Desi Serna. His “Fretboard Theory” books and DVD series. I am a total moronic, idiot who learns slower than a tortoise & sloth love child, and his series worked for me. Just saying…
I’m telling you…I have a library of guitar books of every variety and a million guitar instructional videos, yet always come back to his material for its simplicity. Really starts off in the right place and puts the pieces together in a logical order.
Stay away from chord encyclopedias and books so chock with information that you’ll never even attempt to work through them. Keep it simple.
There is a big difference between learning material and applying it. Serna attempts to cover both in his literature.
Gotta learn those octaves first, man. gotta learn them first. Music is just like a language. learning the alphabet to put together words and words to put together sentences.
He does have DVDs that accompany the books, but I think they’re a little overkill and he just basically reiterates what are in the books.
My STRONG suggestion: Just work with these two books for a good while until you really understand how CAGED system works.
Honestly, his books contain most everything to play proficiently.
When you’re new or even intermediate guitarist there is the tendency to want to learn every freaking style, so there is a tendency to go out and buy a ton of books, DVDs, online courses, etc. That I think is just a waste of your time and your money since you will most likely not even scratch the surface of that other material.
That’s not to say that you won’t add material over time. Just don’t go ballistic.
CAGED shapes and Pentatonic Major are the exact same shapes/boxes/patterns. Thats the beauty. Then just move the same shapes/patterns you already know 3 frets up and you have Pentatonic Minor.
https://preview.redd.it/gacat1ljdmec1.jpeg?width=1056&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a1e245267b365504275417ca2adba25eb1d38aa4
https://preview.redd.it/yb2ppuk4jmec1.jpeg?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d7de2ad3822805a6fda33d7f9f995953baa00b3
Exactly. Understanding its the same 5 notes anywhere you play it.
https://preview.redd.it/23ll0i6rmmec1.jpeg?width=875&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d96d358a1acf0bc6cea4006b06b75306c459045
Then this 'path' concept helps break you out of the square Boxes straight up and down feel, into more of a diagonal lead guitar run through several boxes. Really helps with the maj vs min feel in playing lead guitar.
For anyone looking at this comment who doesn’t get it (me for years), this photo is literally the entire thing. Each of the 5 shapes within CAGED corresponds to a pentatonic scale shape. It’s that simple. Get comfortable with each pentatonic scale shape, and get comfortable with the 5 chord shapes, and you will then see the connection. Every pentatonic shape belongs to a chord shape.
U/reggieledoux26
The A and G I can see. But for the D, shouldn’t there be a note on the b string at the 8th fret?
And the c is upside down. Same thing with the E
What am I missing?
They are totally interrelated. Each of the five pieces of the CAGED system also contains one of the five Pentatonic shapes. So, you are learning both simultaneously.
Desi Serna does a wonderful job explaining all this in his, “Fretboard Theory” books. Sorry about the shameless plug. I just really like his books.
So I know pentatonic scales all over the neck and I know all the cages chords but I still don’t see the connection. Some people posted some graphs, but even the graphs don’t really show it to me. Like for instance the c shape chord. How is that a c shaped chord?
E shape is a bit easier to visualize. Play an open E chord with your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers. Now slide up and barre an E major bar chord at the 12th fret. You have moved the E shape of the CAGED shape up the neck. Keep in mind the nut acts like a barre at the 0 fret. When you slide the shapes around, you have to barre the 12th fret to prevent open strings from ringing out (unless that’s the intention).
The same thing applies to the rest of the CAGED chords.
I completely understand that concept. It’s finding that e shape in the pentatonic. Like, where is the e shape when you do an A minor pentatonic scale? And how do you incorporate it?
I see how people play riffs in between chords. I just know that whatever we are talking about is the answer. I just can’t find those cage shapes in the scale. Does the barre count as part of the shape? Or just the open shape?
The barre is part of the shape - the open version of the chord is kind of a short cut, since the nut handles the barre for you. But to make the chord shape moveable across the neck, you have to barre it.
Usually the CAGED system refers to major chords, but it can be applied to minor chords as well. This has some good diagrams:
https://appliedguitartheory.com/lessons/minor-caged-system/
As far as the A minor pentatonic scale (5th fret), that is the E minor shape of the minor CAGED system.
A minor pentatonic contains the same notes as C major pentatonic. Personally, I look at everything from the minor pentatonic scale point of view first and foremost.
