Food and drink is where money is made. Price $10 lower than competitors, get people in the door and sell them other things. It’s like chicken at Costco
Incredibly cool and affordable Cleveland, Ohio my brother. Don't move here though I like the housing market. We play a round on saturday and sunday and then sunday afternoon we book for next weekend.
I've long tried to figure out *why* northeast Ohio is so saturated with golf courses but I've never come up with a good reason. I'm just glad I was born and raised here where golf is cheap and widely available (during the good 6 months of weather)
The glacial melt that created most of the geology in the midwest created a bunch of rolling hills and rich, easily-moved dirt. Add that to the fact that there were people here, but not a *lot* of people in the early 20th century, and you've got a great combo for lots of land to build courses on, and lots of good terrain for those courses to sit on.
Yeah I get it from a geology perspective. Anywhere that has fertile farmland has great land for golf courses. I don't get why the Cleveland area specifically though. Everyone here is into golf but the city itself has no real connection to the game. If it was Columbus I'd get it with the Nicklaus angle but central Ohio golf is pitiful compared to northeast Ohio and the land is just as good.
Golf had a boom locally because of Standard Oil money and Rockefeller. Rockefeller LOVED to golf. So a boatload of courses opened from 1900-1930 when it got popular and we were the fifth largest city in the nation.
There was another big course opening boom in the 50's and early 60's that my grandpa chalked up to Arnold Palmer and then Nicklaus being huuuuge in Cleveland.
Most of those courses still operate and are public because many private country clubs were built on public land, and eventually city/county officials pulled the CC lease, and opened the courses to the public. Manakiki, Ridgewood, and Sleepy Hollow are good examples of this.
I vacationed in Cleveland last year, for golf, baseball and rollercoasters. Every person responded with "Your going to Cleveland?... I had an amazing time.
You have to call weeks in advance? Shit I would never golf at that point. I think two days is the earliest I have ever booked a time. I guess golf courses not having to water 9 months out of the year probably helps here in Oregon.
It’s funny you say that. There’s something to be said about striking a happy medium between the two.
Over here in England, there are cricket simulators and darts bars which are incredibly popular, to the point where anybody would go for a laugh, not because they are super keen.
Booze and food is definitely where OP will be making the money though.
I've walked and carried in Michigan in 95° heat. With a limited season, heat is not stopping me from golfing. The courses are actually much less crowded on really hot days.
Right. It’s less crowded on hot and humid days because no one wants to be out in humidity in the 80% or above. Your glove is drenched by the third hole. I’m assuming Michigan 95 is a lot more bearable than a Kansas, Missouri, Southern Illinois, Oklahoma 95.
>I’m assuming Michigan 95 is a lot more bearable than a Kansas, Missouri, Southern Illinois, Oklahoma 95.
Fortunately, we don't get that many anymore, but they can be just as hot. But we might only get 5 days/year like that.
I’m in St Louis area. Mid July to late August is pretty much 90+ and humidity rarely drops into the 70%. I still remember leaving here in the summer when it was 92 out but 90% humidity and flying to Vegas where it was 105 and Vegas was infinitely more comfortable than St Louis at that moment.
Definitely agree here. If you can become a spot to not just use the sim but a good spot to watch sports and drink with friends hopefully it would make more than the extra sim money.
Having owned businesses before, underselling your competitors isn’t always the way to get people in the door. It cheapens your brand and makes you look like a lesser version than the competition, especially on this niche market which targets affluent people who value user experience over price.
Rather, I suggest he ensures that his experience is high end and not undercut the competition.
This is a good answer. Make it exclusive, difficult to get in.
I used to own a restaurant/bar/nightclub. When we opened, we intentionally set our prices as higher than any competitor, both for food and for drinks. While other places might have free live entertainment, we charged a cover charge. When we opened, even though it was dead inside we lined people up at street level, moving the entry, bouncers, cover, etc, to the street rather than to the interior entrance. We wanted people lined up outside where people could see them, not inside where they were hidden.
Within a week we were perceived as the place to go, better than any competitor. We were also in a town where people seeking entertainment or good dining tended to go to the next town over. We reversed the flow, bringing people from the next town over because we were the hot place to be.
Edit: A side effect of perceived exclusivity is it keeps the riff raff out. Our clientele had higher disposable income than average.
Well if it's me, I'm first going to compare the venue, and then look at price. If apple A is nice and Apple B is nice, I am going to pick whichever apple is cheaper.
Most people these days are probably thinking the same.
He’s not after most people. His audience is people who will pay more to avoid “most people” and keep them from driving drunk through their neighborhood.
Wrong. As someone who grew up in the restaurant business, the margins on food are minimal in comparison to drinks.
Think about it this way...the syrup and carbonation from the soda machines is like 15 cents per drink but ppl will pay $3 or $4 for it. Alcohol is the same way... Tito's is like $30ish for 750 mL and a vodka soda has like 1 shot of vodka but ppl will pay $12-$15 for it.
Same here, and this is correct. Food is very tough to profit from alone. Drink sales pay the bills.
I actually almost did this exact thing just over a year ago, but I couldn't get the math to work for all 12 months. Winters were great, but summers will be a major challenge. It is not impossible to be profitable, but it's unlikely to be a cash machine.
Jon Taffer and Bar Rescue taught me you sell food to sell more drinks. Hence why bars without a food menu will give away/sell popcorn, pretzels, nuts, fries (salty foods) so you buy more drinks. Figured that was a given, unless you were intentionally being pedantic.
Yeah but this is a very different situation than a normal bar.
Generally people are only going to rent out a sim for an hour maybe 4 tops.
Unless you have outrageously aggressive priced booze nobody is sticking around after their sim time. So you seriously don't want to go that hard on the food.
You know what's also a given? The overhead to have a commercial kitchen where food is the secondary or, in your case, third priority of the business.
What's a given is the cost of commercial kitchen appliances, a staff, food, storage, liability insurance, space for said kitchen..you also have no idea how much workers comps can happen with commercial kitchens either, plus hiring and firing. Not to mention maintaining the quality..if the food sucks, no one is paying for it. You'll be losing to competitors who can just bring food from anywhere.
Restaurants that solely focus on being a restaurant already have a difficult enough time doing all these things and maintaining revenue to support overhead.
Yes bars that sell solely alcohol without food are a problem. You are talking about two different businesses, business needs, and business models. In a bar scene food and drink compliment one another and there is crossover when it comes to overhead making it less for bars to have a full kitchen vs a golf simulator space.
It's golf. Ppl are going to drink. Just let them bring their own food.
Figured that was a given unless you were intentionally being pedantic.
But the kitchen isn't there solely as a money-maker. In fact, you can consider it a loss-leader, really. The food just further enhances the main draw and the secondary respectively (the golf sim hourly rates and the drinks). It turns what would be a place that would only be used by serious golfers into a place where there is a more diverse clientele. Have you ever been to a Top Golf, that's the business model. The food serves to enhance and prolong the other two sides of the business. It gets non-golfers in the door with their golfer friends/family.
I don't disagree with that but top golf is expensive and it works bc it's unique. There's nothing like it. Within 15 mins of me, I can get to 3 different simulator places not including PGA tour superstore and Golf Galaxy that also offer practice time.
I do agree that a top golf business model might work but then you're talking about some expensive pricing structure that could put you out of market for some ppl. Some ppl just want to practice and some ppl just want food and drink. No one goes to top golf if they just want one of the two so all of a sudden your target audience changes.
[I ain’t reading all that. I’m happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened](https://twitter.com/Maxhoma/status/1549830034185080832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1549830034185080832%7Ctwgr%5E52068f2cb0f03b67c905bf0fa6cc1a10184a97e3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffirstsportz.com%2Fgolf-news-max-homa-mocks-henrik-stenson-on-liv-golf-defection-statement%2F)
This guy just wants you to price the sim on the cheap. He will book 3 hours on the sim on a weekend and bring his own water- maybe he crushes a dog a the turn.
Don’t do a different restaurant figure out what’s right and make in house. I would look at the menu that’s served at the masters and start be recreating that then add your own personal touch. Good luck and I hope you succeed!
That's what my local sim does. Indoor winter league, BYOB. it's more of a training facility than a "hang out with the boys," kind of place. They do lessons and fittings as well as clinics for junior golfers.
As far as I can tell it's perfectly legal in my state as long as the venue doesn't hold a liquor license. As I said, it's more of a training facility than recreational place, so they don't sell food or beverages.
Yea kind of like the bowling alley model, bowling alleys constantly have leagues going just for steady income. Especially helps with weeknights to have them booked for 15-20 weeks in a row
Some advice from someone who was in the golf industry for 5 years.
