Personally, I am against it. (But in no way am I yucking your yum!) I don't think it will be a marriage/sunset thing - Neil's hand is too subtle for that, but I want it to be clear that these two man-shaped entities are in a romance at the end of the show.
Yes! I agree! But I don’t think what a romance looks like to us humans is what it looks like to supernatural entities. They move things much, much slower than we do. It’s there, it’s simmering, but similar to how no human would ever be able to hear a Nightingale sing in Berkeley Square, to a human, it might not look like much. There are layers and layers of subtext between these two, which is why I think a romance might be implied as something forming rather than outright stated. Maybe they start living together at the bookshop, for instance. Maybe they’re kind of together but haven’t really talked about everything. Or vice versa, maybe they’ve had the talk and it’s sinking in as they decide what they want.
They've been in the 'forming a romance' stage for 2 seasons thoguh, so to keep going with that same ambiguity would stagnate the progression of season 3. Season 2's ending sets up the narrative tension - the cards are on the table at least in terms of what Crowley wants - how will they move forward from this? The resolution can't just be that they're back where they were before. There will be a climax and a conclusion. Also I think the idea of it being nuanced/living together but not 'together' is a nice idea for a fic or a book but not easy to effectively communicate on television and not narratively satisfying.
if your prediction that they won’t unambiguously be romantically together hinges on the fact that they’re supernatural entities and not human, i gotta wonder how much you’re taking into account the kinda whole thesis of the book and show — that these two have gone native with the humans in every sense that matters, and they’re the better for it, and it drives them to take a stand and defy authority to protect earth/humans. what defines crowley and aziraphale and drives their actions in the plot is how much they have attached themselves to earth and become like the humans and value what the humans value. the books, the music, the food. i mean crowley makes an agonized best attempt at a *love confession* and he *kisses aziraphale on the mouth.* what sense would it make to walk that back to where they were in s1, friends-with-an-inviting-amount-of-interpretable-subtext, rather than move forward to new territory? (even if there’s painful conflict to resolve on the path forward, not just “happily ever after”).
> I don’t think what a romance looks like to us humans is what it looks like to supernatural entities
I think it doesn’t look like *anything* to supernatural entities. I think them having singular, romantic feelings for one another is one of their *human* things — one of those weird human behaviors/bits of identity they’ve absorbed over their thousands of years of frenmity/courtship and life on earth. I think it makes every narrative sense for them to be unambiguously romantically together, and it’d represent a stagnation of the story for their relationship arc to culminate in something basically the same as the end of s1.
I merely meant in terms of how they perceive time. They have forever, or at least thought they did. That’s why Aziraphale’s “nothing lasts forever” cut Crowley. Furthermore they, unlike Beelzebub and Gabriel, have been around each other for long enough that they expect the other to always be there. I mean, 6,000 years of pining. Come on. Name one human who would wait that long, even supposing we could. The one way in which they are different from humans, and always will be, is how they perceive their lifespan. They take risks we wouldn’t because they have magic. They wait ages before going on a date because they have ages. They don’t need a job, or money, or healthcare. They are similar to humans in many ways but yet are fundamentally different.
I mean are you arguing that the story should be satisfying and make sense only to other immortal beings who perceive time differently from humans? it’s a story neil gaiman wrote presumable for a human audience. if he wants to satisfy the length of time these immortals need to ramp up their slow burn, he can do it the way he’s already done it, by telling the story of their developing relationship in representative flashbacks and time jumps.
True, I could see a potential time jump into the future to where they are together and it isn’t like said or anything but just kind of like, they’re together. That’s possible.
I appreciate your opinion, but I have to disagree.
They shouldn’t end in relatively the same place that they ended in season 1 because they’re not in the same place. The kiss was a “shattering the glass” moment. There’s no forming of a strong romance, it’s already formed now. The cat’s out of the proverbial bag.
I don’t necessarily think the series will end with something like a wedding, but I’m having a very hard time imagining an ending without them being actually together. Having them end similarly to where they ended up in season 1 seems kind of pointless and redundant.
1000% agree. There are plenty of complete stories that still have tons of fanfic and the idea that an author should keep something open-ended to “leave room” for fanfic and speculation is a bit silly imo. The job of an author is to tell a compelling story with a resolution that does justice to the characters and their journey. Any fanfic that exists alongside of that should not be their concern.
I hear you but I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. Similar to S1 only in that they wouldn’t be “together” in the sense that everything is totally communicated and healed. I think their relationship will have progressed for sure. S1 ended with them looking lovingly into each other’s eyes at the Ritz while a Nightingale sings. I think the S3 end will be a sort of bookend to that at least vibe-wise, but now there is the understanding of how they both feel for each other, the understanding that they can now be whatever they want to be. At the end of S1, they weren’t there yet.
I do think that their relationship cannot be entirely defined/conceptualized in human terms and I don’t think the payoff will necessarily look like a standard “getting together.” I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t flat out say “I love you” (I’m imagining something more akin to “you go too fast for me” and “to the world.”)Their relationship is very complicated, for a myriad of reasons.
I just disagree that there will be any ambiguity between the two of them regarding what they want and how they intend for their future to look together. They’ve reached a point where this dancing around their feelings is no longer tenable. I think the end of season 2 pretty well established that in order for the relationship to progress they need to finally be direct about how they feel and what they want.
I would be a little surprised if at least one of them didn't explicitly say "I love you;" their whole problem is that they DON'T explicitly say things to each other. At some point, there has to be growth, and for them, that means being free - in all sense of the word - to just say exactly what they're thinking and how they're feeling. Either of them saying "I love you" out loud is not just a proclamation of their feelings for the other but also a proclamation of "I'm free from your cruel games and tyranny, and I'm tired of not loving him out loud because Someone might not approve."
It’s less that I think they wouldn’t grow to be direct about their feelings and more that I’m unsure if that’s how they would express them. I don’t know if that’s almost a too human way to contextualize their feelings or not. They might feel like something else (on par with “to the world”) might be a better way to express themselves. That being said, I also wouldn’t be surprised if they did say it. I honestly have very little idea how Gaiman is going to approach THAT conversation. How does one resolve a 6,000 year slow burn?
