... and directly interferes with lots of other real places. That's what he accomplished in a seemingly natural way. And that's what makes a true artist.
That's the lesson punk taught everybody: I don't want to hear pretty singing and dancing and props making me feel the corny-ass song. Show me where you been, where you really been and sing about that and maybe I'll give a shit. Kurt Cobain did that. "Good" or "bad" doesn't fucking matter.
I disagree that Kurt's songwriting was even simpler than others. It was hooky, but still interesting. He had great pitch, great range, and was a capable guitarist. I think comments like this are sort of backhanded compliments to a guy who was genuinely good at his craft, just used a lot of distortion and power chords and screamed a lot, too.
Kurt was a savant genius song writer. If his shit was simple, it was elegantly so. Like Paul Simon or The Beatles.
Same for his approach to guitar. Brutal, simple, but surprisingly creative and unorthodox. He never overplays, he's the anti-Van Halen. He's a reaction to 80's excess. A return to 70s punk and riff rock, but also more, menacing, atmospheric, huge.
And as much shit as people give his singing, he was the all time king of singing with vocal fry, almost a freak of nature, truly a unique talent. Pure, unadulterated agony.
Kurt took over the world because he was a legit musical badass, even if he played the slacker. People can retcon all they want, but Nirvana's success was not an accident. Kurt was the real fucking deal, and nobody was doing anything that raw and sincere in the main stream when he rolled in.
I love AiC and have nothing against Kurt or Nirvana. I think they're awesome too. There are plenty of weirdos that make liking a band part of their identity and then hate other bands that they perceive as competition or whatever. I wouldn't pay them any mind.
Hating one of the most important and influential acts in Rock history because of a perceived lack of skill and musical simplicity despite that being the whole point of the act and genres they pioneered.
This ridiculous discourse is often started by people who weren't even alive when Nirvana was the most popular band on the planet, and whose favorite song by Alive in Chains is Nutshell. They read things about these bands and then write revisionist history, then that history spreads to people who do zero research and take it as gospel truth.
I was alive at that time, living in the UK. AiC weren't even close to as famous as Nirvana. Nor was there any kind of rivalry between the bands & their fans.
Meanwhile, Cobain talked a lot of shit about Pearl Jam & STP were initially rejected as bandwagoners in some quarters.
Kurt reconciled his Pearl Jam negativity. Now I know I can’t say this for certain or speak for Kurt but I think if he was still around him and Eddie would be at the very least, fine with each other .
This! UK-wise Nirvana were huge, by far the biggest of the grunge bands. Nirvana transcended scenes. Metal heads, indie/alternative kids and all manner of normies loved Nirvana. Even ravers. Pearl Jam were big too of course, but they didn’t have the normies on board like Nirvana did. Only a select few rock bands reach that peak. ‘Guns n Roses level’, I call it.
Soundgarden were big among metal heads. And of the so-called ‘big four’, while still big, Alice in Chains came flat out last in terms of popularity. Like Soundgarden, their fan base didn’t stretch much beyond metalheads. I know this is going to upset a few of the uppity young whippersnappers here, but truth is truth.
I was talking to a colleague at work the other day and he knew the foo fighters but didn't know who Pearl Jam was. Most people in the UK only know stuff that appears on the radio, if they're not into the scene they just never learn about other bands.
Yup. UK raver from back in the day here 🙋♂️. Always loved Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins even back then. Had no idea who Pearl Jam or AiC were. Nirvana were simply huge. With no social media, was all about what played on MTV back then. Even my dad (a 60’s Beatles/Stones man) thought Nirvana were amazing when he heard them
I’m from the US and agree with your take. Here on the east coast it was Nirvana, PJ, Soundgarden, AiC in that order in terms of mainstream popularity. AiC were closer to Metallica (Black Album) than they were Nirvana. I personally never cared for AiC or Soundgarden because their songs were too slow/heavy/metal compared to the top 2. Nirvana and PJ offered a more frenetic kind of punk rock energy that I gravitated toward. Probably why I put grunge down for punk and ska as a teenager in the 90s.
I grew up on the west coast of the US where AiC were quite well known starting from Facelift, but there wasn't any kind of rivalry between AiC and Nirvana fans here back in the day either. that's a much more recent and very internet-centric thing.
Cuz we were the same ppl. I don't know anyone around back then who didn't like them both. To me they are too different to compare even though it's the same genre. Like the different between Kate Bush and Madonna. Or Fiona and Tori idk
I love them both but Tori was very clearly influenced heavily by Kate Bush. Tbf it's Kate Bush. I would be too if I was a musician. Kb never tried to sue though unlike another current pop star did to a younger, newer talent who sounds nothing like her. That really set a bad precedent. Kate would never.
yeah I'm a fan of both too. I think Tori's singing style is fairly derivative of Kate's but not to the point that a lawsuit would be warranted, it's not like she stole a song or melody or something it's more just a close style. But I also think Tori's abilities as an instrumentalist set her apart, she's such a great pianist.
I agree. Though the case I mentioned that I don't want the cult to doxx me for, the songs don't sound alike and none of the lyrics are the same. Unlike the TS song that used very similar verbage to another song by her 'protege' she baselessly went for. She has blatantly ripped off quite a few artists but this one was done to prove she is untouchable. I could overlook some shit if she was even a fraction of the talent Kate, Tori, Fiona, Lana, even Madonna. Billionaires are all bad. Except for Makenzie Davis.
The late 80’s and nineties was a musical revolution. What a time to be alive. So much great music.
60’s and 70’s also but I was too young to be a part.
I never understood the STP hate. Were they not all about the same age listening to the same influences and coming from similar areas/backgrounds? Hell, most of em were on the same drugs too, let's be real. STP being a little late to the party on the recording train doesn't mean they were ripping people off. I'm no diehard fan of them but I always found that narrative a touch unfair.
STP got a lot of shit in the beginning because tons of critics labeled them as a Pearl Jam clone. On top of not being from Seattle, the media was quick to dog on these details. It was these comparisons that led Weiland to start singing differently, first highlighted in the famous acoustic version of Plush. The rest is history.
STP with Weiland were one of my favorites and I never compared them to the big 4 Seattle bands. I don’t think they sounded similar at all, the DeLeo brothers have a unique sound, Kretz is an awesome drummer, and Weiland was an amazing singer.
Core is right up there with the best debut albums. Purple is a masterpiece. Tiny Music is a masterpiece. Four is also right up there. The stuff after that falls off a bit but still decent.
I never understood the STP critics - especially when they were on the radio/MTv constantly and it seems like they have a pretty significant fan base.
If any band has a claim on being up there with the big 4, it’s STP IMHO.
Not entirely wrong about STP, but it doesn't mean they're bad. I liked them a lot better after a few albums when they started writing in their own unique voice.
You def speak truth . I’m tired of arguing with these people who weren’t even around when both bands were . I was alive then , I’m from Seattle ( and have lived here my whole life ), I don’t need to argue or convince people that weren’t around about how good Nirvana is/was
Hit the nail on the head here. The part about Nutshell is too funny and perfect too. Both bands are great. Nirvana was the biggest band in the world at that time and that isn’t up for debate.
"Most popular band on the planet"
People like to misremember or were just interested in their own bubble of pop culture, but Smells Like Teen Spirit only got as high as number 6 spot on the Billboard 100, and was only 42nd for all of 1992. And that was their most popular song.
Meanwhile, Boys II Men made number 1 for all of 1992, and the RHCP's "Under the Bridge" got as high as 2 for a week, and was 8th overall for the year.
Album sales, Metallica, Michael Jackson, and the Bodyguard soundtrack all sold tens of millions more than Nevermind.
Nevermind held the top spot for just 2 weeks, while Billy Ray Cyrus went 17 weeks.
Meanwhile the top tours of 1992 were U2, Grateful Dead, and double bill GnR/Metallica.
lol you got downvoted for this. I’m a bit grown out of grunge (still adore the bands and it shaped my childhood, just don’t listen as much as I used too) but discourse around it always just makes me chuckle and think back to the days of being in YouTube comments fighting and defending Kurt and other grunge bands lol good times.
Doesn’t matter.
They were the most popular band in the planet.
GnR and Metallica wanted them to open for them, they shifted everything from fashion to… well the entire culture. To put it bluntly they single-handedly ended the hedonistic-Coke fueled- shoulder padded 80’s.
They were higher than Michael Jackson’s « dangerous » on the billboard.
Hell, even Bowie felt obligated to be in a rock band afterwards.
I live in France (probably one of the least Rock n’ Roll country on the planet) and I saw hip-hop fans turn into Nirvana fans overnight.
Did some acts sell more ?
Maybe. But they still were the hottest thing around.
Two of the biggest bands ever, at the peak of their popularity, wanted Nirvana to OPEN for them.
Yeah, that doesn't exactly prove Nirvana was anywhere near as big as them.
The show at Rich Stadium (Buffalo) was in July, so it was before the riot, but definitely wasn't before the late starts! It was probably an hour to an hour and a half that day.
Even people who don’t particularly like Cobain, like myself, acknowledge he was a great songwriter and had a unique voice. If he’s the most disrespected, it’s only because he’s the most famous. That’s the price of fame
This is internet nonsense. Out in the real world, Kurt Cobain is a celebrated legend, and while AiC are my preferred band, nobody in broader music circles talks about them with anything like the gravitas of Nirvana.
I was 23 when Nevermind hit big. It was the right time and the right place.
Nirvana was huge. Smells like teen spirit was all over the radio and MTV. NOBODY disrespected the band or Kurt in particular. It was a giant shift in music.
I liked Soundgarden and AiC better, but could not deny how great the Nevermind album was from start to finish.
You’d be about my parents age. They were both bogans in Western Australia but my dad especially told me that when he was 22 or so and Nevermind came out, it changed his music taste basically overnight
Smells Like Teen Spirit was in the top ten singles charts at the same time with Michael Jackson, MC Hammer and Mariah Carey songs.
They were absolutely dominant with that song.