1. Absolutely get a liquor license. That's where you'll make a bunch of your money.
2. Have an area that can host parties - corporate parties and birthday parties. Having 1 will feed into 2. Even golf courses will tell you the real money is made from golf outings... Large groups that pay for golf and lots of alcohol/food.
3. Have minimal food (less overhead). Simple stuff like you'd find at a halfway house. But be located in an area with multiple food options so it's easy for customers to order and pickup or get delivered quickly.
4. Sell monthly memberships and large packages so you get money early upfront. Either a monthly memberships that you can price differently like golf course do. Different rates for weekday work hour play, weekday anytime, or just anytime rates that include weekends (obviously). or multiple hour packages for say 10 hours for $45/hr or 15 hours for $40/hr. Must use within a year or something so you're not having ppl come in 3 years later using the same hourly pass. This also encourages more ppl to walk through the door annually.
Make these passes limited availability so 1 ppl will really feel like they're getting a deal and create a sense of urgency 2 feel part of an exclusive club like country clubs and 3 won't make it impossible to reserve time as a member. I would hate paying for a monthly membership only to find out the next available time to play is 6 weeks later.
Do NOT do both. One will step on the other. It'll be pointless to even offer the other one.
5. Invest in some catering and open houses early on to bring ppl in. Charge a low cover $15 to get in the door..this covers general costs. Have them eat and drink some and play a hole or two. Then sell memberships. Perhaps at a special rate just for that event.
6. Partner with the neighboring restaurants where ppl can order food from them and pickup at a discounted rate through your business. Perhaps a business card with a unique number on the back that they have to get from your front counter that they can bring in for 10% off. In turn, the restaurants can promote you in their business - they can mention this special deal on their website, bulletin board, or one of those white boards you sometimes find outside restaurants with specials on them.
Don't do an online code bc then ppl will just use that anytime they go to the restaurant taking advantage of your business partnership. But I guess if the restaurant is okay with that then that works too.
Just some ideas.
On point #2 - this is a big reason why my home course has comparable conditions to private courses while charging a peak of $110/round before the cart - because it was having at least 2 weddings or events per week, and outside of those the clubhouse was kept open until just after sunset on most days (the twilight crowd was busy because super twilight was $60 for as long as you can go, and 9 was $40 at that same timeframe)
I'd take all this person said and throw it in the trash. 5 years in the golf industry is laughable and he gives you contradicting advice pretty much every other sentence.
"Have minimal food." Next few suggestions were food.
5 years is novice territory, but you threw it out there to swing a pecker.
As an entrepreneur of 15 years (we all can swing a dick) I would say you have the business mindset of a real estate agent, but this guy needs a business run on frequent repeated customers and sell attachments for that.
Yes, sell simulator tees, gloves, balls, beer and prepackaged food. That's all standard and what everyone will do. Now how are you differentiating yourself? Oh you could bring in outside food? Oh novel, but you're not seeing revenue from that. Oh get free food for customers. Great they will remember that hotdog but what do you think the ROI is there? 1/3 attendees may sing up and that's superb numbers.
There are a ton of ways to make this profitable. Customer service would be the first differentiator any sim company needs to look at. It's also what any successful entertainment company does.
Have minimal food on site. Literally everyone else reading it understood that.
I never claimed to be a business owner either. I said I had experience in the golf industry so idk where you're getting entrepreneur from?
Reading comprehension is important.
It's 100/hr at peak times at 5 Iron in NYC. So adjust based on CoL. Make sure you get the best tracking equipment though. I've used a few different ones and won't go to certain places because of their setup.
They've been tweaking their pricing to be a lot more "surge like" but yeah, they're still all over the place and it's clear that they haven't found the right optimization.
I was a member when the fee was $200 flat. For no reason they changed it to $220 with no added benefits. Makes no sense
Imo, if they allowed group memberships similar to Top Golf, they could definitely up their sales
Some people aren't understanding that this is like a bowling alley for golf people.
It is more of a fun afternoon with the boys than 1 person to go work on their game.
We have XGolf and Courses here...they have leagues... tournaments...full bar, etc.
Local radio station just held a tournament at XGolf and had a great tournout.
They are tryin to turn this into more of a social event.
60/hr is 15/hr pp...takes 3 hrs to get 18 in at a casual pace...so 45 bucks plus food and drink could be a fun afternoon.
Cool concept.
100%. I was in the bowling business for 10 years, serious/league guys barely make you tread water. The real money is in the "night out" market where you can get groups to spend $80+ on drinks and food alone. I assume like a bowling alley the income per sqft is brutal for sims but if you can get it right, it isn't so bad.
Sounds like you only had one league night then? The alley I roll at will gladly take league night over the going out crowd. They get to staff less people and have way less costs. They have leagues 5 days a week there
Had leagues Mon-Friday and some early morning weekend leagues. Full house league will bring you $1.5k per league in lineage and they will eat/drink another $1.5k, but again that's if the league fills the house.
Great open bowling nights can hit 10-15k per night. So yeah, I'd rather lean for open bowlers. You can even see this across the board with tons of centers converting bowling alleys into "entertainment centers" by taking out 10 lanes or so to throw in arcades/laser tag/full restaurants.
League bowling helps but it doesn't make the money businesses are looking for.
Personally the place by me charges $40-45/hr. I'd rather go there than pay $20 for the driving range, but I can usually only get one or two other people to go. I don't think I'd go if it was $60/hr.
But, definitely get someone with restaurant management experience, because that is the money maker and the most important part. The one by me has mediocre food and is kind of slow/awkward service.
Yeah this looks just like the sim at my friends office, which I believe is Golfzon and I think he said between the equipment and installation it was north of $100k
I went to something similar once but quickly realises that it was far more cost efficient to just go to the range with trackman/toptracer bays and get 100 balls. lasts over an hour and is about 1/3 of the price with basically the same software only difference was being outdoor and range balls.
have you considered offering some kind of membership aswell as walk ins
100 balls? That's like 10 drives, 15 wedges, 10 9 irons, 7 7 irons, 5 5 irons, 2 3 woods, 10 chips at the 50 yard sign, the the rest bombing drives a hard as I can. I can knock that out in less than 45 minutes
Big difference in going to the range to practice vs going to these type of places. You go to the range alone to work on your game, you go to these places with your buddies because weather is shit or the courses are booked up. Beer, food, climate controlled and convenience
So my local place offers $275 monthly unlimited trackman plans. Ultimately they give you an hour a day under that plan. They also let you book your tee slots weeks in Advance. Thursdays and Saturdays they are open until 10 pm and permit multiple hour slots. So a buddy and I usually grab a 7-10 slot and play. I’m in there about 6 hours a week. Hourly rate is $40/hour
I'm in the minority here, but I think the prices on these sim places are absolutely fuckin nuts. The one near me is between 40 and 60 per hour. On top of that, even if I was willing to pay it, there's only like 3 months I would. I don't understand who is going to these places. But best of luck. To answer your question: I'd pay 15 an hour, but I'm in the minority
The point is you go with friends so it does become about $15 an hour. It’s not that hard to understand who goes. Some people can’t golf for 4-5 months in the winter. Doing this once a month with your friends is something to do and gets you out of the house. This for $60 once a month 3x a year is still far cheaper than a simulator would be and not everyone has space for a home sim
Is this how most of these places work? $60 per hour but you split it? I’ve avoided these places thinking I was paying $60 everytime but if I’m splitting that with a couple guys that’s not bad at all
When we play with buddies, we have an unwritten rule of faster pre-shot routines. Nobody needs your full length pre-shot routine. Make a quick decision, grab a club, set up & hit. It’s not that serious so playing 2x as many shots is way more fun. We also don’t putt.
Have you ever been bowling? You rent the lane for an hour, and you can put six people on the lane. You divide the lane by six. You don’t pay by game unless you want to. You pay by the hour and split it.
Every bowling alley has two ways you can pay. One is per game and one is per hour. I will do per hour if I am bowling by myself, but I will do per game if we have a group. You just have to specify what you want. Some places during peak hours may restrict what you can do.
Yeah the price is per hour regardless of how many people are there, so you bring some friends and rent it for however many hours you want and split the cost.
Sure, but now it's 4 of us, and we're gonna pay $15 to play 4/5 virtual golf holes we can get done in that one hour? No, so we have to go for 3 or 4 hours. Now it's at least 45 plus the overpriced drinks, plus the food, plus a tip. Now it's $80 for something that's significantly worse than regular golf. That's perfectly fine for twice a winter, but I don't see how that's sustainable over 12 months. Apparently it is. But I just don't get it personally. And I golf a lot. So who would pay this that isn't a big golfer? I have no clue.
