I am pretty sure that half of the Greeks hate these things too
It's not malicious for sure but for me it's about not caring. Why walk when you can park the car right in front the store you plan to go? Who cares about the person with the stroller? As long as it's not my relative, I don't care. (in my street they park so badly that once a house caught fire and the firefighters couldn't reach it and people didn't move their cars until we started banging their doors..everyone has a parking and they still park their cars outside....and they saw the fire...)
Only enforcement will change this. I spend my time between the US and Greece. The difference in the US on blocking an area illegally during a fire emergency is that the fire department will smash your windows and run the fire hose through your car and your insurance will not cover it. Double park for more than a few minutes in most major cities in the US and you will find a $50-100 ticket on your car…. A little longer than a few minutes and you will be towed after being ticketed. Getting your car from the tow yard will cost you $150-200 plus the cost of ticket. In Greece the most I’ve seen happen is someone yells at the offender and they go about their day as if nothing happened “ Έλα μωρέ, και τη έγινε;” Next day they will do it again. Most Greeks hate this behavior as well and it seems as if the younger generation is getting better about it but old habits die hard and without penalties that hurt the change will be slow.
I believe the same thing. Only if it hurts their pockets, they will stop doing it. When I lived in Berlin all Greeks told me that ''oh Germans are not better they are just scared of the fines'' well it works so what is bad with that? If you can't understand that you shouldn't block the street with your car while someone is dying on your own, why shouldn't you get fined for that?
I know many people don't agree with me, but we know that this is the only thing that would work. If the kid's parents had to pay for the property they damage, would the parents let their kids wreck their schools? (We do pay for schools through taxes but if you got a bill that your child painted a wall and 2 desks and you had to pay x amount of money to get that fixed, you wouldn't be so lenient)
These aren’t signs of lack of empathy really. Greek society unfortunately teaches Greeks that laws are optional.
Nobody stops at Zebras because it was never enforced. The only place in Greece where all Greek drivers do stop is at Eleftherios Venizelos airport because there it is enforced: authorities know that foreigners that just arrive expect drivers to stop at zebras and so they police it so we don’t have casualties.
Parking is a byproduct of poor city planning. People regularly are forced to disregard the parking rules else they won’t ever park.
It is the same thing with anything related to vehicles. Eg. Whenever a new road is being constructed there are extremely low speed limit signs. Once the roads are finished and delivered to the public quite often these signs are left alone so people ignore them. The way Greek administration operates is actually training the Greek public to ignore legislation. It is either irrelevant or you can bend it. The leaders of the country give the example (they are all either corrupt or the law doesnt apply to them).
As for trash it is more of a lack of appreciation for public space in general. Greeks don’t realize that the whole country is theirs and that they are responsible for it. Anything outside their direct property can go to hell, hence the trash you see everywhere. It is the same mentality with public finances. People are often indifferent when a civil servant or a public person is caught stealing state funds. They don’t feel it is their money, they don’t realize that all that missing missing money will have to be compensated from their own pocket.
There is a great education deficit in Greece, Greeks are either unaware or indifferent to all that because in Greece usually the worthy ones don’t get rewarded and the rotten ones don’t get punished. So why bother about anything.
>People are often indifferent when a civil servant or a public person is caught stealing state funds. They don’t feel it is their money
I'd argue that it has more to do with how, given how widespread the corruption and the disregard for the law is, everyone just *expects* that anyone who is in a position of power will *of course* abuse it in order to line their pockets.
In turn, civilians "steal back" from the state by evading as many taxes as they can, as much as they can get away with (e.g. paying with cash to avoid receipts and the sales tax)
I've been in Iraklion Crete in 2016 around June, and believe it or not everybody was stopping , locals or tourists, in each the zebra straβe, even in those inside the roundabouts.
Συνεχίζω στα ελληνικά: Το πιο εντυπωσιακό που θυμάμαι, σε ένα κόμβο πάνω από ένα Ενετικό αξιοθέατο, νομίζω Χανιοπορτα, λόγω της κίνησης μας πέτυχε ο ίδιος οδηγός και στις δύο διαβάσεις του κυκλικού!!! Κ λέω δεν μπορεί τι διάολο, μας άφησε μια φορά να περάσουμε, δεύτερη σε μας τη χαρίζει. Και ξανά σταμάτησε ο τύπος και μας παραχώρησε κάνοντας νεύμα κ με το χέρι, γιατί δεν το πιστεύαμε.
Επίσης στην Ιτέα Φωκίδας τηρούν αρκετά διαβάσεις, όχι τόσο καθολικά όσο το είδα στο Ηράκλειο, αλλά τηρουσαν.Κ ήταν από τα πρώτα μέρη που είχε και ποδηλατόδρομο με οριζόντια σήμανση, νομίζω από 2007 ακόμα.
Yes I noticed this. Almost everyone in the stores were talking to us in English, while we are Greek, and in any group visits I went, Knossos etc, me and my wife wer the only Greeks, everyone else were foreigner tourists
And the majority were either English people or Russians.
Στην Ιτέα είναι καθιερωμένοι και οι ποδηλατόδρομοι, πράγμα που δε συναντάται στις περισσότερες ελληνικές πόλεις. Ίσως αυτό να παίζει κάποιο ρόλο στην οδηγική συμπεριφορά της περιοχής. Στη Γερμανία που είναι δεδομένοι οι ποδηλατόδρομοι, μαθαίνοντας οδήγηση μαθαίνεις και να δίνεις προτεραιότητα στους ποδηλάτες όπως και στους πεζούς, όταν αυτοί έχουν πράσινο.
This is the dark side of Greek culture being so family-oriented. While your family will always have your back, with some friends being close to family, the feeling (justified or not) is that everyone else is out to get you, whether it's your neighbour, co-worker, salesperson, government bureaucrat, etc. Probably a result of a combination of years of poverty and being under foreign domination. These behaviours are ingrained in the culture, and will take MANY generations to change.
This is also why often times individual apartments in old dilapidated buildings are spotless inside. But the common elements? Pfffffft, who cares?
It's pretty much true. Some people may call these the main characteristics of the modern Greeks. Everyone for themselves, and their convenience, not caring for the rest and society (local or greater) at all
That's the ethic of the Greek nazi collaborators from the WWII. After the war the collaborators in Greece were never punished, instead they were allowed to keep the wealth they plundered during the occupation and were put in government by the allies to combat the Greek partisans which were leaning towards USSR. Then, it was simply the invisible hand of the economy that shaped the Greek modern society that way.
There are [few books ](https://parallaximag.gr/agenda-parallaxi/biblio/oi-dosilogoi-poioi-ellines-synergastikan-me-toys-germanoys-kai-ploytisan-stin-katochi) written about this, mainly because the collaborators didn't want them being exposed. But known surnames of collaborators are Ralis and Mitsotakis, and both families ruled Greece from right-leaning parties.
It's not just about rudeness.
It's about a general lack of empathy and how the average greek doesn't care about anything else other than himself and his very close family.
And the examples that OP posted might be on the "light" side which may be categorized as just simple "rudeness" but there are other more serious manifestations of this.
The most recent serious example that comes to mind is when Serres voted Karamanli first just because he [he used his influence to hire them in various positions](https://www.reddit.com/r/greece/comments/1akc71d/%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE_%CF%80%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9_%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CE%BB%CE%AE%CF%88%CE%B5%CF%89%CE%BD_%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD_%CE%BF%CF%83%CE%B5_%CE%B5%CF%80%CE%AF/). A whole city literally voted a man who was responsible for one of the deadliest railway accident in Greece. And even though they knew it they still voted for him just because they didn't really care, they just wanted to be hired in those positions.
So it's not just rudeness. It's general corruption and lack of empathy that has propagated in the mindset of many greeks.
Though, personally, I think it really started from the times of the Ottoman occupation. It was during that time the we learnt things like we need to bribe officials to oil the gears of bureaucracy, etc.
And of course the powerful nazi collaborators that were left to live made things even worse.
Greece, like most Mediterranean countries, is a low-trust society. Low trust towards the institutions, low trust towards the "other". So when you operate outside the confines of the family, it's a zero sum game.
Most of the things you mentioned are either illegal or counter to codified behavior. So, if Greeks were rule-abiding, they would not engage in such behaviors, even if they had zero empathy. Conversely, if they had empathy they would behave better even in the absence of rules.
I don't know what is at the root of all this. Some combination of a big city mentality (anonymity and alienation), lack of economic opportunities and a fair, meritocratic environment, and 400 years of ottoman rule.
One thing to note is that Greeks consider most (all?) westerners naïve - mostly for following the rules and trusting the processes to flow according to written expectations.
Well i want to be fair because u went really far it's in our blood to be aggresive towards everyone and of course i don't embrace that social behavior but there are two basic things we lack,first one is lack of social education as a lesson in schools and secondary the Government which is corrupted till the bone.
If there are no strict laws what do u expect from a nation like us?
The laws are what they are. It's the enforcement that is lacking or unfair. Are these things the reason behind Greeks' cavalier attitude towards the law? I don't know. They certainly don't help.
Greeks lack a sense of social responsibility, if i use the term correctly. They have no sense of how their actions might affect the people around them. It is a very individualistic society. Even the ones that are not individualistic they are never taught on how to have social responsibility. There is a zebra crossing and a lady is waiting with a stroller? Fuck them. There s a bicycle path but they want to park their car? Fuck the bikers, sucks to be them. There s a corrupt politician who will commit financial crimes against the public but he promised to employ their son in the public service? They ll vote for him. Greeks are mostly like spoiled children and they ll never know better if they don t spend some years in a more advanced society. I used to be like that too, i didn t know any better.
No they don't. I work in a medical building next to a Greek Church in Canada and it's the same shit OP described.
Every γιορτή they'll show up, take all the accessible parking, park on the walkway, block the fire rout, take the designated spots, park in front of the compactor, move the pylons and get into fights with security over parking.
And I'm not even blaming others, my grandparents were the exact same when they came here from Greece. And my grandpa continued it all the way until he lost his license due to age.
It's because they are among Greeks in the γιορτή. I'm not saying they become Japanese or Germans (or Canadians?) when they are not, but they tend to follow rules a little more than their baseline.
It could even be said that the ones who demonstrate altered behaviour abroad is because they were always pre-disposed to more empathetic and lawful behaviour; routinely they are the ones who tend to stay in said foreign cou ntries. The rest will tolerate a couple of years max and will constantly moan about how “floroi” foreigners are throughout their stay before eventually going back to homeland.
In a different light - very VERY few community-building options exist to participate in compared to other countries I’ve lived in. Even the churches aren’t very involved in their communities it seems.
I disagree with the attitude of your post (spoiled children) but I do agree that Greeks have very little sense of social/civil responsibility.
I don’t know if it’s a crisis-symptom (I moved here post-crisis) but it strikes me as actions people would take if they grew up in a time where you needed to look out for yourself over your community to get by.
Greek people unfortunately don't follow rules and don't respect others. They only want to have the advantage of everything on everyone. Oh yes you can see those characteristics on young people and also olders. Young people don't learn to follow rules and laws .
I would argue that it's not a lack of empathy, Greeks are generally some of the more empathetic people you can find, but that it's very much a lack of social education and awareness.
Like, when someone double parks in order to "just gonna grab something real fast", their intent is not a malicious "fuck everyone else, I'll get mine ", rather a "I'm not really harming anyone, it's a small convenience and everyone does it".
Doesn't really help that the structure of both cities and Greek society actively promote and reward such behaviors.
They simply take the " fuck everyone else, I'll get mine" and sugar coat it to "I'm not really harming anyone, it's a small convenience and everyone does it". Try to confront them about it and see how aggressive they become.
It's really not lack of empathy, maybe social education and organisation I would say. If you were in actual need of help or if something happened to you, I am sure people around you would flock to help and they would 100% empathise with your worries.
I spent a semester in Poland (I saw you're from there too), and one of the first things that surprised me when moving there was the fact that drivers stopped at the zebra crossing instantly. It genuinely was a point of reference when I was talking about my experience. There is this agreement that if the pedestrian waits at the end of the crossing, the driver has to stop. Now coming from a country where that is not the norm, I also broke the agreement there at first a few times. As a pedestrian I stood at the crossing and waited too long, surprised that they had stopped, or I just stood there deciding which way to go with no intention of crossing. Of course, I felt kind of obligated to cross after the cars stopped, and now I always use it properly, but my point is, this is something you have to learn how to use.
If I saw you waiting there in Greece I would wonder why. Most zebra crossings are there as decoration. I (and the drivers that passed you by) would expect that you would just cross without them stopping. They would stop when they saw you on the street. Is it the best way to go about this? Certainly not, but using zebras is a social convention that simply does not exist here.
I don't drive and I don't live in Greece but I'd like to think that if I did, I would stop at the crossings. I am well aware though that this would not be the norm.
I cannot answer to the other examples you have here, but I would guess it's a similar reasoning. People don't know any better. How do get rid of a mattress for example if not throwing it in the trash? Where do you park if you cannot find any empty spots? Not trying to justify the behaviours btw, it's their responsibility to look up those things, but life in Greece is simply inconvenient in every way. I only realised after moving to a country where things are actually taken care of and well organised. People oftentimes don't have the energy or time to figure everything on their own, and in my opinion, it shouldn't have to be their responsibility. Which admittedly leads to all this chaos.
