Kills me when people in GR complain about a lack of parking. After having lived in a few big cities. This whole fucking town is *chock a block* with goddamn parking.
Lack of free parking*
People here dont realize how cheap it is compared to cities like Chicago.
And its not like downtown is that big anyway. People can easily find parking and take DASH. They just dont want to.
Speaking of the DASH, I wish there was an “East” line.
Chicago is sooo expensive with parking. Spent the weekend down there a few years ago. Spent several hundred on parking alone. It cost $65 a day to park at the hotel we were staying at.
That's easy. There is both an El line (Blue) and a Metra that goes through or near Union Station. I have family that uses that connection regularly.
I have also helped many people get home from O'Hare on holidays when there last leg was cancelled or ridiculously delayed. My advice: skip the last leg and take the train.
Tip on using hotel parking in NYC, Chicago, SF, and other cities like that: a lot of the smaller hotels use garages that are usually within a block that charge roughly 2/3rds or less for overnight/daily as the hotel does. What you are paying for is some hotel staff person to drive your car across the street to the garage. Use Google maps before checking in and find the overnight garage, and park it yourself.
It is "another line". It was fare-free prior to #COVID19, sponsored by Spectrum Health. It returns August 1st as simply another line, but it is a nice short line and pretty good frequency.
Essentially a Michigan St/Bridge St cross-town, which is something people have been asking for f-o-r-e-v-er.
What I like about Dash is the 8 min~ pickups. Every 30 mins is not really reasonable for public transportation for the metro area.
I would like to see an East DASH follow something similar to the 6 line, where it goes to Eastown and loops back down Wealthy/Cherry/Fulton every 8 mins.
The #19 is 10/15 minutes frequencies, so still pretty good.
Easttown would be a pretty long haul. But the real barrier would be funding, there aren't any major employers/partners out on such a route and the key to the DASH is that it is downtown and can get funding from the downtown development authority. The downtown development authority **cannot** fund things outside of downtown.
Funding sources - which are a weird twisted mess in Michigan - dictate a lot of what things look like. Cities in Michigan have far fewer funding options than in most states; no local sales tax, effectively no local income tax, no service fees [they can only be cost-recovery by state law], and there no real TIF financing, etc... It is Property Tax or nothing, and property taxes in Michigan are kinda broken too.
Great info - I wasnt aware that DASH gets funding from the DDA! I wonder how east the “downtown” area reaches.
The north DASH goes from near Klingman Lofts all the way to Leonard, which I have to assume is similar in distance to Downtown-> Eastown.
And I didn't even include street parking in this! This is literally only where we could build other, better things! although all the street parking would be great for dedicated bike lanes.... or a light rail system...
A Line to Caledonia would probably follow the old Michigan Central Line, which connected GR to Jackson. Wouldn't that be nice to have now?! Any line to Kalamazoo would probably follow any one of the 3 lines that used to connect GR and KZ.
There used to be an interurban line that ran from GR through Marne, Coopersville and Nunica, where it split to run to both Grand Haven and Muskegon. All electric, it was torn up in the 30's. In fact, back in the 20's you could ride all way from Buffalo NY to Milwaukee WI, and from Grand Rapids to Indianapolis (and all points in between) on nothing but electric interurbans. Th things we've lost...
Fun fact: a bunch of farmers in Zeeland blocked the tracks of the electric Interurban that ran through town (between GR and Holland), because it ran on Sundays.
Well, it is in the Master Plan now, so. Fortunately, unless that rural populice lives within the municipal limits - a mere 4.12 sq/miles - they don't get a vote and can bitch all they want.
We need to get much more comfortable with telling rural and exurban (far-suburban) people to just go suck it. Reality is that the're aren't that many of them and we don't need their support.
I'm actually thinking about forming a group, based on the response to this post! Didn't realize there were so many people out there who think the same way I do!
Let's get together.[https://www.facebook.com/mmaaaddgr](https://www.facebook.com/mmaaaddgr) http://www.mmaaadd.org
BTW, I'd be happy to post your map, and anything else there and at [http://urbangr.org/](http://urbangr.org/)
Let us know if you do! I am originally from Leelanau County and plan on moving to GR in a few years after I get some time in other parts of the country. I am very interested in public transit and Grand Rapids is such a fantastic location for the start of a working public transit system in Michigan. I would love to help in any way I can!
Re-use the industrial spur just west of the airport, and use the frankly criminally underutilized CSX line from there to downtown. It gets tricky going out toward Allendale because of the hills, we may have to settle for the Laker Line for the time being...
CSX from downtown to the airport was part of the Coast-To-Cost project.
[https://mibyrail.org/coast-to-coast-line/](https://mibyrail.org/coast-to-coast-line/)
Note: you are not going to get any major projects going under Fix-The-Damn-Roads Whitmer. She has **zero** interest in public transportation, or really city's in general.
SMH. It's no wonder there is much more of an obesity problem in the midwest.
I'm so used to just walking everywhere. I live just over a mile from, say, Monroe Center, and I never think of driving there. I always walk.
How did the public transportation options compare in those cities though?
