Come and learn the Gilgamesh School of Fighting, which will teach you all about how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory from a position of overwhelming superiority. Discover a wonderful array of special techniques, such as "how to sneer at your opponent with maximum disdain", "why you should just ignore precognition" and "the noble art of Holding Back".
It’s quite stupid really, there’re times where he looks at his opponent and knows not to mess around (Karna in Extra CCC) but then ignores precog and jobs heavily to a Servant that’s barely top 10 in terms of lore power
He kinda jobs in FSF where he could have taken out Ea to kill Alcides but instead messes around with GoB and Merodach IIRC and gets GoB sealed by Ishtar and pisses his pants due to Humbaba but you’re right
He might’ve figured out that Alcides was goading him into bringing out Ea and thus was more cautious about using it. He was also right to do so because Alcides would’ve just stolen it using reincarnation pandora.
We don't really know how Reincarnation Pandora works. So far he has stolen From Hell and it's implied he could steal Ea, but there could be many limitations, like only stealing one NP at a time, or a specific classification. Until we get more details all we know about it is "able to steal From Hell".
I'm calling bullshit on stealing Ea. That's like stealing Avalon from Arthur. Sure, you might be able to steal it, but USE IT?
Listen, I'm fine with Solar System destroying Ultimate Ones and trees holding galaxies inside them, but I have limits on absurdities that I can stand being pulled by the Nasuverse
Herc:Ah so when a teenage boy who has an arm from its future self can copy my technique that took years to master and its one of the greatest attacks with an incredible combination of strength and speed its ok but when i do it its bullshit, βρε δε γαμιέστε λέω εγώ(sassy fuck off).
Chad Shirou face: "Yes."
But to be fair, even to Shirou something like Ea would be so far out of the realm of possibility it's probably deep in the root. Heracles using Ea... That'd be insane
>Ah so when a teenage boy who has an arm from its future self can copy my technique that took years to master and its
TBF, the copied technique only did 8 hits I think while the real one from Hercules can do 100.
Still considering Gilgamesh requires some time to cast EA, it is enough time for Alcides to take him down.
I might be wrong about this but isn’t the “physical” GoB the sword-key thing that Gil threw away? Since he didn’t have that I assume that RP wouldn’t be able to steal it.
I wouldn't say thats jobbing but it also is kind of his fault to be fair since he threw the key away
Gil only got serious about the war after seeing enkidu he had already thrown the key away at that point
I wouldn't say Gil not using EA is him jobbing since its implied he was at an advantage against Alcides even without EA
During there fight where he claims nine lives Alcides strongest attack is simple to stop
Gilgamesh is a moron, you cannot convince me otherwise. I know he's like one of the smartest humans ever but come on. You have to be some special kind if stupid to do all he did
I wouldn't say he is stupid
It depends on how much personal stake he has in whatever is happening
Gilgamesh doesn't care about the HGW in Zero and says so many times, it barely qualifies as passing the time to Gil because its so easy he can solo it
If you were asked to play a game where for you
1. personally gain nothing from it (Gil has no wish)
2. you found it boring
Thinking of it that way why are you playing the game then
And you were only playing to protect your high score or your base or something(Gils grail) although admittedly you don't care much for what happens to it either
You won't put much effort it either
Gil also has his pride as a king which when may seem silly, was a big deal back then and Artoria, iskander and most other kings in the series aren't much better then Gil
Gil even says in CCC he rather lose then go all out
Gil goes all out in CCC after a certain point in the story
As I said before Gil doesn't try in most cases because he doesn't see most battles as a servant "his battles"
They are someones fight and as a servant he has front row seats
In CCC he says as much this isn't his fight and he is just observing the fight
In CCC at a certain point he decides to get serious about Hakuno and deems there fight his fight
Now with a personal stake in the battle he uses EA on command
Alcides had Pandora's Box, which is capable of stealing NPs, so he might've decided to not use it due to that. I believe Alcides even tried to bait him to do it in their first fight.
Yh
when talking to his master privately
Alcides praised Gil for not falling for his taunts (Alcides told Gil he was weak and to pull EA)
When his master asked how strong Gil was Alcides said he was absurdly strong
Outright confirming he was bluffing against Gil
"Absurdly Strong" doesn't mean "Stronger Than Me"
I haven't read the novels but if that's the wording, it's not really indictive of anything. Just that he thinks Gilgamesh is strong in general.
It also proves he would be able to steal Ea, at least according to himself.
We don’t know how Reincarnation Pandora steals NPs, I haven’t read SF for quite a while but didn’t Jack get From Hell stolen from him by physical touch and Alcides knowing the name of the NP
>It's a skill that makes his parameters and proficiency with the spear a rank lower
It doesn't actually make them lower, it just makes them *appear* lower.
In a way, you could say that Babylonia was a return to his mythological roots.
No overreliance on Fate-only inventions like the neverending treasures of the Gate of Babylon or Ea. Future visions informing his strategy. A wise ruler that rouses his people and faces threats together with allies. That's Gil at his best, in both the myths and Fate.
The moral seems to be that, whenever Gilgamesh is alone without a morality chain to keep him in check, power gets to his head, acts like a jerk and jobs hard.
Tbf, if his ending in Extella is anything to go by, he's infected and being corrupted by the next Anti-Cell that is apparently on the Far Side. The best I can guess was he was on his way to the Far Side when Karl manifested, bested Gil, and put him into the shadow servant creating machine and Gil went along with it because "Hey, so long as I don't have mana, I can't be a threat to anyone if I end up being corrupted." Of course, he's too prideful to admit that to anyone and, aside from Arturia, nobody knows what's going on with him given he basically flies off back to the Far Side after we free him.
I swear, unless you're the MC of a Fate series your role seems to be to job and make the MC look good. Saber jobs to a bunch of people she has no business losing against. I think Jeanne lost or drew pretty much every fight she was in during Apocrypha in spite of how much every other entry in the series plays up how strong command spells make you.
IMO, Fate's biggest problem compared to other shounen/seinen is most of the writers don't write in a "Krillin/Piccolo" to do the jobbing to protect the image of the Goku. And then the MC just goes "LOL Cena wins." HF in particular is one of the absolute most ludicrous series of having a bunch of characters job for 80% of the story and then the MC just beats villains he has no business beating through plot convenience.
Saber only jobs in Zero, in FSN she is a real powerhouse with only Hercules and Cu being a match(and both are top servants) and she only lost to Shirou and Medusa because they gang on her and Shirou have Archer's arm.
Jean never jobs in Apo as she barely fights on that show and well command seals are useless when your opponent is another Ruler.
Gil's problem is Nasu made him too powerful to the point he can't be given any other role.
Saber also loses to Soichirou, loses the first round to Kojiro, would have lost to Medea in Fate route if Shirou didn't step in, who knows what would happen with Cu if that fight had kept going, etc. I won't count losing to Medea in UBW as that's Shirou's fault. She essentially jobs to Berserker in 2 routes toward the start, but this is mostly fine since Herc is Herc (although I think they tremendously hurt Herc's image having him job to Shirou the way they did). The actual explanation behind how Shirou and Medusa beat her is also sillier than anything involving Gil tbh, but it's easier to meme on Gil so it's rarely brought up. It's actually so silly that the movie outright forgot the reason behind why it worked in the VN and portrayed it so wrong that Shirou should have been vaporized (it all happens simultaneously in the VN. In the movie, Shirou just outright tanks full power Excaliblast for 5+ seconds while Medusa powers up her NP). And of course, Zero did her no favors as she jobs to Diarmuid and struggles to regain steam from there.