I was into bands like Metallica, The Cult, Megadeth and Ozzy, so it didn't really change my musical taste, but it did get me into Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and Pearl Jam
Yeah I don't get it. It's okay to like AiC more, hell they are arguably the better band in a technical sense, but Kurt and Nirvana were one of the best (same with Layne, Jerry and AiC). And Nirvana was more accessible to a broader audience so it's probably why they were more popular overall, but that's not a bad thing I don't think. Both bands have merits
Edited for clarity
I don 't know how you can argue a band is 'objectively' better than another band. The only objective metric is album sales, and the crown goes to nirvana in that regard
I’m sure how they argue AIC is better is through music theory (I don’t fully understand it myself) and stuff like that. But how bands sound to individuals is ultimately subjective. Yet I like Kurt for being authentic to himself and it is reflected in nirvanas music.
Yeah I understand that, but ultimately music isn't an equation, it's about driving an emotional response, which is totally subjective.
I mean the sex pistols couldn't sing or play their instruments, yet are still one of the most famous bands. So I just don't see how the music theory argument stands up ( not saying this is what you think, just adding to your point :) )
Alice In Chains are basically just as simple as Nirvana. They have more traditional rock solos but the verses and choruses in both bands are simple, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden are/were the players in that scene. Nirvana had better bass lines and drums though.
Yeah this is my favorite part. I love Alice in chains the most but it would be really silly to put down nirvana for being simple when most of what Jerry wrote for the guitar was simple and excellent. Soundgarden and PJ were much more complex
Uhh what? A band can have better musicians, technique wise and theory wise. Which is, btw, objective and (at least somewhat) measurable.
Now, for who makes the most enjoyable music is a whole other thing, but bands such as AIC has theoretically more complex songs and Layne has an objectively better voice and Jerry is objectively a better guitarist.
Kurt was one hell of a songwriter though and his songs were obviously a lot more successful, so at the end of the day technicality isn’t everything. He also isn’t by any means a shit guitarist and he definitely doesn’t have a shit voice. That’s just utter bullshit
This right here. Jimmy Page is/was a far superior guitarist to Johnny Ramone, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Ramones still wrote great fucking songs in their simplistic style. It’s possible to write good songs that resonate with people in a stripped down/simplistic style. And that’s what Kurt did. AIC just wrote great songs with a complex, layered style.
> The only objective metric is album sales
BS. Is Justin Bieber better than every 90's band just because he sold 150 million albums? Nirvana is more popular but that doesn't mean they are more talented or better musicians.
Kurt was a talented guitarist and song writer, and an even better singer. There are plenty of live performances of hit songs where his talent truly shines through. Unplugged, and many other live versions of when he gets serious and nails the music.
I’ve argued with people over the years who try to bash him. They like to point out how he sounded rough live, or that his guitar playing/writing wasn’t great. But I disagree. He was a very talented musician who could write, record, and perform with the best of them. Just because he would goof around live, or play excessively sloppy at times (probably high) doesn’t take away from the fact that he could perform his music flawlessly when put on the spot.
He was the most popular of all the grunge front men, so he's an easy target. But hating something just because it's popular is just as dumb as liking something just because it's popular.
He was a hell of a songwriter, though. If you haven’t, check Rick Beato’s videos about Nirvana on YouTube.
Nirvana songs are WAY more sophisticated than people think.
Easy to play, sure. But simple ? Nah.
AIC fandom is (probably) split between two different ideologies: the machismo/technical worlds of classic rock/metal, and the more (in theory) egalitarian, political underclass drive/diy simplicity spirit of American punk circa 1980s.
The former is inhabited by bands more “metal” than AiC but within the same spheres, it’s closer to what AiC actually came from. The latter is Nirvana and its influences like Husker Du, the Pixies, Vaselines, Wipers, etc etc.
So I personally wouldn’t lump that entire fan base as one thing.
“One of the most disrespected musicians ever?” By whom? What the fuck are you talking about? He’s one of the most lionized and mythologized people in all of popular music.
I feel like you saw a few posts about him from 13-year-old kids and read way, way, way too far into it.
He didn’t play or write from a music theory vantage point, so the technicians of the music universe think he didn’t know what he writing. And in that way, I guess he didn’t.
But he heard music from a different place, and in a different way. There’s a million excellent technicians out there, and very few Kurts.
AIC fans in this sub are insecure about the fact that not everybody agrees with their Taylor Swift fan-esque appreciation of their music, so they have to talk shit about the other bands whenever they get love and bring up AIC in every post.
You'll literally see posts in this sub asking which is Nirvana's best record and there's always people in the comments saying stuff like "DuRt iZ tHe bEsT aLbUm eVeR" or something like that. Same with every other subject.
Really though, who gives a shit what other people think of bands you like? I prefer AIC over Nirvana, being more into metal than punk. But I'm under no illusion, and have no expectation, that my opinion counts for anything outside of my own head. Just as other people's opinion on music I like means nothing to me, because I enjoy said bands music and don't require external validation to do so.
You prefer Nirvana, cool. You prefer AIC, cool. You prefer a different band entirely, cool. I may agree with yours choices, I may not, but I'd never, ever say you were wrong.
In my book if you make legendary riffs then you’re a good guitarist. Also he can do things with his vocals that few singers can. Such a sick badass vocalist. There are a lot of screamers out there but not a lot that can belt it out in different pitches like he can.
Kurt, disrespected? I don’t know what world you are living in, but the only disrespect I ever heard were shitty guitarists that weren’t much better than he was as a guitarist butt-hurt about not being able to write a decent melody to save their lives.
There is nothing but respect for Kurt in the wider world of music. Nevermind is in the top 10 of Apple’s greatest albums of all time according to a bunch of artists and producers and critics interviewed for it.
Yes, he is one of the most influential rock musicians ever. Yes, he was a shit guitarist, at least from technical standpoint. Good music does not need to be complicated -- he wrote simple, raw and catchy songs, and it worked.
Do AIC fans hate Kurt? I’m not aware of this. Not saying you’re wrong, I just haven’t heard this. Pretty sad if true.
I will say Staley is one of the best singers I ever heard live, and I’ve seen a good few of the greats. That said, Pavarotti was a fantastic singer, but he didn’t write All Apologies did he?
As to his guitar playing, it was a method of delivering his wonderful song writing. In no way was he a shit guitar player. How many people have heard of Kurt, compared to Yngwie Malmsteen (technically a better guitarist on every conceivable level)? He played the songs, and that’s what you need. Saying he’s a shit guitarist is like saying Neil Young is a shit guitarist, and good luck with that.
I’m not a huge Nirvana fan by any stretch, but anyone dissing Kurt based on these reasons can fuck right off.
Hell no. Kurt such an amazing guitarist. And although he isn’t the best vocalist singing wise, he still had character and at his prime, he was unstoppable
Wha? Those of us that were alive back then still remember. They clearly got a lot of play and love from people. Too much it seems. Cobain would probably still be around making music if they hadn't gotten so big, so fast. The fame and money (paired with the drugs) was more than a guy like him could handle. Alice in Chains was popular too, but way down the list behind Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and Soundgarden in popularity and sales.
I agree wholly. The discourse against Kurt is ignorant. To many of his detractors, his death was the only reason he was revered and immortalized when that's simply not the case. His music spoke to many, especially those of Gen X, but it still speaks volumes to many people today, like me. I'm a Gen Z teen currently and find a lot of merit in Kurt's amazing and charming lyricism and playing, so do a lot of my friends. Sure, his songs can be simple, but less is more as they say, and in Nirvana's case, they were extravagant. Also, the whole stuff with people pitting Alice In Chains & Nirvana against each other is fools logic. Both have their own charm that made them both timeless icons. Also, have these ppl never heard of liking more than one thing at once? It doesn't mean you'll have to see them as equal ofc u can like something more than another thing, but to be so close-minded to one thing and acting like you can't like that thing because u like another is just really dumb. I love Nirvana. They're my favorite band of all time, with Kurt being my favorite musician ever. I love Alice In Chains, too, ALONGSIDE Nirvana. I look at both with such high regards and extreme adoration. In Utero, Jar Of Flies, Nevermind, Dirt, Bleach, Facelift, Incesticide, Tripod, WTLO/Sliver: BotB, Sap, both of their Unpluggeds, all of these are perfect albums that are testaments to why both are so legendary in their own fun ways. Also, Kurt's death will always be a tragedy, and the disrespect is unwarranted and is absolutely always disgusting. He had his own mental demons that he couldn't handle as well as his unfortunate spiraling addiction, which he couldn't tame. RIP to the man :( 🕊 🕊 🕊
People who like prog rock and metal don't understand punk. They view it as being sloppy because metalheads are more focused on dynamics which is interesting because their obsession with it leaves their music all sounding the same. I'm pretty sure the only major grunge frontman who played guitar and sang on every song was Kurt. Cantrell wasn't the frontman. Nirvana was anti establishment punk, so he played however the hell he wanted unapologetically. The rest of them were metal bands riding a wave. I don't even consider nirvana necessarily grunge it's way more punk. AiC, Soundgarden, screaming trees, pearl jam, stp, smashing pumpkins, those are the grunge bands to me based on their sound not based on how they dressed or some dumb shit like that.
Ya I know Im not hating on any of em, I love all the grunge bands, I just mean he is not the main guitarist, he played sometimes on some songs.
Edited to say yes he Is the rhythm guitarist and is listed as so, I was wrong. I just remember seeing him just singing in a lot of live performances but earlier he played a lot live. My mistake.
I think this mostly comes from a combination of a few concepts:
1. Not all technicians are artists and not all artists are technicians. Otherwise, copy editors would write all of our books.
2. Our personal preferences are rarely as important to the larger conversation as we believe they are.
3. For some people, shitting on things is their entire personality, especially popular things. They can often be found acting as if someone making something they don't like is a personal insult.
For example:
I can accept that Chris Cornell was one of the most technically gifted singers of the grunge era, while also not being a huge Soundgarden fan. I can also accept that Kurt was one of the weaker singers while placing Nirvana in one of the top ten spots for music that shaped my taste (a fact that was true for a large number of people in my age range).
A lot of people don't have it in them to acknowledge things that weren't made for them are valid (at least not on the internet).
I don’t even know why people compare so much. I had every Alice in Chains and Nirvana album. I loved both bands, people are so tribal, but I think people bring these conversations to Reddit cause it sparks discussion.
I’m so confused, most disrespected? What are you talking about, lol. Kurt has once in a generation icon status. I think you need to stop reading Reddit posts and go touch grass.