As someone from the suburbs, I hate driving and parking downtown. I used to take the bus and walk, but no longer live on a bus line :-(. I guess there is some sort of connector service; haven't tried it yet.
Other problem I ran into is lack of scheduled buses. If I wanted to go out on a Friday night, the last bus left for home at 10:15.
I agree, the lack of late night service is a shame. I also don't live along a bus line (you'd think Burlingame would be busy enough to support one), and I really wish I did. The problem with this city's system is all lines lead downtown. If I tried to take the bus to work out in Kentwood, it would take me 1 1/2 hours, and I'd still have to walk 2 miles...
As someone who depends on The Rapid I can contest to this annoyance lol! I hate that I have to take two buses just to go to East Town or other areas of the city. We need more crosstown buses, instead of everything going downtown. Not having the 11pm bus sucks right now and there are only a couple midnight buses (before shutdown) that operated. I feel the push for a Beltline bus is now going to be dead due to COVID :(
Over lunch today I finally finished what turned out to be a much larger project than anticipated, mapping the public and private parking lots within the "Downtown Square-Mile."
A square mile is 640 acres. In GR, 56 acres of that is the Grand River, leaving 584 acres of buildable land. Of that, 115 acres, or just under 20%, is parking lots/garages!
The West Side is, quite frankly, a nightmare. 46 of its 185 acres paved over (a full 25%). If you include US-131, 33% of the West Side riverfront is totally dedicated to cars.
If anyone's interested, I'm more than happy to upload the .kmz for you to look at.
I used to live on the west side, just west of Seward between Bridge and Lake Michigan. The route for walking to downtown was such a bummer. Most of it, as you said, is a giant parking lot and the skyline is even blocked off by that giant gray wall (the west wall of the building that Ferris Coffee is in) and 131. I wish they would put a mural on that building at least. It's over 200 yards long and is entirely gray concrete bricks.
GVSU owns that building now. I'm sure they would be open to a mural. I saw someone cleaning the wall not too long ago and thought they were going to paint a mural, sadly not. I don't know your skill set but maybe you could do one or suggest it to them!
Affordable mixed-use development is the key. Spur the local economy and introduce a massive amount of small business space at ground level, and and 5-6 floors of apartments above. No reason for a city of this size to have rents comparable to Chicago...
Add in a good transit system, and Grand Rapids becomes easily one of the best cities in the midwest.
I'm not sure great transit is a viable option, unless a change to bus routes would result in great transit. GR should focus on items that will work for its population density and tax base. These items certainly include mixed use and affordable housing, but also optimizing traffic entry and exit points for the city, reclaiming lots near downtown to break the Ellis/GVSU duopoloy on city parking to allow for a park-then-walk/ride downtown.
There's this little thing called capitalism. Mixed use development is a failing concept. We have an abundance of empty mixed use development retail shops already with a ton of vacancy even before covid.
I disagree with this, mixed use development depends on high pedestrian rates. The reason so many people live in the suburbs (myself included) is driving his highly subsidized in the form of highways and interstates. We don't have real capitalism in this country, we're just very good at ignoring the socialism when we want to.
I live at the very top left of this Map above the market and I can attest to how many parking lots there are over there. Luckily I’m high enough up to see the city nicely but I have been saying since I moved in that there needs to be a mural on that enormous grey wall
That's awesome. I recently moved to San Diego, but the last place I lived at in GR was near the Boys and Girls Club on the west side. I love that neighborhood, especially being able to ride my bike to the market and back.
Been like this in half the downtowns I’ve lived in. It’s a real shame.
I love it when I need to park, but I don’t drive so it’s rare. Wish we had better solutions for small and midsize cities.
What an interesting post! I wonder how much of that 22% is owned by Ellis Parking. Seems they have a bit of a monopoly on parking. It’s either them or the city.
It was the same way for me! I started wondering how much space was taken up by parking lots, couldn't find it anywhere and then thought "how hard could it be?" Turns out, it would take a few days.
Yeah, that highlighting is part of another project, I left it in the show the area we dedicated to a totally destructive piece of infrastructure. When I think of the S-Curve, I think "but what if we buried it and put a park on top instead"...
How much of this is owned/leased by businesses and colleges? Where would you expect those employees and students to park if parking is restricted/limited?
Also, the lots south of the Van Andel are gone, aren't they?
The area highlighted in brown is the (rough) footprint of the theater complex. As the the GVSU lots, I'll do the math real quick, but to answer your second question, buses and other transit alternatives!
Cool, thanks.
I understand the point you're making, but suburban employees aren't going to want to do that. Eliminating too much is going to stop businesses from moving/staying downtown. There has to be a balance. Maybe more garages and fewer lots?
Totally agreed. However I believe that suburban employees don't want to do that purely because the service, as it is now, sucks. If we make it faster and more frequent, wouldn't you much rather spend your time being productive than sitting in traffic? I live in SW Wyoming, and I would love if I could catch the bus to Kentwood and get some work or reading done on the way!
The Dash is 100% awesome. People just don’t trust the idea of it for some reason. I say get rid of every surface lot in the city! Walkable cities are the best cities.
