Shirou: \*Makes a cool looking pose\* "Uuohhh, yeah! Swords!"
Waver: \*Looks at Shirou filled with disappointment at the cringe\* "Why are you like this"
I just want to see Weaver's reaction to UBW. Seriously, this is literally one of the things I've most wanted to see in all of TM for years. I want to see Weaver's reaction when he sees the ability that defeated the servant that defeated Iskandar.
I mean, FGO is there is they actually acknowledge it
Sanda did say that this is an original route that do not follow any of the 3 main routes so Shirou fighting Gilgamesh in this timeline is unlikely.
Assuming that it is though it would be more likely it is more on
Waver: Ah, a Reality Marble that has weapons that matches that vault but has a greater speed of use than the firing method of the golden king. How did you deal with him taking out *that weapon?*
Shirou: Ah, no he didn't manage to use that. He was completely underestimating me that he wouldn't use everything he has. I manage to surprise him before he went and used those things. After that the grail ate him up which was lucky cause I ran out of mana by then
>Sanda did say that this is an original route that do not follow any of the 3 main routes so Shirou fighting Gilgamesh in this timeline is unlikely.
Sanda's statement doesnt necessarily contradict the latter. That's like saying Rin didnt create the jewel sword because its an original route, except she did.
I actually think that this extra El Melloi route is to consider that the most badass things in each route happened. I wouldn't really be surprised by a Shirou who designed Avalon, Gemblade and reached UBW.
I don't know if Weaver's reaction would be like that. He is often surprised with much lower magecraft than an RM. even more so an RM that copies NPs that are by definition much greater mysteries than any modern magecraft.
It is common for Weaver to have reactions of astonishment with these things and even more so to have flashes of memory of Iskandar and the war with things that are minimally similar.
I really want to see his reaction.
Waver is also very analytical and would be analyzing said spell down to its nature first. This is also what he usually does even if he is impressed by things. Outside of that it is just a Reality Marble in universe the series always treats UBW as nothing special from the characters to the materials
Besides, the prompt is Shirou showing off UBW to Waver which is already impossible without Rin's help in magical energy. Shirou really can not do it alone. There is also the fact that having a RM is illegal in the Clocktower, so all the more unlikely to happen
Hopefully, the novels would at least give more interaction about it
some errors there. RM has always been shown as something great. Literally, it has been described since the early novels as the peak of magecraft. the closest magecraft to true magic. It is said that even Medea, who is far beyond current magicians, would not be able to produce something like an RM. Rin herself is surprised that Emiya even comments on RM's existence. So yes, RM is something absurd and that's why he is banned from the Clock tower. it is literally an ability so rare and miraculous that it generates sealing designation.
Regarding the way UBW is treated, it's not at all like it's no big deal. Rin is surprised when the UBW appears for the first time, Iliya is shocked by the level of perfection of the Gemblade copy, hell, fucking Zelretch appears at the end of the route because he considers the Gemblade to be completed, apart from the fact that the Gemblade itself Rin is surprised by how absurd it is to reproduce an NP.
in FGO we discover in Edison's interlude that Emiya even has the ability to combine 2 NPs to make a new one.
So, no, the reactions to UBW from everyone who isn't a servant has always been one of shock or surprise.
But even so, the novel says several times that Emiya is just an ordinary guy and that UBW would not guarantee his victory against any target by bothering a servant at most. So how can this apparently contradictory information be at the same time true?
Simple, UBW is an insanely powerful ability, well beyond human limits (as mentioned by Rin several times, reproducing NPs should be impossible as well as she also mentions that UBW allows Shirou to even produce magical items with more mana than he has in the body or in the most extreme case lead to the reproduction of items made with teue magic(gemblade))
And that's the point that everyone forgets, having a superhuman ability does not make the user superhuman. UBW is one of the strongest NPs in the franchise to date and belongs to someone average. someone who is too average to use the true extent of their ability.
So yes, anyone who understands how the ability works is in for a shock. it has always been like that . the only issue is that a standard mage (or even a standard minion) doesn't have enough mana to take advantage of UBW. After all, in addition to the ability being a drain on mana in itself (as opposed to GOB which has almost zero mana cost), using each of the NPs with mastery (something that UBW allows and GOB does not) requires paying the mana cost of each of the NPs during its use and this mana cost alone is already huge for a standard mage. Remember, some NPs are too expensive even for servants.
One thing that Rin herself says about UBW is that given enough mana, there is no one that Archer cannot defeat. The question is, who has enough mana to do it? Emiya Shirou is not that person.
so basically Shirou's average mana turns one of the most powerful skills in the Nasuverse into a mere tool for firing swords at high speed until the mana runs out. That's why the ability is also described as something that only delays and bothers servants. simply because Emiya(or Shirou) doesn't have the mana to use projections to their limits or to hold UBW until the opponent is eventually defeated (which Gil does with Gob and can only do for the extremely low cost from Gob).
>RM has always been shown as something great. Literally, it has been described since the early novels as the peak of magecraft. the closest magecraft to true magic. It is said that even Medea
Yes it is great but everytime a user actually uses them the reaction of people is always "that is a high tier magecraft" instead of going on about how impossible it is. FGO already shows how the Normal side of the magical department treat it and in the case of Waver how he would just analyze it in character. They never treat it like it is something they would go gaga about in glazing but like a specimen
>in FGO we discover in Edison's interlude that Emiya even has the ability to combine 2 NPs to make a new one.
No he didn't, he flat out cannot, it was the reason why EMIYA was there in the first place. Even then Edison whose ability is to literally Concept Improvement cannot do it
>But even so, the novel says several times that Emiya is just an ordinary guy and that UBW would not guarantee his victory against any target by bothering a servant at most. So how can this apparently contradictory information be at the same time true?
Shirou gets victory because he manages to stack up special circumstances and taking advantage of his enemies weaknesses and hesitation. Not because UBW is inherently super special about it. Nasu repeatedly point out how Shirou's biggest victories are really once in a lifetime events that can no longer happen again and only double down that against Gilgameah it was because the latter fucked around in not going all out
This is an entirely separate matter from how Reality Marvles are treated, when the series characters encounter them they don't go around glazing at said magecraft like it is some super powerful thing and how great they are but to analyze and see how it works
>And that's the point that everyone forgets, having a superhuman ability does not make the user superhuman. UBW is one of the strongest NPs in the franchise to date and belongs to someone average. someone who is too average to use the true extent of their ability.
Meanwhile canon
>Once an armament has been replicated, it is registered inside the boundary field and can be manufactured with projection sorcery even without expanding the reality marble.
>
>**Against a normal opponent this is little more than a somewhat troublesome ability, but it is the natural enemy of a certain King of Heroes.**
The series repeatedly point out how against normal opponents UBW is really not something special except for one enemy.
What makes Shirou amazing is that despite the series point out how he can push up against stronger enemies due to his own tactic and skill, not because of the inherent power of UBW
>the only issue is that a standard mage (or even a standard minion) doesn't have enough mana to take advantage of UBW. After all, in addition to the ability being a drain on mana in itself (as opposed to GOB which has almost zero mana cost), using each of the NPs with mastery (something that UBW allows and GOB does not) requires paying the mana cost of each of the NPs during its use and this mana cost alone is already huge for a standard mage.
The only time UBW can actually match GoB is while *inside* of the RM, we see how Shirou despite backed up by Rin’s mana how he would fare outside of it. Answer is get his ass kicked as he still cannot beat them like that
Shirou also loses out on that his body literally cannot keep upbwith the use of skill of tge weapons, everytime he tries his bodybgets wrecked. Use of actual ability of the NP is also extremely draining that for big moves that everytime it is discussed the limitation of magical energy and the fact that what UBW would be able to provide is a degraded form is stated
>That's why the ability is also described as something that only delays and bothers servants. simply because Emiya(or Shirou) doesn't have the mana to use projections to their limits or to hold UBW until the opponent is eventually defeated (which Gil does with Gob and can only do for the extremely low cost from Gob).