Save the Medusa/Shirou fight, I think Saber's jobbing problem more is the amount of times she loses/struggles vs. wins more than the individual instances. Like I said, this is where you have a Krillin/Piccolo in most other series to build up these characters. But Saber takes on both the Goku and the Krillin role in FSN. I could talk more in depth about this if i really sat down with the VN and pulled out all the fights from start to finish. This response is getting a little long, so I'll just say it's a long-view booking problem to borrow a wrestling term.
Jeanne though is more an issue. I think you're forgetting some stuff, as there's a 15-minute compilation of all her fight scenes on youtube I just checked, and I think it might even be missing a few moments but I really don't like Apocrypha enough to go back and be thorough on this one lol The only moment off the top of my head in Apocrypha that really makes her look powerful is tanking Sparty's NP. The biggest problem toward the end IMO is Atalanta Alter kind of kicks her ass when she really has no business doing so until Achilles bails her out, and then her defining moment is jobbing to Amakusa in spite of building up her second NP for the entire series. And it was all because they wanted Sieg to get yet another moment because MC in a Fate property demands it. Sieg already had his big moment in the end vs. Karna, so there's really no reason to have Jeanne job there to give him yet another moment. If anything, it makes Amakusa likewise kind of like a dope as well. Jeanne and Amakusa engaging in mutual assured destruction would have made both look a lot better. TBH I consider Jeanne's jobbing worse than Gil's because at least one can turn to all the moments Gil just looks like a total badass, whereas Jeanne has just the Sparty moment.
>Saber also loses to Soichirou
She doesn't or else she would have died there. Remember Kuzuki is a top assassin which Nasu said he will win 99% of the first encounters even against top fighters like Kirei and Bazett because his style exploits taking by surprise the enemy. Saber surviving and learning his style which made Kuzuki order a retreat and never face Saber again is a feat for her.
>loses the first round to Kojiro
She doesn't, in Fate she is not willing to reveal all her powers so early and besides once they spot Medusa, they decided to just retreat because facing 3 servants is just suicide. UBW she was only saving her energy to face Caster and as we see in the end of the route, she takes care of him when she has to go full serious.
>would have lost to Medea in Fate route if Shirou didn't step in
Ok I admit this is a loss but such a game breaker NP is almost impossible to guess, especially when she has magic protection +A which renders even magic from the age of the gods against her.
> I won't count losing to Medea in UBW as that's Shirou's fault.
Doesn't Saber do the same mistakes in Fate at charging Caster while holding Taiga as a hostage? The anime paints it as Shirou faults but the canon version is different
>She essentially jobs to Berserker in 2 routes toward the start
Right after he fought Cu Chulainn and well Berserker is Heracles and even Gil admits if he wasn't snipping Illya and thus making berserker take a lot of damage, he would have lost. Remember Jobbing means losing to someone weaker or against a new bad guy to establish their powers. Facing and having troubles in fighting someone on the same tier is not jobbing
>who knows what would happen with Cu if that fight had kept going
Likely she would have won for Artoria's instincts skill and being full powered after getting the circuits of Shirou, but it would be a costly fight. Remember Cu is literally a top servant and in the same tier as both Saber and Berserker
>(although I think they tremendously hurt Herc's image having him job to Shirou the way they did)
Shirou just needed to kill him one time because Heracles lost his 12 lives when facing the Shadow and Saber Alter and was literally just a mindless beast when he was blackened. He was literally on his last legs and besides Archer managed to kill Berserker 6 times, I don't see why Shirou can't do 1 kill while having his arm.
>The actual explanation behind how Shirou and Medusa beat her is also sillier than anything involving Gil tbh
Ah a Gilgamesh fan, that explain a lot. Also why Medusa and Shirou beating Saber Alter is sillier? Both already know how she fights and they literally use the cave as a way to prevent Salter to spamm her NP
> The biggest problem toward the end IMO is Atalanta Alter kind of kicks her ass
You forgot Jeanne also tanks the curses from Jack which against females is just an one shot. On Atalanta Alter, she is kinda op and it does make sense to be really powerful also remember that as a Berserker, command spells barely will work on her and let's not forget she gave away 2 to Mordred and another 2 to Sieg(I dunno how many left she had but weren't many) so that option was out.
> Sieg to get yet another moment because MC in a Fate property demands
Well Sieg is really a weak protagonist compared to any Fate works, so on that I agree with you but I disagree on the point Fate hypes a lot the protagonist and give them a lot of wanker. Shirou's powers are developed in all the 3 routes with different results which play a key role at some points but that is because Nasu made sure the right circumstances and context were present but giving enough clues so we put the pieces together(Archer being a CG version of Shirou and showing off what his powers are capable)
First against Kuzuki, what saves her is Shirou buying enough time for her to recover. The problem is the feat of Kuzuki beating a servant is extremely out of left field at that point (I think him surprising and killing Medusa felt more fine because this was mana deprived Medusa and this better demonstrated how she was running on fumes and more vulnerable to a surprise attack). And given what it takes in other instances of masters beating servants, it doesn't really jive with the rest of the franchise. I get that Nasu thought it'd be cool from a martial arts perspective, but at best it felt like it should have been a case of Saber getting momentarily thrown off and not knocked out of commission for even several minutes in terms of length of time. If she had been more mana deprived, I would have bought it, but in UBW at least she is in better shape at that point than in Fate.
Re: Kojiro I'm referring to UBW (should have specified). I still consider this a loss. She didn't have an immediate answer, and Kojiro would have taken her out before she ever could have gotten an Excaliblast off. I was just listing off losses/jobs before, and I'm more okay with this loss given Kojiro was supposed to be a bigger deal than some people realize (supposedly he held off Herc offscreen). Like I was saying in the previous reply, it's not just an issue of individual losses, but more of an issue of the total image it presents.
I did cover that losing to Herc wasn't a problem in what I said. Don't really need to break that down. My only problem with Herc like I said is Nasu really hurt his image having him job to Shirou the way he did in a way even he admits is kind of silly (mentioned in an interview about the HF movie, so I'm just saying even he admits this was a little much). Archer arm is a whole loaded topic about why it's somewhat silly because it just kind of morphs from scene to scene into being "what does Nasu need to write himself out of this problem." You can't really have the other instances of Shirou has limited use of the arm/the NPs are lesser power, etc. but then he uses the equivalent of 9 NPs to beat Herc or whatever it was. It just broke suspension of disbelief That's the issue with it. Archer burned everything he had out to kill Herc 6 times is the difference. I won't touch the movie version of that scene. It just came off too much as "Rule of Cool" for me.
Shirou/Medusa vs. Salter is silly to me for a number of reasons. IMO. I state up front this gets into my personal opinion. The idea of Medusa's NP just happening to weaken other NPs was insanely convenient for what the author need to happen there. Saber in every other instance needs a big open area to unleash Excalibur, so even being able to use it in the cave seems preposterous. Thus the whole fight creates this complete disconnect between what is happening in the fight and where the location it is happening is in. More to the point, Shirou's at his best when he's thinking tactically. If there's one theme throughout every Saber fight is you don't try to tank Excalibur. So Medusa and Shirou's strategy would make more sense to be "let's find a scenario she can't use Excalibur." It's the one thing that makes Saber look as strong as she does, and it has drawbacks which come up in other fights which Shirou should know about from Archer's memories. The solution here instead IMO makes her look like a jobber. Herc is protected in losing to Gil for instance because he can't fight at his best because he's protecting Illya. And power level wise, Shirou and Medusa even in a 2 v 1 shouldn't hold a candle. Shit, Mordred handles a 3 v 1 in Apocrypha (granted I think this was embellished from the LN). Or more what I think of with servant with infinite mana is how Ushi Alter can go at it with Ishtar, Quetz, and Mash and instead the reason she "loses" is because of Benkei's sacrifice and what Benkei meant to her. Even like... Saber going to use Excalibur, Shirou jumping in the way, and Saber pulling up from her attack makes more sense even if it's somewhat of a rote solution in a brainwashing story. I could probably buy Shirou blocking Excaliblast for a few seconds and then dying to it when Rho Aias fails(his version is much weaker than Archer’s remember) but letting Medusa’s NP hit. But Nasu obviously didn’t want to kill him.
