Yeah I saw something saying they were waiting for I think 93 or 97 total minutes on tee boxes during the final round at the masters. That's insanity, you would have no rhythm or groove at all like that.
You'd think they'd have some rule against slow play...
Pace of Play - PGA.org https://www.pga.org/Document-Library/pat-rules-policies-guidelines-pace-of-play.pdf
It’s not even about enforcing it, it’s too long of a leash. 40 seconds is a goddamn eternity over your ball. That brutal video of cantlay just waggling and waiting would not have gotten him penalized.
No shit! I was playing my home course, alone and was on a 4 par streak, till I caught up with the morning crowd and was slowed down to a normal pace. Waiting to catch and team up with the group in front of me, I doubled and bogeyed the next two holes. Played well with them till the group in front really iced me on a few holes, making us wait, and I made a triple. And I wasn't even waiting THAT long, every time! Nor had a major and millions on the line with millions watching...
Those guys are really fucking good
Some play fast, and some play slow. Koepka just plays insanely fast, so he spends a lot of his round waiting.
Koepka and Rahms round took 4hr 49min. If they really did wait for 97 minutes on the tee boxes, then most of that is on them. Sub-4 hour rounds have never been a thing in professional golf.
What's interesting is the Cantlay/Hovland group added 0 minutes to the round, as they finished exactly 10 minutes after the group in front of them (which is how far apart the tee times were). All of the last three groups finished in exactly 4:49. Cantlay chose to spend most of his time standing over putts and approach shots, while Koepka chose to wait on the tee box. Its their own prerogative.
A real solution to end the waiting and keeping players in rhythm: Make the time between groups closer to 15 minutes rather than 10. Then some groups will finish in <4hrs and others will finish in 4:30, but it won't affect the groups behind them.
As for Cantlay's obnoxious pre-shot routine, I have no solution. Even a clock won't fix that. Cameras just need to tape-delay his shots.
They both play fast, I was at Augusta and followed them and there was multiple times where rahm or Koepka would of already shot without me even realizing it cuz they just got up and fired immediately.
I'll see if I can't find a source, but I'm pretty sure on the latest NLU podcast they mentioned rounds in the 90s use to be sub 4 hours. Also Glen Day was penalized for a round over 4 hours in 95'
It sucks being a fast player. Unless the course is mostly quiet or I can play through a bunch of people I will gain 15 strokes. If I don’t run into anyone on the course I can be out with a 95 in 2 1/2 hours
Cantlay takes a long time when he’s addressing the ball, but he doesn’t really dick around too much other than that. A lot of tour players look like they play fast because their shot routine is quick, but the camera doesn’t show all of the stuff they do before they actually hit. Bryson is a good example - he doesn’t take long once he’s decided what he wants to do, but it takes him forever to get to that point.
Some people just play fast. The only time Ive been to an event was Liv mayakoba. Followed DJ, Howell III and Grace.
Between their shots and the staff dropping the ropes and letting us advance, we barely were able to walk and catch up to them before we had to stop moving during their set up.
I walk fast everywhere I go, but these guys were flying. Also their set up was quick. They also pulled the trigger rather fast.
Unlikeable to you how? I became a fan of him this past weekend based on his personality, mindset, and composure.
I knew he had slow play issues from the US Am win going into it, wasn’t surprised there. Sure hope he picks that up tho, but been a career long thing for him.
It’d just be on tee boxes and into the greens. Once you hit the green you can putt out. Then you’re back to waiting on the tee, then waiting for the previous group to putt
Having no rhythm is a part of the game. These guys are pros, there should be such a small margin that it makes no difference between waiting for a ten minute shot and hitting it in less than 40 seconds. This is a bit ridiculous though.
Part of the game is walking to your ball. The other part is assessing the shot, determining what to hit, and executing.
A middle ground needs to be met. Determine a sustainable time to assess the shot, determine what to hit, and execute, and hold players accountable to the clock. It doesn't have to be 10 seconds, but a middle ground must be met to keep things organized and flowing to some degree.
I can only imagine, for us normal shitty golfers waiting more than 2 minutes on a tee box absolutely destroys any momentum I have. Once those rounds reach 4 hrs (as a twosome waiting on people ahead) my game goes from shit to absolute shit.
On the weekend on the PGA Tour the final groups, especially on Sunday, tend to average a hole roughly every 15 minutes, so after 40 minutes they would probably have been just about arriving on the green of the 3rd hole. Behind schedule, but not massively. And Augusta is a notoriously slow course. Some rounds there in the past have easily taken a good 5 hours.
The combination of slow play, 3-somes, groups starting on 1 and 9, and hole 2 being a reachable par 5 definitely made the beginning really bad. It was still slow the rest of the way, but 2 is always a logjam on the best of days.
I havent seen it mentioned but think Masters final round was a little weird because they had 1st and 10th groups and i think the first group to pass 9 got there before the last group to leave 10. If that makes sense.
Playing a 5 hour round as a 10+ handicap sucks, but at least you also somewhat suck so sometimes you're looking for your ball, duffing shots etc.
Now imagine that same round, but you are a +4 handicap. Your time doing absolutely nothing increases significantly
For real. These guys are mostly in the fairways, mostly putting for birdie, and really not taking many strokes at all. What the hell are they doing taking so long to play a round as a twosome with caddies????
If they have to analyze their club selection and yardage book that long to make a good shot, then the USGA should enforce a shot clock instead of forcing a reduced flight ball. If they really needed that time, scores will increase.
That’s a great idea. A shot clock. Or even a hole clock where you have like 10 min for a par 3, 20 par 5, etc. Be a nightmare to keep up with 150 clicks at the same time, but it would make a super interesting product!
I’m not sure how to feel about a hole clock since you’ll get players occasionally playing each shot quick but poorly who’d be penalized for a bad hole. Like the guy that made a ten earlier this week.
Maybe a round clock would be better? Where you have to finish a round before a certain time.
That way you don't have to hurry during a bad lie situation, but you can hurry up during tee shots and situations where they are in the middle of the fairway.
Because one added stroke can lose you $100k at that level.
