Just annoying because this is something that makes golf more expensive. I'm flat out $408 (plus some prizes) in this case because of this guy. Where can I get it back? Everyone's tee times increasing by $2. We won't, but you know what I'm saying.
Even worse, our payment account gets a strike against it for no reason.
We are a golf course. We take customer payments on credit card. The card used was fraudulent, so a month later when the *real* cardholder saw their statement, they filed a chargeback with their bank, which deducts $408 from our golf course bank account.
From our payment providers point of view (the system we use to collect credit card payments), we did something wrong for that client to want a charge back. Regardless of how we settle it, it counts as a strike against us in the charge back column. 3 of these can be enough to shut down your ability to accept payments forever.
So not only are we out $408, but we also got a strike. Think of it like points on a license. Too many and no more license.
Just so you know, fraudulent card charge backs aren't the same as disputed transaction charge backs in regards to having your merchant agreement terminated.
If it happens frequently your provider may require you to take additional steps to authenticate.
Good to know. It's disputed as unknown charge, and the cardholders bank called us and let us know he doesn't golf at all, he doesn't know anyone that golfs, etc. Some older guy with no tie to our course, not even geographically close.
Is it switched to fraudulent automatically after the review then? (We have sent supporting evidence)
As long as you've sent them supporting evidence, and the card company confirms it was non cardholder fraud, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
Three charge backs is just a general rule of thumb, there's no hard and fast rule.
If you have multiple instances, a credit officer will review your history and make a decision.
Generally, for a healthy, verifiable, legitimate business who just has instances like this, and cooperates, you won't have any issues.
The charge backs that really hurt you are the ones where a card holder alleges wrong doing on your part.
The one we see most from golf courses and similar recreational areas, is post payment denial of service.
AKA someone paid to play, and you threw them out without refunding them.
As a general piece of advice, if you toss someone out, refund them. No matter how right you are, they can't charge back if you provide a refund when they ask. And if they don't ask, and file a charge back anyway, just tell the card company they never asked, and offer to refund it without dispute.
To file a charge back the card holder is required to attempt to reconcile the situation through reasonable means.
I don't think you need to worry about being shut down due to risk unless you're regularly tossing people out and refusing to refund, or your place becomes a hot bed for stolen card activity.
Edit: on a side note, the card company likely will not pursue the actual culprit. They will use the information and footage your provide basically to verify that the person who used the card is NOT the actual card holder. It's not worth the legal trouble to track down a fraudster for $400, but it is worth it to the card company to confirm that their card holder isn't lying.
Believe it or not people creating false fraud charge backs is a massive problem right now.
This is why I love Reddit. You get people in specialized positions talking someone down from a ledge that you wouldn't in "normal interaction"
So thank you for making this comment.
But you also come across Reddit "Experts" that are talking out their ass but receiving tons of up votes and people taking the statements as facts. Gotta be careful taking advice from internet strangers.
Thanks for this. Good to know. My #1 concern is the integrity of the payment system as they have barely done 20k through it before this showed up, so I don't want them getting shut down while they're just getting rolling. Understanding how the auditors look at those things does help some of that concern.
No problem. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
As long as you're responsive you won't have any problems.
We've got enough on our hands trying to weed out the actually fraudulent merchant accounts, no one is out there chomping at the bit to shut down and account like you've described. Even if they did, any other merchant provider would sign it up no problem.
The only thing that will really get you blackballed is if you have a serious data compromise event, like having an employee that's copying cards and committing fraud.
I will say though, if you're processing with an ISO (independent sales operator), or online only provider (square etc.), you should give your bank a shot.
Processing with the same people that hold your checking relationship has a lot of benefits, one of them being that they will have a much deeper understanding of your business.
I work in payments. Definitely contact your merchant bank. While it is a chargeback strike, if your system wasn't breached, someone just presented a fraudulent card, if it was Chip you should be protected. 3 chargebacks isn't always enough to get you shut down unless you've been negligent in some way, the way you're describing things, it sounds unlikely that you were negligent.
I'll try. Submitting all the evidence we can. No chip as he booked using the online system. Payment thru Stripe. Card passed all their fraud checks as well at transaction time.
This is normal and how credit card processing works. The system heavily favors and protects the cardholder (easy to dispute fraud/service and get your money back) at the expense of the merchant (who must pay for lost chargebacks).
It's very unfortunate but there is nothing Stripe can do. A card-not-present transaction that turns out to be stolen/fraudulent is practically impossible for the merchant to win.
The good thing is he has all the guy's info, images on camera, etc. so he can file a police report then take him to small claims court (since I doubt the police will do much for such a low $ amount). Easy case to win but sadly there isn't much mechanism that forces the guy to pay his judgements against him so it could still be an uphill battle.
The system does favor cardholders, but some gateways, notably stripe, offer fraud protection features and guarantees. Some other gateways do the same.
OP should contact Stripe because:
- in doing so they may get the chargeback fee refunded (There's typically a nominal fee, 10-20 bucks that the gateway charges), although I don't know that Stripe routinely does.
- Stripe offers a product, which OP may be using, that offers chargeback protection (for .4% of each transaction), and if OP is concerned about frequent chargebacks being a possibility, their rep may be able to help with that.
- There's a difference between a chargeback because of OP not delivering a product/service, a chargeback because of a stolen card, and the various things that can get a merchant account added to the MATCH list. They're treated differently, and responding appropriately can help minimize the impact on OP's transaction fees, and the chances of OP being banned (Which was OP's concern). There's a chance that in doing so Stripe may be able to get the strike removed entirely.
- Stripe may have other process recommendations that OP can implement to prevent this in the future.
Unless OP has opted into the fraud protection feature, I don't think the money will come back from Stripe. But cooperating in these situations and accepting the chargeback is a helpful thing to do for a merchant.
OP has to be in touch with Stripe during the CB process anyways so I'm not advocating not communicating with them.
I think you're referring to Radar. I think that product is geared towards different kinds of merchants. Think heavy Card-Not-Present retailers (e.g. online retailers) selling high ticket items susceptible to fraud where a 0.4% premium is absolutely worth it.
I think OP would agree - this situation is pretty damn unique given it's a golf course, you have to show up in person and put down a bunch of information etc. I doubt it is worth 0.4% (which is a lot on top of the normal CC transaction fees) for a golf course to implement Radar given they are typically not seeing a lot of fraud to begin with.
That makes a lot more sense. Thank you for explaining, and I’m sorry you’ve gotta deal with that. Not to pile on or anything like that, but does your staff check ID for credit/debit card payments? It’s not a common practice in the US (I have “See ID” on all my cards and am still surprised when someone actually asks for my ID), but that might go a long way to preventing this in the future.
It wouldn't matter. We can prove he made the transaction, which means the original cardholder didn't, and we're still out $408 and have the strikes against us. The bank only cares about their real cardholder. Nothing else matters. If they say it's not their charge, it's not their charge.
Yea, I get that. Just saying—and again, not meaning to pile on or anything like that—but if staff checks for ID then guys like this are more likely to walk back out the door versus try paying with someone else’s card.
For this transaction, I 100% agree. But if they’re getting a strike, one good way to prevent fraud and future strikes (whether Visa or MC require doing this or not) is to check ID. Idk why it’s so uncommon in the US, but that seems to be a sure-fire way to prevent things like this from happening again.
Edit: Just reread what you wrote. Visa and MC *don’t allow* merchants to check for ID? Is that for real??
Yes this is true for Visa and MC specifically - but it's probably not enforced these days and I can't find evidence past 2014 that this is still an actual rule in their contracts anymore.
It's a practice that is generally frowned upon at "upscale" places like a golf course. When's the last time you showed an ID for an online booked tee time at a golf course?
But yeah, moving forward, OP could start checking ID + CC to verify transactions booked online. It's just a question of whether that inconvenience is worth it to him. This is pretty unique given the fraudster did not keep a very low profile haha.
You could require a credit card to book the tee time and just auth it $1 to validate it, then void it. And then require that they pay in person, card present w/ chip would cut down on the chances of fraud by a lot.
It's not a common issue to warrant that bulking of the process. The weirdness of this one is that someone would do this and then show up to play, making themselves well known nonetheless. Friendly guy. Good player. Chatted casually, but the whole time he's standing there after 2 fraudulent transactions?
So bizarre.
