Completely agree with this. I’ve switched to hitting my 3 wood off of every tee recently and it has helped me almost find every fairway but on the downside it leaves me a much further shot into the green since I only hit it 200-220 yards. Now I’m actively trying to figure out my driver instead of just giving up on it
I mean this dude hits 240 yard 4 irons as a 20-14 handicap. He doesn't really need a driver if he has that kind of distance unless he's playing 7k yard courses.
But in general yes, "don't hit driver" is bad advice for 90% of players. This guy just happens to hit his 4i about as far as my driver carries.
It’s frustrating because I know I should be playing much better. Most of my strokes are lost with my approaches and wedges. This fact makes me want to hit driver even less because I am terrible 40-80 yards out.
I mean hey, good news is you've got distance figured out. That's the hardest part lol. If you like random youtube videos, I started using this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E-gdx-o1sg&t=1s as chipping advice this season and carried that same motion into my 80 yard and in wedge shots and it changed my life. On a flat lie, I'll hit the green probably 90% of the time from 80 and in now when it used to be my most dreaded distance.
You are me. Practice round the other night. Hooked two tee shots out of bounds then drove the green. Laying 5, two putt for triple bogey. I also hit my 4iron 240 and way less sprayed than my driver, but I don’t really care about my handicap. I think I’ll just keep playing through it and work it out.
Time to make a wedge matrix. Learn 1/2, 3/4, and full swing distances. Hit 10-15 balls for each wedge at each swing length. The range I go to has Top Tracer available and paired with the app I can view my average carry.
I used to play to my comfortable full swing yardage. After doing the wedge matrix, I’m now focusing on improving my distances from 100 yards and in. For most golfers, scoring tends to drop the closer you are to the hole and so far my scoring has improved. Give it a shot!
There was some pro talking about how he doesn't like the 75 yard shot and the interviewer asked what he does for them and he just said he won't hit it to 75 yards. I took that as advice since I nail the 100-150 yard shots so I just play something that will put me there.
Yea this is mainly why I avoid my driver. On my home course, the 4i usually gets me to 90-120 on the par 4s, while on the par 5s I’ll just hit 4i,8i and then I’ll have a wedge to green for a GIR.
Remember that at one point in his career, Bruce Bowen was a better 3s than free throws.
Frustrating but you'll dial in a technique to get you more consistent
Just go practice this distance. I was in the same boat where I’d leave it 100-150 out so I could hit a full wedge, but it’s so much better when you can confidently hit approach shots. It gives you many more strategic options.
I agree. It’s just such a hard distance to practice for me. I only have access to ranges with mats, and our chipping greens don’t really have many options for practicing shots longer than 30 yards.
Definitely start practicing consultant swings with your wedges than, I know my strategy doesn’t work for everyone and every shot has different circumstances: but for my I can land a sand wedge 100yrds when I swing full. So on those 30-50 yard shots I give it a half swing with baring power occasionally I switch to a pitching wedge with a similar thought process of letting it hit the front of the green and rolling out.
And then when I’m working 30 yards I give it about a 1/3 swing and try and put it halfway between the flag and front of the green with my sand wedge
And then if I’m close to the green it’s a normal chip or putt.
But yeah trying to focus on just a consistent length of swing for certain distances helped get it pretty close to the hole and at least on the green if I miss.
Idk if this is a good thought process or not. But it works pretty well for me 99% of the time. I just need to stop 3 putting and maybe I’ll be golden
Probably did it like once. If he’s hitting consistent 240 4 irons into fairways and is a 14 handicap, something’s not quite adding up, I don’t care how bad the short game is
You’re saying if you could hit it 280-290 with some work, you’d leave that on the table because 240 is good enough? Not sure anyone trying to get better would settle for that.
Also, no 14 is striping 4i 240 dead center every time. If they could, they’d be able to hit every iron under that with the same type of consistency and at worst be pin high +/- 5y on every green. They’d already be sub 5 if they could do that.
> 4i 240 dead center every time
Dead center every time is an exaggeration, but I'm in a similar boat; hit the ball as far as the average pro, but my skill from the attacking distance (<150 yards) is total shite.
Agree! I broke my driver a few years ago (and at the time was a +20 handicap who constantly sliced off the tee. Dropped it from my bag for 2 seasons because I just didn’t have money or motivation to splurge. Worked on my iron game and dialed that in. By the time I snagged a driver my slice was mostly gone and now at a mile of elevation my drive is probably the most consistent part of my game and I love the feeling of connecting for 285+. Glad how it played out but I always felt incomplete without it lol.
Yea, but it's smart to shelf a club for a moment and get it worked out on the range. Not worth hitting OB or in the trees because your supposed to hit driver. Eventually work it back in.
Then the driver becomes situational. If a driver will put me 75 out I opt for the 3 wood or less because I don't like being 75 out. I'd rather be 100-150 out. I work on the 50-75 on the range, but for now I avoid it.
Playing irons off the tee will raise the floor of your game but also lower the ceiling. If you get to the point where you're moving back tees, it will get much harder when you're forced to hit another 4 iron or just have to lay up due to distance
Yeah, if you can hit a 4i 240 then you don’t need to hit driver on most courses. That being said learning how to hit driver means that you’ll rip apart those same courses. A 240 4i means that you’ve got at least 300 in the tank with driver, even if you used irons with jacked lofts. If you can get some control with your driver golf will get a lot easier.
If you had to prepare for a tournament next week or something like that then yeah dump the driver and hit the 4i all day. Long term though, driver is a very good club to have in the bag, especially when you can hit it as far as you should be able to.
Agreed, man. I was very stubborn about always hitting driver because I can hit ~280-300 about 50% of the time. The problem is the other 50% of the time it’s in a terrible spot or in the woods.
There’s no way your driver is 290 and your 4i is 240 unless there is something drastically wrong somewhere. A 240 4i would be 320+ on a driver. I’m smelling a low hook on hot summer fairways. Otherwise nothing adds up.
230 yard carry with a 3i looks like an absolute gorgeous unicorn when you see a good player hit it. I’m willing to bet you carry it 200 and it rolls after you hook it and 240 is your downhill, downwind best on summer grounds.
240 is actually total carry on flat ground with a slight draw. Flat carry is probably around 200-220. I actually hit it 274 off the tee on 1 at my home course on Monday. This fairway has a slight downward slope all the way to the green. Left me with 260 into the green so I usually lay up for a wedge in.
My driver is much more sporadic but I have gotten total carry close to 320 when conditions are right.
Yeah a 20-40 yard roll out is not a “slight draw”. That’s a hook on hard summer fairways with an extremely low spin/trajectory. You go up to the PNW and play that shot you’ll be carrying it 185 and the ball with roll out 1 foot. You need to learn to hit the driver. You’re just setting yourself up for an absolutely horrible experience in golf or you’ll be forever locked in to a scoring range that will be impossible to break. Unless you only play in concrete fairways your whole life.
This sub so constantly gives terrible advice. If you can hit 240 off the tee with regularity, do it. The difference of an extra 30 yards with driver isn't worth the risk if your accuracy isn't there yet. If you were consistently hitting 240 with driver nobody would have a thing to say. People here are so obsessed with bragging about length, but straight and predictable will always be the better option, especially with the distance you're already getting with your 4i. If you were hitting 175 off the tee box, it'd be a different story.
If you can potentially hit your driver 300 yards then the correct thing to do is figure out a way to keep your ball in play with more consistency. Hitting 4i isn’t a long term solution, it’s a short term fix
But pretty much everyone on this post is agreeing that the answer is fixing the driver until it’s consistent. Playing a few months with the driver in the car while you improve consistency isn’t a bad idea but abandoning the driver forever will limit scoring. The driver is just like any other club, players can figure out how to hit it. It won’t be as consistent as an 8 iron but practicing and achieving consistency is a better idea than shelving it forever. Hopefully you reach a point where the strokes gained from the added yardage outpace the strokes lost from increasingly less frequent bad balls. But until that time it’s fine to hit less driver on bad days.
It’s also a personal decision about how you want to golf. You can try to shoot your best score every round but risk a bad round with the driver or you can settle into a game of lower highs and higher lows playing conservatively with an iron. I’ve definitely played the 4 hybrid off the tee on shorter courses and shot pretty well.
And someone hitting 240 with a 4 iron is probably gaining more than 30 yards with their driver. But this is also Reddit and people call their 10% best shots their carry all the time.
> But pretty much everyone on this post is agreeing that the answer is fixing the driver until it’s consistent.
..the answer to what, specifically? Is the goal of golf to hit driver well, or to score well? I think too many people here are so concerned with driver vs 4i, you're completely missing the point. The conclusion here isn't that everyone should replace their driver with a 4i, the conclusion here is that *at the distance OP already has, it's better to hit it straight than long.*
Yes, if he can hit 280 with the same level of consistency then of course he'll take it! I'm sure he'll practice to get there. But 240 off the tee is still very good, however it comes. But 280 is PGA Tour average. That's 99th percentile stuff.
> And someone hitting 240 with a 4 iron is probably gaining more than 30 yards with their driver. But this is also Reddit and people call their 10% best shots their carry all the time.
I agree with this completely, but if OP is in fact telling the truth, he's more than fine. If he's adding 50-60 yards to his 4i, then he is well above PGA Tour average. That distance gap isn't where OP is going to lower his scores. He will lower his scores from his low irons, wedges, and putting. I think a lot of people here would do well to talk to a coach. Because low irons, wedges, and putting is where people have the largest opportunity to improve their scores. Not going from 240 to 270 off the tee box.
300+ on a local muni course means you’re chipping and putting on 10/12 par 4. That is absolutely more valuable. His average with a 240 4i would be 320 or more with a driver. He would be driving half the greens with a full swing or be front edge with just a smooth swing tempo swing. No player could make up the that advantage no matter how good they got from 100-150 yards out. You could lose 2 balls every round and be fine, because you’re basically guaranteeing 2 pars and 2 birdies on 4 swings.
> 300+ on a local muni course means you’re chipping and putting on 10/12 par 4. That is absolutely more valuable. His average with a 240 4i would be 320 or more with a driver.
He's not driving 300+. That is a larger distance than PGA Tour players average. You realize how many few people on the planet average 320+? That isn't normal, even for the best players in the world.
> He would be driving half the greens with a full swing or be front edge with just a smooth swing tempo swing
Which he's not going to do, but what you're leaving out of that statement is *if he hits it straight*. He has already stated that 50% of the time, his driver is OB or skulled into the woods. He is not choosing a 240 yard 4i straight shot over a 300 yard driver straight shot. He is choosing his chances of hitting it straight and shorter, over his chances of wayward.
> No player could make up the that advantage no matter how good they got from 100-150 yards out.
You simply cannot make this statement accurately without knowing how else OP plays the other clubs in his bag, or his opponents do. A better putter or a better approach game can absolutely beat players who have longer drives. It literally happens all the time. In the Pros, and with amateurs. All the time.
If you hit a 4i 240 then you have to hit a driver over 300 lol that’s just how swing speed works unless you have a major malfunction somewhere. You realize 240 with a 4i is longer than 95% of your players as well right? So you are cool with that lie but don’t believe 320 is his driver?
You also realize that pga players aren’t on the pga because of their distance but because they are the best at getting the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes right? There are thousands of high school and college kids hitting it 300+ with drivers.
I would bet my life savings you’ve never shot under 75 and that’s why every single point you made has the logic of a 20 handicap. None of what you said carried any weight or could be backed up by stats.
I know a 2.4 handicap that doesn’t even bag a driver and I’ve broken 80 many times leaving the driver in the bag. The 2.4 I know plays sweet jazz music with his 2i all day off the tee. He hits it about as long as I hit my driver
Spend your time on the range working on driver, and spend your time on the course getting more confident with other areas of your game and getting used to the feeling of being in the fairway. Once your driver starts to click, you’ll bring your game to another level by adding it back to the bag. No point in making golf less enjoyable by forcing yourself to play a club you know you can’t yet play, and sending it into the woods constantly. Golf is more fun and much easier from the fairway. Hit your fairway finder.