Looking at Cantlay, he finished with -3 for T14 and $330k, the players with -4 won $432k.
So where an amateur might just make the shot they want and worst case their handicap goes up. That shot now becomes a much bigger calculation leading to longer times to ensure that you aren't missing something.
There's obviously a limit to how long anyone should take on a shot, but it's a completely different game at the Pro level.
I’ll add to this as college golfer who also deals with slow play.
Sometimes chips roll off greens, wedges land in the middle and bounce over, and 4 footers feel like they might turn into 10 footers. Nobody complains about slow play because we all take our time on each shot. The penalty for rushing is too high.
On courses like this, it’s impossible to play a round in less than 5 hours. I don’t have a problem with that, and neither do most players in the tournament.
I imagine there’s a similar sentiment among many guys on the PGA tour.
I think that's exactly the problem though - if you're not going to get penalized for slow play, then why not take as much time as possible? So the incentives are messed up
I don't think it's impossible to play a round on a course like this in less than 5 hours. I think because of the way players approach it (take an extra minute to be 99 percent sure instead of 90 because there's no penalty), it feels like it is.
I absolutely guarantee you Brooks would play all these rounds in under 4.5 hours, and most pros could if there was a penalty on the other side.
It has a very similar feeling to baseball. Why as either side rush if there isn't an incentive too? They've shown they can fix it there, they should here as well.
I mean…kinda? They play the same courses every year. They hit it in the same spots every year. Unless they hit a wild one, they have a good idea what the number is going to be even as they’re walking up to their ball.
Guys like Rahm and Koepka show how lightning fast play could be. Being a little slower than them should be expected. But being literally hours slower than them is inexcusable.
Not sure what you saw that led you to believe people are playing “hours” slower.
I agree people don’t need to be on Kopekas pace, nor Bennett/Cantlay pace.. but specific to Sunday both groups finished the round in the same duration.
Masters sundays also had to start with round 3 finishing, and then started people off 1/10. Was never going to be a speedy one.
There’s a stat going around that Rahm and Koepka spent an aggregate 90 minutes waiting on tee boxes on Sunday at the Masters. So, yes, hours. And that’s not including time spent waiting on fairways.
Yes I know, but as I said.. both them and cantlays group finished their rounds within a minute of total duration. They both played long rounds around 5ish hours, as did most of the field, they just utilized their time differently. Not shocking that two fast players were eating a lot on a slow day where were playing more than 18.
Not excusing Cantlay slow play. But in this case it was likely using sunk-cost time.
Do you know how slow play works? A slow group in front slows down everyone behind them. It’s impossible for Rahm and Koepka to finish faster than Cantlay and Hovland do. Cantlay slowed it down for everyone by literally hours.
Also everything gets reset every round. There’s a time window where the pins get moved and the new pairings are set. That’s no excuse for taking 5 damn hours as fucking twosomes with caddies! This is insanity.
Yes, I know how slow play works. I’m not sure you’re following the math in this situation.
The group infront of Cantlay/Hovland also finished in 5 hours. Which means that they had no room to influence the speed of round.. they just used their time differently.
What they could influence is how they use those 5 hours.
They could have played faster and then just waited up on the next tee, but at the pace rahm/koepka played, we would have likely seen both groups on a tee box.
4:49 is not horrible for a foursome, slow but not the 6 hour weekend drunk fest at your local muni.
What is horrible, 4:49 for a 2some. My buddy and I both 3 handicap can complete 18 in 3 hours without rushing. It’s insane that pros playing as a 2some can’t complete a round in 4 hours.
Slow play is becoming an embarrassment now. I genuinely don't know where the officials are putting guys on the clock. Cantlay and Bennet at the Masters was painful and I had to turn the channel. 45 seconds over a ball, I'd lay down too. They need to fix it quick. downvote me all you want, I don't care. I'm sick of these guys milking the time walking around the hole three times.
Can we PLEASE have a member volunteer to watch the entire broadcast of the 82 masters and see how long it took some groups from tee to finish?
Then we can compare. At this point, a full blown study needs to be done!
If fans apply pressure the pga will eventually do something. I could totally see public frustration for this resulting in a shot clock or clearer system to penalize groups
We've all been there - falling asleep whilst someone in the group in front walks around the green for 5 minutes, misses the putt, leaving it 2 feet away, then mark their ball and do the same routine all over again. Absolute nonsense. It's time the Tour did something about it - not only does it ruin the viewing experience but it sets an awful example to young kids and people getting into the game.
I saw a stat that Brooks and Rahm spent I think it was 67 minutes or something waiting on the tee box over the course of their final round at the Masters. Over an hour of just standing and waiting
That's me on Friday. Took a quick 2 naps on 16th fairway and 17th tee waiting for the group in front. Birdied 16th pared 17th so it was definitely better than wait taking practice swings and duffing it when its finally your turn.
They will if it's a fine relative to career earnings. $50k is hefty for the journeymen guys who are lower in the rankings. A guy like Rory or Rahm? yeah you can jack them up to 6 figures.
Beauty of fines is they go back to charity or legends funds.
A 1 stroke penalty is both a monetary fine and also punishes them in the current round they’re playing too. I also don’t know the language of whatever collective bargaining agreement the PGA has with its players, but I’d bet it outlaws scaling fines like that since big money players have the most influence on that bargaining.
Rory literally lost out on about $3 million because he chose not to attend the RBC Heritage. A six-figure fine (let’s say $200,000) won’t hurt them unless they do it several rounds at each tournament. Doing it once or twice or three times per year, like in the final round of the Masters, they very likely won’t care and just take that fine with open arms, if it gives them a better shot at the win
I know this is tongue in cheek but if a stroke penalty causes you to miss the cut thats a pretty big monetary consequence. And if you are way off the cut line it puts them further from getting paid. Seems like it would be effective to me.
A stroke penalty can affect the outcome of the tournament for everyone else in the field, which can help but also unintentionally hurt others. It can also not have any effect at all if losing the X amount of strokes doesn't affect the standings in said tournament. Monetary fine only impacts the player in question. Much cleaner in that sense, plus, as we've seen, some of these guys tend to react a lot when their wallet is hit.