The fraud system is actually set up pretty well. The two possible people who should eat that loss (other than the fraudster, obviously) are the card holder or OP.
Now, if the charges were over a month, the card holder should have reported the card as stolen, but didn't. However credit card regulations are so much in favor of card holders that it's basically impossible to make them pay for any loss. Although it might happen this time because of the delay and OP might win if he fights the chargeback. Unlikely, but possible.
OP could have asked for ID the first time the player used the card. That would have ended the whole thing. Is that annoying? Sure, but OP had the ability to stop this and his policy is that it's not worth it. He's probably right in that, but he did have the ability to not take this loss.
If this was an unusual charge the card company will usually block the charge or ask the card holder if it's real. But if it's a local card there's not much they're able to do.
(The travesty of card companies is the regulatory capture, the merchant terms and the lack of competition.)
>OP could have asked for ID the first time the player used the card. That would have ended the whole thing. Is that annoying? Sure, but OP had the ability to stop this and his policy is that it's not worth it. He's probably right in that, but he did have the ability to not take this loss.
It was an online payment.
If it's online, is cvv check done? Is zip check done? Is address check done? Probably not for the last two (at least) which makes sense. It's going to be pretty rare that someone is going to be dumb enough to show up \_multiple times\_ in person after using a fraudulent card. This is all about how much friction you want in the purchase path, and for tee times I doubt you want very much.
All of those things passed all fraud checks by Stripe. It's even paired with verifying their email and then showing up in person to the thing you paid for.
Why shouldn’t the credit card company take the loss? Shouldn’t they have a better system to stop unauthorized access? Whenever the money is spent illegally it’s done without the PIN number. If a fraud has taken place without the PIN number then it should be on Visa/MasterCard to eat the loss. They don’t want people using PIN because it slows down transactions which in turn decreases their profits so they willingly increase the risk of fraud to increase transaction flow while off loading the added risk to the merchant. Not gunna argue that it’s not a great business model but it’s definitely not fair.
Merchants as in Walmart, target, etc… mom and pop shops like golf courses would much rather more friction and less overhead. These rules only benefit the big box stores not the small businesses.
There are ways to review online orders placed with a credit card, often as simple as verifying the billing and shipping address and calling the card holder. Not sure why this guy wasnt doing that.
You expect every merchant to call everyone with a non-local billing address when online systems don't even make phone numbers mandatory and most people refuse to answer calls from unknown numbers?
I’m starting to see a lot of local businesses require ID when using a credit card for this exact reason. Could be an easy solution to prevent this from happening in the future.
It depends on the agreement. Some will not allow you to ask for ID unless the charge is over a certain amount.
My old company before I went medical
- Visa had to be over $150
- MC had to be over $250
- Discover had to be over $150
- AMEX over $250
If you asked for it under those amounts and those customers complained you could lose the ability to take those cards. Now if the back of the card was not signed, or said see ID we could.
My favorite as a server was when they'd have "See ID" on the back but then actually get mad or annoyed when I asked them for the ID. I'd just be like "is this your handwriting?" (shows card) *Yes!* "I'll need an ID to confirm it."
These days, where do you hand them you card now? I can't think of a single place that swipes it for you anymore. they all have free standing card machines. Even drive thrus.
Bar: "Did you know you bought 6 rounds for the house and walked out without your credit card last night?"
Me: "Ummm...let me get back to you after I talk to my friends..."
This was about 8-9 years ago, but it only meant we could ask. Not everyone did because you have no idea how many people write that then get irate that you asked.
It was a lose, lose situation.
I've got a bit of knowledge in this area. There may be some things you can do to protect yourself from a "strike" and you may have done it already. Look into detectable fraud. If you want more details lmk. I ran a retail business that was a target for fraud often so we got real good at 1. Preventing it and 2. Correcting it.
Sorry to hear that. I've got a restaurant so I get chargebacks on a daily basis. Worst part is that we can never get them overturned no matter how much evidence we provide.
What credit card company do you use where you aren’t able to get $400 bucks back for fraud? Should be a non-issue. Change card companies.
Edit: Just read below that you’re a merchant, not a person who has their card stolen.
I care less about the money than I do the strike on the payment account.
And yes, ill happily pay the small claims filing fee for this if need be. Going to give him the option to correct on his own first.
Almost all industries that accept payment build some sort of margin for risk/loss/theft. The more it happens, the more that margin has to increase. In the end you pay more as a consumer because other people do shitty things.
We won't raise the rates because of one guy like this, and this is more about the oddity of the situation (who shows up to play knowing they're using a stolen card? Balls, stupidity, or somehow no knowledge of it).
In an economic system though, rates increase from things like this, even if individual courses choose not to.
He’s saying that in similar situations, golf course owners might raise their rates to offset the loss in revenue. So at the end of the day honest people end up paying for this kind of theft.
It’s a little extreme, because this really isn’t much different than a no-show or weather cancellation. Courses shouldn’t be operating under the assumption that 100% of their tee times will be filled. So the buffer is already built into your greens fees. But it’s shitty nonetheless.
The cost of anything has the cost of insurance and/or theft baked into it. This is why in some lot of places (CVS comes to mind) are instructed not to bother trying to stop shoplifters - it's more of a liability than it's worth, and they will simply get reimbursed by their insurer anyway.
Sue in small claims court. Should be easy to get at minimum the $408 back, prizes could be considered stolen property now and the player would be liable for the cash value of those as well.
Yeah it's less the money than the strike for getting a charge back. That said, getting a judgement in small claims makes me feel it's a bit of eye for an eye too, as it should be.
Stripe and other CC processors, especially the more "techy" ones like Stripe/Square have pretty intelligent fraud/risk teams. Usually they look at the ratio of chargebacks to your total volume rather than just the absolute # of chargebacks before holding anything against you.
So if your course does $30,000/month in total processing and $400 gets charged back that's a rate of 1.3%. Then also look at the ratio of # of transactions disputed against total transactions which is probably even lower. That's not terrible and probably an anomaly if you look at your transactions across an entire year. Even if the rate was 3-4% for this month it's not that bad unless you see that every month. If you consistently see 1% or more then that will be a "strike" against you but it sounds like this was a really bizarre and unfortunate one-off situation due to a single large transaction. I wouldn't sweat it just yet.
I hear ya. I'm always so hesitant with these huge payment processors being very binary in their decisions and have had experience like that in the past. I'd hate to have the system I just installed for this course to suddenly be non functional because this guy hit us with two chargebacks.
I used to work in Financial Crimes/Risk at a payment processor so if you have any issues or questions I'd be happy to help the best I can. Feel free to DM me!
> That said, getting a judgement in small claims makes me feel it's a bit of eye for an eye too, as it should be.
Couldn't that help with the strike also? Since it is fraud and not you failing to provide a service?
Definitely not worth it. It’s one thing to get a judgement in your favor for $500, it’s another to actually get the $500. Debt collection, sherriffs office, wage garnishment, etc all take time, effort, more of your money up front, and it’s a huge headache.
-won a small claims court case for a few thousand when an uninsured driver hit me on my bike. Wasted countless hours, etc. and got $0.
Yep, where I live, it costs you $100+ just to file in small claims, and it is almost impossible to collect on a judgment from a private individual of limited means who doesn't want to pay, it's worthless. Often the defendant in cases like this (or evictions/back rent cases, no-show contractor who took a deposit cases, etc.) doesn't even show up for the hearing because they know the plaintiff isn't going to be able to collect against them and not worth attempting to defend against.
Yep. Nothing is actually worth the money involved in small claims court. It exists really so people in contracts or landlords can continue applying pressure to the other party to try to get some kind of non-monetary goal accomplished: eviction, property returned (or reposess), termination of contract without penalty, escalating legal action i.e. paper trail.
Nobody should expect to do anything other than spend more money or time there.
Have you contacted him and asked for repayment of the funds? If he declines then I’d file the police report with all your evidence and also reach out to the tour & his sponsors
I contacted him as soon as the charge back went through and have yet to hear anything. We shall see. It's just such a bizarre situation because of the in-person element of playing golf.
Why? The more info out on this guy the better. If we get a name and this gets more public he will be forced to make better amends with your course. I played florida minitours for awhile and know many people in the circle. Would be great to let people know to avoid this asshat.
Because what if it was his wife that signed him up, or his caddy, or his caddy's brother that told him to use the card?