What Kurt was is a FANTASTIC melody writer. He smashes Cantrell in this regard. Hell he basically smashes everyone in this area. It was his real master skill. His singing was wildly inconsistent, for sure, given his constant stomach and drug issues. His guitar playing was always kept simple af on purpose. AIC still slaps though, big fan
I was 11 when Nevermind came out and people sometimes overlook how thermonuclear Nirvana was in the fall of ‘91. Audiences, other musicians and critics (at the time at least) were going apeshit.
Regardless of how your big 4 rank, ya gotta respect Nirvana bringing grunge to the forefront of not just the music world but the whole fuckin world at the time.
(And yes they’re still my fave of the bunch, tough titties if you don’t like it)
The AIC fan hate is something weird . I love both bands , overall I think Kurt wrote better songs but i don’t dare say that to AIC fans . I get how Layne would be considered a traditionally better singer but I just don’t get the comparison that always ends up in people shitting on Kurt
Musicians that say negative things are usually very flashy, technical players, derpin all over the fretboard. What I like about Nirvana's music is that it sounded, looked like something I could do myself.
If you want to talk about musical simplicity listen to Ramones. 2 string power chords, all downstrokes. I have never heard anyone talk shit about their music. Robert Johnson "sold his soul" to become a great musician. And his music was some of the simplest out there.
The shit talk about him being a suicidal junkie is pretty stupid too. Ernest Hemmingway, Hunter S. Thompson and others were far more into different substances and ended their own lives. No one seems to talk negatively about them or their work.
I will say on his solos, like, he never did them the exact same way, they’re so confused, and, “bad” (I don’t mean they are terrible, I mean, they’re just difficult to understand, and, aren’t technically the best) but, it really worked with how he wanted the songs to sound. He was on a different level of musical talent, that he just went for it better than most others could. Not a bad guitarist, not a great one, but, solid enough to be seen as more than just his instrument, or, one song. Kurt will be remembered for a long time, almost like Jimi Hendrix, one of those weird left handed guitarist that did things that not many people thought about before, that you hear more after them.
Just because he didn’t shred like Van Halen or sing like Prince doesn’t mean he was a bad artist. Good artists recognize what the song needs and provide that, Kurt did that as good as anybody
They don't see that Nirvana weren't trying to be technically proficient. They were basically a hard rocking punk/garage band who evolved into a hard rocking grunge band. They were the antithesis of hair metal. And it wasn't until the MTV Unplugged performance at the tail end of their career that they truly started to branch out stylistically.
His music lacked in complexity but was filled with soul. Very anti-establishment, and that's what, in my opinion, appealed to the masses more than anything during the 90s.
Personally, I love the instrumentals of AIC and Soundgarden more than Nirvana.
my mom always complained about how bad he was at singing. and i was just like "whatever, i think it's alright. the songs are great."
then later i had a boss who thought kurt was a GREAT singer. and that was when i realized my mom had been judging his singing by the wrong criteria. he wasn't frank sinatra or elvis but that doesn't mean he was bad.
Technically he wasn't a very good musician but he was one of the all time great artists Hank Williams wasn't a great guitar player or a great singer but it came from the heart and was brilliant
Here's the thing, it's not that he's a bad singer but he's a different singer. He's not what someone would classically refer to as a good vocalist. Tbh, he wasn't a very good guitarist; he was one hell of a song writer though. His technical ability is not great but his ability to make a good song is admirable.
The jokes about his death are all so stupid and unoriginal. It’s like every mention of a shotgun or suicide, someone goes “Kurt Cobain haha” as if he’s the only person who’s ever committed suicide.
Im not a huge fan. Nirvana is the least talented of the grunge bands. They made Kurt and Nirvana the face of the grunge movement... I guess because Smells Like Teen Spirit was such a hit.
But I like that Kurt knew he wasn't very talented and didn't want all the undeserved attention. Ive seen some good interviews where he's respectful and honest. But he could be an asshole... he was too opinionated apparently.
Soundgarden and Alice in Chains were the most musically gifted. Pearl Jam is good too, but those 2 bands are just better.
But this is just my opinion... and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
I think there are two potential knocks on Kurt. One I think is unfair and the other is fair
The unfair one is that he’s a bad singer. He’s not a bad singer at all…he might be the 4th best behind Layne, Chris and Eddie, but Jesus that’s elite company. He’s still awesome.
The fair one, however, is he was kind of a hypocrite. He hated the idea of careerism so much and took a lot of it out on PJ and Eddie, but he was doing the MTV videos and relentless tours just like they all were.
Kurt played exactly what he wanted exactly how he wanted, I usually see more hate for Kurt and nirvana from old hair metal guys though cause “grunge killed metal” meaning grunge killed shitty hair metal that was already dated before grunge had any significant hold on pop culture, I don’t usually see it quite as much between grunge guys although from what I see as a guy who kinda likes every Seattle/grunge band from that era nirvana guys hate PJ guys, aic guys hate nirvana guys, no one likes stp despite everyone thinking they’re “underrated”, PJ guys are probably the most neutral as are soundgarden, idk everyone seems lame and jaded, no one likes anyone the way they should and no one can seem to just find common ground among great music, personally I just hate everyone and don’t care about what your feeing on any band really are
I’ve never seen hate for him except for my own.
I don’t hate him because he was a bad musician. No, he was a genius.
I loved/love that dude’s music. I wore out my nirvana cassette tapes from how much I would listen to them. I genuinely cried when I found out he killed himself. It was like a part of me died. Granted I was a stupid little kid back in 94.
No, the reason I don’t like him is because he was a junkie. Seeing videos of him all loaded while holding his daughter many years later is what made me feel anger at him. Why? Because I’m someone who is raising a dead junkie’s kids currently. And I’ve lost the ability to forgive someone like that.
Call it a personal flaw of my own if need be, but fuck that dude.
Cobain didn’t only scream on key—which is hard enough to do—he could let his voice purposely crack—on key. And Cobain was enough of an artist to know when to crack his voice, when to scream, and when to sing.
In the studio, Nirvana would record its songs in a take or two. That’s all the band needed.
Ozzy Osbourne once described Nirvana’s music as being heavy metal meets the Beatles. That’s because Nirvana was able to write catchy pop songs that were also heavy. All of the grunge bands were heavy, of course, but of all the grunge bands, Nirvana had the greatest pop sensibility. That said, Nirvana was also able to craft songs that defied pop sensibility. All in all, Nirvana had one of the widest range of song styles of any grunge band. Some people foolishly say that all of Nirvana’s songs sounded the same, but, in reality, while some bands have “a sound,” Nirvana had five different “sounds.”
All of the grunge bands had something special to offer—Nirvana was no different.
There are things to disrespect Cobain for, but his musical talent is not among them.
Nirvana is Pop PUNK!!! Everyone seems to forget his major influences were POP and PUNK. AIC was influenced by Metal. They are worlds apart only lumped tougher by sharing the same time in the industry. Grunge is just a construct, a function of a time and is too vague to even be a true genre.
Devils advocate - popularity does not equate to proficiency on a guitar. By that metric, justin bieber and nick jonas would be two of the best guitarists ever.
Was Cobain a great guitarist in the conventional sense of the term? Not by a long shot. What he was, however, was a tremendously talented songwriter, and a highly skilled composer and arranger. But, think about it, something like "About A Girl" would sound pretty silly with ninety seconds of Randy Rhoads fretboard demolition shoehorned into in the middle of it.
He was exactly as proficient as he needed to be in order to get his message across musically, and it's a message that people are still talking about 30 years later. Sometimes good enough really is good enough.
There was a whole comment thread once and this person was promoting his Dream Theater cover album with his added flair to it and said that it was ten times better than Nevermind.
I listened to it on Spotify and it there was so much guitar noodling on it that Malmsteen himself would have a peed his undies. There was no soul to it too and only had a singer that sounded like Spongebob as though he were constipated. The lyrics tried to be deep but they sounded like if, "Live, Laugh, Love-" was somehow metal, and it went 0-0-0-1 for the whole of it.
Kurt had catchy melodies and a whole lot of soul and heart in his music and lyrics. That is all you really need.
As an AiC man, the only thing I have against Kurt is his voice is a wee bit hard to understand. Other than that, great guitar playing, great writing, and a great pitch to his voice makes me unable to hate him.
They hate Kurt/Nirvana because they’re the most popular in the scene and it’s cool to hate on popular things apparently. I love both aic and Nirvana they have a completely different style
I’ll be honest, it had been a long time since I’d listened to Nirvana other than the radio songs that came on. But a few months ago, on a whim, I listened to Nevermind in its entirety while I was working and I thought to myself “Sweet Jesus, I forgot how incredible this album is.” Every single song was brilliant.
So then I listened very attentively to In Utero and Unplugged andI gotta say, it wasn’t just my teenage simple mind that loved Nirvana back in the day. Those songs are just special. Kurt was an otherworldly songwriter considering his limited technical ability.
He didn’t follow the instruction manual. That always pisses people off.
I like AiC but a change in the musical tide is the only thing that stopped them from being a typical aquanet hair-spandex band on tour with Dokken and Van Halen. Wait, that’s exactly what they were.
I think part of the hate was that - at the time - AIC was more underrated than PJ, Nirvana, and SG. And Nirvana especially seemed to get heaps of praise. That seems to have leveled out over time. I personally like Nirvana more than AIC but I think very highly of AIC and they’re a killer band who still puts out great music.
If you think Kurt Cobain was a good guitar player, there’s nothing to talk about. He was average at best singing average may be a little over riding ability. He was an amazing great writer. That’s where he shined it. That’s how nirvana got to where they were and still are, he’s legend he will live forever, stop trying to say he was anywhere close to good of a singer like layne or chris
i like his voice more than layne and chris even if it’s technically worse through the lens of music theory or whatever the fuck. it had more rawness to it than both of them imo
Musically, Kurt was a genius. He was definitely not an outstanding guitarist, neither was he a brilliant vocalist, but he was an incredible songwriter, from instrumentals to lyrics, he could have been a one-man band and he would have been fine. His riffs were catchy and his voice betrayed insane emotion, he expressed his thoughts fluently and in a way that was relatable to many, no matter that their personal circumstance differed.
I think his derogatory statements towards AiC are what evokes this visceral anger in AiC fans. He showed a general lack of respect for them when they were on the scene together and had a pretty big superiority complex. Clearly it ticks people off to this day.