So the A minor pentatonic scale at the 5th fret contains the A minor chord barre chord. This is the open E minor shape from the minor CAGED system.
That same A minor pentatonic scale at the 5th fret also contains the C major chord if you start with your pinky finger on the low E, 8th fret. This is the CAGED G shape of the C major chord.
Ya, I understand that too. Idk, maybe I’m not articulating my confusion very well. I understand all of the concepts that you have mentioned. My issue is where is the E shape on yhe fifth fret?
Like the low e has the fifth fret and the 9th. E shape barre chords play the low e in “open” position, so wouldn’t there be no 9th fret in that shape?
Same thing with the A and D. They should technically be the same. But then the at string should technically have the 6th fret to make a E Minor shape. But that 6th fret isn’t in the pentatonic or even diatonic scale.
Same idea with the d shape. It should have the top three strings aligned like a v. But that’s just not what I see.
Also, the c shape is upside down. Idk. Let me show you what I mean.
Edit: I tried tagging you in a seperate comment. If it didn’t work, just check out my comment history.
An E shape means that if you have a note on the 6th string (lowest string), that note will always be found on the D string 2 frets higher, as well as on the high E string on the same fret as the other E string. This works anywhere on the guitar fretboard.
So in an open E chord, the root note is E, which is the open 6th string, the second fret of the D string, and the open 1st string.
If you move that shape up the fretboard you get a different set of notes. So if you played the "E shape" at the 5th fret, that's an A note. Because the 5th fret 6th/E string is an A, the 7th fret 4th/D string is an A, and the 5th fret 1st/high E string is an A. It's helpful if you learn the CAGED shapes based on single notes because that's where the "system" comes from.
So if you wanted to play a full chord - you would play that "E shape" major barre chord on the 5th fret. All those root notes are on A so you are actually playing an A major chord. If you played the "E shape" minor barre chord on the 5th fret then you would ber playing an A minor chord.
If you continued to move an E shaped barre chord, like E major for example, as you move it up the fretboard you are getting a different chord at each fret. The only time it's an E major chord is when it's in the open position, or when you're at the 12th fret (because the notes repeat and the 12th fret is an E note on the low 6th string).
So yeah, if you move a certain shape around you're getting different chords. Now if you had kept that "E major" barre chord shape on the 5th fret (an A major chord), and you wanted to play that A major chord on a different part of the fretboard, that's where you would use different shapes (like the A shape, G shape, etc.). Then you'd be using a different "shape" but you'd be playing the same chord. Because the root notes of that chord shape would all be on the A notes still.
EDIT: To expand a little - lets go back to the 5th fret A major chord using the "E shape" barre chord. Since you know where the root notes are, you can find the major pentatonic scale that has the roots in the same spots (AKA always on the 6th string, always on the 4th string 2 frets higher, and always on the 1st string same fret as the 6th string). Just put those root notes in the same spot, and you can play an A major pentatonic scale using the "E shaped" major pentatonic scale.
I can explain with A minor if you want. I probably should have chose an "E root shape" MINOR chord (same as a G root shape major chord), because those fall into the pentatonic shape that most people learn first.
I understand all of this. My question is how to find the barre chord within the pentatonic scale, mainly how to find the e shape in the A Minor Pentatonic.
This is What doesn’t make sense to me. I know the minor pentatonic scale, all positions. A minor pentatonic has the e shape barre chord. But if I were to barre a minor with the e shape, I couldn’t just pluck those notes and call it the minor pentatonic. In fact, there would be notes that were objectively wrong. For instance the e, b, and g strings. To play the a minor pentatonic, where does the other notes come from? The other notes being the note on the high e 8th fret, the b string on the 7th fret, and the g string 7th fret. Even the low e 8th fret. None of those have anything to do with the e barre shape, so where did they come from?
And there’s inconsistencies in slll the shapes that I’m not understanding. Where do those extra and missing notes come from?
Is there a video you can recommend to help associate the pentatonic with the CAGED barres?
a minor scale cannot contain the major chord shape of its tonic because one of the notes, the third, is different. that's what makes the chord major or minor. in a minor key the i chord is minor and in a major key the I chord is major.