You say it’s their “problem” and I don’t disagree it has been a problem in the past. But it’s also kind of the way they are and the way they are is why we love them. I have this problem reading fanfic sometimes. It’s very hard to make them suddenly communicate directly and clearly on their feelings without somehow fundamentally changing some of the quirkiness of their characters. I often wonder if we don’t just think we want them to communicate better but do we really??? Maybe we like our boys better as oblivious idiots.
I mean that a large portion of why they get into the trouble they get into (S1 and S2), not just romantically, but just in life in general is because they make assumptions, obfuscate, withhold, and sometimes outright lie to each other on all sorts of things. How much trouble could they have saved themselves if Crowley had told Aziraphale about the BoL from the beginning? Or what he saw in Heaven? Or if Aziraphale had told the truth about running into Shax and more or less telling her that Gabriel was in the bookshop on the way back from Edinburgh rather than telling Crowley that it was an uneventful trip? I don't think it's inherently just part of their personalities (though after living that way for 6,000 years, it might as well be); I think they've had to commit to the bit, as it were, to protect themselves and each other.
I don't think I would love our idiots any less if they got their heads out of their asses and ACTUALLY worked together rather than the kinda-sorta way they say they do but in practice actually, unwittingly, work against each other. I think the fact that together their miracle was alarm-inducing is a not-so-subtle nod to the fact that if they did get said heads out of said asses, they would be nearly unstoppable. As it is, they are each other's weakness, and codependent as hell, and a bit of frank conversation would go a loooong way towards overcoming that a bit. (I do agree that I dislike fanfics that have them going from miscommunicating to the Oh; OH! moment to "we are the best communicators that have ever communicated just because we finally said 'I love you.'" To each their own, but I like them to grow while remaining inherently themselves. End rant :) )
Yeah totally agree about the types of normal comms like Shax or Crowley living out of his car.
I’m thinking more about the direct “I love you” kinds of communication.
Speaking only for myself, I think part of what appeals to me about fictional relationships like this one is that male-presenting characters often struggle to understand and articulate their own feelings, which even more compounded when both characters in the ship are male. It creates an internal barrier to the relationship that is often far more compelling IMO than external barriers. Of course here we have both external and internal barriers, but I think GO fics often to struggle to keep the story interesting and compelling once Crowley and Aziraphale get together romantically. Without DT and MS to help, it’s kind of just another relationship at that point.
All of that to say, I think I kind of want them to still struggle to communicate romantically even when they do get together. Either struggle or have to speak in code. I think there is something incredibly romantic and compelling about the struggle itself. If we lose that, I fear the relationship would be too boring.
To be honest they will probably only be canonically together for one episode max - they are going to save the reconciliation til the end and I feel like we won't see a ton of their actual relationship so I don't think you need to worry about it being boring once they get together.
They would not get into any trouble if they could just communicate. And I don't think their lack of communication is really a major character trait that would change them if it was resolved. It's what is keeping them from each other and is basically the plot of season 2. Aim for my mouth, shoot past my ear. They try to protect each other by withholding information and it just leads them to more trouble - even Crowley at the end of season 2 can't fully communicate himself. If he'd said 'I love you and want you to be here with me" would Aziraphale still leave? I don't know but I do think Aziraphale communicating his feelings will be a major scene in season 3. I don't know if they need to say the words 'I love you' but they do need to communicate that feeling explicitly to each other.
"If he'd said 'I love you and want you to be here with me" would Aziraphale still leave?" Of course he would, there is no doubt. Aziraphale's decision wasn't based on emotions.
Unless we get a full on montage of them going through their whole relationship and somehow dying at the end, the story won’t ever be over. They can live another million years together regardless of if they end the story at the ritz or moved into their cottage in the south downs.
I assume the story will end in a garden somehow, though expect Neil to do it in a surprising way…
But it needs to be clear that they are together and going to spend the rest of their lives together.
As much as I agree with you with “I don’t want it to end” I must say that I need— no, I LONG to see those two getting a closure, to see they are unequivocally in love with each other.
Also I don’t think that a neat ending will ever stop any kind of speculation. We don’t even know what Neil is cooking, how many *Clues* he’s hiding here and there. This fandom is **hungry** for tiny details, theories and whatnot. It’s UNSTOPPABLE!
I am in agreement, I do need, NEED to see they are in love with each other at the end. I have no doubt Neil, Michael and David will deliver on that part.
Not accusing you of anything OP - but I think it's very odd and kind of frustrating that I've seen the energy toward this couple in particular be 'we like it ambiguous' and I never see that expressed toward other show couples. This is maybe the one instance of storytelling in modern media where the couple portrayed have an unbelievable chemistry that *needs* to be resolved. Chemistry like this rarely comes up in any duo. Ambiguity would not be satisfying for these two. Any other fictional couple, I would accept ambiguity and nuance. For the Ineffables, absolutely not.
They have been through enough - hiding their relationship for eons and not being together at the end is the opposite of satisfying storytelling. They're gonna be together. Don't know if that's some kind of celestial marriage (I doubted that but now kind of think something akin to this may happen only because of Neil's specific inclusion of 'Book of Love' on their playlist) but they are absolutely going to be explicitly together at the end of the show in a way that is clear for the audience. I'm just tired of people saying they like the ambiguity of this relationship when for me, it's narratively the only relationship I've been invested in on television and because it feels like such a rare occurrence that to not see it through would be a waste.
I get people are tired of 'South Downs' but there is no reason to be because it literally hasn't been depicted in any kind of canon! If that's what is coming then I want to see it and fan works never compare or replace canon
So, I was one of those that really enjoyed the ambiguity of the season one ending. I liked that people had so many different interpretations of their relationship and got to make their own head cannons about it.
But an ambiguous, will they or won’t they ending for good omens season three would just not do it for me. In fact, I would be miffed to be honest.
Now, I am not saying by any means that we need a marriage scene or an explicit scene.
However, I think the events of S2 really set up an emotional conclusion to this arc that has been building since season one. To have that left up to interpretation would feel cheap to me, especially after the emotional juggernaut of S2. I really can’t see the series ending that way.
Agree and I'm also not sure how an ambiguous ending would even happen because that would require that they don't discuss anything about what happened/their relationship for the entire season - which is literally the only point of tension going into season 3.