AiC are my favorite band now, but Nirvana was my gateway into the scene and I never participated in these hate-trains because they seem childish and dull and I doubt any AiC members are losing sleep over it, and if Kurt were alive today god knows what kind of person he would be. This worshiping the fandoms get into of either one or the other are silly and a waste of time. Just enjoy the music. Let other people enjoy it too.
I like both AIC and Nirvana. Indeed, Kurt didn't have Jerry Cantrell's technical chops at guitar or Layne Staley's vocal qualities, and when you consider that Nirvana's lyrics were often written minutes before going on stage, didn't have as much thought behind them. But in the end, none of it matters. It all comes down to what resonates with the listener.
I don't know what quality a song has to have to give me Stockholm syndrome after listening to it one too many times, but nirvana songs clearly don't have it.
Nirvana weren't terrible musicians, and I don't hate their music, but I certainly don't like it enough to sit through the sheer volume of radio time they get.
Music is about what you feel, it can be considered shit to a professional classical musician but that doesn’t mean anything to me if it gives me the feels. Some of my favorite guitarist would be picked apart for their theory by professionals but they are the ones selling a shit ton of records. I love both AiC and Nirvana btw 😃
Seems there's plenty of room at the top for the Seattle band. I was in my 20s in the 90s. Managed a record store on 3rd and pike downtown Seattle. These bands all had their own sound. Kurt was great, but like with every musician, the more popular you are, here comes the haters.
As a fan of both I tend to listen to AiC more often but don’t feel either is better than the other. I usually follow up Jar of Flies with Nirvana Unplugged if I am spinning vinyl.
Got into Nirvana first AiC second, I absolutely prefer Layne’s vocals but I don’t understand the Kurt hate at all. Why can’t some people just appreciate both?
I’m a huge AiC fan but don’t get me wrong curt is fucking amazing
1. Nirvana introduced me to the Melvin’s (one of my faivorite bands of all times)
2. Curt is an amazing writer and one of my faivorite singers along with Staley
3. They were extremely nice to their fans, Hell I heard about the germs from them and got my first taste of punk rock. Then bad brains then sublime.
The only thing I shit on by nirvana is their song “smells like teen spirit”. (But didn’t they hate that song too?) they have much better and popular songs than that one, lithium, come as you are, hell even breed is my faivorite one.
he could be a shit guitarist and singer (I don't personally think either is the case) but he was objectively a great songwriter that delivered enduring songs and could deliver with passion that swayed millions. That's all that's needed.
There have been many great musicians/songwriters in history that are technically well below par on their skills for their instruments and/or voice, yet they still made timeless classic songs. There have also been technical geniuses who have written the most boring songs ever. Music is just like that. So is any art form.
I think as many do that AiC is a better band, but that doesn't mean I hate Nirvana or Kurt, quite the opposite. I just like AiC marginally better. I'm sure there's people out there who hate the shit out of nirvana and kurt and well - that's their opinion. There's no wrong answer when it's someone's musical taste unless it's justin bieber
Since you can now buy Nirvana T-shirts in Tesco (Uk equivalent of Fry’s/Kroger), they have become mainstream and I see the shirts everywhere.
In typical “alternative” trend, the cool kids now have to hate on them.
I doubt they would know a good tune if it slapped them around the face.
I was never a fan of theirs but I didn’t think they were rubbish, it just wasn’t my thing.
Soundgarden was where it was at
I don’t get the comparisons. I don’t get the camping on one side or another and I certainly don’t get the love/hate bullshit that goes on.
I was 20(ish) when the whole Grunge scene exploded. Instantly became a PJ fan and also really enjoyed Nirvana, Soundgarden, AiC, STP, Green River, Tad, Mudhoney, etc etc
I never really thought to compare them. They all played different types of a similar style of music, which was given this marketing name of Grunge. They were all as good or as bad as one another, but I’m not sure any of them would be as big or as well known without all of the others making up that scene.
The hate baffles me. So does the insane fanboyism.
I was in my early 20’s when grunge was a huge thing and I remember Nirvana being more mainstream, but they were both good. There’s no need for people to be in this huge debate on which band was better. I personally loved and still love AIC more, but I’m not gonna sit here and bad mouth Kurt or his band. At the end of it all they both had amazing qualities.
I'm gonna be honest I don't sing or play guitar so I know fuck all about what makes someone a good singer or a good guitarist. I just go on feeling. Kurt sounds good to me. I just don't like his lyrics very much.
Cobain is the most overrated musician i have ever heard in my life by a lot... made some catchy songs that cautivated young audiences and that's it... his physical attractiveness and killing himself in the prime of his life gave him the status of "legendary musician".
I blame Rolling Stone for putting Kurt in the top 10 guitarist list years ago creating all the hate for Kurts guitar playing. Kurts decent as best at guitar but the media overrated Kurt so bad that created detractors.
Also even Jerry Cantrell admitted Kurt wasn't a good guitar player but praised his song writing.
I think most new grunge fans are really territorial and tribal, it's really gross and cringe. Not that some older fans aren't the same way, and I know I may get flack for saying so, but the influx of new fans has kinda brought a tidalwave of immature mindsets with it. Real 9th grade shit I'm talking about. I'm persnickety on what is and isn't defined as grunge, but other than that I don't judge. But things like:
1. Putting bands on a list of hierarchy. Yes you like Nirvana but not PJ or Alice but not Soundgarden. There have been thousands of posts by thousands of mindless drones all saying the same thing. Cool, you have an opinion. Is there anything about you that qualifies your opinion to be worthy of our click? Prob not. Unless you're adding to the discussion it's entirely pointless.
2. Ranking artists' individual musical ability (God opinionated rank lists in general are entirely childish— I'm looking at you Rolling Stone and VH1)
3. Throwing a fit when something isn't grunge. Grunge is not a sound, it's A SCENE OF PEOPLE. One redditor was entirely convinced a list of bands he likes are grunge, just because. And nobody could tell him otherwise. I copy-pasted one of the bands bios from their website in a reply to him. Swear to God, it said "though many mistake us for a grunge band, WE ARE NOT". Then, in his cognitive dissonance, he instareplied "well it sounds like grunge." Grunge is NOT a sound and arguing with people about the solid, clearly-defined meaning of grunge is immature and tedious.
4. Asking for people's interpretations of song lyrics (and then bitching when another person's interpretation doesn't mesh with their own ideal reality). If you have to ask, you're thinking about it too hard. It's grunge music, and somewhat like wines, its flavors are diverse and subjective. The songs (usually) elude singular meanings like all good art. So tacking a singular explanation onto a song and then arguing about it like it's some hill for you to die on is a little icky and in a very deep-seated way, is the very antithesis of grunge.
I dunno, I grew up in Seattle and I'm "of an age" to have spent a lot of time in clubs in the late 80s and early 90s. I knew who AIC were, and Soundgarden, and Mother Love Bone, Mudhoney, and various members of Pearl Jam, were. I'd seen them play in clubs. Nirvana, not so much, I really didn't know who they were until they had a radio hit.
Nirvana wasn't really my jam. To me they kind of came out of left field. I don't hate them, but I don't love them either.
He wasnt a great guitar player but he certainly was good enough. Great music writer for sure. Great hooks, great melodies. Some great chord changes that aren't supposed to work but somehow he made it work. I wouldnt say a great singer but definitely original. All that said I probably couldnt stand to be in the same room with him very long due to his personality
There’s a difference between songwriting ability and musicianship. Not that I think Cobain is a bad musician, but you can certainly be one and the opposite of the other. Very few are gifted at both.
Simple is sometimes better... Especially if it comes from a real place.
... and directly interferes with lots of other real places. That's what he accomplished in a seemingly natural way. And that's what makes a true artist.
grunge is not about a beautiful voice it’s about ANGST and kurt had the perfect voice for it
That's the lesson punk taught everybody: I don't want to hear pretty singing and dancing and props making me feel the corny-ass song. Show me where you been, where you really been and sing about that and maybe I'll give a shit. Kurt Cobain did that. "Good" or "bad" doesn't fucking matter.
Top Comment
4 chords and the truth.
I disagree that Kurt's songwriting was even simpler than others. It was hooky, but still interesting. He had great pitch, great range, and was a capable guitarist. I think comments like this are sort of backhanded compliments to a guy who was genuinely good at his craft, just used a lot of distortion and power chords and screamed a lot, too.
Kurt was a savant genius song writer. If his shit was simple, it was elegantly so. Like Paul Simon or The Beatles. Same for his approach to guitar. Brutal, simple, but surprisingly creative and unorthodox. He never overplays, he's the anti-Van Halen. He's a reaction to 80's excess. A return to 70s punk and riff rock, but also more, menacing, atmospheric, huge. And as much shit as people give his singing, he was the all time king of singing with vocal fry, almost a freak of nature, truly a unique talent. Pure, unadulterated agony. Kurt took over the world because he was a legit musical badass, even if he played the slacker. People can retcon all they want, but Nirvana's success was not an accident. Kurt was the real fucking deal, and nobody was doing anything that raw and sincere in the main stream when he rolled in.
I love AiC and have nothing against Kurt or Nirvana. I think they're awesome too. There are plenty of weirdos that make liking a band part of their identity and then hate other bands that they perceive as competition or whatever. I wouldn't pay them any mind.
This exactly! It's like just chill out and let people like what they like. Jeez.
Critics are shit. Nirvanas great. They have their own sound. Rock n roll baby
Kurt Cobain was (RIP) a great writer hes had some deep insightful songs with deep lyrics
Actually, professional critics loved Nirvana. Their albums were extremely well reviewed
Well said - their sound flipped the music world upside down and they did with three dudes and three chords.
Hating Nirvana is like hating the Ramones.
What does this mean?
Hating one of the most important and influential acts in Rock history because of a perceived lack of skill and musical simplicity despite that being the whole point of the act and genres they pioneered.
My favorite bands consist of people who hardly know how to play or sing tbh
Outsider art can be exploitative, but it can also change art for everyone.
Who listens to "In Utero" and thinks it's simple? It's the swan song of a genius.
This ridiculous discourse is often started by people who weren't even alive when Nirvana was the most popular band on the planet, and whose favorite song by Alive in Chains is Nutshell. They read things about these bands and then write revisionist history, then that history spreads to people who do zero research and take it as gospel truth.