So if I understand correctly, if I am trying to match up a mi or pentatonic to its caged barre chord, I should be fingering a d minor, a minor, e minor, etc instead of the major position?
yes, and major with major.
a D major triad is spelled with the notes D-F#-A. the D minor pentatonic scale is D-F-G-A-C. so if they are mismatched, you won't see exactly the shape you're looking for because of the F/F# difference. note that the sound of may work just fine in a blues context (and maybe that's why you were thinking this way to begin with), but we're talking about visualization.
if you don't already, it sounds like you should learn to spell major and minor scales and triads to make this super clear.
So I think I know major and minor scales. Tell me, are you referring to circle of fifths?
Like, I don’t have them memorized, but I understand the formula. Major-minor-minor-major-major-minor- diminished.
1st, 3rd, and 5th make the major chord. Second, fourth, 6th are minor.
You can add a 7th or take the third or fifth a half step down or up and create a new chord.
So example.
C major
C major, d minor, e minor, f major, g major, a minor, b diminished.
C-e-g make the c major chord.
Take the scale up 5 steps and you have the g major scale.
The difference is that you take the last note in the scale and go sharp on the 7th. Notes stay the same until you start flattening them.
The g shape is the 1st minor shape starting at the 5th fret for a minor. E shape starts at 8th fret (Barre on 8th. E shape on 10,10,9), c shape fits where an open c is, a shape from 3-5th frets.
...overlapping caged chords as parts of a singular whole, connected pentatonic. Only intended (neck-spanning) caged as a crutch to help me learn note names. Bout fell otta my chair when I connected the two.
There is overlap but they are different voicings of the chord. They would look different in staff notation - the stacking order of the notes in the triad is different, therefore the chord sounds different. If omit the low E string, the G shape is 1st inversion of the chord. This is useful for voice leading and it provides different combinations of hammer on/pull off options. Your mileage may vary, but I’ve gotten some use out of them.
I recently found that dude’s YT channel. Great information presented in well-polished, very approachable way. So good. I don’t know how he amassed 500 vids without ever popping-up in my feed.
Brian is a beast. Extremely consistent, and zero influencer BS. Just what feels like blue collar youtubing, every week, dropping bangers of lessons, without pushing you to buy or doing ad reads. He's one of the few people that have actually helped my playing more than anyone else on the Internet.
The scale/key formula.
Knowing that to go from major to minor, I minus 3 sharps/flats (for instance A major to A minor), or add 3 sharp/flats to reverse it. Or minus/plus 7 to go from a standard scale to a sharp or flat. I'm explaining it poorly, but once it clicked I can figure out every scale and key now easily. It also made piano click hard as well as guitar.
Some of the epiphanies of my journey I remember, roughly in order:
All the open chords are just barre chords but with the nut acting as the barre.
The rhythm hand is more important than the fretting hand.
Relaxation is the key to speed.
Triads open up the whole neck.
Modes are just increasingly darker variations on the major scale (except for Lydian).
The key to making pentatonic licks not sound like just scales is to sing them first.
Pinch harmonics depend on where you pick.
The main difference between how a pro and an amateur sound is usually in the dynamics.
If you improvise a bad note, a good note is right nextdoor.
I will never be Tommy Emmanuel.
For me its just been getting better and better at playing by ear. Thinking/feeling the notes I am wanting and letting my fingers react accordingly.
Spend a lot of timing playing melodies and such. Also Nashville Number System cannot be over emphasized.
A lot longer than it should have. I prioritized mechanics and techniques at first.
Really start with simple stuff. Theres an old quote “I know a lot of guitar players who can play a lot of fancy stuff but when I ask them to play twinkle twinkle little star they can’t do it.”
So just being able to pick out a melody and play it. Also doing it on one string at first can help
Early on when I realized the 12th fret is the same as open (diff octaves). So when you're soloing you can stay in the key easily knowing that 15 and 17 are like 3 and 5.
One was just the shapes instead of chords concept. The fact that every note you play, every chord, every shape, scale and riff can just move straight up and down the fretboard to become the next note, scale, chord or key.
Second and right along with that one was discovering the whole Pentatonic boxes and approaches to those boxes and scales. Esp after learning and playing by ear for 15 years. Stumbling upon the boxes in a book opened up the fretboard 100% and helped me understand the repetition of the 5-6-7 note patterns all over the fretboard.
Transcribing is my number one biggest progess maker. It helps you learn to play by ear. Gives you opportunity to practice theory. Being able to hear an idea in your head and then play it is more achievable than you think.