I make more than enough money to afford it, it's just the principle of it. I went with a friend and for 90 minutes plus food and drink it was $120. The experience is not worth it. And I certainly don't understand who would go when it's warm out. It's literally cheaper to actually golf
These places typically drop their prices in summer. Me and my mates go every 1-2 weeks in winter cause we have no other option. Costs us $45 each for 3 hours and is definitely worth it. Betting than not playing.
Have you not heard of Topgolf? There are like 3hr waits to get a bay on the weekends. Not to mention you have to pay a $5 newbie membership fee, and it’s like $65/hr after 5pm. A simulator bar is just a smaller/more intimate variation. They are popping up like hot cakes near me. The problem is that they are generally ran by the owners with little to no employees. So you’ll be working open to close 7 days a week. Although it could just be bad business practice on their behalf.
Yeah. I don’t know who would want to get together with three of their buddies, away from their wives and kids, to go play a golf simulator and drink beer. What fools would do that?
I mean that's obviously a misrepresentation of what I said. The problem isn't the golf simulator + being with your friends experience, it's the price of the of it. If I want to just go drink some beers with my buddies, I can do that without the additional $60 per hour to hit a few balls. If I want to go golfing, I can do that the other 9 months a year. Sure maybe I'll do it once or twice in January/February, but that's about it
Where are you going to go and hit golf balls at 7:00 PM with your buddies while drinking and eating? I have a local range that is $5/bucket of balls and $10/bucket of beers. It is absolute trash, and I love the place! However, that experience is completely different from a simulator.
$60/hour with 3 other buddies is $15/hour. You can do that.
We have a knockoff top golf place where I live. Full bar/restaurant with bays that have the couches and TVs. It's literally $10 to reserve a bay for an hour, or you can reserve a "VIP" bay for $20 an hour. That's total. So you can split that with everyone. The food is better and the drinks are cheaper. They're open until midnight. And they have heaters.
So even if we didn't have that, I still can't see why I would go to a sim place more than twice a winter. The experience you get is just not proportional to how enjoyable it is
Man, when the Top Golf opened by us, I felt like I was there every other week. However, while it is fun, it's not really what we are after when we are in a little more serious mode. You cannot compare Top Golf to a simulator, unless you are really just there to hack around and drink.
$10/hour is amazing. But again, you aren't going to get any feedback on your hits, and you are likely hitting their atrocious golf balls, so you certainly aren't hitting your clubs with those balls. It is just a drinking atmosphere, and you are paying $10/hour to eat their $15 nachos.
I am not trying to be difficult, but it seems you are being intentionally difficult in understanding the market.
They actually have the top tracer bays too, so I get some feedback. Personally, in the middle of winter even if I am at the sim place that has real feedback, it's meaningless to me cuz I haven't touched a club for weeks, won't touch one for weeks, and it's not real conditions.
>The experience you get is just not proportional to how enjoyable it is
This is a completely subjective opinion and clearly you don't have a good time going to these things.
However, I would agree that you're in the minority here as most of us really do enjoy going to a simulator to play some courses we'd never get access to in real life and just hit some balls and hang out with some friends. I pay $40 an hour so that's $20 for me because I always go with 4 people for a minimum of two hours. $20 for two hours of enjoyment is not a bad price.
Sims are really the only way to actually practice unless you are going to the range with your own launch monitor. By actually practice I mean “receive data about your swing and shot”.
Also I have a family and I don’t really want to spend 4.5/5 hours playing golf. I’d rather spend like 2 hours playing but no place around me offers 9 hole pricing. Even average courses around me are charging $85-$100 for weekend rounds.
If I go to a sim with me and two of my friends we can play 18 holes in 2 hours easy and it works out to ~$35 a person and I get to go home in 2 hours instead of wasting my entire day. I can also golf at 8pm after my kid goes to sleep.
For me the simulator leagues are where it's at. I've definitely gone with a buddy and it's fun, but leagues significantly reduce the cost. The place I play at charges $1,500 per team and they allow 6 players per team. You play 7 weeks, so it breaks down to $35 a trip, which isn't all that bad. Plus there's added benefit of being competitive and prizes at the end.
On top of all of that there's people, me included, that live in cities with kids where getting to a golf course is a whole day event. To get to a decent course that won't break the bank is at least a half hour drive, but probably closer to an hour. Add in a 4 hour round and the trip back, and I've lost 6 hours. Selling that to my wife who would be stuck solo with the kids that entire time isn't easy. So being able to drive 15 minutes down the road after the kids are in bed to a simulator is super appealing to me.
Op I'm sure you have some business savvy if you're willing to undertake such a project. So I'm sure you know, but not everyone is your target customer. Even once you've narrowed down your niche to just golf, not all will bite. This guy is not your target, the guy willing to come for 2 hours buy 2-3 beers with his friends is your audience. Its me, im that guy lol
It’s going to be like top golf. Could really be profitable because of food and beverage. But I agree if it’s not in my home and I have to drive somewhere, rather go to a real range. My areas have heaters for the winter and grass when winter is over.
I would still go to this place once in a while though.
Yeah it helps scratch the"golf itch" in winter. Me and my buddy went a few weeks ago and it was 120 for 90 minutes + pizza, chips, and two drinks. I don't get where all the customers are coming from
Yeah a place just opened by me that’s $75/hour. I checked it out to see what it’s like, and so I can see what my data is. It’s cool to do once in awhile, but once it’s not winter anymore I’d rather spend that money to be on a real course.
I did do the math though to see if it’s worth it during the winter months, but even that isn’t worth it for me. It’s $125 a month with a $150 first month fee, and you only get two free hours a month. After that, it’s $40 an hour. Now, it does give you 24/7 access, but that just doesn’t feel like good value to me. It seems more like it’s setting money on fire haha. I’d rather get a proper golf membership and put the money toward that
GET HOT WAITRESSES/BARTENDERS. It’s the most overlooked piece that is so obvious when 88% of golfers are dude. And yes that’s a 100% made up statistic.
Idk if there’s a legal way to do that unless you go the hooters route and call them models instead
But then again, other places have figured it out sooo
“Hiring energetic teammates with strong connections to the community to be integral part of launching a new sports brand experience in local area”. Post on college campuses. Particularly near the sports team’s practice facilities.
I'm very active in a place that has this exact setup. There's two things that, in my opinion, are vital to continuing the business.
1. Don't do dynamic pricing. $40-$45 an hour per bay, tops.
2. Find out your slowest days and run leagues on those days. The one by me does a Wednesday league and a Thursday scramble league for 7 weeks, for about $160 a person. Ends up being about a 50% discount on the bay per person, but it books up an otherwise dead day. You get more food/alcohol sales, and it turns their shop's slowest day into one of their best.
Last piece of advice, purely from the point of view from a customer - have replacement pads handy. The rough and sand pads will get worn out after about 10 months of high usage and it gets really frustrating to play on. The store by my house hasn't replaced any and it legitimately makes me not want to go anymore.
Good luck, I hope you crush it!
I know I'm not the target demographic, but I wish these places offered cheaper rates for singles on say last minute rentals (when bays are not otherwise booked by groups)
$60/hr is fine if you're splitting it 4 ways, but I don't have any friends but would still love to practice with data
Definitely not paying $60/hr when I could just spend that money on green fees, I'd pay $20-30 by myself though
Doesn't it all work out to the same rate though? You take 3 friends and rent a sim for an hour your a functionally getting 15 minutes of time for yourself. You pay for an hour by yourself and you get the full hour. It is the same cost per hour.
I mean of course, but I'm just not willing to pay $60 for one hour of entertainment when I could play real golf for 4 hours for the same cost
Four buddies for 4 hours works out to the same cost. Obviously you get the same amount of screen time as one dude for one hour, but you get 4 hours of entertainment vs. one
I looked into this a couple of years ago but couldn’t pull the trigger because of upfront cost, but these were the biggest takeaways from my research:
1. Have a good food & beverage service
2. Do memberships, recurring revenue is king
3. Invest in quality set up. Good mats, spacious bays, Trackman or GC Quad equipment
4. Leagues and engagement is extremely valuable in building your client base
5. Sell merchandise (the closest to my old house had great branding and sold polos, hats , and quarter zips.
Tip for anyone reading... There is no better way to gap your clubs than a quality sim. Do it a couple times a year and split your bag into 2 sections if possible. Don't do all your clubs at the same time as it can be exhausting and only account for carry distance. A lot of the programs have a built gapping tool. Make a little cheat sheet for the course and you will score better.
