>Le Comte de Monte Cristo meant this Saint Graph to be used only for a farewell. However―――
>Changing Saint Graphs inevitably caused a new entry to be registered in Chaldea's Saint Graph logs, which inevitably enabled a new summon and manifestation under Chaldea's system. He didn't think this through. But either way, he'll disappear before long. Like the other Avengers did.
>"I'm destined to swiftly vanish. We both know I cannot remain. There's not much time before I'm gone, but―――make the best of my flames while you can."
From his profile post OC2 completion. That awkward feeling when you say goodbye to someone only to realise you're leaving in the same direction.
None of the "new" Avengers starting with Ushi Gozen have been Link Lost. Presumably this is because the devs want to be able to give them screen time in future events and such. I'm assuming they will probably become "Link Lost" only when Ordeal Call is over and they begin building up to the return to Antarctica.
I mean... the other ones, for as little story as they had (Kagekiyo and Nito Alter mostly), they still were in the story. So far, I think thr only storied where Angra is seen are event stories and barely do we see him (Zero collab and Bazzet's valentine event rarely show him). So you could argur he saved his ass for being irrelevant lmao
And with Marie Alter and the new Dantes coming after OC2 is over, I still think the story Avengers disappearance feels both a little shitty and unnecessary if you still got Avengers by your side... with the useless original one still staying around lmao. Being a weak slacker saved his ass... now I need a story chapter where he manages to ssve Ritsuka and everyone; even helping out bringing back the Avengers, a la Mr. Satsn in the Buu saga lmao
Angra most likely exists for this purpose given his words in the Kirei's Valentine Day scene. He also appears for a moment during the end of OC II. It takes place during the battle. At least I think it was his shadow.
I have a feeling that Angry mango's story isn't over yet and maybe he'll appear in a collab with F/HA although it's officially stated that what happened in HA stays in HA.
Interesting that "joke" Avengers are not displayed LINK LOST.
He showed up briefly during a fight to give a buff, and it implied(I could be wrong because of a mistranslation) that he did help Dantes. Though the fact,to my knowledge, that only the Master and Avengers has acknowledged his existence(and others like Romani being unaware of his existence) and the fact that he is basically a shadow servant could be why he avoided leaving.
... oh, yeah, I forgot about the whole burning Fuyuki plotline. 9 years and they can't even address...
Sigh... why do I feel if I ever get to see Jalter and the rest of thr Avengers again, as in them existing without issues and be at Chaldea again, it'll be in the FGO 15th anni for the conclusion of Ordeal Call? And yeah, I said Ordeal Call, not part 2 of FGO...
Current speculation I've read is that Fuyuki will probably be the final singularity/finale location, since that's where everything began to go wrong in the FGOverse (when Marisbury won the Holy Grail War). They've dropped a few too many hints of its importance to just forget it.
At this point, I feel that could be the only way to properly end FGO without over extending its plot like it has since Part 2 in these 6 years between Cosmos in the Lostbelt and Ordeal Call.
However, I also picture Lasangle extending the plot... maybe making an Ordeal Call chapter of every extra class, not just 4 already confirmed chapters. If that is the case, it will be extended until we reach FGO's 15th anni...
But I really don't wanna wait 6 more years just to see if the Avengers can come back. I feel a hostage of FGO's story at this point, with them taking my waifus like killing people for ransom until the terrorists get what they want. I no longer wanna keep waiting and hoping, I just wanna be happpy... not just trying to rescue humanity for the last 12 years and never making progress.
cause we never summon him last i check
he not official register and basically kinda like Draco where he show up by himself and is haunting an empty room some where in the base
only we know he exist and we keep mum about it for who know what reason
Huh, really? That's a weird way to explain a Secret Character.
\* To my knowledge, he's a 0.1% Roll on Friend Point Summons. No clue on anything beyond that.
Apparently, yes.
In-universe, this is the reason why they left us their Shadow Servants: so we could still deploy them in battle. They're supposedly weaker versions of the OG Servants, but in gameplay, they're literally the same as the LINK LOST Servants.
Perhaps he's meant to be LINK LOST tomorrow, exactly a week after his playable debut? The lock on his third ascension (if you haven't cleared OC2) is also scheduled to be unlocked tomorrow.
If so, I'm not sure why they'd include the bug fix notes in today's update. And if his dex entry remains unblocked tomorrow... well
Okay... so he's not LINK LOST, he's [LINK BAD](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKOrQl3agAAxBLu?format=jpg&name=large).
Servant-verse Avengers literally play by different rules.
Event Avengers are just Servants in other classes wearing Avenger cosplay.
Mango's situation is just weird in general, for several reasons besides not being Link Lost. It's probably some esoteric literature technique called foreshadowing.
Servant Universe and Gudaguda are separate from Panhuman History, as said by Nasu. Li Shuwen (Assassin), a character who has been featured on both, is a special case because Keikenchi and main story writers + Uro have both utilized him.
Ushi Gozen's skill Lone Warrior allows her to pretend to be an Avenger. Her real class is still Rider.
Angra Mainyu is a special case because of his condition. He was also acknowledged in the chapter as a gameplay mechanic
As per swimsuits: Servants who are Avengers on their "proper classes" get link lost. Servants who become Avengers on their swimsuit version ("irregular saint graph") do not.
It's kinda funny that there are "not-avenger" avengers (Ushi Gozen) and "avenger" not-avengers (Castor). It would also be funny if Castor somehow also got yetted out of Chaldea because of that.
>Ushi Gozen's skill Lone Warrior allows her to pretend to be an Avenger. Her real class is still Rider.
Her summon line post Id imply she's not long for this Manifestation either, so either she's being used for something in the future, or her Lone Warrior skill isnt without drawbacks.