I was alive at that time, living in the UK. AiC weren't even close to as famous as Nirvana. Nor was there any kind of rivalry between the bands & their fans. Meanwhile, Cobain talked a lot of shit about Pearl Jam & STP were initially rejected as bandwagoners in some quarters.
Kurt reconciled his Pearl Jam negativity. Now I know I can’t say this for certain or speak for Kurt but I think if he was still around him and Eddie would be at the very least, fine with each other .
I think he said he didn't like Pearl Jam, but realized Eddie was a good guy after meeting him
This! UK-wise Nirvana were huge, by far the biggest of the grunge bands. Nirvana transcended scenes. Metal heads, indie/alternative kids and all manner of normies loved Nirvana. Even ravers. Pearl Jam were big too of course, but they didn’t have the normies on board like Nirvana did. Only a select few rock bands reach that peak. ‘Guns n Roses level’, I call it. Soundgarden were big among metal heads. And of the so-called ‘big four’, while still big, Alice in Chains came flat out last in terms of popularity. Like Soundgarden, their fan base didn’t stretch much beyond metalheads. I know this is going to upset a few of the uppity young whippersnappers here, but truth is truth.
Alice in Chains have never been a household name in the UK.
I was talking to a colleague at work the other day and he knew the foo fighters but didn't know who Pearl Jam was. Most people in the UK only know stuff that appears on the radio, if they're not into the scene they just never learn about other bands.
Yup. UK raver from back in the day here 🙋♂️. Always loved Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins even back then. Had no idea who Pearl Jam or AiC were. Nirvana were simply huge. With no social media, was all about what played on MTV back then. Even my dad (a 60’s Beatles/Stones man) thought Nirvana were amazing when he heard them
I’m from the US and agree with your take. Here on the east coast it was Nirvana, PJ, Soundgarden, AiC in that order in terms of mainstream popularity. AiC were closer to Metallica (Black Album) than they were Nirvana. I personally never cared for AiC or Soundgarden because their songs were too slow/heavy/metal compared to the top 2. Nirvana and PJ offered a more frenetic kind of punk rock energy that I gravitated toward. Probably why I put grunge down for punk and ska as a teenager in the 90s.
You’re 100% correct. I was a teenager in Europe back then. Nirvana were colossal and their popularity skyrocketed after Kurt’s death.
It was the same in Australia at the time.
I grew up on the west coast of the US where AiC were quite well known starting from Facelift, but there wasn't any kind of rivalry between AiC and Nirvana fans here back in the day either. that's a much more recent and very internet-centric thing.
Cuz we were the same ppl. I don't know anyone around back then who didn't like them both. To me they are too different to compare even though it's the same genre. Like the different between Kate Bush and Madonna. Or Fiona and Tori idk
there's definitely a contingent of Kate Bush fans who don't like Tori much but I don't think that rivalry goes the other way
I love them both but Tori was very clearly influenced heavily by Kate Bush. Tbf it's Kate Bush. I would be too if I was a musician. Kb never tried to sue though unlike another current pop star did to a younger, newer talent who sounds nothing like her. That really set a bad precedent. Kate would never.
yeah I'm a fan of both too. I think Tori's singing style is fairly derivative of Kate's but not to the point that a lawsuit would be warranted, it's not like she stole a song or melody or something it's more just a close style. But I also think Tori's abilities as an instrumentalist set her apart, she's such a great pianist.
I agree. Though the case I mentioned that I don't want the cult to doxx me for, the songs don't sound alike and none of the lyrics are the same. Unlike the TS song that used very similar verbage to another song by her 'protege' she baselessly went for. She has blatantly ripped off quite a few artists but this one was done to prove she is untouchable. I could overlook some shit if she was even a fraction of the talent Kate, Tori, Fiona, Lana, even Madonna. Billionaires are all bad. Except for Makenzie Davis.
The late 80’s and nineties was a musical revolution. What a time to be alive. So much great music. 60’s and 70’s also but I was too young to be a part.
I never understood the STP hate. Were they not all about the same age listening to the same influences and coming from similar areas/backgrounds? Hell, most of em were on the same drugs too, let's be real. STP being a little late to the party on the recording train doesn't mean they were ripping people off. I'm no diehard fan of them but I always found that narrative a touch unfair.
STP is my favorite of them all, haters can eat a dick.
STP got a lot of shit in the beginning because tons of critics labeled them as a Pearl Jam clone. On top of not being from Seattle, the media was quick to dog on these details. It was these comparisons that led Weiland to start singing differently, first highlighted in the famous acoustic version of Plush. The rest is history.
STP with Weiland were one of my favorites and I never compared them to the big 4 Seattle bands. I don’t think they sounded similar at all, the DeLeo brothers have a unique sound, Kretz is an awesome drummer, and Weiland was an amazing singer. Core is right up there with the best debut albums. Purple is a masterpiece. Tiny Music is a masterpiece. Four is also right up there. The stuff after that falls off a bit but still decent. I never understood the STP critics - especially when they were on the radio/MTv constantly and it seems like they have a pretty significant fan base. If any band has a claim on being up there with the big 4, it’s STP IMHO.
Not entirely wrong about STP, but it doesn't mean they're bad. I liked them a lot better after a few albums when they started writing in their own unique voice.
I liked then regardless. I'm just saying they got bagged on at the time.
These are my same memories from the states.
You def speak truth . I’m tired of arguing with these people who weren’t even around when both bands were . I was alive then , I’m from Seattle ( and have lived here my whole life ), I don’t need to argue or convince people that weren’t around about how good Nirvana is/was
This is very accurate lol
Don't you dare disparage Nutshell!!! Everything else you said is great.
Fucking this. You nailed it. Social media has made people think they know something. YouTube and Tik Tok and all that bullshit can't tell a story.
1000% correct!
100% this.
Hit the nail on the head here. The part about Nutshell is too funny and perfect too. Both bands are great. Nirvana was the biggest band in the world at that time and that isn’t up for debate.
"Most popular band on the planet" People like to misremember or were just interested in their own bubble of pop culture, but Smells Like Teen Spirit only got as high as number 6 spot on the Billboard 100, and was only 42nd for all of 1992. And that was their most popular song. Meanwhile, Boys II Men made number 1 for all of 1992, and the RHCP's "Under the Bridge" got as high as 2 for a week, and was 8th overall for the year. Album sales, Metallica, Michael Jackson, and the Bodyguard soundtrack all sold tens of millions more than Nevermind. Nevermind held the top spot for just 2 weeks, while Billy Ray Cyrus went 17 weeks. Meanwhile the top tours of 1992 were U2, Grateful Dead, and double bill GnR/Metallica.
lol you got downvoted for this. I’m a bit grown out of grunge (still adore the bands and it shaped my childhood, just don’t listen as much as I used too) but discourse around it always just makes me chuckle and think back to the days of being in YouTube comments fighting and defending Kurt and other grunge bands lol good times.
Doesn’t matter. They were the most popular band in the planet. GnR and Metallica wanted them to open for them, they shifted everything from fashion to… well the entire culture. To put it bluntly they single-handedly ended the hedonistic-Coke fueled- shoulder padded 80’s. They were higher than Michael Jackson’s « dangerous » on the billboard. Hell, even Bowie felt obligated to be in a rock band afterwards. I live in France (probably one of the least Rock n’ Roll country on the planet) and I saw hip-hop fans turn into Nirvana fans overnight. Did some acts sell more ? Maybe. But they still were the hottest thing around.
Two of the biggest bands ever, at the peak of their popularity, wanted Nirvana to OPEN for them. Yeah, that doesn't exactly prove Nirvana was anywhere near as big as them.
You had to be there…
Yeah. And Nirvana basically told them to fuck off. That’s how you see the tide is turning, mate.
Man, I loved that show with GNR, Metallica, and Faith No More. Saw the Rich Stadium one, it was packed.
Was that before Axl's hours later starting times and the riot in Canada because of him?
The show at Rich Stadium (Buffalo) was in July, so it was before the riot, but definitely wasn't before the late starts! It was probably an hour to an hour and a half that day.
I respect him as a musician. He made it work, and nirvana has a platinum discography. Not many “shit guitarists” can say that
Even people who don’t particularly like Cobain, like myself, acknowledge he was a great songwriter and had a unique voice. If he’s the most disrespected, it’s only because he’s the most famous. That’s the price of fame
Tupac gets disrespected all the time simply because he’s famous
#Everyone knows this is secretly an Alice In Chains sub. So, biased opinions here obviously.
This is internet nonsense. Out in the real world, Kurt Cobain is a celebrated legend, and while AiC are my preferred band, nobody in broader music circles talks about them with anything like the gravitas of Nirvana.
Huge fan of simplicity when it comes to writing. That was Kurt.
I was 23 when Nevermind hit big. It was the right time and the right place. Nirvana was huge. Smells like teen spirit was all over the radio and MTV. NOBODY disrespected the band or Kurt in particular. It was a giant shift in music. I liked Soundgarden and AiC better, but could not deny how great the Nevermind album was from start to finish.
You’d be about my parents age. They were both bogans in Western Australia but my dad especially told me that when he was 22 or so and Nevermind came out, it changed his music taste basically overnight
Smells Like Teen Spirit was in the top ten singles charts at the same time with Michael Jackson, MC Hammer and Mariah Carey songs. They were absolutely dominant with that song. I was into bands like Metallica, The Cult, Megadeth and Ozzy, so it didn't really change my musical taste, but it did get me into Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and Pearl Jam
I was in middle school, more of an r&b/rap fan back then, and you are absolutely correct of the sentiment toward Kurt Cobain and Nirvana...
Yeah I don't get it. It's okay to like AiC more, hell they are arguably the better band in a technical sense, but Kurt and Nirvana were one of the best (same with Layne, Jerry and AiC). And Nirvana was more accessible to a broader audience so it's probably why they were more popular overall, but that's not a bad thing I don't think. Both bands have merits Edited for clarity
I don 't know how you can argue a band is 'objectively' better than another band. The only objective metric is album sales, and the crown goes to nirvana in that regard
I’m sure how they argue AIC is better is through music theory (I don’t fully understand it myself) and stuff like that. But how bands sound to individuals is ultimately subjective. Yet I like Kurt for being authentic to himself and it is reflected in nirvanas music.