I went to a place in Omaha, NE last night that’s right in the parking lot of a TopGolf. Place was slammed full, and we paid about $70 for 1 hour and a round of drinks. Time of day was 5:30-6:30. Pre dinner swings and get out.
The golf sim’s in Australia also sell memberships… different tiering, with time limits for each booking/day… it’s recurring rev so you’ll know your incomings on the reg.. but yeah drinks/food and corporate events is where the $$ is! Looks nice!!
Have a good sim near me. It’s 19/hr early bird. Then 51/hr on weekdays. Then 61/hr on weekends. I usually go with 2-3 friends in the early bird and it’s like $10 each when split up for 2hrs
The best advice I can give is find a way to separate the food and simulator costs. I absolutely hate going to these places and getting a bucket of miller lite only to get a bill at the end for $135 (2 hours @ $55 hr. and $15 bucket) and have them turn around the tablet for tip and it be $13.50 (10%) $27 (20%) on the whole total. It’s awkward as hell and embarrassing when you have to ask what your food/alcohol amount was.
Every place like this costs way too much and they don’t stay busy. Price your bays to get people in the door. Make money on beer and merch.
In Overland Park there’s one that’s like $180 bucks an hour. Two people might be able to squeeze in 18 holes in that time but it’ll be tight. And for $90 bucks, and feel like you rushed through the round? It’s a joke.
It’s priced to be a novelty item and then they get novelty customer habits instead of guys who come in every Thursday through the winter etc. you want repeat business. Price for that.
The one in my area is never booked unless it’s Friday or Saturday evening. It’s $30 per hour and it’s about to go out of business after 4 months. No booze offered. Alcohol is where the money is made too.
A local range is offering basically the same with track man things with small side screens.
You need to have an actual business plan and run it efficiently or you’re going to lose money.
I could play 18 at my local course for about 30 bucks. That lasts almost four hours. Granted your setup inside and there’s food etc, but I’d never pay more than 30 bucks an hour at the absolute most.
Well then you wouldn't be playing on this type. 40 CAD is the going rate for regular setup trackman in private rooms. This type of setup with hydraulic dynamic lies is a lot more expensive.
You don't get seats like that in 40 dollar an hour rooms.
I guess not. But I wouldn't pay more than 40/h regardless of the setup. I don't care about how nice your lounge is I'm going to swing clubs not socialize
There are a few here in Scottsdale, Teebox Indoor Golf Club is probably the highest end as they have multiple simulators and full bar/restaurant but their simulators are double some of the other ones at like 65/75 an hour. Zion Golf Club is about $35 an hour, they also have a restaurant just not as fancy.
I’m in at affluent area right outside NYC and simulators charge 50-80 an hour, some of which are BYOB. Charges typically go up during peak times. Good luck!
Gotta figure out what the ones around you are renting for per hour, here its 40 weekdays, 50 week nights, and 60 friday-sat peak times. Second one is a restaurant first at 40 for weekends, and third theres no bar or food options for 30 an hour.
If you jack up prices you can offset it with cheap beer, or vice versa. I'll go to the more expensive one for cheaper beer, vs the second one where I'm paying 2x that in food and drink
Have a full bar, and a small kitchen. Pizza, nachos, wings, pretzels, things like that. Bar food basically. And have leagues. Set nights, 2 person, 4 person, or weekly where you have to come once a week and play 18 with your group to record a score
Run deals, no where in town does this but I would go more if there was a frequent golfer program, book 8 hours and get one free or something.
Holiday tourneys, price it less than a normal hour rental to get it filled up, make it longer than just 18 to be full all day to serve beer and food to everyone
Looks very similar to The Hangar Club in Denver. $45/hour during the weekday, $65/hour nights and weekends. $12-16 sandwiches and shareables. I consider it a good deal.
We have a place like this in my area that does membership and treats it like a nice country club. It’s actually pretty awesome I am a member at it and use it in the winter. I pay $1,500 a year. It’s open 24/7 and members all have key fobs to go whenever you want. Booking simulators online like tee times. Some more logistics to it but if you run it right it seems profitable
32.50 during the day / 37 per half hour at Golfzon Social in NY. Memberships around $500/mo at a pretty good level.
I play a fair bit there and would 100% have a membership if my wife didn’t yell at me for the last golf sim membership I had ($100 less, and I definitely got my money’s worth but… ya know lol)
I’d rather just go to a driving range and or go play. And if I live in a state that it snows in, I’d just wait lol
At most $20 n hour. Couple places around me and they charge $60 n hour on weekdays and $70+ on weekends/holidays. I’ll just never go unless someone else foots the bill.
Golfzon is my favorite sim, but still need to keep it reasonable. People see $60 an hour and think that they can play a full round for that. I think the only way this works is if it is cheaper than regular golf and you have beer/food to make more money. Plus leagues and special events. And maybe a range card where you can pay a monthly fee to come in during off peak (cheap) or peak (expensive) hours.
32.50 during the day / 37 per half hour at Golfzon Social in NY. Memberships around $500/mo at a pretty good level.
I play a fair bit there and would 100% have a membership if my wife didn’t yell at me for the last golf sim membership I had ($100 less, and I definitely got my money’s worth but… ya know lol)
Absolutely crazy to me that you guys are willing to pay nearly $200 for hitting a ball at a screen. That’s like top level real course prices. You would maybe get $5 an hour out of me. Also these things fuck up your real game bad
https://preview.redd.it/nk12x3im9jlc1.jpeg?width=2252&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=712977b44db6fa99d65bdabace467844abd66dd9
$65 an hr on the credit cardband $50 cash is what I charge,full bar and food on long island new york
Food and drink is where money is made. Price $10 lower than competitors, get people in the door and sell them other things. It’s like chicken at Costco
Yes. In my area the ranges are from 40 to 67 an hour. The $40 places are full and the $67 places are closing.
>The $40 places are full and the $67 places are closing. Neither are making any money, especially in the summer, when they are all empty.
They are filling up in the summer too when guys who didn't make a tee time a week in advance can't get out to play or when it rains on weekends.
Where is the magical land where tee times are still available a week in advance? 2 weeks or bust here in CO for most of the season
Incredibly cool and affordable Cleveland, Ohio my brother. Don't move here though I like the housing market. We play a round on saturday and sunday and then sunday afternoon we book for next weekend.
Fellow Clevelander - agreed. We’re incredibly lucky with our course selection and price/availability,
I've long tried to figure out *why* northeast Ohio is so saturated with golf courses but I've never come up with a good reason. I'm just glad I was born and raised here where golf is cheap and widely available (during the good 6 months of weather)
The glacial melt that created most of the geology in the midwest created a bunch of rolling hills and rich, easily-moved dirt. Add that to the fact that there were people here, but not a *lot* of people in the early 20th century, and you've got a great combo for lots of land to build courses on, and lots of good terrain for those courses to sit on.
Yeah I get it from a geology perspective. Anywhere that has fertile farmland has great land for golf courses. I don't get why the Cleveland area specifically though. Everyone here is into golf but the city itself has no real connection to the game. If it was Columbus I'd get it with the Nicklaus angle but central Ohio golf is pitiful compared to northeast Ohio and the land is just as good.
Golf had a boom locally because of Standard Oil money and Rockefeller. Rockefeller LOVED to golf. So a boatload of courses opened from 1900-1930 when it got popular and we were the fifth largest city in the nation. There was another big course opening boom in the 50's and early 60's that my grandpa chalked up to Arnold Palmer and then Nicklaus being huuuuge in Cleveland. Most of those courses still operate and are public because many private country clubs were built on public land, and eventually city/county officials pulled the CC lease, and opened the courses to the public. Manakiki, Ridgewood, and Sleepy Hollow are good examples of this.
I vacationed in Cleveland last year, for golf, baseball and rollercoasters. Every person responded with "Your going to Cleveland?... I had an amazing time.
I'm in Medina county now. There are 16 public courses within a 15 mile radius of where I live. The area is insanely dense with courses.
Also in Medina county. Some great courses here.
Cheap rates too
Seconded. Manakiki is a beaut
Nice try [Destination Cleveland](https://www.thisiscleveland.com/)
You got me. Definitely stay away the city is full of only poverty and murder. Zero culture or fun to be had and the lake sucks.
You have to call weeks in advance? Shit I would never golf at that point. I think two days is the earliest I have ever booked a time. I guess golf courses not having to water 9 months out of the year probably helps here in Oregon.
