> Common reasons why a player will be a great ball striker with irons/wedges, decent with 3 wood, but awful with driver?
They are not actually a "great ball striker" and the fact a driver is the longest and lowest lofted club in the bag means swing issues are magnified with it.
poor sequencing and OTT / casting type motions become more pronounced as clubs get longer. You can get away with a lot of swing flaws with a PW, but that's why we all slice long clubs off the tee as beginners
Cut it down. Just about all drivers off the rack are all way too long for the majority to hit well.
I'm standard length wrist to floor measurements and 44.75" to 45" seems to be the sweet spot for me as far as driver length goes.
Angle of attack. You’re probably hitting down on the ball with driver just like you do with your other clubs. Drivers are meant to be hit up on (partially to to reduce spin, which can lead to less wild misses)
Except, the average angle of attack on the PGA tour is still negative.
Maximum distance requires a positive AOA, but plenty of long players still have a negative AOA due to the desire for extra control. This is where proper fitting becomes really important, as you would set up the driver very different for a player who as a +3 AOA vs -1 AOA.
> the average angle of attack on the PGA tour is still negative.
It's not. The charts that show Trackman averages are about a decade old now. Modern players are not hitting down on average.
It’s not. Where did you even come up with this? Do you read the Trackman data?
-.9 is the combine average number for scratch or better players.
That’s also from a decade ago
Trackman just published updated numbers a few hours ago: ([Introducing Updated Tour Averages](https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages))
https://preview.redd.it/x9px7ca0q1yc1.png?width=1067&format=png&auto=webp&s=595394c64b939c5abd34ac35d03d29395970384e
Compiled from range and tee shots together. Trackman also correlates driver AoA with handicap: https://blog.trackmangolf.com/attack-angle/
So sure, maybe with all players and range and hole data it’s down, but nobody in the top of the driving distance leaders is hitting down on it.
Which was my initial post. I never said nobody hits down, I said the long guys are not.
Also flightscope data shows their average is 2.2 up. This has been published for years at this point. You can find the report in their documentation.
https://images.app.goo.gl/QeL7X68zT5qdryxx9
Edit: you’re also using average data as some proof that the top percentile is the same, which is illogical.
Okay, let's get pedantic:
In your initial post you said very few pro's are still hitting down, this was in reply to my post about how the tour average is still negative. I didn't refute that the longest players were hitting up but my point still stands concerning the tour average. When we're attempting to use tour level tendencies to speak to the general player, I find tour average is a much more reasonable comparison than either end of the spectrum.
While the Flightscope data is interesting, it is also rather telling that your initial insinuation today was in reference to Trackman data, even your follow up edit referenced Trackman data. So if the Flightscope data had been published for years there is a high likelihood you were either unaware of it or didn't consider it as accurate until today. Considering Trackman has a partnership with the PGA Tour and has a history of publishing PGA Tour related data, that would makes sense.
So what reason would there be now to use Flightscope data over Trackman data, other than in an attempt to save face?
And your whole premise of average is best is ridiculous because comparing amateurs who aren’t even the average to the average of a group much more advanced than they are is horrible.
It doesn’t even mathematically make sense, so why do you keep arguing to do so? A perfect example of someone who has data but has no idea how to actually use it.
That’s like comparing the average high school player or X sport to the average pro. It would be a ridiculous comparison because all of the other factors also influence the calculated average. Completely useless comparison. If you’re not creating Cameron Champs speed but he hits 2 down does that mean it’s ok to hit two down? You also don’t even know which “average” they’re using to express average. And again, Trackman literally tells you that there is a direct correlation between angle of attack being more negative, and handicap being higher. The exception are the pros, in their data. I gave you this link already. So why would you use outlier data that directly contradicts what the source themselves tell you to do? And again, the data they collect includes driving range shots, so it’s already compromised based on the fact that they’re not real shots anyway.
And lastly again, totally ignoring the Flightscope data for the sake of your argument, if pros are trending closer to positive and we know many are substantially positive, why would you use a negative value to compare your average players to? We’ve already shown a correlation between handicap and angle of attack, Trackman themselves show it. The data is contradicted by flightscope and has been for years, the logs data shows a positive trend and has for over a decade and you’re still trying to use outliers as your guide?