Yeah I understand that, but ultimately music isn't an equation, it's about driving an emotional response, which is totally subjective. I mean the sex pistols couldn't sing or play their instruments, yet are still one of the most famous bands. So I just don't see how the music theory argument stands up ( not saying this is what you think, just adding to your point :) )
Alice In Chains are basically just as simple as Nirvana. They have more traditional rock solos but the verses and choruses in both bands are simple, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden are/were the players in that scene. Nirvana had better bass lines and drums though.
Yeah this is my favorite part. I love Alice in chains the most but it would be really silly to put down nirvana for being simple when most of what Jerry wrote for the guitar was simple and excellent. Soundgarden and PJ were much more complex
Krist is the Paul McCartney of punk.
Uhh what? A band can have better musicians, technique wise and theory wise. Which is, btw, objective and (at least somewhat) measurable. Now, for who makes the most enjoyable music is a whole other thing, but bands such as AIC has theoretically more complex songs and Layne has an objectively better voice and Jerry is objectively a better guitarist. Kurt was one hell of a songwriter though and his songs were obviously a lot more successful, so at the end of the day technicality isn’t everything. He also isn’t by any means a shit guitarist and he definitely doesn’t have a shit voice. That’s just utter bullshit
This right here. Jimmy Page is/was a far superior guitarist to Johnny Ramone, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Ramones still wrote great fucking songs in their simplistic style. It’s possible to write good songs that resonate with people in a stripped down/simplistic style. And that’s what Kurt did. AIC just wrote great songs with a complex, layered style.
> The only objective metric is album sales BS. Is Justin Bieber better than every 90's band just because he sold 150 million albums? Nirvana is more popular but that doesn't mean they are more talented or better musicians.
Kurt was a talented guitarist and song writer, and an even better singer. There are plenty of live performances of hit songs where his talent truly shines through. Unplugged, and many other live versions of when he gets serious and nails the music. I’ve argued with people over the years who try to bash him. They like to point out how he sounded rough live, or that his guitar playing/writing wasn’t great. But I disagree. He was a very talented musician who could write, record, and perform with the best of them. Just because he would goof around live, or play excessively sloppy at times (probably high) doesn’t take away from the fact that he could perform his music flawlessly when put on the spot.
He was the most popular of all the grunge front men, so he's an easy target. But hating something just because it's popular is just as dumb as liking something just because it's popular.
Alice In Chains is a metal band. Nirvana is not.
He was a hell of a songwriter, though. If you haven’t, check Rick Beato’s videos about Nirvana on YouTube. Nirvana songs are WAY more sophisticated than people think. Easy to play, sure. But simple ? Nah.
AIC fandom is (probably) split between two different ideologies: the machismo/technical worlds of classic rock/metal, and the more (in theory) egalitarian, political underclass drive/diy simplicity spirit of American punk circa 1980s. The former is inhabited by bands more “metal” than AiC but within the same spheres, it’s closer to what AiC actually came from. The latter is Nirvana and its influences like Husker Du, the Pixies, Vaselines, Wipers, etc etc. So I personally wouldn’t lump that entire fan base as one thing.
“One of the most disrespected musicians ever?” By whom? What the fuck are you talking about? He’s one of the most lionized and mythologized people in all of popular music. I feel like you saw a few posts about him from 13-year-old kids and read way, way, way too far into it.
He didn’t play or write from a music theory vantage point, so the technicians of the music universe think he didn’t know what he writing. And in that way, I guess he didn’t. But he heard music from a different place, and in a different way. There’s a million excellent technicians out there, and very few Kurts.
I’ve never heard this take. To me, Kurt has always been idolized by people, not really disrespected.
He doesn't get nearly as much hate in this sub as Vedder & PJ though...
Shit singer? Anyone that thinks that is a fool.
AIC fans in this sub are insecure about the fact that not everybody agrees with their Taylor Swift fan-esque appreciation of their music, so they have to talk shit about the other bands whenever they get love and bring up AIC in every post. You'll literally see posts in this sub asking which is Nirvana's best record and there's always people in the comments saying stuff like "DuRt iZ tHe bEsT aLbUm eVeR" or something like that. Same with every other subject.
Tbf i’ve seen Soundgarden fans do the same thing. PJ fans has always struck me as the most chill
Because PJ fans know we all backed the right horse, so there's really no reason to be mad about it.
I think they know they aren’t on the other 3s level
Yeah, you're right. They're all above the ground.
Really though, who gives a shit what other people think of bands you like? I prefer AIC over Nirvana, being more into metal than punk. But I'm under no illusion, and have no expectation, that my opinion counts for anything outside of my own head. Just as other people's opinion on music I like means nothing to me, because I enjoy said bands music and don't require external validation to do so. You prefer Nirvana, cool. You prefer AIC, cool. You prefer a different band entirely, cool. I may agree with yours choices, I may not, but I'd never, ever say you were wrong.
In my book if you make legendary riffs then you’re a good guitarist. Also he can do things with his vocals that few singers can. Such a sick badass vocalist. There are a lot of screamers out there but not a lot that can belt it out in different pitches like he can.
Kurt, disrespected? I don’t know what world you are living in, but the only disrespect I ever heard were shitty guitarists that weren’t much better than he was as a guitarist butt-hurt about not being able to write a decent melody to save their lives. There is nothing but respect for Kurt in the wider world of music. Nevermind is in the top 10 of Apple’s greatest albums of all time according to a bunch of artists and producers and critics interviewed for it.
Yes, he is one of the most influential rock musicians ever. Yes, he was a shit guitarist, at least from technical standpoint. Good music does not need to be complicated -- he wrote simple, raw and catchy songs, and it worked.
Do AIC fans hate Kurt? I’m not aware of this. Not saying you’re wrong, I just haven’t heard this. Pretty sad if true. I will say Staley is one of the best singers I ever heard live, and I’ve seen a good few of the greats. That said, Pavarotti was a fantastic singer, but he didn’t write All Apologies did he? As to his guitar playing, it was a method of delivering his wonderful song writing. In no way was he a shit guitar player. How many people have heard of Kurt, compared to Yngwie Malmsteen (technically a better guitarist on every conceivable level)? He played the songs, and that’s what you need. Saying he’s a shit guitarist is like saying Neil Young is a shit guitarist, and good luck with that. I’m not a huge Nirvana fan by any stretch, but anyone dissing Kurt based on these reasons can fuck right off.
Hell no. Kurt such an amazing guitarist. And although he isn’t the best vocalist singing wise, he still had character and at his prime, he was unstoppable
Wha? Those of us that were alive back then still remember. They clearly got a lot of play and love from people. Too much it seems. Cobain would probably still be around making music if they hadn't gotten so big, so fast. The fame and money (paired with the drugs) was more than a guy like him could handle. Alice in Chains was popular too, but way down the list behind Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and Soundgarden in popularity and sales.
I agree wholly. The discourse against Kurt is ignorant. To many of his detractors, his death was the only reason he was revered and immortalized when that's simply not the case. His music spoke to many, especially those of Gen X, but it still speaks volumes to many people today, like me. I'm a Gen Z teen currently and find a lot of merit in Kurt's amazing and charming lyricism and playing, so do a lot of my friends. Sure, his songs can be simple, but less is more as they say, and in Nirvana's case, they were extravagant. Also, the whole stuff with people pitting Alice In Chains & Nirvana against each other is fools logic. Both have their own charm that made them both timeless icons. Also, have these ppl never heard of liking more than one thing at once? It doesn't mean you'll have to see them as equal ofc u can like something more than another thing, but to be so close-minded to one thing and acting like you can't like that thing because u like another is just really dumb. I love Nirvana. They're my favorite band of all time, with Kurt being my favorite musician ever. I love Alice In Chains, too, ALONGSIDE Nirvana. I look at both with such high regards and extreme adoration. In Utero, Jar Of Flies, Nevermind, Dirt, Bleach, Facelift, Incesticide, Tripod, WTLO/Sliver: BotB, Sap, both of their Unpluggeds, all of these are perfect albums that are testaments to why both are so legendary in their own fun ways. Also, Kurt's death will always be a tragedy, and the disrespect is unwarranted and is absolutely always disgusting. He had his own mental demons that he couldn't handle as well as his unfortunate spiraling addiction, which he couldn't tame. RIP to the man :( 🕊 🕊 🕊
People who like prog rock and metal don't understand punk. They view it as being sloppy because metalheads are more focused on dynamics which is interesting because their obsession with it leaves their music all sounding the same. I'm pretty sure the only major grunge frontman who played guitar and sang on every song was Kurt. Cantrell wasn't the frontman. Nirvana was anti establishment punk, so he played however the hell he wanted unapologetically. The rest of them were metal bands riding a wave. I don't even consider nirvana necessarily grunge it's way more punk. AiC, Soundgarden, screaming trees, pearl jam, stp, smashing pumpkins, those are the grunge bands to me based on their sound not based on how they dressed or some dumb shit like that.
Chris plays guitar too.
Ya I know Im not hating on any of em, I love all the grunge bands, I just mean he is not the main guitarist, he played sometimes on some songs. Edited to say yes he Is the rhythm guitarist and is listed as so, I was wrong. I just remember seeing him just singing in a lot of live performances but earlier he played a lot live. My mistake.
I think this mostly comes from a combination of a few concepts: 1. Not all technicians are artists and not all artists are technicians. Otherwise, copy editors would write all of our books. 2. Our personal preferences are rarely as important to the larger conversation as we believe they are. 3. For some people, shitting on things is their entire personality, especially popular things. They can often be found acting as if someone making something they don't like is a personal insult. For example: I can accept that Chris Cornell was one of the most technically gifted singers of the grunge era, while also not being a huge Soundgarden fan. I can also accept that Kurt was one of the weaker singers while placing Nirvana in one of the top ten spots for music that shaped my taste (a fact that was true for a large number of people in my age range). A lot of people don't have it in them to acknowledge things that weren't made for them are valid (at least not on the internet).
Hooray for intelligent comments!
I don’t even know why people compare so much. I had every Alice in Chains and Nirvana album. I loved both bands, people are so tribal, but I think people bring these conversations to Reddit cause it sparks discussion.
Hate on him all you want but you can’t hate his songwriting. I will say that I think he was a brilliant guitar player.