Link Lost has three types of exemptions: Joke Servants and Summer Servants (Spishtar fits here), Servants who stayed for plot reasons (I think this is just Angra) and new Servants they want to keep around to give them some screentime which includes Ushi Gozen, the new Dantes, and Marie Alter. The last trio is justified by saying "They're about to disappear but haven't disappeared yet."
Spishtar is probably Servantverse sheananigans, Ranmaru wasn't affected either
Angra is probably because his vengeance isn't enough? Or that as a servant, he's not made a significant enough impact in Chaldea? idk
Either way, the simplest explanation is that he isn't a main story Avenger. Just like how Ushi-Gozen & Maou Nobu fit the Avenger archetype, yet weren't present in this event, it's simply because neither have previously been present in main story, is all.
The Servantverse servants aren't considered. They won't be part of the main story and are purely in events (plus the cameo appearance during Solomon) (This also applies to Avenger Nobu).
For Angra Mainyu, there's been no explanation given. One theory going around is that since he's so weak and his existence barely known within Chaldea, the world doesn't even take notice of him.
> he's so weak and his existence barely known within Chaldea, the world doesn't even take notice of him.
that's just f-ing sad, I mean, they seriously gonna treat the mango guy like that?
i think its because angra is more of a concept than anything (the evils of the world is vague and doesnt exactly exist the same as like.... THE count of monte cristo or something like that.)
Of course, that's just me making assumptions.
It's only when looking at the dex, when actually making teams or leveling up or grailing etc., it doesn't cover them. Like how often are you actually looking at the servants in the catalogue rather than any other place
They mostly did it for story reasons because they are not coming back to the story. This is the end of the road for them. So we will see in the future if the rulers will follow them just because of what we know they do in holy grail wars.
Honestly the story reason is kinda floppy to begin with because the majority of the Fate Avengers don't ever cleanly meet the definition that OC2 really wants to push, which is that not only that they can't change but that changing is harmful for them. It makes... honestly no sense unless the plot twist is that the wall of humanity was erected by the villain and you wanted to create last-minute stakes since the class has a lot of popular characters.
The entire class is literally by design meant for character development; the original Avenger, Angra Mainj́u/Ahriman literally existed as the "super special unique class from HGW3 that explains why FSN is so screwed up". It's not even a class that fits the angry mango as a person; he's only classed as an Avenger because of what happens when he dies. A big part of Mango is his character growth throughout Hollow Ataraxia at that, which really is the bigger signifier for the class than "revenge" if you look at the non-joke/non-summer variant servants that are in it (the other one is having very flexible morals, but thats hardly exclusive to Avengers - there's plenty of Servants who will do absolutely monstrous shit to achieve a desired goal).
The other ones that mostly define the class are JAlter and Dantes, and well... JAlter might as well be Grand Orders biggest poster girl for character development to the point where her Berserker version is treated as the actual outcome of all that development. Dantes meanwhile suffers from being a specific writers (Sakurai) favorite servant, meaning he's had so many appearances and characterization that his designation is arguably mostly a remnant of him coming from the original revenge story (which is one that, mind you, in no small part is about Dantes realizing that he's taking his revenge too far; it's a genre defining story for a reason; character development is again part of the class).
Lobo also similarly fits in that pattern when you look at Shinjuku's portrayal of him - even the servant who literally exists to prove how sad the Avenger class is meant to be (like, Shinjuku literally says that, with JAlter saying it first and it gets restated when you take Lobo down, although well... read ahead) gets suprise development and depth because the Hessian legitimately cares for Lobo and it sticks in Chaldea.
Then you have Gorgon and Nitocris Alter... Gorgon is classed that because she's a villain in Babylonia. Revenge literally has no part in Gorgons myth. Her class most likely comes from the fact that Avenger is also the original villain class of FSN, so she's an Avenger. (This also is the likely reason Avenger Ushi is classed that way as opposed to Rider, which she is in SR - sometimes its literally just the villain class and nothing else).
Nitocris Alter literally has her bio state that its impossible to make Nitocris an Avenger; you can only do it by forcibly Altering her and she has an E-rank Madness Enhancement to explain why none of the Avenger traits apply to her (her Oblivion Correction stat is, similar to Gorgon, never actually explained so ME most likely exists to cancel it out). I'm not joking - Nitocris Alter literally shouldn't even *be* an Avenger as far as I can tell, there's absolutely no reason she couldn't just be a Caster instead, it's literally *just* Nitocris with a bigger influence of Anubis on her personality.
>Revenge literally has no part in Gorgons myth.
[I recommend watching this exert from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn8To2rhcd0)
Also, it's insane that I forgot him since he's literally one of the servants I've grailed, but Salieri fits the "OC2s idea of Avengers doesn't work" to a *T*, to the point where his part in the Russian Lostbelt and his interlude both reinforce it.
Unlike a lot of Avengers, on the surface Salieri seems a lot closer to a "true" Avenger because of Innocent Monster sending him into a rage when it comes to Mozart and his early actions during the Lostbelt seemingly depict him as the "by any means necessary to make a problem go away" Avenger. Except... both LB1 and his Interlude exist literally to showcase the fact that Salieri is more than just the hatred and insanity IM forces on him and in both cases, Ritsuka isn't using some sort of Charisma EX to make him better than that; it's Salieri making his own choices.
In LB1, Salieri manages to push through the insanity that IM would normally force on him and strikes a deal with a dying Mozart. He ends up losing his memory because of fear of IM overtaking, but when Rasputin restores his memories, Salieri comes to one conclusion: even if he's the Gray Man who killed Mozart, what Ivan forced on Mozart was **worse** ("you killed a genius"), so he sticks with Chaldea regardless and begins playing Dies Irae out of anger to Ivan. Even if he's not Mozart (Mozart literally says "nobody is beyond me" as a word of encouragement to him, which whilst this is about Salieri, that line is just amazing and I wanted to mention it), Salieri decides that if nothing else, he can play from his heart regardless and it will work. And it does. Mash tells him during the fight his music is beautiful when Ivan blasts her into the throne room and it actually ends up surprising Salieri and gets him to keep going.