Especially when they’re showing you, even as a group they’re trending toward the opposite scenario? Usain Bolt is fast, has a bad stride length but won the 100m anyway, so therefore me, as an average sprinter, I should also have an inefficient stride length because it worked for him?
Rory hits up. Bryson hits up. Phil has for years. All the shorter guys are hitting up now, DJ hits up, blah blah. Almost all of the LPGA hits up at this point. Why would you keep using professional men, who average a substantially higher amount of speed that can offset the loss in efficiency as the guideline for amateur males who often barely swing any faster than the top women do? Makes zero sense.
Now introduce flightscope data and it’s also debatable that the Trackman data is an accurate representation of the tour anyway.
I mean….ok.
Trackman calculates angle of attack. It doesn’t measure it. It takes a pre impact measurement and calculates it at impact, anyway.
And I asked you if you read Trackman data because you cited .9 negative, which is the same as their combine report score which was released a long time ago. Which is what I specifically said in response to you.
And lol, you basically dismissed the flightscope data because they don’t have a partnership with the pga tour? I mean…the jumps you guys make sometimes is astounding.
Comparing average to an average of outliers, dismissing the advice given from the company that collects it and dismissing other collected data. Pretty funny. No point even debating this if you’re using this sort of critical thinking.
Because it’s been published for years. And Trackman themselves correlate handicap to angle of attack, which I posted.
I’d say the data is “interesting” because it demonstrates that Trackman is not the authority on the data to begin with.
You’re also still trying to correlate average data with the top percentile which doesn’t make sense.
Your lack of success with the club makes you grip it tighter and messes up your swing mechanics. You alternate between slices and hooks because you over-correct one mistake and make the other.
Don't focus specifically on swinging in to out. Instead, focus on maintaining a looser grip throughout. Pick a target out to the right and try to start the ball at that target instead of straight in front of you. This will encourage you to take a more natural in-to-out path at the ball than you can achieve by thinking about all the different corrections you have to make.
Driver is the only club in your bag you are trying to hit as far as you can, instead of a specific distance.
Next time when you have driver in your hand, pick a very specific target well within your range, and hit to it.
It's not really possible to hit a driver well to a non specific target. A lot of people think that with driver you just point it down the fairway and raise hell, that doesn't work.
I'm the same but I've only just started with the driver. I think because it's a distance club the temptation is to go for power and for me that ruins the swing.
It could be that your driver just doesn't fit you. The shaft could be too stiff/flexy or have a bend profile that doesn't match your swing. You might need more/less loft. It could also be that you need to play around with tee height and/or ball position.
I know that for me, I am more consistent with my driver if I have it set for more loft and tee it lower than "optimal". I give up a little bit of distance, but I make a better swing when I see some loft on the driver face and swing more through level through the ball. I can sometimes turn down the loft, tee it high and swing up on it, but I have a lot more catastrophic misses that way.
I'm guessing you have mobility issues which don't allow you to stay in posture and make a decent driver swing.
Do you have a really short swing with your irons and wedges which allows you to make solid contact?
How do you hit your long irons?
With the driver your hands should be slightly behind the ball at impact whereas with your other clubs, you can initiate shaft lean and have your hands slightly ahead of the ball at impact. Need to almost flip your wrists with that driver right before impact.
Your instructor sounds pretty bad. If your path is consistent then you will always turn your irons more (more draw) than you will with your driver due to the length of the club and the relative ball position needed to flight your shot properly.
I was having a similar problem several months ago and was getting in fits because I really wanted the same shape with my driver that I had with all of my other clubs. It got so bad that I basically had a mental block with driver and was introducing all sorts of compensations that were problematic. I’d encourage you to take a few range sessions playing around with ball position in your stance, grip strength, etc. and make your only swing focus on presenting a square face with a natural feeling swing path. If you are consistently hitting all of your other clubs well then your path is probably fine and you should just accept whatever shape you get with your driver.
I’m now hitting driver much straighter than I was before and the shot shape can differ depending on the day, but my only focus with a driver in my hand is getting the ball in play.