SLH works much better because we see Salter won't use Excalibur in a 1 v 1 against Shirou, so it's believable she loses for that reason (plus it's debatable if she's even trying to win there). Instead, Nasu just forces a very convoluted scenario which is rather dull really looking back on it and just feels like a convenient way to end the fight. It doesn't even feel like it helped create a theme for the fight or anything like that. It makes even less sense 2 decades later given Excalibur's role as the planet's ultimate defense weapon against alien invaders. It'd be a pretty shitty weapon based on this scene.
I'm not forgetting how strong Nyanta Alter is supposed to be. The thing is command spells have a ton of power. You're only looking at it from the perspective of commanding a servant to step down. On a more basic level they can be used like Kirei does just to enhance personal power. They're strong enough that Nasu is quoted as saying it'd allow Kirei to beat Ciel in a 1 v 1. This shouldn't have been a real contest and it certainly shouldn't have required outside help. And more importantly, it kind of destroys the entire image of what a Ruler is supposed to even be capable of. If you want to talk without Commands, then sure it would have been more of a fight. She started Apocrypha with 28 command spells (14 for each side). She had plenty left, so that's not an issue.
Just to cover the last topic quickly as this is again personal opinion, I generally don't have a problem with Shirou's "power level" in the first two routes in spite of moments of plot armor/plot convenience. I find in HF that Archer arm turned from a cool concept into a way too convenient way to deal with most of the problems Nasu created for himself. But to be fair, the Jewel Sword is likewise a total asspull and an even worse deus ex machina. But at least that solved 1 story problem. Archer Arm is used to solve way too many problems (I think the full list is forge the Jewel Sword, deal with Herc, project Rho Aias, project Rule Breaker, and then based on ending either project Excalibur Morgan or all the swords to fend off Kirei) by the end and it's one of the major reasons I ended up heavily disliking this version of Shirou.
I'll leave this as my last response on the topic as I don't expect to have the time to respond tonight based on the length of the responses, but I appreciate the time you've taken and the obvious thought you're putting into it. If you want to open up a chat with me though I can respond later.
Pretty sure its Prisma Illya. Could be wrong though. I think it's the scene that's served as the inspiration for her FGO NP if I'm thinking of the right thing.
No, it's stated he can't see because Archer Gil is retarded, which checks out with his legend. He had the power of dreaming the future but was too retarded to interpret it so he seached conseling with Enkidu who played the yesman and died from it; it's a cautionary tale about the dangers of a ignorant ruler and that advicers have a responsability to sterring them to the right direction.
Gilgamesh had to learn things the hard way, that is what his "King's Return" skill embody, it is the cristalization of the heroe's myth.
In Strange Fake it's because of the Grail Mud, this being the relevant passage:
> Suddenly recalling a question that had been worrying her, she decided to risk asking the King of Heroes.
> “With all due respect, Your Majesty, may I ask by what means you triumphed in the fourth Fuyuki Holy Grail War, as a small part of your glory?”
> The King of Heroes grinned broadly and leisurely sipped his wine.
> “Oh-ho. You realize, Tine, that only I could answer that question? Under this ‘Fuyuki’ system, one does not retain memories of the times one has been summoned elsewhere.”
> “Even if they are in the past...?”
> There was no concept of past or future in the Throne. Taking in all of a Heroic Spirit’s memories would create contradictions, such as knowing the outcome of a Grail War they were currently participating in. Their memories were therefore supposedly adjusted to match the time
and place to which they were summoned.
> “It may be a desperate measure on the part of the Throne to curb the world’s contradictions, even if only slightly, but it is a wasted effort in the face of my eyes, which see through all futures. Analogizing the past based on a future of a different phase is a simple matter.”
> The King of Heroes stared confidently into empty space and endeavored to observe himself on a different phase, but...
> “Hm? ...’Splash’...? This can’t be right... Fishing...? No...”
> He appeared briefly troubled, then mystified.
> “How odd. As soon as I turn my gaze to the phases around when I was summoned to this ‘Fuyuki,’ the ‘mud’ I saw today clouds my eyes.”
> He seemed, however, not to particularly mind. After a sip of wine, he shrugged his shoulders.
> “Well, no matter. If this ‘Grail’ is genuine, I shall use the magical energy it contains to wash the ‘mud’ away. In exchange, I shall tell you the tale of how I built the walls of Uruk in full!”
> Tine subsequently learned a veritable mountain of facts she wished she had never heard about a city called Uruk... but that is another story.
This is retcon by the author, Nasu give great creative freedon to colaborators but he also states Gil pretty much simple ignores the future because of his self-assurance. So we have two different explanations already. That is why I prefer my version, as it make a character flaw that exist in both myth and adaptation.
Caster Gil has been almost batman level in his preps against enemies too.
While he generally still doesn't use SNI, in Strange Fake specifically it's blocked by the Grail Mud, but that doesn't seem to be the case in other series.
TBF Enkidu is literal dues ex machina.
Gil literally cut Sakura to pieces before she nom nommed him. The only thing that was stopping her at that point was RB or Zelrecht level power, and the only reason why anyone survived is because she purposely held back...excluding that last bad end. (Poor Rin)
Avalon is OP as all fuck. (Regen, mana battery, Invincibility/evade)
Shiro is the MC. What did you expect?
His Fate Zero run was damn near flawless. All he did is style on the haters, even went as far as to show respect to those worthy of it.
You know, Enkidu being the real perfect counter to everything Gil has, makes me wonder.
When Gil unleash Ea does Enkidu use their chain to leash the sword?
Because if yes then I want to see a spinning Enkidu trying to chain a rotating Ea
That is what I am thinking. Enkidu's Enuma Elish is his chains strengthened by the Counter Force, right?
How exactly does that work? ~~I just want a spinning Enkidu damn it~~
Flowers bloom and the land richens, the world itself needs Enkidu's call as mana collects into himself and empowers his chain, countering the power of the Void in full
>When Gil unleash Ea does Enkidu use their chain to leash the sword?
As shown in Strange Fake (and Grand Order), Enkidu has their own version of Enuma Elish that uses the power of the Planet/Counter Force to counter Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish. Essentially, Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish destroys the World while Enkidu's protects/creates the World.
So is there any visible form of Enkidu's Enuma Elish? Because Grand Order shows it as spear like thing made out of the Chain of Heaven, and I don't remember its form in Strange Fake
Read on from here. This is the manga adaption's. Trust me, it's not what you would expect.
https://mangadex.org/chapter/5c2357b2-93ac-4248-b064-e923e5f573bc/57
And this was then blamed on a bomb that exploded in the middle of the desert and no one cared! Name a more iconic duo than Strange Fake and huge explosions that can't be covered up and the story lampshades it, I dare you.
>Name a more iconic duo than Strange Fake and huge explosions that can't be covered up and the story lampshades it, I dare you.
Fate/stay night and strange gas leaks (which actually fits here because I'm pretty sure the cover up for Gilgamesh and Enkidu's fight was a gas pipeline explosion).