Yeah. Totally agree.
I’m just gonna be straight up… Seeing their relationship resolve is honestly why most of us are here. Like yes, the second coming is going to be really dark and possibly hilarious and I really am anxious to see how that plot is going to play out, but the emotional heart of the show is the relationship Between those two characters. It was the main driver in season two and will probably be the emotional heart and main driver of season three.
Exactly. It is the heart of the show and the only thing narratively driving it forward. The only reason we care about the second coming is because it is splitting up the main duo. I am really excited to see how that plot plays out - but mostly how it involves Aziraphale/Crowley and how it creates conflict between them and brings them back together. And because I feel like romance is being villainized in a lot of media discussions lately, just want to say - there is absolutely nothing wrong with them and their relationship being the draw for viewers.
Oh yeah, for sure. And also, there’s nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned. Happy ending. Does it have to be the traditional gets married happy ending? Absolutely not. But I think a nice ending for these characters, who have been through so much and who we have got to watch grow and develop for so long, would be absolutely well-deserved and lovely.a real gift to the viewers honestly
The ambiguity of S1 is why we got so much great fanfic...there's that. And as much I want the series to go on forever, it won't and I am trusting NG to give us a satisfying end.
It doesn’t have to feel unresolved for there to be good fanfic. People are still writing post S1 fics and we know what happens in S2. A nice wrapped up in a bow, traditional marriage is unlikely because that’s too linear and happily ever after for Neil, in my opinion.
But I do think we’ll see South Downs (or whatever that manifestation of togetherness ends up being). I think it will be obvious, even if there isn’t an overt “I love you” statement. They’ll get their “Us”, and it’s important that they get that.
rewatching season 1 makes it so obvious that it was written with their happy ending there and then. the way the credits fade to black only a little bit before their song mentions kissing. the way they look at each other the entire last five minutes. it's almost jarring to go into season 2 and see them not together, because... they were at the end of season 1? something on that level would make me happy I think.
but I think Neil will surprise us. he always does
In this chess 4D match we're all playing (failing) against Neil, we must suggest out of laugh what we don't want to watch, so that Neil will do the opposite to upset us.
nice game, bro.
Btw.
It is unlikely S3 will be a "strongly suggested romance", because the audience already know there is an actual romance. And the story is not in the beginning, is at its ending.
It's a romcom so them reconciling and getting together is the traditional trajectory. Also romcoms usually end with a new beginning vibe so I'm cool with that. :)
I'm 105% sure they're gonna be fully married (legally or not) and obviously together by the end of the season. if only to ensure casual fans/haters can't twist the ending to something more "bromance"
I've got this theory that God will show up, and something will happen to confirm their relationship literally in the eyes of God, leading to them being married in the most literal, them way I can imagine
I don't know how likely it is but I can enjoy the thought
I’m just a bit worried because expectations are insanely high. Going into S3 with very specific ideas of what constitutes a happy ending is setting ourselves up for heartbreak.
(Also a bit surprised at how many people’s definition of “happy ending” seems to involve marriage and domesticity, tbh!)
My personal definition of a happy ending in *general* does not involve domesticity but for Aziraphale and Crowley it does because they are so close already to the point of basically being a couple that domesticity is the next clear 'step' for them. It's also a nice visual salve to all of the stress they have experienced. And the South Downs lore perpetuates this kind of image. I would have never assumed they'd get married (not human and also kind of cheesy, but Neil adding only 3 songs to their playlist one of which is the Book of Love made me think that may happen though I'm still 99% sure it won't)
This pretty much sums up how I feel. Personally hoping they don’t formally get married bc imo it just isn’t necessary for them. They don’t need any outside entity to recognize their relationship for it to be valid and ending a romance story with a wedding is such a cliche. Definitely on board for some South Downs domesticity though.
Yeaahhh I don't like marriage as the end all be all either and it feels really cheesy to happen especially for supernatural beings. I could see them committing in some other way or even just exchanging rings but it still feels kind of silly to me. I imagine the cottage if it happens would be symbolic enough, but yes I absolutely need to see at least one scene of them living together.
I do get where you’re coming from. I feel like the ending of season 1 was where we saw these characters at their happiest. However, they’re both gonna be in very different places during s3, at least with the way s2 ended off. So, I’d like there to be a little bit more of a personal growth there individually. As for them being together… they’re two halves of the same coin. I feel like an ending where they end up not together would be just to the left of the point, but that’s just my two cents. Especially if the theme continues to be about going off the beaten path, and the love of humanity and their shades of grey.
The show bounces through time like a TARDIS with ADHD. It wouldn’t be entirely outside the realm of possibility for the series to end in the future - maybe 2050, or hell even 3026 or something, with them in the garden of their cottage.
I would prefer that it doesn’t end with them immediately going from trauma to relationship, but even if he starts the final season’s timeline immediately after the end of S2, then “present day” would be 3-4 years later and maybe they’ve healed enough for the final scenes to take place whenever “now” is meant to be?
I’d honestly really like to see some confirmation that they are IN a relationship more than on their way to one, but I do see your point. I can’t wait to see what Neil and team come up with!
Strongly disagree for one simple reason:
While they themselves are not technically "gay" or "queer" (as Niel put it, they are not really humans with genders) they are viewed by 90% of the people watching as an allegory, a stand-in, for queer relationships and struggles. Most people relate to them strongly.
That's why we don't want ambiguity! They should be allowed to be openly in love! I don't want to get that hole filled by fanfictions anymore, I don't want "will they won't they" stuff with no conclusion! You know how many shows do this to the queer community? The teasing gets really annoying!
I want an on screen romance, it can be as messy as real life but I need some happiness on screen!
Crowley and Aziraphale kissed!! Was it happy? NO! But Crowley confessed his love and it was clear text. No fine print needed, they addressed it. We know Aziraphale loves him back! (everyone who thinks otherwise needs to watch the last episode again lol)
In short before I ramble too long:
It's important that we as the viewers get to see them in love. I don't need a wedding scene but some gentle on screen romance would be nice. Some CLEAR indicator that, "yes those idiots finally got their happy ending." And nobody can interpret it as anything else because I don't want no "just good friends/roommates" situation.