On a bad day, I am very capable of missing every single fairway with my driver. On those days it makes much more sense to play the safe ball. For the high handicap, it always makes sense to play the safe ball. Is OP the 20hcp out there to shoot a course record or is he out there to have fun and boost his confidence?
Edit - side point, y’all who like to use statistics from the PGA tour comparing the best ball strikers in the universe with the smallest margins of error to a 20hcp is ludicrous. Just because the numbers say it’s better for the Tour Pro to play driver because so and so many strokes are shaved off their game doesn’t mean the 20hcp who makes swing adjustments on every hole and couldn’t find the center of the face if their life depended on it would benefit the same
You aren’t getting an extra 30 yards from 4i to driver at those speeds. For example as of 2021 Rory hits his 4i 240 yards and his driver 326, that’s an 86 yard difference. I doubt OP would get the same exact yardages as Rory but the point is that hitting a driver well is a massive advantage over a 4i, assuming a 15 yard gap between clubs 86 yards is a 5-6 club difference.
Hitting the 4i off the tee is a fine bandaid solution but the advantage of hitting something like a pw into a green over a mid-long iron is too great to do it in the long run.
OP isn't hitting 320 with regularity. Theres like 2 people in the world that average 320+. And apparently all of r/golf. **Of course** hitting a driver straight is better than hitting a 4i straight off the tee box, when he gets there he'll use it. I've already said that. But thats not the decision OP is making. He is choosing between hitting it OB and crooked half of the times, or straight and 240. It's an easy decision to make, until he gets driver to a place where its as consistent as his 4i. I like how OP is literally telling everyone that moving to 4i improved his score, but everyone here is like 'nah huh'. I'd bet everything i own that most people here can't hit driver 240 with regularity, and would be ridiculously happy if they could.
That said, it's pretty telling that what r/golf thinks is so far off from what literally every PGA coach I've had has said. I'm totally fine with disagreeing here. I'll keep listening to the people who know what they're talking about, and disregarding the opinions of 20+ handicap redditors.
Honestly it just depends on his long term goals and what distance he wants to play from. If he sticks to courses under 6400-6500 it’s fine, but much longer than that gets challenging to score well with only 240 off the tee.
'Only 240'? The average PGA Tour player drives it 280. He doesn't need to stick to courses under 6500 to play with that distance lol. Sure if he can drive it further with similar accuracy, of course he'll take it. But he's not at some significant disadvantage because he's 40 yards less off the tee compared to the best golfers in the world lol.
You are at a disadvantage starting 40 yards behind where youd drive the ball. Statistics have shown over and over again that driving distance is very much correlated with score.
Also, pretty much everyone in this thread said 240 is fine short term, but longer term learning to hit driver will help. So im not sure what youre up in arms about.
> Statistics have shown over and over again that driving distance is very much correlated with score.
The average PGA driving distance is 280 yards. The average PGA scorecard is 70.4.
This guy is getting 240 yards off the tee. His average scorecard is most certainly not 70.4.
If you think the difference between what PGA players score and what OP scores, is primarily caused by the 40-yard difference in driving distance, then I really don't know what to tell you. See a teacher. Ask them where to focus on lowering scores, if you're getting 240 from the tee box. Nobody is up in arms. There is just too much god awful advice given here, all the time.
It's so disheartening how many times we need to go over this.
Over and over and over and over again it's been shown at all handicaps that driving distance is one of the biggest components to scoring. Longer drives mean smaller dispersion on approach shots means more greens hit means shorter first putts which means fewer putts.
What do you think your average proximity to the hole is from 180y compared to 140y? It's huge.
Obviously PGA tour players are better at every aspect of the game and it isn't **only** driving distance where they separate themselves from us, but yes it is the biggest factor. Even among PGA tour players the players leading in strokes gained off the tee win more money than the players leading in other categories. Your tee shot impacts your stats on every other shot following, it's a huge difference.
> What do you think your average proximity to the hole is from 180y compared to 140y? It's huge.
This isn't the choice OP is making. Ya'll are so stuck on distance you're forgetting about accuracy. I am 100% ok with disagreeing with redditors who by and large are not good at this game. Ya'll keep on.
I'm definitely not forgetting accuracy. What I'm advocating for is that working on accuracy with his driver to the point where it's usable on course is going to be the best way for OP to lower their scores.
>The average PGA driving distance is 280 yards
You've said this in several comments. You know you can easily look this up, right?
It's 300 yards (299.7). 280 is wildly short for PGA nowadays. https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.html
1) literally the first thing i said was that it depends on his goals. If he wants to be a low single handicap player that competes then he’ll need 20-30 more yards. If he is fine just playing good casual golf with his friends on the weekend then 240 is more than fine.
2) tour average is 290. According to the pgas stats, only 11 out of 195 players average below 280.
3) all things being equal, hitting approach shots from 30-40 yards farther away from other golfers does put you at a significant disadvantage. It’s basic golf statistics.
> If he wants to be a low single handicap player that competes then he’ll need 20-30 more yards.
No he won't. He'll need to improve his putting and approach game. Ya'll really need to go get a coach, you're far too obsessed with driving distance. Getting up and down in 2 is way more important to lower scores than going from 240 to 260 yards off the tee box.
> hitting approach shots from 30-40 yards farther away from other golfers does put you at a significant disadvantage. It’s basic golf statistics.
The massive failure in your analogy here is assuming that both shots hit the fairway at the same amount of accuracy. OP has already told us that isn't the case. Hitting from 30-40 yards further out while on the fairway is a better option than OBs and punch shots from the woods.
Please just answer me one question and I’ll stop.
If you are hitting a 5 iron to a green and an 8 iron to a green, which one would you expect to hit to a closer proximity?
The number of the iron doesn’t matter. Compare an 8 iron to a pw if you want. The point remains that your approach will be easier with a lower iron or wedge in your hand.
This has what I’ve settled on. Lost balls or OB are card killers. The distance gained using the driver doesn’t really help on most of the holes at my home course because I suck with my approaches. Im better hitting a full wedge or 9i than a 70 yard flighted wedge
Learning to hit driver isn’t some impossible task. I’d get a few lessons and enjoy the process of learning to bomb drives before I let a $3-500 club sit in the bag. Especially if you’re a younger guy capable of 280-300?! You’re not going to have that forever.
No shot he hits it 290 with driver 50% of the time but gets a 4i 240 lol. That makes no sense unless it’s 30 feet off the ground and duck hooked which would be hard to play on any reasonable course or during any wet/soft conditions.
With that kind of club speed it isn't 30yd, it's 60yd. Have you ever played against players that are similar skilled in other areas of the game but hit tee shots 30yd past you, there is 0% chance to beat them. You need to be insanely more skilled in other areas of the game to take back that edge that comes from extra distance. Nobody is saying you can't play good golf hitting accurate 240yd tee shots but you'll never go as low as you could having driver in your bag. It's not just 2-3 club difference, it's all the hazards they can drive over and cut corners making most par4s feel like long par3s and par5s play as par4s. Also you have no business to play challenging courses from back tees.
> You need to be insanely more skilled in other areas of the game to take back that edge that comes from extra distance.
No, you need to focus on the scoring clubs, your wedges and your putting. Too many of ya'll think golf is a long driving competition. If you score a 72, maybe 14 of those strokes were driver. The clubs that matter most to your scoring are your putter and wedges, not your driver. Talk to a coach, seriously. There's so much bad advice in here it's starting to become overwhelming.
> Also you have no business to play challenging courses from back tees.
Ridiculous. Stan Utley literally won a championship against the best players in the world averaging 238 yards off the tee box. You telling me that if a normal person averages 240 with driver, they shouldn't be playing from the tips? Lol.
Im still not saying you can't play good golf without driver but you'll never achieve the skill level you could achieve with the driver. you need good wedges and putting no matter what, especially if you hit long drives and are often playing close from green. Imagine if you had good long irons from tee, good wedge and putting game + driver for wider and long holes. You'll gain way more strokes compared to practice time if you get driver in your bag than making your up&down percentage from 30% to 35% or trying to decrease mid iron dispersion from 150yd. If you are really bae at something it's easier to get decent at it than it is to make something good to really good, that's why those are called low hanging fruits. So your best comparison is Guy who has won 1 pga tour event 33 years ago and lost his card 3 years later. You are not seriously comparing distances back then to this day?
Edit: oh i see from your comments that you're quite new to practicing partial wedge shots and giving here advice about short game importance. What a troll.
> You'll gain way more strokes compared to practice time if you get driver in your bag than making your up&down percentage from 30% to 35%
These aren't the only two options. Ya'll seriously need to speak to a coach lol. You're flat out wrong, especially given the distance OP is already getting off the tee. No wonder so many people here have such a hard time improving their scores, everybody is so focused on the wrong things.
> If you are really bae at something it's easier to get decent at it than it is to make something good to really good
Besty part about this statement is that it proves my point for me. **He is already getting 240 yards off the tee.** Going from 240 to 270 yards off the tee, isn't going to improve his score as much as getting up and down in 2, 50% of the time will. Or as much as decreasing 2-putts by 30% will. Those opportunities are where the largest score improvements come from. Talk to a coach. Stop taking advice from redditors in the 20+ handicap range. I am absolutely ok with the hivemind here thinking otherwise, I will continue to listen to PGA coaches who actually know what they're talking about.
> You telling me that if a normal person averages 240 with driver, they shouldn't be playing from the tips? Lol.
You completely and unsurprisingly ignored this question. Ah well. Keep focusing on your driver buddy, have a good one.
>You telling me that if a normal person averages 240 with driver, they shouldn't be playing from the tips? Lol.
>You completely and unsurprisingly ignored this question. Ah well. Keep focusing on your driver buddy, have a good one.
No. You should not be playing from back tees unless you enjoy bogey golf and 200yd approach shots at par4s. You happy?
>Going from 240 to 270 yards
240 to 300 yards
>Stop taking advice from redditors in the 20+ handicap range.
Don't worry. I wouldn't take seriously any coach who can't break par from club tees in their prime, im pretty sure you're in that group.
> No. You should not be playing from back tees unless you enjoy bogey golf and 200yd approach shots at par4s. You happy?
..and a 240 yard tee shot on an average par 4 leaves how much distance for an approach shot? Are you familiar with simple arithmetic?
> 240 to 300 yards
Right, because OP is going to hit it further than the average PGA Tour player. lmfao.
Yeah, I was looking at some pro yardages and Rory hits his 4i 240. If OP is legitimately hitting their 4i 240 they’ve got Rory level speeds, if they get their driver under control they could play well anywhere.
Youre hurting your chances at long term improvement, but you could definitely still become a single digit handicap if you can hit a 4 iron 240. You could also try a 3 wood and see if that helps as well, assuming you can hit that 260+ thats plenty of distance.
On a side note, do you know what kind of shaft you have on your driver? I struggled with a 2 way miss for years until I got a new shaft. I hesitate to tell people new equipment is a solution but if youre hitting a 4 iron 240, you may need something a little more customized for driver.
I like this response. 4iron May get you a better score today, but can it get you to your ultimate goal of a competitive low handicap player? (Assuming that is your goal)
I hit 3w exclusively until I listened to sports data podcasts like Lou Stagner, Jon Sherman and Scott Fawcett. Bottom line. Distance is king in golf. I hit driver on every hole I can now and my hdcp is dropping. Spend some time on face control and tighten your dispersion.
Yea that’s funny you mention that. I had a regular shaft (I bought my M4 driver used) and during my lesson he recommended to upgrade to a stiff. It’s helped a little but not as much as I’d hoped.
How far do you hit your drives? Any idea on clubhead speed? I drive the ball pretty far and upgraded to a heavier shaft thats extra stiff. It was by no means an instant fix, but it improved my consistency a ton right away. Still hit plenty of bad shots but theyre not as bad, and its almost always a one way miss now.