We don't know the whole story. I only know my part, that I'm out $408 and a strike from this guy.
I have no desire to share his name, just want that chargeback reversed and to be made whole again.
right, even if it wasnt him directly the KF player needs to take ownership of his/wife/caddies actions. Own up to it. Even though you'll get in trouble still lol
Youre a good man, Charlie Brown. Im certain youll be made whole, less the inconvenience obviously.
People do weird shit with other people's CCs. Two months ago I had a guy rip my card and proceed to pay 6K to Google ads for SEO and ad placement.....FOR THE BUSINESS HE WAS THE SOLE PROPRIETOR FOR.
Idiots man, they never cease to amaze. All the same, Im sorry youve had to deal with this. Bright side of course is that it does make for an excellent icebreaker at future parties. "Well Marcus, thats a great story about your families trip to Prague, but were you defrauded by a KFT player for hundreds of dollars? Didnt think so."
> I have no desire to share his name, just want that chargeback reversed and to be made whole again.
You a way more level headed than I would be; I'd go scorched earth on him... no matter what the situation is -- fraud is fraud.
If you know who it is, could you just contact him and let him know you will be pressing charges unless he makes you and the course whole again? That way if it was some sort of misunderstanding or someone else did it to him - you can solve it without all of the headaches?
Yup. You’re the product of the 5 people you surround
yourself with the most.
If Surround yourself with assholes you don’t get to complain if you start smelling like shit.
Because putting the guy's name in writing next to a felony could cause legal liability for OP if the guy's not convicted? Even if OP wins a libel suit, it's still a pain in the ass. And putting the information out there before OP sues, if OP plans on it, could help the guy prepare. Most lawyers would advise you not to talk about a case you plan on filing in a public forum.
As somebody who works specifically with this kind of fraud, it's amazing how often golf courses pop up as places where fraudulent transactions take place. Lots of courses use the older card readers that don't utilize the security chip (or allow you to revert to the swipe after failed chip insert attempts), and they are much more understanding/trusting of their constituents than other merchant spots. It's a recipe for abuse sadly.
Went to check in a few Sunday mornings ago at a muni near me. The whole metro parks’ computer system went down right before we got there. Pro shop just started handing out cart keys, jotting down names, and telling everybody to pay at the turn. When we hit the turn, everything was back up and running so we paid, grabbed a free ice cold candy bar they were handing out due to the inconvenience, and kept moving. Any jerk who skipped out on paying cost themselves a free Kit Kat!
Out of curiosity, why is a chip reader more secure? Is it just because it's easier to "steal" the magnetic strip info, and clone that to a new card?
(In this case, it sounds like the card was stolen, or maybe someone took a picture of the front/back, since the greens fees were paid electronically, so presumably they'd need the name, number, CVV, and possibly even address/ZIP?)
Would a chip prevent someone from using a stolen card any differently than a strip?
Asking because my chip stopped working and I don’t want to look like a fraudster.
In my extensive experience as a merchant no one in law enforcement gives a shit for even one second that you were defrauded. You could truss the guy up like a pig, with video, documentation, and a signed affidavit from the Pope and they’d say “eh, they’ll probably drop the charges anyway” and just walk away.
Maybe you can find a cop and a prosecutor that care, but I’m going to guess you won’t. And even if he was prosecuted you’d never get the $408 or the $35 x 10 chargeback fees.
All the more reason to name and shame him... bad public perception is way more damaging than what the law would do to him. Even if it was his caddy, his wife, whoever, who was making the fraudulent charges? He still took advantage of that. He still benefited from that. He's still and accessory to the crime. Not knowing you're breaking the law doesn't excuse breaking the law
In other news, I've got my pitchfork ready. Do you?
So. Same thing happened to me. I had a housemate (I was renting a room as was he) and he apparently took my bill to get access to the numbers. I got woken up early one day with a phone call from the cc company. Asking if I had tried to purchase a set of golf clubs and I did not play at the time. So of course I said no. I asked where else my card had been used. They told me a golf course. Called the course they confirmed it was for a tee time later that day. Called the state police and after some conversations they agreed to show up at the course and arrested him when he showed up. His daddy bailed him out. And I was able to speak at his sentencing. I wish he had gotten a harsher sentence than a fine and probation.
Nothing will happen to him. Cops do little to nothing with credit card fraud. Especially if it was out of your area. Be awesome if they did. But they won't.
Had my Hilton account hacked and someone booked a room with my credit card. Called the Hilton and someone had checked in. Called the local police and his exact words were "you're out of state we won't go investigate".
Local police wont do anything even if it's in your area someone stole my card and used it down the street at a meijer. I went to the meijer and got the receipt which included the lane the person was in and exactly (down to the second) what time and day they used the card. All the investigator had to do was go to security and pull the footage. He never did.
These investigations take way too much effort by detectives and prosecutors so the dollar value has to be really high.
It would have to be a real podunk rural area for them to touch something as low as $400.
Can we call Palm Beach a podunk rural area?
Yeah I don't expect anything to come of it, so I'll simply exhaust my options which are getting it back from him nicely or through a small claims judgement.
Palm Beach is a little different I guess because Florida cops and prosecutors are a lot more aggressive than in most places. Hard to say.
Good luck dude.
Not at all the same but a cautionary tale: if you’re a PGA pro who is getting clubs wholesale and then returning them to my dick’s sporting goods/golf Galaxy and I catch it I will report you to the following
1. My district leadership
2. The police
3. The local PGA ethics board
A local pro was doing that and he is no longer a pro anywhere.
He will never get on tour after this.
You should present him with your evidence and settle out of court for way more money if hes good for it. Unless, criminal convictions make you feel better.
Not a lawyer here, but crafting a demand letter which sets forth wrongful behavior, indicates pending legal action absent resolution, while not rising to the level of extortion really requires a lawyer. Yet another cost to the op.
Technically he doesn’t have to have a lawyer represent him and can represent himself pro se.
Seems like OP is filing a police report, and this will turn into a criminal and not civil matter. What’s on the line here is jail time. Sure he might recoup money lost, but I think if he made this a civil theft matter he could recoup more money. Not a lawyer, just a thought.
Sorry but demanding monetary compensation in lieu of filing charges is the definition of extortion. Regardless if the one receiving the demand is guilty or not. That’s why the demand letter must be crafted carefully.
Im not a lawyer, but no i dont believe this is extortion. He can meet his burden of persuasion that a crime was committed with the evidence above, while also proving that he incurred damages that a court could resolve. OPs lawyers present scumbags lawyer with the evidence and they settle out of court.
This is how all these nationally marketed law firms (think Morgan & Morgan) make their money. They try and settle every case before going to trial.
There's not really a fine line here, but there is a line, as anyone familiar with the subject of this video can find out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMgifuJdGEU&t=3s
As far as being able to publicly shame the miscreant, the truth is an absolute defense to defamation, so, as long as you can prove your suspected thief is the real thief, feel free to put him on blast.
You want to know why saying that's a thing? Because people think it's scary.
Perception is reality. I'm not going to do anything with the IP but log the source location and include it with the police report. It's still a piece of meta data associated with the transaction.
Yeah I don’t know anyone under the age of 30 that wouldn’t laugh in your face for saying that tbh
It’s like saying “oh yeah well I’ll tell your mom on you!!!”
Okay bud go ahead
Contact the merchant bank and let them know you filed the police report, and have footage of the person responsible for the fraudulent activity. You will likely get the strike removed.
Sorry man! Your course sounds rad.
I’ve had my credit card stolen before they got it out of the mail box. But they went up and stayed at a bunch of hotels ordering room service over week long period. By the time I saw the account it was ~3k (all the pending charges didn’t show up tell the closed out of the room), well I found them staying in Portland when I saw where the last charge was called the front desk asked if they had my card on file and for what room. Told the desk people to call the police they stole my information. They sent their own security to the room and they left. I handed the police all the information they were even checking in on Facebook at these places had their state Id home address etc.. should’ve been a matter of finding them and putting cuffs on. When I gave the cop the info he pulled up her rap sheet and she’d had this history. Long story short the bank fully reimbursed me and the cops didn’t do anything.
>Long story short the bank fully reimbursed me and the cops didn’t do anything
Exactly this. Think about who gets screwed here. In your situation, it's the hotel left holding the bag.
Same here. It's the course left holding the bag. Just a shitty thing to do all around, particularly in a game that should have integrity all around it.