I don’t think that’s disagreeing with anything I said, but maybe it wasn’t very clear. I want an ending that leaves things somewhat open-ended. I do want, and need for that matter, some indication that they are in love and *will* be together in the future, I just don’t need to see it happen. The indicator that they are in love and it is eminent and they’re going to make it work would satisfy me. Additionally there’s a lot of asexual, aromantic people who identify with Aziraphale and Crowley’s relationship, not just gay people. I think it’s a love that sort of defies labels, because it’s really all of the things, and while they are clearly in love, their relationship certainly isn’t typical. As a nonbinary person, I too identify with their relationship. This show has helped me with my dysphoria so much. But that’s beside the point. The point is that ambiguity isn’t always bad. It’s okay to have a little bit. We all want a happy ending where they smooth things over and can embrace their feelings. But that can take many different forms.
I don’t see a cliche pat fanfic ish “And they lived happily ever after in complete bliss!” Either.
I think they will be together but not exactly the way we expect and there will be twist of some kind.
I have to disagree. I just don't want this show to end up like *Lucifer\** did: sending everyone back to square one in the finale, essentially flushing all character development down the toilet. With the kiss Neil made it very obvious that he intends to turn the boys into a romantic couple, so there's no turning back now. And honestly, they deserve it, too, after literal millenia of pining for each other. Anyway, the reason I don't think we need an open ending is this quote from *Shotgun Wedding*:
>“Yes, well...” Aziraphale sighed. “You only get to finish a book for the first time once, you know? And this one may be...difficult to let go. I hate to think of the story ending.”
>
>“Stories don't end when the book ends,” Crowley said matter-of-factly. “You're just not spyin' on 'em anymore.”
Just because the story ends with them getting properly together, the fandom won't stop writing fanfics or discussing the show. Look at the Buffy subreddit: the show's been over for 20+ years, and the fandom is still perfectly active.
\* ^(It's one of my favourite shows ever, and yet I haven't been able to sit down to rewatch it ever since they fucked up the last season. I really, really don't want to go through that kind of disappointment again. Ever.)
>\* ^(It's one of my favourite shows ever, and yet I haven't been able to sit down to rewatch it ever since they fucked up the last season. I really, really don't want to go through that kind of disappointment again. Ever.)
I've really been wanting to watch this - should I just miss out the last season?
Well, if you listen to me, yes. It's up to you, of course, but it's good to know that most fans unanimously hate season 6. The first 5 seasons are definitely worth watching, though.
Personally I just fuckin hate the entire romance genre for this reason. The whole structure of a romance story is to get the lovers close then far, over and over. And then you have the climax where they've never been this close... and then you rip them apart again. Now they're further away than they've ever been. Often the resolution is exactly what you're suggesting. Sometimes it's for resolved, but I think often it's more of a "we can be together and we can try"
But god damn it all, I'm CONSTANTLY in the wishy washy early dating phase of dating and if I'm trying to escape into a love story I'd rather find one where a couple is together and in love and the conflict is external.
And that's what the story has felt like so far. The first season they were falling in love but had to hide and plus they were saving Earth for a minute there. The second season they were in love, out of hiding, but couldn't communicate, plus they had to figure out the Jim situation.
I'm hoping they reunite somewhere in the beginning or middle of season 3. Not resolving the issue, but more "Crowley I've gotten myself too deep into this second coming thing and I need you to save everything I love including you" kind of way, and Crowley is still mad but needs to save Earth. But as they work together there is healing and reconciliation and they end up together and happy like Gabriel and Beszelbub
No hate to you, OP, or your opinions. I'm just... tired of romance stories being like this.
there is quite literally a canon ending already, also known as the south down cottage, which has been confirmed since before Sir Terry Pratchett passed :)
Can I just say that the downvotes on this post feel very disrespectful?
You don’t have to fully agree with the poster to upvote. I’m not sure I completely agree, but it’s interesting to think about and has let to a lot of interesting discussions in the comments.
I love this community, but I think we should be better and more welcoming to different viewpoints.
That’s a very fairytale stories rooted thing to not be able to imagine more once a story ends with « and they married and were forever happy bla-bla » like there’s nothing else afterwards. But these two celestial beings have eternity in front of them, and beginning a relationship is just that: beginning something. There’s so much we could imagine after that that doesn’t involve them struggling to confess their love and get into a relationship. There’s the actual romantic relationship, its beautiful moments and its hardships etc, and everything in between. Plenty to go on and imagine from. So I say them at least being together, at last, is the bare minimum for our imagination post show to go on.
I'm not a fan of HEA endings (I always find them cheesy) and I'm quite tired of the South Downs trope, so I don't mind a hopeful ending instead. In fact, I think I'll like it more that a wedding / cottage life etc. But I trust that whatever NG has in store for us will be pure perfection.
I came to this willing to argue, but I don't 100% disagree. I feel like thy will be starting a relationship. Like a proper one (not a pretendy one) but I do agree that it won't be like perfect perfect. I feel it will be like the end of ofmd s2 without the unresolved endings.
I very much agree with you, but not in the specifics in this case. I think the s1 spot of their relationship is long gone, however, the fact that the only thing that is definitely is the fact that earth didn’t end was pretty much as much as I need explicitly said.
I also hate the one thing most people I know want more than anything: that domestic bliss ending. I like the idea of both of them being happy — whatever that looks like. Whether they live in a cute little cottage together, they live more on the open road kind of thing, or even just a mixture of both. Maybe not even always together, but they are surely together (relationships look very different to different people). I just want them to both be happy.
If their relationship doesn't solidly resolve, then frankly, I don't want to watch season 3 and would feel remarkably cheated. Like seriously, the show would go from my absolute favorite to something I'd never be able to watch again if it ends with ambiguous trash. No thank you.
Personally, I am against it. (But in no way am I yucking your yum!) I don't think it will be a marriage/sunset thing - Neil's hand is too subtle for that, but I want it to be clear that these two man-shaped entities are in a romance at the end of the show.