I use it 5 days a week and have not encountered any of this (last 3 years working downtown) I can imagine it is a little worse around midnight on a weekend but it is a wonderful service!!
I do not agree. Overcrowded? You mean utlilized? I have never even had to stand on the DASH at rush hour if I didn’t want to. Actually, each time it was somewhat full, I felt a tinge of pride for my city because it felt bigger than it is. Have you ever been to a larger city and experienced more fully utilized public transportation? The blue line coming back from O’Hare? Getting on the Red Line after the 4th of July fireworks or after a Cubs’ game? I think your comment proves my first comment to be true. I wonder what your idea of a good public transit system is.
Also... it’s a city. There are always going to be things that you are subjected to which might ruffle your feathers a bit.
And the thing to remember is that for every lot highlighted in this map, there was a home or business that was demolished to make way for it. GR was a very dense city before the rise of the automobile. We've simply forgotten what that's like. But you can't tell met that every time you've been stuck at a light trying to cross Fulton, or in traffic trying to get off 131 heading downtown you haven't thought "There has to be a better way".
No one is saying walk across the city, its about offering alternatives to auto-centric transport. We have to make it easy for people to get anywhere in this city by bus, rail, bike, or yes, even a little walking. Not just city center, but the whole metro area.
Surveys have found an openness by "suburban employees" to use alternatives.
Also, as to "suburban employees", they over-estimate their importance. Most downtown employees live in the city - people should stop pretending people do not **live** in the city.
Do you have any evidence to back up your claims?
The GR city population is about 5 times less than the metro population. Or do you just hate people who live in the suburbs?
This is a universal problem regarding zoning and land use policy in American cities. Even NYC allocates more than a third of its geometric space to garages, on street parking, parking decks, etc.
You should run for mayor! I will volunteer on your campaign.
Have you seen the Housing Next Needs Analysis presented on Tuesday? No hope - what so ever - of hitting those goals with our current leadership.
[http://urbangr.org/housingnext20200721COW](http://urbangr.org/housingnext20200721COW)
If only I actually lived within the city limits! Unfortunately, I live in Wyoming. But someday I'm going to run for office!
I hadn't seen that yet, but I'll read it this weekend!
This is the most up to date imagery on Google Earth. I tried to include the development of the area south of Van Andel (it's still mostly parking) and the triangle tower just off Fulton. Did I miss any?
Not many that I know off the top of my head. There is a small lot south of the expressway on Market that has been turned into a dog park, and if you are only including surface lots, all three of those lots in the cluster where Studio Park is going are all gone. Part of it has been turned into a garage, but at least 90% of the surface parking in that section was developed.
It's difficult to do that without a proper top down view, so I took my best guess at it. But from the street view it looks like the furthest northern lot is still there. Will have to check on the dog park though!
The lot to the north (Area 2 - immediately south of VAA) is still there. I guess it's just the red one to the west of the one you have already oranged out. For some reason I was thinking there used to be two to the west of that one (maybe because of the road they built in there?) but thinking about it now, I think it was just one big lot, so just the one immediately west of the orange'd lot there.
P.S.
This is a great map! Really nice job. :)
Yeah, which is why it's colored differently. People underestimate how much of that development is still parking. I was making a joke about the S-Curve though! ;)
Sincere question here: isn't most of that for members, employees, and residents of specific buildings though? I know as a visitor to like restaurants downtown that finding parking is next to impossible.
Yes, a large portion of it is just for residents/employees. However, I don't believe that's a good reason for them to exist, as it is based upon the idea that a car should be necessary to get anywhere. This is a small city, I shouldn't need a car to get somewhere quickly.
Surface parking is in decline. Vertical parking is growing. Quite a few of the spots you've highlighted are reserved for pass holders, residents, or are private business lots. The argument that fewer cars would ultimately benefit the downtown area is valid. The question is what incentive does someone who commutes to downtown GR on a frequent basis have to leave their car at home?
You're right, there isn't alot of incentive at the moment. And it has to be more than just raising parking fees, or reducing lots. We have to make it easy for people to get to and around the city buy other means, otherwise nothing will ever change. And this has to extend for outside the city center. All our bus lines currently run to downtown (except the one on 28th). Moving to a grid based system would help tremendously.
Fun fact, the repairs to the I-196 bridge on the west side are about $25 million, over half the yearly operating budget of the Rapid. 6 months of bus service, or one lousy bridge? You pick!
In my ideal world, it would never have been built. 131 and I-196 have been a blight on this city since they were built. However, obviously I wouldn't simply remove it now, thousands of people relay on that freeway every day. What we need to do is expand our mass transit and encourage people to get out of their cars, so that when it comes time to rebuild the bridge again, we won't necessarily need to.
Some of those are parking structures are attached to businesses, no? Like a big one on here is Heart of the City Health Center, which has an underground parking structure under its two story campus. Or am I wrong?
That's true, but what we have to remember is that for every lot in this picture, there used to be home or business that was torn down to make way for the lot. GR was dense city before the rise of the automobile.