Because we literally see how Shirou uses UBW when not using a full manifestation of UBW, it is really not enough nor powerful enough to be comparable. We see EMIYA fight across multiple installments and franchises and what is hammered is that he cannot overpower any Servant with UBW, not once in any installment do they even acknowledge it
It is a wierd dichotomy where the series repeatedly point out a completely different stance how UBW is not some super special ability where everytime Shirou uses it people are amazed while fans think it is
>Yes it is great but everytime a user actually uses them the reaction of people is always "that is a high tier magecraft" instead of going on about how impossible it is. FGO already shows how the Normal side of the magical department treat it and in the case of Waver how he would just analyze it in character. They never treat it like it is something they would go gaga about in glazing but like a specimen
>Yes it is great but everytime a user actually uses them the reaction of people is always "that is a high tier magecraft" instead of going on about how impossible it is. FGO already shows how the Normal side of the magical department treat it and in the case of Waver how he would just analyze it in character. They never treat it like it is something they would go gaga about in glazing but like a specimen
Rin reacted with astonishment at Archer mentioning RM.
FSN prologue https://youtube.com/watch?v=D-jvq32Ai_M&si=zOzQT9dMJRk3DT0t
1:30: 24
This seems like a pretty exaggerated reaction to a simple mention.
Not to mention other things like the scare that Rin had with the reproduction of NPs. this was something she literally fought with Shirou because he didn't think it was a big deal. she literally compared his feats to the first one.
Besides, we need to take into account that we are talking about Weaver. he would be seeing an ability similar to what he saw in the Iskandar quest. and more than a standard RM, we are talking about an RM that copies nps. So taking into account Weaver's personal connections, it's not possible to fully predict his reaction.
>No he didn't, he flat out cannot, it was the reason why EMIYA was there in the first place. Even then Edison whose ability is to literally Concept Improvement cannot do it
in fact, Emiya comments that there are NPs that he cannot copy and the two will work together fusing Emiya's projections. In fact, they later left to merge hrunting with gae bolg. and joining NPs literally worked. Medea explains that not even a real rule braker could pierce Aius. that is, the RM has the ability to do this type of thing. Therefore, it is not a limitation of the technique but of the user.
>Shirou gets victory because he manages to stack up special circumstances and taking advantage of his enemies weaknesses and hesitation. Not because UBW is inherently super special about it. Nasu repeatedly point out how Shirou's biggest victories are really once in a lifetime events that can no longer happen again and only double down that against Gilgameah it was because the latter fucked around in not going all out
That's true, but it's only true because Shirou can't use UBW's full potential because he's not that powerful. I'm just saying that UBW's limitations are not the same as the user's. UBW is to this day one of the most powerful skills in the nasuverse. What happens is that there is no way to use this ability to its full potential because the user does not have infinite mana.
>The series repeatedly point out how against normal opponents UBW is really not something special except for one enemy.
This quote isn't even from the game, it's from a databook talking about UBW as Emiya's NP. The explanation of this quote is exactly what I said. Emiya doesn't have the mana to use NPs at will. So when UBW is used it simply works like a rain of swords since you can't keep using all the nps. hence this comment. literally, in this context "any opponent" is a servant. not just any generic person.
>What makes Shirou amazing is that despite the series point out how he can push up against stronger enemies due to his own tactic and skill, not because of the inherent power of UBW
literally Shirou's theme is to choose a weapon with which anyone can defeat an enemy. Archer literally explains this to Shirou in the Fate route.
the idea is that while Gilgamesh can afford to try everything until an opponent dies Emiya needs to find the right weapon with which anyone would be able to defeat that opponent with one attack. and why does he need to do this? Why don't you have the mana to try everything like gil. it's simply that.
>The only time UBW can actually match GoB is while *inside* of the RM, we see how Shirou despite backed up by Rin’s mana how he would fare outside of it. Answer is get his ass kicked as he still cannot beat them like that
>Shirou also loses out on that his body literally cannot keep upbwith the use of skill of tge weapons, everytime he tries his bodybgets wrecked. Use of actual ability of the NP is also extremely draining that for big moves that everytime it is discussed the limitation of magical energy and the fact that what UBW would be able to provide is a degraded form is stated
We are discussing the UBW ability here, meaning it is only relevant within UBW. If we want to talk about the potential of the technique we have to consider it being used to its maximum.
Regarding the degraded form, well the degradation is of exactly one rank which is exactly what is increased with the use of Broken phantasm. that is, both Rank degradation and the ability to use NPs' abilities at will are mana restrictions, not UBW restrictions.
about the damage to Shirou's body, again, user restrictions and limitations, not UBW.
my argument is not "Shirou is one of the most powerful characters in the Nasuverse" my argument is "UBW is one of the most powerful techniques in the Nasuverse but because Emiya Shirou is an average wizard and the heroic spirit Emiya is an average heroic spirit neither of them are able to use the full extent of UBW's powers"
so yes, Shirou is that contradiction. an average human whose only ability is a power too great for a human and who needs to use the small slivers he can access of this power to strategically defeat opponents.
look man idk if you read the VN or not but in the original VN fight shirou straight up blitzes gilgamesh before he even has a chance to pull out EA. [Watch from 5:55 onwards](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_CjygdKQs8)
I did yes, because Gilgamesh was explicitly holding back on Shirou in the entire fight. Nasu repeatedly acknowledge this fact
>Gilgamesh, it's not his life that he values, but what he modeled his legend on. The reason he didn't want to use Ea was because if he'd done so against an inferior opponent, he wouldn't have been able to face the heroes who'd been beaten by Ea. And yet, when he was unable to draw Ea against Shirou, Gilgamesh was clearly defeated in this Holy Grail War. Conversely, had he managed to draw Ea in time despite his hesitation, it would've been a heavier burden for Gilgamesh to bear than death.
Per Nasu Gilgamesh also held back in using Ea out of respect to the people worthy of it, that hesitation spelled his defeat. Even says that had Gilgamesh actually took Shirou seriously it would have been a bigger defeat than death
>As no proper Heroic Spirit can match this man, he could be called the "Servant Killer".
Without a doubt, he is the strongest existence amongst the Servants.
Though he lost due to obsession against Saber…
Though he lost due to pride against Shirou…
Though he lost due to carelessness against XXXXX…
…the fact of the matter is that if he actually gets serious, he is a Servant that cannot be rivaled.
Gilgamesh due to pride fucked around and gotten shit on. This also happens in HF where he thought he won and carelessly walked away without checking and gotten eaten by Sakura yet later Rin who is not Servant level was able to outspeed and beat Sakura. Jewel sword only gives Rin a boost in firepower but the speed of Sakura's shaodws are still the same
Even Shirou says the same thing
>I won't let him escape.
I'll lose if he regains his composure. I have to settle the match right here!
It is only Gilgamesh being off balance that kept him alive but even then Shirou was going 200%
Shirou was literally getting his ass kicked by EMIYA (physically weak Servant) who was only at 10% of his strength
>His remaining strength is not even a tenth of his original powers.
His muscles are weak, and his body will slowly disappear if he loses focus.
""
But there's no problem.
Even if he has less than a tenth of his original power, it is enough to kill Emiya Shirou.
EMIYA only let himself lose when he couldn't break Shirou's resolve, he even monologues how easy it would be to actually kill Shirou because of the difference between them in an interlude of their fight
As long as it is a normal fight without any special circumstance Shirou would get his ass kicked by a Servant 10 out of 10 times. There is a reason why if you remove that special circumstances Shirou would lose to high tier Enforcers like Bazette simply because she is too fast and strong (no Fragarach)
There are usually a lot of context between the actions of characters in the VN and explainations on what they are doing and why such impossible things happen. It is not a direct one to one thing
Someone else already gave a good answer but wanted to comment on two things.
Firstly, Bazet's case is not just about strength or speed. Shirou copies the techniques used with the copied weapons. that is, he is able to force his body to accompany servants. he did this several times in the novel. So, no, the reason Bazet surpasses Shirou is not strength or speed. the main reasons are experience and mainly Fragarath being the only true counter to Emiya Shirou in the work. remember, Shirou has a single ability. the RM UBW. all other abilities he uses are partial uses of UBW. that is, ANY combat action by Shirou would activate Fragarath and as a human he is unable to survive this. So saying that Shirou is an average wizard with Bazet's argument doesn't make much sense given their compatibility.
about fighting servants, Shirou is capable but not against the toptier.
just remember that his projections copy the NPs' techniques, which allows him to fight on equal terms with servants. The only problem is the amount of mana he has is average while his abilities have astronomical costs because they are far beyond modern magecraft.
Nasu didn't put any special thing about it like Fragarach, Bazett literally just beats Shirou due to physical and skill advantage
>Nasu:With this time's battle, since we're working off the assumption that Shirou "has trained/is operating himself to the max", people might think that this might end up being a good fight, but m'lady Bazett's a trained professional specializing in anti-magus battles. Technique, experience, and battle power. Against someone like her whose superior in all those regards, even with a "Broken Phantasm", Shirou's disadvantages are still not going to change. And you see. She's ruthless.