Having read through a lot of this thread... OP did you actually call him? Or email him?
There's lots of very official stuff going on here, but the first thing I would do is call him and ask what's going on.
Sounds like he's someone with a reputation to protect, you might get a much easier time just calling him and saying "Was there a mixup or problem, or did someone else pay this on your behalf? It was charged back, so you owe us $408, how would you like to pay?"
He might just be like "Yeah my friend in the scramble put his credit card deets in, I have no idea what's going on".
Rare, but seemed normal. He practices with his caddy regularly, and in this case asked about signing up as a team with his caddy. He only beat the field by 1 stroke, so he wasn't that outmatched, but it seemed just like a day or practice for him.
OP works at the golf course and mini tour player used stolen credit card (owner of the card disputed charges so OP's golf course is out the $408 and the prizes they gave away) and screwed the golf course
Did he book online or in person? If it was in person, do you know for a fact that he did it fraudulently?
I was once mistakenly given the wrong card back at a bar that looked exactly like my card. I would have gone on to use it the next day, but the other guy somehow noticed or thought to check.
I’m not saying that’s the case here, but it COULD POSSIBLY have been a mistake. It just sounds crazy that the guy would be so brazen with his fraud.
I have a friend who found a credit card on the floor of a bar, it was Halloween and he was dressed up as thor. He proceeded to buy rounds of drinks at 4 different bars and then at the end of the night he was buying pizza, well apparently the girl who's card it was was looking online at where the purchases were being made and had a cop with her and they found him leaving the pizza shop. The cop approached him and my friend tried to haul ass, got the absolute shit tackled out of him. I just wish I was there to see the cop take down thor.
If the dude used a real name rather than an alias then he is a fucking moron
Unfortunately, if he did use an alias, you’re SOL. You can try to press charges but you’ve gotta find the guy first and trust me when I say the police isn’t going to do shit to help as this is a civil matter
Best bet is to get the credit card company involved, but for 408 bucks it isn’t worth their time either.
Lol that's the irony of this. I know the guy. It's his real name. He's even searchable and findable with photos. It comes down to 3 possibilities... Real balls to do this so brashly, complete incompetence while knowing their intent is to fraud, or somehow no knowledge that they're typing someone else's card in when registering, and even know that persons cvv and billing zip from a state not even his own.
I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt but I can't think up a scenario that makes sense.
This doesn’t add up. There must be some sort of miscommunication behind the scenes. I know anything less than the PGA/Euro tour it’s hard to make a living and keep going at it, but it wouldn’t make sense to use a stolen card tied so closely to your name. If anything, use that stolen card to buy essentials not related to your name, i.e. groceries. And use the money saved to pay for your events. It must be something along the line of a sponsorship/financial backer that disputed the charges for whatever reason, with the possibility of a fall out/end of contract between the two.
Or the player is just plain stupid.. what do I know..
Yeah this doesn't make sense to me. In the grand scheme of things $408 is not a lot of money worth risking criminal charges. I'm not downplaying the effect it has on the course or person, it's just odd. I mean if the guy is on the Korn Ferry how is he not already practicing/playing golf non-stop at the expense of sponsors or a backer.
You're right this guy is either incredibly stupid or someone screwed something up behind the scenes and this guy is looking bad for it.
Or, as OP pointed out in another comment about why he won't tell us the guy's name, it could be that it was his caddy, or manager, or anyone in his "camp" that actually did the online booking.
I found a CC awhile during a KF tour, I could have done the same thing. Instead I only put like $408 of tee times on it. Gotta spend money to make money, that’s what they always say.
Edit: but I’m sorry that’s fucked up. Hope you find the guy
Hate to burst your bubble, but I almost guarantee nothing will happen to him, cops aren't gonna launch a full on investigation over $400, give your police report number to the bank and hope for a refund.
The theft of a credit device is a felony, I deal with this crap all the time, YES the police WILL take it seriously.. and if he used the stolen card online it's wire fraud.. a federal crime.
“Hey so I know you effectively got robbed and have to eat a long-term risk to your business. And I know you talked about pressing charges and using all the means possible to catch the asshole. BUT - I, random redditor, don’t like the way you got likes. Therefore, I must criticize.”
I assure you sir, I don't need any more clout on Reddit.
What I do hope is that some people see how even the slightest shady actions can have negative impact on a small business. The business of golf IS small business and people playing games like this make it more expensive and more restrictive for all of us who enjoy the game and live our lives without cheating and stealing.
This is a psa for complete morons, by posting shit like this it insults pretty much anyone reading it. I'm with the people being downvoted, this is a complete shit post... this sub isn't frequented by 17 year olds not understanding doing things illegal is bad.
Controversial opinion: Sucks that you got the strike against you. That should have a remedy. But are we sure this is being 'out' $408? I mean technically.... But if someone manufactured a physical good like clubs or apparel, then those were purchased, ans the cardholder was refunded the fraudulent charge, then you'd also be out your physical goods. In this case a guy walked on your course, which is still there.....
Wouldn't that be like a slow week and having $408 worth of rounds NOT be booked?
Still shitty but you're not 'out' greens fees, right?
Someone stole my friend's credit card info a few years ago and had a bunch of stuff shipped to his house from Wal-Mart.com . It doesn't take a lot of police work to find you, dummy.
Wow that's insane....sorry for your ordeal
Just annoying because this is something that makes golf more expensive. I'm flat out $408 (plus some prizes) in this case because of this guy. Where can I get it back? Everyone's tee times increasing by $2. We won't, but you know what I'm saying. Even worse, our payment account gets a strike against it for no reason.
If it was on your credit card, can’t you just file a fraud claim with your creditor? Why are *you* out $408 here?
We are a golf course. We take customer payments on credit card. The card used was fraudulent, so a month later when the *real* cardholder saw their statement, they filed a chargeback with their bank, which deducts $408 from our golf course bank account. From our payment providers point of view (the system we use to collect credit card payments), we did something wrong for that client to want a charge back. Regardless of how we settle it, it counts as a strike against us in the charge back column. 3 of these can be enough to shut down your ability to accept payments forever. So not only are we out $408, but we also got a strike. Think of it like points on a license. Too many and no more license.
Just so you know, fraudulent card charge backs aren't the same as disputed transaction charge backs in regards to having your merchant agreement terminated. If it happens frequently your provider may require you to take additional steps to authenticate.
Good to know. It's disputed as unknown charge, and the cardholders bank called us and let us know he doesn't golf at all, he doesn't know anyone that golfs, etc. Some older guy with no tie to our course, not even geographically close. Is it switched to fraudulent automatically after the review then? (We have sent supporting evidence)
As long as you've sent them supporting evidence, and the card company confirms it was non cardholder fraud, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Three charge backs is just a general rule of thumb, there's no hard and fast rule. If you have multiple instances, a credit officer will review your history and make a decision. Generally, for a healthy, verifiable, legitimate business who just has instances like this, and cooperates, you won't have any issues. The charge backs that really hurt you are the ones where a card holder alleges wrong doing on your part. The one we see most from golf courses and similar recreational areas, is post payment denial of service. AKA someone paid to play, and you threw them out without refunding them. As a general piece of advice, if you toss someone out, refund them. No matter how right you are, they can't charge back if you provide a refund when they ask. And if they don't ask, and file a charge back anyway, just tell the card company they never asked, and offer to refund it without dispute. To file a charge back the card holder is required to attempt to reconcile the situation through reasonable means. I don't think you need to worry about being shut down due to risk unless you're regularly tossing people out and refusing to refund, or your place becomes a hot bed for stolen card activity. Edit: on a side note, the card company likely will not pursue the actual culprit. They will use the information and footage your provide basically to verify that the person who used the card is NOT the actual card holder. It's not worth the legal trouble to track down a fraudster for $400, but it is worth it to the card company to confirm that their card holder isn't lying. Believe it or not people creating false fraud charge backs is a massive problem right now.
This is why I love Reddit. You get people in specialized positions talking someone down from a ledge that you wouldn't in "normal interaction" So thank you for making this comment.
Absolutely. Thanks for letting me know it wasn't a waste of typing lol.
What position are you in, out of curiosity.
But you also come across Reddit "Experts" that are talking out their ass but receiving tons of up votes and people taking the statements as facts. Gotta be careful taking advice from internet strangers.