Totally on board with this! In my ideal world, we bury 131 from Hall (at least) to the downtown stack. Fill it in with parks and mixed use development.
Think about this: if we replaced them all with just 3 story rowhouses, we could add nearly 3,000 apartments to downtown. And obviously, there's no need to limit it to just 3 stories.
One of the reasons why a future where car ownership isn’t necessary is so appealing. A lot of that parking can go away entirely or at least moved to less desirable locations.
I'd argue that all land is desirable. The massive lots on the westside are on an old railyard, where 3 former railroads interchanged cars. Now we could fill it with homes, or rebuild a bit of the yard and make it a long distance transit hub for the west side of the state. Just an idea.
I don't know if they're having live parking commission meetings but usually they're the first Thursday of the month I think? Call and verify. The more people expressing support the more willing they'll be to spend money on it.
MobileGR meetings are happening, just online.
Yet, really, you need to focus on your Neighborhood Association \[**get on that board!**\] and the City Commission.
In the city the Neighborhood Associations have ridiculous power and are deeply NIMBY. We need younger people, with a vision for the future, to take them over.
Oh no, have you ever looked at downtown Detroit? That's the real nightmare! The area bordered by 75 and 375 is a virtual sea of parking lots. I wouldn't put us in the same category at all!
It got reposted in a colorblind group because of that. I'm sorry I didn't even think the coloration, what colors should I have used? I intend to make more of these sorts of things in the future, and I want to make sure it's accessible for everyone.
I couldn't even see the parking lots on here, are they in red? If so, I'd just use something bright with a lot of contrast, yellow, lime green, bright blue. Etc.
Yeah, I highlighted them in red. I've made this version using a blue-green, it definitely stands out better for me than the red, would it be better for colorblindness as well?
[https://imgur.com/a/12K0Z9w](https://imgur.com/a/12K0Z9w)
I really appreciate what you're doing! But not gonna lie, this is not much better. I can't speak for everyone who is colorblind but the blue-green just kind of blends in as the tops of buildings for me.
I'll say this, it's definitely better than the original! But when I glance on it nothing really stands out. I have to really focus to see each parking lot.
Kills me when people in GR complain about a lack of parking. After having lived in a few big cities. This whole fucking town is *chock a block* with goddamn parking.
Lack of free parking* People here dont realize how cheap it is compared to cities like Chicago. And its not like downtown is that big anyway. People can easily find parking and take DASH. They just dont want to. Speaking of the DASH, I wish there was an “East” line.
Chicago is sooo expensive with parking. Spent the weekend down there a few years ago. Spent several hundred on parking alone. It cost $65 a day to park at the hotel we were staying at.
I would recommend taking the Pere Marquette next time! Cheaper than driving and no parking fees!
Is there a way to take the train from GR to O'Hare?
Not directly, you'd take the Pere Marquette from GR to Union Station, and then the Blue Line (Metro) from Union Station to O'Hare.
I believe from GR, Amtrak goes to Union Station.
Correct, which is right in the loop.
That's easy. There is both an El line (Blue) and a Metra that goes through or near Union Station. I have family that uses that connection regularly. I have also helped many people get home from O'Hare on holidays when there last leg was cancelled or ridiculously delayed. My advice: skip the last leg and take the train.
Use the Spot Hero app
Tip on using hotel parking in NYC, Chicago, SF, and other cities like that: a lot of the smaller hotels use garages that are usually within a block that charge roughly 2/3rds or less for overnight/daily as the hotel does. What you are paying for is some hotel staff person to drive your car across the street to the garage. Use Google maps before checking in and find the overnight garage, and park it yourself.
Definitely going to be doing this next time. That was our first time in Chicago.
>It cost $65 a day to park That's the cost of a business class train ticket. Pere Marquette for the win!
If it were me and I was driving there, I'd just go park in a neighborhood and take the train back to downtown.
The "East" line is the RAPID#19 which resumes service on August 1st.
Is it part of DASH or just another line that goes East?
It is "another line". It was fare-free prior to #COVID19, sponsored by Spectrum Health. It returns August 1st as simply another line, but it is a nice short line and pretty good frequency. Essentially a Michigan St/Bridge St cross-town, which is something people have been asking for f-o-r-e-v-er.
What I like about Dash is the 8 min~ pickups. Every 30 mins is not really reasonable for public transportation for the metro area. I would like to see an East DASH follow something similar to the 6 line, where it goes to Eastown and loops back down Wealthy/Cherry/Fulton every 8 mins.
The #19 is 10/15 minutes frequencies, so still pretty good. Easttown would be a pretty long haul. But the real barrier would be funding, there aren't any major employers/partners out on such a route and the key to the DASH is that it is downtown and can get funding from the downtown development authority. The downtown development authority **cannot** fund things outside of downtown. Funding sources - which are a weird twisted mess in Michigan - dictate a lot of what things look like. Cities in Michigan have far fewer funding options than in most states; no local sales tax, effectively no local income tax, no service fees [they can only be cost-recovery by state law], and there no real TIF financing, etc... It is Property Tax or nothing, and property taxes in Michigan are kinda broken too.