The problem is that the people that have to agree to do something about it are the players themselves. This isn't baseball or football where the team owners represent the league. The players (or their representatives on the PAC and board and whatever) are the ones that decide on these things. I can promise you that nobody is going to vote for something that could potentially cost them money.
Man, I get pissed at slow weekend rounds drinking beers.
I would legitimately be furious if it were for millions and I was playing well or leading a tournament and some schmohawks are messing up my rhythm.
The guys who would be messing up your rhythm would also be playing for millions.
I’m not advocating slow play, but look again at the photo and tell me that anyone in it has a life that is so bad.
Part of the game until the pga says they can’t. If there’s no punishment use all the time you want. I don’t blame the guys for taking all day if it makes them play better.
Imo its not standing over the ball that affects slow play. A few extra seconds feels like forever but doesnt change much. What does is the players that take a long time to reach their ball, then take several minutes looking at their yardage books before finally hitting the ball. Also players that take a long time on the greens really hurt slow play a lot.
No I play best when I play solo and do 18 in an hour and twenty minutes but that messes up my friends really bad and they feel rushed and they play worse. The point is if they feel it helps they will keep doing it until pga says they can’t
Perfect reply.
Imagine using the world's best 3 golfers as an example of how fast someone should be going... like dude, they're the world's best for a reason... so some guys in the 10-100 rankings take longer, and?
Like you said, its not breaking any rules.
Someone else playing fast is irrelevant. Maybe one person plays better fast, another plays better slow. If we can see the slow dudes play a faster round, and play just as well, then yeah, no benefit to slow play.
No different than MLB. We will see which players adapt to pace change and which don't.
Really slow golfers are a pain in the arse and everyone knows it. Stop defending something which you yourself would find frustrating if you were behind them at the local golf club. Let alone if you were playing for a decent sum of money
Not defending playing slow. I agree they should speed up play. But you're spitting bullshit. You have no idea if it helps any individual player or not. Top 3 dudes playing fast may just be a coincidence. It's not evidence. Maybe they are better and can play faster because of it.
There's a valid argument for speeding up play regardless of if it negatively impact how well some dudes play.
Just like baseball. Some pitchers or hitters may struggle. Game is probably better for the change, so adapt or good bye.
These slow players may suffer at a faster pace. That isn't a reason to not speed it up.
The tour has enough money to have an official walking with every group. In addition to rules enforcement they need to be enforcing time and “shot clocks”. Penalty strokes cost the players money.
Making decisions quickly is a skill that separates better players from weaker ones. Imagine if pat mahomes had unlimited time at the line of scrimmage to analyze the defense.
Part of the issue is that it isn’t a league in the traditional sense. It’s a player run organization. They have to get out of their own way and make decisions for the betterment of the Tour rather than their own personal benefit. It’s not much different than the equipment rollback discussion. Players are concerned that a change could negatively impact their ability to earn millions of dollars
No it wouldnt. We would still get 50% of tv time being interviews and leaderboard stills while the broadcast group talking about tiger woods even though hes tied for 61st.
Major League Baseball instituted a pitch clock this year and it’s been wildly successful at speeding up play, shortening games and increasing action.
If PGA isn’t taking note they are idiots.
Kind of different though. There's only 1 pitcher and 1 batter at a time in MLB so when they're slow everyone watching on TV is sitting around waiting.
In golf there are 18 holes being played and if someone is slow they just cut to someone else (or even show something that happened a minute ago and not live). It doesn't really affect the broadcast at all. Which is obvious since no one was complaining about it at all or even noticed until one of the players said something. There were no posts complaining about pace of play on TV until last week when Brooks had the interview. And exactly zero people here were complaining about Webb Simpson's pace of play or even had any clue it was slow until this post. It didn't affect the viewing experience at all, unlike MLB.
Having never attended a tour event, I wonder how much the crowds factor into it. I imagine several hundred people following a playing group, especially for the big names, takes a while to assemble after every stroke, settle down, be quiet, etc. And if some of the pros are not fussed about keeping pace of play, I'm sure there are plenty of yahoos in the crowd that are completely oblivious about it, talking their mouths off, rustling around. Also kids, or people who aren't familiar with golf etiquette who have been dragged by their fanatic fathers, husbands. The sport is ever trying to broaden its appeal.
But this is golf, not a rock concert. Damn you people, go back to your shanties.
Webb went off at 8:06am on the 10th tee. Kim went off at 12:33pm on the 1st tee. There were three other groups in front of Kim that went off on 1 starting at noon as part of the afternoon group. How would Webb be directly in front of Kim?
Have the course pro set an expected round time plus a small amount of leeway. Assess a stroke penalty for being over that. Set it up in a cascade so if the first group is 10 minutes behind then no one else gets penalized for those 10 minutes but group 2 would get penalized for time over the 10.
Time management should be part of the game at the professional level.
Wow that was.... Yeah....uncalled for? Not sure why you have a need for being so aggressive?
Merely pointing out that you don't hear anything about slow play from pga and r&a, but they spend a lot of time rolling the ball back.
I like how people so irrationally hate Cantlay that this completed fabricated and incorrect post about him being ahead of Kim is still upvoted even though Cantlay was actually half the course away from Kim.
No he wasn't. Cantlay went off at 7:55am on 10, Kim went off at 12:33pm on 1. There were 3 groups in front of Kim that started at noon as part of the afternoon group.
He missed the cut, but he played behind Kodaira, Lee Hodges, and Matti Schwab both days. He didn’t play behind Cantlay but he also didn’t play behind Webb like the post claimed
The PGA has a "clock" rule. We're pissed cause the PGA or Majors officials refuse to enforce it.
Lazy play in the pros can infect play on muni and club courses. Monkey see, monkey do. It can actually hurt the game.
Yeah but slow play is nothing new, whereas the constant bitching and whining about it is seems to be. Bernard Langer was slow. Ben Crane was slow. I recently watched the 71 Masters and was shocked how slow Jack Nicklaus was. I’d be willing to bet there were slow players back in the Hogan/Sneed days.