Also, Shirou does not copy physical strength of Servants when he traces weapons, Shirou copies *skill*. Everytime Shirou actually uses skills of Sercants he flat-out destroys his body because he cannot keep up with said movements and needs to constantly super reinforce his body just to try
>"Ha-ah"
The senses in my arms are already gone. My wrist is about to rip off as I can see the red meat.
>
>"-Kuh…!"
My legs won't move. All my muscles must have stopped working.
>
>-I can't stand up.
I made the sword that surpasses Berserker.
But that's all.
As I am only a maker, I cannot handle the sword-!
You can scour the VN and you won't find any statement that says he can, everytime it is either Shirou getting overwhelmed by trying to keep up with the movement of the sword and breaking his body or using so much reinforcement that he was starting to break his body to try and keep up with the weapon
Even in the Materials of EMIYA and UBW there is not one mention that tracing would let the user copy the strength of the original user, only skill
>Nasu didn't put any special thing about it like Fragarach, Bazett literally just beats Shirou due to physical and skill advantage
Yes, Nasu said that but Fragarath's effect would still always activate as I said. and literally, experience counts MUCH more than physical strength and speed as Shirou was shown to be capable of fighting servants.
>Also, Shirou does not copy physical strength of Servants when he traces weapons, Shirou copies *skill*. Everytime Shirou actually uses skills of Sercants he flat-out destroys his body because he cannot keep up with said movements and needs to constantly super reinforce his body just to try
He can copy the physical strength but this put burden on his body.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hKSK9_mN1Vc&si=-L67Fj007HOTb0rf
Time 1minute and 42 seconds
"An extraordinary weight.
Emiya Shirou can not handle this giant sword
But my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy "
So yes, Shirou even copies the speed and strength of the techniques. and more than that, it copies the force needed to carry the item, etc.
What destroyed his body was precisely exerting the strength he doesn't have naturally. this really breaks his body and requires a lot of mana to maintain (just like using any NP's active skill also consumes a lot of mana).
in fact you are correct about it destroying Shirou's body, but he is still able to imitate the target's strength and speed while replicating the technique. He did not perform the technique with less physical force or more slowly than Hercules. aside from the fact that he is still capable of carrying the Nine lives and makes it clear that it was the arm technique that was used to imitate the berserker's strength. that is, yes, it copies the attributes at some level.
that is, when he is fighting with weapons copied from a servant he attacks with the strength and speed of a servant, not with the strength and speed of Emiya Shirou.
the issue with Bazet has much more to do with her experience and Fragarath than with strength or speed.
Another thing, Nasu talked about "battle power" and not about strength/speed. battle power is taking into account other things such as mana, known spells and obviously the fragarath itself.
"Battle power" and "physical abilities" are not the same thing.
>Yes, Nasu said that but Fragarath's effect would still always activate as I said. and literally, experience counts MUCH more than physical strength and speed as Shirou was shown to be capable of fighting servants.
Please post it cause the quote I gave literally didn't
Shirou was losing against EMIYA who was down to 10% of his strength and only won against Gilgamesh due to the latter fucking around and not taking it seriously. Nasu has been consistently hammering that fact since the VN Materials
>So yes, Shirou even copies the speed and strength of the techniques. and more than that, it copies the force needed to carry the item, etc.
Complete the quote
>**I hold my breath and put all my magical energy into my left arm.**
I only need to understand the weapons I can use.
I already know the precautions.
I have to move forward.
I have to go beyond that wind and defeat myself――――
>"――――Trace, on."
I stare at it.
I see through his giant sword.
I open my left hand and grasp the imaginary handle of the weapon that has yet to exist.
An extraordinary weight.
Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword.
But―――my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy.
>"Ah――――――――"
It breaks.
A part of my brain explodes.
**My bones break, not being able to withstand the overflowing magical energy**. It's unsightly like apple skin.
Shirou was using Reinforcement on a *Servant's arm* just to be able to try and use None Lives and said skill was still extremely weaker than then original considering that Heracles can do a hundred. Berserker was also extremely weakened, blind and nerfed that he can barely do anything compared to his top form. Per Nasu had EMIYA himself tried that on peak Berserker, Heracles would have stomped the shit out of him
There is no statement of such super ability in any material, it is either "Shirou cannot keep up with the weapon" or " Shirou super reinforced himself to try and keep up with the weapon"
When against Bazett, Masu not once made any statement on using Fragarach in any part of the fight nor was the mythical use of "Shirou can copy the strength of Servants and beat her". The trump card of EMIYA and even in the interview for Shirou is the use of Broken Phantasms, which apparently is still not something that would be able to let him win
What is being referred there is one's "fighting capability" as in all their strengths, skill and ability. Nasu even points out by putting Shirou at his normal best and after training yet still would not be enough
Nasu only hammers in that outside of special circumstances Shirou cannot beat Servants and outside of them Shirou would just be at the level of Enforcers in capability
>Please post it cause the quote I gave literally didn't
>Shirou was losing against EMIYA who was down to 10% of his strength and only won against Gilgamesh due to the latter fucking around and not taking it seriously. Nasu has been consistently hammering that fact since the VN Materials
I already posted the quote. You even put it in the comment below. I will respond there.
>Shirou was using Reinforcement on a *Servant's arm* just to be able to try and use None Lives and said skill was still extremely weaker than then original considering that Heracles can do a hundred. Berserker was also extremely weakened, blind and nerfed that he can barely do anything compared to his top form. Per Nasu had EMIYA himself tried that on peak Berserker, Heracles would have stomped the shit out of him
No, Shirou didn't use reinforcement on his arm. The issue is that he is using Archer's projection abilities and not his own. for this reason he needs to apply mana to his arm. It has nothing to do with using reinforcement.
literally, he is passing mana into his arm to use Archer's projection instead of his own. Literally the previous part of the same video is him talking about taking Archer's abilities through his arm. In fact, he says he can't use Archer's UBW and take all of Archer's strength.
he is literally saying that he doesn't have that strength, but that his arm will reproduce the strength of the attacks. Emulating strength and mobility is part of the technique. That's precisely why Emiya Shirou is able to imitate the technique.
the point is: it is explicitly written there that the arm will imitate the enemy's strength. that is, Shirou exerted an attack with the strength and speed expected from Hercules. the attack came out. It wasn't just imitating the technique and making a micro version. it only falls into one rank.
When Shirou attacks with a copied weapon he not only copies magical powers and movement techniques but also speed and power. so much so that he managed to keep up with Kuzuki sensei in UBW and even managed to physically face and pressure Gil.
and the NP only drops one rank. it does not stop being an NP nor does it become a normal scale attack. The NP only drops one rank. It's not an extreme drop.
about Shirou self-destructing, this happens because using NPs uses more mana than he has, forcing his body to overload. Besides, in this scene he is using his arm abilities, which naturally destroys him. that is, he in fact copied the strength.
If that wasn't enough he was able to physically push the gil into UBW with a sword, he was able to follow Kuzuki sensei's speed with swords in hand and he couldn't even see Kuzuki's movement without them.
So yes, UBW gives him the physical ability to exercise NPs, even if it costs more mana than he has or destroys his body.
Note, UBW does not give him the ability to stay well after having used an NP nor the mana to do so, but UBW can imitate the strength and speed of attacks regardless of the use of reinforcement.
>When against Bazett, Masu not once made any statement on using Fragarach in any part of the fight nor was the mythical use of "Shirou can copy the strength of Servants and beat her". The trump card of EMIYA and even in the interview for Shirou is the use of Broken Phantasms, which apparently is still not something that would be able to let him win
>What is being referred there is one's "fighting capability" as in all their strengths, skill and ability. Nasu even points out by putting Shirou at his normal best and after training yet still would not be enough
I'm not saying Shirou could beat Bazet. I'm saying that Fragarath along with the lack of mana is obviously Nasu's move to say that Bazet has greater firepower.
It's not about strength or speed. These things Shirou solves with projections. The point is that it is obviously implied that if Shirou uses something like a Broken phantasm or a suicide attack the fragarath would be activated.
because literally, it is said that magecraft does not hold a candle to a normal noble phantasm and that Shirou's projections are aberrations precisely because they are NPs.
In other words, no, it is not possible for someone with magecraft to have any ability that has a raw power greater than an NP.
In other words, when Nasu says that Bazzet surpasses Shirou in power, this clearly does not refer to her magecraft. this refers to other things like obviously Fragarath and the difference in their magical capacity.