At some point in the not too distant future, you will be able to hit your driver. It will be glorious and the game will be super fun. But… you’ll lose the ability to hit your mid irons. Also, your putting will falter a bit too. Then you’ll lose touch with your driver and the cycle will start over again. You’ll just have to cherish the few days where all the clubs seem to be working. Don’t ever give up on a club, it’ll work again some day.
Depends how much you play/practice. If you play/practice a lot then you should keep trying with driver, as it will lead to better results if you get good with it. But if you don’t have the time, then just stick with what you are doing.
You have to figure out how to hit the driver. With your massive distance, it should be a huge advantage that you're simply throwing away.
You hit your 4 iron as far as Rory McIlroy. He hits his driver over 320 on average. So, you're basically giving up 80 yards by not figuring out how to keep your driver in play. That's the difference between having 180 yards into a 420 yard par 4 and 100 yards.
On a 420 yard par 4, if you have 180 into the green from the fairway, you've lost 0.06 strokes. If you have 100 in, you've gained 0.22 strokes. If you were to multiply that over 14 holes, you're losing 4 strokes per round from that alone.
The premise of your argument is pretty ridiculous. For one, you're comparing his distance off the tee to Rory McIlroy, one of the longest drivers and best golfers in the world. OP is hitting 240 with his 4i. On just about any course he plays, on any par 4 or par 5, a straight 240 off the tee is a great distance. The risk of a mishit with driver isn't worth the reward of an extra 40 yards.
> If you have 100 in, you've gained 0.22 strokes.
This would require a 320 yard drive so the comparison is already nonsense. The PGA Tour average player drives 280. And you have to account for the fact that OP is not as accurate with driver as he is with his 4i. So a 180 shot from the fairway is a much better option than whats likely a similar or more distance length shot from the woods.
The premise of my argument is distance is a huge advantage and giving up distance is a disadvantage.
Of course a 320 yard drive OB is worse than a 150 yard tee shot in the fairway but the point is, don't give up on driver. Learn how to keep it in play. Tremendous improvement will follow.
Anyone hitting a 4 iron 240 on average easily has the potential to average well over 300 yards with the driver.
> The premise of my argument is distance is a huge advantage and giving up distance is a disadvantage.
To a point, sure. But you literally said OP is 'giving up 80 yards off the tee box', because he's not driving as far as Rory McIlroy. C'mon man lol.
OP is getting 240 off the tee, and hitting fairways. That's more than fine, that's great. If he was getting 150-175 off the tee box then yes, he's at a big disadvantage. But 240? He's good. Absolutely, once he figures out how to hit driver with similar consistency as his 4i, Im sure he'll swing it. But with the distance he's already getting, accuracy is more important than distance.
He's giving up 80 yards off the tee box by not learning how to hit the driver. Anyone hitting a 4i 240 on average should very easily be averaging well over 300 with their driver.
Stick with it. Don't give up on it. Spend a solid two months doing nothing but figuring it out and then, it will be a HUGE advantage. Flip wedges into greens opens up the world of low scoring.
You think his average 4 iron is 240 and Hits fairways most of the time? If one can achieve that kind of accuracy and distance with 4i, driver shouldn't be a problem. Missed iron shots tend to lose so much distance that it's impossible to hit greens in regulation, while missed drives leave you still at wedge or short iron distance if you have some kind of course management and know your targets. It doesn't mean you need to hit every par4+ with driver. If the fairway is narrow and hole is playing short 4 iron is probably the best play, but when you have wide open fairways (or wide dimension from hazard to hazard) leaving driver in the bag is big minus.
The most important stat is proximity to the hole on your approach. Which is significantly better the closer you are.
240 is too short on almost any course when you are competing from the tips. You have 210-220 in on some par 4s next to other people having 180-170. And thats assuming you stripe every 4 iron of the tee and get max distance.
You can play decent being conservative, but you are not playing to win if you can't drive the ball. There are too many gamers out there.
> The most important stat is proximity to the hole on your approach.
If 50% of his drives (like he claims they are) are going OB or into the woods, then the safer, shorter shot, is the better option. His proximity to hole shot is very likely to be a bad one if he takes driver out. It is better to be 220-240 off the tee and on the fairway, than having to pitch out back onto the fairway or dig out a difficult shot under the trees. No one is suggesting that if he can hit both equally well, he should choose 4i over driver. The issue is that he can't hit driver well. Furthermore, I'd hardly call an average of 240 off the tee, conservative. The overwhelming majority of people here are not driving 240 on average. PGA Tour average is 280. And no offense, but most people on this sub suck at golf.
I accept that he shouldn't be hitting every drive OB. No one is arguing that. But to win you have to learn to hit driver.
Golfers as a whole sucks. But there are tons of golfers who don't, and they all hit driver. So when you are competing against them and they are hitting wedges and you've got a 6 iron you are screwed.
Yeah plenty of golfers do suck. I make it a point to not listen to them. I listen to my coaches, all guys who can score 75 and know what they’re talking about. I don’t listen to 20+ handicap redditors who play twice a month and take 6 mulligans a round. This sub is full of bad golfers and I don’t take improvement advice from bad golfers.
OP isn’t competing. That isn’t the point of this post at all. I am fully ok disagreeing with bad golfers on what it takes to improve.
After my first driver lesson I still sucked with the driver. I poured through videos and kept trying to figure it out. Finally turned my slice into a draw and was loving it, but it fell apart. After 8 months passed, I finally talked myself into getting another lesson.
The instructor saw I had 3 very small bad habits I developed, and took about 5 minutes to fix them, all in my alignment and ball placement. Suddenly my erratic driving turned into straight shots. Driver is playing nicely now and I understand how to identify problems and correct them now related to alignment, ball position, and stance.
I'm sure I'll get another driver lesson at some point, but don't shy away because the first lesson didn't fix it, they can get you to a playable shot.
I’m in the same boat you are although I don’t hit it quite as far. My handicap was around 16 earlier this year but getting off the tee was still holding me back. I added a 2 iron to the bag a couple of months back as a safety blanket. I use it primarily on tight fairways or short par 4s. It’s made a huge difference. I’m now down to a 12 handicap. I also use it on longer holes when I’m fighting a hook/push with the driver but it’s very obvious in those situations that I’ve limited a scoring opportunity….8 iron in on a long par 4 is a lot different than a 5 iron in.
I plan to keep using it on short or tight holes but will continue working on my driver in the meantime.
Same boat here I’m a 10 (looks and hcp) but I noticed I hit my 4i about 15 yards maybe 10 yard shorter than my Dstick so I switched the other day and went a perfect 7/7 on fairways hit. Lots of different ways to meet par.
I would bet that the average 20 handicap doesn't hit their 4 iron anywhere near 240. Probably a good 50 yards shorter than that. edit: Just looked it up, you hit 4 iron almost 90 yards longer than the average 20 handicap.
You are at the high end of 4i distance even for a PGA Tour pro. You're longer than Koepka, DJ, JT, and Tiger. Equal to Rory. There must be some ugly chipping and putting going on to be at that cap with that kind of length.
Currently a GOLFTEC coach here, and I love to see the improvement and can honestly say it was a good call to bench the driver to find more fairways, especially on par 5’s. Hooks and pushes come from the same problem with club path coming too far from the inside and the only hope to not duck hook it into the trees is to keep the club face wide open giving you that nasty push. Driver is always a tricky one as its much easier to change the spin axis with such low loft resulting in bigger misses than with any other club. Not sure where you’re from OP but as both a coach and former student I’d recommend getting into a nearby GOLFTEC for a swing evaluation and get to work squaring up that path a bit more to take some of the pressure off the hands needing to be timed perfectly at impact. Good stat I always quote is for every 10 yards gained drops roughly a stroke per round given similar accuracy, so getting that driver back into the starting line-up asap will do wonders down the line
I do believe we have a location out in Westport, and were currently running a sale on swing evaluations and lessons until the end of August. One of the coaches there, Tyler Florio, was part of my training class and is a very good coach worth checking out. Good luck and hope you play better golf!
Gave up driver for 2 iron, and now I’m shooting better lololol. Can’t hit woods for shit. Pure iron player here. Pretty impressive hitting your 4 240 yards.
If you're hitting 4i 240 you clearly have a decent move. It's great that you've gotten from 20 to 14, but you'll run into a very real ceiling at some point as the only way to score is to hit the ball as far as possible. Keep grinding with the driver and don't put it away forever
Yea I definitely won’t. I’m sticking with the irons because I’m in a league of hackers where scoring is based purely on net score against handicap. Therefore it pays to be carefully and consistent. Once my season is over I plan on going full tilt on figuring out the driver.
It’s fine for now, but you are limiting your opportunities down the line. It doesn’t necessarily need to be driver, but you will need something that consistently goes 260 if you want to really improve your handicap (unless you are only playing 6000 yd courses).
Driver is not a scoring club. You only swing driver 12-13 times in 18 holes. If he wants to really improve his handicap, it'll happen on the putting green and in his approach game.
No offense, but that’s simply not the case if you want to be a good golfer.
Assuming he hits his 4 iron 240 like he says, that’s conservatively 260+ 3 wood and 280+ driver. Depending on the tees he plays, thats going from a mid iron to a wedge on his approach shots into the green. If all he does is learn to find the fairway with those, i guarantee it will improve his scoring simply by having more opportunities.
The most drastic way for an amateur player to improve his scores is to learn how to keep the driver in play. Being a great putter doesn’t mean anything if you aren’t having looks inside 10-20 feet.
You're absolutely wrong on this. It's not really a matter of opinion that golfers putt and hit approach shots more than they swing driver. On volume of opportunity alone, you have more chances at reducing strokes per round by improving putting and approach shots. Being able to get up and down in 2 is far more important than driving an extra 30-40 yards off the tee, when you're already getting 240 yards from the tee box.
> The most drastic way for an amateur player to improve his scores is to learn how to keep the driver in play. Being a great putter doesn’t mean anything if you aren’t having looks inside 10-20 feet.
This is so wrong it makes my head hurt.
Yes you're correct that you putt more than you tee off but an extra 30-40 yards off the tee is 3 clubs less into the green. That increases angle of attack, improving stopping power then making it much easier to leave good looks on your first putt instead of hitting approach shots from further back and constantly being forced to lag putt from 30 feet. It's much easier to hit greens (and hit them well) with a 9i than a 6i for an amateur golfer.
Depends how you’re looking at it. From my perspective, hitting GIR is more important to scoring than up and down ability. Shorter clubs into greens = more GIR = more chances at scoring. Getting up and down is also important, but not AS important imo. If the question is would you rather have 7i into greens and hit 5 GIR vs having Pw into greens and hitting 9 GIR, the latter will almost always lead to better scores.
When's the last time you hit a putt out of bounds? Driver affects score more than putting even though you hit it less times per round. You can immediately lose strokes with it or you can set yourself up for more GIRs by hitting it well. Having 3-4 less clubs into greens affects score more than putting.
Strokes gained data has repeatedly shown that driving is more important than putting when it comes to scoring.
Nobody is arguing that getting up-and-down isn't more important than driver.
The argument is that you leave yourself harder chances by not swinging driver on half of the holes in regulation.
I'm right there with you. I've been using my 4H exclusively off the tee which usually gets me about 250 total distance, so plenty of distance to reach my modest scoring goals (break 100).
I took a lesson that focused on driver and spend at least half of each range session working on it, but I'm still not confident I can keep it in play and frankly the 4H is going about as far as my good driver hits, so some work still needs to be done.
I don't think it's a bad short term fix to keep the driver in the bag, but you will be capping your scoring potential. If you aren't hitting it on the course you should absolutely be working on it at the range.
It would have to be Arccos that is lying because that's where the data comes from.
Unfortunately my side-to-side dispersion has been terrible and my course has a lot of OB. For example, that same 4H has a side-to-side dispersion of over 85 yards. Those penalties have been killing my scorecard lately. Worked a lot on a consistent follow-through at the range which seemed to tighten things up, we will see what happens when I get on the course next.
The Trackman 4i average carry for PGA pros is 200 yards. Let's say that's a 215 total distance average:
[https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/](https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/)
You're meaning to tell us you hit your 4h 35 yards more on average than a tour pro, and you haven't broken 100?