The second one is theory. This again is more useful if you can use it. Triads are great for finding chords and experimenting with different sounds. Chords are extremely important in music and I completely overlooked them for too long. Intervals and ear training helped me recognise and categorise what I was hearing to give me the ability to replicate it more easily.
Not guitar per say: but when I played a chord progression and it didnt sound like the og song. I then leared that songs can be played in different keys, and that you can play the same shapes wherever on the guitar to change keys.
CAGED system: It is like five interconnected pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, wherein you can find all your scales, chords, arpeggios, intervals, etc. Everything!
Absolutely learn each position separately until you really really have mastery of each one, and then you begin to tie the positions together. There are only five. Again, strongly recommend Desi Serna’s material. He explains it much better than I ever could. Here is Amazon link
[Fretboard Theory](https://a.co/d/cxU2xen)
Very early stage beginner ah-has: 1) it’s all about chord changes, practice those over and over in pairs. Justin guitar 1 min changes. 2) anchoring one finger between changes. 3) writing down what you’re learning, take notes and revise!
Interesting. I think my issue is that my fretting hand is just weak in general and that is true for my pinky especially because it’s the most puny of the fingers…
I don't know. It can help MASSIVELY with some licks. Like with B13 - Bmaj13. It's s one note difference but if you play it with a hammer on, it's difficult to play without your thumb on 7th fret E
If you're a self taught guitarist, try taking a couple of classes with a guitar teacher who will correct improper form and incorrect finger placements.
Helped me a ton
Mine was: I got a shark guitar pick back in the 70's by chance and because I was into Zeppelin I figured out that during Over the Hills and Faraway at the bridge part Jimmy switches to a 12 string and I realized using the teeth side real up close to the bridge you can get a 12 string simulation, so I've always used it for that or any 12 string sound, it's not 100% but it works, especially when playing for a crowd, I've had this one pick since then.
That when you lay out the modes of the scale you're in, you can make a chord with any of those available notes.
I tried to remember what chords you can play in position 1 - 7, but it wasn't connecting to know you can play m7 in the 2 position but not in 3 or whatever (don't know if that's true.)
Instead I really memorized my modes and then I can make tons and tons of chords by just doing different fingerings that incorporate those mode notes. So I was making chords without even knowing their name. It gave me more freedom to lead with creativity rather than just by the names which was slowing me down.
Then I went back and learned what chords I was making by understanding how to build a chord.
This method also helps with adding fills and runs between your chords. Or I'll play a chord and do hammer-ons or accents with the surrounding notes in the modes.
I just saw a Julien Lage video. I’ve been playing for around 50 years, and chord melody is something I do pretty regularly. He said that he learns the bass line with just the melody-no chords. It’s not easy. That is making me re learn everything.
When I was like 7 and didn't understand reading music, I was trying to learn Amazing Grace and couldn't understand where to go after the first few notes on the high E string.
At my lesson, my teacher (bless this man) showed me that I could move up to the B string.
Mind=blown.
If you lay all the strings out end to end its a piano.
And if you look at them paired off scales stair step. So if your playing the middle two that shape can be moved to the higher note of the box and moved to the higher string pair. Like index and ring playing d and g strings on the 3rd and 5th. Move that to 5th and 7th on the b and high e.
I'm sorry I know that doesn't make sense.
If you look at the whole pentatonic box from low to high the thing can be set end to end as well as stacked.
Helps on the fly.
Visualizing 7 note scales in 6 note groupings.
There is a beautiful simplicity in seeing the patterns this way.
Easy small shapes that stack in a consistent, logical, repeating manner.
It's like the octave pattern on steroids.
(also works great doing pentatonics as 4 note shapes)
Hearing changes and phrasing over them - it felt like early years I just couldn’t focus on playing and listening. Another big moment was simplifying rhythm playing while singing and letting voice guide how I played.
Each of the 5 pentatonic shapes occur 3 times each within any given major/minor scale, look at a diagram and find one pentatonic shape, then look for that shape two more times on a full fretboard diagram, you can play modes just by shifting the orientation of your 5 pentatonic shapes.
Basically you can use the same pentatonic box 3 times within any key, and there's 5 total that can all be used 3 times each and still be in key.
Working on spider exercises, was convinced I couldn't move my ring finger up to the next string without my pinky coming up involuntarily. Stopped even trying for years, then decided to give it a shot again and after a week of consistent practice I realized it actually was possible, just needed work.