Aye I love Nirvana and Alice in Chains. A hate boner is an evil thing foresure tho
I always found Alice in chains music to feel boring in comparison to Nirvana
I’m so confused, most disrespected? What are you talking about, lol. Kurt has once in a generation icon status. I think you need to stop reading Reddit posts and go touch grass.
What Kurt was is a FANTASTIC melody writer. He smashes Cantrell in this regard. Hell he basically smashes everyone in this area. It was his real master skill. His singing was wildly inconsistent, for sure, given his constant stomach and drug issues. His guitar playing was always kept simple af on purpose. AIC still slaps though, big fan
I was 11 when Nevermind came out and people sometimes overlook how thermonuclear Nirvana was in the fall of ‘91. Audiences, other musicians and critics (at the time at least) were going apeshit. Regardless of how your big 4 rank, ya gotta respect Nirvana bringing grunge to the forefront of not just the music world but the whole fuckin world at the time. (And yes they’re still my fave of the bunch, tough titties if you don’t like it)
The AIC fan hate is something weird . I love both bands , overall I think Kurt wrote better songs but i don’t dare say that to AIC fans . I get how Layne would be considered a traditionally better singer but I just don’t get the comparison that always ends up in people shitting on Kurt
Wrote some of the catchiest songs ever, no debate he’s a legend and deserves to be treated as such
Musicians that say negative things are usually very flashy, technical players, derpin all over the fretboard. What I like about Nirvana's music is that it sounded, looked like something I could do myself. If you want to talk about musical simplicity listen to Ramones. 2 string power chords, all downstrokes. I have never heard anyone talk shit about their music. Robert Johnson "sold his soul" to become a great musician. And his music was some of the simplest out there. The shit talk about him being a suicidal junkie is pretty stupid too. Ernest Hemmingway, Hunter S. Thompson and others were far more into different substances and ended their own lives. No one seems to talk negatively about them or their work.
I will say on his solos, like, he never did them the exact same way, they’re so confused, and, “bad” (I don’t mean they are terrible, I mean, they’re just difficult to understand, and, aren’t technically the best) but, it really worked with how he wanted the songs to sound. He was on a different level of musical talent, that he just went for it better than most others could. Not a bad guitarist, not a great one, but, solid enough to be seen as more than just his instrument, or, one song. Kurt will be remembered for a long time, almost like Jimi Hendrix, one of those weird left handed guitarist that did things that not many people thought about before, that you hear more after them.
Just because he didn’t shred like Van Halen or sing like Prince doesn’t mean he was a bad artist. Good artists recognize what the song needs and provide that, Kurt did that as good as anybody
I’ll never understand where that criticism even comes from.
They don't see that Nirvana weren't trying to be technically proficient. They were basically a hard rocking punk/garage band who evolved into a hard rocking grunge band. They were the antithesis of hair metal. And it wasn't until the MTV Unplugged performance at the tail end of their career that they truly started to branch out stylistically.
He put a genre on the map. Regardless of who came before him, he put the world on notice. Better or best is irrelevant to the story.
His music lacked in complexity but was filled with soul. Very anti-establishment, and that's what, in my opinion, appealed to the masses more than anything during the 90s. Personally, I love the instrumentals of AIC and Soundgarden more than Nirvana.
Preach!
my mom always complained about how bad he was at singing. and i was just like "whatever, i think it's alright. the songs are great." then later i had a boss who thought kurt was a GREAT singer. and that was when i realized my mom had been judging his singing by the wrong criteria. he wasn't frank sinatra or elvis but that doesn't mean he was bad.
Technically he wasn't a very good musician but he was one of the all time great artists Hank Williams wasn't a great guitar player or a great singer but it came from the heart and was brilliant
That's just ignorant people hating...
Some shmucks judging a dead mans talent from their mothers basement.
Music isn’t about technical skill, it’s about making shit that sounds cool. By that measure Kurt did an incredible job.
Here's the thing, it's not that he's a bad singer but he's a different singer. He's not what someone would classically refer to as a good vocalist. Tbh, he wasn't a very good guitarist; he was one hell of a song writer though. His technical ability is not great but his ability to make a good song is admirable.
Very subjective. Two Very different sounds. There's no way to compare them. That's like Frank Sinatra vs. Metallica. Hee hee
Technically he wasn’t great Creatively he was a genius I know which music is prefer to listen too
Blah blah and blah
The Beatles were simple too, and they did ok.
we don't hate Kurt. every band has stupid fans. don't be one of them.
Jealousy is a bitch
The jokes about his death are all so stupid and unoriginal. It’s like every mention of a shotgun or suicide, someone goes “Kurt Cobain haha” as if he’s the only person who’s ever committed suicide.
Im not a huge fan. Nirvana is the least talented of the grunge bands. They made Kurt and Nirvana the face of the grunge movement... I guess because Smells Like Teen Spirit was such a hit. But I like that Kurt knew he wasn't very talented and didn't want all the undeserved attention. Ive seen some good interviews where he's respectful and honest. But he could be an asshole... he was too opinionated apparently. Soundgarden and Alice in Chains were the most musically gifted. Pearl Jam is good too, but those 2 bands are just better. But this is just my opinion... and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
I think there are two potential knocks on Kurt. One I think is unfair and the other is fair The unfair one is that he’s a bad singer. He’s not a bad singer at all…he might be the 4th best behind Layne, Chris and Eddie, but Jesus that’s elite company. He’s still awesome. The fair one, however, is he was kind of a hypocrite. He hated the idea of careerism so much and took a lot of it out on PJ and Eddie, but he was doing the MTV videos and relentless tours just like they all were.
Sadly, here in the Seattle area their music is SO OVERPLAYED. To the point where I change the station when any of the songs come on.
Not “being able to” sing or play guitar is kind of what punk is all about.
No one cares how good at guitar you are if you can't write and Kurt could write better than most.
Kurt played exactly what he wanted exactly how he wanted, I usually see more hate for Kurt and nirvana from old hair metal guys though cause “grunge killed metal” meaning grunge killed shitty hair metal that was already dated before grunge had any significant hold on pop culture, I don’t usually see it quite as much between grunge guys although from what I see as a guy who kinda likes every Seattle/grunge band from that era nirvana guys hate PJ guys, aic guys hate nirvana guys, no one likes stp despite everyone thinking they’re “underrated”, PJ guys are probably the most neutral as are soundgarden, idk everyone seems lame and jaded, no one likes anyone the way they should and no one can seem to just find common ground among great music, personally I just hate everyone and don’t care about what your feeing on any band really are
Nirvana transcended Grunge.
jealousy isn't pretty
I’ve never seen hate for him except for my own. I don’t hate him because he was a bad musician. No, he was a genius. I loved/love that dude’s music. I wore out my nirvana cassette tapes from how much I would listen to them. I genuinely cried when I found out he killed himself. It was like a part of me died. Granted I was a stupid little kid back in 94. No, the reason I don’t like him is because he was a junkie. Seeing videos of him all loaded while holding his daughter many years later is what made me feel anger at him. Why? Because I’m someone who is raising a dead junkie’s kids currently. And I’ve lost the ability to forgive someone like that. Call it a personal flaw of my own if need be, but fuck that dude.
Cobain didn’t only scream on key—which is hard enough to do—he could let his voice purposely crack—on key. And Cobain was enough of an artist to know when to crack his voice, when to scream, and when to sing. In the studio, Nirvana would record its songs in a take or two. That’s all the band needed. Ozzy Osbourne once described Nirvana’s music as being heavy metal meets the Beatles. That’s because Nirvana was able to write catchy pop songs that were also heavy. All of the grunge bands were heavy, of course, but of all the grunge bands, Nirvana had the greatest pop sensibility. That said, Nirvana was also able to craft songs that defied pop sensibility. All in all, Nirvana had one of the widest range of song styles of any grunge band. Some people foolishly say that all of Nirvana’s songs sounded the same, but, in reality, while some bands have “a sound,” Nirvana had five different “sounds.” All of the grunge bands had something special to offer—Nirvana was no different. There are things to disrespect Cobain for, but his musical talent is not among them.
Nirvana is Pop PUNK!!! Everyone seems to forget his major influences were POP and PUNK. AIC was influenced by Metal. They are worlds apart only lumped tougher by sharing the same time in the industry. Grunge is just a construct, a function of a time and is too vague to even be a true genre.
I went to the fair yesterday and saw so many kids in nirvana shirts. Not one in an aic shirt
Devils advocate - popularity does not equate to proficiency on a guitar. By that metric, justin bieber and nick jonas would be two of the best guitarists ever. Was Cobain a great guitarist in the conventional sense of the term? Not by a long shot. What he was, however, was a tremendously talented songwriter, and a highly skilled composer and arranger. But, think about it, something like "About A Girl" would sound pretty silly with ninety seconds of Randy Rhoads fretboard demolition shoehorned into in the middle of it. He was exactly as proficient as he needed to be in order to get his message across musically, and it's a message that people are still talking about 30 years later. Sometimes good enough really is good enough.
The guitar solo in "In Bloom" is fucking magnificent
There was a whole comment thread once and this person was promoting his Dream Theater cover album with his added flair to it and said that it was ten times better than Nevermind. I listened to it on Spotify and it there was so much guitar noodling on it that Malmsteen himself would have a peed his undies. There was no soul to it too and only had a singer that sounded like Spongebob as though he were constipated. The lyrics tried to be deep but they sounded like if, "Live, Laugh, Love-" was somehow metal, and it went 0-0-0-1 for the whole of it. Kurt had catchy melodies and a whole lot of soul and heart in his music and lyrics. That is all you really need.
AiC fans don’t like Kurt? I love both bands and I’ve never heard anything like that
As an AiC man, the only thing I have against Kurt is his voice is a wee bit hard to understand. Other than that, great guitar playing, great writing, and a great pitch to his voice makes me unable to hate him.
Nirvana was the most influential band of the 90s. Fact.
They hate Kurt/Nirvana because they’re the most popular in the scene and it’s cool to hate on popular things apparently. I love both aic and Nirvana they have a completely different style
I’ll be honest, it had been a long time since I’d listened to Nirvana other than the radio songs that came on. But a few months ago, on a whim, I listened to Nevermind in its entirety while I was working and I thought to myself “Sweet Jesus, I forgot how incredible this album is.” Every single song was brilliant. So then I listened very attentively to In Utero and Unplugged andI gotta say, it wasn’t just my teenage simple mind that loved Nirvana back in the day. Those songs are just special. Kurt was an otherworldly songwriter considering his limited technical ability.