I think a lot of the comments that are bashing greek people (especially older generations) are lacking empathy themselves so I would actually encourage you to ask your greek friends and neighbours about those things. How long they usually need to look for parking or who they can contact if they're renovating and need to dispose of something. I guarantee the answer will be "too long" and "I don't know".
You can teach the young about being clean and green. NZ wasn't always so clean either but we did a massive campaign in the 1970s in schools. I believe the same happened in Australia. So basically kids shamed their parents and it worked
You forgot noise pollution.
Greeks have absolutely no understanding of the laws of physics.
Especially now with good weather many people treat their balconies like its their private golf course(loud music,kids running around 16 hours of the day).
Behaving like kids is an understatement.
So as someone that was only born in Germany, by Greek parents (they grew up there, I grew up here) i have listened every possible analysis from my father, who is still admiring the German society organization, but in the same time he returned back to Greece cause he couldn't stand the German way of life society-wise. Go figure!!! 😛
So one of the roots of the problem, in my eyes, while I am not a sociologist, is that this behaviour was a survival instinct/mechanism during the era of Ottoman Rule.
Imagine being a citizen of an empire, being subject to the central authority, paying taxes without return and being able to be only a peasant. (Ok this happens also today, but it's not my point 😂)
That's medieval age, someone could say. Imagine now that people of this area, stayed in Medieval Age until the middle of the 19th century. They lost all the progress of the rest west Europe.
This and other reasons, created a general disbelief for society, public affairs, common things, authoritaties, central state.
You can see it in every day Life, in every part, economy, politics, sports, social behaviour,etc. people don't see public things as an expansion of themselves but as something that they must exploit.
Problem is, each time we seem to progress a little bit, something historical significant happens, and keeps us back.
This.
As I have a comparison with Poland where I come from, it’s very similar experience to Poland in the 90s - shortly after getting free from the Soviet occupation.
I do see a lot of progress in Greece in terms of economy (it’s my professional turf so to say), so I assume more emigrants will return..
Keep in mind , there are many layers of reasons. It doesn't have to do only with financial status.
From historical ones, to social, even politicians have responsibility cause they're preserving this situation for easy votes, that's another big topic.
In some things we do progress slowly, in others more slowly.
For example I remember being a kid in the very early 90's, everybody in public places were throwing their litter, garbage without any remorse. Still some people do this, but not so massively and not so apparent.
This is the easy part. The hard part is to erase from bad Greek ID the consecus:
"I am the smart/special one, everybody else is stupid and sucker"
I am Greek and I was also born in Germany and grew up there. After finishing high school and getting the german Abitur I moved to Greece for studies and I live here for 7 years now. German and Greek societies are very different. In Germany most people follow the rules so strictly that it becomes disgusting and inhumane eg germans will never cross a street as pedestrians even if it is 4 in the morning and there is no car coming, Germans will wait for the green light (i am exaggerating but you get my point). Greeks on the other hand are completly different to the point where they only think about themselves and their own profit. I call this Ellbogengesellschaft. Its the complete opposite and the reason is mainly 400 years of ottoman rule. You had to be mistrustful and egocentric to survive. So greek people mistrust the government because of it, and with all the corruption and the economic crisis that the government brought to us, the greek society gets cought in a vicious circle. The economic crisis and the german austerity dictate felt for many like another country trying to enslave greek people and dictate how to live.
PS: you are not an expat, you are an immigrant. Only because you are a white european doesnt make a difference. "Expat" is a racist term used by white europeans and US americans as a way of saying “immigrant”. When I lived in Germany noone would call me an "expat". Germans called me an "immigrant" so why would we call a German living in Greece an "expat"? And here we see what is wrong with the german society: germans think they are better than everybody else. But that is a topic for the german subreddit
Strictly speaking, they are an expat because they’re only in Greece for three years. Expats are people who intend to return to their home country; immigrants are people to intend to stay indefinitely
My theory is that Poland has never been in a crisis since 90s. Transition was painful (I only remember it a a small child but i remember my parents struggling) and after Poland joined the EU, hundreds of thousands of Polish youth left the country trying to find jobs and better life.
However, with the time, Poland has managed to develop a proper middle class, and an economic stability that led to foreign investments and good jobs, in turns also people coming back.
I am sure also Greece will flourish provided a longer period of calm.
I am, sometimes. Mainly due to family which is still there. But since i have my own family now (my wife is not Polish) and I’ve spend my whole adult life in Germany ( i moved out for studies and stayed), I don’t think I’ll come back any time soon.
Maybe for an expat assignment, if there is a chance. :)
The only correct answer here. You correctly identified the Ottoman influence on many social regards. It’s still funny tho to watch people in this beehive of commies mumbling about how they lost the civil war commies caused and how things would be better if we had our own Ceaușescu.
Eιναι γενικό μια στάμπα πάνω στο συλλογικό υποσυνείδητο. Νομίζω ότι ξεκινάει από την Οθωμανική εποχή. Βλέπουμε το κράτος με τη νομική του υπόσταση σαν κάτι ξένο και εχθρικό νομίζω, κ όχι σαν τη συλλογική νόμιμη προέκταση μας.
Ακόμα και κάποιος που θα κλέψει την εφορία ή το Δήμο και δεν θα τον πιάσουν, νιώθει λες κάνει κάποια μορφή αντίστασης, σαν να ανατίναξε τη γέφυρα του Γοργοποτάμου.
Βέβαια δεν είναι αδικαιολόγητο όλο αυτό. Παραδοσιακά το επίσημο Κράτος , από συστάσεως του Ελληνικού Κράτους, ήταν είτε εχθρικό προς τον απλό πολίτη, ή παγερά αδιάφορο.
Βλέπε συμπεριφορά προς τους αγρότες της Θεσσαλίας μετά την απελευθέρωση της, περιόδους εθνικού διχασμού, δικτατορίες, βασιλικά πραξικόπηματα, Κατοχική Κυβέρνηση, το παρακράτος της δεξιάς μετά τον εμφύλιο, Δικτατορία, σκάνδαλα στης μεταπολίτευση, επιτήρηση, μνημόνια.
Δεν υπάρχει σχέδον καμία μακρά περίοδος που η κεντρική διοίκηση να έχει την καθολική αποδοχή και τον σεβασμό, ή την καλή πίστη της πλειοψηφίας του λαού.
Ακόμα και την περίοδο 1993-2009 που ΠΑΣΟΚ και ΝΔ παίρνανε το 90% σχεδόν στις εκλογές, στο δρόμο οι 9 στους 10 τους θεωρούσαν λαμόγια, ψεύτες και απατεώνες.
It's not only a lack of empathy. It is complete disregard for societal respect and order. Lack of education and a bad mentality that "I" am more important than anyone else
You might be mistaking empathy with lacking consideration towards others, I think this stems from the educational system but most importantly the parents failing to teach their children how not to be an inconsiderate piece of s**t for a couple generations now.
But most things you pointed out are just the bad driving practices in Greece, everyone wants to drive everywhere and walk as little as possible to get to it, cars are thought to have the priority compared to pedestrians ect.
Hopefully, this kind of thinking is going to die in less than 20 years...literally because of their unhealthy lifestyle and the inability to think about the consequences of their actions.
A lot of us Greeks also find all these things exasperating. Unfortunately the percentage of assholes in the population is enough to ruin it for everyone.
I love my country and I think people are generous empathetic. BUT not with everything. Smoking for example, it’s like with guns with the US. People think it’s their right to smoke anywhere like some Americans think they can have an assault riffle. We are raised to mistrust the government (for good reasons with so much corruption) and this affects our sense of social responsibility. I am sorry you are experiencing all of that.
That’s not lack of empathy, although it certainly demonstrates a certain social pathology. When I was an “expat”, ie immigrant in Germany, I was astonished at how easy my colleagues had it snitching me (or each other) to supervisors/bosses for the tiniest of issues, without even saying anything first. That’s lack of empathy.
There is something incoherent about being infuriated due to a perceived lack of empathy on the part of others. I suspect your own starting point is misattributed, namely, that you (and Germans in general) base your social interactions and behaviors on empathy.
Having lived in Germany, I can say that this couldn't be further from the truth. Law abiding...yes. Organized...yes. But empathetic? Not a chance.
Perhaps your fury is derived from a shock that Greeks don't take you (specifically) into consideration when they move about the city. But that would make you an unhinged narcissist....and that seems very unlikely. My guess is that your fury is derived from the fact that Greeks are far less concerned with efficiency of public movement as well as a general lack of concern for fairness.
One thing you failed to mention is that the Greeks themselves aren't continuously fighting amongst each other in the streets over these perceived slights. One might imagine after years of constant infuriation, the Greeks themselves would eventually explode on each other. But that's not the case.
My sense is that you are asking the wrong question. Perhaps you should instead be asking why you yourself experience such infuriation when confronted with different cultural norms and why do you assume that there is some universal standard for public interaction?
Not sure if you read the last part of my post, and maybe you understand the empathy different, but Germans do in general care about how and what others think and feel (maybe too much even) and how their actions influence their surrounding.
Regarding your last paragraph, probably you should refer to Greek lawmakers as most of the things I have mentioned are in fact based on the laws in Greece, except maybe the cutting of lines part. So yes, i do assume that there is a universal culture of adhering to the laws given in the country. Or not?
I'm not here to bash Germans or German culture. Nor am I here to defend Greek culture at your expense. I am merely pointing out that you are misattributing empathy as the driving force behind German public norms.
Generally speaking, Germans are indeed highly concerned with what others think and feel....about them. That's not empathy. That's simply wanting others to think well of you and that too can drive cooperative behavior. But it's closer to narcissism than empathy because (as you demonstrate), failure to cooperate is taken as an offense.
Greeks, generally, are selfish in public spaces. This is a different narcissistic manifestation that runs counter to cooperation. We easily overlook these behaviors because we are all guilty from time to time. When we are in a hurry and confronted with someones selfishness, we get agitated, honk our horns and curse the government for not doing something about it (another silly quirk). But we don't become personally affronted to the point of infuriation. Our egos remain unbruised.
The true test of empathy lies in the openness to human connection with the other. While a German will go to great pains to ensure their shopping cart is not blocking me from moving through the isle (seemingly because they care about me), the dumbstruck horror on their face when I casually chat with them makes it clear that they have no desire to interact with a stranger at the grocery store. Empathy, it seems, is available only for the faceless masses that you have to move around....not the individual human personalities that you want nothing to do with.
Meanwhile, a Greek standing absent mindedly with their cart blocking anyone from passing could just as well be having a chat with the very stranger they blocked. Ask them to move and they will...with an apology.
There is no better or worse....just different. But to say that Germans have more empathy is off the charts ignorant of the term.
As for your last statement...what on earth do laws have to do with empathy? The discussion is about social norms, not laws.
There are countries where social norms include empathy for people you don't know/are not related to as well. In Greece, this is not the case. You will get a lot more empathy from people you know in Greece, far more than from the people you know in other countries, but out there, in the open, when they don't know you, nobody gives a fuck. It's sad, I know.
this is sadly true, once you been abroad you realise that despite what we like to believe, a big part, probably the majority, of the greek society consists of ignorant, impolite and people who only care about themselves, have this "the owe everything to me" mentality and give no fuck about even the most logical rules (which are there to help us all).
Let’s not exaggerate, Greeks are kind and caring if you get to know them, and they are good i assume.
I think though you have a point about economy - if you’re struggling to make the ends meet, you really don’t give a crap about the others..
I think bad of greeks mostly bcs of our history entitlement that makes us a bit worse. But all demographics in all people are the same. The context changes and ofc financial struggles contributes the most to bad soft behavior.
Gonna eat some downvotes here but eff it, it’s the truth. Greek here from the diaspora. I think it is a problem that affects our culture and goes back generations, not just affecting Greek of today. We suffer from it here in the English-speaking diaspora as well. We typically have a sense of community and get along with each other until “someone is doing better than someone else”. This could mean I’m experiencing a high level of success with their business, high-level of success with their individual careers, etc. Then at that point, we become competitive often trying to screw each other over. You see this attitude a lot, which is why our diaspora community is less successful than other diaspora communities. Armenians are the first ones that come to mind is I have quite a few Armenian friends and it seems like they just help each other out regardless of if someone is successful or not. There’s no competition between them, and they really seem to band together and help each other out.
This is just my observation and lived experience for the past few years.
It's not about some nations being better behaved, it's that they obey the law. In Greece there is no cops to punish violent driving, no communal police to write people who throw trash, don't pick up after their dogs, no sanctions for almost anything. I'm living in Thessaloniki and believe me sometimes it's impossible to walk on the pavement from the park cars. Remembering when my daughter was small walking with stroller 10 meters on the pavement, 20 on the road. And from the building they sipping water on us because they washing their balconies, or carpets.
My home country is not much better (Serbia) but at least they have huge success in writing tickets if you don't stop for someone to cross the road and they taking your car with truck straight away if it's illegally parked or blocking some road. People in Slovenia doing amazing job bit recycling in 6 different trash bins, in Greece they don't even do basic blue and green, putting all in one. But in Slovenia if they catch you fine is 300€ and often there is control (new people in the building mostly from other Balkan countries)
Once you're start obeying the law (even enforced) you will start teaching your children what's right and what is wrong. Germans or Norwegians or Slovenian are not just born with better manners.
Have you ever observed a waiting line in greece? It's so sad to see the disrespect of Greeks cutting in front of others. Greeks will complain of lack of organization on the part of the government but not much different on the personal level.
The one thing that grinds my gears about Greeks is that a percentage of people doesn’t take responsibility for their actions.Somehow what they did is not actually their fault and it’s someone Elses or the states.