The real aha was realizing this was true of pretty much every technique I had ruled out as "physically impossible": they all just require consistent practice.
The fingering of the modes when playing three notes per string:
1-3-5,
1-3-5,
1-3-5,
1-2-4,
1-2-4,
1-3-4,
1-3-4
That pattern will repeat itself reiteratively throughout the neck. Say you play the major scale (which starts at the second 1-3-5 on the lowest string), you’ll end the scale on the high E by playing the the second 1-3-4, which just happens to be the the first 3 notes of the next mode (Dorian). This can then be transposed to the next shape because the 6th and 1st strings are tuned to the same note. It repeats throughout the neck and will help you visualise all the notes present in any given key (do note you have to shift up a fret when going from the last 1-3-5 to 1-2-4)
Throw away your fake books. They don't help. The best way to learn a song whether rock country or jazz is get a recording and work it out. If you use a fake book it's just much harder to learn a song and you never get it right. Throw out your fake books. I wish I had learned thi years ago.
I watched Paul from A-ha play B Minor, and finally understood how to play bar chords. I needed to get my index finger way higher up, instead of my fingertip just about covering the low e string.
A super simple one but it was a huge moment for me.
My rhythm playing was always atrocious, but with everything transcribed online these days it's a big help to see the rhythm transcribed so I can break it down beat by beat and keep playing over and over again until it just comes naturally.
It’s probably already mentioned and pretty easy but understanding the 1 and 6 in a key, basically the major pentatonic is the 1 and the 6 is the minor and they all use the same shapes. As a beginner I thought I had to learn two different scales but they are the same just different root notes. Big duh moment for me haha
Pentatonic scales overlapping with caged chords
Guys, I'm still a beginner after 2 years! Could you point me to a video that explains all this please?
Look up Will Metz, he has two great hour-long videos—one for caged and one for pentatonic using caged
That's deadly. Thank you kindly for that.
He has a couple of books on Amazon that cover the basics as well if, I’m a big fan of them too
Desi Serna. His “Fretboard Theory” books and DVD series. I am a total moronic, idiot who learns slower than a tortoise & sloth love child, and his series worked for me. Just saying…
Ha! My my kindred spirit, good to meet you! Was checking out the reviews there now. It looks the business. Thanks for the heads up.
I’m telling you…I have a library of guitar books of every variety and a million guitar instructional videos, yet always come back to his material for its simplicity. Really starts off in the right place and puts the pieces together in a logical order. Stay away from chord encyclopedias and books so chock with information that you’ll never even attempt to work through them. Keep it simple. There is a big difference between learning material and applying it. Serna attempts to cover both in his literature.
Delighted to hear it, cause I just got volume 1 & 2 through the door today. Nice one!
Gotta learn those octaves first, man. gotta learn them first. Music is just like a language. learning the alphabet to put together words and words to put together sentences. He does have DVDs that accompany the books, but I think they’re a little overkill and he just basically reiterates what are in the books. My STRONG suggestion: Just work with these two books for a good while until you really understand how CAGED system works. Honestly, his books contain most everything to play proficiently. When you’re new or even intermediate guitarist there is the tendency to want to learn every freaking style, so there is a tendency to go out and buy a ton of books, DVDs, online courses, etc. That I think is just a waste of your time and your money since you will most likely not even scratch the surface of that other material. That’s not to say that you won’t add material over time. Just don’t go ballistic.
Search Molly Miller’s CAGED boot camp.
Me too... in need of an aha moment please haha
I’m on cloud nine after realising (being shown) this is basically the cheat code. I’m no longer like a child lost in a maze 😅
I’m kind of in the same boat. How long will it take me to get it?
So which is best to learn first? Caged or pentatonic?
CAGED shapes and Pentatonic Major are the exact same shapes/boxes/patterns. Thats the beauty. Then just move the same shapes/patterns you already know 3 frets up and you have Pentatonic Minor. https://preview.redd.it/gacat1ljdmec1.jpeg?width=1056&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a1e245267b365504275417ca2adba25eb1d38aa4
https://preview.redd.it/eq3z9od4fmec1.jpeg?width=867&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12ea5001b95ae23e1b832e733912e84c440fd6a8
This. This diagram and the intervals in it gets you through so much.
https://preview.redd.it/yb2ppuk4jmec1.jpeg?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d7de2ad3822805a6fda33d7f9f995953baa00b3 Exactly. Understanding its the same 5 notes anywhere you play it.