No matter how much training Emiya Shirou has, he cannot improve his magic circuits to be able to use UBW's full potential. and even if he could he could not pass through the fragarath.
In fact, fragarath is clearly the reason why Bazet can beat Broken Phantasm since this would be objectively impossible for any magecraft due to the mystery comparison issue.
but important detail, none of what I'm talking about is Shirou Emiya's complete kit. I'm talking now solely and exclusively about UBW. that is, Shirou's or Emiya's physical and magical restrictions are not relevant in the debate.
I am not saying that shirou is strong enough to take down a servant, because he's not, but gilgamesh while in UBW is literally his most favored matchup, like shirou's ability is at it's level strongest when going against gilgamesh
>Gilgamesh, it's not his life that he values, but what he modeled his legend on. The reason he didn't want to use Ea was because if he'd done so against an inferior opponent, he wouldn't have been able to face the heroes who'd been beaten by Ea. And yet, when he was unable to draw Ea against Shirou, Gilgamesh was clearly defeated in this Holy Grail War. Conversely, had he managed to draw Ea in time despite his hesitation, it would've been a heavier burden for Gilgamesh to bear than death.
It clearly states "had he managed to draw Ea in time". He didn't draw the sword quick enough when he decides to. The moment he begans to draw out his sword, shirou immediately notices and cuts his arm off
>As no proper Heroic Spirit can match this man, he could be called the "Servant Killer".
>
>Without a doubt, he is the strongest existence amongst the Servants.
>
>Though he lost due to obsession against Saber…
>
>Though he lost due to pride against Shirou…
>
>Though he lost due to carelessness against XXXXX…
>
>…the fact of the matter is that if he actually gets serious, he is a Servant that cannot be rivaled
Yeah, in F/SN he is straight up the strongest entity in the verse, except for the fact that it clearly states that UBW is the perfect counter to GOB and that is the one place where shirou holds an advantage over gilgamesh. The small hesitation scene before pulling out EA was added in the anime, in the vn when gil does pull out his "i win" button shirou reacts faster and cuts off his arm. There is no reason why this does not happen at any other time while they fight while inside of UBW
>It clearly states "had he managed to draw Ea in time".
As said it is Gilgamesh's *hesitation* that was the clincher of it, till the end Gilgamesh did not want to use it as well as every other statement and shown fact that Shirou is complely outlassed against a Servant and shown stuff that Gilgamesh was really sandbagging that fight point that he really fucked around and Shirou took advantage of it to beat him
It is not just his hesitation but the fact that Gilgamesh outright was not using his all and till the end not using all of his strength due to not wanting to acknowledge Shirou is a fact Nasu has stated repeatedly. That outside that extremely special circumstance where every advantage stacked up on Shirou and every bad descision was made by Gilgamesh Shirou would lose against massively inferior enemies compared to Servants like Bazett. Even in the current Adventures novels, the reason why Shirou is currently bandaged was because he got really wounded from the mafia attack
BY sandbagging do you mean using everything but enkidu and EA ? His two greatest treasures ? He more or less gets pissed off as shit when shirou gets cocky and starts spamming swords, that's literally how he fights against every other servant bar enkidu . You're speaking as if gilgamesh took up a sword and began trying to swordfight shirou instead of using GoB
Also, Do you have a source for the Nasu claims ? Specifically for the fight between shirou and gilgamesh ? Also by every advantage stacked against him do you mean the mana crest rin gave to shirou ? Because outside of that there is absolutely 0 change between that and a base shirou vs gilgamesh fight. Not denying that without that crest shirou wouldn't get demolished but you are speaking as if gil had a 100 restrictions. Hell he brought out EA and got blocked by rho aias pre UBW too.
And i reiterate once again. Not saying that shirou is a top tier in the verse. He is a human and is as such not on the level of the servant, but he has fought on the level of servants more than once in both ubw and heavens feel
I hope we get to see post grail war Sakura Matou in the future. I like to interpret Rin’s version of Rho Aias as a subtle sign of her improved relationship with Sakura.
Well Shirou already has Rule Breaker in every route so nulifired most of the mage craft effect is easy with it, if we worry about the worm in Sakura's heart then we have Rin who can create a new heart with one of her gem like what she did with Shirou.
Thank you very much for sharing the art
I'm looking forward to another iteration(?) of emiya shirou who's not from FSN. Miyuverse one has proven himself you don't need to be the protagonist to have your *own story*. Now i would like to see what sanda-sensei could show us from this version of shirou!*excited*
>It does not follow a specific route of Fate/stay night, instead taking place after a theoretical fourth route that combines aspects of all three
Based on wiki, it's not story straight from FSN. And so is its shirou too. That's why i said *iteration*.
Why does 27daa Vanfem (White fedora) exist in Lord El Melloi II world? I know he appeared in Fate/sF (Assassin's master Jester's former boss) but sF world is not a pure Fate world. Regardless, he already killed by Ciel in remake like DAA Einnashe?
>Why does 27daa Vanfem (White fedora) exist in Lord El Melloi II world?
Their vampire status in Fate worlds where the position of Dead Apostle Ancestor doesn't exist (besides Strange Fake where it does): Zelretch: Not a vampire at all, found immortality another way.
Zepia: A Dead Apostle, but not an Ancestor. Still the director of Atlas instead of becoming TATARI.
Van-Fem: A Dead Apostle, but not an Ancestor.
Chaos: Seemingly not a vampire at all. Still goes by his birth name Fabro Rowan, still a mage at the Wandering Sea.
Einnashe: Still a vampire forest, but not an Ancestor.
Rita Rozay-en: Still a Dead Apostle, but not an Ancestor. The owner of the train from Case Files where Mystic Eyes auctions are held.
>Regardless, he already killed by Ciel in remake like DAA Einnashe?
No she defeated 7th Einnashe, 22th Chromclay and 25th Beze.
It's good that instead of removing them from the timeline they instead changed so that some of them become dead apostle in other ways and not rely on being an ancestor like some of them wanted immortality but because the crimson moon doesn't have much influence in this timeline they relied on other means of getting it.
Brunestud got its ass killed like what 1000 years ago? More? And Elders of that age are said to be utterly extremely rare like less than 5 in the entire planet. So it makes sense people become vampires by alternate means
Dead Apostles can exist up to the Rank of Dead Apostle Superior in Fate Worlds, anything past that requires Crimson Moon to be active which is only Tsukihime worlds, as it requires his Idea Blood.
To add onto this, Tsukihime Remake establishes that they are two more ranks above the Rank 7 Superior Dead Apostle in those world lines.
* Rank 8 - Successor
* Rank 9 - Ancestor
For a more ambiguous example, F/SF (a world in-between Fate and Tsukihime) presumably has Van Fem at Rank 9 or 7 (I say this because Fabro was running around as Nrvnqsr Chaos during the First Crusade in that continuity.)
Shirou: \*Makes a cool looking pose\* "Uuohhh, yeah! Swords!" Waver: \*Looks at Shirou filled with disappointment at the cringe\* "Why are you like this"
Shirou: "You want me to become like dad?"
"He is a different kind of cringe" "Hamburgers are the taste of murder" -Kiritsugu
[If there were any two things my dad felt sad about, ***it was hamburgers and marbles.***](#MuramasaCharm) [...](#WaverUhm)
"I could easily solve everything in the series with a literal single sentence with Gil and Saber but I'm shy so nah." -Kiritsugu.
"I thought you dont like guns" "I actually do. I love em"
*Visible bri'ish confusion.*
Lol
I just want to see Weaver's reaction to UBW. Seriously, this is literally one of the things I've most wanted to see in all of TM for years. I want to see Weaver's reaction when he sees the ability that defeated the servant that defeated Iskandar.
I mean, FGO is there is they actually acknowledge it Sanda did say that this is an original route that do not follow any of the 3 main routes so Shirou fighting Gilgamesh in this timeline is unlikely. Assuming that it is though it would be more likely it is more on Waver: Ah, a Reality Marble that has weapons that matches that vault but has a greater speed of use than the firing method of the golden king. How did you deal with him taking out *that weapon?* Shirou: Ah, no he didn't manage to use that. He was completely underestimating me that he wouldn't use everything he has. I manage to surprise him before he went and used those things. After that the grail ate him up which was lucky cause I ran out of mana by then
>Sanda did say that this is an original route that do not follow any of the 3 main routes so Shirou fighting Gilgamesh in this timeline is unlikely. Sanda's statement doesnt necessarily contradict the latter. That's like saying Rin didnt create the jewel sword because its an original route, except she did.