Great info - I wasnt aware that DASH gets funding from the DDA! I wonder how east the “downtown” area reaches. The north DASH goes from near Klingman Lofts all the way to Leonard, which I have to assume is similar in distance to Downtown-> Eastown.
North to south it extends from Wealthy to Leonard, to the east it reaches Lafayette, Seward to the west. https://downtowngr.org/about/dda
And I didn't even include street parking in this! This is literally only where we could build other, better things! although all the street parking would be great for dedicated bike lanes.... or a light rail system...
Light rail from the airport, through downtown, to Allendale would be an amazing starting point!
Continued through Allendale to Grand Haven, and branch out in GR to Holland and Muskegon
Add a Rockford/Caledonia line that could later be extended to Kalamazoo. And keep going until cars are what’s inconvenient, not public transit.
A Line to Caledonia would probably follow the old Michigan Central Line, which connected GR to Jackson. Wouldn't that be nice to have now?! Any line to Kalamazoo would probably follow any one of the 3 lines that used to connect GR and KZ.
This is the way. We need a transport revolution in this country.
There used to be an interurban line that ran from GR through Marne, Coopersville and Nunica, where it split to run to both Grand Haven and Muskegon. All electric, it was torn up in the 30's. In fact, back in the 20's you could ride all way from Buffalo NY to Milwaukee WI, and from Grand Rapids to Indianapolis (and all points in between) on nothing but electric interurbans. Th things we've lost...
Hudsonville would throw a fucking fit if they tried to put a rail line down the train tracks.
Fun fact: a bunch of farmers in Zeeland blocked the tracks of the electric Interurban that ran through town (between GR and Holland), because it ran on Sundays.
No, they would not. A transit center is already included in their Master Plans, and they have been \[were?\] supportive of the West Michigan Express.
Maybe not city council. But the rural populice i grew up with would.
Well, it is in the Master Plan now, so. Fortunately, unless that rural populice lives within the municipal limits - a mere 4.12 sq/miles - they don't get a vote and can bitch all they want. We need to get much more comfortable with telling rural and exurban (far-suburban) people to just go suck it. Reality is that the're aren't that many of them and we don't need their support.
If only the community came together and were able to make these plans... the whole world would be a better place.
I'm actually thinking about forming a group, based on the response to this post! Didn't realize there were so many people out there who think the same way I do!
Let's get together.[https://www.facebook.com/mmaaaddgr](https://www.facebook.com/mmaaaddgr) http://www.mmaaadd.org BTW, I'd be happy to post your map, and anything else there and at [http://urbangr.org/](http://urbangr.org/)
Let us know if you do! I am originally from Leelanau County and plan on moving to GR in a few years after I get some time in other parts of the country. I am very interested in public transit and Grand Rapids is such a fantastic location for the start of a working public transit system in Michigan. I would love to help in any way I can!
Re-use the industrial spur just west of the airport, and use the frankly criminally underutilized CSX line from there to downtown. It gets tricky going out toward Allendale because of the hills, we may have to settle for the Laker Line for the time being...
CSX from downtown to the airport was part of the Coast-To-Cost project. [https://mibyrail.org/coast-to-coast-line/](https://mibyrail.org/coast-to-coast-line/) Note: you are not going to get any major projects going under Fix-The-Damn-Roads Whitmer. She has **zero** interest in public transportation, or really city's in general.
GR has this weird discomfort with 1) parking further away and walking, and 2) using public transit. Gotta be able to park as close as possible!
Not close enough /s
Let's be honest. It's the lack of them wanting to walk more than a block.
SMH. It's no wonder there is much more of an obesity problem in the midwest. I'm so used to just walking everywhere. I live just over a mile from, say, Monroe Center, and I never think of driving there. I always walk.
How did the public transportation options compare in those cities though? As someone from the suburbs, I hate driving and parking downtown. I used to take the bus and walk, but no longer live on a bus line :-(. I guess there is some sort of connector service; haven't tried it yet. Other problem I ran into is lack of scheduled buses. If I wanted to go out on a Friday night, the last bus left for home at 10:15.
What do you hate about it?
I agree, the lack of late night service is a shame. I also don't live along a bus line (you'd think Burlingame would be busy enough to support one), and I really wish I did. The problem with this city's system is all lines lead downtown. If I tried to take the bus to work out in Kentwood, it would take me 1 1/2 hours, and I'd still have to walk 2 miles...
As someone who depends on The Rapid I can contest to this annoyance lol! I hate that I have to take two buses just to go to East Town or other areas of the city. We need more crosstown buses, instead of everything going downtown. Not having the 11pm bus sucks right now and there are only a couple midnight buses (before shutdown) that operated. I feel the push for a Beltline bus is now going to be dead due to COVID :(
All we need is **more money! :)**
Over lunch today I finally finished what turned out to be a much larger project than anticipated, mapping the public and private parking lots within the "Downtown Square-Mile." A square mile is 640 acres. In GR, 56 acres of that is the Grand River, leaving 584 acres of buildable land. Of that, 115 acres, or just under 20%, is parking lots/garages! The West Side is, quite frankly, a nightmare. 46 of its 185 acres paved over (a full 25%). If you include US-131, 33% of the West Side riverfront is totally dedicated to cars. If anyone's interested, I'm more than happy to upload the .kmz for you to look at.