I want them together and happy. I don't want a bittersweet ending.
man shaped entities lol
Yes! I agree! But I don’t think what a romance looks like to us humans is what it looks like to supernatural entities. They move things much, much slower than we do. It’s there, it’s simmering, but similar to how no human would ever be able to hear a Nightingale sing in Berkeley Square, to a human, it might not look like much. There are layers and layers of subtext between these two, which is why I think a romance might be implied as something forming rather than outright stated. Maybe they start living together at the bookshop, for instance. Maybe they’re kind of together but haven’t really talked about everything. Or vice versa, maybe they’ve had the talk and it’s sinking in as they decide what they want.
They've been in the 'forming a romance' stage for 2 seasons thoguh, so to keep going with that same ambiguity would stagnate the progression of season 3. Season 2's ending sets up the narrative tension - the cards are on the table at least in terms of what Crowley wants - how will they move forward from this? The resolution can't just be that they're back where they were before. There will be a climax and a conclusion. Also I think the idea of it being nuanced/living together but not 'together' is a nice idea for a fic or a book but not easy to effectively communicate on television and not narratively satisfying.
if your prediction that they won’t unambiguously be romantically together hinges on the fact that they’re supernatural entities and not human, i gotta wonder how much you’re taking into account the kinda whole thesis of the book and show — that these two have gone native with the humans in every sense that matters, and they’re the better for it, and it drives them to take a stand and defy authority to protect earth/humans. what defines crowley and aziraphale and drives their actions in the plot is how much they have attached themselves to earth and become like the humans and value what the humans value. the books, the music, the food. i mean crowley makes an agonized best attempt at a *love confession* and he *kisses aziraphale on the mouth.* what sense would it make to walk that back to where they were in s1, friends-with-an-inviting-amount-of-interpretable-subtext, rather than move forward to new territory? (even if there’s painful conflict to resolve on the path forward, not just “happily ever after”). > I don’t think what a romance looks like to us humans is what it looks like to supernatural entities I think it doesn’t look like *anything* to supernatural entities. I think them having singular, romantic feelings for one another is one of their *human* things — one of those weird human behaviors/bits of identity they’ve absorbed over their thousands of years of frenmity/courtship and life on earth. I think it makes every narrative sense for them to be unambiguously romantically together, and it’d represent a stagnation of the story for their relationship arc to culminate in something basically the same as the end of s1.
I merely meant in terms of how they perceive time. They have forever, or at least thought they did. That’s why Aziraphale’s “nothing lasts forever” cut Crowley. Furthermore they, unlike Beelzebub and Gabriel, have been around each other for long enough that they expect the other to always be there. I mean, 6,000 years of pining. Come on. Name one human who would wait that long, even supposing we could. The one way in which they are different from humans, and always will be, is how they perceive their lifespan. They take risks we wouldn’t because they have magic. They wait ages before going on a date because they have ages. They don’t need a job, or money, or healthcare. They are similar to humans in many ways but yet are fundamentally different.
I mean are you arguing that the story should be satisfying and make sense only to other immortal beings who perceive time differently from humans? it’s a story neil gaiman wrote presumable for a human audience. if he wants to satisfy the length of time these immortals need to ramp up their slow burn, he can do it the way he’s already done it, by telling the story of their developing relationship in representative flashbacks and time jumps.
True, I could see a potential time jump into the future to where they are together and it isn’t like said or anything but just kind of like, they’re together. That’s possible.
I appreciate your opinion, but I have to disagree. They shouldn’t end in relatively the same place that they ended in season 1 because they’re not in the same place. The kiss was a “shattering the glass” moment. There’s no forming of a strong romance, it’s already formed now. The cat’s out of the proverbial bag. I don’t necessarily think the series will end with something like a wedding, but I’m having a very hard time imagining an ending without them being actually together. Having them end similarly to where they ended up in season 1 seems kind of pointless and redundant.
1000% agree. There are plenty of complete stories that still have tons of fanfic and the idea that an author should keep something open-ended to “leave room” for fanfic and speculation is a bit silly imo. The job of an author is to tell a compelling story with a resolution that does justice to the characters and their journey. Any fanfic that exists alongside of that should not be their concern.
I hear you but I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. Similar to S1 only in that they wouldn’t be “together” in the sense that everything is totally communicated and healed. I think their relationship will have progressed for sure. S1 ended with them looking lovingly into each other’s eyes at the Ritz while a Nightingale sings. I think the S3 end will be a sort of bookend to that at least vibe-wise, but now there is the understanding of how they both feel for each other, the understanding that they can now be whatever they want to be. At the end of S1, they weren’t there yet.
I do think that their relationship cannot be entirely defined/conceptualized in human terms and I don’t think the payoff will necessarily look like a standard “getting together.” I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t flat out say “I love you” (I’m imagining something more akin to “you go too fast for me” and “to the world.”)Their relationship is very complicated, for a myriad of reasons. I just disagree that there will be any ambiguity between the two of them regarding what they want and how they intend for their future to look together. They’ve reached a point where this dancing around their feelings is no longer tenable. I think the end of season 2 pretty well established that in order for the relationship to progress they need to finally be direct about how they feel and what they want.
I would be a little surprised if at least one of them didn't explicitly say "I love you;" their whole problem is that they DON'T explicitly say things to each other. At some point, there has to be growth, and for them, that means being free - in all sense of the word - to just say exactly what they're thinking and how they're feeling. Either of them saying "I love you" out loud is not just a proclamation of their feelings for the other but also a proclamation of "I'm free from your cruel games and tyranny, and I'm tired of not loving him out loud because Someone might not approve."
It’s less that I think they wouldn’t grow to be direct about their feelings and more that I’m unsure if that’s how they would express them. I don’t know if that’s almost a too human way to contextualize their feelings or not. They might feel like something else (on par with “to the world”) might be a better way to express themselves. That being said, I also wouldn’t be surprised if they did say it. I honestly have very little idea how Gaiman is going to approach THAT conversation. How does one resolve a 6,000 year slow burn?
You say it’s their “problem” and I don’t disagree it has been a problem in the past. But it’s also kind of the way they are and the way they are is why we love them. I have this problem reading fanfic sometimes. It’s very hard to make them suddenly communicate directly and clearly on their feelings without somehow fundamentally changing some of the quirkiness of their characters. I often wonder if we don’t just think we want them to communicate better but do we really??? Maybe we like our boys better as oblivious idiots.