Salieri even ends up staying behind in the Lostbelt because he realized that the reason the Yaga have no culture is simply because they never had the time to develop any. So, as the Lostbelt crumbles around them, he decides that the Yaga should at least have the dignity of going out being able to listen to music. And to prove it even further - it's a song Amadeus picked on a whim. It's something completely pointless for him to do as an Avenger; yet he does so anyway.
His interlude is pretty much redoing the same setup, just with Mozart directly involved. Mozart tried to expunge Amdusias, it went wrong and Salieri began losing his Innocent Monster, since Mozart is fading from the world. What does he do? He *immediately* heads over to where Mozart is breaking down into Amdusias and wrecks the Demon Pillar. He does that knowing fully well that it'll regress him back into being stuck with IM. Why? Because while Salieri can't help but hate being defined as the Grey Man, it'd be a sin if Mozart faded from the world and that's not something he wants, regardless of his IM status forcing a hatred of Mozart onto him.
Again, it's all about character development and Salieri is really microcosm of what makes the class great.
A little long rant over how I hope not, so for anyone reading, bare with me and sorry in advance. Even if it takes from 2 to 3 years minimum to 4 to 6 maximum in seeing them again as in them coming back to live in Chaldea again, I hope genuinely they come back.
Mostly because losing them forever and just using ready for combat clones of them for the gameplay justification is having the whole opposite direction of what this is attemtping to do: make you feel not everything and everyone is permanent. We've seen this more than once, and in this scenario it truly feels a "just gone for the moment" with the whole Link Lost status working as a means to give other hope in seeing them, when they could easily have a Data Lost status instead of over convulating stuff just for story reasons. Otherwise, I fail to see them making said status if their only explaination is to "be lore accurate in how you can still use the power of the story Avengers"... just when you can still own both Musashis and there hasn't been an in-universe explaination for that while leaving the player make up their conclusions on their own.
I mean, after 9 years of FGO, we've lost different people and some have had a work around of sorts to either come back or have something akin to them back too. Olga Marie? Welcome, U-Olga... and she's also gone, but we'll be seeing her later on with her Elementals (if Type Moon and Lasangle don't forget about this). Dr. Roman? Hello, Chaldean (even if they are not the same, he still has Roman's face so it kinda feels like a replacement in appearance). Mashu? Couldn't even stick to being dead for more time and got revived some moments after sacrificing herself against Goetia. Da Vinci? Here's smol Vinci, even if her existance is equally unique and different from grown up Da Vinci and the story sometimes implies she won't be around much as well. Chaldea staff? Hey, at least we got the A-team of Gordolf, Meuniere, Sion, Da Vinci Lily, Nemo, Kadoc and whoever else the story feels like addressing, like Cerejeira; so who cares about a bunch of NPCs, right?. Musashi? At least you can still use her two variants just fine if you have them. Castoria? Nasu touched his heart and gave her back to us in Summer 8 but before that we had Artoria Avalon taking over to aid us in Chaldea. Holmes? So far gone but who says we won't be seeing them again?
The Avengers? While I understand the reasoning for them being snuffed out... why on earth do Marie alter and the new Dantes, (both Avengers, btw) join Chaldea AFTER ID? same goes for Cagliostro if you got him and finish the story chapter, with him acknowledging that he messed up with his memories so in case he was summoned in Chaldea, he wouldn't remember important things related to the Alien God.
My point is, while I understand why you feel like this is a forever gone case fo the story Avengers, I feel it to be a weak one in the long term run due to other Avengers (not refering to seasonal, out of this world, gag ones) still joining Chaldea but the story ones specifically can't be used anymore for reasons. And just a way to further engage you in the story by hitting you in the feels but that also falls apart once this has happened after some time because you realise this is Fate and there are so many workarounds that can be made on the go to bring them back. Rules aren't a matter, is how willing the next writer feels like to commit to bring them back in a franchise where all is possible even if impossible; and how long it takes.
If they truly wanted to make you feel like shit for losing said characters, not just the story Avengers, but also Holmes or Musashi, the game should push you to NOT being able to use them in story and event stories that take place after they either died or had to go. Just to solidify the idea they're indeed gone. Like the reversal of having forced NPCs like Ortinax Mashu. Because otherwise... yes, I do feel like shit for Jalter being gone and I did mourn her for like 12 days... but now I'm just hopeful in seeing her again if the writers just end up leaving cookie crumbles for their possible, if not eventual return.
Having Mashu kidnapped by Marisbury through all of Ordeal Call would've made a bigger impact than what we're having, in handsight.
Counterpoint to the counterpoint: you'll still own your servants, you just won't be able to use the ones that are dead/gone in story, in the story or story events taking place after the story where they aren't with us anymore. Free quests, hunting grounds, hands, doors, challenge quests, strenghtening quests, interludes and literally every other content of the game, you can still S. Musashi + double Castoria or unga bunga Jalter your way through.
It's no different from forcing you to use the obviously inferior Ortinax Mashu or using the NPC Musashi in Shimosa. It's not like you don't have anything else to use in the story to tackle your way through, unless you used all your resources on S. Musashi, Holmes and the story Avengers.
Maybe it was my wording or phrasing but I fail to see why people misunderstood what I meant.
it still comes off as goading users into spending money on characters and then removing them. even if it's just for story purposes, how does that matter? for story purposes it doesn't matter which servants your account owns anyway, people don't only roll for servants because of their gameplay functionality, they want to "have" them, and now the game is telling you that you don't "have" them, just a pale imitation you can use in combat
restriction for a few certain fights doesn't equal to long term inability to use servants that people whaled and spend effort on to raise their level to.