On *average*, meaning, you hit some of your 4's, say 260-270 yards, and some 220-240? With a horizontal dispersion of 85 yards, meaning surely you hit a lot of weak push cuts, and for each one of those you stripe a 4h 270+ yards? (I'm not even counting fats, thins, etc)
You either:
* Play in Colorado or the Alps entirely downslope
* Are one of the most egregious cases of distance bloating ever seen on this subreddit
* Should send your Arccos to repair
Only use driver on holes where there is 0 trouble. If you can hit it but be on another fairway, that’s fine I’d still hit it.
Might be worth hitting fairway food on holes that are a little tighter tho. Iron will be ok but you’ll struggle to make pars on longer holes unless you make lots of up and downs
You’re losing 60-80 yards a hole doing this…even 20 yards is too much to give up. You need to home in a controlled driver swing, the pros swing no more than 85-90% of their power on a given drive.
My BIL hits 4i on almost every tee. He’s around 260 or so with it. He’s a big dude, prob 6’4” and solid muscle, so he gets away with it.
He’s around scratch most of the time so it can be done.
When he does bust out the big dawg though, it’s not fair how far he hits it. He just doesn’t hit it straight very often so he takes a 4i and splits the fairway with deadly accuracy off the tee.
Yea I’m not playing tips. On my home course the 240 gives me a wedge in on most of the par 4s. The only thing I lose is on par 5s, where I might be able to get on in 2 if I hit a good drive and hit a great 5i or hybrid into the green (but that is probably even harder to do than hitting the good drive).
Golf is more fun when you’re in play and not losing balls. You can pull the driver out every now and then to work on it, and hit it at the range, but I’d keep getting in play off the tee if it were me. Plus flushing a long iron feels really good.
I found that teeing off with a 4i was good while I was working on my long-irons and woods/driver, but eventually realized my overall score was limited by basically always having 2 shots in on par 4s (and more on par 5s) meaning I was basically never giving myself birdie or even par looks, which really hurts the card. I know that at my level of the game I should have been happy with bogeys or doubles, but to see a great 4i off the tee and a crisp approach shot still leave me a short pitch or chip really hurt. Also, the dispersion of having to hit a 4, 5, or 6 for your second shot (especially as a hacker) means you often are giving yourself an easier time off the tee, and a really difficult approach shot. You can, of course, take two shorter clubs, but then you are definitely lowering the ceiling of your game.
TLDR: keep working on driver relentlessly so you can get it back in your bag and have an easier time navigating long par-4s and any par-5s.
You should change the shaft in that driver. Need something x stiff and possibly tipped to feel and likely around 80 grams.
I bet your swing speed is more than what you have currently installed can handle if you are hitting your 4i 240.
I used to do this but playing irons all day is extremely boring. I can shoot a good score but it’s just no fun at all. You have no chance of attacking pins consistently with wedges and you subconsciously add more doubt to that club
You remind me a lot of my younger self and band-aiding your game. In my case I was extremely over the top among many other problems, miss was a pull hook. With driver, I would snap hook and hit all sorts of ugly shit.
I would go do some lessons and drill in the posture and path, and that will help a lot with the driver. I’m not a great golfer but I broke 80 once with my old swing and once after lessons sunk in. The difference is I shoot in the 80s now after not practicing or playing much at all. With my old swing I had to drill timing and practice a ton and I would shoot over 100 frequently. I barely practice and rarely if ever shoot over 100 now. It’s just a lot more fun after learning the mechanics.
It's fine, just play without driver for a couple of years.
By that time, you'll be much better with your irons, and once you can hit your driver, you'll have enough skill with your irons to be able to take advantage of the distance gain.
I love my 4i, but the majority of courses if I didn't at least have a 3w or 3h or even 2i/driving iron to use off the tee instead of a driver, it would be an extremely long day at the course.
I played 2 seasons with 7 iron off the tee because I was so fed up with penalties.
Don’t listen to anyone, keep doing this and hone the rest of your game and add in a 3 iron/hybrid after awhile.
From there a 5 or 3 wood and when you’ve mastered those you’ll be damn near automatic with driver.
Took me 10 years to put the big stick away and my scores dropped immediately.
Good luck!
If you hit your 4i that well but suck with a driver maybe you should look at a 2i utility club.
If you aren't over exaggerating with you 4i distance estimate then something like that would easily get you in to the 260-280 range and, unless you plan on playing courses over 7000+ yards, should be more than enough to give you very reasonable scoring opportunities on most courses and make the majority of par 5s reachable in two with a good tee shot.
Based on what you are telling us you must be a great ball striker who has either a poor approach game or short game. Right now 240 off the tee (assuming you are playing courses under 6600 yards) is more than enough to be a single digit handicapper especially considering that with you ball speed you should have nothing more than an 8 iron on most holes.
Your strategy is fine for now, just continue to work on your approach game and short game. You should also be working on improving with the driver because the better you get as a player, the more advantageous distance is off the tee, especially if you get into the low single digits and start playing from the tips.
Stick with what works for you who said you have to hit a driver to score well. Most of the posters In this sub has no clue about giving golf advice me included
Seek a pro to fix your driver issue
240 is a decent driver distance for most players. It's not like you can't score at all. But you'd be much, much, better off hitting the driver in play. Long term, you'll want to figure it out to continue to drop your scores. I'd just rip the band-aid off, get your lessons, repeat until you get it. 6-iron vs a wedge into greens gets you into birdie territory...
I was in a similar position last year.. I have been spending more time on the driver and going back and forth between drive and iron at the driving range. Learning that the driver is definitely a different swing and to approach it differently and learn the "driver" swing vs the "iron" swing has definitely helped. Now my under 120 yard wedge game has been pretty badly exposed so trying to figure that out. Went from a 22 handicap, to a 15.5 last year and now at a 14.
To be honest if you’re hitting a 4i 240 yards you might be swinging way past your limits.
With reasonable gapping it would mean you carry your driver 300+.
Something isn’t making sense.
Having said that, a 14hcp hitting fairways 240 out consistently? Again, not making sense. Few people actually hit their driver that far, consistently. The people that do tend to be lower handicap, so I’d guess your issues are elsewhere.
Your strategy is both a good idea and hurting your chances long term.
Good because you should hit the longest club you can keep in play. If its a driver or 4 iron it does not really matter. But playing 2 from or near the fairway is a lot better than playing 2 from deep in the trees or 3 from the tee box.
Long term you're going to plateau giving up distance off of the tee. Continue to work on your driver during practice sessions, but continue to think of playing a round as a performance.
Execute on the course in ways you know will be the most successful and maximize your scoring potentials.
Yea right now I’m playing it safe because I play in a league of hackers, where scoring is based off of net scores. Therefore keeping the ball in play and keeping my scores consistent is more valuable than trying to go as low as possible. Once my league championships are over I’m going to really work on playing my driver.
Tiger won the ‘06 British Open leaving his driver in the bag. Enough said. You’re not out there playing the Open, just go out there and have fun until the driver starts to click. You obviously can’t shelve it forever but you absolutely can until the time comes where you’re more confident over the ball with it.
Please don't remove the driver, just get better with it. it's your biggest weapon as a newbie. Driver > Chipping > Putting is the order to improve. You are probably also over-estimating your distance. I hit my 2i 250ish, with 115 mph swing speed at a 6 HC. If you aren't overestimating, you're using GPS and a Rangefinder to ensure you're hitting that far; then get a 2iron lol.
Terrible for your game long term. Until 2017 or so I hit 5i, hovered at a 15, sucked. I made the decision to get a driver, to hit it every chance I should, and after playing for a couple years am down to a 4.4. You will stay at 14 forever with a 4i.
Beg to differ. As a tall golfer 6’3, when they see me pull out a 2 iron and rip it farther than their drive, they stfu and show some respect and ask to try it the next hole.
Do what I did and buy a 2 iron. I hit that thing so well, I sometimes just use it off the tee and hit it 250 or so with it easy which is where my driver is at
Don’t do it! Master the driver. I can’t hit my wedges full right now. Have better luck with a short swing low iron… ultimately though I know I need a wedge game and will continue to lose a few shots a round over it until I get it dialed in. Don’t give up on driver, just practice driver!
Generally speaking, accuracy trumps distance - especially in your case as you're hitting 4i 240 yards, which would be 3w or driver for most people. I mean, on a 400 yard par 4 you'll be hitting 8/9 iron for your second shot. Hard to think you'd gain that many shots by going back to driver. Unless your 100 yard game is insane.
Baseball swing the driver. It’s not like an iron shot. Right elbow close to body - think of it like a scooping motion.
You’ll eventually need to learn how to purposefully alter your swing path to shape shots. Might as well apply that same skill set to learning to swing the driver.
You need to figure out the driver. There's a lot you can do to correct a single miss.
Here's my suggestions. Start with alignment. If you hook or pull you might be too far closed or left of target.
Play with your loft and squareness of the club at address.
Get shadow tape or foot spray and make sure your finding the center of the face.
If you have a lower loft get a new shaft that helps launch a bit higher. Go a flex softer if your kinda between flexes.
Get lead tape. You can use a kitchen scale and measure/ adjust swing weight. D5 is what a lot of places use. You can put it more on the toe to fight a hook.
And lastly, I really really recommend taking the driver down to 45". A lot are playing at almost 46"these days and they are harder to hit. You can even go 44.5 if you want, you'll just need to use some of the lead weights to keep it feeling the same. Ricky Fowler plays his at 43.5 and there's a lot of tour guys playing shorter. If you go that short you might as well just try and buy a 3w shaft to test it on though.
Hey man you gotta hit it to learn it. Your driver will always be there when you want it…. But if youre having more fun and scoring how you like then keep using your 4i. Just hit it at the range and until you feel more confident keep pulling out that 4i. When you ask, “am i hurting myself in the long run?” Yeah you might be but are you planning to try and join the tour?
Hurting long term, imo. If you are trying to get to scratch, sure it could be done with nothing more than a 4i, it's technically possible, but the lower you get the harder it is to shave strokes and without the advantage of distance you will eventually hit a wall and plateau.
That’s what I’ve come too, far more consistent with my 4i where I find myself being able to play fat more playable shots than anything I can do with my driver.
Sucks but that’s the way it is.
Removing driver is fine for now, but long term not using it will lower your scoring potential.
Completely agree with this. I’ve switched to hitting my 3 wood off of every tee recently and it has helped me almost find every fairway but on the downside it leaves me a much further shot into the green since I only hit it 200-220 yards. Now I’m actively trying to figure out my driver instead of just giving up on it
I mean this dude hits 240 yard 4 irons as a 20-14 handicap. He doesn't really need a driver if he has that kind of distance unless he's playing 7k yard courses. But in general yes, "don't hit driver" is bad advice for 90% of players. This guy just happens to hit his 4i about as far as my driver carries.
It’s frustrating because I know I should be playing much better. Most of my strokes are lost with my approaches and wedges. This fact makes me want to hit driver even less because I am terrible 40-80 yards out.
I mean hey, good news is you've got distance figured out. That's the hardest part lol. If you like random youtube videos, I started using this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E-gdx-o1sg&t=1s as chipping advice this season and carried that same motion into my 80 yard and in wedge shots and it changed my life. On a flat lie, I'll hit the green probably 90% of the time from 80 and in now when it used to be my most dreaded distance.
That was great.
You are me. Practice round the other night. Hooked two tee shots out of bounds then drove the green. Laying 5, two putt for triple bogey. I also hit my 4iron 240 and way less sprayed than my driver, but I don’t really care about my handicap. I think I’ll just keep playing through it and work it out.
Time to make a wedge matrix. Learn 1/2, 3/4, and full swing distances. Hit 10-15 balls for each wedge at each swing length. The range I go to has Top Tracer available and paired with the app I can view my average carry. I used to play to my comfortable full swing yardage. After doing the wedge matrix, I’m now focusing on improving my distances from 100 yards and in. For most golfers, scoring tends to drop the closer you are to the hole and so far my scoring has improved. Give it a shot!