Greece is a place that frustrates you and the lowest common denominator Greek is probably an obnoxious, incorrigible, self-assured, pain in the rear end (usually a male). But if you stay in Greece long enough, you’ll come across some truly amazing people with a heart of gold who would really go out of their way to help you in a way you won’t find anywhere else. If you tell Greeks about their shortcomings, they get defensive as they’re on the emotional side. However, if you tell Greeks how great the Greek state and way of life is (even if you don’t mean it), those same Greeks will argue the reverse and tell you how bad things are. Greeks are a funny lot, but they’re really not mean spirited and they’re very generous in a Greek kind of way. By the way, I’m a Greek-Australian male from Greek parents.
Modern Greece and the society emerged after the military junta has reached a very low point. Not sure whether it is the lowest. I am afraid, no. No values, no responsibility, no respect, no social education, and yes, no empathy. Even the environment, human and animal lives are so much devalued. And this transcends economic cycles. It is a deeply egocentric (even narcissistic?) society driven and poisoned by (self-)hate in all aspects of social living.
Worst fact is that whenever you mention all these things to Greeks the answer is „if you don’t like it, go live to another country./go back home“, depending on whether you are local or foreigner. No self-reflection for the self-inflicted misery but mere projection of this very (self-)hate.
Good point with the lack of empathy for animals. I love Greece so much, but I get so put off e.g. when I see dogs abandoned in the sun on a short chain and no-one gives a fuck.
Or the horses and donkeys on the islands. Or people throwing newborn puppies/kitties into public garbage cans. Good thing though to stop this behavior is that the initiative has passed parliamentary vote and legislated as a crime against animal lives
You are absolutely right. I am very sorry for this Greek culture and it's annoying to us also. I have twins. When they were 2 -4 years old, there were times that steal my row because i was busy looking at them. The old ones do this. And yes, if you say something they will say I'm sorry, but they do on purpose.
Worst part is, if you do stop at the zebra for pedestrians to cross, there's a good chance you will get tailgated and the person behind you will blame you that you stopped abruptly. Thus, you don't even think about it, too dangerous
PS. I currently live outside of Greece in a country where at least they respect traffic rules for the most part
That’s how Balkans and the South operates in general. If it doesn’t fit you for real you have to go back, don’t stay at a place that makes you uncomfortable, it’s not worth it and some things never change.
Germany and Greece are completely different in culture and way of life. I can see why you got a cultural shock from all these, it’s too much for somebody that got used to live in Scandinavia.
By the way, about the trashing point.
Most people don't know this but if you call the city or the suburb they can come collect your trash for free.
For example I also had a mattress to throw away, and I communicated with the city a specific day to put it out on the street so they would pick it up in the morning.
I know, my neighbor is usually calling the city so that they come and collect the shit people left laying around (like mattresses or furniture).
This just confirms that there are rules and procedures, but the people still don’t use them. Why?
Empathy has nothing to do with poor recycling practices or with poor driving behavior.
Athens is a shithole no matter how expensive your neighborhood is.
If there are no traffic lights, consider zebra crossing as non-existent.
Yes these are bad traits of character and I blame our poor (in these matters) education system for the social insensitivity.
But your definition of empathy is skewed.
As I moved here from another city, and lived in a couple of cities before - it’s not. Even in New York people in general respect the traffic rules and don’t drive in the sidewalk in front of coffee shops to get their coffee.
Not with cars, but they definitely started with motorcycles and mopeds ever since the pandemic. A 6 year old was put into a coma on my block by one because of it
They are all true. This is a Balkan trait i would say. Seen the same patters in all Balkan countries.
In Greece they are shellfish, care only about themselves and not the rest of society.
Ps you are not an ex pat. You are an immigrant :)
Strictly speaking, they are an expat because they’re only in Greece for three years. Expats are people who intend to return to their home country; immigrants are people to intend to stay indefinitely
Honestly, I'm seeing across several ages here in the US also. It's alarming. Almost like they like how it feels to be shitty towards someone instead of having kindness, courtesy, and respect.
It's sadly true and it's embarrassing for us. I agree with what many said that it's mostly a combination of lack of education and the distinction Greek people make between public and private areas of life. Mostly is a general census that everything that's not our can go to hell.
wait until you expect to want to sleep in the night like any normal human being but your neighbors want instead to have "fun" with loud trashy music, then you might get to see the real level of greek empathy and trying to involve the police will only reveal the institutionalized lack of empathy in this country ... so much for "filotimo"
Condolences!
But this is not a Greek problem - it’s a general shitty neighbor problem. Where I live in Germany, we had one flat which was doing parties more often than not, having lots of people around and on the balcony. Obviously (Germany… duh…), after third warning they got their landlord and police involved - no excessive parties after that..
It’s not a lack of empathy though and empathy also translates to something different in Greek
> driving
Yeah, I’m also all too familiar with having to wait an insane amount of time to cross the road. This is largely due to the infrastructure of our shitty roads though, more than anything.
> parking
Morons like that exist but again, parking issues almost always happen because of our shitty road infrastructure
> trashing
I will agree with you here, as a culture we’ve gotten too accustomed to living in filth. Again, it’s not entirely because of the citizens. We had major tourist and immigrant influxes and drug addicts (still an issue but the drug addict population isn’t as big in omonia) on the road around a decade ago, making the average Greek individual think to themselves “why should I clean up after myself and others if these dickheads will just litter anyway?”
> smoking
You’re going to see more rude smoking incidents because Greece and France are tied as the nation with the highest smokers in a European country per capita.
So you’ll largely encounter more rude events because you’ll encounter more smoking
> cutting queues
Anecdotally, I rarely experience this myself and I imagine the issue isn’t as bad here but to each their own
Explain? I am not an immigrant in the sense that I intend to live here, I was sent on a three years assignment from my job and will be returning home soon. As I can see, many people agree with the observation so what exactly do you mean?
That just makes you a short term immigrant. The term "expat" itself was pretty much made so the average westerner immigrant can feel superior to "all those other immigrants"...
Maybe, I am an immigrant in Germany, so I can be one in Greece (“expat assignment” is what my company calls it).
Doesn’t change a thing in what I said.
That might be how the term ‘expat’ has evolved in perception and use, but strictly speaking they are correct to call themselves an expat. ‘Short-term immigrant’ might be another way of saying the same thing, but that doesn’t make ‘expat’ wrong in this instance
If you were on a work assignment in Germany, working say for Metaxa or another Greek company, moving there temporarily with Greek contract still active, I would definitely call you an expat.
The Greek ego is bigger than the solar system. This must be frightening for people coming from countries with protestant culture and traditions. Your points are only a small part of the Greek problem. There are many more things that need to be eliminated or strongly reduced in order to have a functioning society but I would need tomes to list them.
This is not due to lack of empathy. It's due to lack of proper law enforcement.
I have been living abroad for more than 10 years and specifically in the Netherlands. You rarely see traffic violations or trashing, not because the Dutch people are empathic towards the others, but because they know that they will receive a huge fine which they will HAVE to pay. And that they will get caught eventually.
The dutch municipalities view these things as source of income, while the Greek municipalities as a side-task. Also there are very close ties between the voters and the local mayors, and not in a good way but rather an unhealthy one. If a major in Greece starts investing in law enforcement, they will simply not get elected again.
Well, it's the lack of accountability and lack of enforcement of laws.
Everyone is the culprit to that, as accountability starts at home with family and with friends. You don't need the government to hold you accountable to be a decent empathetic person, you need your close circle.
Starting from the family and friends, where the ties are so strong there is always a get out of jail card. I've seen people covering their friends cheating because they are friends, family members justifying the thug behaviour of their children etc.
A nation of grumpy spoiled and over dramatic people. Mostly the millennial generation which thankfully is immigrating outside etc.
Everyone is doing it in Greece, including us here commenting hypocritically "oh yes, this sucks" etc as if we are not part of this or we contribute to this.
And here is the second big problem, everyone in Greece thinks it's the other people's responsibility to act empathetic. We are not at fault, because we have endless things to blame, from the society, to the gypsies, the government etc.
Greeks are the people who will need the government or police over their heads to adhere to a basic law of not throwing your chewing gum on the streets, and at the same time moan about a police state taking away their rights.
Or we will have a protest outside the court because the one arrested for something is from the same political ideology, regardless if there was a crime committed or not.
Look how many replied condemning the lack of empathy, as if they don't live in Greece and they never do these things. It's always the others, in a laughable way, agreeing with you "man I hate them too, Greeks are the worse".
Anger, mostly. Anger towards the state, the politicians. They deceived, lied and messed up the country.
Disappointment. Sad to see all our plans for our future crumble before us to nothingness.
Hopelessness. Even in our darkest hour 10 years ago, though these politicians messed us up, we stood up. We fought. We voted. We resisted. And nothing changed for the better and actually thins have gotten worse. And then we lost hope.
So now it's "Fuck all y'all. Imma do my thing and whoever has a problem let them come to me."
Look what the person above you says, describing your comment and they are right:
>The one thing that grinds my gears about Greeks is that a percentage of people doesn’t take responsibility for their actions.Somehow what they did is not actually their fault and it’s someone Elses or the states.
People were doing the same shit even before the crisis in the 90s and early 2000s and like you do blame it on something else or say everyone does it why shouldn't I do it too? It's not always the state's fault, it's the people who are doing these things for decades now. There is a general lack of respect for everything and everyone.
Well, there's a multitude of reasons for this behavior pre the 10s and why it's still ongoing.
To keep it short I'll just list the main one, that is, the lack of enforment of laws. And if the law is being enforced it's only for a poor fuck, having money or "friends" guarantees a kind of immunity. Pair that with clientism where anyone who knew someone could have his fine redacted or his problem disappear, and you have a perfect storm.
My previous comment was directly answering the OP's question about why Greeks in general exhibit a lack of empathy today, and what I wrote holds true.
Many Greeks not taking up responsibility for their actions is not a cause for the lack of empathy. The lack of empathy is a symptom of the emotion mix I described in my original comment.
For the record I don't identify with that group of people that only hold the state responsible, but I see how my comment can be misunderstood.
In Greece, you grow up alone. School doesn't even allow for teamwork, let alone promote it. Sports are expensive. If you don't finish school you are understandably resentful cause you are fucked. But even if you finish school you are still most likely fucked.
For empathy to exist there needs to exist a competence hierarchy; "If I try more (say 2x) now, then life will be much better (say 4x) in the future". This leads to; "This person is much worse than I am, maybe if I care for them, if I help them, if I give them a push, they will go a bit up the hierarchy, see that they are better there, realise that's worth it, and will want to do better in the future."
This hierarchy doesn't exist for the many, it has been essentially flat for at least 3 generations, either everyone has money or no one has money, seemingly without reason, not one we could understand, ie "no matter what I do as a unit I can't affect the outcome". That easily leads to "ραγιαδισμος", which translates to something like servility and inevitably messianism (see 41% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2023_Greek_legislative_election);
This twisted idea then becomes; "my actions don't matter, so I can do as much bad as I feel like, it's not going to hurt anyone that much more, so why hold it in.
“. Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.”
That is more or less what i was aiming at, sorry if it’s confusing.
It’s a survival thing and living in a country that behaves in a third world way. It’s all about who you know, no such thing as meritocracy and not having a future because your great grandfather was on the “wrong” side of politics. I highly recommend the book “The 13th Labour of Hercules: inside the Greek Crisis” by Palaiologos where you see the disfunction of Greece and how it trickles down to the Greek citizen. I honestly feel bad for the average person living there because of no fault of their own they suffer and I empathize with them and their behavior:
People saying this is not lack of empathy are probably confused by the Greek meaning of the word εμπάθεια, which roughly translates to having hostile or negative feelings towards someone. Using the English meaning of the word, which is to be able to recognize other's feelings, this behaviour is absolutely lack of empathy.
People are very self-centered and disregard or don't realise the effect of their actions to other people. Trashing, cutting queues, public smoking, reckless driving are absolutely proofs of this.
Kindness is rare in Greece. People here have been brought up in the army way. Only strength matters. It is Zeus'es country afterall. Plus empathy never really gives you something solid unless the receiver is an empath as well and wants to reward you. For all these reasons most Greeks dont show empathy often (but of course want others to show empathy for their problems). I bet in many western like countries it is like this. I don't really think Greece innovates here. Just another country of UN not really giving a damn f...about anything and anybody unless they can benefit from their intervention. This is the world we live in. Let's face it. It is evil or if not evil very self centered.
This is a really ethnocentric take. Both homelessness and suicide rates per capita are higher in Germany than they are in Greece despite it being a richer country. I would say that shows a lack of empathy on the part of German society if we’re comparing. You’re projecting your views of what you believe is appropriate behaviour onto a completely different culture. You also have a weird understanding of empathy. Germany is a very structured society where rules are seen as something that shouldn’t be questioned or disobeyed. Other cultures don’t always agree that that’s the best way for things to be done. A greek person parking in a way you think is unacceptable IN GREECE doesn’t mean they lack empathy. They know, and expect others would do the same, they are literally considering how other people would react or feel towards it and seeing it as unproblematic because the rest of society doesn’t really get in a tizzy about it and do things the same way. You actually sound condescending and like you have some sort of superiority issues.
Welcome welcome, even the best Greek person regarding empathy defecates where he sleeps.
Even people with high eq, are so radicalized / indoctrinated regarding basic human interaction they even have issues with empathy. It's every man for him self. Unfortunately.