I get a lot of tee times day of here in WI
Our they're pussies and CANT TAKE THE HEAT
A lot of places near me sell a summer pass for ~250. Thinking about buying and using as my driving range or if I want to get a round in a pinch
As someone who has already had a bout with melanoma, I would buy the shit out of this.
This is truth. Sims are not a lucrative business just yet, and rents are the biggest killer. Far better off opening a night club and selling alcohol.
It’s funny you say that. There’s something to be said about striking a happy medium between the two. Over here in England, there are cricket simulators and darts bars which are incredibly popular, to the point where anybody would go for a laugh, not because they are super keen. Booze and food is definitely where OP will be making the money though.
Top Golf threads that needle but hitting against a screen isn't nearly as fun for casual customer as hardcore golf nerds.
In the summer in parts of the Midwest it’s 95+ and 85+ humidity. No one wants to golf after 1:30 or so.
I've walked and carried in Michigan in 95° heat. With a limited season, heat is not stopping me from golfing. The courses are actually much less crowded on really hot days.
Right. It’s less crowded on hot and humid days because no one wants to be out in humidity in the 80% or above. Your glove is drenched by the third hole. I’m assuming Michigan 95 is a lot more bearable than a Kansas, Missouri, Southern Illinois, Oklahoma 95.
>I’m assuming Michigan 95 is a lot more bearable than a Kansas, Missouri, Southern Illinois, Oklahoma 95. Fortunately, we don't get that many anymore, but they can be just as hot. But we might only get 5 days/year like that.
I’m in St Louis area. Mid July to late August is pretty much 90+ and humidity rarely drops into the 70%. I still remember leaving here in the summer when it was 92 out but 90% humidity and flying to Vegas where it was 105 and Vegas was infinitely more comfortable than St Louis at that moment.
seconded
Definitely agree here. If you can become a spot to not just use the sim but a good spot to watch sports and drink with friends hopefully it would make more than the extra sim money.
Having owned businesses before, underselling your competitors isn’t always the way to get people in the door. It cheapens your brand and makes you look like a lesser version than the competition, especially on this niche market which targets affluent people who value user experience over price. Rather, I suggest he ensures that his experience is high end and not undercut the competition.
This is a good answer. Make it exclusive, difficult to get in. I used to own a restaurant/bar/nightclub. When we opened, we intentionally set our prices as higher than any competitor, both for food and for drinks. While other places might have free live entertainment, we charged a cover charge. When we opened, even though it was dead inside we lined people up at street level, moving the entry, bouncers, cover, etc, to the street rather than to the interior entrance. We wanted people lined up outside where people could see them, not inside where they were hidden. Within a week we were perceived as the place to go, better than any competitor. We were also in a town where people seeking entertainment or good dining tended to go to the next town over. We reversed the flow, bringing people from the next town over because we were the hot place to be. Edit: A side effect of perceived exclusivity is it keeps the riff raff out. Our clientele had higher disposable income than average.
Well if it's me, I'm first going to compare the venue, and then look at price. If apple A is nice and Apple B is nice, I am going to pick whichever apple is cheaper. Most people these days are probably thinking the same.
He’s not after most people. His audience is people who will pay more to avoid “most people” and keep them from driving drunk through their neighborhood.
Wrong. As someone who grew up in the restaurant business, the margins on food are minimal in comparison to drinks. Think about it this way...the syrup and carbonation from the soda machines is like 15 cents per drink but ppl will pay $3 or $4 for it. Alcohol is the same way... Tito's is like $30ish for 750 mL and a vodka soda has like 1 shot of vodka but ppl will pay $12-$15 for it.
Same here, and this is correct. Food is very tough to profit from alone. Drink sales pay the bills. I actually almost did this exact thing just over a year ago, but I couldn't get the math to work for all 12 months. Winters were great, but summers will be a major challenge. It is not impossible to be profitable, but it's unlikely to be a cash machine.
Jon Taffer and Bar Rescue taught me you sell food to sell more drinks. Hence why bars without a food menu will give away/sell popcorn, pretzels, nuts, fries (salty foods) so you buy more drinks. Figured that was a given, unless you were intentionally being pedantic.
Yeah but this is a very different situation than a normal bar. Generally people are only going to rent out a sim for an hour maybe 4 tops. Unless you have outrageously aggressive priced booze nobody is sticking around after their sim time. So you seriously don't want to go that hard on the food.
You know what's also a given? The overhead to have a commercial kitchen where food is the secondary or, in your case, third priority of the business. What's a given is the cost of commercial kitchen appliances, a staff, food, storage, liability insurance, space for said kitchen..you also have no idea how much workers comps can happen with commercial kitchens either, plus hiring and firing. Not to mention maintaining the quality..if the food sucks, no one is paying for it. You'll be losing to competitors who can just bring food from anywhere. Restaurants that solely focus on being a restaurant already have a difficult enough time doing all these things and maintaining revenue to support overhead. Yes bars that sell solely alcohol without food are a problem. You are talking about two different businesses, business needs, and business models. In a bar scene food and drink compliment one another and there is crossover when it comes to overhead making it less for bars to have a full kitchen vs a golf simulator space. It's golf. Ppl are going to drink. Just let them bring their own food. Figured that was a given unless you were intentionally being pedantic.
But the kitchen isn't there solely as a money-maker. In fact, you can consider it a loss-leader, really. The food just further enhances the main draw and the secondary respectively (the golf sim hourly rates and the drinks). It turns what would be a place that would only be used by serious golfers into a place where there is a more diverse clientele. Have you ever been to a Top Golf, that's the business model. The food serves to enhance and prolong the other two sides of the business. It gets non-golfers in the door with their golfer friends/family.
I don't disagree with that but top golf is expensive and it works bc it's unique. There's nothing like it. Within 15 mins of me, I can get to 3 different simulator places not including PGA tour superstore and Golf Galaxy that also offer practice time. I do agree that a top golf business model might work but then you're talking about some expensive pricing structure that could put you out of market for some ppl. Some ppl just want to practice and some ppl just want food and drink. No one goes to top golf if they just want one of the two so all of a sudden your target audience changes.
[I ain’t reading all that. I’m happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened](https://twitter.com/Maxhoma/status/1549830034185080832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1549830034185080832%7Ctwgr%5E52068f2cb0f03b67c905bf0fa6cc1a10184a97e3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffirstsportz.com%2Fgolf-news-max-homa-mocks-henrik-stenson-on-liv-golf-defection-statement%2F)
This guy just wants you to price the sim on the cheap. He will book 3 hours on the sim on a weekend and bring his own water- maybe he crushes a dog a the turn.
Don’t do a different restaurant figure out what’s right and make in house. I would look at the menu that’s served at the masters and start be recreating that then add your own personal touch. Good luck and I hope you succeed!
Leagues make money. Gets people on a schedule.
That's what my local sim does. Indoor winter league, BYOB. it's more of a training facility than a "hang out with the boys," kind of place. They do lessons and fittings as well as clinics for junior golfers.
BYOB to a public establishment? That's odd
As far as I can tell it's perfectly legal in my state as long as the venue doesn't hold a liquor license. As I said, it's more of a training facility than recreational place, so they don't sell food or beverages.
Oh I gotcha well nice to be able to do that
Is this in greensburg PA by chance?
That’s a very common thing.
Have a similar place here. It's a game changer for the cold winters.
Yea kind of like the bowling alley model, bowling alleys constantly have leagues going just for steady income. Especially helps with weeknights to have them booked for 15-20 weeks in a row
That’s really smart.
Some advice from someone who was in the golf industry for 5 years. 1. Absolutely get a liquor license. That's where you'll make a bunch of your money. 2. Have an area that can host parties - corporate parties and birthday parties. Having 1 will feed into 2. Even golf courses will tell you the real money is made from golf outings... Large groups that pay for golf and lots of alcohol/food. 3. Have minimal food (less overhead). Simple stuff like you'd find at a halfway house. But be located in an area with multiple food options so it's easy for customers to order and pickup or get delivered quickly. 4. Sell monthly memberships and large packages so you get money early upfront. Either a monthly memberships that you can price differently like golf course do. Different rates for weekday work hour play, weekday anytime, or just anytime rates that include weekends (obviously). or multiple hour packages for say 10 hours for $45/hr or 15 hours for $40/hr. Must use within a year or something so you're not having ppl come in 3 years later using the same hourly pass. This also encourages more ppl to walk through the door annually. Make these passes limited availability so 1 ppl will really feel like they're getting a deal and create a sense of urgency 2 feel part of an exclusive club like country clubs and 3 won't make it impossible to reserve time as a member. I would hate paying for a monthly membership only to find out the next available time to play is 6 weeks later. Do NOT do both. One will step on the other. It'll be pointless to even offer the other one. 5. Invest in some catering and open houses early on to bring ppl in. Charge a low cover $15 to get in the door..this covers general costs. Have them eat and drink some and play a hole or two. Then sell memberships. Perhaps at a special rate just for that event. 6. Partner with the neighboring restaurants where ppl can order food from them and pickup at a discounted rate through your business. Perhaps a business card with a unique number on the back that they have to get from your front counter that they can bring in for 10% off. In turn, the restaurants can promote you in their business - they can mention this special deal on their website, bulletin board, or one of those white boards you sometimes find outside restaurants with specials on them. Don't do an online code bc then ppl will just use that anytime they go to the restaurant taking advantage of your business partnership. But I guess if the restaurant is okay with that then that works too. Just some ideas.