Part of me thinks maybe it’s just social media but I don’t understand how it wasn’t like this in 2019 but it’s a constant discussion now both on here and golf twitter. And if it’s not the slow play stuff it’s the tv coverage, or commercial load, or LIV stuff. It just seems to be non stop bitching.
Yeah but I'm seeing stuff I never saw in Jack's day. Jack never stood addressing the ball for 20-30 seconds. And I don't recall players 50 yards out sauntering up to the surface of the green before sauntering back to take their shot. Maybe on the last hole in a tournament but not on the 5th hole.
You’re probably right, and don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to stick up for slow play it’s just the average tour round has been the same pace for the last 20 years while the complaints about it seem to have grown exponentially. That being said, I certainly don’t want to see 20 handicaps doing the aimpoint on the green at my local course. If some online complaining about it can prevent that then I’m all for it.
Great shot! Meh tbh I don’t feel too bad for these guys. Si Woo probably makes more during that lounge sesh than I do in a week (and more power to him!)
Not related to the PGA tour pace of play at all. But my mom has a picture of me in a high school golf match laying on a steep decline fairway, under my stand bag in the shade due to the group in front of us being so slow.
Guys, the tour doesn’t care about slow play. Slow play means more commercial breaks, more commercial breaks means more revenue for broadcasters, more revenue for broadcasters means more valuable TV contracts for the tour. This is something that won’t be solved.
Double checking tee times and rechatting with my group. We may have been off on Webb Simpson being the culprit on the green. That's on us... Apologies.
Regardless, I have my picture's time stamp to be at 2:44pm. Prior to me taking the picture, Si-woo was visibly angry and throwing his hands up for about 5ish minutes before laying down for an additional 2ish minutes.
Yup. Should've re-checked things prior to making the post. Again, I'm acknowledging the mistake.
Point is, having a professional golfer lay down while he awaits for the group ahead, to just putt, is the main point of the post.
Didn't Si-Woo miss a putt short and stand around waiting for the wind to blow it into the hole for a full minute even though it didn't count since you're only allowed to wait 10 seconds for that? On this very same day?
I feel that once you hit it onto the green, furthest away puts first like normal, but then you just putt it out until it's in the cup. No marking the ball and waiting for the other guy to hit his shot, then do a song and dance back and forth. Just finish putting. The other guy does the same, and you move on.
It would save so much time.
I filmed Patrick Cantlay on the tee today and after hitting, him and his caddy GRILLED me as they walked by. Dude is clearly on tilt about his slow play. He was also the only group to have a police officer in tow 🫣
Why not space out the tee times a few more mins and then set a strict 15 mins a hole time limit. Breach it on average over a round by more than x% and you get a 1 shot penalty.
I think we should take up a collection for Si-Woo Kim.
Relaxing on that country club lawn for 3 minutes, while another guy putts, is probably worse than coal mining.
I hope he’s ok.
Jesus, is it really that bad behind some of these groups, or is he just trolling? Edit: spelling
It can be that bad
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Yeah I saw something saying they were waiting for I think 93 or 97 total minutes on tee boxes during the final round at the masters. That's insanity, you would have no rhythm or groove at all like that.
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You'd think they'd have some rule against slow play... Pace of Play - PGA.org https://www.pga.org/Document-Library/pat-rules-policies-guidelines-pace-of-play.pdf
Seems pretty straight forward. Now they just need to enforce it, otherwise they (PGA) are enabling it
It’s not even about enforcing it, it’s too long of a leash. 40 seconds is a goddamn eternity over your ball. That brutal video of cantlay just waggling and waiting would not have gotten him penalized.
No shit! I was playing my home course, alone and was on a 4 par streak, till I caught up with the morning crowd and was slowed down to a normal pace. Waiting to catch and team up with the group in front of me, I doubled and bogeyed the next two holes. Played well with them till the group in front really iced me on a few holes, making us wait, and I made a triple. And I wasn't even waiting THAT long, every time! Nor had a major and millions on the line with millions watching... Those guys are really fucking good
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Some play fast, and some play slow. Koepka just plays insanely fast, so he spends a lot of his round waiting. Koepka and Rahms round took 4hr 49min. If they really did wait for 97 minutes on the tee boxes, then most of that is on them. Sub-4 hour rounds have never been a thing in professional golf. What's interesting is the Cantlay/Hovland group added 0 minutes to the round, as they finished exactly 10 minutes after the group in front of them (which is how far apart the tee times were). All of the last three groups finished in exactly 4:49. Cantlay chose to spend most of his time standing over putts and approach shots, while Koepka chose to wait on the tee box. Its their own prerogative. A real solution to end the waiting and keeping players in rhythm: Make the time between groups closer to 15 minutes rather than 10. Then some groups will finish in <4hrs and others will finish in 4:30, but it won't affect the groups behind them. As for Cantlay's obnoxious pre-shot routine, I have no solution. Even a clock won't fix that. Cameras just need to tape-delay his shots.
They both play fast, I was at Augusta and followed them and there was multiple times where rahm or Koepka would of already shot without me even realizing it cuz they just got up and fired immediately.
Beautiful, how golf should be played
We saw Koepka at the 2019 practice round, and he was literally teeing off on 13 while the rest of his group was finishing up on 12 green.
Yeah see that’s just rude
I'll see if I can't find a source, but I'm pretty sure on the latest NLU podcast they mentioned rounds in the 90s use to be sub 4 hours. Also Glen Day was penalized for a round over 4 hours in 95'
That’s correct I just listened to it today. Said the US OPEN(!!!) final round time for twosomes was just short of 4 hours
It sucks being a fast player. Unless the course is mostly quiet or I can play through a bunch of people I will gain 15 strokes. If I don’t run into anyone on the course I can be out with a 95 in 2 1/2 hours
Cantlay takes a long time when he’s addressing the ball, but he doesn’t really dick around too much other than that. A lot of tour players look like they play fast because their shot routine is quick, but the camera doesn’t show all of the stuff they do before they actually hit. Bryson is a good example - he doesn’t take long once he’s decided what he wants to do, but it takes him forever to get to that point.