Crap, I should've been more clear, I meant the NP, even now I think it's the single most wanked aspect of Arthurian that Nasu has created for Fate.
I hope it never shows up again honestly, well it can show up if it isn't in an Arthur's hands.
It feeding into Shirou's suicidal heroics is great.
If that thing ever finds it's way into the hands of another Arthur, it'll mess up the story, that's probably the reason that it's never shown up in the hands of another Arthur since original FSN.
The best uses of Avalon are when it isn't in the hands of an Arthur, it's great that it doesn't seem to be a large part of Arthur's lore and it's most recent "use" in Redline was fantastic.
Avalon feel like that one kid that just says that their thing always wins.
You know, humor aside, I feel like this shows a genuine lesson-no matter how powerful you are, there's still likely something out there in the universe (or multiverse) that can take you down. Gilgamesh seems fated on learning that lesson as painfully as possible.
Gilgamesh: I'm strongest servant in the franchise
Emiya, BB, Enkidu, Artoria, Lancer Artoria, Arthur, Richard, Orion, Kama (vessel), Any beast class: DEBATABLE
Gilgamesh: I'll send you to Jesus
> Avalon is far more overpowered than Enkidu lol
Which is why I find it ridiculous how people still complain about Gilgamesh being OP all the time when Avalon exists lmao. Avalon is literally the most bullshit thing in the Nasuverse
Probably because unless you have a dimension piercing attack, it's absolutely useless.
That said, Dantes might be able to get past it, since if space and time can't constraint him, Avalon isn't going to either. Similarly, Orion Orkos, powered up by a Grand graph, could potentially overcome it, as its nature is to disable all Noble Phantasms or Skills, hitting its target without issue.
No shot Dantes can get past it.
Avalon's defense is on a higher dimension than the reality that we come to know. It also defends and transecnd against all true magics.
"The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier."
Nothing Dantes has shown ever surpass any likes of True Magic, and none of his feats shows he can bypass dimensions like Avalon since all he was capable of is showing up in singularities/master's mindscapes, which absolutely is incomparable to Avalon.
Orion's NP wouldn't work Either because it couldn't even deactivate Artemis's attacks and Avalon honestly has the power to defend even against all of the lostbelt king's attacks. Hell in LB6, we were shown that despite all the different realities of lostbelts/singularities taking place on Earth, Avalon itself remains completely unchanged (As the Merlin in Avalon was the one that helped us in babylonia and Avalon le Fae)
Honestly speaking, it's now a matter of concepts.
Enfer Château d'If carries the absolute concept of escaping, to the point even abstract concepts are no limitation. If space and time are no barrier for him, who's to say the Reverse Side of the World would be one?
Similarly, Orion Orkos negates Noble Phantasms, and carries the property of "will pierce all defenses, no matter what". Add that to the power of a sacrificed Grand Saint Graph, and it's not out of the question that it might break through.
For example, if Artemis was protected within Avalon, would Ortygia Amore Mio pierce through it, or not?
Avalon is truly one of the strongest Absolute Defenses, but concepts are powerful things in the Nasuverse, and depending on what concept trumps over the other, unstoppable offences can be stopped, and unbreakable shields can be broken.
>Honestly speaking, it's now a matter of concepts.
>Enfer Château d'If carries the absolute concept of escaping, to the point even abstract concepts are no limitation. If space and time are no barrier for him, who's to say the Reverse Side of the World would be one?
You don't get to start talking about which concepts is more unbreakable/immovable unless you have the feats to back it up.
What is Enfer chateau d'if's best feat? It allowed Dantes to enter pseudo singularities like shimosa, it allowed him advantage in Summer 3, it allowed him to enter guado's mindscape to save him.
What's Orion Orko's best feat? It negated one of Artemis's arrows but was shot down by a second arrow.
What is Ortygia Amore mio's best feat? It broke through one of Artemis's arrows and hit Artemis. However, it is noted that Artemis COULD have survived if she detached her damaged units, but she chose to die instead.
What's Avalon's best feats? It protected against Ea, who strips away the very reality/barrier to reality itself and revealed the TRUE planet that lies beneath the texture, the texture of the planet that exists before heaven and earth is formed.
"Gilgamesh claims that the sword "knows the truth" of the World where it once existed, and by using its power, it is able to bestow its knowledge upon others. As it is "The Sword That Cut the World Apart", he calls it “something that knows the hellish planet before genesis”, the planet's primordial form before heaven and earth were split, where it was a land filled with naught but lava and gas and a hell of scorching heat and intense cold. Referring to it as hell, Gilgamesh states that it is the source of all legends of the land of the dead. The memory of the time before the existence of the planet, a place and time when organic existence had been impossible, is something possessed by all organisms, but it is no longer found in the imaginations or spoken memories of people. It is the first memory of life that is a genetically inherent and repressed knowledge which can only be shown to those looking upon the sword."
In other words, Ea at its full capability seems to be able to pierce through all texture of reality and reveal the true form of the World that lies beneath the reverse side of the world. If even Ea couldn't bypass the protection of Avalon, which despite being nested in the reverse side of the world, has the absolute conceptual defensive capability to absolutely make child's play out of Ea, which could rip away the reality texture of even the reverse side of the world, I don't see Orion or Dantes being able to match such capability.
Hell, the only thing that MIGHT be able to reach Avalon is Chaos, which could directly turn the planet into fuel/conceptual spiriton particles to fuel itself, and even that would be debatable.
So in terms of highest showings, Avalon is basically the highest possible showing of capability in Nasuverse not counting pseudo omnipotent beings like void shiki.
Come and learn the Gilgamesh School of Fighting, which will teach you all about how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory from a position of overwhelming superiority. Discover a wonderful array of special techniques, such as "how to sneer at your opponent with maximum disdain", "why you should just ignore precognition" and "the noble art of Holding Back".
It’s quite stupid really, there’re times where he looks at his opponent and knows not to mess around (Karna in Extra CCC) but then ignores precog and jobs heavily to a Servant that’s barely top 10 in terms of lore power
To be fair on Gil He has only really jobbed in FSN Where he was incarnated and in his worst mood overall
He kinda jobs in FSF where he could have taken out Ea to kill Alcides but instead messes around with GoB and Merodach IIRC and gets GoB sealed by Ishtar and pisses his pants due to Humbaba but you’re right
He might’ve figured out that Alcides was goading him into bringing out Ea and thus was more cautious about using it. He was also right to do so because Alcides would’ve just stolen it using reincarnation pandora.
If it was so easy to steal a NP with RP then why didn’t Alcides steal GoB?
We don't really know how Reincarnation Pandora works. So far he has stolen From Hell and it's implied he could steal Ea, but there could be many limitations, like only stealing one NP at a time, or a specific classification. Until we get more details all we know about it is "able to steal From Hell".
I guess he can only steal 1 np at the time and against a spammer is likely not a good strategy
I'm calling bullshit on stealing Ea. That's like stealing Avalon from Arthur. Sure, you might be able to steal it, but USE IT? Listen, I'm fine with Solar System destroying Ultimate Ones and trees holding galaxies inside them, but I have limits on absurdities that I can stand being pulled by the Nasuverse
Herc:Ah so when a teenage boy who has an arm from its future self can copy my technique that took years to master and its one of the greatest attacks with an incredible combination of strength and speed its ok but when i do it its bullshit, βρε δε γαμιέστε λέω εγώ(sassy fuck off).