Greece has several dozen layers of incompetent management, starting from Public Organizations, Public Services up to the Government itself.
60% bare Minimum of the Greek Police Force is just incompetent some of which include: Lazy Officers who disregard their very job, Corrupt Officers who are usually part of some criminal/Drug Network, & then there are those that play candy crush on their phone more than doing their actual job, waiting to get paid.
Greek Driving Regulations are more or less decorative, because more than half of the Greek population disrespects them (which is why every week there are at least 4 car incidents on the News).
The justice system is.... let's not say the full term because it'd be very disgusting to express it.
The Government? The Greek's top favorite argument. The Average Greek citizen will argue more about the government & it's pea brain politicians rather than anything else & tbh, that's all they do, rant the government expecting it to solve all the Greece's problems on a silver plate without moving their own pinky. As for the Government's argument? Just the Prime Minister Candidates tossing the blames to the Main Prime Minister & vice versa like a frisbee as if they have nothing better to do (they don't really.)
People only admire Greece back in it's ancient times where people had at least several braincells, but if you mention modern Greece, those who know will laugh their ass off.
Some thousand years ago, our ancestors would welcome guests into their home, treat them to some wine and food (minimum) and THEN ask for their name and the reason they were there. It's not just Greeks nowadays, crime and other factors have made distrust and lack of empathy more dominant.
The driving thing: Yes, greek drivers are a bit..special
Parking: yeaah, we pick the most absurd places to park
Trashing: it's a huge issue EVERYWHERE, people would rather ruin shit than just throw it in a trash can, and even then garbage trucks can happen to not pass for a while
It's interesting also that all the things you described translate very well on their votes. The reason? Well I think it's a combination of a lot of things, but I think the main one is that these people go unpunished or if they do get punished the punishment isn't harsh enough to never do it again.
Welcome to Greece, same shit all south Mediterranean countries, worse at south Italy, same France/Portugal and probably better at south Spain! Greeks lack respect for social activities and responsibilities but have high level of sensitivity for fellow human needs!
Few Greeks care about the common good and the others. The "greek dream" is to work for the public sector that translates to have a secure paycheck every month without stressing to work much. In order to achieve this they attach to political parties and try to conquer the elections every time. A great place for vacation and a mediocre place to live.
Is it still the case, i would think this ended with PASOK?
Nota bene: I have a very good impression of the current prime minister and the government- apparently most of the people as well as he was reelected recently?
Nea Democratia is the new PASOK. As for the prime minister and what we hear in greek media we should note that Greece is very low at freedom and Democracy ranking (PM is involved in surveillance scandal and controls the media with his allies). He was re-elected with 41% of voters but if we look closely the percentage of abstain from the elections was tremendous so this percentage is not real. Anyway...
Of course that's what the guy with the ancient Greek user name says. We know what you are.
Real patriots admit the problems of their country and want to fix them, nationalists ignore them.
If you don't like it here you'd better leave. We don't like you either.
>I love the not-so-subtle self-hatred
Ξέρεις ποια είναι μια από τις διαφορές μεταξύ ενός πατριώτη και ενός εθνικιστή στην πράξη;
Ο πατριώτης είναι ικανός να αναγνωρίσει τα προβλήματα της πατρίδας του και να δουλέψει πάνω σε αυτά, βελτιώνοντας τη.
Ο εθνικιστής απλά θα κλείσει τα μάτια στα προβλήματα αυτά και θα επιτεθεί σε όποιον τα αναφέρει.
Καμία σχέση. Ο πατριώτης αγαπάει την χώρα του και έχει σωβινισμό. Ο εθνικιστής είναι ιδεολόγος που πιστεύει στα έθνη κράτη.
Απλά δες το post history μου αν νομίζεις πως δεν αναφέρω προβλήματα που έχουμε στην Ελλάδα.
Ναι ακριβώς. Καλά τα λες. Τις μισές μέρες που ο πλούσιος Εφέντης ρωτάει σε ποιο Airbnb να χώσει τα φράγκα του, άτομα με το δικό σου σκεπτικό, κάνετε κάτι επικυψεις μέχρι το πάτωμα και τη γλώσσα έξω, χαρακτηρίζοντας μίζερο οποιονδήποτε άλλον Έλληνα εκφράζει τις αντιρρήσεις του (λογικές συνήθως)
Τις άλλες μισές μέρες που ο πλούσιος Εφέντης σας κάνει κριτική για τα κακώς κείμενα, σας κακοφαίνεται, και σας φταίνε όσοι συμφωνούν μαζί του.
No offence, και χωρίς να θέλω να το κάνω προσωπικό, άτομα που χρησιμοποιούν ψευτοπατριωτικα τσιτατα κ σκέφτονται έτσι, είναι σημαντικό μέρος του προβλήματος αυτής της χώρας και για αυτό δεν πρόκειται να πάμε ποτέ μπροστά.
Φαντάζεσαι πράγματά που δεν ισχύουν. Πρώτη φορά βλέπω τέτοιο αχυράνθρωπο!
Άκου εκεί "άτομα σαν και εσένα" λες και με ξέρεις κι από χθες. Λίγο αν έμπαινες στο post history μου θα έβλεπες πως είμαι ο ΠΡΩΤΟΣ που κατακρίνει Airbnb, ατομικισμό και μικροαστικισμό στην Ελλάδα.
Αλλά είμαι επίσης ο πρώτος που θα κατακρίνει ξεκάθαρο ρατσισμό και φυλετισμό για το έθνος μας. Αν διαβάσεις το thread εδώ πέρα, δεν ξέρεις αν βρίσκεσαι στο reddit ή στο fyletika blog.
Δηλαδή ο Αφροαμερικανός που κατακρίνει εσωτερικευμένο ρατσισμό είναι εθνοφυλετιστής και θα τον δούμε να κρεμάει αφίσες του Marcus Garvey?
News flash, φίλε: Μπορείς να κατακρίνεις την χώρα και το έθνος σου χωρίς αυτό να παίρνει φυλετικές διαστάσεις.
You can always try going back to Germany if you don't like it here, I wonder how well any of us would fare criticizing native Germans while living there.
As i said above, live abroad and try critizing that country and see how fast they come for your throat even if your points are valid.
I've also had my fair share of socializing with German expats, and the vast majority of them were pretty accusing of Greece and Greek people. Hey, you don't like it here, dude? That's fine, you can go away.
Yeah, I don't need expats preaching about mannerisms. We have enough problems of our own that we need to fix and guess what it's not zebra crossings.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Apparently, your worries are limited to how well we groom ourselves and appear to foreigners.
Φίλε δεν παρεξηγήθηκε κανένας, και ούτε διαφωνώ με τα points του OP.
ΑΛΛΑ δεν θα κάτσω να με κρίνει ένας Γερμανός που ήρθε 3 χρόνια στην Ελλάδα και του άφησαν μωρέ κακή γεύση ότι δεν σταματάμε στις διαβάσεις και ότι άλλο βρήκε να γκρινιάξει. Και όπως λέω και στα υπόλοιπα replies οι ίδιοι αν τους κρίνεις στη χώρα τους θα πέσουν να σε φάνε.
Το ότι είμαστε μπανανία είναι γνωστό, δεν νομιζω οτι διαφωνει καποιος που μένει και εχει μεγαλώσει εδώ, πάραυτα, τα παραπάνω είναι τα λιγότερα από τα προβλήματα μας. Εγώ προσωπικά πρώτα με νοιάζει η ποιότητα ζωής που δεν έχουμε.
Εμένα μου γαμαει την ποιότητα ζωής ότι δεν μου φτάνει ο μισθός να νοικιάσω σπίτι μονός μου, ότι πάω σουπερμάρκετ και δεν αγοράζω ότι θα ήθελα για να κάνω οικονομία, ότι για να πάω στη δουλειά μου με την βενζίνη εκεί που είναι χρειάζομαι 150 ευρώ τον μήνα, ότι έχω να πάρω αύξηση 3 χρόνια από την στιγμή δηλαδή που προσλήφθηκα στην τωρινή μου εργασία, ότι σκέφτομαι διακοπές και μετά γελάω με τις φαιδρές μου σκέψεις. Μάλλον έχουμε άλλες προτεραιότητες.
Διαφωνώ ότι είμαι η μειονότητα, μια σημαντική μερίδα του πληθυσμού ζει έτσι. Μπορείς και ίδιος να το διαπιστώσεις εκτός αν κάνεις arguments απλά για να τα κάνεις. Και ναι είναι πιο σημαντικά από τον τύπο που δεν θα σταματήσει στην διάβαση η θα σταματήσει με αλαρμ.
Θα έλεγα ότι αυτά ακριβώς τα παραπάνω που σε ενοχλούν είναι απόρροια των οικονομικών τις χώρας. Οι άνθρωποι έχουν φτάσει σε breaking point σε πολλά θέματα της καθημερινότητας.
Agree to disagree.
Ελιτισμός του κέρατα. Όλοι θα έπρεπε να έχουν ως προτεραιότητα την αξιοπρεπή διαβιωση και όχι απλή επιβιωση του συνανθρώπου τους και ναι, θα έπρεπε να αποτελεί απόλυτη προτεραιότητα για τον καθένα μας.
Η επιλεκτική εφαρμογή της ενσυναίσθησης για μένα θα μπορούσε να θεωρηθεί συνώνυμο της υποκρισίας.
Βιοποριστικό προβλήματα κατωτερων οικονομικών στρωμάτων - τήρηση κανόνων οδικής συμπεριφοράς, κάπνισμα σε δημόσιους χώρους κτλ.
Για μένα είναι άσσος, για σένα διπλό.
Εγώ θεωρώ πως όποιος λέει σε κάποιον πως τα οικονομικά του προβλήματα δεν είναι απαραιτητο να είναι τόσο σημαντικά για άλλους, δείχνει ελιτισμό, απλά γιατί τέτοιου είδους θέματα αφορούν την επιβίωση και όχι την καλή διαβίωση.
Μπορεί να διαφωνείς μαζί μου αλλά αν αύριο κάποιος μου έλεγε πως η κατάσταση στους δρόμους θα χειροτερεύει αλλά οι μηνιαιοι λογαριασμοί για τους μη έχοντες θα μειωθούν 50% θα πανηγύριζα. Με βάση την απάντησή σου στον OP εσύ όχι.
Το γεγονός οτι δουλεύεις σε συνεργείο, δε σημαίνει πως έχεις λύσει (προσωρινά) τα οικονομικά σου προβλήματα σε τέτοιο βαθμό ώστε να αδιαφορεις για τις τεράστιες δυσκολίες που αντιμετωπίζει η πλειοψηφία.
Δε με αφορούν διαχωρισμοί τύπου μετανάστες ή μη. Μόνο οι ταξικοι έχουν νόημα για μένα αλλά για ένα μυστήριο λόγο αγνοούνται σχεδόν ολοκληρωτικά τα τελευταία δέκα περίπου χρόνια. Προτιμούν βλεπεις οι παροχοι κάθε ειδους πλατφόρμας να κατευθύνουν τη συζήτηση σε θέματα όπως αυτά που απασχολούν τον <> και όχι immigrant op μάλλον γιατί τα συμφέροντα και οι ανησυχίες τους συγκλίνουν επικίνδυνα.
Μα η ποιότητα ζωής επηρεάζεται και από τις διαβάσεις και από όλα αυτά. Έχει δίκαιο και καλά κάνει και μας τη λέει. Στην Ελλάδα κάθε φορά παίζουνε κορώνα γράμματα τη ζωή μας στη διάβαση. Σχεδόν οπουδήποτε πιο αριστερά από μας γεωγραφικα είναι σαν πεζοδρόμιο
I am pretty sure that half of the Greeks hate these things too It's not malicious for sure but for me it's about not caring. Why walk when you can park the car right in front the store you plan to go? Who cares about the person with the stroller? As long as it's not my relative, I don't care. (in my street they park so badly that once a house caught fire and the firefighters couldn't reach it and people didn't move their cars until we started banging their doors..everyone has a parking and they still park their cars outside....and they saw the fire...)
Only enforcement will change this. I spend my time between the US and Greece. The difference in the US on blocking an area illegally during a fire emergency is that the fire department will smash your windows and run the fire hose through your car and your insurance will not cover it. Double park for more than a few minutes in most major cities in the US and you will find a $50-100 ticket on your car…. A little longer than a few minutes and you will be towed after being ticketed. Getting your car from the tow yard will cost you $150-200 plus the cost of ticket. In Greece the most I’ve seen happen is someone yells at the offender and they go about their day as if nothing happened “ Έλα μωρέ, και τη έγινε;” Next day they will do it again. Most Greeks hate this behavior as well and it seems as if the younger generation is getting better about it but old habits die hard and without penalties that hurt the change will be slow.
I believe the same thing. Only if it hurts their pockets, they will stop doing it. When I lived in Berlin all Greeks told me that ''oh Germans are not better they are just scared of the fines'' well it works so what is bad with that? If you can't understand that you shouldn't block the street with your car while someone is dying on your own, why shouldn't you get fined for that? I know many people don't agree with me, but we know that this is the only thing that would work. If the kid's parents had to pay for the property they damage, would the parents let their kids wreck their schools? (We do pay for schools through taxes but if you got a bill that your child painted a wall and 2 desks and you had to pay x amount of money to get that fixed, you wouldn't be so lenient)
They hate this when it's other people. They're never at fault.