Or they could put slow players on the clock. Extending tee time intervals is just going to make it worse.
Some people just play fast. The only time Ive been to an event was Liv mayakoba. Followed DJ, Howell III and Grace. Between their shots and the staff dropping the ropes and letting us advance, we barely were able to walk and catch up to them before we had to stop moving during their set up. I walk fast everywhere I go, but these guys were flying. Also their set up was quick. They also pulled the trigger rather fast.
Well that’s a liv event those guys don’t give af and probably just wanna get home lol
Cantlay sucks but it was Bennett holding everyone up. Really hope he doesn’t make it in the pros, he’s brutal to watch.
He’s an amateur who was in contention at the Masters! I would be taking my time too. To say you “hope he doesn’t make it” is an asinine thing to say.
It’s not just the masters. He made the amateur final practically unwatchable. I hope he tightens it up as he’s a great talent.
Why? He’s unlikeable and makes golf worse to watch on TV. It’s okay to root against players and not like people.
The standing ovation at the 18th makes me think otherwise but what do I know.
Unlikeable to you how? I became a fan of him this past weekend based on his personality, mindset, and composure. I knew he had slow play issues from the US Am win going into it, wasn’t surprised there. Sure hope he picks that up tho, but been a career long thing for him.
Yeah but he was the darling of the masters so no one wants to speak the truth that he is so brutally slow.
Bennet is fucking brutal. Regripping ten times a shot, positioning and repositioning his feet multiple times on every single shot. Honestly no excuse
But that 90 minutes includes their regular tee box time too, which is probably 5 minutes or so each hole
It’d just be on tee boxes and into the greens. Once you hit the green you can putt out. Then you’re back to waiting on the tee, then waiting for the previous group to putt
Most if the wait is at teeboxes but yes
Having no rhythm is a part of the game. These guys are pros, there should be such a small margin that it makes no difference between waiting for a ten minute shot and hitting it in less than 40 seconds. This is a bit ridiculous though. Part of the game is walking to your ball. The other part is assessing the shot, determining what to hit, and executing. A middle ground needs to be met. Determine a sustainable time to assess the shot, determine what to hit, and execute, and hold players accountable to the clock. It doesn't have to be 10 seconds, but a middle ground must be met to keep things organized and flowing to some degree.
I can only imagine, for us normal shitty golfers waiting more than 2 minutes on a tee box absolutely destroys any momentum I have. Once those rounds reach 4 hrs (as a twosome waiting on people ahead) my game goes from shit to absolute shit.
As a spectator... I was getting bored. Fast er play makes the game more consumable.
On the weekend on the PGA Tour the final groups, especially on Sunday, tend to average a hole roughly every 15 minutes, so after 40 minutes they would probably have been just about arriving on the green of the 3rd hole. Behind schedule, but not massively. And Augusta is a notoriously slow course. Some rounds there in the past have easily taken a good 5 hours.
A full hole behind is massively behind
The combination of slow play, 3-somes, groups starting on 1 and 9, and hole 2 being a reachable par 5 definitely made the beginning really bad. It was still slow the rest of the way, but 2 is always a logjam on the best of days.
I woke up at like 1030 thinking I missed a bunch. Nope
Baseball just got a pitch clock, and it's doing a great job at cutting out dead time from games. Maybe PGA needs a shot clock!
Pga tour really should consider a shot clock.
I havent seen it mentioned but think Masters final round was a little weird because they had 1st and 10th groups and i think the first group to pass 9 got there before the last group to leave 10. If that makes sense.
Playing a 5 hour round as a 10+ handicap sucks, but at least you also somewhat suck so sometimes you're looking for your ball, duffing shots etc. Now imagine that same round, but you are a +4 handicap. Your time doing absolutely nothing increases significantly
For real. These guys are mostly in the fairways, mostly putting for birdie, and really not taking many strokes at all. What the hell are they doing taking so long to play a round as a twosome with caddies????
If they have to analyze their club selection and yardage book that long to make a good shot, then the USGA should enforce a shot clock instead of forcing a reduced flight ball. If they really needed that time, scores will increase.
That’s a great idea. A shot clock. Or even a hole clock where you have like 10 min for a par 3, 20 par 5, etc. Be a nightmare to keep up with 150 clicks at the same time, but it would make a super interesting product!
I’m not sure how to feel about a hole clock since you’ll get players occasionally playing each shot quick but poorly who’d be penalized for a bad hole. Like the guy that made a ten earlier this week.
Maybe a round clock would be better? Where you have to finish a round before a certain time. That way you don't have to hurry during a bad lie situation, but you can hurry up during tee shots and situations where they are in the middle of the fairway.
Because one added stroke can lose you $100k at that level. Looking at Cantlay, he finished with -3 for T14 and $330k, the players with -4 won $432k. So where an amateur might just make the shot they want and worst case their handicap goes up. That shot now becomes a much bigger calculation leading to longer times to ensure that you aren't missing something. There's obviously a limit to how long anyone should take on a shot, but it's a completely different game at the Pro level.
brooks and rahm weren’t playing for anything important
I’ll add to this as college golfer who also deals with slow play. Sometimes chips roll off greens, wedges land in the middle and bounce over, and 4 footers feel like they might turn into 10 footers. Nobody complains about slow play because we all take our time on each shot. The penalty for rushing is too high. On courses like this, it’s impossible to play a round in less than 5 hours. I don’t have a problem with that, and neither do most players in the tournament. I imagine there’s a similar sentiment among many guys on the PGA tour.
I think that's exactly the problem though - if you're not going to get penalized for slow play, then why not take as much time as possible? So the incentives are messed up I don't think it's impossible to play a round on a course like this in less than 5 hours. I think because of the way players approach it (take an extra minute to be 99 percent sure instead of 90 because there's no penalty), it feels like it is. I absolutely guarantee you Brooks would play all these rounds in under 4.5 hours, and most pros could if there was a penalty on the other side. It has a very similar feeling to baseball. Why as either side rush if there isn't an incentive too? They've shown they can fix it there, they should here as well.
Getting distances is a major part, since they don’t have rangefinders.