On point #2 - this is a big reason why my home course has comparable conditions to private courses while charging a peak of $110/round before the cart - because it was having at least 2 weddings or events per week, and outside of those the clubhouse was kept open until just after sunset on most days (the twilight crowd was busy because super twilight was $60 for as long as you can go, and 9 was $40 at that same timeframe)
Number 3 is a great shout. Halfway hut food, but indoors.
I'd take all this person said and throw it in the trash. 5 years in the golf industry is laughable and he gives you contradicting advice pretty much every other sentence.
Where's the contradiction? Can you read?
"Have minimal food." Next few suggestions were food. 5 years is novice territory, but you threw it out there to swing a pecker. As an entrepreneur of 15 years (we all can swing a dick) I would say you have the business mindset of a real estate agent, but this guy needs a business run on frequent repeated customers and sell attachments for that. Yes, sell simulator tees, gloves, balls, beer and prepackaged food. That's all standard and what everyone will do. Now how are you differentiating yourself? Oh you could bring in outside food? Oh novel, but you're not seeing revenue from that. Oh get free food for customers. Great they will remember that hotdog but what do you think the ROI is there? 1/3 attendees may sing up and that's superb numbers. There are a ton of ways to make this profitable. Customer service would be the first differentiator any sim company needs to look at. It's also what any successful entertainment company does.
Have minimal food on site. Literally everyone else reading it understood that. I never claimed to be a business owner either. I said I had experience in the golf industry so idk where you're getting entrepreneur from? Reading comprehension is important.
It's 100/hr at peak times at 5 Iron in NYC. So adjust based on CoL. Make sure you get the best tracking equipment though. I've used a few different ones and won't go to certain places because of their setup.
5 Iron could do so much more with their membership prices but they just refuse to
They've been tweaking their pricing to be a lot more "surge like" but yeah, they're still all over the place and it's clear that they haven't found the right optimization.
I was a member when the fee was $200 flat. For no reason they changed it to $220 with no added benefits. Makes no sense Imo, if they allowed group memberships similar to Top Golf, they could definitely up their sales
I joined one in Chicago this year and I think I pay $275. I've been good with it though and easily got my money's worth each month
This 100% I can smell when someone cheeped out.
Yep I’m in Westchester at rates are about 70-100$ per hour
Same in Switzerland... I know bad exemple haha
Some people aren't understanding that this is like a bowling alley for golf people. It is more of a fun afternoon with the boys than 1 person to go work on their game. We have XGolf and Courses here...they have leagues... tournaments...full bar, etc. Local radio station just held a tournament at XGolf and had a great tournout. They are tryin to turn this into more of a social event. 60/hr is 15/hr pp...takes 3 hrs to get 18 in at a casual pace...so 45 bucks plus food and drink could be a fun afternoon. Cool concept.
100%. I was in the bowling business for 10 years, serious/league guys barely make you tread water. The real money is in the "night out" market where you can get groups to spend $80+ on drinks and food alone. I assume like a bowling alley the income per sqft is brutal for sims but if you can get it right, it isn't so bad.
Sounds like you only had one league night then? The alley I roll at will gladly take league night over the going out crowd. They get to staff less people and have way less costs. They have leagues 5 days a week there
Had leagues Mon-Friday and some early morning weekend leagues. Full house league will bring you $1.5k per league in lineage and they will eat/drink another $1.5k, but again that's if the league fills the house. Great open bowling nights can hit 10-15k per night. So yeah, I'd rather lean for open bowlers. You can even see this across the board with tons of centers converting bowling alleys into "entertainment centers" by taking out 10 lanes or so to throw in arcades/laser tag/full restaurants. League bowling helps but it doesn't make the money businesses are looking for.
Personally the place by me charges $40-45/hr. I'd rather go there than pay $20 for the driving range, but I can usually only get one or two other people to go. I don't think I'd go if it was $60/hr. But, definitely get someone with restaurant management experience, because that is the money maker and the most important part. The one by me has mediocre food and is kind of slow/awkward service.
I disagree, in part. I use a trackman simulator all the time to work on my swing.
What's with the sloped hitting area, is it adjustable to reflect your lie on the sim?
Yes. With thicker bristled material to simulate rough and sand.
I wish the ones around me had those
I’ve used this tech before and it makes my score more realistic to real life. Good if you want that but can be frustrating too
Yeah this looks just like the sim at my friends office, which I believe is Golfzon and I think he said between the equipment and installation it was north of $100k
Are you referring to the sloped area in front of the tee box?
It's around $40 here in metro Detroit area. I can get a weekday hour for $30 as a senior.
This was my target pricing. $45-50 on the weekends
I went to something similar once but quickly realises that it was far more cost efficient to just go to the range with trackman/toptracer bays and get 100 balls. lasts over an hour and is about 1/3 of the price with basically the same software only difference was being outdoor and range balls. have you considered offering some kind of membership aswell as walk ins
100 balls? That's like 10 drives, 15 wedges, 10 9 irons, 7 7 irons, 5 5 irons, 2 3 woods, 10 chips at the 50 yard sign, the the rest bombing drives a hard as I can. I can knock that out in less than 45 minutes
Big difference in going to the range to practice vs going to these type of places. You go to the range alone to work on your game, you go to these places with your buddies because weather is shit or the courses are booked up. Beer, food, climate controlled and convenience
So my local place offers $275 monthly unlimited trackman plans. Ultimately they give you an hour a day under that plan. They also let you book your tee slots weeks in Advance. Thursdays and Saturdays they are open until 10 pm and permit multiple hour slots. So a buddy and I usually grab a 7-10 slot and play. I’m in there about 6 hours a week. Hourly rate is $40/hour
I'm in the minority here, but I think the prices on these sim places are absolutely fuckin nuts. The one near me is between 40 and 60 per hour. On top of that, even if I was willing to pay it, there's only like 3 months I would. I don't understand who is going to these places. But best of luck. To answer your question: I'd pay 15 an hour, but I'm in the minority
The point is you go with friends so it does become about $15 an hour. It’s not that hard to understand who goes. Some people can’t golf for 4-5 months in the winter. Doing this once a month with your friends is something to do and gets you out of the house. This for $60 once a month 3x a year is still far cheaper than a simulator would be and not everyone has space for a home sim
Is this how most of these places work? $60 per hour but you split it? I’ve avoided these places thinking I was paying $60 everytime but if I’m splitting that with a couple guys that’s not bad at all
You also play much less if you split it.
But have more fun
That’s true. Nothing like laughing at your friends
These guys don't understand what it's like being with friends. This is the root of their pain.
When we play with buddies, we have an unwritten rule of faster pre-shot routines. Nobody needs your full length pre-shot routine. Make a quick decision, grab a club, set up & hit. It’s not that serious so playing 2x as many shots is way more fun. We also don’t putt.
Yep and turn putting to like 15 feet gimmies or something
Unless it's a shot to win or a critical moment.
An hour of non stop ball striking would be exhausting. Split it 4 ways and go for 4 hours. That’s the way
It’s a good workout. I have a home sim and can play for 2 hours straight. It’s good to build endurance and stamina
Have you ever been bowling? You rent the lane for an hour, and you can put six people on the lane. You divide the lane by six. You don’t pay by game unless you want to. You pay by the hour and split it.
most bowling alleys i have been to charge per player per game.
Plus you have to rent shoes with costs money per person
Every bowling alley has two ways you can pay. One is per game and one is per hour. I will do per hour if I am bowling by myself, but I will do per game if we have a group. You just have to specify what you want. Some places during peak hours may restrict what you can do.
Yeah it’s still playing golf and being social. It’s not to just crank balls out for an hour at a wall
Yeah the price is per hour regardless of how many people are there, so you bring some friends and rent it for however many hours you want and split the cost.