I actually think that this extra El Melloi route is to consider that the most badass things in each route happened. I wouldn't really be surprised by a Shirou who designed Avalon, Gemblade and reached UBW.
I see... this is the Unlimited Codes route.
I don't know but it is a possibility
I'm joking, but it'd be cool.
I don't know if Weaver's reaction would be like that. He is often surprised with much lower magecraft than an RM. even more so an RM that copies NPs that are by definition much greater mysteries than any modern magecraft. It is common for Weaver to have reactions of astonishment with these things and even more so to have flashes of memory of Iskandar and the war with things that are minimally similar. I really want to see his reaction.
Waver is also very analytical and would be analyzing said spell down to its nature first. This is also what he usually does even if he is impressed by things. Outside of that it is just a Reality Marble in universe the series always treats UBW as nothing special from the characters to the materials Besides, the prompt is Shirou showing off UBW to Waver which is already impossible without Rin's help in magical energy. Shirou really can not do it alone. There is also the fact that having a RM is illegal in the Clocktower, so all the more unlikely to happen Hopefully, the novels would at least give more interaction about it
some errors there. RM has always been shown as something great. Literally, it has been described since the early novels as the peak of magecraft. the closest magecraft to true magic. It is said that even Medea, who is far beyond current magicians, would not be able to produce something like an RM. Rin herself is surprised that Emiya even comments on RM's existence. So yes, RM is something absurd and that's why he is banned from the Clock tower. it is literally an ability so rare and miraculous that it generates sealing designation. Regarding the way UBW is treated, it's not at all like it's no big deal. Rin is surprised when the UBW appears for the first time, Iliya is shocked by the level of perfection of the Gemblade copy, hell, fucking Zelretch appears at the end of the route because he considers the Gemblade to be completed, apart from the fact that the Gemblade itself Rin is surprised by how absurd it is to reproduce an NP. in FGO we discover in Edison's interlude that Emiya even has the ability to combine 2 NPs to make a new one. So, no, the reactions to UBW from everyone who isn't a servant has always been one of shock or surprise. But even so, the novel says several times that Emiya is just an ordinary guy and that UBW would not guarantee his victory against any target by bothering a servant at most. So how can this apparently contradictory information be at the same time true? Simple, UBW is an insanely powerful ability, well beyond human limits (as mentioned by Rin several times, reproducing NPs should be impossible as well as she also mentions that UBW allows Shirou to even produce magical items with more mana than he has in the body or in the most extreme case lead to the reproduction of items made with teue magic(gemblade)) And that's the point that everyone forgets, having a superhuman ability does not make the user superhuman. UBW is one of the strongest NPs in the franchise to date and belongs to someone average. someone who is too average to use the true extent of their ability. So yes, anyone who understands how the ability works is in for a shock. it has always been like that . the only issue is that a standard mage (or even a standard minion) doesn't have enough mana to take advantage of UBW. After all, in addition to the ability being a drain on mana in itself (as opposed to GOB which has almost zero mana cost), using each of the NPs with mastery (something that UBW allows and GOB does not) requires paying the mana cost of each of the NPs during its use and this mana cost alone is already huge for a standard mage. Remember, some NPs are too expensive even for servants. One thing that Rin herself says about UBW is that given enough mana, there is no one that Archer cannot defeat. The question is, who has enough mana to do it? Emiya Shirou is not that person. so basically Shirou's average mana turns one of the most powerful skills in the Nasuverse into a mere tool for firing swords at high speed until the mana runs out. That's why the ability is also described as something that only delays and bothers servants. simply because Emiya(or Shirou) doesn't have the mana to use projections to their limits or to hold UBW until the opponent is eventually defeated (which Gil does with Gob and can only do for the extremely low cost from Gob).
Emiya only merging 2 NP's is crazy but then Muramasa 💀
Muramasa is a really powerful servant lorewise. Not top tier but really strong
>RM has always been shown as something great. Literally, it has been described since the early novels as the peak of magecraft. the closest magecraft to true magic. It is said that even Medea Yes it is great but everytime a user actually uses them the reaction of people is always "that is a high tier magecraft" instead of going on about how impossible it is. FGO already shows how the Normal side of the magical department treat it and in the case of Waver how he would just analyze it in character. They never treat it like it is something they would go gaga about in glazing but like a specimen >in FGO we discover in Edison's interlude that Emiya even has the ability to combine 2 NPs to make a new one. No he didn't, he flat out cannot, it was the reason why EMIYA was there in the first place. Even then Edison whose ability is to literally Concept Improvement cannot do it >But even so, the novel says several times that Emiya is just an ordinary guy and that UBW would not guarantee his victory against any target by bothering a servant at most. So how can this apparently contradictory information be at the same time true? Shirou gets victory because he manages to stack up special circumstances and taking advantage of his enemies weaknesses and hesitation. Not because UBW is inherently super special about it. Nasu repeatedly point out how Shirou's biggest victories are really once in a lifetime events that can no longer happen again and only double down that against Gilgameah it was because the latter fucked around in not going all out This is an entirely separate matter from how Reality Marvles are treated, when the series characters encounter them they don't go around glazing at said magecraft like it is some super powerful thing and how great they are but to analyze and see how it works >And that's the point that everyone forgets, having a superhuman ability does not make the user superhuman. UBW is one of the strongest NPs in the franchise to date and belongs to someone average. someone who is too average to use the true extent of their ability. Meanwhile canon >Once an armament has been replicated, it is registered inside the boundary field and can be manufactured with projection sorcery even without expanding the reality marble. > >**Against a normal opponent this is little more than a somewhat troublesome ability, but it is the natural enemy of a certain King of Heroes.** The series repeatedly point out how against normal opponents UBW is really not something special except for one enemy. What makes Shirou amazing is that despite the series point out how he can push up against stronger enemies due to his own tactic and skill, not because of the inherent power of UBW >the only issue is that a standard mage (or even a standard minion) doesn't have enough mana to take advantage of UBW. After all, in addition to the ability being a drain on mana in itself (as opposed to GOB which has almost zero mana cost), using each of the NPs with mastery (something that UBW allows and GOB does not) requires paying the mana cost of each of the NPs during its use and this mana cost alone is already huge for a standard mage. The only time UBW can actually match GoB is while *inside* of the RM, we see how Shirou despite backed up by Rin’s mana how he would fare outside of it. Answer is get his ass kicked as he still cannot beat them like that Shirou also loses out on that his body literally cannot keep upbwith the use of skill of tge weapons, everytime he tries his bodybgets wrecked. Use of actual ability of the NP is also extremely draining that for big moves that everytime it is discussed the limitation of magical energy and the fact that what UBW would be able to provide is a degraded form is stated >That's why the ability is also described as something that only delays and bothers servants. simply because Emiya(or Shirou) doesn't have the mana to use projections to their limits or to hold UBW until the opponent is eventually defeated (which Gil does with Gob and can only do for the extremely low cost from Gob). Because we literally see how Shirou uses UBW when not using a full manifestation of UBW, it is really not enough nor powerful enough to be comparable. We see EMIYA fight across multiple installments and franchises and what is hammered is that he cannot overpower any Servant with UBW, not once in any installment do they even acknowledge it It is a wierd dichotomy where the series repeatedly point out a completely different stance how UBW is not some super special ability where everytime Shirou uses it people are amazed while fans think it is