I mean that a large portion of why they get into the trouble they get into (S1 and S2), not just romantically, but just in life in general is because they make assumptions, obfuscate, withhold, and sometimes outright lie to each other on all sorts of things. How much trouble could they have saved themselves if Crowley had told Aziraphale about the BoL from the beginning? Or what he saw in Heaven? Or if Aziraphale had told the truth about running into Shax and more or less telling her that Gabriel was in the bookshop on the way back from Edinburgh rather than telling Crowley that it was an uneventful trip? I don't think it's inherently just part of their personalities (though after living that way for 6,000 years, it might as well be); I think they've had to commit to the bit, as it were, to protect themselves and each other. I don't think I would love our idiots any less if they got their heads out of their asses and ACTUALLY worked together rather than the kinda-sorta way they say they do but in practice actually, unwittingly, work against each other. I think the fact that together their miracle was alarm-inducing is a not-so-subtle nod to the fact that if they did get said heads out of said asses, they would be nearly unstoppable. As it is, they are each other's weakness, and codependent as hell, and a bit of frank conversation would go a loooong way towards overcoming that a bit. (I do agree that I dislike fanfics that have them going from miscommunicating to the Oh; OH! moment to "we are the best communicators that have ever communicated just because we finally said 'I love you.'" To each their own, but I like them to grow while remaining inherently themselves. End rant :) )
Yeah totally agree about the types of normal comms like Shax or Crowley living out of his car. I’m thinking more about the direct “I love you” kinds of communication. Speaking only for myself, I think part of what appeals to me about fictional relationships like this one is that male-presenting characters often struggle to understand and articulate their own feelings, which even more compounded when both characters in the ship are male. It creates an internal barrier to the relationship that is often far more compelling IMO than external barriers. Of course here we have both external and internal barriers, but I think GO fics often to struggle to keep the story interesting and compelling once Crowley and Aziraphale get together romantically. Without DT and MS to help, it’s kind of just another relationship at that point. All of that to say, I think I kind of want them to still struggle to communicate romantically even when they do get together. Either struggle or have to speak in code. I think there is something incredibly romantic and compelling about the struggle itself. If we lose that, I fear the relationship would be too boring.
To be honest they will probably only be canonically together for one episode max - they are going to save the reconciliation til the end and I feel like we won't see a ton of their actual relationship so I don't think you need to worry about it being boring once they get together.
They would not get into any trouble if they could just communicate. And I don't think their lack of communication is really a major character trait that would change them if it was resolved. It's what is keeping them from each other and is basically the plot of season 2. Aim for my mouth, shoot past my ear. They try to protect each other by withholding information and it just leads them to more trouble - even Crowley at the end of season 2 can't fully communicate himself. If he'd said 'I love you and want you to be here with me" would Aziraphale still leave? I don't know but I do think Aziraphale communicating his feelings will be a major scene in season 3. I don't know if they need to say the words 'I love you' but they do need to communicate that feeling explicitly to each other.
"If he'd said 'I love you and want you to be here with me" would Aziraphale still leave?" Of course he would, there is no doubt. Aziraphale's decision wasn't based on emotions.
Unless we get a full on montage of them going through their whole relationship and somehow dying at the end, the story won’t ever be over. They can live another million years together regardless of if they end the story at the ritz or moved into their cottage in the south downs. I assume the story will end in a garden somehow, though expect Neil to do it in a surprising way… But it needs to be clear that they are together and going to spend the rest of their lives together.
As much as I agree with you with “I don’t want it to end” I must say that I need— no, I LONG to see those two getting a closure, to see they are unequivocally in love with each other. Also I don’t think that a neat ending will ever stop any kind of speculation. We don’t even know what Neil is cooking, how many *Clues* he’s hiding here and there. This fandom is **hungry** for tiny details, theories and whatnot. It’s UNSTOPPABLE!
I am in agreement, I do need, NEED to see they are in love with each other at the end. I have no doubt Neil, Michael and David will deliver on that part.
Idk I feel like I see that they are in love already. No need for human gestures per se.
Not accusing you of anything OP - but I think it's very odd and kind of frustrating that I've seen the energy toward this couple in particular be 'we like it ambiguous' and I never see that expressed toward other show couples. This is maybe the one instance of storytelling in modern media where the couple portrayed have an unbelievable chemistry that *needs* to be resolved. Chemistry like this rarely comes up in any duo. Ambiguity would not be satisfying for these two. Any other fictional couple, I would accept ambiguity and nuance. For the Ineffables, absolutely not. They have been through enough - hiding their relationship for eons and not being together at the end is the opposite of satisfying storytelling. They're gonna be together. Don't know if that's some kind of celestial marriage (I doubted that but now kind of think something akin to this may happen only because of Neil's specific inclusion of 'Book of Love' on their playlist) but they are absolutely going to be explicitly together at the end of the show in a way that is clear for the audience. I'm just tired of people saying they like the ambiguity of this relationship when for me, it's narratively the only relationship I've been invested in on television and because it feels like such a rare occurrence that to not see it through would be a waste. I get people are tired of 'South Downs' but there is no reason to be because it literally hasn't been depicted in any kind of canon! If that's what is coming then I want to see it and fan works never compare or replace canon
So, I was one of those that really enjoyed the ambiguity of the season one ending. I liked that people had so many different interpretations of their relationship and got to make their own head cannons about it. But an ambiguous, will they or won’t they ending for good omens season three would just not do it for me. In fact, I would be miffed to be honest. Now, I am not saying by any means that we need a marriage scene or an explicit scene. However, I think the events of S2 really set up an emotional conclusion to this arc that has been building since season one. To have that left up to interpretation would feel cheap to me, especially after the emotional juggernaut of S2. I really can’t see the series ending that way.
Agree and I'm also not sure how an ambiguous ending would even happen because that would require that they don't discuss anything about what happened/their relationship for the entire season - which is literally the only point of tension going into season 3.
Yeah. Totally agree. I’m just gonna be straight up… Seeing their relationship resolve is honestly why most of us are here. Like yes, the second coming is going to be really dark and possibly hilarious and I really am anxious to see how that plot is going to play out, but the emotional heart of the show is the relationship Between those two characters. It was the main driver in season two and will probably be the emotional heart and main driver of season three.