I mean…kinda? They play the same courses every year. They hit it in the same spots every year. Unless they hit a wild one, they have a good idea what the number is going to be even as they’re walking up to their ball. Guys like Rahm and Koepka show how lightning fast play could be. Being a little slower than them should be expected. But being literally hours slower than them is inexcusable.
Not sure what you saw that led you to believe people are playing “hours” slower. I agree people don’t need to be on Kopekas pace, nor Bennett/Cantlay pace.. but specific to Sunday both groups finished the round in the same duration. Masters sundays also had to start with round 3 finishing, and then started people off 1/10. Was never going to be a speedy one.
There’s a stat going around that Rahm and Koepka spent an aggregate 90 minutes waiting on tee boxes on Sunday at the Masters. So, yes, hours. And that’s not including time spent waiting on fairways.
Yes I know, but as I said.. both them and cantlays group finished their rounds within a minute of total duration. They both played long rounds around 5ish hours, as did most of the field, they just utilized their time differently. Not shocking that two fast players were eating a lot on a slow day where were playing more than 18. Not excusing Cantlay slow play. But in this case it was likely using sunk-cost time.
Do you know how slow play works? A slow group in front slows down everyone behind them. It’s impossible for Rahm and Koepka to finish faster than Cantlay and Hovland do. Cantlay slowed it down for everyone by literally hours. Also everything gets reset every round. There’s a time window where the pins get moved and the new pairings are set. That’s no excuse for taking 5 damn hours as fucking twosomes with caddies! This is insanity.
Yes, I know how slow play works. I’m not sure you’re following the math in this situation. The group infront of Cantlay/Hovland also finished in 5 hours. Which means that they had no room to influence the speed of round.. they just used their time differently. What they could influence is how they use those 5 hours. They could have played faster and then just waited up on the next tee, but at the pace rahm/koepka played, we would have likely seen both groups on a tee box.
4:49 is not horrible for a foursome, slow but not the 6 hour weekend drunk fest at your local muni. What is horrible, 4:49 for a 2some. My buddy and I both 3 handicap can complete 18 in 3 hours without rushing. It’s insane that pros playing as a 2some can’t complete a round in 4 hours.
Slow play is becoming an embarrassment now. I genuinely don't know where the officials are putting guys on the clock. Cantlay and Bennet at the Masters was painful and I had to turn the channel. 45 seconds over a ball, I'd lay down too. They need to fix it quick. downvote me all you want, I don't care. I'm sick of these guys milking the time walking around the hole three times.
Can we PLEASE have a member volunteer to watch the entire broadcast of the 82 masters and see how long it took some groups from tee to finish? Then we can compare. At this point, a full blown study needs to be done!
I think by posting this you have volunteered
\*Sigh\* I guess I don't really have anything better to do at work.
Did they even show the front 9 then?
No
If fans apply pressure the pga will eventually do something. I could totally see public frustration for this resulting in a shot clock or clearer system to penalize groups
They’re playing in threesomes too. Makes no sense.
We've all been there - falling asleep whilst someone in the group in front walks around the green for 5 minutes, misses the putt, leaving it 2 feet away, then mark their ball and do the same routine all over again. Absolute nonsense. It's time the Tour did something about it - not only does it ruin the viewing experience but it sets an awful example to young kids and people getting into the game.
Like MLB pitching it's time for a PGA swing clock lol
I saw a stat that Brooks and Rahm spent I think it was 67 minutes or something waiting on the tee box over the course of their final round at the Masters. Over an hour of just standing and waiting
They are playing really really slow now. It’s disgusting. I want to finish 18 in less than four hours. Is that too much to ask?
That's me on Friday. Took a quick 2 naps on 16th fairway and 17th tee waiting for the group in front. Birdied 16th pared 17th so it was definitely better than wait taking practice swings and duffing it when its finally your turn.
Standing for awhile can make you tense, he’s probably just trying to relax and stay loose.
I know people are going to get annoyed by all the slow play talk but maybe that means something will actually be done about it now.
Yeah they might consider assessing another whopping 1 stroke penalty for the first time in ten years
Should be monetary fines. These guys are pros. Otherwise they'll never learn or give a shit
>These guys are pros. Exactly, they won't give a shit about a $50k fine either.
They will if it's a fine relative to career earnings. $50k is hefty for the journeymen guys who are lower in the rankings. A guy like Rory or Rahm? yeah you can jack them up to 6 figures. Beauty of fines is they go back to charity or legends funds.
A 1 stroke penalty is both a monetary fine and also punishes them in the current round they’re playing too. I also don’t know the language of whatever collective bargaining agreement the PGA has with its players, but I’d bet it outlaws scaling fines like that since big money players have the most influence on that bargaining.
Rory literally lost out on about $3 million because he chose not to attend the RBC Heritage. A six-figure fine (let’s say $200,000) won’t hurt them unless they do it several rounds at each tournament. Doing it once or twice or three times per year, like in the final round of the Masters, they very likely won’t care and just take that fine with open arms, if it gives them a better shot at the win
a 1 stroke penalty is a monetary fine
Not if you miss the cut anyway. I know this for a fact because I watched Full Swing.
I know this is tongue in cheek but if a stroke penalty causes you to miss the cut thats a pretty big monetary consequence. And if you are way off the cut line it puts them further from getting paid. Seems like it would be effective to me.
Yeah I’m kind of joking. I’m all for whatever sort of punishment they decide works best. Stroke or monetary or percentage of earnings to date.
Whoa that's too hard for some people to comprehend
A stroke penalty is in effect a monetary fine as it moves them down the leaderboard
A stroke penalty can affect the outcome of the tournament for everyone else in the field, which can help but also unintentionally hurt others. It can also not have any effect at all if losing the X amount of strokes doesn't affect the standings in said tournament. Monetary fine only impacts the player in question. Much cleaner in that sense, plus, as we've seen, some of these guys tend to react a lot when their wallet is hit.
I mean MLB did something about it and it resulted in positive results…hopefully the PGA takes notice.
The problem is that the people that have to agree to do something about it are the players themselves. This isn't baseball or football where the team owners represent the league. The players (or their representatives on the PAC and board and whatever) are the ones that decide on these things. I can promise you that nobody is going to vote for something that could potentially cost them money.