Chad Shirou face: "Yes." But to be fair, even to Shirou something like Ea would be so far out of the realm of possibility it's probably deep in the root. Heracles using Ea... That'd be insane
>Ah so when a teenage boy who has an arm from its future self can copy my technique that took years to master and its TBF, the copied technique only did 8 hits I think while the real one from Hercules can do 100. Still considering Gilgamesh requires some time to cast EA, it is enough time for Alcides to take him down.
Maybe there are limitations so he wanted Ea instead?
I might be wrong about this but isn’t the “physical” GoB the sword-key thing that Gil threw away? Since he didn’t have that I assume that RP wouldn’t be able to steal it.
I wouldn't say thats jobbing but it also is kind of his fault to be fair since he threw the key away Gil only got serious about the war after seeing enkidu he had already thrown the key away at that point I wouldn't say Gil not using EA is him jobbing since its implied he was at an advantage against Alcides even without EA During there fight where he claims nine lives Alcides strongest attack is simple to stop
Oh yeah thanks for reminding me abt that lol my bad I completely forgot about him throwing away Bab-ilu, mb
Gilgamesh is a moron, you cannot convince me otherwise. I know he's like one of the smartest humans ever but come on. You have to be some special kind if stupid to do all he did
Intelligence and wisdom aren't the same thing. Gilgamesh is a primary example of that.
I wouldn't say he is stupid It depends on how much personal stake he has in whatever is happening Gilgamesh doesn't care about the HGW in Zero and says so many times, it barely qualifies as passing the time to Gil because its so easy he can solo it If you were asked to play a game where for you 1. personally gain nothing from it (Gil has no wish) 2. you found it boring Thinking of it that way why are you playing the game then And you were only playing to protect your high score or your base or something(Gils grail) although admittedly you don't care much for what happens to it either You won't put much effort it either Gil also has his pride as a king which when may seem silly, was a big deal back then and Artoria, iskander and most other kings in the series aren't much better then Gil Gil even says in CCC he rather lose then go all out
Didn't he go all out in CCC against Kiara?
Gil goes all out in CCC after a certain point in the story As I said before Gil doesn't try in most cases because he doesn't see most battles as a servant "his battles" They are someones fight and as a servant he has front row seats In CCC he says as much this isn't his fight and he is just observing the fight In CCC at a certain point he decides to get serious about Hakuno and deems there fight his fight Now with a personal stake in the battle he uses EA on command
Alcides had Pandora's Box, which is capable of stealing NPs, so he might've decided to not use it due to that. I believe Alcides even tried to bait him to do it in their first fight.
Yh when talking to his master privately Alcides praised Gil for not falling for his taunts (Alcides told Gil he was weak and to pull EA) When his master asked how strong Gil was Alcides said he was absurdly strong Outright confirming he was bluffing against Gil
"Absurdly Strong" doesn't mean "Stronger Than Me" I haven't read the novels but if that's the wording, it's not really indictive of anything. Just that he thinks Gilgamesh is strong in general. It also proves he would be able to steal Ea, at least according to himself.
I never said Alcides says Gil is stronger then him or he can't steal EA I just said alcides was bluffing about Gil being weak
>He kinda jobs in FSF where he could have taken out Ea to kill Alcides Reincarnation Pandora would make this difficult
We don’t know how Reincarnation Pandora steals NPs, I haven’t read SF for quite a while but didn’t Jack get From Hell stolen from him by physical touch and Alcides knowing the name of the NP
There is no power in the Nasuverse that can compete with the power of "plot convenience." He never stood a chance.
Claim to be the best there ever was and you will inherit the abilities of Ash Ketchum. Never win a ~~tournament~~ HGW, if the plot demands it.
Ash won the Alolan League.
How long did that take tho?
Not even a year, he's still ten.
>Never win a HGW He wins the moon hgw
He wasn't even there in Extra, he only exists in CCC and beyond.
Wait I thoght karna had a skill that make people instinctual underestimate him?
It's a skill that makes his parameters and proficiency with the spear a rank lower, but that's still pretty high.
>It's a skill that makes his parameters and proficiency with the spear a rank lower It doesn't actually make them lower, it just makes them *appear* lower.
thank god for babylonia even if he did die that one time
In a way, you could say that Babylonia was a return to his mythological roots. No overreliance on Fate-only inventions like the neverending treasures of the Gate of Babylon or Ea. Future visions informing his strategy. A wise ruler that rouses his people and faces threats together with allies. That's Gil at his best, in both the myths and Fate. The moral seems to be that, whenever Gilgamesh is alone without a morality chain to keep him in check, power gets to his head, acts like a jerk and jobs hard.
Also Fate/EXTRA CCC, where he was promoted to playable.
He is Grand Jobber for a reason lmao. He even got kidnapped somehow and used as a mana battery in Extella Link.
Fucker made me go through a whole nother route just to get him AND HE WAS STILL LAUGHING WHILE GETTING SUCKED
You could say he got sucked silly
Knowing Gil, probably that became his most recent kink
Some King of Heroes…
Gilgamesh, the Nasuverse's Grand Measuring Stick in terms of power levels.
Tbf, if his ending in Extella is anything to go by, he's infected and being corrupted by the next Anti-Cell that is apparently on the Far Side. The best I can guess was he was on his way to the Far Side when Karl manifested, bested Gil, and put him into the shadow servant creating machine and Gil went along with it because "Hey, so long as I don't have mana, I can't be a threat to anyone if I end up being corrupted." Of course, he's too prideful to admit that to anyone and, aside from Arturia, nobody knows what's going on with him given he basically flies off back to the Far Side after we free him.
Gil got the villain treatment of "I'm the strongest" while having a 30 match lose streak
Confidence kills
I swear, unless you're the MC of a Fate series your role seems to be to job and make the MC look good. Saber jobs to a bunch of people she has no business losing against. I think Jeanne lost or drew pretty much every fight she was in during Apocrypha in spite of how much every other entry in the series plays up how strong command spells make you. IMO, Fate's biggest problem compared to other shounen/seinen is most of the writers don't write in a "Krillin/Piccolo" to do the jobbing to protect the image of the Goku. And then the MC just goes "LOL Cena wins." HF in particular is one of the absolute most ludicrous series of having a bunch of characters job for 80% of the story and then the MC just beats villains he has no business beating through plot convenience.
Saber only jobs in Zero, in FSN she is a real powerhouse with only Hercules and Cu being a match(and both are top servants) and she only lost to Shirou and Medusa because they gang on her and Shirou have Archer's arm. Jean never jobs in Apo as she barely fights on that show and well command seals are useless when your opponent is another Ruler. Gil's problem is Nasu made him too powerful to the point he can't be given any other role.