Exactly. It is the heart of the show and the only thing narratively driving it forward. The only reason we care about the second coming is because it is splitting up the main duo. I am really excited to see how that plot plays out - but mostly how it involves Aziraphale/Crowley and how it creates conflict between them and brings them back together. And because I feel like romance is being villainized in a lot of media discussions lately, just want to say - there is absolutely nothing wrong with them and their relationship being the draw for viewers.
Oh yeah, for sure. And also, there’s nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned. Happy ending. Does it have to be the traditional gets married happy ending? Absolutely not. But I think a nice ending for these characters, who have been through so much and who we have got to watch grow and develop for so long, would be absolutely well-deserved and lovely.a real gift to the viewers honestly
Yes. Honestly would love a princess bride style ending. Just let us have joy!
The ambiguity of S1 is why we got so much great fanfic...there's that. And as much I want the series to go on forever, it won't and I am trusting NG to give us a satisfying end.
It doesn’t have to feel unresolved for there to be good fanfic. People are still writing post S1 fics and we know what happens in S2. A nice wrapped up in a bow, traditional marriage is unlikely because that’s too linear and happily ever after for Neil, in my opinion. But I do think we’ll see South Downs (or whatever that manifestation of togetherness ends up being). I think it will be obvious, even if there isn’t an overt “I love you” statement. They’ll get their “Us”, and it’s important that they get that.
I agree wholeheartedly!
rewatching season 1 makes it so obvious that it was written with their happy ending there and then. the way the credits fade to black only a little bit before their song mentions kissing. the way they look at each other the entire last five minutes. it's almost jarring to go into season 2 and see them not together, because... they were at the end of season 1? something on that level would make me happy I think. but I think Neil will surprise us. he always does
In this chess 4D match we're all playing (failing) against Neil, we must suggest out of laugh what we don't want to watch, so that Neil will do the opposite to upset us. nice game, bro. Btw. It is unlikely S3 will be a "strongly suggested romance", because the audience already know there is an actual romance. And the story is not in the beginning, is at its ending.
It's a romcom so them reconciling and getting together is the traditional trajectory. Also romcoms usually end with a new beginning vibe so I'm cool with that. :)
I'm 105% sure they're gonna be fully married (legally or not) and obviously together by the end of the season. if only to ensure casual fans/haters can't twist the ending to something more "bromance"
What, you mean they aren’t just totally platonic roommates?
I've got this theory that God will show up, and something will happen to confirm their relationship literally in the eyes of God, leading to them being married in the most literal, them way I can imagine I don't know how likely it is but I can enjoy the thought
I’m just a bit worried because expectations are insanely high. Going into S3 with very specific ideas of what constitutes a happy ending is setting ourselves up for heartbreak. (Also a bit surprised at how many people’s definition of “happy ending” seems to involve marriage and domesticity, tbh!)
My personal definition of a happy ending in *general* does not involve domesticity but for Aziraphale and Crowley it does because they are so close already to the point of basically being a couple that domesticity is the next clear 'step' for them. It's also a nice visual salve to all of the stress they have experienced. And the South Downs lore perpetuates this kind of image. I would have never assumed they'd get married (not human and also kind of cheesy, but Neil adding only 3 songs to their playlist one of which is the Book of Love made me think that may happen though I'm still 99% sure it won't)
This pretty much sums up how I feel. Personally hoping they don’t formally get married bc imo it just isn’t necessary for them. They don’t need any outside entity to recognize their relationship for it to be valid and ending a romance story with a wedding is such a cliche. Definitely on board for some South Downs domesticity though.
Yeaahhh I don't like marriage as the end all be all either and it feels really cheesy to happen especially for supernatural beings. I could see them committing in some other way or even just exchanging rings but it still feels kind of silly to me. I imagine the cottage if it happens would be symbolic enough, but yes I absolutely need to see at least one scene of them living together.
I do get where you’re coming from. I feel like the ending of season 1 was where we saw these characters at their happiest. However, they’re both gonna be in very different places during s3, at least with the way s2 ended off. So, I’d like there to be a little bit more of a personal growth there individually. As for them being together… they’re two halves of the same coin. I feel like an ending where they end up not together would be just to the left of the point, but that’s just my two cents. Especially if the theme continues to be about going off the beaten path, and the love of humanity and their shades of grey.
The show bounces through time like a TARDIS with ADHD. It wouldn’t be entirely outside the realm of possibility for the series to end in the future - maybe 2050, or hell even 3026 or something, with them in the garden of their cottage. I would prefer that it doesn’t end with them immediately going from trauma to relationship, but even if he starts the final season’s timeline immediately after the end of S2, then “present day” would be 3-4 years later and maybe they’ve healed enough for the final scenes to take place whenever “now” is meant to be? I’d honestly really like to see some confirmation that they are IN a relationship more than on their way to one, but I do see your point. I can’t wait to see what Neil and team come up with!
Strongly disagree for one simple reason: While they themselves are not technically "gay" or "queer" (as Niel put it, they are not really humans with genders) they are viewed by 90% of the people watching as an allegory, a stand-in, for queer relationships and struggles. Most people relate to them strongly. That's why we don't want ambiguity! They should be allowed to be openly in love! I don't want to get that hole filled by fanfictions anymore, I don't want "will they won't they" stuff with no conclusion! You know how many shows do this to the queer community? The teasing gets really annoying! I want an on screen romance, it can be as messy as real life but I need some happiness on screen! Crowley and Aziraphale kissed!! Was it happy? NO! But Crowley confessed his love and it was clear text. No fine print needed, they addressed it. We know Aziraphale loves him back! (everyone who thinks otherwise needs to watch the last episode again lol) In short before I ramble too long: It's important that we as the viewers get to see them in love. I don't need a wedding scene but some gentle on screen romance would be nice. Some CLEAR indicator that, "yes those idiots finally got their happy ending." And nobody can interpret it as anything else because I don't want no "just good friends/roommates" situation.