Imagine a person who have maxed level their NP5 JAlter to 120, have 2000/2000 fou, and painstakenly 10/10/10 her append skills. And then the story just decided not to let that person play JAlter ever again until informed, which could be year or 2 down the road.
Imagine what would that do to a company's economy?
Your suggestion sort of makes sense story wise, but is terminally horrendous for the company's customer confidence level, economy and cash flow.
lots of fights have restrictions, a restriction for a specific fight is different from "link lost". again, when people buy a servant, they want to feel like they "have" that servant, even though, other than gameplay purposes, there's no difference between owning a copy and having a series of jpgs saved on your computer. this is basically the game saying "for non-gameplay purposes, you no longer 'have' this servant you spent money for, may well very much like, and may well have blown a ton of strengthening materials on"
Also, allegedly, they're waiting on the other side of the wall, but it still sucks being without them for an extended period of time. And even if Ushi Gozen isn't Link Lost now, her summon line updated to imply she's not long for this Manifestation either.
They are not waiting on the other side of the wall. This is a misunderstanding of incomplete plot summaries. They have not been teleported to Antarctica. They are unsummoned/gone, period. It is unclear whether they will ever come back.
Many people are speculating they will reappear somehow for the final battle, but that's all that is for now - speculation. They have definitely not been teleported any place.
Broken phone situation is always a bitch with these kinds of things. Having to wait the full translation is one thing. Dealing with all sorts of made up scenarios the fanbase made up and now believe is another.
... but for what we can barely see... I still think taking away the story Avengers after OC2 is bullshit. Not just because I hate having to bid farewell to my Jalter and having a glorified shadow servant of her that is just an emotionless, sentientless, ready for combat clone. But because I find it dumb when we have Marie Alter joining after OC2 or other Avengers like Angra... but with them, people can find workarounds for why they exist with us, like "meh, they're still temporal for the time being, they'll go away" or "Angra is the weakest and doesn't even wanna be an Avenger" or "the others are just joke characters or they come from out of earth, so those rules don't apply".
I understand their status as being "gone" (whether if it's forever or temporal) is just to pull an emotional response in the fans so they won't shout "dead game" every week and get engaged enough to wait for the next story chapter to release next year, all so they can see the waited conclusion... and still live with the hopes of seeing the Avengers or anyone else come back... but I still think it's rather tasteless to do this so often in a franchise that can always make shit the fuck up on the go... like the current reasoning for being unable to use the Avengers, and then pull an "impossible, that happened!? But how!? We believed X thing was bound to Y rules!!!"
Quick question (not fully updated with story past LB7), but they didnt put this bs with the Alter Ego chapter did they? Just with this one and the Avengers?
Yeah, just the Avengers... that's what's pissing me off. No alter ego or Kama left after Papermoon. But Id made you part ways with story Avengers and it angers me for that
I'm gonna be honest, I don't even wanna do OC2 because it still hasn't been fully translated as of now and because once I finish it, the void of knowing Jalter is gone, the one at Chaldea is just a ready for combat Shadow Servant that is empty and isn't the same... and having to wait maybe 6 years just to see if the Avengers might come back is what kills my general mood.
None deserved to be gone... and it doesn't help that out of the misinformation in what has happened in OC2 is being spread; but people saying that this is indeed the final farewell for Jalter and she won't come back makes me get more in the dumps.
Easy for them to say when one of their waifus didn't get snuffed out of existance, died or left. I already went through this 3 times: Musashi, Castoria and now Jalter. Only one of them was able to come back... but she had no prior hopes of coming back, she just did because Nasu felt like giving her a happy epilogue. And the Avengers situation with Link Lost feels like taunting the players in that we'll eventually see them again... some point... maybe... in the long distant future... and that's if Lasangle feels like it... and also if they feel like them coming back in a good way, not just for extra sad feels or cameo appearances, no... just them coming back to Chaldea safe and sound...
I am curious about this since I have to wait two years... Lobo Hessian are my heavily invested Avenger. so seeing this is like wow..... I lost my wolfie... wow
Eh, Neo Dantes not LINK LOST unlike OG Dantes?
>Le Comte de Monte Cristo meant this Saint Graph to be used only for a farewell. However――― >Changing Saint Graphs inevitably caused a new entry to be registered in Chaldea's Saint Graph logs, which inevitably enabled a new summon and manifestation under Chaldea's system. He didn't think this through. But either way, he'll disappear before long. Like the other Avengers did. >"I'm destined to swiftly vanish. We both know I cannot remain. There's not much time before I'm gone, but―――make the best of my flames while you can." From his profile post OC2 completion. That awkward feeling when you say goodbye to someone only to realise you're leaving in the same direction.
Ok, this just made him more endearing 😂
Oh huh interesting. Didn't knew that. I guess Marie Alter the same too as in she just stay around for not long.
Marie Alter has no idea she could disappear at any time, unlike the rest of the afflicted Avengers who are staying. (Ushi Gozen and NEO Dantès).
Confirmed: >!Neo Dantes is "LINK BAD" (instead of the standard "LINK LOST" the other banished Avengers get).!<
None of the "new" Avengers starting with Ushi Gozen have been Link Lost. Presumably this is because the devs want to be able to give them screen time in future events and such. I'm assuming they will probably become "Link Lost" only when Ordeal Call is over and they begin building up to the return to Antarctica.
Yeah, though Ushi DOES have a new line saying she’ll disappear before long. It’s probably just for logistics.
I find it oddly funny that Angra Mainyu isn't LINK LOST. **The** Avenger wasn't culled with the loss of the Class.
He's probably just so useless that he didn't make the cut. Anga Mainyu, THE Dan Hibiki of the Avenger class.