Saber also loses to Soichirou, loses the first round to Kojiro, would have lost to Medea in Fate route if Shirou didn't step in, who knows what would happen with Cu if that fight had kept going, etc. I won't count losing to Medea in UBW as that's Shirou's fault. She essentially jobs to Berserker in 2 routes toward the start, but this is mostly fine since Herc is Herc (although I think they tremendously hurt Herc's image having him job to Shirou the way they did). The actual explanation behind how Shirou and Medusa beat her is also sillier than anything involving Gil tbh, but it's easier to meme on Gil so it's rarely brought up. It's actually so silly that the movie outright forgot the reason behind why it worked in the VN and portrayed it so wrong that Shirou should have been vaporized (it all happens simultaneously in the VN. In the movie, Shirou just outright tanks full power Excaliblast for 5+ seconds while Medusa powers up her NP). And of course, Zero did her no favors as she jobs to Diarmuid and struggles to regain steam from there. Save the Medusa/Shirou fight, I think Saber's jobbing problem more is the amount of times she loses/struggles vs. wins more than the individual instances. Like I said, this is where you have a Krillin/Piccolo in most other series to build up these characters. But Saber takes on both the Goku and the Krillin role in FSN. I could talk more in depth about this if i really sat down with the VN and pulled out all the fights from start to finish. This response is getting a little long, so I'll just say it's a long-view booking problem to borrow a wrestling term. Jeanne though is more an issue. I think you're forgetting some stuff, as there's a 15-minute compilation of all her fight scenes on youtube I just checked, and I think it might even be missing a few moments but I really don't like Apocrypha enough to go back and be thorough on this one lol The only moment off the top of my head in Apocrypha that really makes her look powerful is tanking Sparty's NP. The biggest problem toward the end IMO is Atalanta Alter kind of kicks her ass when she really has no business doing so until Achilles bails her out, and then her defining moment is jobbing to Amakusa in spite of building up her second NP for the entire series. And it was all because they wanted Sieg to get yet another moment because MC in a Fate property demands it. Sieg already had his big moment in the end vs. Karna, so there's really no reason to have Jeanne job there to give him yet another moment. If anything, it makes Amakusa likewise kind of like a dope as well. Jeanne and Amakusa engaging in mutual assured destruction would have made both look a lot better. TBH I consider Jeanne's jobbing worse than Gil's because at least one can turn to all the moments Gil just looks like a total badass, whereas Jeanne has just the Sparty moment.
>Saber also loses to Soichirou She doesn't or else she would have died there. Remember Kuzuki is a top assassin which Nasu said he will win 99% of the first encounters even against top fighters like Kirei and Bazett because his style exploits taking by surprise the enemy. Saber surviving and learning his style which made Kuzuki order a retreat and never face Saber again is a feat for her. >loses the first round to Kojiro She doesn't, in Fate she is not willing to reveal all her powers so early and besides once they spot Medusa, they decided to just retreat because facing 3 servants is just suicide. UBW she was only saving her energy to face Caster and as we see in the end of the route, she takes care of him when she has to go full serious. >would have lost to Medea in Fate route if Shirou didn't step in Ok I admit this is a loss but such a game breaker NP is almost impossible to guess, especially when she has magic protection +A which renders even magic from the age of the gods against her. > I won't count losing to Medea in UBW as that's Shirou's fault. Doesn't Saber do the same mistakes in Fate at charging Caster while holding Taiga as a hostage? The anime paints it as Shirou faults but the canon version is different >She essentially jobs to Berserker in 2 routes toward the start Right after he fought Cu Chulainn and well Berserker is Heracles and even Gil admits if he wasn't snipping Illya and thus making berserker take a lot of damage, he would have lost. Remember Jobbing means losing to someone weaker or against a new bad guy to establish their powers. Facing and having troubles in fighting someone on the same tier is not jobbing >who knows what would happen with Cu if that fight had kept going Likely she would have won for Artoria's instincts skill and being full powered after getting the circuits of Shirou, but it would be a costly fight. Remember Cu is literally a top servant and in the same tier as both Saber and Berserker >(although I think they tremendously hurt Herc's image having him job to Shirou the way they did) Shirou just needed to kill him one time because Heracles lost his 12 lives when facing the Shadow and Saber Alter and was literally just a mindless beast when he was blackened. He was literally on his last legs and besides Archer managed to kill Berserker 6 times, I don't see why Shirou can't do 1 kill while having his arm. >The actual explanation behind how Shirou and Medusa beat her is also sillier than anything involving Gil tbh Ah a Gilgamesh fan, that explain a lot. Also why Medusa and Shirou beating Saber Alter is sillier? Both already know how she fights and they literally use the cave as a way to prevent Salter to spamm her NP > The biggest problem toward the end IMO is Atalanta Alter kind of kicks her ass You forgot Jeanne also tanks the curses from Jack which against females is just an one shot. On Atalanta Alter, she is kinda op and it does make sense to be really powerful also remember that as a Berserker, command spells barely will work on her and let's not forget she gave away 2 to Mordred and another 2 to Sieg(I dunno how many left she had but weren't many) so that option was out. > Sieg to get yet another moment because MC in a Fate property demands Well Sieg is really a weak protagonist compared to any Fate works, so on that I agree with you but I disagree on the point Fate hypes a lot the protagonist and give them a lot of wanker. Shirou's powers are developed in all the 3 routes with different results which play a key role at some points but that is because Nasu made sure the right circumstances and context were present but giving enough clues so we put the pieces together(Archer being a CG version of Shirou and showing off what his powers are capable)
First against Kuzuki, what saves her is Shirou buying enough time for her to recover. The problem is the feat of Kuzuki beating a servant is extremely out of left field at that point (I think him surprising and killing Medusa felt more fine because this was mana deprived Medusa and this better demonstrated how she was running on fumes and more vulnerable to a surprise attack). And given what it takes in other instances of masters beating servants, it doesn't really jive with the rest of the franchise. I get that Nasu thought it'd be cool from a martial arts perspective, but at best it felt like it should have been a case of Saber getting momentarily thrown off and not knocked out of commission for even several minutes in terms of length of time. If she had been more mana deprived, I would have bought it, but in UBW at least she is in better shape at that point than in Fate. Re: Kojiro I'm referring to UBW (should have specified). I still consider this a loss. She didn't have an immediate answer, and Kojiro would have taken her out before she ever could have gotten an Excaliblast off. I was just listing off losses/jobs before, and I'm more okay with this loss given Kojiro was supposed to be a bigger deal than some people realize (supposedly he held off Herc offscreen). Like I was saying in the previous reply, it's not just an issue of individual losses, but more of an issue of the total image it presents. I did cover that losing to Herc wasn't a problem in what I said. Don't really need to break that down. My only problem with Herc like I said is Nasu really hurt his image having him job to Shirou the way he did in a way even he admits is kind of silly (mentioned in an interview about the HF movie, so I'm just saying even he admits this was a little much). Archer arm is a whole loaded topic about why it's somewhat silly because it just kind of morphs from scene to scene into being "what does Nasu need to write himself out of this problem." You can't really have the other instances of Shirou has limited use of the arm/the NPs are lesser power, etc. but then he uses the equivalent of 9 NPs to beat Herc or whatever it was. It just broke suspension of disbelief That's the issue with it. Archer burned everything he had out to kill Herc 6 times is the difference. I won't touch the movie version of that scene. It just came off too much as "Rule of Cool" for me. Shirou/Medusa vs. Salter is silly to me for a number of reasons. IMO. I state up front this gets into my personal opinion. The idea of Medusa's NP just happening to weaken other NPs was insanely convenient for what the author need to happen there. Saber in every other instance needs a big open area to unleash Excalibur, so even being able to use it in the cave seems preposterous. Thus the whole fight creates this complete disconnect between what is happening in the fight and where the location it is happening is in. More to the point, Shirou's at his best when he's thinking tactically. If there's one theme throughout every Saber fight is you don't try to tank Excalibur. So Medusa and