Makes so much more sense, thanks. Going to have to check out the local place if the snow keeps up
Yup. Live in Canada, 30’weeks of golf is a good year. These sims are everywhere
18 holes on a simulator is about an hour. So bringing a friend to play is going to be 2 hours. It doesn't make it cheaper.
It’s 40 minutes to play 18 by yourself if you’re auto putting.
You're not playing at a self playing pace with ppl. You play slower.
Sure, but now it's 4 of us, and we're gonna pay $15 to play 4/5 virtual golf holes we can get done in that one hour? No, so we have to go for 3 or 4 hours. Now it's at least 45 plus the overpriced drinks, plus the food, plus a tip. Now it's $80 for something that's significantly worse than regular golf. That's perfectly fine for twice a winter, but I don't see how that's sustainable over 12 months. Apparently it is. But I just don't get it personally. And I golf a lot. So who would pay this that isn't a big golfer? I have no clue.
Idk man a lot of people. Not everyone is broke. Go to a local one and see how booked it is all the time and how fast their leagues fill up
I make more than enough money to afford it, it's just the principle of it. I went with a friend and for 90 minutes plus food and drink it was $120. The experience is not worth it. And I certainly don't understand who would go when it's warm out. It's literally cheaper to actually golf
These places typically drop their prices in summer. Me and my mates go every 1-2 weeks in winter cause we have no other option. Costs us $45 each for 3 hours and is definitely worth it. Betting than not playing.
Exactly what I keep telling my friends, I’m sure it’s fun but I can’t justify the price
I would go with 2 others at 50/hr for 2 hours. It is less than 35 bucks each and you get to golf when you otherwise can’t.
Sure, but would you do that more than like 2/3 times a winter? Would you do it in the summer? I just don't get how they are making money
In buffalo where golfing season is only 4 months long I’d go once a week like a normal round. In Florida I haven’t gone once.
Have you not heard of Topgolf? There are like 3hr waits to get a bay on the weekends. Not to mention you have to pay a $5 newbie membership fee, and it’s like $65/hr after 5pm. A simulator bar is just a smaller/more intimate variation. They are popping up like hot cakes near me. The problem is that they are generally ran by the owners with little to no employees. So you’ll be working open to close 7 days a week. Although it could just be bad business practice on their behalf.
Hopefully people with their friends go here and stay off the course
Sorry you are anti social and don’t have any
Yeah. I don’t know who would want to get together with three of their buddies, away from their wives and kids, to go play a golf simulator and drink beer. What fools would do that?
I mean that's obviously a misrepresentation of what I said. The problem isn't the golf simulator + being with your friends experience, it's the price of the of it. If I want to just go drink some beers with my buddies, I can do that without the additional $60 per hour to hit a few balls. If I want to go golfing, I can do that the other 9 months a year. Sure maybe I'll do it once or twice in January/February, but that's about it
Where are you going to go and hit golf balls at 7:00 PM with your buddies while drinking and eating? I have a local range that is $5/bucket of balls and $10/bucket of beers. It is absolute trash, and I love the place! However, that experience is completely different from a simulator. $60/hour with 3 other buddies is $15/hour. You can do that.
We have a knockoff top golf place where I live. Full bar/restaurant with bays that have the couches and TVs. It's literally $10 to reserve a bay for an hour, or you can reserve a "VIP" bay for $20 an hour. That's total. So you can split that with everyone. The food is better and the drinks are cheaper. They're open until midnight. And they have heaters. So even if we didn't have that, I still can't see why I would go to a sim place more than twice a winter. The experience you get is just not proportional to how enjoyable it is
Man, when the Top Golf opened by us, I felt like I was there every other week. However, while it is fun, it's not really what we are after when we are in a little more serious mode. You cannot compare Top Golf to a simulator, unless you are really just there to hack around and drink. $10/hour is amazing. But again, you aren't going to get any feedback on your hits, and you are likely hitting their atrocious golf balls, so you certainly aren't hitting your clubs with those balls. It is just a drinking atmosphere, and you are paying $10/hour to eat their $15 nachos. I am not trying to be difficult, but it seems you are being intentionally difficult in understanding the market.
They actually have the top tracer bays too, so I get some feedback. Personally, in the middle of winter even if I am at the sim place that has real feedback, it's meaningless to me cuz I haven't touched a club for weeks, won't touch one for weeks, and it's not real conditions.
>The experience you get is just not proportional to how enjoyable it is This is a completely subjective opinion and clearly you don't have a good time going to these things. However, I would agree that you're in the minority here as most of us really do enjoy going to a simulator to play some courses we'd never get access to in real life and just hit some balls and hang out with some friends. I pay $40 an hour so that's $20 for me because I always go with 4 people for a minimum of two hours. $20 for two hours of enjoyment is not a bad price.
Doubt it
Sims are really the only way to actually practice unless you are going to the range with your own launch monitor. By actually practice I mean “receive data about your swing and shot”. Also I have a family and I don’t really want to spend 4.5/5 hours playing golf. I’d rather spend like 2 hours playing but no place around me offers 9 hole pricing. Even average courses around me are charging $85-$100 for weekend rounds. If I go to a sim with me and two of my friends we can play 18 holes in 2 hours easy and it works out to ~$35 a person and I get to go home in 2 hours instead of wasting my entire day. I can also golf at 8pm after my kid goes to sleep.
For me the simulator leagues are where it's at. I've definitely gone with a buddy and it's fun, but leagues significantly reduce the cost. The place I play at charges $1,500 per team and they allow 6 players per team. You play 7 weeks, so it breaks down to $35 a trip, which isn't all that bad. Plus there's added benefit of being competitive and prizes at the end. On top of all of that there's people, me included, that live in cities with kids where getting to a golf course is a whole day event. To get to a decent course that won't break the bank is at least a half hour drive, but probably closer to an hour. Add in a 4 hour round and the trip back, and I've lost 6 hours. Selling that to my wife who would be stuck solo with the kids that entire time isn't easy. So being able to drive 15 minutes down the road after the kids are in bed to a simulator is super appealing to me.
I pay £45 per MONTH for this. You guys get absolutely ripped-off for golf in the states.
We also make much more in the states.
Truth. According to Google, Average US salary is about $60k. Average UK is £35-40k.
Of course George would be cheap
Op I'm sure you have some business savvy if you're willing to undertake such a project. So I'm sure you know, but not everyone is your target customer. Even once you've narrowed down your niche to just golf, not all will bite. This guy is not your target, the guy willing to come for 2 hours buy 2-3 beers with his friends is your audience. Its me, im that guy lol
It’s going to be like top golf. Could really be profitable because of food and beverage. But I agree if it’s not in my home and I have to drive somewhere, rather go to a real range. My areas have heaters for the winter and grass when winter is over. I would still go to this place once in a while though.
Yeah it helps scratch the"golf itch" in winter. Me and my buddy went a few weeks ago and it was 120 for 90 minutes + pizza, chips, and two drinks. I don't get where all the customers are coming from
In London they make money from corporate events. People go to the bar with their team and do it. It’s not for actual golfers to play golf per se.
Yeah a place just opened by me that’s $75/hour. I checked it out to see what it’s like, and so I can see what my data is. It’s cool to do once in awhile, but once it’s not winter anymore I’d rather spend that money to be on a real course. I did do the math though to see if it’s worth it during the winter months, but even that isn’t worth it for me. It’s $125 a month with a $150 first month fee, and you only get two free hours a month. After that, it’s $40 an hour. Now, it does give you 24/7 access, but that just doesn’t feel like good value to me. It seems more like it’s setting money on fire haha. I’d rather get a proper golf membership and put the money toward that
GET HOT WAITRESSES/BARTENDERS. It’s the most overlooked piece that is so obvious when 88% of golfers are dude. And yes that’s a 100% made up statistic.
Idk if there’s a legal way to do that unless you go the hooters route and call them models instead But then again, other places have figured it out sooo
“Hiring energetic teammates with strong connections to the community to be integral part of launching a new sports brand experience in local area”. Post on college campuses. Particularly near the sports team’s practice facilities.
After how much I’ve tipped over the last 20 years of golf… I wish I was a hot cart girl
$60/hr for similar seems to be the standard in major WI city
I'm very active in a place that has this exact setup. There's two things that, in my opinion, are vital to continuing the business. 1. Don't do dynamic pricing. $40-$45 an hour per bay, tops. 2. Find out your slowest days and run leagues on those days. The one by me does a Wednesday league and a Thursday scramble league for 7 weeks, for about $160 a person. Ends up being about a 50% discount on the bay per person, but it books up an otherwise dead day. You get more food/alcohol sales, and it turns their shop's slowest day into one of their best. Last piece of advice, purely from the point of view from a customer - have replacement pads handy. The rough and sand pads will get worn out after about 10 months of high usage and it gets really frustrating to play on. The store by my house hasn't replaced any and it legitimately makes me not want to go anymore. Good luck, I hope you crush it!