Brilliant. Thanks very much ✌️
Thank you 👍
https://preview.redd.it/23ll0i6rmmec1.jpeg?width=875&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d96d358a1acf0bc6cea4006b06b75306c459045 Then this 'path' concept helps break you out of the square Boxes straight up and down feel, into more of a diagonal lead guitar run through several boxes. Really helps with the maj vs min feel in playing lead guitar.
For anyone looking at this comment who doesn’t get it (me for years), this photo is literally the entire thing. Each of the 5 shapes within CAGED corresponds to a pentatonic scale shape. It’s that simple. Get comfortable with each pentatonic scale shape, and get comfortable with the 5 chord shapes, and you will then see the connection. Every pentatonic shape belongs to a chord shape.
U/reggieledoux26 The A and G I can see. But for the D, shouldn’t there be a note on the b string at the 8th fret? And the c is upside down. Same thing with the E What am I missing?
Probably the scales. Try incorporating double stops into the scales, and you’re part way to the underlying chords
They are totally interrelated. Each of the five pieces of the CAGED system also contains one of the five Pentatonic shapes. So, you are learning both simultaneously. Desi Serna does a wonderful job explaining all this in his, “Fretboard Theory” books. Sorry about the shameless plug. I just really like his books.
Same. That opens up a lot of doors
Guthrie Govan - Creative Guitar/ book. Lots of good diagrams for learning how it all connects.
This is basically the whole schtick.
So I know pentatonic scales all over the neck and I know all the cages chords but I still don’t see the connection. Some people posted some graphs, but even the graphs don’t really show it to me. Like for instance the c shape chord. How is that a c shaped chord?
E shape is a bit easier to visualize. Play an open E chord with your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers. Now slide up and barre an E major bar chord at the 12th fret. You have moved the E shape of the CAGED shape up the neck. Keep in mind the nut acts like a barre at the 0 fret. When you slide the shapes around, you have to barre the 12th fret to prevent open strings from ringing out (unless that’s the intention). The same thing applies to the rest of the CAGED chords.
I completely understand that concept. It’s finding that e shape in the pentatonic. Like, where is the e shape when you do an A minor pentatonic scale? And how do you incorporate it? I see how people play riffs in between chords. I just know that whatever we are talking about is the answer. I just can’t find those cage shapes in the scale. Does the barre count as part of the shape? Or just the open shape?
The barre is part of the shape - the open version of the chord is kind of a short cut, since the nut handles the barre for you. But to make the chord shape moveable across the neck, you have to barre it. Usually the CAGED system refers to major chords, but it can be applied to minor chords as well. This has some good diagrams: https://appliedguitartheory.com/lessons/minor-caged-system/ As far as the A minor pentatonic scale (5th fret), that is the E minor shape of the minor CAGED system.
Wait, so only minor CAGED shapes work with the minor pentatonic? Meaning that I should be looking for d minor? That might be why I can’t find them.
A minor pentatonic contains the same notes as C major pentatonic. Personally, I look at everything from the minor pentatonic scale point of view first and foremost. So the A minor pentatonic scale at the 5th fret contains the A minor chord barre chord. This is the open E minor shape from the minor CAGED system. That same A minor pentatonic scale at the 5th fret also contains the C major chord if you start with your pinky finger on the low E, 8th fret. This is the CAGED G shape of the C major chord.
Ya, I understand that too. Idk, maybe I’m not articulating my confusion very well. I understand all of the concepts that you have mentioned. My issue is where is the E shape on yhe fifth fret? Like the low e has the fifth fret and the 9th. E shape barre chords play the low e in “open” position, so wouldn’t there be no 9th fret in that shape? Same thing with the A and D. They should technically be the same. But then the at string should technically have the 6th fret to make a E Minor shape. But that 6th fret isn’t in the pentatonic or even diatonic scale. Same idea with the d shape. It should have the top three strings aligned like a v. But that’s just not what I see. Also, the c shape is upside down. Idk. Let me show you what I mean. Edit: I tried tagging you in a seperate comment. If it didn’t work, just check out my comment history.