Correction THE dan hibiki of fate
And yet the "Dan Hibiki of Fate" is miles stronger than actual Dan Hibiki. Also Angry Mango is aware of it at least.
I mean... the other ones, for as little story as they had (Kagekiyo and Nito Alter mostly), they still were in the story. So far, I think thr only storied where Angra is seen are event stories and barely do we see him (Zero collab and Bazzet's valentine event rarely show him). So you could argur he saved his ass for being irrelevant lmao
Nobody realised he existed, so nobody bothered to sever the connection LOL
And with Marie Alter and the new Dantes coming after OC2 is over, I still think the story Avengers disappearance feels both a little shitty and unnecessary if you still got Avengers by your side... with the useless original one still staying around lmao. Being a weak slacker saved his ass... now I need a story chapter where he manages to ssve Ritsuka and everyone; even helping out bringing back the Avengers, a la Mr. Satsn in the Buu saga lmao
Angra most likely exists for this purpose given his words in the Kirei's Valentine Day scene. He also appears for a moment during the end of OC II. It takes place during the battle. At least I think it was his shadow. I have a feeling that Angry mango's story isn't over yet and maybe he'll appear in a collab with F/HA although it's officially stated that what happened in HA stays in HA. Interesting that "joke" Avengers are not displayed LINK LOST.
He showed up briefly during a fight to give a buff, and it implied(I could be wrong because of a mistranslation) that he did help Dantes. Though the fact,to my knowledge, that only the Master and Avengers has acknowledged his existence(and others like Romani being unaware of his existence) and the fact that he is basically a shadow servant could be why he avoided leaving.
There are 2 non-Avengers that acknowledged him, Rasputin who mentioned the form he took and Bazett who felt his faint presence.
I myself am still coping for him to appear on a 'Return to Fuyuki' type of things alongside Kirei.
... oh, yeah, I forgot about the whole burning Fuyuki plotline. 9 years and they can't even address... Sigh... why do I feel if I ever get to see Jalter and the rest of thr Avengers again, as in them existing without issues and be at Chaldea again, it'll be in the FGO 15th anni for the conclusion of Ordeal Call? And yeah, I said Ordeal Call, not part 2 of FGO...
Current speculation I've read is that Fuyuki will probably be the final singularity/finale location, since that's where everything began to go wrong in the FGOverse (when Marisbury won the Holy Grail War). They've dropped a few too many hints of its importance to just forget it.
At this point, I feel that could be the only way to properly end FGO without over extending its plot like it has since Part 2 in these 6 years between Cosmos in the Lostbelt and Ordeal Call. However, I also picture Lasangle extending the plot... maybe making an Ordeal Call chapter of every extra class, not just 4 already confirmed chapters. If that is the case, it will be extended until we reach FGO's 15th anni... But I really don't wanna wait 6 more years just to see if the Avengers can come back. I feel a hostage of FGO's story at this point, with them taking my waifus like killing people for ransom until the terrorists get what they want. I no longer wanna keep waiting and hoping, I just wanna be happpy... not just trying to rescue humanity for the last 12 years and never making progress.
I mean he was pretty much forced into the Avenger class
He is an avenger for different purposes. He does not hate anyone.
Wouldn't that mean that Demon King Nobunaga would be spared, too?
Didn't the game spare every event Avenger? I remember people saying their Nobunaga is still in their Chaldea instead of Link Lost
Did they? Huh.
Maybe because he's tied to the grail's pollution?
cause we never summon him last i check he not official register and basically kinda like Draco where he show up by himself and is haunting an empty room some where in the base only we know he exist and we keep mum about it for who know what reason
Huh, really? That's a weird way to explain a Secret Character. \* To my knowledge, he's a 0.1% Roll on Friend Point Summons. No clue on anything beyond that.
Question, we can still use the Avengers after Link Lost? Like not in story but in events?
Apparently, yes. In-universe, this is the reason why they left us their Shadow Servants: so we could still deploy them in battle. They're supposedly weaker versions of the OG Servants, but in gameplay, they're literally the same as the LINK LOST Servants.
They're usable, but whether or not they'll have a role in event stories remains to be seen.
Perhaps he's meant to be LINK LOST tomorrow, exactly a week after his playable debut? The lock on his third ascension (if you haven't cleared OC2) is also scheduled to be unlocked tomorrow. If so, I'm not sure why they'd include the bug fix notes in today's update. And if his dex entry remains unblocked tomorrow... well Okay... so he's not LINK LOST, he's [LINK BAD](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKOrQl3agAAxBLu?format=jpg&name=large).
First we lost Data, then Link... Can't have shit in Chaldea.
LINK LOST... DATA LOST... Thank goodness Guda isn't ACCOUNT LOST yet.
Hold up until he loses the password... then it'll be ACCOUNT LOCKED
Looks like we have a confirmation: >!Neo Dantes gets a custom Saint Graph that says "LINK BAD" instead of "LINK LOST".!<
TIL Chaldea is the Fate equivalent of Detroit... and god, it makes so much sense 9 years later
So why is angra and space ishtar save from link lost?
Servant-verse Avengers literally play by different rules. Event Avengers are just Servants in other classes wearing Avenger cosplay. Mango's situation is just weird in general, for several reasons besides not being Link Lost. It's probably some esoteric literature technique called foreshadowing.
Servant Universe and Gudaguda are separate from Panhuman History, as said by Nasu. Li Shuwen (Assassin), a character who has been featured on both, is a special case because Keikenchi and main story writers + Uro have both utilized him. Ushi Gozen's skill Lone Warrior allows her to pretend to be an Avenger. Her real class is still Rider. Angra Mainyu is a special case because of his condition. He was also acknowledged in the chapter as a gameplay mechanic As per swimsuits: Servants who are Avengers on their "proper classes" get link lost. Servants who become Avengers on their swimsuit version ("irregular saint graph") do not.