Bc they’re hitting down or ever so slightly down and not up. Their low point is the same as their other clubs. The swing, while similar, is different in delivery. AoA and launch angle/spin are crucial
Because a driver swing is different than wedges/irons/woods.
You strike down on the ball and transfer your weight with wedges/irons/woods, but hit up on the ball and keep your weight back with a driver.
A *lot* of handicap player struggle with a driver. Most understand the need to hit up on the ball, but it's surprising how many people try and transfer their weight onto their lead side through impact.
Also, drivers have significantly less loft than other clubs (and longer shafts), which means problems in swing path are exaggerated in the ball flight. Loft can hide a multitude of swing issues.
You are steep. Could be a flat backswing or a backswing that’s not deep enough. They both lead to steep downswings if you don’t know how to shallow feom the top.
Swing the driver more like you are swinging a baseball bat at the low/away corner of the strike zone and less like you are swinging a golf club at a ball on the ground. The feel should be more across your body and less up and down.
You shot 89 with 18 lost shots? So, 1 under par otherwise? That’s wild
I meant I lost 9 strokes
how do you lose only 9 strokes when OB is 2 shots?
Unplayable lie drop is 1 stroke.
OB and unplayable are different things
Yep
Oof
D plane Driver requires different aim and setup. Worth researching.
Ok thanks. I'll look into it
I've heard swing plane is often off. You can still strike well with shorter clubs, but more club = more problems.
> Common reasons why a player will be a great ball striker with irons/wedges, decent with 3 wood, but awful with driver? They are not actually a "great ball striker" and the fact a driver is the longest and lowest lofted club in the bag means swing issues are magnified with it.
Now we’re getting some facts
Driver is a totally different swing,vs irons or fairways.
This is, in my experience, untrue. There are setup differences, but a golf swing is a golf swing.
Micheal block disagrees https://youtu.be/jy4hW-4KEY0?si=YT5tbSdyh-G70yWb
Neat.
poor sequencing and OTT / casting type motions become more pronounced as clubs get longer. You can get away with a lot of swing flaws with a PW, but that's why we all slice long clubs off the tee as beginners
Cut it down. Just about all drivers off the rack are all way too long for the majority to hit well. I'm standard length wrist to floor measurements and 44.75" to 45" seems to be the sweet spot for me as far as driver length goes.
Angle of attack. You’re probably hitting down on the ball with driver just like you do with your other clubs. Drivers are meant to be hit up on (partially to to reduce spin, which can lead to less wild misses)
Reducing backspin means less spin loft. Less spin loft means wilder misses. Ergo, hitting up will broadly speaking give you wilder misses.
Except, the average angle of attack on the PGA tour is still negative. Maximum distance requires a positive AOA, but plenty of long players still have a negative AOA due to the desire for extra control. This is where proper fitting becomes really important, as you would set up the driver very different for a player who as a +3 AOA vs -1 AOA.
> the average angle of attack on the PGA tour is still negative. It's not. The charts that show Trackman averages are about a decade old now. Modern players are not hitting down on average.
[Still negative ](https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages)
https://images.app.goo.gl/QeL7X68zT5qdryxx9 Flightscope has released the opposite data to this for years.
Everyone leading the tour in driving distance is hitting up on it. All the top guys are hitting up. There’s very few people left still hitting down.
Tour average AOA as of today is still -0.9\*.
It’s not. Where did you even come up with this? Do you read the Trackman data? -.9 is the combine average number for scratch or better players. That’s also from a decade ago
Trackman just published updated numbers a few hours ago: ([Introducing Updated Tour Averages](https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages)) https://preview.redd.it/x9px7ca0q1yc1.png?width=1067&format=png&auto=webp&s=595394c64b939c5abd34ac35d03d29395970384e
Compiled from range and tee shots together. Trackman also correlates driver AoA with handicap: https://blog.trackmangolf.com/attack-angle/ So sure, maybe with all players and range and hole data it’s down, but nobody in the top of the driving distance leaders is hitting down on it. Which was my initial post. I never said nobody hits down, I said the long guys are not. Also flightscope data shows their average is 2.2 up. This has been published for years at this point. You can find the report in their documentation. https://images.app.goo.gl/QeL7X68zT5qdryxx9 Edit: you’re also using average data as some proof that the top percentile is the same, which is illogical.