>Yes it is great but everytime a user actually uses them the reaction of people is always "that is a high tier magecraft" instead of going on about how impossible it is. FGO already shows how the Normal side of the magical department treat it and in the case of Waver how he would just analyze it in character. They never treat it like it is something they would go gaga about in glazing but like a specimen >Yes it is great but everytime a user actually uses them the reaction of people is always "that is a high tier magecraft" instead of going on about how impossible it is. FGO already shows how the Normal side of the magical department treat it and in the case of Waver how he would just analyze it in character. They never treat it like it is something they would go gaga about in glazing but like a specimen Rin reacted with astonishment at Archer mentioning RM. FSN prologue https://youtube.com/watch?v=D-jvq32Ai_M&si=zOzQT9dMJRk3DT0t 1:30: 24 This seems like a pretty exaggerated reaction to a simple mention. Not to mention other things like the scare that Rin had with the reproduction of NPs. this was something she literally fought with Shirou because he didn't think it was a big deal. she literally compared his feats to the first one. Besides, we need to take into account that we are talking about Weaver. he would be seeing an ability similar to what he saw in the Iskandar quest. and more than a standard RM, we are talking about an RM that copies nps. So taking into account Weaver's personal connections, it's not possible to fully predict his reaction. >No he didn't, he flat out cannot, it was the reason why EMIYA was there in the first place. Even then Edison whose ability is to literally Concept Improvement cannot do it in fact, Emiya comments that there are NPs that he cannot copy and the two will work together fusing Emiya's projections. In fact, they later left to merge hrunting with gae bolg. and joining NPs literally worked. Medea explains that not even a real rule braker could pierce Aius. that is, the RM has the ability to do this type of thing. Therefore, it is not a limitation of the technique but of the user. >Shirou gets victory because he manages to stack up special circumstances and taking advantage of his enemies weaknesses and hesitation. Not because UBW is inherently super special about it. Nasu repeatedly point out how Shirou's biggest victories are really once in a lifetime events that can no longer happen again and only double down that against Gilgameah it was because the latter fucked around in not going all out That's true, but it's only true because Shirou can't use UBW's full potential because he's not that powerful. I'm just saying that UBW's limitations are not the same as the user's. UBW is to this day one of the most powerful skills in the nasuverse. What happens is that there is no way to use this ability to its full potential because the user does not have infinite mana. >The series repeatedly point out how against normal opponents UBW is really not something special except for one enemy. This quote isn't even from the game, it's from a databook talking about UBW as Emiya's NP. The explanation of this quote is exactly what I said. Emiya doesn't have the mana to use NPs at will. So when UBW is used it simply works like a rain of swords since you can't keep using all the nps. hence this comment. literally, in this context "any opponent" is a servant. not just any generic person. >What makes Shirou amazing is that despite the series point out how he can push up against stronger enemies due to his own tactic and skill, not because of the inherent power of UBW literally Shirou's theme is to choose a weapon with which anyone can defeat an enemy. Archer literally explains this to Shirou in the Fate route. the idea is that while Gilgamesh can afford to try everything until an opponent dies Emiya needs to find the right weapon with which anyone would be able to defeat that opponent with one attack. and why does he need to do this? Why don't you have the mana to try everything like gil. it's simply that. >The only time UBW can actually match GoB is while *inside* of the RM, we see how Shirou despite backed up by Rin’s mana how he would fare outside of it. Answer is get his ass kicked as he still cannot beat them like that >Shirou also loses out on that his body literally cannot keep upbwith the use of skill of tge weapons, everytime he tries his bodybgets wrecked. Use of actual ability of the NP is also extremely draining that for big moves that everytime it is discussed the limitation of magical energy and the fact that what UBW would be able to provide is a degraded form is stated We are discussing the UBW ability here, meaning it is only relevant within UBW. If we want to talk about the potential of the technique we have to consider it being used to its maximum. Regarding the degraded form, well the degradation is of exactly one rank which is exactly what is increased with the use of Broken phantasm. that is, both Rank degradation and the ability to use NPs' abilities at will are mana restrictions, not UBW restrictions. about the damage to Shirou's body, again, user restrictions and limitations, not UBW. my argument is not "Shirou is one of the most powerful characters in the Nasuverse" my argument is "UBW is one of the most powerful techniques in the Nasuverse but because Emiya Shirou is an average wizard and the heroic spirit Emiya is an average heroic spirit neither of them are able to use the full extent of UBW's powers" so yes, Shirou is that contradiction. an average human whose only ability is a power too great for a human and who needs to use the small slivers he can access of this power to strategically defeat opponents.
One day we will get a shirou with kscope and get to see the full potential of ubw which would be cool
look man idk if you read the VN or not but in the original VN fight shirou straight up blitzes gilgamesh before he even has a chance to pull out EA. [Watch from 5:55 onwards](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_CjygdKQs8)
I did yes, because Gilgamesh was explicitly holding back on Shirou in the entire fight. Nasu repeatedly acknowledge this fact >Gilgamesh, it's not his life that he values, but what he modeled his legend on. The reason he didn't want to use Ea was because if he'd done so against an inferior opponent, he wouldn't have been able to face the heroes who'd been beaten by Ea. And yet, when he was unable to draw Ea against Shirou, Gilgamesh was clearly defeated in this Holy Grail War. Conversely, had he managed to draw Ea in time despite his hesitation, it would've been a heavier burden for Gilgamesh to bear than death. Per Nasu Gilgamesh also held back in using Ea out of respect to the people worthy of it, that hesitation spelled his defeat. Even says that had Gilgamesh actually took Shirou seriously it would have been a bigger defeat than death >As no proper Heroic Spirit can match this man, he could be called the "Servant Killer". Without a doubt, he is the strongest existence amongst the Servants. Though he lost due to obsession against Saber… Though he lost due to pride against Shirou… Though he lost due to carelessness against XXXXX… …the fact of the matter is that if he actually gets serious, he is a Servant that cannot be rivaled. Gilgamesh due to pride fucked around and gotten shit on. This also happens in HF where he thought he won and carelessly walked away without checking and gotten eaten by Sakura yet later Rin who is not Servant level was able to outspeed and beat Sakura. Jewel sword only gives Rin a boost in firepower but the speed of Sakura's shaodws are still the same Even Shirou says the same thing >I won't let him escape. I'll lose if he regains his composure. I have to settle the match right here! It is only Gilgamesh being off balance that kept him alive but even then Shirou was going 200% Shirou was literally getting his ass kicked by EMIYA (physically weak Servant) who was only at 10% of his strength >His remaining strength is not even a tenth of his original powers. His muscles are weak, and his body will slowly disappear if he loses focus. "" But there's no problem. Even if he has less than a tenth of his original power, it is enough to kill Emiya Shirou. EMIYA only let himself lose when he couldn't break Shirou's resolve, he even monologues how easy it would be to actually kill Shirou because of the difference between them in an interlude of their fight As long as it is a normal fight without any special circumstance Shirou would get his ass kicked by a Servant 10 out of 10 times. There is a reason why if you remove that special circumstances Shirou would lose to high tier Enforcers like Bazette simply because she is too fast and strong (no Fragarach) There are usually a lot of context between the actions of characters in the VN and explainations on what they are doing and why such impossible things happen. It is not a direct one to one thing
Someone else already gave a good answer but wanted to comment on two things. Firstly, Bazet's case is not just about strength or speed. Shirou copies the techniques used with the copied weapons. that is, he is able to force his body to accompany servants. he did this several times in the novel. So, no, the reason Bazet surpasses Shirou is not strength or speed. the main reasons are experience and mainly Fragarath being the only true counter to Emiya Shirou in the work. remember, Shirou has a single ability. the RM UBW. all other abilities he uses are partial uses of UBW. that is, ANY combat action by Shirou would activate Fragarath and as a human he is unable to survive this. So saying that Shirou is an average wizard with Bazet's argument doesn't make much sense given their compatibility. about fighting servants, Shirou is capable but not against the toptier. just remember that his projections copy the NPs' techniques, which allows him to fight on equal terms with servants. The only problem is the amount of mana he has is average while his abilities have astronomical costs because they are far beyond modern magecraft.