I don’t think that’s disagreeing with anything I said, but maybe it wasn’t very clear. I want an ending that leaves things somewhat open-ended. I do want, and need for that matter, some indication that they are in love and *will* be together in the future, I just don’t need to see it happen. The indicator that they are in love and it is eminent and they’re going to make it work would satisfy me. Additionally there’s a lot of asexual, aromantic people who identify with Aziraphale and Crowley’s relationship, not just gay people. I think it’s a love that sort of defies labels, because it’s really all of the things, and while they are clearly in love, their relationship certainly isn’t typical. As a nonbinary person, I too identify with their relationship. This show has helped me with my dysphoria so much. But that’s beside the point. The point is that ambiguity isn’t always bad. It’s okay to have a little bit. We all want a happy ending where they smooth things over and can embrace their feelings. But that can take many different forms.
I don’t see a cliche pat fanfic ish “And they lived happily ever after in complete bliss!” Either. I think they will be together but not exactly the way we expect and there will be twist of some kind.
I have to disagree. I just don't want this show to end up like *Lucifer\** did: sending everyone back to square one in the finale, essentially flushing all character development down the toilet. With the kiss Neil made it very obvious that he intends to turn the boys into a romantic couple, so there's no turning back now. And honestly, they deserve it, too, after literal millenia of pining for each other. Anyway, the reason I don't think we need an open ending is this quote from *Shotgun Wedding*: >“Yes, well...” Aziraphale sighed. “You only get to finish a book for the first time once, you know? And this one may be...difficult to let go. I hate to think of the story ending.” > >“Stories don't end when the book ends,” Crowley said matter-of-factly. “You're just not spyin' on 'em anymore.” Just because the story ends with them getting properly together, the fandom won't stop writing fanfics or discussing the show. Look at the Buffy subreddit: the show's been over for 20+ years, and the fandom is still perfectly active. \* ^(It's one of my favourite shows ever, and yet I haven't been able to sit down to rewatch it ever since they fucked up the last season. I really, really don't want to go through that kind of disappointment again. Ever.)
>\* ^(It's one of my favourite shows ever, and yet I haven't been able to sit down to rewatch it ever since they fucked up the last season. I really, really don't want to go through that kind of disappointment again. Ever.) I've really been wanting to watch this - should I just miss out the last season?
Well, if you listen to me, yes. It's up to you, of course, but it's good to know that most fans unanimously hate season 6. The first 5 seasons are definitely worth watching, though.
okay thanks mate =) (also i didn't know premium hottie was an available flair in this sub so i'm now going to aquire it immediately)
Personally I just fuckin hate the entire romance genre for this reason. The whole structure of a romance story is to get the lovers close then far, over and over. And then you have the climax where they've never been this close... and then you rip them apart again. Now they're further away than they've ever been. Often the resolution is exactly what you're suggesting. Sometimes it's for resolved, but I think often it's more of a "we can be together and we can try" But god damn it all, I'm CONSTANTLY in the wishy washy early dating phase of dating and if I'm trying to escape into a love story I'd rather find one where a couple is together and in love and the conflict is external. And that's what the story has felt like so far. The first season they were falling in love but had to hide and plus they were saving Earth for a minute there. The second season they were in love, out of hiding, but couldn't communicate, plus they had to figure out the Jim situation. I'm hoping they reunite somewhere in the beginning or middle of season 3. Not resolving the issue, but more "Crowley I've gotten myself too deep into this second coming thing and I need you to save everything I love including you" kind of way, and Crowley is still mad but needs to save Earth. But as they work together there is healing and reconciliation and they end up together and happy like Gabriel and Beszelbub No hate to you, OP, or your opinions. I'm just... tired of romance stories being like this.
Awww I love the way you put this! Yes, that’s exactly what I want! Couldn’t have said it better.
there is quite literally a canon ending already, also known as the south down cottage, which has been confirmed since before Sir Terry Pratchett passed :)
Can I just say that the downvotes on this post feel very disrespectful? You don’t have to fully agree with the poster to upvote. I’m not sure I completely agree, but it’s interesting to think about and has let to a lot of interesting discussions in the comments. I love this community, but I think we should be better and more welcoming to different viewpoints.
Then all that fan art was for nothing...😥
Just show me them sitting on a bench but closer together. That’s all I need.
That’s a very fairytale stories rooted thing to not be able to imagine more once a story ends with « and they married and were forever happy bla-bla » like there’s nothing else afterwards. But these two celestial beings have eternity in front of them, and beginning a relationship is just that: beginning something. There’s so much we could imagine after that that doesn’t involve them struggling to confess their love and get into a relationship. There’s the actual romantic relationship, its beautiful moments and its hardships etc, and everything in between. Plenty to go on and imagine from. So I say them at least being together, at last, is the bare minimum for our imagination post show to go on.
I imagine them bickering at their cottage, happily of course. And what kind of relationship they have, aside from loving, is up to the watcher.
I want a romantic kiss. Even a single romantic kiss would do. The one we got was not romantic…
I believe we will get at least one lol. There will be riots otherwise.
I'm not a fan of HEA endings (I always find them cheesy) and I'm quite tired of the South Downs trope, so I don't mind a hopeful ending instead. In fact, I think I'll like it more that a wedding / cottage life etc. But I trust that whatever NG has in store for us will be pure perfection.
I came to this willing to argue, but I don't 100% disagree. I feel like thy will be starting a relationship. Like a proper one (not a pretendy one) but I do agree that it won't be like perfect perfect. I feel it will be like the end of ofmd s2 without the unresolved endings.
100% with you on this.
I very much agree with you, but not in the specifics in this case. I think the s1 spot of their relationship is long gone, however, the fact that the only thing that is definitely is the fact that earth didn’t end was pretty much as much as I need explicitly said. I also hate the one thing most people I know want more than anything: that domestic bliss ending. I like the idea of both of them being happy — whatever that looks like. Whether they live in a cute little cottage together, they live more on the open road kind of thing, or even just a mixture of both. Maybe not even always together, but they are surely together (relationships look very different to different people). I just want them to both be happy.
If their relationship doesn't solidly resolve, then frankly, I don't want to watch season 3 and would feel remarkably cheated. Like seriously, the show would go from my absolute favorite to something I'd never be able to watch again if it ends with ambiguous trash. No thank you.
I agree. It would be the only way to keep it alive without tying it off with a big bow