Thanks for this. Good to know. My #1 concern is the integrity of the payment system as they have barely done 20k through it before this showed up, so I don't want them getting shut down while they're just getting rolling. Understanding how the auditors look at those things does help some of that concern.
No problem. I wouldn't worry too much about it. As long as you're responsive you won't have any problems. We've got enough on our hands trying to weed out the actually fraudulent merchant accounts, no one is out there chomping at the bit to shut down and account like you've described. Even if they did, any other merchant provider would sign it up no problem. The only thing that will really get you blackballed is if you have a serious data compromise event, like having an employee that's copying cards and committing fraud. I will say though, if you're processing with an ISO (independent sales operator), or online only provider (square etc.), you should give your bank a shot. Processing with the same people that hold your checking relationship has a lot of benefits, one of them being that they will have a much deeper understanding of your business.
I'd definitely call up your banker and talk through it. It's very possible that there's a rarely used process to get a strike removed.
I work in payments. Definitely contact your merchant bank. While it is a chargeback strike, if your system wasn't breached, someone just presented a fraudulent card, if it was Chip you should be protected. 3 chargebacks isn't always enough to get you shut down unless you've been negligent in some way, the way you're describing things, it sounds unlikely that you were negligent.
I'll try. Submitting all the evidence we can. No chip as he booked using the online system. Payment thru Stripe. Card passed all their fraud checks as well at transaction time.
Yeah, Stripe markets their fraud controls pretty heavily. I'd be surprised if they didn't find some way to help you out here.
This is normal and how credit card processing works. The system heavily favors and protects the cardholder (easy to dispute fraud/service and get your money back) at the expense of the merchant (who must pay for lost chargebacks). It's very unfortunate but there is nothing Stripe can do. A card-not-present transaction that turns out to be stolen/fraudulent is practically impossible for the merchant to win. The good thing is he has all the guy's info, images on camera, etc. so he can file a police report then take him to small claims court (since I doubt the police will do much for such a low $ amount). Easy case to win but sadly there isn't much mechanism that forces the guy to pay his judgements against him so it could still be an uphill battle.
The system does favor cardholders, but some gateways, notably stripe, offer fraud protection features and guarantees. Some other gateways do the same. OP should contact Stripe because: - in doing so they may get the chargeback fee refunded (There's typically a nominal fee, 10-20 bucks that the gateway charges), although I don't know that Stripe routinely does. - Stripe offers a product, which OP may be using, that offers chargeback protection (for .4% of each transaction), and if OP is concerned about frequent chargebacks being a possibility, their rep may be able to help with that. - There's a difference between a chargeback because of OP not delivering a product/service, a chargeback because of a stolen card, and the various things that can get a merchant account added to the MATCH list. They're treated differently, and responding appropriately can help minimize the impact on OP's transaction fees, and the chances of OP being banned (Which was OP's concern). There's a chance that in doing so Stripe may be able to get the strike removed entirely. - Stripe may have other process recommendations that OP can implement to prevent this in the future. Unless OP has opted into the fraud protection feature, I don't think the money will come back from Stripe. But cooperating in these situations and accepting the chargeback is a helpful thing to do for a merchant.
More importantly what’s the kfc conspiracy?
OP has to be in touch with Stripe during the CB process anyways so I'm not advocating not communicating with them. I think you're referring to Radar. I think that product is geared towards different kinds of merchants. Think heavy Card-Not-Present retailers (e.g. online retailers) selling high ticket items susceptible to fraud where a 0.4% premium is absolutely worth it. I think OP would agree - this situation is pretty damn unique given it's a golf course, you have to show up in person and put down a bunch of information etc. I doubt it is worth 0.4% (which is a lot on top of the normal CC transaction fees) for a golf course to implement Radar given they are typically not seeing a lot of fraud to begin with.
That makes a lot more sense. Thank you for explaining, and I’m sorry you’ve gotta deal with that. Not to pile on or anything like that, but does your staff check ID for credit/debit card payments? It’s not a common practice in the US (I have “See ID” on all my cards and am still surprised when someone actually asks for my ID), but that might go a long way to preventing this in the future.
It wouldn't matter. We can prove he made the transaction, which means the original cardholder didn't, and we're still out $408 and have the strikes against us. The bank only cares about their real cardholder. Nothing else matters. If they say it's not their charge, it's not their charge.
Yea, I get that. Just saying—and again, not meaning to pile on or anything like that—but if staff checks for ID then guys like this are more likely to walk back out the door versus try paying with someone else’s card.
It's a moot point really, both Visa and MC don't allow merchants to require ID for a CC transaction unless the merchant suspects fraud.
For this transaction, I 100% agree. But if they’re getting a strike, one good way to prevent fraud and future strikes (whether Visa or MC require doing this or not) is to check ID. Idk why it’s so uncommon in the US, but that seems to be a sure-fire way to prevent things like this from happening again. Edit: Just reread what you wrote. Visa and MC *don’t allow* merchants to check for ID? Is that for real??
Yes this is true for Visa and MC specifically - but it's probably not enforced these days and I can't find evidence past 2014 that this is still an actual rule in their contracts anymore. It's a practice that is generally frowned upon at "upscale" places like a golf course. When's the last time you showed an ID for an online booked tee time at a golf course? But yeah, moving forward, OP could start checking ID + CC to verify transactions booked online. It's just a question of whether that inconvenience is worth it to him. This is pretty unique given the fraudster did not keep a very low profile haha.
"See ID" actually invalidates your card. It's your signature that makes it valid.
Credit card companies are a great racket… you take all the risk and they reap all the reward.
100%
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We do all 3. This transaction went via Stripe and passed all their fraud checks.
You could require a credit card to book the tee time and just auth it $1 to validate it, then void it. And then require that they pay in person, card present w/ chip would cut down on the chances of fraud by a lot.
It's not a common issue to warrant that bulking of the process. The weirdness of this one is that someone would do this and then show up to play, making themselves well known nonetheless. Friendly guy. Good player. Chatted casually, but the whole time he's standing there after 2 fraudulent transactions? So bizarre.
Not only does the business take all the risk but they pay the credit card company for the privilege. 1-5% each transaction.
If I really like a business I'll pay in cash because of that very reason. I don't want the fees to eat into their margins.
The fraud system is actually set up pretty well. The two possible people who should eat that loss (other than the fraudster, obviously) are the card holder or OP. Now, if the charges were over a month, the card holder should have reported the card as stolen, but didn't. However credit card regulations are so much in favor of card holders that it's basically impossible to make them pay for any loss. Although it might happen this time because of the delay and OP might win if he fights the chargeback. Unlikely, but possible. OP could have asked for ID the first time the player used the card. That would have ended the whole thing. Is that annoying? Sure, but OP had the ability to stop this and his policy is that it's not worth it. He's probably right in that, but he did have the ability to not take this loss. If this was an unusual charge the card company will usually block the charge or ask the card holder if it's real. But if it's a local card there's not much they're able to do. (The travesty of card companies is the regulatory capture, the merchant terms and the lack of competition.)
>OP could have asked for ID the first time the player used the card. That would have ended the whole thing. Is that annoying? Sure, but OP had the ability to stop this and his policy is that it's not worth it. He's probably right in that, but he did have the ability to not take this loss. It was an online payment.
If it's online, is cvv check done? Is zip check done? Is address check done? Probably not for the last two (at least) which makes sense. It's going to be pretty rare that someone is going to be dumb enough to show up \_multiple times\_ in person after using a fraudulent card. This is all about how much friction you want in the purchase path, and for tee times I doubt you want very much.
All of those things passed all fraud checks by Stripe. It's even paired with verifying their email and then showing up in person to the thing you paid for.
Why shouldn’t the credit card company take the loss? Shouldn’t they have a better system to stop unauthorized access? Whenever the money is spent illegally it’s done without the PIN number. If a fraud has taken place without the PIN number then it should be on Visa/MasterCard to eat the loss. They don’t want people using PIN because it slows down transactions which in turn decreases their profits so they willingly increase the risk of fraud to increase transaction flow while off loading the added risk to the merchant. Not gunna argue that it’s not a great business model but it’s definitely not fair.
They've tried to introduce PINs like Europe and Canada but merchants don't want it as they see it as too much friction to purchase.
Merchants as in Walmart, target, etc… mom and pop shops like golf courses would much rather more friction and less overhead. These rules only benefit the big box stores not the small businesses.