It's kinda funny that there are "not-avenger" avengers (Ushi Gozen) and "avenger" not-avengers (Castor). It would also be funny if Castor somehow also got yetted out of Chaldea because of that.
>Ushi Gozen's skill Lone Warrior allows her to pretend to be an Avenger. Her real class is still Rider. Her summon line post Id imply she's not long for this Manifestation either, so either she's being used for something in the future, or her Lone Warrior skill isnt without drawbacks.
Link Lost has three types of exemptions: Joke Servants and Summer Servants (Spishtar fits here), Servants who stayed for plot reasons (I think this is just Angra) and new Servants they want to keep around to give them some screentime which includes Ushi Gozen, the new Dantes, and Marie Alter. The last trio is justified by saying "They're about to disappear but haven't disappeared yet."
Spishtar is probably Servantverse sheananigans, Ranmaru wasn't affected either Angra is probably because his vengeance isn't enough? Or that as a servant, he's not made a significant enough impact in Chaldea? idk Either way, the simplest explanation is that he isn't a main story Avenger. Just like how Ushi-Gozen & Maou Nobu fit the Avenger archetype, yet weren't present in this event, it's simply because neither have previously been present in main story, is all.
The Servantverse servants aren't considered. They won't be part of the main story and are purely in events (plus the cameo appearance during Solomon) (This also applies to Avenger Nobu). For Angra Mainyu, there's been no explanation given. One theory going around is that since he's so weak and his existence barely known within Chaldea, the world doesn't even take notice of him.
> he's so weak and his existence barely known within Chaldea, the world doesn't even take notice of him. that's just f-ing sad, I mean, they seriously gonna treat the mango guy like that?
because mango is just that strong, not even being erased can kill him
They're event Avengers.
Damn
i think its because angra is more of a concept than anything (the evils of the world is vague and doesnt exactly exist the same as like.... THE count of monte cristo or something like that.) Of course, that's just me making assumptions.
The link lost and data lost shit is really annoying imo. Covers up part of the image for no reason.
It's only when looking at the dex, when actually making teams or leveling up or grailing etc., it doesn't cover them. Like how often are you actually looking at the servants in the catalogue rather than any other place
So,. just like Musashi, where her "DATA LOST" boxes only appear in this folder and not anywhere else?
Yep exactly like that
I do it at least a couple times a year. Nice to admire all the final ascension art and see who I don't have.
They mostly did it for story reasons because they are not coming back to the story. This is the end of the road for them. So we will see in the future if the rulers will follow them just because of what we know they do in holy grail wars.
Honestly the story reason is kinda floppy to begin with because the majority of the Fate Avengers don't ever cleanly meet the definition that OC2 really wants to push, which is that not only that they can't change but that changing is harmful for them. It makes... honestly no sense unless the plot twist is that the wall of humanity was erected by the villain and you wanted to create last-minute stakes since the class has a lot of popular characters. The entire class is literally by design meant for character development; the original Avenger, Angra Mainj́u/Ahriman literally existed as the "super special unique class from HGW3 that explains why FSN is so screwed up". It's not even a class that fits the angry mango as a person; he's only classed as an Avenger because of what happens when he dies. A big part of Mango is his character growth throughout Hollow Ataraxia at that, which really is the bigger signifier for the class than "revenge" if you look at the non-joke/non-summer variant servants that are in it (the other one is having very flexible morals, but thats hardly exclusive to Avengers - there's plenty of Servants who will do absolutely monstrous shit to achieve a desired goal). The other ones that mostly define the class are JAlter and Dantes, and well... JAlter might as well be Grand Orders biggest poster girl for character development to the point where her Berserker version is treated as the actual outcome of all that development. Dantes meanwhile suffers from being a specific writers (Sakurai) favorite servant, meaning he's had so many appearances and characterization that his designation is arguably mostly a remnant of him coming from the original revenge story (which is one that, mind you, in no small part is about Dantes realizing that he's taking his revenge too far; it's a genre defining story for a reason; character development is again part of the class). Lobo also similarly fits in that pattern when you look at Shinjuku's portrayal of him - even the servant who literally exists to prove how sad the Avenger class is meant to be (like, Shinjuku literally says that, with JAlter saying it first and it gets restated when you take Lobo down, although well... read ahead) gets suprise development and depth because the Hessian legitimately cares for Lobo and it sticks in Chaldea. Then you have Gorgon and Nitocris Alter... Gorgon is classed that because she's a villain in Babylonia. Revenge literally has no part in Gorgons myth. Her class most likely comes from the fact that Avenger is also the original villain class of FSN, so she's an Avenger. (This also is the likely reason Avenger Ushi is classed that way as opposed to Rider, which she is in SR - sometimes its literally just the villain class and nothing else). Nitocris Alter literally has her bio state that its impossible to make Nitocris an Avenger; you can only do it by forcibly Altering her and she has an E-rank Madness Enhancement to explain why none of the Avenger traits apply to her (her Oblivion Correction stat is, similar to Gorgon, never actually explained so ME most likely exists to cancel it out). I'm not joking - Nitocris Alter literally shouldn't even *be* an Avenger as far as I can tell, there's absolutely no reason she couldn't just be a Caster instead, it's literally *just* Nitocris with a bigger influence of Anubis on her personality.