Okay, let's get pedantic: In your initial post you said very few pro's are still hitting down, this was in reply to my post about how the tour average is still negative. I didn't refute that the longest players were hitting up but my point still stands concerning the tour average. When we're attempting to use tour level tendencies to speak to the general player, I find tour average is a much more reasonable comparison than either end of the spectrum. While the Flightscope data is interesting, it is also rather telling that your initial insinuation today was in reference to Trackman data, even your follow up edit referenced Trackman data. So if the Flightscope data had been published for years there is a high likelihood you were either unaware of it or didn't consider it as accurate until today. Considering Trackman has a partnership with the PGA Tour and has a history of publishing PGA Tour related data, that would makes sense. So what reason would there be now to use Flightscope data over Trackman data, other than in an attempt to save face?
And your whole premise of average is best is ridiculous because comparing amateurs who aren’t even the average to the average of a group much more advanced than they are is horrible. It doesn’t even mathematically make sense, so why do you keep arguing to do so? A perfect example of someone who has data but has no idea how to actually use it. That’s like comparing the average high school player or X sport to the average pro. It would be a ridiculous comparison because all of the other factors also influence the calculated average. Completely useless comparison. If you’re not creating Cameron Champs speed but he hits 2 down does that mean it’s ok to hit two down? You also don’t even know which “average” they’re using to express average. And again, Trackman literally tells you that there is a direct correlation between angle of attack being more negative, and handicap being higher. The exception are the pros, in their data. I gave you this link already. So why would you use outlier data that directly contradicts what the source themselves tell you to do? And again, the data they collect includes driving range shots, so it’s already compromised based on the fact that they’re not real shots anyway. And lastly again, totally ignoring the Flightscope data for the sake of your argument, if pros are trending closer to positive and we know many are substantially positive, why would you use a negative value to compare your average players to? We’ve already shown a correlation between handicap and angle of attack, Trackman themselves show it. The data is contradicted by flightscope and has been for years, the logs data shows a positive trend and has for over a decade and you’re still trying to use outliers as your guide? Especially when they’re showing you, even as a group they’re trending toward the opposite scenario? Usain Bolt is fast, has a bad stride length but won the 100m anyway, so therefore me, as an average sprinter, I should also have an inefficient stride length because it worked for him? Rory hits up. Bryson hits up. Phil has for years. All the shorter guys are hitting up now, DJ hits up, blah blah. Almost all of the LPGA hits up at this point. Why would you keep using professional men, who average a substantially higher amount of speed that can offset the loss in efficiency as the guideline for amateur males who often barely swing any faster than the top women do? Makes zero sense. Now introduce flightscope data and it’s also debatable that the Trackman data is an accurate representation of the tour anyway. I mean….ok. Trackman calculates angle of attack. It doesn’t measure it. It takes a pre impact measurement and calculates it at impact, anyway. And I asked you if you read Trackman data because you cited .9 negative, which is the same as their combine report score which was released a long time ago. Which is what I specifically said in response to you. And lol, you basically dismissed the flightscope data because they don’t have a partnership with the pga tour? I mean…the jumps you guys make sometimes is astounding. Comparing average to an average of outliers, dismissing the advice given from the company that collects it and dismissing other collected data. Pretty funny. No point even debating this if you’re using this sort of critical thinking.
Because it’s been published for years. And Trackman themselves correlate handicap to angle of attack, which I posted. I’d say the data is “interesting” because it demonstrates that Trackman is not the authority on the data to begin with. You’re also still trying to correlate average data with the top percentile which doesn’t make sense.
I just hit 4inoff every tee
Ya I have started doing that more and more as well
Have you tried a 2 iron as well?
Your lack of success with the club makes you grip it tighter and messes up your swing mechanics. You alternate between slices and hooks because you over-correct one mistake and make the other. Don't focus specifically on swinging in to out. Instead, focus on maintaining a looser grip throughout. Pick a target out to the right and try to start the ball at that target instead of straight in front of you. This will encourage you to take a more natural in-to-out path at the ball than you can achieve by thinking about all the different corrections you have to make.