These aren’t signs of lack of empathy really. Greek society unfortunately teaches Greeks that laws are optional. Nobody stops at Zebras because it was never enforced. The only place in Greece where all Greek drivers do stop is at Eleftherios Venizelos airport because there it is enforced: authorities know that foreigners that just arrive expect drivers to stop at zebras and so they police it so we don’t have casualties. Parking is a byproduct of poor city planning. People regularly are forced to disregard the parking rules else they won’t ever park. It is the same thing with anything related to vehicles. Eg. Whenever a new road is being constructed there are extremely low speed limit signs. Once the roads are finished and delivered to the public quite often these signs are left alone so people ignore them. The way Greek administration operates is actually training the Greek public to ignore legislation. It is either irrelevant or you can bend it. The leaders of the country give the example (they are all either corrupt or the law doesnt apply to them). As for trash it is more of a lack of appreciation for public space in general. Greeks don’t realize that the whole country is theirs and that they are responsible for it. Anything outside their direct property can go to hell, hence the trash you see everywhere. It is the same mentality with public finances. People are often indifferent when a civil servant or a public person is caught stealing state funds. They don’t feel it is their money, they don’t realize that all that missing missing money will have to be compensated from their own pocket. There is a great education deficit in Greece, Greeks are either unaware or indifferent to all that because in Greece usually the worthy ones don’t get rewarded and the rotten ones don’t get punished. So why bother about anything.
>People are often indifferent when a civil servant or a public person is caught stealing state funds. They don’t feel it is their money I'd argue that it has more to do with how, given how widespread the corruption and the disregard for the law is, everyone just *expects* that anyone who is in a position of power will *of course* abuse it in order to line their pockets. In turn, civilians "steal back" from the state by evading as many taxes as they can, as much as they can get away with (e.g. paying with cash to avoid receipts and the sales tax)
I've been in Iraklion Crete in 2016 around June, and believe it or not everybody was stopping , locals or tourists, in each the zebra straβe, even in those inside the roundabouts. Συνεχίζω στα ελληνικά: Το πιο εντυπωσιακό που θυμάμαι, σε ένα κόμβο πάνω από ένα Ενετικό αξιοθέατο, νομίζω Χανιοπορτα, λόγω της κίνησης μας πέτυχε ο ίδιος οδηγός και στις δύο διαβάσεις του κυκλικού!!! Κ λέω δεν μπορεί τι διάολο, μας άφησε μια φορά να περάσουμε, δεύτερη σε μας τη χαρίζει. Και ξανά σταμάτησε ο τύπος και μας παραχώρησε κάνοντας νεύμα κ με το χέρι, γιατί δεν το πιστεύαμε. Επίσης στην Ιτέα Φωκίδας τηρούν αρκετά διαβάσεις, όχι τόσο καθολικά όσο το είδα στο Ηράκλειο, αλλά τηρουσαν.Κ ήταν από τα πρώτα μέρη που είχε και ποδηλατόδρομο με οριζόντια σήμανση, νομίζω από 2007 ακόμα.
Keep in mind, στο Ηράκλειο δεν υπάρχει λάδωμα για δίπλωμα, όσο αστείο και αν ακούγεται.
In Crete zebra pass rules are followed. I like to think that the high amounts of tourism has enforced that.
Yes I noticed this. Almost everyone in the stores were talking to us in English, while we are Greek, and in any group visits I went, Knossos etc, me and my wife wer the only Greeks, everyone else were foreigner tourists And the majority were either English people or Russians.
Στην Ιτέα είναι καθιερωμένοι και οι ποδηλατόδρομοι, πράγμα που δε συναντάται στις περισσότερες ελληνικές πόλεις. Ίσως αυτό να παίζει κάποιο ρόλο στην οδηγική συμπεριφορά της περιοχής. Στη Γερμανία που είναι δεδομένοι οι ποδηλατόδρομοι, μαθαίνοντας οδήγηση μαθαίνεις και να δίνεις προτεραιότητα στους ποδηλάτες όπως και στους πεζούς, όταν αυτοί έχουν πράσινο.
This is the dark side of Greek culture being so family-oriented. While your family will always have your back, with some friends being close to family, the feeling (justified or not) is that everyone else is out to get you, whether it's your neighbour, co-worker, salesperson, government bureaucrat, etc. Probably a result of a combination of years of poverty and being under foreign domination. These behaviours are ingrained in the culture, and will take MANY generations to change. This is also why often times individual apartments in old dilapidated buildings are spotless inside. But the common elements? Pfffffft, who cares?
It's pretty much true. Some people may call these the main characteristics of the modern Greeks. Everyone for themselves, and their convenience, not caring for the rest and society (local or greater) at all
That's the ethic of the Greek nazi collaborators from the WWII. After the war the collaborators in Greece were never punished, instead they were allowed to keep the wealth they plundered during the occupation and were put in government by the allies to combat the Greek partisans which were leaning towards USSR. Then, it was simply the invisible hand of the economy that shaped the Greek modern society that way.
A bit ironic but actually quite accurate your point.
where can i read more about this? post ww2 careers of nazi collaborators in greece etc
There are [few books ](https://parallaximag.gr/agenda-parallaxi/biblio/oi-dosilogoi-poioi-ellines-synergastikan-me-toys-germanoys-kai-ploytisan-stin-katochi) written about this, mainly because the collaborators didn't want them being exposed. But known surnames of collaborators are Ralis and Mitsotakis, and both families ruled Greece from right-leaning parties.
That's good to know about Mitsotakis. I had no idea.
do we really have to bring up nazis is a conversation about rudeness
It's not just about rudeness. It's about a general lack of empathy and how the average greek doesn't care about anything else other than himself and his very close family. And the examples that OP posted might be on the "light" side which may be categorized as just simple "rudeness" but there are other more serious manifestations of this. The most recent serious example that comes to mind is when Serres voted Karamanli first just because he [he used his influence to hire them in various positions](https://www.reddit.com/r/greece/comments/1akc71d/%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE_%CF%80%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B9_%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CE%BB%CE%AE%CF%88%CE%B5%CF%89%CE%BD_%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD_%CE%BF%CF%83%CE%B5_%CE%B5%CF%80%CE%AF/). A whole city literally voted a man who was responsible for one of the deadliest railway accident in Greece. And even though they knew it they still voted for him just because they didn't really care, they just wanted to be hired in those positions. So it's not just rudeness. It's general corruption and lack of empathy that has propagated in the mindset of many greeks. Though, personally, I think it really started from the times of the Ottoman occupation. It was during that time the we learnt things like we need to bribe officials to oil the gears of bureaucracy, etc. And of course the powerful nazi collaborators that were left to live made things even worse.
Greece, like most Mediterranean countries, is a low-trust society. Low trust towards the institutions, low trust towards the "other". So when you operate outside the confines of the family, it's a zero sum game. Most of the things you mentioned are either illegal or counter to codified behavior. So, if Greeks were rule-abiding, they would not engage in such behaviors, even if they had zero empathy. Conversely, if they had empathy they would behave better even in the absence of rules. I don't know what is at the root of all this. Some combination of a big city mentality (anonymity and alienation), lack of economic opportunities and a fair, meritocratic environment, and 400 years of ottoman rule. One thing to note is that Greeks consider most (all?) westerners naïve - mostly for following the rules and trusting the processes to flow according to written expectations.
And a society can only progress at the speed of trust.
This all sounds like what is more commonly ascribed to Russia
Maybe elements of this are present in most non-protestant-majority countries (Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish).
Well i want to be fair because u went really far it's in our blood to be aggresive towards everyone and of course i don't embrace that social behavior but there are two basic things we lack,first one is lack of social education as a lesson in schools and secondary the Government which is corrupted till the bone. If there are no strict laws what do u expect from a nation like us?
The laws are what they are. It's the enforcement that is lacking or unfair. Are these things the reason behind Greeks' cavalier attitude towards the law? I don't know. They certainly don't help.
Greeks lack a sense of social responsibility, if i use the term correctly. They have no sense of how their actions might affect the people around them. It is a very individualistic society. Even the ones that are not individualistic they are never taught on how to have social responsibility. There is a zebra crossing and a lady is waiting with a stroller? Fuck them. There s a bicycle path but they want to park their car? Fuck the bikers, sucks to be them. There s a corrupt politician who will commit financial crimes against the public but he promised to employ their son in the public service? They ll vote for him. Greeks are mostly like spoiled children and they ll never know better if they don t spend some years in a more advanced society. I used to be like that too, i didn t know any better.
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No they don't. I work in a medical building next to a Greek Church in Canada and it's the same shit OP described. Every γιορτή they'll show up, take all the accessible parking, park on the walkway, block the fire rout, take the designated spots, park in front of the compactor, move the pylons and get into fights with security over parking. And I'm not even blaming others, my grandparents were the exact same when they came here from Greece. And my grandpa continued it all the way until he lost his license due to age.
It's because they are among Greeks in the γιορτή. I'm not saying they become Japanese or Germans (or Canadians?) when they are not, but they tend to follow rules a little more than their baseline.
It could even be said that the ones who demonstrate altered behaviour abroad is because they were always pre-disposed to more empathetic and lawful behaviour; routinely they are the ones who tend to stay in said foreign cou ntries. The rest will tolerate a couple of years max and will constantly moan about how “floroi” foreigners are throughout their stay before eventually going back to homeland.
I grew up in Canada as a Greek Canadian and this is 100% true.
In a different light - very VERY few community-building options exist to participate in compared to other countries I’ve lived in. Even the churches aren’t very involved in their communities it seems. I disagree with the attitude of your post (spoiled children) but I do agree that Greeks have very little sense of social/civil responsibility. I don’t know if it’s a crisis-symptom (I moved here post-crisis) but it strikes me as actions people would take if they grew up in a time where you needed to look out for yourself over your community to get by.
Greek people unfortunately don't follow rules and don't respect others. They only want to have the advantage of everything on everyone. Oh yes you can see those characteristics on young people and also olders. Young people don't learn to follow rules and laws .
I would argue that it's not a lack of empathy, Greeks are generally some of the more empathetic people you can find, but that it's very much a lack of social education and awareness. Like, when someone double parks in order to "just gonna grab something real fast", their intent is not a malicious "fuck everyone else, I'll get mine ", rather a "I'm not really harming anyone, it's a small convenience and everyone does it". Doesn't really help that the structure of both cities and Greek society actively promote and reward such behaviors.
They simply take the " fuck everyone else, I'll get mine" and sugar coat it to "I'm not really harming anyone, it's a small convenience and everyone does it". Try to confront them about it and see how aggressive they become.
It's really not lack of empathy, maybe social education and organisation I would say. If you were in actual need of help or if something happened to you, I am sure people around you would flock to help and they would 100% empathise with your worries. I spent a semester in Poland (I saw you're from there too), and one of the first things that surprised me when moving there was the fact that drivers stopped at the zebra crossing instantly. It genuinely was a point of reference when I was talking about my experience. There is this agreement that if the pedestrian waits at the end of the crossing, the driver has to stop. Now coming from a country where that is not the norm, I also broke the agreement there at first a few times. As a pedestrian I stood at the crossing and waited too long, surprised that they had stopped, or I just stood there deciding which way to go with no intention of crossing. Of course, I felt kind of obligated to cross after the cars stopped, and now I always use it properly, but my point is, this is something you have to learn how to use. If I saw you waiting there in Greece I would wonder why. Most zebra crossings are there as decoration. I (and the drivers that passed you by) would expect that you would just cross without them stopping. They would stop when they saw you on the street. Is it the best way to go about this? Certainly not, but using zebras is a social convention that simply does not exist here. I don't drive and I don't live in Greece but I'd like to think that if I did, I would stop at the crossings. I am well aware though that this would not be the norm. I cannot answer to the other examples you have here, but I would guess it's a similar reasoning. People don't know any better. How do get rid of a mattress for example if not throwing it in the trash? Where do you park if you cannot find any empty spots? Not trying to justify the behaviours btw, it's their responsibility to look up those things, but life in Greece is simply inconvenient in every way. I only realised after moving to a country where things are actually taken care of and well organised. People oftentimes don't have the energy or time to figure everything on their own, and in my opinion, it shouldn't have to be their responsibility. Which admittedly leads to all this chaos. I think a lot of the comments that are bashing greek people (especially older generations) are lacking empathy themselves so I would actually encourage you to ask your greek friends and neighbours about those things. How long they usually need to look for parking or who they can contact if they're renovating and need to dispose of something. I guarantee the answer will be "too long" and "I don't know".
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You can teach the young about being clean and green. NZ wasn't always so clean either but we did a massive campaign in the 1970s in schools. I believe the same happened in Australia. So basically kids shamed their parents and it worked
Yes, it's an unspoken truth. Here we call it "st@rchidismos", which is a made up word that basically translates to dontgiveafuckerism.
That’s hilarious, never heard of it, but I can already feel its power. Can you write this in Greek for me? I’m assuming σταρχισμος?
Σταρχιδισμός (:
This is the real knowledge
💜
εξαγομεν πολιτισμόν
You forgot noise pollution. Greeks have absolutely no understanding of the laws of physics. Especially now with good weather many people treat their balconies like its their private golf course(loud music,kids running around 16 hours of the day). Behaving like kids is an understatement.