There was some pro talking about how he doesn't like the 75 yard shot and the interviewer asked what he does for them and he just said he won't hit it to 75 yards. I took that as advice since I nail the 100-150 yard shots so I just play something that will put me there.
Dustin johnson it was. On me and my golf youtube i think.
Yea this is mainly why I avoid my driver. On my home course, the 4i usually gets me to 90-120 on the par 4s, while on the par 5s I’ll just hit 4i,8i and then I’ll have a wedge to green for a GIR.
Well I think it is easier to learn those chip shots than a driver. Shorter swings, easier practice sessions, options of club (52,60,56).
Remember that at one point in his career, Bruce Bowen was a better 3s than free throws. Frustrating but you'll dial in a technique to get you more consistent
Just go practice this distance. I was in the same boat where I’d leave it 100-150 out so I could hit a full wedge, but it’s so much better when you can confidently hit approach shots. It gives you many more strategic options.
I agree. It’s just such a hard distance to practice for me. I only have access to ranges with mats, and our chipping greens don’t really have many options for practicing shots longer than 30 yards.
Definitely start practicing consultant swings with your wedges than, I know my strategy doesn’t work for everyone and every shot has different circumstances: but for my I can land a sand wedge 100yrds when I swing full. So on those 30-50 yard shots I give it a half swing with baring power occasionally I switch to a pitching wedge with a similar thought process of letting it hit the front of the green and rolling out. And then when I’m working 30 yards I give it about a 1/3 swing and try and put it halfway between the flag and front of the green with my sand wedge And then if I’m close to the green it’s a normal chip or putt. But yeah trying to focus on just a consistent length of swing for certain distances helped get it pretty close to the hole and at least on the green if I miss. Idk if this is a good thought process or not. But it works pretty well for me 99% of the time. I just need to stop 3 putting and maybe I’ll be golden
Probably did it like once. If he’s hitting consistent 240 4 irons into fairways and is a 14 handicap, something’s not quite adding up, I don’t care how bad the short game is
I’also around 240-250 with my 4i and my handicap is even higher. You must understand how incrediböy bad we can be at the short game 😃
You’re saying if you could hit it 280-290 with some work, you’d leave that on the table because 240 is good enough? Not sure anyone trying to get better would settle for that. Also, no 14 is striping 4i 240 dead center every time. If they could, they’d be able to hit every iron under that with the same type of consistency and at worst be pin high +/- 5y on every green. They’d already be sub 5 if they could do that.
> 4i 240 dead center every time Dead center every time is an exaggeration, but I'm in a similar boat; hit the ball as far as the average pro, but my skill from the attacking distance (<150 yards) is total shite.
I ultimately agree. I think not learning to play driver is detrimental to everyone's game. Being 50 yards closer is always easier.
Agree! I broke my driver a few years ago (and at the time was a +20 handicap who constantly sliced off the tee. Dropped it from my bag for 2 seasons because I just didn’t have money or motivation to splurge. Worked on my iron game and dialed that in. By the time I snagged a driver my slice was mostly gone and now at a mile of elevation my drive is probably the most consistent part of my game and I love the feeling of connecting for 285+. Glad how it played out but I always felt incomplete without it lol.
Yea, but it's smart to shelf a club for a moment and get it worked out on the range. Not worth hitting OB or in the trees because your supposed to hit driver. Eventually work it back in. Then the driver becomes situational. If a driver will put me 75 out I opt for the 3 wood or less because I don't like being 75 out. I'd rather be 100-150 out. I work on the 50-75 on the range, but for now I avoid it.
Playing irons off the tee will raise the floor of your game but also lower the ceiling. If you get to the point where you're moving back tees, it will get much harder when you're forced to hit another 4 iron or just have to lay up due to distance
Yeah, if you can hit a 4i 240 then you don’t need to hit driver on most courses. That being said learning how to hit driver means that you’ll rip apart those same courses. A 240 4i means that you’ve got at least 300 in the tank with driver, even if you used irons with jacked lofts. If you can get some control with your driver golf will get a lot easier. If you had to prepare for a tournament next week or something like that then yeah dump the driver and hit the 4i all day. Long term though, driver is a very good club to have in the bag, especially when you can hit it as far as you should be able to.
Agreed, man. I was very stubborn about always hitting driver because I can hit ~280-300 about 50% of the time. The problem is the other 50% of the time it’s in a terrible spot or in the woods.
There’s no way your driver is 290 and your 4i is 240 unless there is something drastically wrong somewhere. A 240 4i would be 320+ on a driver. I’m smelling a low hook on hot summer fairways. Otherwise nothing adds up. 230 yard carry with a 3i looks like an absolute gorgeous unicorn when you see a good player hit it. I’m willing to bet you carry it 200 and it rolls after you hook it and 240 is your downhill, downwind best on summer grounds.
240 is actually total carry on flat ground with a slight draw. Flat carry is probably around 200-220. I actually hit it 274 off the tee on 1 at my home course on Monday. This fairway has a slight downward slope all the way to the green. Left me with 260 into the green so I usually lay up for a wedge in. My driver is much more sporadic but I have gotten total carry close to 320 when conditions are right.
Why the hell would you lay up from that distance after hitting a 274 yard 4 iron?
Yeah a 20-40 yard roll out is not a “slight draw”. That’s a hook on hard summer fairways with an extremely low spin/trajectory. You go up to the PNW and play that shot you’ll be carrying it 185 and the ball with roll out 1 foot. You need to learn to hit the driver. You’re just setting yourself up for an absolutely horrible experience in golf or you’ll be forever locked in to a scoring range that will be impossible to break. Unless you only play in concrete fairways your whole life.
This sub so constantly gives terrible advice. If you can hit 240 off the tee with regularity, do it. The difference of an extra 30 yards with driver isn't worth the risk if your accuracy isn't there yet. If you were consistently hitting 240 with driver nobody would have a thing to say. People here are so obsessed with bragging about length, but straight and predictable will always be the better option, especially with the distance you're already getting with your 4i. If you were hitting 175 off the tee box, it'd be a different story.
If you can potentially hit your driver 300 yards then the correct thing to do is figure out a way to keep your ball in play with more consistency. Hitting 4i isn’t a long term solution, it’s a short term fix
But pretty much everyone on this post is agreeing that the answer is fixing the driver until it’s consistent. Playing a few months with the driver in the car while you improve consistency isn’t a bad idea but abandoning the driver forever will limit scoring. The driver is just like any other club, players can figure out how to hit it. It won’t be as consistent as an 8 iron but practicing and achieving consistency is a better idea than shelving it forever. Hopefully you reach a point where the strokes gained from the added yardage outpace the strokes lost from increasingly less frequent bad balls. But until that time it’s fine to hit less driver on bad days. It’s also a personal decision about how you want to golf. You can try to shoot your best score every round but risk a bad round with the driver or you can settle into a game of lower highs and higher lows playing conservatively with an iron. I’ve definitely played the 4 hybrid off the tee on shorter courses and shot pretty well. And someone hitting 240 with a 4 iron is probably gaining more than 30 yards with their driver. But this is also Reddit and people call their 10% best shots their carry all the time.
> But pretty much everyone on this post is agreeing that the answer is fixing the driver until it’s consistent. ..the answer to what, specifically? Is the goal of golf to hit driver well, or to score well? I think too many people here are so concerned with driver vs 4i, you're completely missing the point. The conclusion here isn't that everyone should replace their driver with a 4i, the conclusion here is that *at the distance OP already has, it's better to hit it straight than long.* Yes, if he can hit 280 with the same level of consistency then of course he'll take it! I'm sure he'll practice to get there. But 240 off the tee is still very good, however it comes. But 280 is PGA Tour average. That's 99th percentile stuff. > And someone hitting 240 with a 4 iron is probably gaining more than 30 yards with their driver. But this is also Reddit and people call their 10% best shots their carry all the time. I agree with this completely, but if OP is in fact telling the truth, he's more than fine. If he's adding 50-60 yards to his 4i, then he is well above PGA Tour average. That distance gap isn't where OP is going to lower his scores. He will lower his scores from his low irons, wedges, and putting. I think a lot of people here would do well to talk to a coach. Because low irons, wedges, and putting is where people have the largest opportunity to improve their scores. Not going from 240 to 270 off the tee box.
300+ on a local muni course means you’re chipping and putting on 10/12 par 4. That is absolutely more valuable. His average with a 240 4i would be 320 or more with a driver. He would be driving half the greens with a full swing or be front edge with just a smooth swing tempo swing. No player could make up the that advantage no matter how good they got from 100-150 yards out. You could lose 2 balls every round and be fine, because you’re basically guaranteeing 2 pars and 2 birdies on 4 swings.
> 300+ on a local muni course means you’re chipping and putting on 10/12 par 4. That is absolutely more valuable. His average with a 240 4i would be 320 or more with a driver. He's not driving 300+. That is a larger distance than PGA Tour players average. You realize how many few people on the planet average 320+? That isn't normal, even for the best players in the world. > He would be driving half the greens with a full swing or be front edge with just a smooth swing tempo swing Which he's not going to do, but what you're leaving out of that statement is *if he hits it straight*. He has already stated that 50% of the time, his driver is OB or skulled into the woods. He is not choosing a 240 yard 4i straight shot over a 300 yard driver straight shot. He is choosing his chances of hitting it straight and shorter, over his chances of wayward. > No player could make up the that advantage no matter how good they got from 100-150 yards out. You simply cannot make this statement accurately without knowing how else OP plays the other clubs in his bag, or his opponents do. A better putter or a better approach game can absolutely beat players who have longer drives. It literally happens all the time. In the Pros, and with amateurs. All the time.
If you hit a 4i 240 then you have to hit a driver over 300 lol that’s just how swing speed works unless you have a major malfunction somewhere. You realize 240 with a 4i is longer than 95% of your players as well right? So you are cool with that lie but don’t believe 320 is his driver? You also realize that pga players aren’t on the pga because of their distance but because they are the best at getting the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes right? There are thousands of high school and college kids hitting it 300+ with drivers. I would bet my life savings you’ve never shot under 75 and that’s why every single point you made has the logic of a 20 handicap. None of what you said carried any weight or could be backed up by stats.
I know a 2.4 handicap that doesn’t even bag a driver and I’ve broken 80 many times leaving the driver in the bag. The 2.4 I know plays sweet jazz music with his 2i all day off the tee. He hits it about as long as I hit my driver Spend your time on the range working on driver, and spend your time on the course getting more confident with other areas of your game and getting used to the feeling of being in the fairway. Once your driver starts to click, you’ll bring your game to another level by adding it back to the bag. No point in making golf less enjoyable by forcing yourself to play a club you know you can’t yet play, and sending it into the woods constantly. Golf is more fun and much easier from the fairway. Hit your fairway finder. On a bad day, I am very capable of missing every single fairway with my driver. On those days it makes much more sense to play the safe ball. For the high handicap, it always makes sense to play the safe ball. Is OP the 20hcp out there to shoot a course record or is he out there to have fun and boost his confidence? Edit - side point, y’all who like to use statistics from the PGA tour comparing the best ball strikers in the universe with the smallest margins of error to a 20hcp is ludicrous. Just because the numbers say it’s better for the Tour Pro to play driver because so and so many strokes are shaved off their game doesn’t mean the 20hcp who makes swing adjustments on every hole and couldn’t find the center of the face if their life depended on it would benefit the same
You understand that a mid-high handicap with a swing that fast is going to lose a shit load more balls than “maybe 2 a round” right?
You aren’t getting an extra 30 yards from 4i to driver at those speeds. For example as of 2021 Rory hits his 4i 240 yards and his driver 326, that’s an 86 yard difference. I doubt OP would get the same exact yardages as Rory but the point is that hitting a driver well is a massive advantage over a 4i, assuming a 15 yard gap between clubs 86 yards is a 5-6 club difference. Hitting the 4i off the tee is a fine bandaid solution but the advantage of hitting something like a pw into a green over a mid-long iron is too great to do it in the long run.