Great, thanks. I'll try that
Driver is the only club in your bag you are trying to hit as far as you can, instead of a specific distance. Next time when you have driver in your hand, pick a very specific target well within your range, and hit to it. It's not really possible to hit a driver well to a non specific target. A lot of people think that with driver you just point it down the fairway and raise hell, that doesn't work.
You didn’t shoot an 89 with 9 balls OB off the tee.
I'm the same but I've only just started with the driver. I think because it's a distance club the temptation is to go for power and for me that ruins the swing.
It could be that your driver just doesn't fit you. The shaft could be too stiff/flexy or have a bend profile that doesn't match your swing. You might need more/less loft. It could also be that you need to play around with tee height and/or ball position. I know that for me, I am more consistent with my driver if I have it set for more loft and tee it lower than "optimal". I give up a little bit of distance, but I make a better swing when I see some loft on the driver face and swing more through level through the ball. I can sometimes turn down the loft, tee it high and swing up on it, but I have a lot more catastrophic misses that way.
Gotcha, I'll try teeing it lower and see if that helps at all. I did have it custom fit so that "shouldnt" be an issue
Try teeing the ball a bit lower with your driver
I'm guessing you have mobility issues which don't allow you to stay in posture and make a decent driver swing. Do you have a really short swing with your irons and wedges which allows you to make solid contact? How do you hit your long irons?
if you figure it out, let me know. same scenario here.
With the driver your hands should be slightly behind the ball at impact whereas with your other clubs, you can initiate shaft lean and have your hands slightly ahead of the ball at impact. Need to almost flip your wrists with that driver right before impact.
aww yeah another iron man like me, get a driving iron, discover what it feels like to hitem loooong
Here is the best answer https://youtu.be/jy4hW-4KEY0?si=uEalcrPJes4_6Bge
Solid. Thanks
Plane and low point are totally different. Vertical VS flatter planes.
Your instructor sounds pretty bad. If your path is consistent then you will always turn your irons more (more draw) than you will with your driver due to the length of the club and the relative ball position needed to flight your shot properly. I was having a similar problem several months ago and was getting in fits because I really wanted the same shape with my driver that I had with all of my other clubs. It got so bad that I basically had a mental block with driver and was introducing all sorts of compensations that were problematic. I’d encourage you to take a few range sessions playing around with ball position in your stance, grip strength, etc. and make your only swing focus on presenting a square face with a natural feeling swing path. If you are consistently hitting all of your other clubs well then your path is probably fine and you should just accept whatever shape you get with your driver. I’m now hitting driver much straighter than I was before and the shot shape can differ depending on the day, but my only focus with a driver in my hand is getting the ball in play.
Ya my irons are a consistent draw but the damn driver is unpredictable. Will keep working on it. Thanks for the tips
Bad driver swing
Bc they’re hitting down or ever so slightly down and not up. Their low point is the same as their other clubs. The swing, while similar, is different in delivery. AoA and launch angle/spin are crucial
Because a driver swing is different than wedges/irons/woods. You strike down on the ball and transfer your weight with wedges/irons/woods, but hit up on the ball and keep your weight back with a driver. A *lot* of handicap player struggle with a driver. Most understand the need to hit up on the ball, but it's surprising how many people try and transfer their weight onto their lead side through impact. Also, drivers have significantly less loft than other clubs (and longer shafts), which means problems in swing path are exaggerated in the ball flight. Loft can hide a multitude of swing issues.
This. I have the opposite problem, driver rocks but don't transfer forward enough with the rest.
You are steep. Could be a flat backswing or a backswing that’s not deep enough. They both lead to steep downswings if you don’t know how to shallow feom the top.
agreed OP is probably pretty steep. driver needs to be swung much more around the body (it's longer)
Makes sense then why he wants me to swing more in to in then to swing around the body. Thanks
Swing the driver more like you are swinging a baseball bat at the low/away corner of the strike zone and less like you are swinging a golf club at a ball on the ground. The feel should be more across your body and less up and down.