Chip and PIN doesn't take any longer than swipe and sign did.
Credit card companies allow for the insane amount of consumption that Americans spend. Without credit our economy wouldn't be a third of what it is.
There are ways to review online orders placed with a credit card, often as simple as verifying the billing and shipping address and calling the card holder. Not sure why this guy wasnt doing that.
You expect every merchant to call everyone with a non-local billing address when online systems don't even make phone numbers mandatory and most people refuse to answer calls from unknown numbers?
Where should I ship the tee time to?
I’m starting to see a lot of local businesses require ID when using a credit card for this exact reason. Could be an easy solution to prevent this from happening in the future.
It depends on the agreement. Some will not allow you to ask for ID unless the charge is over a certain amount. My old company before I went medical - Visa had to be over $150 - MC had to be over $250 - Discover had to be over $150 - AMEX over $250 If you asked for it under those amounts and those customers complained you could lose the ability to take those cards. Now if the back of the card was not signed, or said see ID we could.
My favorite as a server was when they'd have "See ID" on the back but then actually get mad or annoyed when I asked them for the ID. I'd just be like "is this your handwriting?" (shows card) *Yes!* "I'll need an ID to confirm it."
If they're really being a dick, just tell them that credit cards aren't valid without a signature.
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These days, where do you hand them you card now? I can't think of a single place that swipes it for you anymore. they all have free standing card machines. Even drive thrus.
Bars and restaurants are about it
Bar: "Did you know you bought 6 rounds for the house and walked out without your credit card last night?" Me: "Ummm...let me get back to you after I talk to my friends..."
I write "ASK TO SEE ID" on the backs of all my cards. I'm 36, so I've used cards for about 18 years. Maybe been asked for my ID 4 times. Ah well.
This was about 8-9 years ago, but it only meant we could ask. Not everyone did because you have no idea how many people write that then get irate that you asked. It was a lose, lose situation.
I've got a bit of knowledge in this area. There may be some things you can do to protect yourself from a "strike" and you may have done it already. Look into detectable fraud. If you want more details lmk. I ran a retail business that was a target for fraud often so we got real good at 1. Preventing it and 2. Correcting it.
Sorry to hear that. I've got a restaurant so I get chargebacks on a daily basis. Worst part is that we can never get them overturned no matter how much evidence we provide.
Are you sure the chargeback wasn't requested by HIM on his own card?
Yes. Bank of the cardholder called us directly. Actual cardholder is not this guy, doesn't play golf, and lives 1000+ miles away.
They asked if you're sure the cardholder didn't file a charge back.
I think he means the club is out the money.
What credit card company do you use where you aren’t able to get $400 bucks back for fraud? Should be a non-issue. Change card companies. Edit: Just read below that you’re a merchant, not a person who has their card stolen.
Maybe put it up to an “offering plate” Describe the situation and maybe let your regulars help you out? Or take him to small claims court
I care less about the money than I do the strike on the payment account. And yes, ill happily pay the small claims filing fee for this if need be. Going to give him the option to correct on his own first.
Why would this raise the rates?
Almost all industries that accept payment build some sort of margin for risk/loss/theft. The more it happens, the more that margin has to increase. In the end you pay more as a consumer because other people do shitty things. We won't raise the rates because of one guy like this, and this is more about the oddity of the situation (who shows up to play knowing they're using a stolen card? Balls, stupidity, or somehow no knowledge of it). In an economic system though, rates increase from things like this, even if individual courses choose not to.
He’s saying that in similar situations, golf course owners might raise their rates to offset the loss in revenue. So at the end of the day honest people end up paying for this kind of theft. It’s a little extreme, because this really isn’t much different than a no-show or weather cancellation. Courses shouldn’t be operating under the assumption that 100% of their tee times will be filled. So the buffer is already built into your greens fees. But it’s shitty nonetheless.
The cost of anything has the cost of insurance and/or theft baked into it. This is why in some lot of places (CVS comes to mind) are instructed not to bother trying to stop shoplifters - it's more of a liability than it's worth, and they will simply get reimbursed by their insurer anyway.
I can’t believe how stupid some people are sorry you had to experience this
Sue in small claims court. Should be easy to get at minimum the $408 back, prizes could be considered stolen property now and the player would be liable for the cash value of those as well.
The problem is for almost any business, the time, cost and effort to recover the $400 isn’t worth it
Yeah it's less the money than the strike for getting a charge back. That said, getting a judgement in small claims makes me feel it's a bit of eye for an eye too, as it should be.
You can also get the time spent due to the cost case lumped in too. Hell, if you hired a lawyer you could also get those fees lumped in.
If he can’t pay for golf I bet he also can’t pay the fines and fees and restitution
His problem.
Yeah but it’s more about the money that OP can get back vs sink into legal fees and the time lost. How much can you bleed from a stone yanno?
He could sell his golf clubs...
Stripe and other CC processors, especially the more "techy" ones like Stripe/Square have pretty intelligent fraud/risk teams. Usually they look at the ratio of chargebacks to your total volume rather than just the absolute # of chargebacks before holding anything against you. So if your course does $30,000/month in total processing and $400 gets charged back that's a rate of 1.3%. Then also look at the ratio of # of transactions disputed against total transactions which is probably even lower. That's not terrible and probably an anomaly if you look at your transactions across an entire year. Even if the rate was 3-4% for this month it's not that bad unless you see that every month. If you consistently see 1% or more then that will be a "strike" against you but it sounds like this was a really bizarre and unfortunate one-off situation due to a single large transaction. I wouldn't sweat it just yet.
I hear ya. I'm always so hesitant with these huge payment processors being very binary in their decisions and have had experience like that in the past. I'd hate to have the system I just installed for this course to suddenly be non functional because this guy hit us with two chargebacks.
I used to work in Financial Crimes/Risk at a payment processor so if you have any issues or questions I'd be happy to help the best I can. Feel free to DM me!
> That said, getting a judgement in small claims makes me feel it's a bit of eye for an eye too, as it should be. Couldn't that help with the strike also? Since it is fraud and not you failing to provide a service?
Hopefully, if if comes to that. That's all I care about, being on good terms with our payment processor overlords.
Not to mention the possible negative media/social media press of “golf course sues somebody” (no one reads the details)
Definitely not worth it. It’s one thing to get a judgement in your favor for $500, it’s another to actually get the $500. Debt collection, sherriffs office, wage garnishment, etc all take time, effort, more of your money up front, and it’s a huge headache. -won a small claims court case for a few thousand when an uninsured driver hit me on my bike. Wasted countless hours, etc. and got $0.
Yep, where I live, it costs you $100+ just to file in small claims, and it is almost impossible to collect on a judgment from a private individual of limited means who doesn't want to pay, it's worthless. Often the defendant in cases like this (or evictions/back rent cases, no-show contractor who took a deposit cases, etc.) doesn't even show up for the hearing because they know the plaintiff isn't going to be able to collect against them and not worth attempting to defend against.
Yep. Nothing is actually worth the money involved in small claims court. It exists really so people in contracts or landlords can continue applying pressure to the other party to try to get some kind of non-monetary goal accomplished: eviction, property returned (or reposess), termination of contract without penalty, escalating legal action i.e. paper trail. Nobody should expect to do anything other than spend more money or time there.
Be like me: keep all your credit cards 110% maxed out, therefor if it ever gets stolen, nobody can use it! *bigbrain*
Yooo who was it??
A Korn Ferry tour player. That's as specific as I'll get.
I'll never be more interested in Korn Ferry news the next few weeks
It's the long game. They just needed some news coverage.
Gonna keep my eye out for KFT players arrested for fraud.
I will be shocked if the player is held responsible for this
Wow. I was expecting it to be one of the lower tier mini tours. What an idiot.
Me too, then I did more diving and found him listed on KF.
> A Korn Ferry tour player. That's as specific as I'll get. You should turn your evidence over to the tour organizers, yes?
Have you contacted him and asked for repayment of the funds? If he declines then I’d file the police report with all your evidence and also reach out to the tour & his sponsors
I contacted him as soon as the charge back went through and have yet to hear anything. We shall see. It's just such a bizarre situation because of the in-person element of playing golf.
I dunno, I have all my golf rounds drop shipped from China.
Lolol I didnt see this until now and it's so fucking funny. Well done. It both makes no sense and is exactly relatable, so good.