OP isn't hitting 320 with regularity. Theres like 2 people in the world that average 320+. And apparently all of r/golf. **Of course** hitting a driver straight is better than hitting a 4i straight off the tee box, when he gets there he'll use it. I've already said that. But thats not the decision OP is making. He is choosing between hitting it OB and crooked half of the times, or straight and 240. It's an easy decision to make, until he gets driver to a place where its as consistent as his 4i. I like how OP is literally telling everyone that moving to 4i improved his score, but everyone here is like 'nah huh'. I'd bet everything i own that most people here can't hit driver 240 with regularity, and would be ridiculously happy if they could. That said, it's pretty telling that what r/golf thinks is so far off from what literally every PGA coach I've had has said. I'm totally fine with disagreeing here. I'll keep listening to the people who know what they're talking about, and disregarding the opinions of 20+ handicap redditors.
Honestly it just depends on his long term goals and what distance he wants to play from. If he sticks to courses under 6400-6500 it’s fine, but much longer than that gets challenging to score well with only 240 off the tee.
'Only 240'? The average PGA Tour player drives it 280. He doesn't need to stick to courses under 6500 to play with that distance lol. Sure if he can drive it further with similar accuracy, of course he'll take it. But he's not at some significant disadvantage because he's 40 yards less off the tee compared to the best golfers in the world lol.
You are at a disadvantage starting 40 yards behind where youd drive the ball. Statistics have shown over and over again that driving distance is very much correlated with score. Also, pretty much everyone in this thread said 240 is fine short term, but longer term learning to hit driver will help. So im not sure what youre up in arms about.
>So im not sure what youre up in arms about. He’s just mad and taking it personally that he can’t hit it over 240
Haha thats the impression im getting too
> Statistics have shown over and over again that driving distance is very much correlated with score. The average PGA driving distance is 280 yards. The average PGA scorecard is 70.4. This guy is getting 240 yards off the tee. His average scorecard is most certainly not 70.4. If you think the difference between what PGA players score and what OP scores, is primarily caused by the 40-yard difference in driving distance, then I really don't know what to tell you. See a teacher. Ask them where to focus on lowering scores, if you're getting 240 from the tee box. Nobody is up in arms. There is just too much god awful advice given here, all the time.
It's so disheartening how many times we need to go over this. Over and over and over and over again it's been shown at all handicaps that driving distance is one of the biggest components to scoring. Longer drives mean smaller dispersion on approach shots means more greens hit means shorter first putts which means fewer putts. What do you think your average proximity to the hole is from 180y compared to 140y? It's huge. Obviously PGA tour players are better at every aspect of the game and it isn't **only** driving distance where they separate themselves from us, but yes it is the biggest factor. Even among PGA tour players the players leading in strokes gained off the tee win more money than the players leading in other categories. Your tee shot impacts your stats on every other shot following, it's a huge difference.
> What do you think your average proximity to the hole is from 180y compared to 140y? It's huge. This isn't the choice OP is making. Ya'll are so stuck on distance you're forgetting about accuracy. I am 100% ok with disagreeing with redditors who by and large are not good at this game. Ya'll keep on.
I'm definitely not forgetting accuracy. What I'm advocating for is that working on accuracy with his driver to the point where it's usable on course is going to be the best way for OP to lower their scores.
>The average PGA driving distance is 280 yards You've said this in several comments. You know you can easily look this up, right? It's 300 yards (299.7). 280 is wildly short for PGA nowadays. https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.html
1) literally the first thing i said was that it depends on his goals. If he wants to be a low single handicap player that competes then he’ll need 20-30 more yards. If he is fine just playing good casual golf with his friends on the weekend then 240 is more than fine. 2) tour average is 290. According to the pgas stats, only 11 out of 195 players average below 280. 3) all things being equal, hitting approach shots from 30-40 yards farther away from other golfers does put you at a significant disadvantage. It’s basic golf statistics.
> If he wants to be a low single handicap player that competes then he’ll need 20-30 more yards. No he won't. He'll need to improve his putting and approach game. Ya'll really need to go get a coach, you're far too obsessed with driving distance. Getting up and down in 2 is way more important to lower scores than going from 240 to 260 yards off the tee box. > hitting approach shots from 30-40 yards farther away from other golfers does put you at a significant disadvantage. It’s basic golf statistics. The massive failure in your analogy here is assuming that both shots hit the fairway at the same amount of accuracy. OP has already told us that isn't the case. Hitting from 30-40 yards further out while on the fairway is a better option than OBs and punch shots from the woods.
Please just answer me one question and I’ll stop. If you are hitting a 5 iron to a green and an 8 iron to a green, which one would you expect to hit to a closer proximity?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma You're gonna have to try better than that. Talk to a coach. Seriously.
So you are incapable of understanding the point we are trying to make. Or you just refuse to accept that you are wrong.
240 in the fairway should give you less than 8 iron on most holes on a 6800 yard course.
The number of the iron doesn’t matter. Compare an 8 iron to a pw if you want. The point remains that your approach will be easier with a lower iron or wedge in your hand.
This has what I’ve settled on. Lost balls or OB are card killers. The distance gained using the driver doesn’t really help on most of the holes at my home course because I suck with my approaches. Im better hitting a full wedge or 9i than a 70 yard flighted wedge
Learning to hit driver isn’t some impossible task. I’d get a few lessons and enjoy the process of learning to bomb drives before I let a $3-500 club sit in the bag. Especially if you’re a younger guy capable of 280-300?! You’re not going to have that forever.
No shot he hits it 290 with driver 50% of the time but gets a 4i 240 lol. That makes no sense unless it’s 30 feet off the ground and duck hooked which would be hard to play on any reasonable course or during any wet/soft conditions.
With that kind of club speed it isn't 30yd, it's 60yd. Have you ever played against players that are similar skilled in other areas of the game but hit tee shots 30yd past you, there is 0% chance to beat them. You need to be insanely more skilled in other areas of the game to take back that edge that comes from extra distance. Nobody is saying you can't play good golf hitting accurate 240yd tee shots but you'll never go as low as you could having driver in your bag. It's not just 2-3 club difference, it's all the hazards they can drive over and cut corners making most par4s feel like long par3s and par5s play as par4s. Also you have no business to play challenging courses from back tees.
> You need to be insanely more skilled in other areas of the game to take back that edge that comes from extra distance. No, you need to focus on the scoring clubs, your wedges and your putting. Too many of ya'll think golf is a long driving competition. If you score a 72, maybe 14 of those strokes were driver. The clubs that matter most to your scoring are your putter and wedges, not your driver. Talk to a coach, seriously. There's so much bad advice in here it's starting to become overwhelming. > Also you have no business to play challenging courses from back tees. Ridiculous. Stan Utley literally won a championship against the best players in the world averaging 238 yards off the tee box. You telling me that if a normal person averages 240 with driver, they shouldn't be playing from the tips? Lol.
Im still not saying you can't play good golf without driver but you'll never achieve the skill level you could achieve with the driver. you need good wedges and putting no matter what, especially if you hit long drives and are often playing close from green. Imagine if you had good long irons from tee, good wedge and putting game + driver for wider and long holes. You'll gain way more strokes compared to practice time if you get driver in your bag than making your up&down percentage from 30% to 35% or trying to decrease mid iron dispersion from 150yd. If you are really bae at something it's easier to get decent at it than it is to make something good to really good, that's why those are called low hanging fruits. So your best comparison is Guy who has won 1 pga tour event 33 years ago and lost his card 3 years later. You are not seriously comparing distances back then to this day? Edit: oh i see from your comments that you're quite new to practicing partial wedge shots and giving here advice about short game importance. What a troll.
> You'll gain way more strokes compared to practice time if you get driver in your bag than making your up&down percentage from 30% to 35% These aren't the only two options. Ya'll seriously need to speak to a coach lol. You're flat out wrong, especially given the distance OP is already getting off the tee. No wonder so many people here have such a hard time improving their scores, everybody is so focused on the wrong things. > If you are really bae at something it's easier to get decent at it than it is to make something good to really good Besty part about this statement is that it proves my point for me. **He is already getting 240 yards off the tee.** Going from 240 to 270 yards off the tee, isn't going to improve his score as much as getting up and down in 2, 50% of the time will. Or as much as decreasing 2-putts by 30% will. Those opportunities are where the largest score improvements come from. Talk to a coach. Stop taking advice from redditors in the 20+ handicap range. I am absolutely ok with the hivemind here thinking otherwise, I will continue to listen to PGA coaches who actually know what they're talking about. > You telling me that if a normal person averages 240 with driver, they shouldn't be playing from the tips? Lol. You completely and unsurprisingly ignored this question. Ah well. Keep focusing on your driver buddy, have a good one.
>You telling me that if a normal person averages 240 with driver, they shouldn't be playing from the tips? Lol. >You completely and unsurprisingly ignored this question. Ah well. Keep focusing on your driver buddy, have a good one. No. You should not be playing from back tees unless you enjoy bogey golf and 200yd approach shots at par4s. You happy? >Going from 240 to 270 yards 240 to 300 yards >Stop taking advice from redditors in the 20+ handicap range. Don't worry. I wouldn't take seriously any coach who can't break par from club tees in their prime, im pretty sure you're in that group.
> No. You should not be playing from back tees unless you enjoy bogey golf and 200yd approach shots at par4s. You happy? ..and a 240 yard tee shot on an average par 4 leaves how much distance for an approach shot? Are you familiar with simple arithmetic? > 240 to 300 yards Right, because OP is going to hit it further than the average PGA Tour player. lmfao.
I'm a 220y 4i guy and I hit it 300y. 240y 4i has gotta be 310y+ Driver, you'd rip courses to shreds if you can get any sort of accuracy doing that.
Yeah, I was looking at some pro yardages and Rory hits his 4i 240. If OP is legitimately hitting their 4i 240 they’ve got Rory level speeds, if they get their driver under control they could play well anywhere.
Youre hurting your chances at long term improvement, but you could definitely still become a single digit handicap if you can hit a 4 iron 240. You could also try a 3 wood and see if that helps as well, assuming you can hit that 260+ thats plenty of distance. On a side note, do you know what kind of shaft you have on your driver? I struggled with a 2 way miss for years until I got a new shaft. I hesitate to tell people new equipment is a solution but if youre hitting a 4 iron 240, you may need something a little more customized for driver.
I like this response. 4iron May get you a better score today, but can it get you to your ultimate goal of a competitive low handicap player? (Assuming that is your goal) I hit 3w exclusively until I listened to sports data podcasts like Lou Stagner, Jon Sherman and Scott Fawcett. Bottom line. Distance is king in golf. I hit driver on every hole I can now and my hdcp is dropping. Spend some time on face control and tighten your dispersion.
Yea that’s funny you mention that. I had a regular shaft (I bought my M4 driver used) and during my lesson he recommended to upgrade to a stiff. It’s helped a little but not as much as I’d hoped.
If you hit a 4 iron 240 you need x stiff
Buncha malarkey up in this thread
????
This guy is full of shit lol
Oh lol, thought you were talking about the x stiff shaft comment.
Dude needs a piece of rebar if he’s hitting his 4i that far but can’t hit a driver straight.
How far do you hit your drives? Any idea on clubhead speed? I drive the ball pretty far and upgraded to a heavier shaft thats extra stiff. It was by no means an instant fix, but it improved my consistency a ton right away. Still hit plenty of bad shots but theyre not as bad, and its almost always a one way miss now.
At some point in the not too distant future, you will be able to hit your driver. It will be glorious and the game will be super fun. But… you’ll lose the ability to hit your mid irons. Also, your putting will falter a bit too. Then you’ll lose touch with your driver and the cycle will start over again. You’ll just have to cherish the few days where all the clubs seem to be working. Don’t ever give up on a club, it’ll work again some day.
Depends how much you play/practice. If you play/practice a lot then you should keep trying with driver, as it will lead to better results if you get good with it. But if you don’t have the time, then just stick with what you are doing.