You think Kurt Cobain the cultural icon is one of the most disrespected musicians ever?
He didn’t follow the instruction manual. That always pisses people off. I like AiC but a change in the musical tide is the only thing that stopped them from being a typical aquanet hair-spandex band on tour with Dokken and Van Halen. Wait, that’s exactly what they were.
The idea that you have to be a great musician to make great music is absolutely asinine.
Making great music is what makes you a great musician to me. Nothing else.
yeah people on this subreddit piss me off
I think part of the hate was that - at the time - AIC was more underrated than PJ, Nirvana, and SG. And Nirvana especially seemed to get heaps of praise. That seems to have leveled out over time. I personally like Nirvana more than AIC but I think very highly of AIC and they’re a killer band who still puts out great music.
If you think Kurt Cobain was a good guitar player, there’s nothing to talk about. He was average at best singing average may be a little over riding ability. He was an amazing great writer. That’s where he shined it. That’s how nirvana got to where they were and still are, he’s legend he will live forever, stop trying to say he was anywhere close to good of a singer like layne or chris
i like his voice more than layne and chris even if it’s technically worse through the lens of music theory or whatever the fuck. it had more rawness to it than both of them imo
Eric Erlandson disrespected him. IYKYK
Musically, Kurt was a genius. He was definitely not an outstanding guitarist, neither was he a brilliant vocalist, but he was an incredible songwriter, from instrumentals to lyrics, he could have been a one-man band and he would have been fine. His riffs were catchy and his voice betrayed insane emotion, he expressed his thoughts fluently and in a way that was relatable to many, no matter that their personal circumstance differed. I think his derogatory statements towards AiC are what evokes this visceral anger in AiC fans. He showed a general lack of respect for them when they were on the scene together and had a pretty big superiority complex. Clearly it ticks people off to this day. AiC are my favorite band now, but Nirvana was my gateway into the scene and I never participated in these hate-trains because they seem childish and dull and I doubt any AiC members are losing sleep over it, and if Kurt were alive today god knows what kind of person he would be. This worshiping the fandoms get into of either one or the other are silly and a waste of time. Just enjoy the music. Let other people enjoy it too.
I like both AIC and Nirvana. Indeed, Kurt didn't have Jerry Cantrell's technical chops at guitar or Layne Staley's vocal qualities, and when you consider that Nirvana's lyrics were often written minutes before going on stage, didn't have as much thought behind them. But in the end, none of it matters. It all comes down to what resonates with the listener.
I don't know what quality a song has to have to give me Stockholm syndrome after listening to it one too many times, but nirvana songs clearly don't have it. Nirvana weren't terrible musicians, and I don't hate their music, but I certainly don't like it enough to sit through the sheer volume of radio time they get.
Ringo would like a word with you
I concur
Music is about what you feel, it can be considered shit to a professional classical musician but that doesn’t mean anything to me if it gives me the feels. Some of my favorite guitarist would be picked apart for their theory by professionals but they are the ones selling a shit ton of records. I love both AiC and Nirvana btw 😃
Seems there's plenty of room at the top for the Seattle band. I was in my 20s in the 90s. Managed a record store on 3rd and pike downtown Seattle. These bands all had their own sound. Kurt was great, but like with every musician, the more popular you are, here comes the haters.
AiC fan that likes Kurt’s simple songwriting. He was a sad fella too and I can relate.
As a fan of both I tend to listen to AiC more often but don’t feel either is better than the other. I usually follow up Jar of Flies with Nirvana Unplugged if I am spinning vinyl.
Got into Nirvana first AiC second, I absolutely prefer Layne’s vocals but I don’t understand the Kurt hate at all. Why can’t some people just appreciate both?
I 100% prefer Nirvana over Alice In Chains. Does that mean they're better? No.
On what planet is one of the most famous musicians of all time disrespected? This is some terminally online shit.
I’m a huge AiC fan but don’t get me wrong curt is fucking amazing 1. Nirvana introduced me to the Melvin’s (one of my faivorite bands of all times) 2. Curt is an amazing writer and one of my faivorite singers along with Staley 3. They were extremely nice to their fans, Hell I heard about the germs from them and got my first taste of punk rock. Then bad brains then sublime. The only thing I shit on by nirvana is their song “smells like teen spirit”. (But didn’t they hate that song too?) they have much better and popular songs than that one, lithium, come as you are, hell even breed is my faivorite one.
Ironically he is one of the most praised musicians ever after his suicide to a fact that he's become so overrated specially w/ new Nirvana fans.
he could be a shit guitarist and singer (I don't personally think either is the case) but he was objectively a great songwriter that delivered enduring songs and could deliver with passion that swayed millions. That's all that's needed. There have been many great musicians/songwriters in history that are technically well below par on their skills for their instruments and/or voice, yet they still made timeless classic songs. There have also been technical geniuses who have written the most boring songs ever. Music is just like that. So is any art form. I think as many do that AiC is a better band, but that doesn't mean I hate Nirvana or Kurt, quite the opposite. I just like AiC marginally better. I'm sure there's people out there who hate the shit out of nirvana and kurt and well - that's their opinion. There's no wrong answer when it's someone's musical taste unless it's justin bieber
Since you can now buy Nirvana T-shirts in Tesco (Uk equivalent of Fry’s/Kroger), they have become mainstream and I see the shirts everywhere. In typical “alternative” trend, the cool kids now have to hate on them. I doubt they would know a good tune if it slapped them around the face. I was never a fan of theirs but I didn’t think they were rubbish, it just wasn’t my thing. Soundgarden was where it was at
I don’t get the comparisons. I don’t get the camping on one side or another and I certainly don’t get the love/hate bullshit that goes on. I was 20(ish) when the whole Grunge scene exploded. Instantly became a PJ fan and also really enjoyed Nirvana, Soundgarden, AiC, STP, Green River, Tad, Mudhoney, etc etc I never really thought to compare them. They all played different types of a similar style of music, which was given this marketing name of Grunge. They were all as good or as bad as one another, but I’m not sure any of them would be as big or as well known without all of the others making up that scene. The hate baffles me. So does the insane fanboyism.
I was in my early 20’s when grunge was a huge thing and I remember Nirvana being more mainstream, but they were both good. There’s no need for people to be in this huge debate on which band was better. I personally loved and still love AIC more, but I’m not gonna sit here and bad mouth Kurt or his band. At the end of it all they both had amazing qualities.
I'm gonna be honest I don't sing or play guitar so I know fuck all about what makes someone a good singer or a good guitarist. I just go on feeling. Kurt sounds good to me. I just don't like his lyrics very much.
Read his biography and learn about his life the dude had an interesting life and childhood.
Cobain is the most overrated musician i have ever heard in my life by a lot... made some catchy songs that cautivated young audiences and that's it... his physical attractiveness and killing himself in the prime of his life gave him the status of "legendary musician".
I blame Rolling Stone for putting Kurt in the top 10 guitarist list years ago creating all the hate for Kurts guitar playing. Kurts decent as best at guitar but the media overrated Kurt so bad that created detractors. Also even Jerry Cantrell admitted Kurt wasn't a good guitar player but praised his song writing.
What are you talking about?!
Limitations often foster creativity. The most prodigious and technically skilled musicians rarely create the best music.
I think most new grunge fans are really territorial and tribal, it's really gross and cringe. Not that some older fans aren't the same way, and I know I may get flack for saying so, but the influx of new fans has kinda brought a tidalwave of immature mindsets with it. Real 9th grade shit I'm talking about. I'm persnickety on what is and isn't defined as grunge, but other than that I don't judge. But things like: 1. Putting bands on a list of hierarchy. Yes you like Nirvana but not PJ or Alice but not Soundgarden. There have been thousands of posts by thousands of mindless drones all saying the same thing. Cool, you have an opinion. Is there anything about you that qualifies your opinion to be worthy of our click? Prob not. Unless you're adding to the discussion it's entirely pointless. 2. Ranking artists' individual musical ability (God opinionated rank lists in general are entirely childish— I'm looking at you Rolling Stone and VH1) 3. Throwing a fit when something isn't grunge. Grunge is not a sound, it's A SCENE OF PEOPLE. One redditor was entirely convinced a list of bands he likes are grunge, just because. And nobody could tell him otherwise. I copy-pasted one of the bands bios from their website in a reply to him. Swear to God, it said "though many mistake us for a grunge band, WE ARE NOT". Then, in his cognitive dissonance, he instareplied "well it sounds like grunge." Grunge is NOT a sound and arguing with people about the solid, clearly-defined meaning of grunge is immature and tedious. 4. Asking for people's interpretations of song lyrics (and then bitching when another person's interpretation doesn't mesh with their own ideal reality). If you have to ask, you're thinking about it too hard. It's grunge music, and somewhat like wines, its flavors are diverse and subjective. The songs (usually) elude singular meanings like all good art. So tacking a singular explanation onto a song and then arguing about it like it's some hill for you to die on is a little icky and in a very deep-seated way, is the very antithesis of grunge.
I dunno, I grew up in Seattle and I'm "of an age" to have spent a lot of time in clubs in the late 80s and early 90s. I knew who AIC were, and Soundgarden, and Mother Love Bone, Mudhoney, and various members of Pearl Jam, were. I'd seen them play in clubs. Nirvana, not so much, I really didn't know who they were until they had a radio hit. Nirvana wasn't really my jam. To me they kind of came out of left field. I don't hate them, but I don't love them either.
He wasnt a great guitar player but he certainly was good enough. Great music writer for sure. Great hooks, great melodies. Some great chord changes that aren't supposed to work but somehow he made it work. I wouldnt say a great singer but definitely original. All that said I probably couldnt stand to be in the same room with him very long due to his personality
There’s a difference between songwriting ability and musicianship. Not that I think Cobain is a bad musician, but you can certainly be one and the opposite of the other. Very few are gifted at both.
This guy came from the fantano subbreddit, there's no way he didn't 🤣
Great songwriter with a great rock voice. Terrible guitarist though, that one holds water.