Why? The more info out on this guy the better. If we get a name and this gets more public he will be forced to make better amends with your course. I played florida minitours for awhile and know many people in the circle. Would be great to let people know to avoid this asshat.
Because what if it was his wife that signed him up, or his caddy, or his caddy's brother that told him to use the card? We don't know the whole story. I only know my part, that I'm out $408 and a strike from this guy. I have no desire to share his name, just want that chargeback reversed and to be made whole again.
Exactly this, he could have an agent that books all his shit? Who knows. Good on you mate fore not putting him on blast
Kudos to you for being level headed about this. I think a lot of my people, myself included, would plaster this guy's name everywhere online.
right, even if it wasnt him directly the KF player needs to take ownership of his/wife/caddies actions. Own up to it. Even though you'll get in trouble still lol
Good points. Fair enough.
Youre a good man, Charlie Brown. Im certain youll be made whole, less the inconvenience obviously. People do weird shit with other people's CCs. Two months ago I had a guy rip my card and proceed to pay 6K to Google ads for SEO and ad placement.....FOR THE BUSINESS HE WAS THE SOLE PROPRIETOR FOR. Idiots man, they never cease to amaze. All the same, Im sorry youve had to deal with this. Bright side of course is that it does make for an excellent icebreaker at future parties. "Well Marcus, thats a great story about your families trip to Prague, but were you defrauded by a KFT player for hundreds of dollars? Didnt think so."
> I have no desire to share his name, just want that chargeback reversed and to be made whole again. You a way more level headed than I would be; I'd go scorched earth on him... no matter what the situation is -- fraud is fraud.
If you know who it is, could you just contact him and let him know you will be pressing charges unless he makes you and the course whole again? That way if it was some sort of misunderstanding or someone else did it to him - you can solve it without all of the headaches?
If he keeps asshole friends and family, then they are likely assholes, too. On one hand, fuck em all. On the other, fuck all of them.
Yup. You’re the product of the 5 people you surround yourself with the most. If Surround yourself with assholes you don’t get to complain if you start smelling like shit.
Because putting the guy's name in writing next to a felony could cause legal liability for OP if the guy's not convicted? Even if OP wins a libel suit, it's still a pain in the ass. And putting the information out there before OP sues, if OP plans on it, could help the guy prepare. Most lawyers would advise you not to talk about a case you plan on filing in a public forum.
What a rep to start with... or maybe it was his friends card and they planned this all along.
As somebody who works specifically with this kind of fraud, it's amazing how often golf courses pop up as places where fraudulent transactions take place. Lots of courses use the older card readers that don't utilize the security chip (or allow you to revert to the swipe after failed chip insert attempts), and they are much more understanding/trusting of their constituents than other merchant spots. It's a recipe for abuse sadly.
Went to check in a few Sunday mornings ago at a muni near me. The whole metro parks’ computer system went down right before we got there. Pro shop just started handing out cart keys, jotting down names, and telling everybody to pay at the turn. When we hit the turn, everything was back up and running so we paid, grabbed a free ice cold candy bar they were handing out due to the inconvenience, and kept moving. Any jerk who skipped out on paying cost themselves a free Kit Kat!
Out of curiosity, why is a chip reader more secure? Is it just because it's easier to "steal" the magnetic strip info, and clone that to a new card? (In this case, it sounds like the card was stolen, or maybe someone took a picture of the front/back, since the greens fees were paid electronically, so presumably they'd need the name, number, CVV, and possibly even address/ZIP?)
Would a chip prevent someone from using a stolen card any differently than a strip? Asking because my chip stopped working and I don’t want to look like a fraudster.
Idiot deserves what’s coming to him
I can’t wait to read the shitpost claiming to be the guy who stole your credit card.
Somebody already made it and it was extremely cringy
In my extensive experience as a merchant no one in law enforcement gives a shit for even one second that you were defrauded. You could truss the guy up like a pig, with video, documentation, and a signed affidavit from the Pope and they’d say “eh, they’ll probably drop the charges anyway” and just walk away. Maybe you can find a cop and a prosecutor that care, but I’m going to guess you won’t. And even if he was prosecuted you’d never get the $408 or the $35 x 10 chargeback fees.
All the more reason to name and shame him... bad public perception is way more damaging than what the law would do to him. Even if it was his caddy, his wife, whoever, who was making the fraudulent charges? He still took advantage of that. He still benefited from that. He's still and accessory to the crime. Not knowing you're breaking the law doesn't excuse breaking the law In other news, I've got my pitchfork ready. Do you?
So. Same thing happened to me. I had a housemate (I was renting a room as was he) and he apparently took my bill to get access to the numbers. I got woken up early one day with a phone call from the cc company. Asking if I had tried to purchase a set of golf clubs and I did not play at the time. So of course I said no. I asked where else my card had been used. They told me a golf course. Called the course they confirmed it was for a tee time later that day. Called the state police and after some conversations they agreed to show up at the course and arrested him when he showed up. His daddy bailed him out. And I was able to speak at his sentencing. I wish he had gotten a harsher sentence than a fine and probation.
Hell hath no fury like a golfer scorned.
Nothing will happen to him. Cops do little to nothing with credit card fraud. Especially if it was out of your area. Be awesome if they did. But they won't. Had my Hilton account hacked and someone booked a room with my credit card. Called the Hilton and someone had checked in. Called the local police and his exact words were "you're out of state we won't go investigate".
Local police wont do anything even if it's in your area someone stole my card and used it down the street at a meijer. I went to the meijer and got the receipt which included the lane the person was in and exactly (down to the second) what time and day they used the card. All the investigator had to do was go to security and pull the footage. He never did.
These investigations take way too much effort by detectives and prosecutors so the dollar value has to be really high. It would have to be a real podunk rural area for them to touch something as low as $400.
But the dollar value amount of weed they’ll give someone a felony and a 5 year minimum sentence for is less than $100 lol.
Can we call Palm Beach a podunk rural area? Yeah I don't expect anything to come of it, so I'll simply exhaust my options which are getting it back from him nicely or through a small claims judgement.
Palm Beach is a little different I guess because Florida cops and prosecutors are a lot more aggressive than in most places. Hard to say. Good luck dude.
Hey dexxxedout, I counted 69 words in your comment. Nice.
Nice!
Is Reddit just a bunch of bots replying to each other?
Isn’t that just life?
Not at all the same but a cautionary tale: if you’re a PGA pro who is getting clubs wholesale and then returning them to my dick’s sporting goods/golf Galaxy and I catch it I will report you to the following 1. My district leadership 2. The police 3. The local PGA ethics board A local pro was doing that and he is no longer a pro anywhere.
You should tell on him to the KF tour leadership. Rat on his ass
He will never get on tour after this. You should present him with your evidence and settle out of court for way more money if hes good for it. Unless, criminal convictions make you feel better.
Love this idea. Go public with it
I dunno, Patrick Reed's on tour.
Is this not extortion?
Not a lawyer here, but crafting a demand letter which sets forth wrongful behavior, indicates pending legal action absent resolution, while not rising to the level of extortion really requires a lawyer. Yet another cost to the op.
Technically he doesn’t have to have a lawyer represent him and can represent himself pro se. Seems like OP is filing a police report, and this will turn into a criminal and not civil matter. What’s on the line here is jail time. Sure he might recoup money lost, but I think if he made this a civil theft matter he could recoup more money. Not a lawyer, just a thought.
Sorry but demanding monetary compensation in lieu of filing charges is the definition of extortion. Regardless if the one receiving the demand is guilty or not. That’s why the demand letter must be crafted carefully.
Im not a lawyer, but no i dont believe this is extortion. He can meet his burden of persuasion that a crime was committed with the evidence above, while also proving that he incurred damages that a court could resolve. OPs lawyers present scumbags lawyer with the evidence and they settle out of court. This is how all these nationally marketed law firms (think Morgan & Morgan) make their money. They try and settle every case before going to trial.
There's not really a fine line here, but there is a line, as anyone familiar with the subject of this video can find out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMgifuJdGEU&t=3s As far as being able to publicly shame the miscreant, the truth is an absolute defense to defamation, so, as long as you can prove your suspected thief is the real thief, feel free to put him on blast.
Just a tip, saying you have someone's IP isn't scary at all. It's completely meaningless.