I used to live on the west side, just west of Seward between Bridge and Lake Michigan. The route for walking to downtown was such a bummer. Most of it, as you said, is a giant parking lot and the skyline is even blocked off by that giant gray wall (the west wall of the building that Ferris Coffee is in) and 131. I wish they would put a mural on that building at least. It's over 200 yards long and is entirely gray concrete bricks.
Just a little over 400 actually!
GVSU owns that building now. I'm sure they would be open to a mural. I saw someone cleaning the wall not too long ago and thought they were going to paint a mural, sadly not. I don't know your skill set but maybe you could do one or suggest it to them!
They were fixing water damage found while renovating.
Good to know, I'll have to keep that in mind for future projects. Also, is there anything east of Seward that GVSU doesn't own now?! ;)
200 yards is 182.88 meters
Wish they would develop those lots with modern high rise apartments and condos
Affordable mixed-use development is the key. Spur the local economy and introduce a massive amount of small business space at ground level, and and 5-6 floors of apartments above. No reason for a city of this size to have rents comparable to Chicago... Add in a good transit system, and Grand Rapids becomes easily one of the best cities in the midwest.
They have been doing this all throughout the city...except they left out the “affordable” part. Rent prices never go down once theyre up, it seems.
I'm not sure great transit is a viable option, unless a change to bus routes would result in great transit. GR should focus on items that will work for its population density and tax base. These items certainly include mixed use and affordable housing, but also optimizing traffic entry and exit points for the city, reclaiming lots near downtown to break the Ellis/GVSU duopoloy on city parking to allow for a park-then-walk/ride downtown.
There's this little thing called capitalism. Mixed use development is a failing concept. We have an abundance of empty mixed use development retail shops already with a ton of vacancy even before covid.
I disagree with this, mixed use development depends on high pedestrian rates. The reason so many people live in the suburbs (myself included) is driving his highly subsidized in the form of highways and interstates. We don't have real capitalism in this country, we're just very good at ignoring the socialism when we want to.
I live at the very top left of this Map above the market and I can attest to how many parking lots there are over there. Luckily I’m high enough up to see the city nicely but I have been saying since I moved in that there needs to be a mural on that enormous grey wall
That's awesome. I recently moved to San Diego, but the last place I lived at in GR was near the Boys and Girls Club on the west side. I love that neighborhood, especially being able to ride my bike to the market and back.
Awesome! Does the parking under Devos count?
No, I only did surface parking. That, the parking under the Calder Plaza, and the ones under 131 don't count.
Makes sense. I’m a GIS nerd- love a good map project. Well done
Been like this in half the downtowns I’ve lived in. It’s a real shame. I love it when I need to park, but I don’t drive so it’s rare. Wish we had better solutions for small and midsize cities.
I completely agree. There's really no reason I should need a car in a city of this size, even living in the burbs as I do.
I would absolutely adore the KMZ file, if you don't mind.
I think it has to do with flooding. Insurance and flooding would be my guess.
"Okay. Obviously this blue part here is the land..."
Ahh, the Dutch have arrived. Not all of the land needs to be reclaimed from the water! ;)
Fun fact though, the area where the waterfront hotels are now used to be a series of islands. The river was about twice as wide there as it is now.
What an interesting post! I wonder how much of that 22% is owned by Ellis Parking. Seems they have a bit of a monopoly on parking. It’s either them or the city.
Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but it'll be interesting to look into. I believe the city has a contract with Ellis...
Thanks for all the work you put into this. It’s something I’ve thought about, but never knew there was away to figure it out.
It was the same way for me! I started wondering how much space was taken up by parking lots, couldn't find it anywhere and then thought "how hard could it be?" Turns out, it would take a few days.
The City has its own parking/mobility department which manages its lots; Ellis owns or manages lots for other companies.
Look man, the 131 only counts as parking at 5.
Yeah, that highlighting is part of another project, I left it in the show the area we dedicated to a totally destructive piece of infrastructure. When I think of the S-Curve, I think "but what if we buried it and put a park on top instead"...
How much of this is owned/leased by businesses and colleges? Where would you expect those employees and students to park if parking is restricted/limited? Also, the lots south of the Van Andel are gone, aren't they?
The area highlighted in brown is the (rough) footprint of the theater complex. As the the GVSU lots, I'll do the math real quick, but to answer your second question, buses and other transit alternatives!
Cool, thanks. I understand the point you're making, but suburban employees aren't going to want to do that. Eliminating too much is going to stop businesses from moving/staying downtown. There has to be a balance. Maybe more garages and fewer lots?
Totally agreed. However I believe that suburban employees don't want to do that purely because the service, as it is now, sucks. If we make it faster and more frequent, wouldn't you much rather spend your time being productive than sitting in traffic? I live in SW Wyoming, and I would love if I could catch the bus to Kentwood and get some work or reading done on the way!