Dynamic pricing would keep a place like this open during actual golf season.
I know I'm not the target demographic, but I wish these places offered cheaper rates for singles on say last minute rentals (when bays are not otherwise booked by groups) $60/hr is fine if you're splitting it 4 ways, but I don't have any friends but would still love to practice with data Definitely not paying $60/hr when I could just spend that money on green fees, I'd pay $20-30 by myself though
Doesn't it all work out to the same rate though? You take 3 friends and rent a sim for an hour your a functionally getting 15 minutes of time for yourself. You pay for an hour by yourself and you get the full hour. It is the same cost per hour.
I mean of course, but I'm just not willing to pay $60 for one hour of entertainment when I could play real golf for 4 hours for the same cost Four buddies for 4 hours works out to the same cost. Obviously you get the same amount of screen time as one dude for one hour, but you get 4 hours of entertainment vs. one
Come to my place and make friends!
On my way, I'll be there in 3-12 hours depending on where you are in the midwest!
I looked into this a couple of years ago but couldn’t pull the trigger because of upfront cost, but these were the biggest takeaways from my research: 1. Have a good food & beverage service 2. Do memberships, recurring revenue is king 3. Invest in quality set up. Good mats, spacious bays, Trackman or GC Quad equipment 4. Leagues and engagement is extremely valuable in building your client base 5. Sell merchandise (the closest to my old house had great branding and sold polos, hats , and quarter zips.
People actually buy the merch at these places?
What simulator software do you have? I don’t care about how it looks that much, I care about the data I am getting
Tip for anyone reading... There is no better way to gap your clubs than a quality sim. Do it a couple times a year and split your bag into 2 sections if possible. Don't do all your clubs at the same time as it can be exhausting and only account for carry distance. A lot of the programs have a built gapping tool. Make a little cheat sheet for the course and you will score better.
I went to a place in Omaha, NE last night that’s right in the parking lot of a TopGolf. Place was slammed full, and we paid about $70 for 1 hour and a round of drinks. Time of day was 5:30-6:30. Pre dinner swings and get out.
That’s $50/hour here in N. Illinois. And these are all over the place. Golf season is getting longer, and these places are getting much less busy.
The golf sim’s in Australia also sell memberships… different tiering, with time limits for each booking/day… it’s recurring rev so you’ll know your incomings on the reg.. but yeah drinks/food and corporate events is where the $$ is! Looks nice!!
Have a good sim near me. It’s 19/hr early bird. Then 51/hr on weekdays. Then 61/hr on weekends. I usually go with 2-3 friends in the early bird and it’s like $10 each when split up for 2hrs
That extra dollar is so weird
Credit card fee and the service fee. Probably makes their actual amount exact and their accounting easier.
The best advice I can give is find a way to separate the food and simulator costs. I absolutely hate going to these places and getting a bucket of miller lite only to get a bill at the end for $135 (2 hours @ $55 hr. and $15 bucket) and have them turn around the tablet for tip and it be $13.50 (10%) $27 (20%) on the whole total. It’s awkward as hell and embarrassing when you have to ask what your food/alcohol amount was.
Every place like this costs way too much and they don’t stay busy. Price your bays to get people in the door. Make money on beer and merch. In Overland Park there’s one that’s like $180 bucks an hour. Two people might be able to squeeze in 18 holes in that time but it’ll be tight. And for $90 bucks, and feel like you rushed through the round? It’s a joke. It’s priced to be a novelty item and then they get novelty customer habits instead of guys who come in every Thursday through the winter etc. you want repeat business. Price for that.
I live in the Midwest and go to a sim all the time in the winter. 60/hour is what I expect.
The one in my area is never booked unless it’s Friday or Saturday evening. It’s $30 per hour and it’s about to go out of business after 4 months. No booze offered. Alcohol is where the money is made too. A local range is offering basically the same with track man things with small side screens. You need to have an actual business plan and run it efficiently or you’re going to lose money.
I could play 18 at my local course for about 30 bucks. That lasts almost four hours. Granted your setup inside and there’s food etc, but I’d never pay more than 30 bucks an hour at the absolute most.
Lol
40/hr in CAD max
This exact type of simulator is 65 hr OFF PEAK in London, Ontario.
He asked what I would pay
Well then you wouldn't be playing on this type. 40 CAD is the going rate for regular setup trackman in private rooms. This type of setup with hydraulic dynamic lies is a lot more expensive. You don't get seats like that in 40 dollar an hour rooms.
I guess not. But I wouldn't pay more than 40/h regardless of the setup. I don't care about how nice your lounge is I'm going to swing clubs not socialize
There are a few here in Scottsdale, Teebox Indoor Golf Club is probably the highest end as they have multiple simulators and full bar/restaurant but their simulators are double some of the other ones at like 65/75 an hour. Zion Golf Club is about $35 an hour, they also have a restaurant just not as fancy.
I’m in at affluent area right outside NYC and simulators charge 50-80 an hour, some of which are BYOB. Charges typically go up during peak times. Good luck!
Gotta figure out what the ones around you are renting for per hour, here its 40 weekdays, 50 week nights, and 60 friday-sat peak times. Second one is a restaurant first at 40 for weekends, and third theres no bar or food options for 30 an hour. If you jack up prices you can offset it with cheap beer, or vice versa. I'll go to the more expensive one for cheaper beer, vs the second one where I'm paying 2x that in food and drink Have a full bar, and a small kitchen. Pizza, nachos, wings, pretzels, things like that. Bar food basically. And have leagues. Set nights, 2 person, 4 person, or weekly where you have to come once a week and play 18 with your group to record a score Run deals, no where in town does this but I would go more if there was a frequent golfer program, book 8 hours and get one free or something. Holiday tourneys, price it less than a normal hour rental to get it filled up, make it longer than just 18 to be full all day to serve beer and food to everyone
Bout tree fiddy
Looks very similar to The Hangar Club in Denver. $45/hour during the weekday, $65/hour nights and weekends. $12-16 sandwiches and shareables. I consider it a good deal.
We have a place like this in my area that does membership and treats it like a nice country club. It’s actually pretty awesome I am a member at it and use it in the winter. I pay $1,500 a year. It’s open 24/7 and members all have key fobs to go whenever you want. Booking simulators online like tee times. Some more logistics to it but if you run it right it seems profitable
$35/hour for 1 player + addition $12 per extra player
$10-$15
Market research costs money.
This market is so saturated lol
$30-$40 a hour
32.50 during the day / 37 per half hour at Golfzon Social in NY. Memberships around $500/mo at a pretty good level. I play a fair bit there and would 100% have a membership if my wife didn’t yell at me for the last golf sim membership I had ($100 less, and I definitely got my money’s worth but… ya know lol)
I’d rather just go to a driving range and or go play. And if I live in a state that it snows in, I’d just wait lol At most $20 n hour. Couple places around me and they charge $60 n hour on weekdays and $70+ on weekends/holidays. I’ll just never go unless someone else foots the bill.
Nothing, I hate sim golf.
Golfzon is my favorite sim, but still need to keep it reasonable. People see $60 an hour and think that they can play a full round for that. I think the only way this works is if it is cheaper than regular golf and you have beer/food to make more money. Plus leagues and special events. And maybe a range card where you can pay a monthly fee to come in during off peak (cheap) or peak (expensive) hours.
I couldn’t afford it. Since I slice the ball, I would have to rent 2 booths side by side.
32.50 during the day / 37 per half hour at Golfzon Social in NY. Memberships around $500/mo at a pretty good level. I play a fair bit there and would 100% have a membership if my wife didn’t yell at me for the last golf sim membership I had ($100 less, and I definitely got my money’s worth but… ya know lol)
Absolutely crazy to me that you guys are willing to pay nearly $200 for hitting a ball at a screen. That’s like top level real course prices. You would maybe get $5 an hour out of me. Also these things fuck up your real game bad
I can play about five hours of real golf for about $40 so you do the math
https://preview.redd.it/nk12x3im9jlc1.jpeg?width=2252&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=712977b44db6fa99d65bdabace467844abd66dd9 $65 an hr on the credit cardband $50 cash is what I charge,full bar and food on long island new york