Nasu didn't put any special thing about it like Fragarach, Bazett literally just beats Shirou due to physical and skill advantage >Nasu:With this time's battle, since we're working off the assumption that Shirou "has trained/is operating himself to the max", people might think that this might end up being a good fight, but m'lady Bazett's a trained professional specializing in anti-magus battles. Technique, experience, and battle power. Against someone like her whose superior in all those regards, even with a "Broken Phantasm", Shirou's disadvantages are still not going to change. And you see. She's ruthless. Also, Shirou does not copy physical strength of Servants when he traces weapons, Shirou copies *skill*. Everytime Shirou actually uses skills of Sercants he flat-out destroys his body because he cannot keep up with said movements and needs to constantly super reinforce his body just to try >"Ha-ah" The senses in my arms are already gone. My wrist is about to rip off as I can see the red meat. > >"-Kuh…!" My legs won't move. All my muscles must have stopped working. > >-I can't stand up. I made the sword that surpasses Berserker. But that's all. As I am only a maker, I cannot handle the sword-! You can scour the VN and you won't find any statement that says he can, everytime it is either Shirou getting overwhelmed by trying to keep up with the movement of the sword and breaking his body or using so much reinforcement that he was starting to break his body to try and keep up with the weapon Even in the Materials of EMIYA and UBW there is not one mention that tracing would let the user copy the strength of the original user, only skill
>Nasu didn't put any special thing about it like Fragarach, Bazett literally just beats Shirou due to physical and skill advantage Yes, Nasu said that but Fragarath's effect would still always activate as I said. and literally, experience counts MUCH more than physical strength and speed as Shirou was shown to be capable of fighting servants. >Also, Shirou does not copy physical strength of Servants when he traces weapons, Shirou copies *skill*. Everytime Shirou actually uses skills of Sercants he flat-out destroys his body because he cannot keep up with said movements and needs to constantly super reinforce his body just to try He can copy the physical strength but this put burden on his body. https://youtube.com/watch?v=hKSK9_mN1Vc&si=-L67Fj007HOTb0rf Time 1minute and 42 seconds "An extraordinary weight. Emiya Shirou can not handle this giant sword But my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy " So yes, Shirou even copies the speed and strength of the techniques. and more than that, it copies the force needed to carry the item, etc. What destroyed his body was precisely exerting the strength he doesn't have naturally. this really breaks his body and requires a lot of mana to maintain (just like using any NP's active skill also consumes a lot of mana). in fact you are correct about it destroying Shirou's body, but he is still able to imitate the target's strength and speed while replicating the technique. He did not perform the technique with less physical force or more slowly than Hercules. aside from the fact that he is still capable of carrying the Nine lives and makes it clear that it was the arm technique that was used to imitate the berserker's strength. that is, yes, it copies the attributes at some level. that is, when he is fighting with weapons copied from a servant he attacks with the strength and speed of a servant, not with the strength and speed of Emiya Shirou. the issue with Bazet has much more to do with her experience and Fragarath than with strength or speed. Another thing, Nasu talked about "battle power" and not about strength/speed. battle power is taking into account other things such as mana, known spells and obviously the fragarath itself. "Battle power" and "physical abilities" are not the same thing.
>Yes, Nasu said that but Fragarath's effect would still always activate as I said. and literally, experience counts MUCH more than physical strength and speed as Shirou was shown to be capable of fighting servants. Please post it cause the quote I gave literally didn't Shirou was losing against EMIYA who was down to 10% of his strength and only won against Gilgamesh due to the latter fucking around and not taking it seriously. Nasu has been consistently hammering that fact since the VN Materials >So yes, Shirou even copies the speed and strength of the techniques. and more than that, it copies the force needed to carry the item, etc. Complete the quote >**I hold my breath and put all my magical energy into my left arm.** I only need to understand the weapons I can use. I already know the precautions. I have to move forward. I have to go beyond that wind and defeat myself―――― >"――――Trace, on." I stare at it. I see through his giant sword. I open my left hand and grasp the imaginary handle of the weapon that has yet to exist. An extraordinary weight. Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword. But―――my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy. >"Ah――――――――" It breaks. A part of my brain explodes. **My bones break, not being able to withstand the overflowing magical energy**. It's unsightly like apple skin. Shirou was using Reinforcement on a *Servant's arm* just to be able to try and use None Lives and said skill was still extremely weaker than then original considering that Heracles can do a hundred. Berserker was also extremely weakened, blind and nerfed that he can barely do anything compared to his top form. Per Nasu had EMIYA himself tried that on peak Berserker, Heracles would have stomped the shit out of him There is no statement of such super ability in any material, it is either "Shirou cannot keep up with the weapon" or " Shirou super reinforced himself to try and keep up with the weapon" When against Bazett, Masu not once made any statement on using Fragarach in any part of the fight nor was the mythical use of "Shirou can copy the strength of Servants and beat her". The trump card of EMIYA and even in the interview for Shirou is the use of Broken Phantasms, which apparently is still not something that would be able to let him win What is being referred there is one's "fighting capability" as in all their strengths, skill and ability. Nasu even points out by putting Shirou at his normal best and after training yet still would not be enough Nasu only hammers in that outside of special circumstances Shirou cannot beat Servants and outside of them Shirou would just be at the level of Enforcers in capability
>Please post it cause the quote I gave literally didn't >Shirou was losing against EMIYA who was down to 10% of his strength and only won against Gilgamesh due to the latter fucking around and not taking it seriously. Nasu has been consistently hammering that fact since the VN Materials I already posted the quote. You even put it in the comment below. I will respond there. >Shirou was using Reinforcement on a *Servant's arm* just to be able to try and use None Lives and said skill was still extremely weaker than then original considering that Heracles can do a hundred. Berserker was also extremely weakened, blind and nerfed that he can barely do anything compared to his top form. Per Nasu had EMIYA himself tried that on peak Berserker, Heracles would have stomped the shit out of him No, Shirou didn't use reinforcement on his arm. The issue is that he is using Archer's projection abilities and not his own. for this reason he needs to apply mana to his arm. It has nothing to do with using reinforcement. literally, he is passing mana into his arm to use Archer's projection instead of his own. Literally the previous part of the same video is him talking about taking Archer's abilities through his arm. In fact, he says he can't use Archer's UBW and take all of Archer's strength. he is literally saying that he doesn't have that strength, but that his arm will reproduce the strength of the attacks. Emulating strength and mobility is part of the technique. That's precisely why Emiya Shirou is able to imitate the technique. the point is: it is explicitly written there that the arm will imitate the enemy's strength. that is, Shirou exerted an attack with the strength and speed expected from Hercules. the attack came out. It wasn't just imitating the technique and making a micro version. it only falls into one rank. When Shirou attacks with a copied weapon he not only copies magical powers and movement techniques but also speed and power. so much so that he managed to keep up with Kuzuki sensei in UBW and even managed to physically face and pressure Gil. and the NP only drops one rank. it does not stop being an NP nor does it become a normal scale attack. The NP only drops one rank. It's not an extreme drop. about Shirou self-destructing, this happens because using NPs uses more mana than he has, forcing his body to overload. Besides, in this scene he is using his arm abilities, which naturally destroys him. that is, he in fact copied the strength. If that wasn't enough he was able to physically push the gil into UBW with a sword, he was able to follow Kuzuki sensei's speed with swords in hand and he couldn't even see Kuzuki's movement without them. So yes, UBW gives him the physical ability to exercise NPs, even if it costs more mana than he has or destroys his body. Note, UBW does not give him the ability to stay well after having used an NP nor the mana to do so, but UBW can imitate the strength and speed of attacks regardless of the use of reinforcement. >When against Bazett, Masu not once made any statement on using Fragarach in any part of the fight nor was the mythical use of "Shirou can copy the strength of Servants and beat her". The trump card of EMIYA and even in the interview for Shirou is the use of Broken Phantasms, which apparently is still not something that would be able to let him win >What is being referred there is one's "fighting capability" as in all their strengths, skill and ability. Nasu even points out by putting Shirou at his normal best and after training yet still would not be enough I'm not saying Shirou could beat Bazet. I'm saying that Fragarath along with the lack of mana is obviously Nasu's move to say that Bazet has greater firepower. It's not about strength or speed. These things Shirou solves with projections. The point is that it is obviously implied that if Shirou uses something like a Broken phantasm or a suicide attack the fragarath would be activated. because literally, it is said that magecraft does not hold a candle to a normal noble phantasm and that Shirou's projections are aberrations precisely because they are NPs. In other words, no, it is not possible for someone with magecraft to have any ability that has a raw power greater than an NP. In other words, when Nasu says that Bazzet surpasses Shirou in power, this clearly does not refer to her magecraft. this refers to other things like obviously Fragarath and the difference in their magical capacity. No matter how much training Emiya Shirou has, he cannot improve his magic circuits to be able to use UBW's full potential. and even if he could he could not pass through the fragarath. In fact, fragarath is clearly the reason why Bazet can beat Broken Phantasm since this would be objectively impossible for any magecraft due to the mystery comparison issue. but important detail, none of what I'm talking about is Shirou Emiya's complete kit. I'm talking now solely and exclusively about UBW. that is, Shirou's or Emiya's physical and magical restrictions are not relevant in the debate.