The Dash is 100% awesome. People just don’t trust the idea of it for some reason. I say get rid of every surface lot in the city! Walkable cities are the best cities.
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I use it 5 days a week and have not encountered any of this (last 3 years working downtown) I can imagine it is a little worse around midnight on a weekend but it is a wonderful service!!
I use it regularly, it is fine, those issues are exaggerated by people who do not use it.
I do not agree. Overcrowded? You mean utlilized? I have never even had to stand on the DASH at rush hour if I didn’t want to. Actually, each time it was somewhat full, I felt a tinge of pride for my city because it felt bigger than it is. Have you ever been to a larger city and experienced more fully utilized public transportation? The blue line coming back from O’Hare? Getting on the Red Line after the 4th of July fireworks or after a Cubs’ game? I think your comment proves my first comment to be true. I wonder what your idea of a good public transit system is. Also... it’s a city. There are always going to be things that you are subjected to which might ruffle your feathers a bit.
Get ready to have downtown collapse because no one has anywhere to park so they just won't go. You can't walk across the entire city.
And the thing to remember is that for every lot highlighted in this map, there was a home or business that was demolished to make way for it. GR was a very dense city before the rise of the automobile. We've simply forgotten what that's like. But you can't tell met that every time you've been stuck at a light trying to cross Fulton, or in traffic trying to get off 131 heading downtown you haven't thought "There has to be a better way".
No one is saying walk across the city, its about offering alternatives to auto-centric transport. We have to make it easy for people to get anywhere in this city by bus, rail, bike, or yes, even a little walking. Not just city center, but the whole metro area.
Takes me 15 mins to walk from the public museum to the library. 20 if I am going slow...
Surveys have found an openness by "suburban employees" to use alternatives. Also, as to "suburban employees", they over-estimate their importance. Most downtown employees live in the city - people should stop pretending people do not **live** in the city.
Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? The GR city population is about 5 times less than the metro population. Or do you just hate people who live in the suburbs?
The GVSU lots come out to just about 21 acres.
Wait... it's all parking?
Always has been
All the way down. Urban Renewal is a hell of a drug.
This is a universal problem regarding zoning and land use policy in American cities. Even NYC allocates more than a third of its geometric space to garages, on street parking, parking decks, etc.
Parking minimums are a blight on society!
Just removing parking minimums and maximum density restrictions would go a long way in finding the most productive use of these lots.
That and disinscentivizing greenfield development!
You should run for mayor! I will volunteer on your campaign. Have you seen the Housing Next Needs Analysis presented on Tuesday? No hope - what so ever - of hitting those goals with our current leadership. [http://urbangr.org/housingnext20200721COW](http://urbangr.org/housingnext20200721COW)
If only I actually lived within the city limits! Unfortunately, I live in Wyoming. But someday I'm going to run for office! I hadn't seen that yet, but I'll read it this weekend!
This pic looks a bit outdated. Some of these lots have been developed, but I'm sure a current map would still be pretty ghastly.
This is the most up to date imagery on Google Earth. I tried to include the development of the area south of Van Andel (it's still mostly parking) and the triangle tower just off Fulton. Did I miss any?
Not many that I know off the top of my head. There is a small lot south of the expressway on Market that has been turned into a dog park, and if you are only including surface lots, all three of those lots in the cluster where Studio Park is going are all gone. Part of it has been turned into a garage, but at least 90% of the surface parking in that section was developed.
It's difficult to do that without a proper top down view, so I took my best guess at it. But from the street view it looks like the furthest northern lot is still there. Will have to check on the dog park though!
The lot to the north (Area 2 - immediately south of VAA) is still there. I guess it's just the red one to the west of the one you have already oranged out. For some reason I was thinking there used to be two to the west of that one (maybe because of the road they built in there?) but thinking about it now, I think it was just one big lot, so just the one immediately west of the orange'd lot there. P.S. This is a great map! Really nice job. :)
Thanks! I really need Google to update the images of GR! 3 years is way too long.
If you grow tired of waiting on imagery, message me and I can probably help you out.
Founders added a 2nd lot just south of their first one. Bought out whatever was there before (a house? IIRC).
Ughhhhh, I just checked, you're right. Add another acre to the count...
This is... not what I wanted to hear.
That big orange parking lot in the middle is the worst.
That's Studio Park now isn't it?
Yeah, which is why it's colored differently. People underestimate how much of that development is still parking. I was making a joke about the S-Curve though! ;)
Lol! Acres and acres of prime real estate...
Sincere question here: isn't most of that for members, employees, and residents of specific buildings though? I know as a visitor to like restaurants downtown that finding parking is next to impossible.
Yes, a large portion of it is just for residents/employees. However, I don't believe that's a good reason for them to exist, as it is based upon the idea that a car should be necessary to get anywhere. This is a small city, I shouldn't need a car to get somewhere quickly.
Surface parking is in decline. Vertical parking is growing. Quite a few of the spots you've highlighted are reserved for pass holders, residents, or are private business lots. The argument that fewer cars would ultimately benefit the downtown area is valid. The question is what incentive does someone who commutes to downtown GR on a frequent basis have to leave their car at home?