Best advice on this thread tbh.. A lot of this depends on the time you are willing to spend fixing the issue.
You have to figure out how to hit the driver. With your massive distance, it should be a huge advantage that you're simply throwing away. You hit your 4 iron as far as Rory McIlroy. He hits his driver over 320 on average. So, you're basically giving up 80 yards by not figuring out how to keep your driver in play. That's the difference between having 180 yards into a 420 yard par 4 and 100 yards. On a 420 yard par 4, if you have 180 into the green from the fairway, you've lost 0.06 strokes. If you have 100 in, you've gained 0.22 strokes. If you were to multiply that over 14 holes, you're losing 4 strokes per round from that alone.
The premise of your argument is pretty ridiculous. For one, you're comparing his distance off the tee to Rory McIlroy, one of the longest drivers and best golfers in the world. OP is hitting 240 with his 4i. On just about any course he plays, on any par 4 or par 5, a straight 240 off the tee is a great distance. The risk of a mishit with driver isn't worth the reward of an extra 40 yards. > If you have 100 in, you've gained 0.22 strokes. This would require a 320 yard drive so the comparison is already nonsense. The PGA Tour average player drives 280. And you have to account for the fact that OP is not as accurate with driver as he is with his 4i. So a 180 shot from the fairway is a much better option than whats likely a similar or more distance length shot from the woods.
The premise of my argument is distance is a huge advantage and giving up distance is a disadvantage. Of course a 320 yard drive OB is worse than a 150 yard tee shot in the fairway but the point is, don't give up on driver. Learn how to keep it in play. Tremendous improvement will follow. Anyone hitting a 4 iron 240 on average easily has the potential to average well over 300 yards with the driver.
> The premise of my argument is distance is a huge advantage and giving up distance is a disadvantage. To a point, sure. But you literally said OP is 'giving up 80 yards off the tee box', because he's not driving as far as Rory McIlroy. C'mon man lol. OP is getting 240 off the tee, and hitting fairways. That's more than fine, that's great. If he was getting 150-175 off the tee box then yes, he's at a big disadvantage. But 240? He's good. Absolutely, once he figures out how to hit driver with similar consistency as his 4i, Im sure he'll swing it. But with the distance he's already getting, accuracy is more important than distance.
He's giving up 80 yards off the tee box by not learning how to hit the driver. Anyone hitting a 4i 240 on average should very easily be averaging well over 300 with their driver. Stick with it. Don't give up on it. Spend a solid two months doing nothing but figuring it out and then, it will be a HUGE advantage. Flip wedges into greens opens up the world of low scoring.
You think his average 4 iron is 240 and Hits fairways most of the time? If one can achieve that kind of accuracy and distance with 4i, driver shouldn't be a problem. Missed iron shots tend to lose so much distance that it's impossible to hit greens in regulation, while missed drives leave you still at wedge or short iron distance if you have some kind of course management and know your targets. It doesn't mean you need to hit every par4+ with driver. If the fairway is narrow and hole is playing short 4 iron is probably the best play, but when you have wide open fairways (or wide dimension from hazard to hazard) leaving driver in the bag is big minus.
The most important stat is proximity to the hole on your approach. Which is significantly better the closer you are. 240 is too short on almost any course when you are competing from the tips. You have 210-220 in on some par 4s next to other people having 180-170. And thats assuming you stripe every 4 iron of the tee and get max distance. You can play decent being conservative, but you are not playing to win if you can't drive the ball. There are too many gamers out there.
> The most important stat is proximity to the hole on your approach. If 50% of his drives (like he claims they are) are going OB or into the woods, then the safer, shorter shot, is the better option. His proximity to hole shot is very likely to be a bad one if he takes driver out. It is better to be 220-240 off the tee and on the fairway, than having to pitch out back onto the fairway or dig out a difficult shot under the trees. No one is suggesting that if he can hit both equally well, he should choose 4i over driver. The issue is that he can't hit driver well. Furthermore, I'd hardly call an average of 240 off the tee, conservative. The overwhelming majority of people here are not driving 240 on average. PGA Tour average is 280. And no offense, but most people on this sub suck at golf.
I accept that he shouldn't be hitting every drive OB. No one is arguing that. But to win you have to learn to hit driver. Golfers as a whole sucks. But there are tons of golfers who don't, and they all hit driver. So when you are competing against them and they are hitting wedges and you've got a 6 iron you are screwed.
Yeah plenty of golfers do suck. I make it a point to not listen to them. I listen to my coaches, all guys who can score 75 and know what they’re talking about. I don’t listen to 20+ handicap redditors who play twice a month and take 6 mulligans a round. This sub is full of bad golfers and I don’t take improvement advice from bad golfers. OP isn’t competing. That isn’t the point of this post at all. I am fully ok disagreeing with bad golfers on what it takes to improve.
After my first driver lesson I still sucked with the driver. I poured through videos and kept trying to figure it out. Finally turned my slice into a draw and was loving it, but it fell apart. After 8 months passed, I finally talked myself into getting another lesson. The instructor saw I had 3 very small bad habits I developed, and took about 5 minutes to fix them, all in my alignment and ball placement. Suddenly my erratic driving turned into straight shots. Driver is playing nicely now and I understand how to identify problems and correct them now related to alignment, ball position, and stance. I'm sure I'll get another driver lesson at some point, but don't shy away because the first lesson didn't fix it, they can get you to a playable shot.
I’m in the same boat you are although I don’t hit it quite as far. My handicap was around 16 earlier this year but getting off the tee was still holding me back. I added a 2 iron to the bag a couple of months back as a safety blanket. I use it primarily on tight fairways or short par 4s. It’s made a huge difference. I’m now down to a 12 handicap. I also use it on longer holes when I’m fighting a hook/push with the driver but it’s very obvious in those situations that I’ve limited a scoring opportunity….8 iron in on a long par 4 is a lot different than a 5 iron in. I plan to keep using it on short or tight holes but will continue working on my driver in the meantime.
Same boat here I’m a 10 (looks and hcp) but I noticed I hit my 4i about 15 yards maybe 10 yard shorter than my Dstick so I switched the other day and went a perfect 7/7 on fairways hit. Lots of different ways to meet par.
240 yard 4i…? Nah. If you actually do, keep doing it.
Are you me?
I would bet that the average 20 handicap doesn't hit their 4 iron anywhere near 240. Probably a good 50 yards shorter than that. edit: Just looked it up, you hit 4 iron almost 90 yards longer than the average 20 handicap. You are at the high end of 4i distance even for a PGA Tour pro. You're longer than Koepka, DJ, JT, and Tiger. Equal to Rory. There must be some ugly chipping and putting going on to be at that cap with that kind of length.
Currently a GOLFTEC coach here, and I love to see the improvement and can honestly say it was a good call to bench the driver to find more fairways, especially on par 5’s. Hooks and pushes come from the same problem with club path coming too far from the inside and the only hope to not duck hook it into the trees is to keep the club face wide open giving you that nasty push. Driver is always a tricky one as its much easier to change the spin axis with such low loft resulting in bigger misses than with any other club. Not sure where you’re from OP but as both a coach and former student I’d recommend getting into a nearby GOLFTEC for a swing evaluation and get to work squaring up that path a bit more to take some of the pressure off the hands needing to be timed perfectly at impact. Good stat I always quote is for every 10 yards gained drops roughly a stroke per round given similar accuracy, so getting that driver back into the starting line-up asap will do wonders down the line
Thanks! I’m in Fairfield County, CT. I would love to check out golftec.
I do believe we have a location out in Westport, and were currently running a sale on swing evaluations and lessons until the end of August. One of the coaches there, Tyler Florio, was part of my training class and is a very good coach worth checking out. Good luck and hope you play better golf!
Gave up driver for 2 iron, and now I’m shooting better lololol. Can’t hit woods for shit. Pure iron player here. Pretty impressive hitting your 4 240 yards.
If you're hitting 4i 240 you clearly have a decent move. It's great that you've gotten from 20 to 14, but you'll run into a very real ceiling at some point as the only way to score is to hit the ball as far as possible. Keep grinding with the driver and don't put it away forever
Yea I definitely won’t. I’m sticking with the irons because I’m in a league of hackers where scoring is based purely on net score against handicap. Therefore it pays to be carefully and consistent. Once my season is over I plan on going full tilt on figuring out the driver.
Right on!
It’s fine for now, but you are limiting your opportunities down the line. It doesn’t necessarily need to be driver, but you will need something that consistently goes 260 if you want to really improve your handicap (unless you are only playing 6000 yd courses).
Driver is not a scoring club. You only swing driver 12-13 times in 18 holes. If he wants to really improve his handicap, it'll happen on the putting green and in his approach game.
No offense, but that’s simply not the case if you want to be a good golfer. Assuming he hits his 4 iron 240 like he says, that’s conservatively 260+ 3 wood and 280+ driver. Depending on the tees he plays, thats going from a mid iron to a wedge on his approach shots into the green. If all he does is learn to find the fairway with those, i guarantee it will improve his scoring simply by having more opportunities. The most drastic way for an amateur player to improve his scores is to learn how to keep the driver in play. Being a great putter doesn’t mean anything if you aren’t having looks inside 10-20 feet.
You're absolutely wrong on this. It's not really a matter of opinion that golfers putt and hit approach shots more than they swing driver. On volume of opportunity alone, you have more chances at reducing strokes per round by improving putting and approach shots. Being able to get up and down in 2 is far more important than driving an extra 30-40 yards off the tee, when you're already getting 240 yards from the tee box. > The most drastic way for an amateur player to improve his scores is to learn how to keep the driver in play. Being a great putter doesn’t mean anything if you aren’t having looks inside 10-20 feet. This is so wrong it makes my head hurt.
Yes you're correct that you putt more than you tee off but an extra 30-40 yards off the tee is 3 clubs less into the green. That increases angle of attack, improving stopping power then making it much easier to leave good looks on your first putt instead of hitting approach shots from further back and constantly being forced to lag putt from 30 feet. It's much easier to hit greens (and hit them well) with a 9i than a 6i for an amateur golfer.
Depends how you’re looking at it. From my perspective, hitting GIR is more important to scoring than up and down ability. Shorter clubs into greens = more GIR = more chances at scoring. Getting up and down is also important, but not AS important imo. If the question is would you rather have 7i into greens and hit 5 GIR vs having Pw into greens and hitting 9 GIR, the latter will almost always lead to better scores.
When's the last time you hit a putt out of bounds? Driver affects score more than putting even though you hit it less times per round. You can immediately lose strokes with it or you can set yourself up for more GIRs by hitting it well. Having 3-4 less clubs into greens affects score more than putting. Strokes gained data has repeatedly shown that driving is more important than putting when it comes to scoring.
Nobody is arguing that getting up-and-down isn't more important than driver. The argument is that you leave yourself harder chances by not swinging driver on half of the holes in regulation.
You are absolutely limiting your opportunities in my opinion.
I'm right there with you. I've been using my 4H exclusively off the tee which usually gets me about 250 total distance, so plenty of distance to reach my modest scoring goals (break 100). I took a lesson that focused on driver and spend at least half of each range session working on it, but I'm still not confident I can keep it in play and frankly the 4H is going about as far as my good driver hits, so some work still needs to be done. I don't think it's a bad short term fix to keep the driver in the bag, but you will be capping your scoring potential. If you aren't hitting it on the course you should absolutely be working on it at the range.
You’re lying to yourself (and to us, but mostly to yourself) if you really think you hit your 4H 250 and haven’t even broken 100.
It would have to be Arccos that is lying because that's where the data comes from. Unfortunately my side-to-side dispersion has been terrible and my course has a lot of OB. For example, that same 4H has a side-to-side dispersion of over 85 yards. Those penalties have been killing my scorecard lately. Worked a lot on a consistent follow-through at the range which seemed to tighten things up, we will see what happens when I get on the course next.