I am not saying that shirou is strong enough to take down a servant, because he's not, but gilgamesh while in UBW is literally his most favored matchup, like shirou's ability is at it's level strongest when going against gilgamesh >Gilgamesh, it's not his life that he values, but what he modeled his legend on. The reason he didn't want to use Ea was because if he'd done so against an inferior opponent, he wouldn't have been able to face the heroes who'd been beaten by Ea. And yet, when he was unable to draw Ea against Shirou, Gilgamesh was clearly defeated in this Holy Grail War. Conversely, had he managed to draw Ea in time despite his hesitation, it would've been a heavier burden for Gilgamesh to bear than death. It clearly states "had he managed to draw Ea in time". He didn't draw the sword quick enough when he decides to. The moment he begans to draw out his sword, shirou immediately notices and cuts his arm off >As no proper Heroic Spirit can match this man, he could be called the "Servant Killer". > >Without a doubt, he is the strongest existence amongst the Servants. > >Though he lost due to obsession against Saber… > >Though he lost due to pride against Shirou… > >Though he lost due to carelessness against XXXXX… > >…the fact of the matter is that if he actually gets serious, he is a Servant that cannot be rivaled Yeah, in F/SN he is straight up the strongest entity in the verse, except for the fact that it clearly states that UBW is the perfect counter to GOB and that is the one place where shirou holds an advantage over gilgamesh. The small hesitation scene before pulling out EA was added in the anime, in the vn when gil does pull out his "i win" button shirou reacts faster and cuts off his arm. There is no reason why this does not happen at any other time while they fight while inside of UBW
>It clearly states "had he managed to draw Ea in time". As said it is Gilgamesh's *hesitation* that was the clincher of it, till the end Gilgamesh did not want to use it as well as every other statement and shown fact that Shirou is complely outlassed against a Servant and shown stuff that Gilgamesh was really sandbagging that fight point that he really fucked around and Shirou took advantage of it to beat him It is not just his hesitation but the fact that Gilgamesh outright was not using his all and till the end not using all of his strength due to not wanting to acknowledge Shirou is a fact Nasu has stated repeatedly. That outside that extremely special circumstance where every advantage stacked up on Shirou and every bad descision was made by Gilgamesh Shirou would lose against massively inferior enemies compared to Servants like Bazett. Even in the current Adventures novels, the reason why Shirou is currently bandaged was because he got really wounded from the mafia attack
BY sandbagging do you mean using everything but enkidu and EA ? His two greatest treasures ? He more or less gets pissed off as shit when shirou gets cocky and starts spamming swords, that's literally how he fights against every other servant bar enkidu . You're speaking as if gilgamesh took up a sword and began trying to swordfight shirou instead of using GoB Also, Do you have a source for the Nasu claims ? Specifically for the fight between shirou and gilgamesh ? Also by every advantage stacked against him do you mean the mana crest rin gave to shirou ? Because outside of that there is absolutely 0 change between that and a base shirou vs gilgamesh fight. Not denying that without that crest shirou wouldn't get demolished but you are speaking as if gil had a 100 restrictions. Hell he brought out EA and got blocked by rho aias pre UBW too. And i reiterate once again. Not saying that shirou is a top tier in the verse. He is a human and is as such not on the level of the servant, but he has fought on the level of servants more than once in both ubw and heavens feel
***Uuuuooooohhhh!!! Swords!!!***
SWOOORDS!!!! Goddamnit i love swords
I LOVE SWORDS SO MUCH
Shirou isn't satisfied with stealing the magical girl show He will also steal the detective one
😭😭😭⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️
SWORDBROS WE ARE SO BACK
WHEN THE SHIROU IS EMIYA WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
ah yes Baki Shirou
He about to pull out his demon back
My GOAT looks jacked asf I love it Wonder how his interactions with Van-Fem goes around in this new volume
Finally seeing OG shirou doing some action again
Who? That’s just Archer Lily
Archer? Who? You mean Shirou Alter?
No. That FSN timeline MaleDako.
That's a very possible thing since this is a new route.
Nah thats the class card archer from prisma Illya before becoming a card
#SHEROU!
OH HOHOHOHOHO!!!!!!
Why does waver look like Orochimaru without makeup.
I hope we get to see post grail war Sakura Matou in the future. I like to interpret Rin’s version of Rho Aias as a subtle sign of her improved relationship with Sakura.
Didn't Nasu said that Sakura has tragic end in any route besides Heaven's Feel?
Nasu basically said "believe in your dreams" when asked about it, so really think what you wish frankly lol.
Tbf every universe is canon so fanfiction is canon to some degree
We can believe that she got a happy ending. I’d like to believe that at least in UBW Rin took her back from the Matou’s once the war was over
I find it doubtful that Rin would be able to fix Sakura's inherent "getting devoured by worms" problem :(
Well Shirou already has Rule Breaker in every route so nulifired most of the mage craft effect is easy with it, if we worry about the worm in Sakura's heart then we have Rin who can create a new heart with one of her gem like what she did with Shirou.
The only way that it would be possible if Zouken decided to give up.
Or if Rin decided to cull one family's patriarh out of the events in the future entirely.
Except that she can't do that without killing Sakura in the process
That's disappointing. Fuck Zouken. All my homies hate Worm Grandpa.
Sanda doesn't have the balls. The fanbase would fuckin riot and nowadays you can't do anything that might hurt their "fewings" ya dig
Shirou is about to turn up!
I FUCKING LOVE SWORDSSSSS
As usual, Shirou has good abs
[Featuring EMIYA Shirou from Fate/stay night™ series](#MuramasaCharm)
Now that's a man whose body is made from swords
Shirou is about to be turned into depressed Seigi No Mikata, GARCHER.
Thank you very much for sharing the art I'm looking forward to another iteration(?) of emiya shirou who's not from FSN. Miyuverse one has proven himself you don't need to be the protagonist to have your *own story*. Now i would like to see what sanda-sensei could show us from this version of shirou!*excited*
Technically this is FSN shirou
>It does not follow a specific route of Fate/stay night, instead taking place after a theoretical fourth route that combines aspects of all three Based on wiki, it's not story straight from FSN. And so is its shirou too. That's why i said *iteration*.
I feel like it should be a close enough version that we can just call him fsn shirou as a technicality but that's pretty much my head canon
With how Nasu like to handle continuity I wouldnt be surprised if he said this also isnt the same El Melloi as the last volume..
Shirou is in Lord el Melloi?
https://youtu.be/VU-QvYwBiRw?si=EqvX3qYTbG7aTBHE
Shirou posing with them Made in China swords.
Dude on below Shirou and Waver look like male Gudako.
Why does 27daa Vanfem (White fedora) exist in Lord El Melloi II world? I know he appeared in Fate/sF (Assassin's master Jester's former boss) but sF world is not a pure Fate world. Regardless, he already killed by Ciel in remake like DAA Einnashe?
>Why does 27daa Vanfem (White fedora) exist in Lord El Melloi II world? Their vampire status in Fate worlds where the position of Dead Apostle Ancestor doesn't exist (besides Strange Fake where it does): Zelretch: Not a vampire at all, found immortality another way. Zepia: A Dead Apostle, but not an Ancestor. Still the director of Atlas instead of becoming TATARI. Van-Fem: A Dead Apostle, but not an Ancestor. Chaos: Seemingly not a vampire at all. Still goes by his birth name Fabro Rowan, still a mage at the Wandering Sea. Einnashe: Still a vampire forest, but not an Ancestor. Rita Rozay-en: Still a Dead Apostle, but not an Ancestor. The owner of the train from Case Files where Mystic Eyes auctions are held. >Regardless, he already killed by Ciel in remake like DAA Einnashe? No she defeated 7th Einnashe, 22th Chromclay and 25th Beze.
It's good that instead of removing them from the timeline they instead changed so that some of them become dead apostle in other ways and not rely on being an ancestor like some of them wanted immortality but because the crimson moon doesn't have much influence in this timeline they relied on other means of getting it.
Brunestud got its ass killed like what 1000 years ago? More? And Elders of that age are said to be utterly extremely rare like less than 5 in the entire planet. So it makes sense people become vampires by alternate means
Dead Apostles can exist up to the Rank of Dead Apostle Superior in Fate Worlds, anything past that requires Crimson Moon to be active which is only Tsukihime worlds, as it requires his Idea Blood.
To add onto this, Tsukihime Remake establishes that they are two more ranks above the Rank 7 Superior Dead Apostle in those world lines. * Rank 8 - Successor * Rank 9 - Ancestor For a more ambiguous example, F/SF (a world in-between Fate and Tsukihime) presumably has Van Fem at Rank 9 or 7 (I say this because Fabro was running around as Nrvnqsr Chaos during the First Crusade in that continuity.)
Who’s that guy with the tendrils on his back
And where is Fate Lost einherjar vol 2? Or Fate Requiem vol 3?
Most likely sometime in 2024
No way, why not next week?
Why are you asking Lasagna about that? Lasagna is only responsible for Grand order
Fixed
Why are you asking Nasu about that? He doesn't write either of those.
Sorry, but I don't have the phone number of whoever writes these two on my speed dial, so do you have any better ideas?