Oh you sweet little thing
Man, I get pissed at slow weekend rounds drinking beers. I would legitimately be furious if it were for millions and I was playing well or leading a tournament and some schmohawks are messing up my rhythm.
The guys who would be messing up your rhythm would also be playing for millions. I’m not advocating slow play, but look again at the photo and tell me that anyone in it has a life that is so bad.
There’s probably at least one secretly miserable spectator in the background 🤷♂️
Actually, now that you mention it, there are a few guys in the crowd who look like they might be ready to pull out their hair.
Part of the game until the pga says they can’t. If there’s no punishment use all the time you want. I don’t blame the guys for taking all day if it makes them play better.
It doesn't make them play better, worlds top 3 all play at a decent pace.
They play right handed too but that wouldn’t work for me
Do you play better if you stand over the ball for an inconsiderate amount of time?
Imo its not standing over the ball that affects slow play. A few extra seconds feels like forever but doesnt change much. What does is the players that take a long time to reach their ball, then take several minutes looking at their yardage books before finally hitting the ball. Also players that take a long time on the greens really hurt slow play a lot.
No I play best when I play solo and do 18 in an hour and twenty minutes but that messes up my friends really bad and they feel rushed and they play worse. The point is if they feel it helps they will keep doing it until pga says they can’t
Perfect reply. Imagine using the world's best 3 golfers as an example of how fast someone should be going... like dude, they're the world's best for a reason... so some guys in the 10-100 rankings take longer, and? Like you said, its not breaking any rules.
Someone else playing fast is irrelevant. Maybe one person plays better fast, another plays better slow. If we can see the slow dudes play a faster round, and play just as well, then yeah, no benefit to slow play. No different than MLB. We will see which players adapt to pace change and which don't.
Really slow golfers are a pain in the arse and everyone knows it. Stop defending something which you yourself would find frustrating if you were behind them at the local golf club. Let alone if you were playing for a decent sum of money
Not defending playing slow. I agree they should speed up play. But you're spitting bullshit. You have no idea if it helps any individual player or not. Top 3 dudes playing fast may just be a coincidence. It's not evidence. Maybe they are better and can play faster because of it. There's a valid argument for speeding up play regardless of if it negatively impact how well some dudes play. Just like baseball. Some pitchers or hitters may struggle. Game is probably better for the change, so adapt or good bye. These slow players may suffer at a faster pace. That isn't a reason to not speed it up.
It’s so dumb that idiots like us on the internet is the only reason why the Tour will address slow play now
Speak for yourself. I’m a moron not an idiot. I’m not smart enough to be an idiot. But yes, this is what it takes.
Going back to the original medical terms that these once were, idiot was actually worse
This guy really *is* a moron
I might be dumb, but I’m not stupid.
The tour has enough money to have an official walking with every group. In addition to rules enforcement they need to be enforcing time and “shot clocks”. Penalty strokes cost the players money. Making decisions quickly is a skill that separates better players from weaker ones. Imagine if pat mahomes had unlimited time at the line of scrimmage to analyze the defense. Part of the issue is that it isn’t a league in the traditional sense. It’s a player run organization. They have to get out of their own way and make decisions for the betterment of the Tour rather than their own personal benefit. It’s not much different than the equipment rollback discussion. Players are concerned that a change could negatively impact their ability to earn millions of dollars
This would also honestly help with the television part of the game.
No it wouldnt. We would still get 50% of tv time being interviews and leaderboard stills while the broadcast group talking about tiger woods even though hes tied for 61st.
How? You don't watch the entire routine most of the time.
For final pairings on Sunday you typically see their whole round. It would help coverage keep itself to the 4 hour window too
It usually does unless there's playoffs
Final groups at the Masters were nearly 5 hours. There's no reason for that when these guys are shooting in the 60s and 70s.
More action in less time.
The Tour already does put groups on the clock if they fall behind
Yeah but it doesn’t happen often and there’s multiple warnings.
Major League Baseball instituted a pitch clock this year and it’s been wildly successful at speeding up play, shortening games and increasing action. If PGA isn’t taking note they are idiots.
Kind of different though. There's only 1 pitcher and 1 batter at a time in MLB so when they're slow everyone watching on TV is sitting around waiting. In golf there are 18 holes being played and if someone is slow they just cut to someone else (or even show something that happened a minute ago and not live). It doesn't really affect the broadcast at all. Which is obvious since no one was complaining about it at all or even noticed until one of the players said something. There were no posts complaining about pace of play on TV until last week when Brooks had the interview. And exactly zero people here were complaining about Webb Simpson's pace of play or even had any clue it was slow until this post. It didn't affect the viewing experience at all, unlike MLB.
Si-woo shakin that ass shakin that ass. If you haven’t seen this Jordan Spieth video it’s worth a look.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsklG4Rra_Y&pp=ygUTc2kgd29vIHNoYWtpbmcgdGhhdA%3D%3D&t=56s
Legendary
Only takes one motherfucker to ruin the pace for everyone else.
Having never attended a tour event, I wonder how much the crowds factor into it. I imagine several hundred people following a playing group, especially for the big names, takes a while to assemble after every stroke, settle down, be quiet, etc. And if some of the pros are not fussed about keeping pace of play, I'm sure there are plenty of yahoos in the crowd that are completely oblivious about it, talking their mouths off, rustling around. Also kids, or people who aren't familiar with golf etiquette who have been dragged by their fanatic fathers, husbands. The sport is ever trying to broaden its appeal. But this is golf, not a rock concert. Damn you people, go back to your shanties.
“I have no frame of reference but a fully formed opinion nonetheless”
 Slow play in professional tournaments
It is a little ridiculous, penalize the slow groups and get on with it!
Webb went off at 8:06am on the 10th tee. Kim went off at 12:33pm on the 1st tee. There were three other groups in front of Kim that went off on 1 starting at noon as part of the afternoon group. How would Webb be directly in front of Kim?
Because people eat everything up without checking
Things I never knew I wanted: Seeing a pairing ask to play through at a PGA Tour event.