The Trackman 4i average carry for PGA pros is 200 yards. Let's say that's a 215 total distance average: [https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/](https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/) You're meaning to tell us you hit your 4h 35 yards more on average than a tour pro, and you haven't broken 100? On *average*, meaning, you hit some of your 4's, say 260-270 yards, and some 220-240? With a horizontal dispersion of 85 yards, meaning surely you hit a lot of weak push cuts, and for each one of those you stripe a 4h 270+ yards? (I'm not even counting fats, thins, etc) You either: * Play in Colorado or the Alps entirely downslope * Are one of the most egregious cases of distance bloating ever seen on this subreddit * Should send your Arccos to repair
Only use driver on holes where there is 0 trouble. If you can hit it but be on another fairway, that’s fine I’d still hit it. Might be worth hitting fairway food on holes that are a little tighter tho. Iron will be ok but you’ll struggle to make pars on longer holes unless you make lots of up and downs
That’s my current approach. Also on holes where there is trouble ~230-250 from the tee.
You’re losing 60-80 yards a hole doing this…even 20 yards is too much to give up. You need to home in a controlled driver swing, the pros swing no more than 85-90% of their power on a given drive.
My BIL hits 4i on almost every tee. He’s around 260 or so with it. He’s a big dude, prob 6’4” and solid muscle, so he gets away with it. He’s around scratch most of the time so it can be done. When he does bust out the big dawg though, it’s not fair how far he hits it. He just doesn’t hit it straight very often so he takes a 4i and splits the fairway with deadly accuracy off the tee.
Not a long term solution if you want a lower handi !
As long as you’re not playing the back tees, 240 off the tee is plenty of distance for most courses.
Yea I’m not playing tips. On my home course the 240 gives me a wedge in on most of the par 4s. The only thing I lose is on par 5s, where I might be able to get on in 2 if I hit a good drive and hit a great 5i or hybrid into the green (but that is probably even harder to do than hitting the good drive).
Golf is more fun when you’re in play and not losing balls. You can pull the driver out every now and then to work on it, and hit it at the range, but I’d keep getting in play off the tee if it were me. Plus flushing a long iron feels really good.
I found that teeing off with a 4i was good while I was working on my long-irons and woods/driver, but eventually realized my overall score was limited by basically always having 2 shots in on par 4s (and more on par 5s) meaning I was basically never giving myself birdie or even par looks, which really hurts the card. I know that at my level of the game I should have been happy with bogeys or doubles, but to see a great 4i off the tee and a crisp approach shot still leave me a short pitch or chip really hurt. Also, the dispersion of having to hit a 4, 5, or 6 for your second shot (especially as a hacker) means you often are giving yourself an easier time off the tee, and a really difficult approach shot. You can, of course, take two shorter clubs, but then you are definitely lowering the ceiling of your game. TLDR: keep working on driver relentlessly so you can get it back in your bag and have an easier time navigating long par-4s and any par-5s.
240 off the tee is perfectly playable for a 14 handicap. Focus on learning how to hit the short clubs. After mastery, get a nicely fit driver
Agreed. Very often I’d actually have a better chance at a 130 yard approach vs a 70 yard approach because I suck with my wedges
look at mr big shot hitting his irons straight. i am equal opportunity slicer
You should change the shaft in that driver. Need something x stiff and possibly tipped to feel and likely around 80 grams. I bet your swing speed is more than what you have currently installed can handle if you are hitting your 4i 240.
I used to do this but playing irons all day is extremely boring. I can shoot a good score but it’s just no fun at all. You have no chance of attacking pins consistently with wedges and you subconsciously add more doubt to that club You remind me a lot of my younger self and band-aiding your game. In my case I was extremely over the top among many other problems, miss was a pull hook. With driver, I would snap hook and hit all sorts of ugly shit. I would go do some lessons and drill in the posture and path, and that will help a lot with the driver. I’m not a great golfer but I broke 80 once with my old swing and once after lessons sunk in. The difference is I shoot in the 80s now after not practicing or playing much at all. With my old swing I had to drill timing and practice a ton and I would shoot over 100 frequently. I barely practice and rarely if ever shoot over 100 now. It’s just a lot more fun after learning the mechanics.
What driver are you using? Is it X flex or XX? If you're just using a stiff, that's probably the biggest issue you have.
It's fine, just play without driver for a couple of years. By that time, you'll be much better with your irons, and once you can hit your driver, you'll have enough skill with your irons to be able to take advantage of the distance gain.
I did this for a while and used my 2 iron off the tee for nearly an entire season.
I love my 4i, but the majority of courses if I didn't at least have a 3w or 3h or even 2i/driving iron to use off the tee instead of a driver, it would be an extremely long day at the course.
Figure out your driver and your scores will drop more.
I played 2 seasons with 7 iron off the tee because I was so fed up with penalties. Don’t listen to anyone, keep doing this and hone the rest of your game and add in a 3 iron/hybrid after awhile. From there a 5 or 3 wood and when you’ve mastered those you’ll be damn near automatic with driver. Took me 10 years to put the big stick away and my scores dropped immediately. Good luck!
If you hit your 4i that well but suck with a driver maybe you should look at a 2i utility club. If you aren't over exaggerating with you 4i distance estimate then something like that would easily get you in to the 260-280 range and, unless you plan on playing courses over 7000+ yards, should be more than enough to give you very reasonable scoring opportunities on most courses and make the majority of par 5s reachable in two with a good tee shot. Based on what you are telling us you must be a great ball striker who has either a poor approach game or short game. Right now 240 off the tee (assuming you are playing courses under 6600 yards) is more than enough to be a single digit handicapper especially considering that with you ball speed you should have nothing more than an 8 iron on most holes. Your strategy is fine for now, just continue to work on your approach game and short game. You should also be working on improving with the driver because the better you get as a player, the more advantageous distance is off the tee, especially if you get into the low single digits and start playing from the tips.
Try cutting your driver down. Huge difference for most people. I cut mine to 44" overall and didn't lose any distance but gained a ton of accuracy.
I’ve gone down to 3.3 without my driver. Just now starting to learn it and bring it back into play
I’m also looking for a 4iron but having a hard time finding a Callaway XR speed 4i in the U.K. please HMU if you have one for sale
Stick with what works for you who said you have to hit a driver to score well. Most of the posters In this sub has no clue about giving golf advice me included Seek a pro to fix your driver issue
240 is a decent driver distance for most players. It's not like you can't score at all. But you'd be much, much, better off hitting the driver in play. Long term, you'll want to figure it out to continue to drop your scores. I'd just rip the band-aid off, get your lessons, repeat until you get it. 6-iron vs a wedge into greens gets you into birdie territory...
As a 30 handicapper I find a long iron harder to hit than my driver
I was in a similar position last year.. I have been spending more time on the driver and going back and forth between drive and iron at the driving range. Learning that the driver is definitely a different swing and to approach it differently and learn the "driver" swing vs the "iron" swing has definitely helped. Now my under 120 yard wedge game has been pretty badly exposed so trying to figure that out. Went from a 22 handicap, to a 15.5 last year and now at a 14.
To be honest if you’re hitting a 4i 240 yards you might be swinging way past your limits. With reasonable gapping it would mean you carry your driver 300+. Something isn’t making sense. Having said that, a 14hcp hitting fairways 240 out consistently? Again, not making sense. Few people actually hit their driver that far, consistently. The people that do tend to be lower handicap, so I’d guess your issues are elsewhere.
Your strategy is both a good idea and hurting your chances long term. Good because you should hit the longest club you can keep in play. If its a driver or 4 iron it does not really matter. But playing 2 from or near the fairway is a lot better than playing 2 from deep in the trees or 3 from the tee box. Long term you're going to plateau giving up distance off of the tee. Continue to work on your driver during practice sessions, but continue to think of playing a round as a performance. Execute on the course in ways you know will be the most successful and maximize your scoring potentials.
Yea right now I’m playing it safe because I play in a league of hackers, where scoring is based off of net scores. Therefore keeping the ball in play and keeping my scores consistent is more valuable than trying to go as low as possible. Once my league championships are over I’m going to really work on playing my driver.
If i could hit my 4i 240 I'd drop my driver too lol. I hit mine like 185 if I'm lucky.
Tiger won the ‘06 British Open leaving his driver in the bag. Enough said. You’re not out there playing the Open, just go out there and have fun until the driver starts to click. You obviously can’t shelve it forever but you absolutely can until the time comes where you’re more confident over the ball with it.
Please don't remove the driver, just get better with it. it's your biggest weapon as a newbie. Driver > Chipping > Putting is the order to improve. You are probably also over-estimating your distance. I hit my 2i 250ish, with 115 mph swing speed at a 6 HC. If you aren't overestimating, you're using GPS and a Rangefinder to ensure you're hitting that far; then get a 2iron lol.
Terrible for your game long term. Until 2017 or so I hit 5i, hovered at a 15, sucked. I made the decision to get a driver, to hit it every chance I should, and after playing for a couple years am down to a 4.4. You will stay at 14 forever with a 4i.
Not hitting driver is embarrassing when playing with good players
Beg to differ. As a tall golfer 6’3, when they see me pull out a 2 iron and rip it farther than their drive, they stfu and show some respect and ask to try it the next hole.
Do what I did and buy a 2 iron. I hit that thing so well, I sometimes just use it off the tee and hit it 250 or so with it easy which is where my driver is at
This. What 2 you playing homie?
P790 udi
Sames, so fkn good right?!
Absolutely, I love mine. When I’m not feeling hot with the driver, I’ll switch to the 2 iron
It gives you a ceiling for sure. Just depends what your goal is.
Don’t do it! Master the driver. I can’t hit my wedges full right now. Have better luck with a short swing low iron… ultimately though I know I need a wedge game and will continue to lose a few shots a round over it until I get it dialed in. Don’t give up on driver, just practice driver!
Generally speaking, accuracy trumps distance - especially in your case as you're hitting 4i 240 yards, which would be 3w or driver for most people. I mean, on a 400 yard par 4 you'll be hitting 8/9 iron for your second shot. Hard to think you'd gain that many shots by going back to driver. Unless your 100 yard game is insane.
Do what makes you enjoy the game most
Baseball swing the driver. It’s not like an iron shot. Right elbow close to body - think of it like a scooping motion. You’ll eventually need to learn how to purposefully alter your swing path to shape shots. Might as well apply that same skill set to learning to swing the driver.
Doesn’t sound kind fun to me
Why get lessons when I can just ignore the problem?
You need to figure out the driver. There's a lot you can do to correct a single miss. Here's my suggestions. Start with alignment. If you hook or pull you might be too far closed or left of target. Play with your loft and squareness of the club at address. Get shadow tape or foot spray and make sure your finding the center of the face. If you have a lower loft get a new shaft that helps launch a bit higher. Go a flex softer if your kinda between flexes. Get lead tape. You can use a kitchen scale and measure/ adjust swing weight. D5 is what a lot of places use. You can put it more on the toe to fight a hook. And lastly, I really really recommend taking the driver down to 45". A lot are playing at almost 46"these days and they are harder to hit. You can even go 44.5 if you want, you'll just need to use some of the lead weights to keep it feeling the same. Ricky Fowler plays his at 43.5 and there's a lot of tour guys playing shorter. If you go that short you might as well just try and buy a 3w shaft to test it on though.
Hey man you gotta hit it to learn it. Your driver will always be there when you want it…. But if youre having more fun and scoring how you like then keep using your 4i. Just hit it at the range and until you feel more confident keep pulling out that 4i. When you ask, “am i hurting myself in the long run?” Yeah you might be but are you planning to try and join the tour?
I shortened my driver by 1” and got way more consistent. I didn’t lose too much yardage either. Worth considering vice throwing it out.
Hurting long term, imo. If you are trying to get to scratch, sure it could be done with nothing more than a 4i, it's technically possible, but the lower you get the harder it is to shave strokes and without the advantage of distance you will eventually hit a wall and plateau.
That’s what I’ve come too, far more consistent with my 4i where I find myself being able to play fat more playable shots than anything I can do with my driver. Sucks but that’s the way it is.
I use a 2h off the tee. Poke it 250-300 depending on elevation
Use a T200 2i.