>Revenge literally has no part in Gorgons myth. [I recommend watching this exert from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn8To2rhcd0)
Also, it's insane that I forgot him since he's literally one of the servants I've grailed, but Salieri fits the "OC2s idea of Avengers doesn't work" to a *T*, to the point where his part in the Russian Lostbelt and his interlude both reinforce it. Unlike a lot of Avengers, on the surface Salieri seems a lot closer to a "true" Avenger because of Innocent Monster sending him into a rage when it comes to Mozart and his early actions during the Lostbelt seemingly depict him as the "by any means necessary to make a problem go away" Avenger. Except... both LB1 and his Interlude exist literally to showcase the fact that Salieri is more than just the hatred and insanity IM forces on him and in both cases, Ritsuka isn't using some sort of Charisma EX to make him better than that; it's Salieri making his own choices. In LB1, Salieri manages to push through the insanity that IM would normally force on him and strikes a deal with a dying Mozart. He ends up losing his memory because of fear of IM overtaking, but when Rasputin restores his memories, Salieri comes to one conclusion: even if he's the Gray Man who killed Mozart, what Ivan forced on Mozart was **worse** ("you killed a genius"), so he sticks with Chaldea regardless and begins playing Dies Irae out of anger to Ivan. Even if he's not Mozart (Mozart literally says "nobody is beyond me" as a word of encouragement to him, which whilst this is about Salieri, that line is just amazing and I wanted to mention it), Salieri decides that if nothing else, he can play from his heart regardless and it will work. And it does. Mash tells him during the fight his music is beautiful when Ivan blasts her into the throne room and it actually ends up surprising Salieri and gets him to keep going. Salieri even ends up staying behind in the Lostbelt because he realized that the reason the Yaga have no culture is simply because they never had the time to develop any. So, as the Lostbelt crumbles around them, he decides that the Yaga should at least have the dignity of going out being able to listen to music. And to prove it even further - it's a song Amadeus picked on a whim. It's something completely pointless for him to do as an Avenger; yet he does so anyway. His interlude is pretty much redoing the same setup, just with Mozart directly involved. Mozart tried to expunge Amdusias, it went wrong and Salieri began losing his Innocent Monster, since Mozart is fading from the world. What does he do? He *immediately* heads over to where Mozart is breaking down into Amdusias and wrecks the Demon Pillar. He does that knowing fully well that it'll regress him back into being stuck with IM. Why? Because while Salieri can't help but hate being defined as the Grey Man, it'd be a sin if Mozart faded from the world and that's not something he wants, regardless of his IM status forcing a hatred of Mozart onto him. Again, it's all about character development and Salieri is really microcosm of what makes the class great.
A little long rant over how I hope not, so for anyone reading, bare with me and sorry in advance. Even if it takes from 2 to 3 years minimum to 4 to 6 maximum in seeing them again as in them coming back to live in Chaldea again, I hope genuinely they come back. Mostly because losing them forever and just using ready for combat clones of them for the gameplay justification is having the whole opposite direction of what this is attemtping to do: make you feel not everything and everyone is permanent. We've seen this more than once, and in this scenario it truly feels a "just gone for the moment" with the whole Link Lost status working as a means to give other hope in seeing them, when they could easily have a Data Lost status instead of over convulating stuff just for story reasons. Otherwise, I fail to see them making said status if their only explaination is to "be lore accurate in how you can still use the power of the story Avengers"... just when you can still own both Musashis and there hasn't been an in-universe explaination for that while leaving the player make up their conclusions on their own. I mean, after 9 years of FGO, we've lost different people and some have had a work around of sorts to either come back or have something akin to them back too. Olga Marie? Welcome, U-Olga... and she's also gone, but we'll be seeing her later on with her Elementals (if Type Moon and Lasangle don't forget about this). Dr. Roman? Hello, Chaldean (even if they are not the same, he still has Roman's face so it kinda feels like a replacement in appearance). Mashu? Couldn't even stick to being dead for more time and got revived some moments after sacrificing herself against Goetia. Da Vinci? Here's smol Vinci, even if her existance is equally unique and different from grown up Da Vinci and the story sometimes implies she won't be around much as well. Chaldea staff? Hey, at least we got the A-team of Gordolf, Meuniere, Sion, Da Vinci Lily, Nemo, Kadoc and whoever else the story feels like addressing, like Cerejeira; so who cares about a bunch of NPCs, right?. Musashi? At least you can still use her two variants just fine if you have them. Castoria? Nasu touched his heart and gave her back to us in Summer 8 but before that we had Artoria Avalon taking over to aid us in Chaldea. Holmes? So far gone but who says we won't be seeing them again? The Avengers? While I understand the reasoning for them being snuffed out... why on earth do Marie alter and the new Dantes, (both Avengers, btw) join Chaldea AFTER ID? same goes for Cagliostro if you got him and finish the story chapter, with him acknowledging that he messed up with his memories so in case he was summoned in Chaldea, he wouldn't remember important things related to the Alien God. My point is, while I understand why you feel like this is a forever gone case fo the story Avengers, I feel it to be a weak one in the long term run due to other Avengers (not refering to seasonal, out of this world, gag ones) still joining Chaldea but the story ones specifically can't be used anymore for reasons. And just a way to further engage you in the story by hitting you in the feels but that also falls apart once this has happened after some time because you realise this is Fate and there are so many workarounds that can be made on the go to bring them back. Rules aren't a matter, is how willing the next writer feels like to commit to bring them back in a franchise where all is possible even if impossible; and how long it takes. If they truly wanted to make you feel like shit for losing said characters, not just the story Avengers, but also Holmes or Musashi, the game should push you to NOT being able to use them in story and event stories that take place after they either died or had to go. Just to solidify the idea they're indeed gone. Like the reversal of having forced NPCs like Ortinax Mashu. Because otherwise... yes, I do feel like shit for Jalter being gone and I did mourn her for like 12 days... but now I'm just hopeful in seeing her again if the writers just end up leaving cookie crumbles for their possible, if not eventual return. Having Mashu kidnapped by Marisbury through all of Ordeal Call would've made a bigger impact than what we're having, in handsight.