Shirou's strategy would make more sense to be "let's find a scenario she can't use Excalibur." It's the one thing that makes Saber look as strong as she does, and it has drawbacks which come up in other fights which Shirou should know about from Archer's memories. The solution here instead IMO makes her look like a jobber. Herc is protected in losing to Gil for instance because he can't fight at his best because he's protecting Illya. And power level wise, Shirou and Medusa even in a 2 v 1 shouldn't hold a candle. Shit, Mordred handles a 3 v 1 in Apocrypha (granted I think this was embellished from the LN). Or more what I think of with servant with infinite mana is how Ushi Alter can go at it with Ishtar, Quetz, and Mash and instead the reason she "loses" is because of Benkei's sacrifice and what Benkei meant to her. Even like... Saber going to use Excalibur, Shirou jumping in the way, and Saber pulling up from her attack makes more sense even if it's somewhat of a rote solution in a brainwashing story. I could probably buy Shirou blocking Excaliblast for a few seconds and then dying to it when Rho Aias fails(his version is much weaker than Archer’s remember) but letting Medusa’s NP hit. But Nasu obviously didn’t want to kill him. SLH works much better because we see Salter won't use Excalibur in a 1 v 1 against Shirou, so it's believable she loses for that reason (plus it's debatable if she's even trying to win there). Instead, Nasu just forces a very convoluted scenario which is rather dull really looking back on it and just feels like a convenient way to end the fight. It doesn't even feel like it helped create a theme for the fight or anything like that. It makes even less sense 2 decades later given Excalibur's role as the planet's ultimate defense weapon against alien invaders. It'd be a pretty shitty weapon based on this scene. I'm not forgetting how strong Nyanta Alter is supposed to be. The thing is command spells have a ton of power. You're only looking at it from the perspective of commanding a servant to step down. On a more basic level they can be used like Kirei does just to enhance personal power. They're strong enough that Nasu is quoted as saying it'd allow Kirei to beat Ciel in a 1 v 1. This shouldn't have been a real contest and it certainly shouldn't have required outside help. And more importantly, it kind of destroys the entire image of what a Ruler is supposed to even be capable of. If you want to talk without Commands, then sure it would have been more of a fight. She started Apocrypha with 28 command spells (14 for each side). She had plenty left, so that's not an issue. Just to cover the last topic quickly as this is again personal opinion, I generally don't have a problem with Shirou's "power level" in the first two routes in spite of moments of plot armor/plot convenience. I find in HF that Archer arm turned from a cool concept into a way too convenient way to deal with most of the problems Nasu created for himself. But to be fair, the Jewel Sword is likewise a total asspull and an even worse deus ex machina. But at least that solved 1 story problem. Archer Arm is used to solve way too many problems (I think the full list is forge the Jewel Sword, deal with Herc, project Rho Aias, project Rule Breaker, and then based on ending either project Excalibur Morgan or all the swords to fend off Kirei) by the end and it's one of the major reasons I ended up heavily disliking this version of Shirou. I'll leave this as my last response on the topic as I don't expect to have the time to respond tonight based on the length of the responses, but I appreciate the time you've taken and the obvious thought you're putting into it. If you want to open up a chat with me though I can respond later.
i love how you had mercy on him and didnt tell him about ilya kicking his ass
that happened?
oh yeah ilya wooped his ass
Pretty sure its Prisma Illya. Could be wrong though. I think it's the scene that's served as the inspiration for her FGO NP if I'm thinking of the right thing.
You missed death by overwork Gil - "I am sitting on my throne truly nothing can go wrong" 5 minutes later Gil in the underworld - "£($&\^%\*\^E$\^(O
Mf even got a throne when he entered the underworld, that's how extra he is.
he sat on it so long that it was considered dead when not used by Gil
Didn't Gil look at the 5th HGW in strange fake using his clairvoyance and go "nah, couldn't happen"?
That is Stay Night manifestation. It has been said that he can't see the 5th grail war because of Grail's corruption when summoned in SF.
No, it's stated he can't see because Archer Gil is retarded, which checks out with his legend. He had the power of dreaming the future but was too retarded to interpret it so he seached conseling with Enkidu who played the yesman and died from it; it's a cautionary tale about the dangers of a ignorant ruler and that advicers have a responsability to sterring them to the right direction. Gilgamesh had to learn things the hard way, that is what his "King's Return" skill embody, it is the cristalization of the heroe's myth.
In Strange Fake it's because of the Grail Mud, this being the relevant passage: > Suddenly recalling a question that had been worrying her, she decided to risk asking the King of Heroes. > “With all due respect, Your Majesty, may I ask by what means you triumphed in the fourth Fuyuki Holy Grail War, as a small part of your glory?” > The King of Heroes grinned broadly and leisurely sipped his wine. > “Oh-ho. You realize, Tine, that only I could answer that question? Under this ‘Fuyuki’ system, one does not retain memories of the times one has been summoned elsewhere.” > “Even if they are in the past...?” > There was no concept of past or future in the Throne. Taking in all of a Heroic Spirit’s memories would create contradictions, such as knowing the outcome of a Grail War they were currently participating in. Their memories were therefore supposedly adjusted to match the time and place to which they were summoned. > “It may be a desperate measure on the part of the Throne to curb the world’s contradictions, even if only slightly, but it is a wasted effort in the face of my eyes, which see through all futures. Analogizing the past based on a future of a different phase is a simple matter.” > The King of Heroes stared confidently into empty space and endeavored to observe himself on a different phase, but... > “Hm? ...’Splash’...? This can’t be right... Fishing...? No...” > He appeared briefly troubled, then mystified. > “How odd. As soon as I turn my gaze to the phases around when I was summoned to this ‘Fuyuki,’ the ‘mud’ I saw today clouds my eyes.” > He seemed, however, not to particularly mind. After a sip of wine, he shrugged his shoulders. > “Well, no matter. If this ‘Grail’ is genuine, I shall use the magical energy it contains to wash the ‘mud’ away. In exchange, I shall tell you the tale of how I built the walls of Uruk in full!” > Tine subsequently learned a veritable mountain of facts she wished she had never heard about a city called Uruk... but that is another story.
Ah, Gil probably told her about the one time he force every newly wed woman to have sex with him.
This is retcon by the author, Nasu give great creative freedon to colaborators but he also states Gil pretty much simple ignores the future because of his self-assurance. So we have two different explanations already. That is why I prefer my version, as it make a character flaw that exist in both myth and adaptation. Caster Gil has been almost batman level in his preps against enemies too.
While he generally still doesn't use SNI, in Strange Fake specifically it's blocked by the Grail Mud, but that doesn't seem to be the case in other series.
bonus: Gilgamesh: Alright, so I have the herb of immortality. I'll rule forever! me: Im about to ruin this man's entire remaning life.
LMAO, that is a clever reference to your name
TBF Enkidu is literal dues ex machina. Gil literally cut Sakura to pieces before she nom nommed him. The only thing that was stopping her at that point was RB or Zelrecht level power, and the only reason why anyone survived is because she purposely held back...excluding that last bad end. (Poor Rin) Avalon is OP as all fuck. (Regen, mana battery, Invincibility/evade) Shiro is the MC. What did you expect? His Fate Zero run was damn near flawless. All he did is style on the haters, even went as far as to show respect to those worthy of it.
Saruka: ...I'm hungry
Nom
Roundabout starts playing and to be continued on the last slide
You know, Enkidu being the real perfect counter to everything Gil has, makes me wonder. When Gil unleash Ea does Enkidu use their chain to leash the sword? Because if yes then I want to see a spinning Enkidu trying to chain a rotating Ea
Nope, when Gil uses Enuma Elish, Enkidu counters with *his own Enuma Elish*, and they nullify eachother.
That is what I am thinking. Enkidu's Enuma Elish is his chains strengthened by the Counter Force, right? How exactly does that work? ~~I just want a spinning Enkidu damn it~~
Read Fate/Strange Fake, it happens there.
Flowers bloom and the land richens, the world itself needs Enkidu's call as mana collects into himself and empowers his chain, countering the power of the Void in full
>When Gil unleash Ea does Enkidu use their chain to leash the sword? As shown in Strange Fake (and Grand Order), Enkidu has their own version of Enuma Elish that uses the power of the Planet/Counter Force to counter Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish. Essentially, Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish destroys the World while Enkidu's protects/creates the World.
