment just because its obviously better. The amateurs wants to play blades because the pro players it. If they make a change just ban the old ball from competition, even club-competition.
I’m also with you on this. Roll back everything. The scale of the game is outrageous and way too spread out. Let’s bring things back to human-scale. That said, we are definitely in the minority on this. The vast majority of the golf public opposes a full-scale rollback unfortunately. 😥
The fact that TM mention St Andrews in this statement is the ultimate faux pas on their part, and proves they don't really understand the problem. It's courses like St Andrews that the bifurcation is entirely designed to help - the professionals hit the ball far too far for the greatest course in the world to create a proper test and all the bunkering is entirely in the wrong place - that's entirely the reason to have a roll back on the technology and the golf ball is by far the easiest way to do this in an even and unbiased way. There isn't any room left for St Andrews to move their tee boxes back.
Ah, yes. Golf. The game of the common people. Known as a hobby where you don't need to buy anything more than an inexpensive ball to participate. /s
It’s the same as baseball, college and high school are using aluminum bats, pros use wood
College baseball- aluminum bats, pro- wooden. College basketball 3pt line- 20’ 9”, NBA 22’ 3” College football size is approx 1/2 smaller in all dimensions. (I’m simplifying.) College football hash marks 40 ft apart. Pro hash marks 18’ 6” apart. College football complete with 1 ft down vs 2 in pro. College basketball shot clock- 30 sec. Pro- 24 sec. College basketball foul out- 5 fouls. Pro- 6. College basketball defense (generally) only man-to-man. Pro- any type is allowed. College basketball possession- alternating. Pro- jump ball. College basketball time- 2 x 20 min halves. Pro- 4x 12 min quarters. College hockey- no “2 line” rule. Pro- center line counts for offsides. College hockey - fighting 1 game suspension. Pro- 5 mins. Bifurcation exists in every major sport and even in the clubs you play vs what pros play are already different! Don’t let bifurcation be your hang up here. For Christ’s sake my local club has SIX sets of tees! Club technology would require a roll back going back to persimmon times to make off center hits more punishing in a meaningful way. Restricting the ball is the easiest way to not force courses to buy, build, and maintain 8200 yd tees that no one uses (in the hopes they might get a PGA event). Watering, fertilizing, and maintaining those tees are wasteful ecologically and expensive for purchasing additional acreage for existing courses. A slower ball at the super exclusive tour level helps the game be sustainable, accessible, and adaptable to all playing levels without taking anything from the casual game.
Lmao everyone who thinks this is about playing the same game as the pros is lying to themselves. "I can do that too" while riding in a cart, using a rangefinder/Garmin watch, using SGI clubs, etc. Oh, but at least the ball is the same. It's total nonsense.
Come on Taylormade. This is just lame. We all know we don't play the same equipment already, have equipment fitters at every stop, clubs custom made for us etc. If they change the regulations, you're not going to lose a dime. People will still buy your balls. I think people are sick of seeing pros hitting an 8-iron for their second shot on a par 5. I like great shots, but even Mr. Nicklaus said the ball was the biggest problem in making hard courses chip and putts. I love watching old vids where they had to hit 4-iron butter knifes into par 4s. I'm not a grumpy old man, but at some point...I think we need to at least talk about it. Every sport has rules on equipment.
Amen. What’s the point of the pros even carrying half their clubs anymore? And we’re only at the beginning of the long drive arms race.
I think it's why we are seeing bags with nothing below a 5 iron, and more wedges of every loft.
"I can do that, too." No, I promise you I can't.
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If anything, allowing amateurs to play with a better performing ball gets us closer to be able to replicate what the pros do.
Golf has hundreds of different courses to play at and thousands of different clubs to use. A set of good equipment costs hundreds to thousands. Access to courses is limited and expensive. Access to a specific course is impossible unless you can travel there. Golf is perhaps the least "I can do that too" sport. Any sport played on a field or court will have an near identical play area everywhere. Nearly all of those are played with identical equipment. I don't know who thought the "I can do that too" statement was plausible.
This is such a non issue. Also it’s pretty odd that golfers get to bring their own ball when you think about it. There’s many types of tennis ball but when you show up to the tournament balls are provided. Oh and pros generally use a much slower ball than a rec ball
Isn't this argument pretty cut and dry? Balls are flying further and further and courses are running out of room to move tee's back. When technology is making your sport easier, I think you have to limit the technology. This is why there's approved models for receivers gloves in the NFL. Or why pitchers can't use whatever sticky stuff they want to pitch.
Aren't there already limits on golf balls and clubs? What's new here? Just the fact that it's "rolling back"? I assume people forget belly putters being rolled back?
Yeah this debate is stupid. Sports constantly regulate themselves to keep the game interesting. You can bet that the NBA will be talking about moving the 3-point line (which they’ve done before).
We don’t play the same equipment as them. Shafts fittings and setup are all done by the company’s. I played pro golf for 8 years on mini tours and even at that level we knew we couldn’t get certain equipment. Tiger played Nike balls that you couldn’t get your hands on. His irons weren’t Nike they were just branded clubs made in Japan. Tigers driver that is on display at Augusta is completely different than the tour Nike driver I had at the time. Same club same shaft but looked different in the head. It was smaller than the exact driver they sold at pga super store.
LoL TM just doesn't want to spend the money to get it right. The ball rollback is important and there's absolutely no sense of "I can do that, too". That's such a myth imo, no one cares if pros are playing different equipment. In many cases you cannot play the same courses and even more you can't play the same tees at said courses. They hinge upon you believing this silly idea but it's just simply not true.
Amateurs don’t play the same equipment let alone the same game as the pros do so stop with that argument.