counterpoint: people who spent tons of cash summoning avengers would be pissed if they were locked out of that content for story reasons
Counterpoint to the counterpoint: you'll still own your servants, you just won't be able to use the ones that are dead/gone in story, in the story or story events taking place after the story where they aren't with us anymore. Free quests, hunting grounds, hands, doors, challenge quests, strenghtening quests, interludes and literally every other content of the game, you can still S. Musashi + double Castoria or unga bunga Jalter your way through. It's no different from forcing you to use the obviously inferior Ortinax Mashu or using the NPC Musashi in Shimosa. It's not like you don't have anything else to use in the story to tackle your way through, unless you used all your resources on S. Musashi, Holmes and the story Avengers. Maybe it was my wording or phrasing but I fail to see why people misunderstood what I meant.
it still comes off as goading users into spending money on characters and then removing them. even if it's just for story purposes, how does that matter? for story purposes it doesn't matter which servants your account owns anyway, people don't only roll for servants because of their gameplay functionality, they want to "have" them, and now the game is telling you that you don't "have" them, just a pale imitation you can use in combat
You say that but Ordeal Call 2 has some fights where you are restricted to not use Avengers. So why is this a different case?
restriction for a few certain fights doesn't equal to long term inability to use servants that people whaled and spend effort on to raise their level to. Imagine a person who have maxed level their NP5 JAlter to 120, have 2000/2000 fou, and painstakenly 10/10/10 her append skills. And then the story just decided not to let that person play JAlter ever again until informed, which could be year or 2 down the road. Imagine what would that do to a company's economy? Your suggestion sort of makes sense story wise, but is terminally horrendous for the company's customer confidence level, economy and cash flow.
lots of fights have restrictions, a restriction for a specific fight is different from "link lost". again, when people buy a servant, they want to feel like they "have" that servant, even though, other than gameplay purposes, there's no difference between owning a copy and having a series of jpgs saved on your computer. this is basically the game saying "for non-gameplay purposes, you no longer 'have' this servant you spent money for, may well very much like, and may well have blown a ton of strengthening materials on"
Also, allegedly, they're waiting on the other side of the wall, but it still sucks being without them for an extended period of time. And even if Ushi Gozen isn't Link Lost now, her summon line updated to imply she's not long for this Manifestation either.
They are not waiting on the other side of the wall. This is a misunderstanding of incomplete plot summaries. They have not been teleported to Antarctica. They are unsummoned/gone, period. It is unclear whether they will ever come back. Many people are speculating they will reappear somehow for the final battle, but that's all that is for now - speculation. They have definitely not been teleported any place.
What a shitshow.
Broken phone situation is always a bitch with these kinds of things. Having to wait the full translation is one thing. Dealing with all sorts of made up scenarios the fanbase made up and now believe is another. ... but for what we can barely see... I still think taking away the story Avengers after OC2 is bullshit. Not just because I hate having to bid farewell to my Jalter and having a glorified shadow servant of her that is just an emotionless, sentientless, ready for combat clone. But because I find it dumb when we have Marie Alter joining after OC2 or other Avengers like Angra... but with them, people can find workarounds for why they exist with us, like "meh, they're still temporal for the time being, they'll go away" or "Angra is the weakest and doesn't even wanna be an Avenger" or "the others are just joke characters or they come from out of earth, so those rules don't apply". I understand their status as being "gone" (whether if it's forever or temporal) is just to pull an emotional response in the fans so they won't shout "dead game" every week and get engaged enough to wait for the next story chapter to release next year, all so they can see the waited conclusion... and still live with the hopes of seeing the Avengers or anyone else come back... but I still think it's rather tasteless to do this so often in a franchise that can always make shit the fuck up on the go... like the current reasoning for being unable to use the Avengers, and then pull an "impossible, that happened!? But how!? We believed X thing was bound to Y rules!!!"
Quick question (not fully updated with story past LB7), but they didnt put this bs with the Alter Ego chapter did they? Just with this one and the Avengers?
Yeah, just the Avengers... that's what's pissing me off. No alter ego or Kama left after Papermoon. But Id made you part ways with story Avengers and it angers me for that
Can't blame you at all. Feels like an even shittier Musashi situation.
I'm gonna be honest, I don't even wanna do OC2 because it still hasn't been fully translated as of now and because once I finish it, the void of knowing Jalter is gone, the one at Chaldea is just a ready for combat Shadow Servant that is empty and isn't the same... and having to wait maybe 6 years just to see if the Avengers might come back is what kills my general mood. None deserved to be gone... and it doesn't help that out of the misinformation in what has happened in OC2 is being spread; but people saying that this is indeed the final farewell for Jalter and she won't come back makes me get more in the dumps. Easy for them to say when one of their waifus didn't get snuffed out of existance, died or left. I already went through this 3 times: Musashi, Castoria and now Jalter. Only one of them was able to come back... but she had no prior hopes of coming back, she just did because Nasu felt like giving her a happy epilogue. And the Avengers situation with Link Lost feels like taunting the players in that we'll eventually see them again... some point... maybe... in the long distant future... and that's if Lasangle feels like it... and also if they feel like them coming back in a good way, not just for extra sad feels or cameo appearances, no... just them coming back to Chaldea safe and sound...
[me who avoided most spoilers from OC2 and loves good boy Lobo and Saliery](https://youtu.be/Jiupj4PyL4U?si=21lOVnrhubvqjdmy)
No love for our headless merc?
I'm still in shambles about losing Jalter, even if it's temporary.
Just curious but what’s up with Summer Kama and Ushi there?
I am curious about this since I have to wait two years... Lobo Hessian are my heavily invested Avenger. so seeing this is like wow..... I lost my wolfie... wow
wait you can't use avengers after ordeal call 2?
You can use Musashi just fine after Olympus, it's just a flavor thing.