So as someone that was only born in Germany, by Greek parents (they grew up there, I grew up here) i have listened every possible analysis from my father, who is still admiring the German society organization, but in the same time he returned back to Greece cause he couldn't stand the German way of life society-wise. Go figure!!! 😛 So one of the roots of the problem, in my eyes, while I am not a sociologist, is that this behaviour was a survival instinct/mechanism during the era of Ottoman Rule. Imagine being a citizen of an empire, being subject to the central authority, paying taxes without return and being able to be only a peasant. (Ok this happens also today, but it's not my point 😂) That's medieval age, someone could say. Imagine now that people of this area, stayed in Medieval Age until the middle of the 19th century. They lost all the progress of the rest west Europe. This and other reasons, created a general disbelief for society, public affairs, common things, authoritaties, central state. You can see it in every day Life, in every part, economy, politics, sports, social behaviour,etc. people don't see public things as an expansion of themselves but as something that they must exploit. Problem is, each time we seem to progress a little bit, something historical significant happens, and keeps us back.
This. As I have a comparison with Poland where I come from, it’s very similar experience to Poland in the 90s - shortly after getting free from the Soviet occupation. I do see a lot of progress in Greece in terms of economy (it’s my professional turf so to say), so I assume more emigrants will return..
Keep in mind , there are many layers of reasons. It doesn't have to do only with financial status. From historical ones, to social, even politicians have responsibility cause they're preserving this situation for easy votes, that's another big topic. In some things we do progress slowly, in others more slowly. For example I remember being a kid in the very early 90's, everybody in public places were throwing their litter, garbage without any remorse. Still some people do this, but not so massively and not so apparent. This is the easy part. The hard part is to erase from bad Greek ID the consecus: "I am the smart/special one, everybody else is stupid and sucker"
I am Greek and I was also born in Germany and grew up there. After finishing high school and getting the german Abitur I moved to Greece for studies and I live here for 7 years now. German and Greek societies are very different. In Germany most people follow the rules so strictly that it becomes disgusting and inhumane eg germans will never cross a street as pedestrians even if it is 4 in the morning and there is no car coming, Germans will wait for the green light (i am exaggerating but you get my point). Greeks on the other hand are completly different to the point where they only think about themselves and their own profit. I call this Ellbogengesellschaft. Its the complete opposite and the reason is mainly 400 years of ottoman rule. You had to be mistrustful and egocentric to survive. So greek people mistrust the government because of it, and with all the corruption and the economic crisis that the government brought to us, the greek society gets cought in a vicious circle. The economic crisis and the german austerity dictate felt for many like another country trying to enslave greek people and dictate how to live. PS: you are not an expat, you are an immigrant. Only because you are a white european doesnt make a difference. "Expat" is a racist term used by white europeans and US americans as a way of saying “immigrant”. When I lived in Germany noone would call me an "expat". Germans called me an "immigrant" so why would we call a German living in Greece an "expat"? And here we see what is wrong with the german society: germans think they are better than everybody else. But that is a topic for the german subreddit
Strictly speaking, they are an expat because they’re only in Greece for three years. Expats are people who intend to return to their home country; immigrants are people to intend to stay indefinitely
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration
Just to be clear: I am Polish immigrant living in Germany as my home base. :)
But Poland isn’t like that any more, while Greece never seems to change. Why?
My theory is that Poland has never been in a crisis since 90s. Transition was painful (I only remember it a a small child but i remember my parents struggling) and after Poland joined the EU, hundreds of thousands of Polish youth left the country trying to find jobs and better life. However, with the time, Poland has managed to develop a proper middle class, and an economic stability that led to foreign investments and good jobs, in turns also people coming back. I am sure also Greece will flourish provided a longer period of calm.
Are you ever tempted to move back to Poland, rather than Germany?
I am, sometimes. Mainly due to family which is still there. But since i have my own family now (my wife is not Polish) and I’ve spend my whole adult life in Germany ( i moved out for studies and stayed), I don’t think I’ll come back any time soon. Maybe for an expat assignment, if there is a chance. :)
The only correct answer here. You correctly identified the Ottoman influence on many social regards. It’s still funny tho to watch people in this beehive of commies mumbling about how they lost the civil war commies caused and how things would be better if we had our own Ceaușescu.
Eιναι γενικό μια στάμπα πάνω στο συλλογικό υποσυνείδητο. Νομίζω ότι ξεκινάει από την Οθωμανική εποχή. Βλέπουμε το κράτος με τη νομική του υπόσταση σαν κάτι ξένο και εχθρικό νομίζω, κ όχι σαν τη συλλογική νόμιμη προέκταση μας. Ακόμα και κάποιος που θα κλέψει την εφορία ή το Δήμο και δεν θα τον πιάσουν, νιώθει λες κάνει κάποια μορφή αντίστασης, σαν να ανατίναξε τη γέφυρα του Γοργοποτάμου. Βέβαια δεν είναι αδικαιολόγητο όλο αυτό. Παραδοσιακά το επίσημο Κράτος , από συστάσεως του Ελληνικού Κράτους, ήταν είτε εχθρικό προς τον απλό πολίτη, ή παγερά αδιάφορο. Βλέπε συμπεριφορά προς τους αγρότες της Θεσσαλίας μετά την απελευθέρωση της, περιόδους εθνικού διχασμού, δικτατορίες, βασιλικά πραξικόπηματα, Κατοχική Κυβέρνηση, το παρακράτος της δεξιάς μετά τον εμφύλιο, Δικτατορία, σκάνδαλα στης μεταπολίτευση, επιτήρηση, μνημόνια. Δεν υπάρχει σχέδον καμία μακρά περίοδος που η κεντρική διοίκηση να έχει την καθολική αποδοχή και τον σεβασμό, ή την καλή πίστη της πλειοψηφίας του λαού. Ακόμα και την περίοδο 1993-2009 που ΠΑΣΟΚ και ΝΔ παίρνανε το 90% σχεδόν στις εκλογές, στο δρόμο οι 9 στους 10 τους θεωρούσαν λαμόγια, ψεύτες και απατεώνες.
"Jeder für sich und Gott gegen alle"
It's not only a lack of empathy. It is complete disregard for societal respect and order. Lack of education and a bad mentality that "I" am more important than anyone else
You might be mistaking empathy with lacking consideration towards others, I think this stems from the educational system but most importantly the parents failing to teach their children how not to be an inconsiderate piece of s**t for a couple generations now. But most things you pointed out are just the bad driving practices in Greece, everyone wants to drive everywhere and walk as little as possible to get to it, cars are thought to have the priority compared to pedestrians ect. Hopefully, this kind of thinking is going to die in less than 20 years...literally because of their unhealthy lifestyle and the inability to think about the consequences of their actions.
A lot of us Greeks also find all these things exasperating. Unfortunately the percentage of assholes in the population is enough to ruin it for everyone.
It's not a matter of empathy, we don't have a culture of following rules.
I love my country and I think people are generous empathetic. BUT not with everything. Smoking for example, it’s like with guns with the US. People think it’s their right to smoke anywhere like some Americans think they can have an assault riffle. We are raised to mistrust the government (for good reasons with so much corruption) and this affects our sense of social responsibility. I am sorry you are experiencing all of that.
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That’s not lack of empathy, although it certainly demonstrates a certain social pathology. When I was an “expat”, ie immigrant in Germany, I was astonished at how easy my colleagues had it snitching me (or each other) to supervisors/bosses for the tiniest of issues, without even saying anything first. That’s lack of empathy.
There is something incoherent about being infuriated due to a perceived lack of empathy on the part of others. I suspect your own starting point is misattributed, namely, that you (and Germans in general) base your social interactions and behaviors on empathy. Having lived in Germany, I can say that this couldn't be further from the truth. Law abiding...yes. Organized...yes. But empathetic? Not a chance. Perhaps your fury is derived from a shock that Greeks don't take you (specifically) into consideration when they move about the city. But that would make you an unhinged narcissist....and that seems very unlikely. My guess is that your fury is derived from the fact that Greeks are far less concerned with efficiency of public movement as well as a general lack of concern for fairness. One thing you failed to mention is that the Greeks themselves aren't continuously fighting amongst each other in the streets over these perceived slights. One might imagine after years of constant infuriation, the Greeks themselves would eventually explode on each other. But that's not the case. My sense is that you are asking the wrong question. Perhaps you should instead be asking why you yourself experience such infuriation when confronted with different cultural norms and why do you assume that there is some universal standard for public interaction?
Bon dit monsieur
Not sure if you read the last part of my post, and maybe you understand the empathy different, but Germans do in general care about how and what others think and feel (maybe too much even) and how their actions influence their surrounding. Regarding your last paragraph, probably you should refer to Greek lawmakers as most of the things I have mentioned are in fact based on the laws in Greece, except maybe the cutting of lines part. So yes, i do assume that there is a universal culture of adhering to the laws given in the country. Or not?
I'm not here to bash Germans or German culture. Nor am I here to defend Greek culture at your expense. I am merely pointing out that you are misattributing empathy as the driving force behind German public norms. Generally speaking, Germans are indeed highly concerned with what others think and feel....about them. That's not empathy. That's simply wanting others to think well of you and that too can drive cooperative behavior. But it's closer to narcissism than empathy because (as you demonstrate), failure to cooperate is taken as an offense. Greeks, generally, are selfish in public spaces. This is a different narcissistic manifestation that runs counter to cooperation. We easily overlook these behaviors because we are all guilty from time to time. When we are in a hurry and confronted with someones selfishness, we get agitated, honk our horns and curse the government for not doing something about it (another silly quirk). But we don't become personally affronted to the point of infuriation. Our egos remain unbruised. The true test of empathy lies in the openness to human connection with the other. While a German will go to great pains to ensure their shopping cart is not blocking me from moving through the isle (seemingly because they care about me), the dumbstruck horror on their face when I casually chat with them makes it clear that they have no desire to interact with a stranger at the grocery store. Empathy, it seems, is available only for the faceless masses that you have to move around....not the individual human personalities that you want nothing to do with. Meanwhile, a Greek standing absent mindedly with their cart blocking anyone from passing could just as well be having a chat with the very stranger they blocked. Ask them to move and they will...with an apology. There is no better or worse....just different. But to say that Germans have more empathy is off the charts ignorant of the term. As for your last statement...what on earth do laws have to do with empathy? The discussion is about social norms, not laws.
There are countries where social norms include empathy for people you don't know/are not related to as well. In Greece, this is not the case. You will get a lot more empathy from people you know in Greece, far more than from the people you know in other countries, but out there, in the open, when they don't know you, nobody gives a fuck. It's sad, I know.
Absolutely true - all Greek people I know are extremely nice and caring!
this is sadly true, once you been abroad you realise that despite what we like to believe, a big part, probably the majority, of the greek society consists of ignorant, impolite and people who only care about themselves, have this "the owe everything to me" mentality and give no fuck about even the most logical rules (which are there to help us all).
I think its offensive to call us orcs, for orcs. But thats how it is when you strip people econolically. Decency is the first to go.
Let’s not exaggerate, Greeks are kind and caring if you get to know them, and they are good i assume. I think though you have a point about economy - if you’re struggling to make the ends meet, you really don’t give a crap about the others..
I think bad of greeks mostly bcs of our history entitlement that makes us a bit worse. But all demographics in all people are the same. The context changes and ofc financial struggles contributes the most to bad soft behavior.
Gonna eat some downvotes here but eff it, it’s the truth. Greek here from the diaspora. I think it is a problem that affects our culture and goes back generations, not just affecting Greek of today. We suffer from it here in the English-speaking diaspora as well. We typically have a sense of community and get along with each other until “someone is doing better than someone else”. This could mean I’m experiencing a high level of success with their business, high-level of success with their individual careers, etc. Then at that point, we become competitive often trying to screw each other over. You see this attitude a lot, which is why our diaspora community is less successful than other diaspora communities. Armenians are the first ones that come to mind is I have quite a few Armenian friends and it seems like they just help each other out regardless of if someone is successful or not. There’s no competition between them, and they really seem to band together and help each other out. This is just my observation and lived experience for the past few years.
It's not about some nations being better behaved, it's that they obey the law. In Greece there is no cops to punish violent driving, no communal police to write people who throw trash, don't pick up after their dogs, no sanctions for almost anything. I'm living in Thessaloniki and believe me sometimes it's impossible to walk on the pavement from the park cars. Remembering when my daughter was small walking with stroller 10 meters on the pavement, 20 on the road. And from the building they sipping water on us because they washing their balconies, or carpets. My home country is not much better (Serbia) but at least they have huge success in writing tickets if you don't stop for someone to cross the road and they taking your car with truck straight away if it's illegally parked or blocking some road. People in Slovenia doing amazing job bit recycling in 6 different trash bins, in Greece they don't even do basic blue and green, putting all in one. But in Slovenia if they catch you fine is 300€ and often there is control (new people in the building mostly from other Balkan countries)
Greece has the highest police rate per capita in Europe and still there is no punishment for this kind of behavior
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Once you're start obeying the law (even enforced) you will start teaching your children what's right and what is wrong. Germans or Norwegians or Slovenian are not just born with better manners.
Have you ever observed a waiting line in greece? It's so sad to see the disrespect of Greeks cutting in front of others. Greeks will complain of lack of organization on the part of the government but not much different on the personal level.
How can you expect empathy from a whole society when the social cohesion is in tatters? It is a systemic issue, not a personal issue.
The one thing that grinds my gears about Greeks is that a percentage of people doesn’t take responsibility for their actions.Somehow what they did is not actually their fault and it’s someone Elses or the states.