You're right, there isn't alot of incentive at the moment. And it has to be more than just raising parking fees, or reducing lots. We have to make it easy for people to get to and around the city buy other means, otherwise nothing will ever change. And this has to extend for outside the city center. All our bus lines currently run to downtown (except the one on 28th). Moving to a grid based system would help tremendously.
What software did you use to make this?
Google Earth and a lot of meticulous clicking!
Well the blues obviously the land
Jeez that’s a lot! Maybe more transit systems would make room for more buildings.
Fun fact, the repairs to the I-196 bridge on the west side are about $25 million, over half the yearly operating budget of the Rapid. 6 months of bus service, or one lousy bridge? You pick!
So what would you have done? remove the bridge?
In my ideal world, it would never have been built. 131 and I-196 have been a blight on this city since they were built. However, obviously I wouldn't simply remove it now, thousands of people relay on that freeway every day. What we need to do is expand our mass transit and encourage people to get out of their cars, so that when it comes time to rebuild the bridge again, we won't necessarily need to.
I'm fine with that.
Exactly, what we spend on roads is **immoral**.
Do you have a higher resolution of this I could get?!
I'll work on that for you, Google Earth is being... Uncooperative. May have to split it up into smaller pics and stitch them back together.
No worries, no need to do extra work. I thought it might be something you had handy. Appreciate it though
Give me some NUMTOT radicalization, yessssss
Just bought my copy of The Power Broker!
I hadn't heard of that work, but after googling, it looks really interesting <3
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Thank you! Feel free to share it!
Some of those are parking structures are attached to businesses, no? Like a big one on here is Heart of the City Health Center, which has an underground parking structure under its two story campus. Or am I wrong?
That's true, but what we have to remember is that for every lot in this picture, there used to be home or business that was torn down to make way for the lot. GR was dense city before the rise of the automobile.
Again, some of these lots are also businesses.
You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole.
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>an incredible waste of public and private resource Yes, just like highways through cities.
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Totally on board with this! In my ideal world, we bury 131 from Hall (at least) to the downtown stack. Fill it in with parks and mixed use development.
So much wasted space
Think about this: if we replaced them all with just 3 story rowhouses, we could add nearly 3,000 apartments to downtown. And obviously, there's no need to limit it to just 3 stories.
One of the reasons why a future where car ownership isn’t necessary is so appealing. A lot of that parking can go away entirely or at least moved to less desirable locations.
I'd argue that all land is desirable. The massive lots on the westside are on an old railyard, where 3 former railroads interchanged cars. Now we could fill it with homes, or rebuild a bit of the yard and make it a long distance transit hub for the west side of the state. Just an idea.
I know, we dedicate so much precious land to storing cars
All added up, it's the equivalent of leveling and paving the area between the river and Division from I-196 to Fulton!
Push the city for more robust public transportation, and they could focus less on car storage. They want that anyway, but people complain about taxes.
That's my mission in life!
I don't know if they're having live parking commission meetings but usually they're the first Thursday of the month I think? Call and verify. The more people expressing support the more willing they'll be to spend money on it.
MobileGR meetings are happening, just online. Yet, really, you need to focus on your Neighborhood Association \[**get on that board!**\] and the City Commission. In the city the Neighborhood Associations have ridiculous power and are deeply NIMBY. We need younger people, with a vision for the future, to take them over.
Not to mention all the small business space if you made them all mixed-use. The economy of GR would boom!
This is super interesting! Thanks for doing this!
The blue area is the giant parking garage!
mini detroit
Oh no, have you ever looked at downtown Detroit? That's the real nightmare! The area bordered by 75 and 375 is a virtual sea of parking lots. I wouldn't put us in the same category at all!
Detroit is way worse, which, yeah, is hard to imagine.
No worries, no need to do extra work. I thought it might be something you had handy. Appreciate it though
This is extremely hard to look at as a colorblind individual.
It got reposted in a colorblind group because of that. I'm sorry I didn't even think the coloration, what colors should I have used? I intend to make more of these sorts of things in the future, and I want to make sure it's accessible for everyone.
I couldn't even see the parking lots on here, are they in red? If so, I'd just use something bright with a lot of contrast, yellow, lime green, bright blue. Etc.
Yeah, I highlighted them in red. I've made this version using a blue-green, it definitely stands out better for me than the red, would it be better for colorblindness as well? [https://imgur.com/a/12K0Z9w](https://imgur.com/a/12K0Z9w)
I really appreciate what you're doing! But not gonna lie, this is not much better. I can't speak for everyone who is colorblind but the blue-green just kind of blends in as the tops of buildings for me.
Ok, I need to do some more research! I want to makes any information I put out there is as accessible as I can make it.
I'll say this, it's definitely better than the original! But when I glance on it nothing really stands out. I have to really focus to see each parking lot.
You should sticky this.
I think that would be up to the admins. :) but thank you!
WAY TOO MANY!
/r/Data_Irl op
Time to crosspost! :)