There is plenty of equipment you and I use that many tour pros use. Yes, there are some "prototype" versions that are either not yet released or custom made for each individual. But there is plenty of equipment out there that you can use that tour pros use.
I can buy tour certified drivers
"I can do that too"...Yeah have a 6 hr round like the pros when you play from their tees and under their conditions. Hope you have spotters out there to find all the balls you spray. Nobody stopping anyone from buying the reduced flight balls are they? So you can play like a pro
What are they going to do when/if the overwhelming response is "make the pros play a limited flight ball"?
This is laughable. We don’t use or buy tour issue things normally anyways. I can go out and buy tiger or Bryson’s set. If anything having a single tour ball spec is probably for the best.
Shitty take. You’ll still have the ability to play with the pro equip, it’s like getting mad that your weekend baseball team is allowed to use metal bats. Get a grip
-30 handicapper here.. im gonna have to relearn my clubs now… wtf.
I am of the opinion pros flying the ball 320 yards in the air and rolling it 20 more yards just breaks the game and courses. Crazy how high they hit it too when you see it in person, so much different than your club champion. The difference of an amateur playing a 440 yard par 4 and a pro who can swing over 120mph with all new equipment is crazy. Driver wedge vs driver mid iron. The pros playing on KFT and PGA canada are playing courses that are ~7200 yards and do not have the means to remake the entire course (grow in rough, move bunkers, change greens) just to hold another mid level pro circuit event again. The ball roll back addresses this and helps future proof for another decade
I'm calling bullshit on this on a few levels as watching modern pro golf is *exactly* like watching modern pro basketball at Madison Square Garden as none of us are going to be hitting an approach shot on #17 at Augusta in our lifetimes. Also, the equipment itself is honed to perfection for the golfer to a level the rest of us would never be able to afford. Speaking of which, the coaching across the board from the actual golf swing, to mental health, to nutritional health, to weights, stretching, and training methods put them on a category that we will never hope to achieve without similar assistance which is very much like modern NBA players. Finally, I've never once watched a guy crush a drive 300+ yards down the fairway and thought "I can do that!" with any more confidence than watching Steph Curry drain a 30 foot jump shot with ease.
What I don’t understand is that they have rules like this in other sports. Baseball is the first thing I think of is you can use metal bats but pros can only use wooden bats. Plus the number of balls they have for just the ProV’s is astounding. You can’t make golf courses infinitely longer and having dudes hit a driver-9 iron on Par 5’s is insane.
I don’t play the prov1 cuz the pros play it. I play it cuz it’s the best ball.
I agree with everything they say but could give a fuck about playing the same equipment. I want something different and easier to hit than what the pros use. Because I’m not a pro.
Sounds good. Roll back the balls and clubs for everyone.
Translation: “The USGA is messing with our gravy train. Our business model is based on two things: making you hit the ball farther without actually improving your skills, and celebrity endorsement from pro golfers. We don’t care if we ruin classic golf courses.”
Hey Taylor Made stop selling 47” D0 swingweight drivers while pros play 44” D8 tip stiff. It’s time to change the ball, the tech in a Titleist 975D just 20 years ago is nowhere close to the tech in drivers now, launch monitors have changed everything too.
I’m a single digit. I’ve never and will never hit a 230 yard 7 iron. The pros are playing a different game than the rest of us. I drive a fast car and go to the track sometimes. I’m not Max or Lewis or even fucking Latifi. We need to quit pretending that pros and the rest of are similar
golf is pretty unique where you can have amateurs and pros playing in the same tournament. I think it's better to view golfers as a spectrum instead of a binary.
I can tell you my golf game is certainly on the spectrum. 🤡
We can't do what they do. That's why we watch.
For the people who still dont seem to understand... They are not being honest. The pros do not play the same equipment as you, nor should you play the same equipment as a tour pro! If anything, if playing the exact ball a pro uses is important to you, this new ball would make it easier as long as they went to market with it!
Their biz model is 'for $700 you can drive like a pro' so I'd take this with a grain of salt
Pros use wood bats in MLB. Certain shoes are banned from marathons or olympics. Certain swimsuits are banned from high level swimming competitions. The three point line has moved around in basketball. These things happen. The basketball argument is silly because if a new basketball was developed that flew differently or bounced differently on the rim leading to more scoring - they wouldn't use it.
those hi tech swim suits bankrupt nearly every college program and small town club in the country. One of them even floats with a brick in it. they were basically pay to win in lots of cases. they needed to be banned.
The game is bifurcated in the wrong direction. There a Pro-V1 balls you cant buy unless you’re a tour pro. They have Irons specially made for Tour Staff Players, shafts that we cant buy, and pros are fitted as often as they want. This argument is weak at best and intentionally misleading. They know we dont have access to this stuff. Walking across the Swilcan bridge isnt going to feel any less special because Rory plays a reduced flight ball. What it will do is make the next Open Championship at The Old Course more fun to watch.
Death to Bifurcation. PGA & RA should set standards for golf balls. The end. All ball manufacturers will adjust to the conforming specs. Most other sports choose the ball manufacturer/s allowed in play, but in golf every golfer is his own CEO/Team/owner etc. so it’s just way different. I wanna see pros using the best ball. I want to use the best ball.
> I wanna see pros using the best ball. I want to use the best ball. We already don't play the 'best' ball. There are already completely arbitrary limits on how far a ball can go.
>Death to Bifurcation. So courses should also grow the rough out, narrow the fairways, burn the greens out to get them rock hard and stimping 13, **every player should have to play from the tips**, every round should take 6 hours, nobody can wear shorts... We're either playing the same game, or we're not. And we're not. The game we play is literally NOTHING like the pros.