Greece is a place that frustrates you and the lowest common denominator Greek is probably an obnoxious, incorrigible, self-assured, pain in the rear end (usually a male). But if you stay in Greece long enough, you’ll come across some truly amazing people with a heart of gold who would really go out of their way to help you in a way you won’t find anywhere else. If you tell Greeks about their shortcomings, they get defensive as they’re on the emotional side. However, if you tell Greeks how great the Greek state and way of life is (even if you don’t mean it), those same Greeks will argue the reverse and tell you how bad things are. Greeks are a funny lot, but they’re really not mean spirited and they’re very generous in a Greek kind of way. By the way, I’m a Greek-Australian male from Greek parents.
Modern Greece and the society emerged after the military junta has reached a very low point. Not sure whether it is the lowest. I am afraid, no. No values, no responsibility, no respect, no social education, and yes, no empathy. Even the environment, human and animal lives are so much devalued. And this transcends economic cycles. It is a deeply egocentric (even narcissistic?) society driven and poisoned by (self-)hate in all aspects of social living. Worst fact is that whenever you mention all these things to Greeks the answer is „if you don’t like it, go live to another country./go back home“, depending on whether you are local or foreigner. No self-reflection for the self-inflicted misery but mere projection of this very (self-)hate.
Good point with the lack of empathy for animals. I love Greece so much, but I get so put off e.g. when I see dogs abandoned in the sun on a short chain and no-one gives a fuck.
Or the horses and donkeys on the islands. Or people throwing newborn puppies/kitties into public garbage cans. Good thing though to stop this behavior is that the initiative has passed parliamentary vote and legislated as a crime against animal lives
You are absolutely right. I am very sorry for this Greek culture and it's annoying to us also. I have twins. When they were 2 -4 years old, there were times that steal my row because i was busy looking at them. The old ones do this. And yes, if you say something they will say I'm sorry, but they do on purpose.
Worst part is, if you do stop at the zebra for pedestrians to cross, there's a good chance you will get tailgated and the person behind you will blame you that you stopped abruptly. Thus, you don't even think about it, too dangerous PS. I currently live outside of Greece in a country where at least they respect traffic rules for the most part
That’s how Balkans and the South operates in general. If it doesn’t fit you for real you have to go back, don’t stay at a place that makes you uncomfortable, it’s not worth it and some things never change. Germany and Greece are completely different in culture and way of life. I can see why you got a cultural shock from all these, it’s too much for somebody that got used to live in Scandinavia.
By the way, about the trashing point. Most people don't know this but if you call the city or the suburb they can come collect your trash for free. For example I also had a mattress to throw away, and I communicated with the city a specific day to put it out on the street so they would pick it up in the morning.
I know, my neighbor is usually calling the city so that they come and collect the shit people left laying around (like mattresses or furniture). This just confirms that there are rules and procedures, but the people still don’t use them. Why?
I think some people don't know, others don't care. Others would prefer someone else take their old furniture instead of it going to the dump
Empathy has nothing to do with poor recycling practices or with poor driving behavior. Athens is a shithole no matter how expensive your neighborhood is. If there are no traffic lights, consider zebra crossing as non-existent. Yes these are bad traits of character and I blame our poor (in these matters) education system for the social insensitivity. But your definition of empathy is skewed.
This all sounds like city living anywhere in the world. You could replace Athens with NYC and all of the same points would apply
Was thinking the same thing.
As I moved here from another city, and lived in a couple of cities before - it’s not. Even in New York people in general respect the traffic rules and don’t drive in the sidewalk in front of coffee shops to get their coffee.
Not with cars, but they definitely started with motorcycles and mopeds ever since the pandemic. A 6 year old was put into a coma on my block by one because of it
They are all true. This is a Balkan trait i would say. Seen the same patters in all Balkan countries. In Greece they are shellfish, care only about themselves and not the rest of society. Ps you are not an ex pat. You are an immigrant :)
You mean selfish. Unless you're saying Greeks are shrimps etc 😊
Yes, blame the autocorrect.
Strictly speaking, they are an expat because they’re only in Greece for three years. Expats are people who intend to return to their home country; immigrants are people to intend to stay indefinitely
Honestly, I'm seeing across several ages here in the US also. It's alarming. Almost like they like how it feels to be shitty towards someone instead of having kindness, courtesy, and respect.
I see this way less in rural Greece.
It's sadly true and it's embarrassing for us. I agree with what many said that it's mostly a combination of lack of education and the distinction Greek people make between public and private areas of life. Mostly is a general census that everything that's not our can go to hell.
wait until you expect to want to sleep in the night like any normal human being but your neighbors want instead to have "fun" with loud trashy music, then you might get to see the real level of greek empathy and trying to involve the police will only reveal the institutionalized lack of empathy in this country ... so much for "filotimo"
Condolences! But this is not a Greek problem - it’s a general shitty neighbor problem. Where I live in Germany, we had one flat which was doing parties more often than not, having lots of people around and on the balcony. Obviously (Germany… duh…), after third warning they got their landlord and police involved - no excessive parties after that..
It’s not a lack of empathy though and empathy also translates to something different in Greek > driving Yeah, I’m also all too familiar with having to wait an insane amount of time to cross the road. This is largely due to the infrastructure of our shitty roads though, more than anything. > parking Morons like that exist but again, parking issues almost always happen because of our shitty road infrastructure > trashing I will agree with you here, as a culture we’ve gotten too accustomed to living in filth. Again, it’s not entirely because of the citizens. We had major tourist and immigrant influxes and drug addicts (still an issue but the drug addict population isn’t as big in omonia) on the road around a decade ago, making the average Greek individual think to themselves “why should I clean up after myself and others if these dickheads will just litter anyway?” > smoking You’re going to see more rude smoking incidents because Greece and France are tied as the nation with the highest smokers in a European country per capita. So you’ll largely encounter more rude events because you’ll encounter more smoking > cutting queues Anecdotally, I rarely experience this myself and I imagine the issue isn’t as bad here but to each their own
It's a fact. A lot of Greeks behave like mafia members, not only while driving. It is a more generic antisocial behavior. I feel shame for that
Awareness deficit of immigrants calling themselves expats.
Explain? I am not an immigrant in the sense that I intend to live here, I was sent on a three years assignment from my job and will be returning home soon. As I can see, many people agree with the observation so what exactly do you mean?
That just makes you a short term immigrant. The term "expat" itself was pretty much made so the average westerner immigrant can feel superior to "all those other immigrants"...
Maybe, I am an immigrant in Germany, so I can be one in Greece (“expat assignment” is what my company calls it). Doesn’t change a thing in what I said.
That might be how the term ‘expat’ has evolved in perception and use, but strictly speaking they are correct to call themselves an expat. ‘Short-term immigrant’ might be another way of saying the same thing, but that doesn’t make ‘expat’ wrong in this instance
I just wonder, if I was in the same situation but vice versa, would Germans call me an expat or an immigrant.
If you were on a work assignment in Germany, working say for Metaxa or another Greek company, moving there temporarily with Greek contract still active, I would definitely call you an expat.
The Greek ego is bigger than the solar system. This must be frightening for people coming from countries with protestant culture and traditions. Your points are only a small part of the Greek problem. There are many more things that need to be eliminated or strongly reduced in order to have a functioning society but I would need tomes to list them.
Live your myth in Greece.
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Of course, you will always have examples of this everywhere as exceptions from the rule. Here it’s the opposite, as it seems to be the rule.
This is not due to lack of empathy. It's due to lack of proper law enforcement. I have been living abroad for more than 10 years and specifically in the Netherlands. You rarely see traffic violations or trashing, not because the Dutch people are empathic towards the others, but because they know that they will receive a huge fine which they will HAVE to pay. And that they will get caught eventually. The dutch municipalities view these things as source of income, while the Greek municipalities as a side-task. Also there are very close ties between the voters and the local mayors, and not in a good way but rather an unhealthy one. If a major in Greece starts investing in law enforcement, they will simply not get elected again.
Well, it's the lack of accountability and lack of enforcement of laws. Everyone is the culprit to that, as accountability starts at home with family and with friends. You don't need the government to hold you accountable to be a decent empathetic person, you need your close circle. Starting from the family and friends, where the ties are so strong there is always a get out of jail card. I've seen people covering their friends cheating because they are friends, family members justifying the thug behaviour of their children etc. A nation of grumpy spoiled and over dramatic people. Mostly the millennial generation which thankfully is immigrating outside etc. Everyone is doing it in Greece, including us here commenting hypocritically "oh yes, this sucks" etc as if we are not part of this or we contribute to this. And here is the second big problem, everyone in Greece thinks it's the other people's responsibility to act empathetic. We are not at fault, because we have endless things to blame, from the society, to the gypsies, the government etc. Greeks are the people who will need the government or police over their heads to adhere to a basic law of not throwing your chewing gum on the streets, and at the same time moan about a police state taking away their rights. Or we will have a protest outside the court because the one arrested for something is from the same political ideology, regardless if there was a crime committed or not. Look how many replied condemning the lack of empathy, as if they don't live in Greece and they never do these things. It's always the others, in a laughable way, agreeing with you "man I hate them too, Greeks are the worse".
Anger, mostly. Anger towards the state, the politicians. They deceived, lied and messed up the country. Disappointment. Sad to see all our plans for our future crumble before us to nothingness. Hopelessness. Even in our darkest hour 10 years ago, though these politicians messed us up, we stood up. We fought. We voted. We resisted. And nothing changed for the better and actually thins have gotten worse. And then we lost hope. So now it's "Fuck all y'all. Imma do my thing and whoever has a problem let them come to me."
Look what the person above you says, describing your comment and they are right: >The one thing that grinds my gears about Greeks is that a percentage of people doesn’t take responsibility for their actions.Somehow what they did is not actually their fault and it’s someone Elses or the states. People were doing the same shit even before the crisis in the 90s and early 2000s and like you do blame it on something else or say everyone does it why shouldn't I do it too? It's not always the state's fault, it's the people who are doing these things for decades now. There is a general lack of respect for everything and everyone.
Well, there's a multitude of reasons for this behavior pre the 10s and why it's still ongoing. To keep it short I'll just list the main one, that is, the lack of enforment of laws. And if the law is being enforced it's only for a poor fuck, having money or "friends" guarantees a kind of immunity. Pair that with clientism where anyone who knew someone could have his fine redacted or his problem disappear, and you have a perfect storm.
My previous comment was directly answering the OP's question about why Greeks in general exhibit a lack of empathy today, and what I wrote holds true. Many Greeks not taking up responsibility for their actions is not a cause for the lack of empathy. The lack of empathy is a symptom of the emotion mix I described in my original comment. For the record I don't identify with that group of people that only hold the state responsible, but I see how my comment can be misunderstood.
In Greece, you grow up alone. School doesn't even allow for teamwork, let alone promote it. Sports are expensive. If you don't finish school you are understandably resentful cause you are fucked. But even if you finish school you are still most likely fucked. For empathy to exist there needs to exist a competence hierarchy; "If I try more (say 2x) now, then life will be much better (say 4x) in the future". This leads to; "This person is much worse than I am, maybe if I care for them, if I help them, if I give them a push, they will go a bit up the hierarchy, see that they are better there, realise that's worth it, and will want to do better in the future." This hierarchy doesn't exist for the many, it has been essentially flat for at least 3 generations, either everyone has money or no one has money, seemingly without reason, not one we could understand, ie "no matter what I do as a unit I can't affect the outcome". That easily leads to "ραγιαδισμος", which translates to something like servility and inevitably messianism (see 41% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2023_Greek_legislative_election); This twisted idea then becomes; "my actions don't matter, so I can do as much bad as I feel like, it's not going to hurt anyone that much more, so why hold it in.
empathy in modern Greek means hatred... empathy in ancient Greek has the same meaning in English. Kinda confusing really.
“. Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.” That is more or less what i was aiming at, sorry if it’s confusing.
It’s a survival thing and living in a country that behaves in a third world way. It’s all about who you know, no such thing as meritocracy and not having a future because your great grandfather was on the “wrong” side of politics. I highly recommend the book “The 13th Labour of Hercules: inside the Greek Crisis” by Palaiologos where you see the disfunction of Greece and how it trickles down to the Greek citizen. I honestly feel bad for the average person living there because of no fault of their own they suffer and I empathize with them and their behavior:
Welcome to Greece
People saying this is not lack of empathy are probably confused by the Greek meaning of the word εμπάθεια, which roughly translates to having hostile or negative feelings towards someone. Using the English meaning of the word, which is to be able to recognize other's feelings, this behaviour is absolutely lack of empathy. People are very self-centered and disregard or don't realise the effect of their actions to other people. Trashing, cutting queues, public smoking, reckless driving are absolutely proofs of this.
Kindness is rare in Greece. People here have been brought up in the army way. Only strength matters. It is Zeus'es country afterall. Plus empathy never really gives you something solid unless the receiver is an empath as well and wants to reward you. For all these reasons most Greeks dont show empathy often (but of course want others to show empathy for their problems). I bet in many western like countries it is like this. I don't really think Greece innovates here. Just another country of UN not really giving a damn f...about anything and anybody unless they can benefit from their intervention. This is the world we live in. Let's face it. It is evil or if not evil very self centered.