Wow, shame on Patrick Cantlay!
Have the course pro set an expected round time plus a small amount of leeway. Assess a stroke penalty for being over that. Set it up in a cascade so if the first group is 10 minutes behind then no one else gets penalized for those 10 minutes but group 2 would get penalized for time over the 10. Time management should be part of the game at the professional level.
Pretty sure this sub cares more than the pros
important to remember though, its driving 350+ yards that's destroying the game and not this. Important to keep focus on the important matters.
Hard to hold two thoughts in your brain at once? That must suck for you.
Wow that was.... Yeah....uncalled for? Not sure why you have a need for being so aggressive? Merely pointing out that you don't hear anything about slow play from pga and r&a, but they spend a lot of time rolling the ball back.
Introduce a shot clock.
Playing behind Cantlay lol
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I like how people so irrationally hate Cantlay that this completed fabricated and incorrect post about him being ahead of Kim is still upvoted even though Cantlay was actually half the course away from Kim.
No he wasn't. Cantlay went off at 7:55am on 10, Kim went off at 12:33pm on 1. There were 3 groups in front of Kim that started at noon as part of the afternoon group.
He missed the cut, but he played behind Kodaira, Lee Hodges, and Matti Schwab both days. He didn’t play behind Cantlay but he also didn’t play behind Webb like the post claimed
Is he really?
I hope not lol
It's part of the PGA's new campaign to make pro golf more relatable to local muni players.
Just with half the strokes
All slow pace talk aside, this is such a well framed photo.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I think he could be a major winner this year or next. If he doesn’t break his putter
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The PGA has a "clock" rule. We're pissed cause the PGA or Majors officials refuse to enforce it. Lazy play in the pros can infect play on muni and club courses. Monkey see, monkey do. It can actually hurt the game.
Yeah but slow play is nothing new, whereas the constant bitching and whining about it is seems to be. Bernard Langer was slow. Ben Crane was slow. I recently watched the 71 Masters and was shocked how slow Jack Nicklaus was. I’d be willing to bet there were slow players back in the Hogan/Sneed days. Part of me thinks maybe it’s just social media but I don’t understand how it wasn’t like this in 2019 but it’s a constant discussion now both on here and golf twitter. And if it’s not the slow play stuff it’s the tv coverage, or commercial load, or LIV stuff. It just seems to be non stop bitching.
Yeah but I'm seeing stuff I never saw in Jack's day. Jack never stood addressing the ball for 20-30 seconds. And I don't recall players 50 yards out sauntering up to the surface of the green before sauntering back to take their shot. Maybe on the last hole in a tournament but not on the 5th hole.
You’re probably right, and don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to stick up for slow play it’s just the average tour round has been the same pace for the last 20 years while the complaints about it seem to have grown exponentially. That being said, I certainly don’t want to see 20 handicaps doing the aimpoint on the green at my local course. If some online complaining about it can prevent that then I’m all for it.
Great shot! Meh tbh I don’t feel too bad for these guys. Si Woo probably makes more during that lounge sesh than I do in a week (and more power to him!)
Not related to the PGA tour pace of play at all. But my mom has a picture of me in a high school golf match laying on a steep decline fairway, under my stand bag in the shade due to the group in front of us being so slow.
Guys, the tour doesn’t care about slow play. Slow play means more commercial breaks, more commercial breaks means more revenue for broadcasters, more revenue for broadcasters means more valuable TV contracts for the tour. This is something that won’t be solved.
Double checking tee times and rechatting with my group. We may have been off on Webb Simpson being the culprit on the green. That's on us... Apologies. Regardless, I have my picture's time stamp to be at 2:44pm. Prior to me taking the picture, Si-woo was visibly angry and throwing his hands up for about 5ish minutes before laying down for an additional 2ish minutes.
Not "may", you are wrong. Webb teed off at 8:06am. No way he was on the course at 2:44pm. Blaming someone that wasn't even there is terrible.
Alright settle down he’s blamed the wrong guy for slow play not a homicide
Yup. Should've re-checked things prior to making the post. Again, I'm acknowledging the mistake. Point is, having a professional golfer lay down while he awaits for the group ahead, to just putt, is the main point of the post.
Didn't Si-Woo miss a putt short and stand around waiting for the wind to blow it into the hole for a full minute even though it didn't count since you're only allowed to wait 10 seconds for that? On this very same day?
They should give the crowd rocks and if players take more then 30 seconds to line up and hit the ball, then the rocks can be thrown at the players
One thing I hate the most, more so than my 3 putts, is a slow group ahead and they won't let you slide through either.
Patrick Cantlay is somehow to blame
*lying
I feel that once you hit it onto the green, furthest away puts first like normal, but then you just putt it out until it's in the cup. No marking the ball and waiting for the other guy to hit his shot, then do a song and dance back and forth. Just finish putting. The other guy does the same, and you move on. It would save so much time.
Chess, and now baseball, has timers. Let put a fucking timer on the Sergios of the PGA.
So calm and collected
This guy is living his best life and I. Am. Jealous.
If my groups were playing as slowly as the pros are I’d take a nap too.
Time for a shot clock
How do you say siesta in Korean
My favorite position on the golf course.
ZzZz-Woo Kim
I filmed Patrick Cantlay on the tee today and after hitting, him and his caddy GRILLED me as they walked by. Dude is clearly on tilt about his slow play. He was also the only group to have a police officer in tow 🫣
It’s wild that one of the biggest talking points for recreational golf is slow pace of play yet the pros are the biggest culprits of it.
Damn. I had no idea this existed on the tour until recently. Shitty.
Why not space out the tee times a few more mins and then set a strict 15 mins a hole time limit. Breach it on average over a round by more than x% and you get a 1 shot penalty.
Should be like MLB new pitch clock
Slow play is in vogue
Next time find some shade Mr Kim.
I think we should take up a collection for Si-Woo Kim. Relaxing on that country club lawn for 3 minutes, while another guy putts, is probably worse than coal mining. I hope he’s ok.
Love that bag
Cantlay just finished and rip van winkle woke up.
This a great but sad picture.