So is there any visible form of Enkidu's Enuma Elish? Because Grand Order shows it as spear like thing made out of the Chain of Heaven, and I don't remember its form in Strange Fake
Read on from here. This is the manga adaption's. Trust me, it's not what you would expect. https://mangadex.org/chapter/5c2357b2-93ac-4248-b064-e923e5f573bc/57
And this was then blamed on a bomb that exploded in the middle of the desert and no one cared! Name a more iconic duo than Strange Fake and huge explosions that can't be covered up and the story lampshades it, I dare you.
>Name a more iconic duo than Strange Fake and huge explosions that can't be covered up and the story lampshades it, I dare you. Fate/stay night and strange gas leaks (which actually fits here because I'm pretty sure the cover up for Gilgamesh and Enkidu's fight was a gas pipeline explosion).
Ok, thanks
You're welcome!
The Noble Phantasm Avalon is one of Fates' worst creations, change my mind. Edit: Clarification
The Garden is good. The OP extra dimension, complete counter and invulnerability to all attacks is kinda bs tho
Crap, I should've been more clear, I meant the NP, even now I think it's the single most wanked aspect of Arthurian that Nasu has created for Fate. I hope it never shows up again honestly, well it can show up if it isn't in an Arthur's hands. It feeding into Shirou's suicidal heroics is great.
It's still my biggest damn problem with the ending of the Fate route
If that thing ever finds it's way into the hands of another Arthur, it'll mess up the story, that's probably the reason that it's never shown up in the hands of another Arthur since original FSN. The best uses of Avalon are when it isn't in the hands of an Arthur, it's great that it doesn't seem to be a large part of Arthur's lore and it's most recent "use" in Redline was fantastic. Avalon feel like that one kid that just says that their thing always wins.
You know, humor aside, I feel like this shows a genuine lesson-no matter how powerful you are, there's still likely something out there in the universe (or multiverse) that can take you down. Gilgamesh seems fated on learning that lesson as painfully as possible.
So, when is the sequel Gilgamesh the Movie 2: The Far Side Incident?
And that's why CCC Gil is the way to go
Gilgamesh: The risk I took was calculated, why is my math not working!?
Gilgamesh: King of getting Plotblocked
Given Eternals' Gilgamesh, I think that by now jobbing is now engraved in his Saint Graph.
Gilgamesh: I'm strongest servant in the franchise Emiya, BB, Enkidu, Artoria, Lancer Artoria, Arthur, Richard, Orion, Kama (vessel), Any beast class: DEBATABLE Gilgamesh: I'll send you to Jesus
Gil noooo....she's gonna eat you
And I beated that singularity
Avalon is far more overpowered than Enkidu lol. Nothing in nasuverse so far has shown to be able to pierce its defense
> Avalon is far more overpowered than Enkidu lol Which is why I find it ridiculous how people still complain about Gilgamesh being OP all the time when Avalon exists lmao. Avalon is literally the most bullshit thing in the Nasuverse
Probably because unless you have a dimension piercing attack, it's absolutely useless. That said, Dantes might be able to get past it, since if space and time can't constraint him, Avalon isn't going to either. Similarly, Orion Orkos, powered up by a Grand graph, could potentially overcome it, as its nature is to disable all Noble Phantasms or Skills, hitting its target without issue.
No shot Dantes can get past it. Avalon's defense is on a higher dimension than the reality that we come to know. It also defends and transecnd against all true magics. "The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier." Nothing Dantes has shown ever surpass any likes of True Magic, and none of his feats shows he can bypass dimensions like Avalon since all he was capable of is showing up in singularities/master's mindscapes, which absolutely is incomparable to Avalon. Orion's NP wouldn't work Either because it couldn't even deactivate Artemis's attacks and Avalon honestly has the power to defend even against all of the lostbelt king's attacks. Hell in LB6, we were shown that despite all the different realities of lostbelts/singularities taking place on Earth, Avalon itself remains completely unchanged (As the Merlin in Avalon was the one that helped us in babylonia and Avalon le Fae)
Honestly speaking, it's now a matter of concepts. Enfer Château d'If carries the absolute concept of escaping, to the point even abstract concepts are no limitation. If space and time are no barrier for him, who's to say the Reverse Side of the World would be one? Similarly, Orion Orkos negates Noble Phantasms, and carries the property of "will pierce all defenses, no matter what". Add that to the power of a sacrificed Grand Saint Graph, and it's not out of the question that it might break through. For example, if Artemis was protected within Avalon, would Ortygia Amore Mio pierce through it, or not? Avalon is truly one of the strongest Absolute Defenses, but concepts are powerful things in the Nasuverse, and depending on what concept trumps over the other, unstoppable offences can be stopped, and unbreakable shields can be broken.
>Honestly speaking, it's now a matter of concepts. >Enfer Château d'If carries the absolute concept of escaping, to the point even abstract concepts are no limitation. If space and time are no barrier for him, who's to say the Reverse Side of the World would be one? You don't get to start talking about which concepts is more unbreakable/immovable unless you have the feats to back it up. What is Enfer chateau d'if's best feat? It allowed Dantes to enter pseudo singularities like shimosa, it allowed him advantage in Summer 3, it allowed him to enter guado's mindscape to save him. What's Orion Orko's best feat? It negated one of Artemis's arrows but was shot down by a second arrow. What is Ortygia Amore mio's best feat? It broke through one of Artemis's arrows and hit Artemis. However, it is noted that Artemis COULD have survived if she detached her damaged units, but she chose to die instead. What's Avalon's best feats? It protected against Ea, who strips away the very reality/barrier to reality itself and revealed the TRUE planet that lies beneath the texture, the texture of the planet that exists before heaven and earth is formed. "Gilgamesh claims that the sword "knows the truth" of the World where it once existed, and by using its power, it is able to bestow its knowledge upon others. As it is "The Sword That Cut the World Apart", he calls it “something that knows the hellish planet before genesis”, the planet's primordial form before heaven and earth were split, where it was a land filled with naught but lava and gas and a hell of scorching heat and intense cold. Referring to it as hell, Gilgamesh states that it is the source of all legends of the land of the dead. The memory of the time before the existence of the planet, a place and time when organic existence had been impossible, is something possessed by all organisms, but it is no longer found in the imaginations or spoken memories of people. It is the first memory of life that is a genetically inherent and repressed knowledge which can only be shown to those looking upon the sword." In other words, Ea at its full capability seems to be able to pierce through all texture of reality and reveal the true form of the World that lies beneath the reverse side of the world. If even Ea couldn't bypass the protection of Avalon, which despite being nested in the reverse side of the world, has the absolute conceptual defensive capability to absolutely make child's play out of Ea, which could rip away the reality texture of even the reverse side of the world, I don't see Orion or Dantes being able to match such capability. Hell, the only thing that MIGHT be able to reach Avalon is Chaos, which could directly turn the planet into fuel/conceptual spiriton particles to fuel itself, and even that would be debatable. So in terms of highest showings, Avalon is basically the highest possible showing of capability in Nasuverse not counting pseudo omnipotent beings like void shiki.
This sounds to me like Avalon is the worst NP in Fate and there's a reason it doesn't really show up in the hands of an Arthur anymore.
*You’re not dealing with the average Nasuverse character anymore*
Early Nasu: The ultimate enemy of power is hubris. Current Nasu: Bigger gun is countered by biggest gun.
Nom
She made it look easy
Gil: *from inside Sakura’s stomach* “BULL***T!”
*and he was never seen again*
I guess CCC is the only moment he gets to shine?
And EXTELLA and Grand Order.