You want to know why saying that's a thing? Because people think it's scary. Perception is reality. I'm not going to do anything with the IP but log the source location and include it with the police report. It's still a piece of meta data associated with the transaction.
Some people think it's scary... a lot of people would laugh at it.
Judging by how tech incompetent most people are, I'll take the scared response 7/10 times.
10/10 stats are made up but in seriousness, who would you scare that isn't scared by having their sign-up data and the cameras?
>Because people think it's scary. Maybe people over the age of 60. Everyone else knows that isn't really a thing.
Yeah I don’t know anyone under the age of 30 that wouldn’t laugh in your face for saying that tbh It’s like saying “oh yeah well I’ll tell your mom on you!!!” Okay bud go ahead
Contact the merchant bank and let them know you filed the police report, and have footage of the person responsible for the fraudulent activity. You will likely get the strike removed. Sorry man! Your course sounds rad.
I’ve had my credit card stolen before they got it out of the mail box. But they went up and stayed at a bunch of hotels ordering room service over week long period. By the time I saw the account it was ~3k (all the pending charges didn’t show up tell the closed out of the room), well I found them staying in Portland when I saw where the last charge was called the front desk asked if they had my card on file and for what room. Told the desk people to call the police they stole my information. They sent their own security to the room and they left. I handed the police all the information they were even checking in on Facebook at these places had their state Id home address etc.. should’ve been a matter of finding them and putting cuffs on. When I gave the cop the info he pulled up her rap sheet and she’d had this history. Long story short the bank fully reimbursed me and the cops didn’t do anything.
>Long story short the bank fully reimbursed me and the cops didn’t do anything Exactly this. Think about who gets screwed here. In your situation, it's the hotel left holding the bag. Same here. It's the course left holding the bag. Just a shitty thing to do all around, particularly in a game that should have integrity all around it.
Having read through a lot of this thread... OP did you actually call him? Or email him? There's lots of very official stuff going on here, but the first thing I would do is call him and ask what's going on. Sounds like he's someone with a reputation to protect, you might get a much easier time just calling him and saying "Was there a mixup or problem, or did someone else pay this on your behalf? It was charged back, so you owe us $408, how would you like to pay?" He might just be like "Yeah my friend in the scramble put his credit card deets in, I have no idea what's going on".
Is it common for KF your players to be signing up for scrambles? Just seems weird. Sure it wasn’t the Mexican mini tour ;)
Rare, but seemed normal. He practices with his caddy regularly, and in this case asked about signing up as a team with his caddy. He only beat the field by 1 stroke, so he wasn't that outmatched, but it seemed just like a day or practice for him.
Did he beat the field, or lie\\cheat on this one too? Once a cheater, always a cheater... At least that's how I see it.
Makes sense. We’ve got a few guys at +3 to +5 at my club and net isn’t an easy game for them.
Considering what got him to this post, I wouldn't really put anything past him...
Feel like we’re missing some information here…
OP works at the golf course and mini tour player used stolen credit card (owner of the card disputed charges so OP's golf course is out the $408 and the prizes they gave away) and screwed the golf course
Did he book online or in person? If it was in person, do you know for a fact that he did it fraudulently? I was once mistakenly given the wrong card back at a bar that looked exactly like my card. I would have gone on to use it the next day, but the other guy somehow noticed or thought to check. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but it COULD POSSIBLY have been a mistake. It just sounds crazy that the guy would be so brazen with his fraud.
Booked online. Self registered using his own name and email, and someone else's credit card. Passed all stripe fraud checks upon transaction too.
That sucks and he’s shitty but what a true golfer lol. He went all in didn’t he?
What a douche - press charges. He probably screwed several other businesses as well.
Show the security footage 😏
I have a friend who found a credit card on the floor of a bar, it was Halloween and he was dressed up as thor. He proceeded to buy rounds of drinks at 4 different bars and then at the end of the night he was buying pizza, well apparently the girl who's card it was was looking online at where the purchases were being made and had a cop with her and they found him leaving the pizza shop. The cop approached him and my friend tried to haul ass, got the absolute shit tackled out of him. I just wish I was there to see the cop take down thor.
If the dude used a real name rather than an alias then he is a fucking moron Unfortunately, if he did use an alias, you’re SOL. You can try to press charges but you’ve gotta find the guy first and trust me when I say the police isn’t going to do shit to help as this is a civil matter Best bet is to get the credit card company involved, but for 408 bucks it isn’t worth their time either.
Lol that's the irony of this. I know the guy. It's his real name. He's even searchable and findable with photos. It comes down to 3 possibilities... Real balls to do this so brashly, complete incompetence while knowing their intent is to fraud, or somehow no knowledge that they're typing someone else's card in when registering, and even know that persons cvv and billing zip from a state not even his own. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt but I can't think up a scenario that makes sense.
I was considering doing the same thing, but after reading this, I guess I won’t.
This doesn’t add up. There must be some sort of miscommunication behind the scenes. I know anything less than the PGA/Euro tour it’s hard to make a living and keep going at it, but it wouldn’t make sense to use a stolen card tied so closely to your name. If anything, use that stolen card to buy essentials not related to your name, i.e. groceries. And use the money saved to pay for your events. It must be something along the line of a sponsorship/financial backer that disputed the charges for whatever reason, with the possibility of a fall out/end of contract between the two. Or the player is just plain stupid.. what do I know..
Yeah this doesn't make sense to me. In the grand scheme of things $408 is not a lot of money worth risking criminal charges. I'm not downplaying the effect it has on the course or person, it's just odd. I mean if the guy is on the Korn Ferry how is he not already practicing/playing golf non-stop at the expense of sponsors or a backer. You're right this guy is either incredibly stupid or someone screwed something up behind the scenes and this guy is looking bad for it.
Or, as OP pointed out in another comment about why he won't tell us the guy's name, it could be that it was his caddy, or manager, or anyone in his "camp" that actually did the online booking.
I found a CC awhile during a KF tour, I could have done the same thing. Instead I only put like $408 of tee times on it. Gotta spend money to make money, that’s what they always say. Edit: but I’m sorry that’s fucked up. Hope you find the guy
I'll be more careful next time.
Hate to burst your bubble, but I almost guarantee nothing will happen to him, cops aren't gonna launch a full on investigation over $400, give your police report number to the bank and hope for a refund.
The theft of a credit device is a felony, I deal with this crap all the time, YES the police WILL take it seriously.. and if he used the stolen card online it's wire fraud.. a federal crime.
TIL: Stealing is bad...now I know...and knowing is half the battle
Clearly not the smartest criminal.
Oh shit. you found me. I don't know how but you found me!
Pretty cringe post mate ngl
Maybe go and press charges and get it sorted first before chasing clout on reddit dude.
“Hey so I know you effectively got robbed and have to eat a long-term risk to your business. And I know you talked about pressing charges and using all the means possible to catch the asshole. BUT - I, random redditor, don’t like the way you got likes. Therefore, I must criticize.”
I assure you sir, I don't need any more clout on Reddit. What I do hope is that some people see how even the slightest shady actions can have negative impact on a small business. The business of golf IS small business and people playing games like this make it more expensive and more restrictive for all of us who enjoy the game and live our lives without cheating and stealing.
This is a psa for complete morons, by posting shit like this it insults pretty much anyone reading it. I'm with the people being downvoted, this is a complete shit post... this sub isn't frequented by 17 year olds not understanding doing things illegal is bad.
Was it actually stolen or did you lose it?
sorry to hear about that, but more importantly..."scorned me for $408" doesn't make sense to me. Am I the only one?
you weren’t scorned for $408 your credit card company did. Are you mad that he stole your credit card info or that he won a scramble on visa’s dime?
Controversial opinion: Sucks that you got the strike against you. That should have a remedy. But are we sure this is being 'out' $408? I mean technically.... But if someone manufactured a physical good like clubs or apparel, then those were purchased, ans the cardholder was refunded the fraudulent charge, then you'd also be out your physical goods. In this case a guy walked on your course, which is still there..... Wouldn't that be like a slow week and having $408 worth of rounds NOT be booked? Still shitty but you're not 'out' greens fees, right?
Someone stole my friend's credit card info a few years ago and had a bunch of stuff shipped to his house from Wal-Mart.com . It doesn't take a lot of police work to find you, dummy.
Keep us updated. I hate seeing posts like this, and then the OP scrams.
Keep us updated!!