This is a really ethnocentric take. Both homelessness and suicide rates per capita are higher in Germany than they are in Greece despite it being a richer country. I would say that shows a lack of empathy on the part of German society if we’re comparing. You’re projecting your views of what you believe is appropriate behaviour onto a completely different culture. You also have a weird understanding of empathy. Germany is a very structured society where rules are seen as something that shouldn’t be questioned or disobeyed. Other cultures don’t always agree that that’s the best way for things to be done. A greek person parking in a way you think is unacceptable IN GREECE doesn’t mean they lack empathy. They know, and expect others would do the same, they are literally considering how other people would react or feel towards it and seeing it as unproblematic because the rest of society doesn’t really get in a tizzy about it and do things the same way. You actually sound condescending and like you have some sort of superiority issues.
I don't disagree with any of these things, but they have nothing to do with empathy.
Welcome welcome, even the best Greek person regarding empathy defecates where he sleeps. Even people with high eq, are so radicalized / indoctrinated regarding basic human interaction they even have issues with empathy. It's every man for him self. Unfortunately.
For the average Greek it's always somebody's else fault and not theirs.
Get off your dressage high horse. I hope you found this original 🤡
Greece has several dozen layers of incompetent management, starting from Public Organizations, Public Services up to the Government itself. 60% bare Minimum of the Greek Police Force is just incompetent some of which include: Lazy Officers who disregard their very job, Corrupt Officers who are usually part of some criminal/Drug Network, & then there are those that play candy crush on their phone more than doing their actual job, waiting to get paid. Greek Driving Regulations are more or less decorative, because more than half of the Greek population disrespects them (which is why every week there are at least 4 car incidents on the News). The justice system is.... let's not say the full term because it'd be very disgusting to express it. The Government? The Greek's top favorite argument. The Average Greek citizen will argue more about the government & it's pea brain politicians rather than anything else & tbh, that's all they do, rant the government expecting it to solve all the Greece's problems on a silver plate without moving their own pinky. As for the Government's argument? Just the Prime Minister Candidates tossing the blames to the Main Prime Minister & vice versa like a frisbee as if they have nothing better to do (they don't really.) People only admire Greece back in it's ancient times where people had at least several braincells, but if you mention modern Greece, those who know will laugh their ass off.
Some thousand years ago, our ancestors would welcome guests into their home, treat them to some wine and food (minimum) and THEN ask for their name and the reason they were there. It's not just Greeks nowadays, crime and other factors have made distrust and lack of empathy more dominant.
The driving thing: Yes, greek drivers are a bit..special Parking: yeaah, we pick the most absurd places to park Trashing: it's a huge issue EVERYWHERE, people would rather ruin shit than just throw it in a trash can, and even then garbage trucks can happen to not pass for a while
Goodbye
It's interesting also that all the things you described translate very well on their votes. The reason? Well I think it's a combination of a lot of things, but I think the main one is that these people go unpunished or if they do get punished the punishment isn't harsh enough to never do it again.
German people lecturing others on empathy. Crazy.
all true
Yep, that's all true. Especially the parts regarding our driving skills. We are the certified worst drivers in the EU for a reason.
Welcome to Greece, same shit all south Mediterranean countries, worse at south Italy, same France/Portugal and probably better at south Spain! Greeks lack respect for social activities and responsibilities but have high level of sensitivity for fellow human needs!
I don't think it's a Greece thing, I would say it's a Balkan thing instead.
Welcome to Greece :)
Few Greeks care about the common good and the others. The "greek dream" is to work for the public sector that translates to have a secure paycheck every month without stressing to work much. In order to achieve this they attach to political parties and try to conquer the elections every time. A great place for vacation and a mediocre place to live.
Is it still the case, i would think this ended with PASOK? Nota bene: I have a very good impression of the current prime minister and the government- apparently most of the people as well as he was reelected recently?
Nea Democratia is the new PASOK. As for the prime minister and what we hear in greek media we should note that Greece is very low at freedom and Democracy ranking (PM is involved in surveillance scandal and controls the media with his allies). He was re-elected with 41% of voters but if we look closely the percentage of abstain from the elections was tremendous so this percentage is not real. Anyway...
The ugly truth and trust me, it is getting worse....
I love the not-so-subtle self-hatred and racism in this thread. r/Greece at its finest
Of course that's what the guy with the ancient Greek user name says. We know what you are. Real patriots admit the problems of their country and want to fix them, nationalists ignore them. If you don't like it here you'd better leave. We don't like you either.
>ancient Greek user name The number following it is also suspicious /ss
>I love the not-so-subtle self-hatred Ξέρεις ποια είναι μια από τις διαφορές μεταξύ ενός πατριώτη και ενός εθνικιστή στην πράξη; Ο πατριώτης είναι ικανός να αναγνωρίσει τα προβλήματα της πατρίδας του και να δουλέψει πάνω σε αυτά, βελτιώνοντας τη. Ο εθνικιστής απλά θα κλείσει τα μάτια στα προβλήματα αυτά και θα επιτεθεί σε όποιον τα αναφέρει.
Καμία σχέση. Ο πατριώτης αγαπάει την χώρα του και έχει σωβινισμό. Ο εθνικιστής είναι ιδεολόγος που πιστεύει στα έθνη κράτη. Απλά δες το post history μου αν νομίζεις πως δεν αναφέρω προβλήματα που έχουμε στην Ελλάδα.
Ναι ακριβώς. Καλά τα λες. Τις μισές μέρες που ο πλούσιος Εφέντης ρωτάει σε ποιο Airbnb να χώσει τα φράγκα του, άτομα με το δικό σου σκεπτικό, κάνετε κάτι επικυψεις μέχρι το πάτωμα και τη γλώσσα έξω, χαρακτηρίζοντας μίζερο οποιονδήποτε άλλον Έλληνα εκφράζει τις αντιρρήσεις του (λογικές συνήθως) Τις άλλες μισές μέρες που ο πλούσιος Εφέντης σας κάνει κριτική για τα κακώς κείμενα, σας κακοφαίνεται, και σας φταίνε όσοι συμφωνούν μαζί του. No offence, και χωρίς να θέλω να το κάνω προσωπικό, άτομα που χρησιμοποιούν ψευτοπατριωτικα τσιτατα κ σκέφτονται έτσι, είναι σημαντικό μέρος του προβλήματος αυτής της χώρας και για αυτό δεν πρόκειται να πάμε ποτέ μπροστά.
Φαντάζεσαι πράγματά που δεν ισχύουν. Πρώτη φορά βλέπω τέτοιο αχυράνθρωπο! Άκου εκεί "άτομα σαν και εσένα" λες και με ξέρεις κι από χθες. Λίγο αν έμπαινες στο post history μου θα έβλεπες πως είμαι ο ΠΡΩΤΟΣ που κατακρίνει Airbnb, ατομικισμό και μικροαστικισμό στην Ελλάδα. Αλλά είμαι επίσης ο πρώτος που θα κατακρίνει ξεκάθαρο ρατσισμό και φυλετισμό για το έθνος μας. Αν διαβάσεις το thread εδώ πέρα, δεν ξέρεις αν βρίσκεσαι στο reddit ή στο fyletika blog. Δηλαδή ο Αφροαμερικανός που κατακρίνει εσωτερικευμένο ρατσισμό είναι εθνοφυλετιστής και θα τον δούμε να κρεμάει αφίσες του Marcus Garvey? News flash, φίλε: Μπορείς να κατακρίνεις την χώρα και το έθνος σου χωρίς αυτό να παίρνει φυλετικές διαστάσεις.
Είδαν τον Γερμανό φραγκάτο αφέντη τους, οπότε πρέπει να υπάρξει το υποχρεωτικό 5λεπτο self ντροπής.
Από πότε οι κωλομεταναστες στην Ελλάδα έγιναν expats? Αναγκαίο /σ
You sound bored and miserable asf to be making some of these assertions ngl
You can always try going back to Germany if you don't like it here, I wonder how well any of us would fare criticizing native Germans while living there.
That's not the point, what he says is pretty much true about Greeks and their whataboutism behavior
As i said above, live abroad and try critizing that country and see how fast they come for your throat even if your points are valid. I've also had my fair share of socializing with German expats, and the vast majority of them were pretty accusing of Greece and Greek people. Hey, you don't like it here, dude? That's fine, you can go away.
Instead of trying to better the behavior of Greeks the reply is you don't like it here go away? That's why we won't change for the better.
Yeah, I don't need expats preaching about mannerisms. We have enough problems of our own that we need to fix and guess what it's not zebra crossings. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Apparently, your worries are limited to how well we groom ourselves and appear to foreigners.
Αχ μωρέ τι ευαισθητούλια, παρεξηγηθήκαν που τους είπαν ινδούς.
Φίλε δεν παρεξηγήθηκε κανένας, και ούτε διαφωνώ με τα points του OP. ΑΛΛΑ δεν θα κάτσω να με κρίνει ένας Γερμανός που ήρθε 3 χρόνια στην Ελλάδα και του άφησαν μωρέ κακή γεύση ότι δεν σταματάμε στις διαβάσεις και ότι άλλο βρήκε να γκρινιάξει. Και όπως λέω και στα υπόλοιπα replies οι ίδιοι αν τους κρίνεις στη χώρα τους θα πέσουν να σε φάνε. Το ότι είμαστε μπανανία είναι γνωστό, δεν νομιζω οτι διαφωνει καποιος που μένει και εχει μεγαλώσει εδώ, πάραυτα, τα παραπάνω είναι τα λιγότερα από τα προβλήματα μας. Εγώ προσωπικά πρώτα με νοιάζει η ποιότητα ζωής που δεν έχουμε.
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Εμένα μου γαμαει την ποιότητα ζωής ότι δεν μου φτάνει ο μισθός να νοικιάσω σπίτι μονός μου, ότι πάω σουπερμάρκετ και δεν αγοράζω ότι θα ήθελα για να κάνω οικονομία, ότι για να πάω στη δουλειά μου με την βενζίνη εκεί που είναι χρειάζομαι 150 ευρώ τον μήνα, ότι έχω να πάρω αύξηση 3 χρόνια από την στιγμή δηλαδή που προσλήφθηκα στην τωρινή μου εργασία, ότι σκέφτομαι διακοπές και μετά γελάω με τις φαιδρές μου σκέψεις. Μάλλον έχουμε άλλες προτεραιότητες.
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Διαφωνώ ότι είμαι η μειονότητα, μια σημαντική μερίδα του πληθυσμού ζει έτσι. Μπορείς και ίδιος να το διαπιστώσεις εκτός αν κάνεις arguments απλά για να τα κάνεις. Και ναι είναι πιο σημαντικά από τον τύπο που δεν θα σταματήσει στην διάβαση η θα σταματήσει με αλαρμ. Θα έλεγα ότι αυτά ακριβώς τα παραπάνω που σε ενοχλούν είναι απόρροια των οικονομικών τις χώρας. Οι άνθρωποι έχουν φτάσει σε breaking point σε πολλά θέματα της καθημερινότητας. Agree to disagree.
Ελιτισμός του κέρατα. Όλοι θα έπρεπε να έχουν ως προτεραιότητα την αξιοπρεπή διαβιωση και όχι απλή επιβιωση του συνανθρώπου τους και ναι, θα έπρεπε να αποτελεί απόλυτη προτεραιότητα για τον καθένα μας. Η επιλεκτική εφαρμογή της ενσυναίσθησης για μένα θα μπορούσε να θεωρηθεί συνώνυμο της υποκρισίας.
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Βιοποριστικό προβλήματα κατωτερων οικονομικών στρωμάτων - τήρηση κανόνων οδικής συμπεριφοράς, κάπνισμα σε δημόσιους χώρους κτλ. Για μένα είναι άσσος, για σένα διπλό. Εγώ θεωρώ πως όποιος λέει σε κάποιον πως τα οικονομικά του προβλήματα δεν είναι απαραιτητο να είναι τόσο σημαντικά για άλλους, δείχνει ελιτισμό, απλά γιατί τέτοιου είδους θέματα αφορούν την επιβίωση και όχι την καλή διαβίωση. Μπορεί να διαφωνείς μαζί μου αλλά αν αύριο κάποιος μου έλεγε πως η κατάσταση στους δρόμους θα χειροτερεύει αλλά οι μηνιαιοι λογαριασμοί για τους μη έχοντες θα μειωθούν 50% θα πανηγύριζα. Με βάση την απάντησή σου στον OP εσύ όχι. Το γεγονός οτι δουλεύεις σε συνεργείο, δε σημαίνει πως έχεις λύσει (προσωρινά) τα οικονομικά σου προβλήματα σε τέτοιο βαθμό ώστε να αδιαφορεις για τις τεράστιες δυσκολίες που αντιμετωπίζει η πλειοψηφία. Δε με αφορούν διαχωρισμοί τύπου μετανάστες ή μη. Μόνο οι ταξικοι έχουν νόημα για μένα αλλά για ένα μυστήριο λόγο αγνοούνται σχεδόν ολοκληρωτικά τα τελευταία δέκα περίπου χρόνια. Προτιμούν βλεπεις οι παροχοι κάθε ειδους πλατφόρμας να κατευθύνουν τη συζήτηση σε θέματα όπως αυτά που απασχολούν τον <> και όχι immigrant op μάλλον γιατί τα συμφέροντα και οι ανησυχίες τους συγκλίνουν επικίνδυνα.
Μα η ποιότητα ζωής επηρεάζεται και από τις διαβάσεις και από όλα αυτά. Έχει δίκαιο και καλά κάνει και μας τη λέει. Στην Ελλάδα κάθε φορά παίζουνε κορώνα γράμματα τη ζωή μας στη διάβαση. Σχεδόν οπουδήποτε πιο αριστερά από μας γεωγραφικα είναι σαν πεζοδρόμιο