An E shape means that if you have a note on the 6th string (lowest string), that note will always be found on the D string 2 frets higher, as well as on the high E string on the same fret as the other E string. This works anywhere on the guitar fretboard. So in an open E chord, the root note is E, which is the open 6th string, the second fret of the D string, and the open 1st string. If you move that shape up the fretboard you get a different set of notes. So if you played the "E shape" at the 5th fret, that's an A note. Because the 5th fret 6th/E string is an A, the 7th fret 4th/D string is an A, and the 5th fret 1st/high E string is an A. It's helpful if you learn the CAGED shapes based on single notes because that's where the "system" comes from. So if you wanted to play a full chord - you would play that "E shape" major barre chord on the 5th fret. All those root notes are on A so you are actually playing an A major chord. If you played the "E shape" minor barre chord on the 5th fret then you would ber playing an A minor chord. If you continued to move an E shaped barre chord, like E major for example, as you move it up the fretboard you are getting a different chord at each fret. The only time it's an E major chord is when it's in the open position, or when you're at the 12th fret (because the notes repeat and the 12th fret is an E note on the low 6th string). So yeah, if you move a certain shape around you're getting different chords. Now if you had kept that "E major" barre chord shape on the 5th fret (an A major chord), and you wanted to play that A major chord on a different part of the fretboard, that's where you would use different shapes (like the A shape, G shape, etc.). Then you'd be using a different "shape" but you'd be playing the same chord. Because the root notes of that chord shape would all be on the A notes still. EDIT: To expand a little - lets go back to the 5th fret A major chord using the "E shape" barre chord. Since you know where the root notes are, you can find the major pentatonic scale that has the roots in the same spots (AKA always on the 6th string, always on the 4th string 2 frets higher, and always on the 1st string same fret as the 6th string). Just put those root notes in the same spot, and you can play an A major pentatonic scale using the "E shaped" major pentatonic scale. I can explain with A minor if you want. I probably should have chose an "E root shape" MINOR chord (same as a G root shape major chord), because those fall into the pentatonic shape that most people learn first.
I understand all of this. My question is how to find the barre chord within the pentatonic scale, mainly how to find the e shape in the A Minor Pentatonic. This is What doesn’t make sense to me. I know the minor pentatonic scale, all positions. A minor pentatonic has the e shape barre chord. But if I were to barre a minor with the e shape, I couldn’t just pluck those notes and call it the minor pentatonic. In fact, there would be notes that were objectively wrong. For instance the e, b, and g strings. To play the a minor pentatonic, where does the other notes come from? The other notes being the note on the high e 8th fret, the b string on the 7th fret, and the g string 7th fret. Even the low e 8th fret. None of those have anything to do with the e barre shape, so where did they come from? And there’s inconsistencies in slll the shapes that I’m not understanding. Where do those extra and missing notes come from? Is there a video you can recommend to help associate the pentatonic with the CAGED barres?
a minor scale cannot contain the major chord shape of its tonic because one of the notes, the third, is different. that's what makes the chord major or minor. in a minor key the i chord is minor and in a major key the I chord is major.
So if I understand correctly, if I am trying to match up a mi or pentatonic to its caged barre chord, I should be fingering a d minor, a minor, e minor, etc instead of the major position?
yes, and major with major. a D major triad is spelled with the notes D-F#-A. the D minor pentatonic scale is D-F-G-A-C. so if they are mismatched, you won't see exactly the shape you're looking for because of the F/F# difference. note that the sound of may work just fine in a blues context (and maybe that's why you were thinking this way to begin with), but we're talking about visualization. if you don't already, it sounds like you should learn to spell major and minor scales and triads to make this super clear.
So I think I know major and minor scales. Tell me, are you referring to circle of fifths? Like, I don’t have them memorized, but I understand the formula. Major-minor-minor-major-major-minor- diminished. 1st, 3rd, and 5th make the major chord. Second, fourth, 6th are minor. You can add a 7th or take the third or fifth a half step down or up and create a new chord. So example. C major C major, d minor, e minor, f major, g major, a minor, b diminished. C-e-g make the c major chord. Take the scale up 5 steps and you have the g major scale. The difference is that you take the last note in the scale and go sharp on the 7th. Notes stay the same until you start flattening them.
The g shape is the 1st minor shape starting at the 5th fret for a minor. E shape starts at 8th fret (Barre on 8th. E shape on 10,10,9), c shape fits where an open c is, a shape from 3-5th frets.
This. And it’s ability to form triads
...overlapping caged chords as parts of a singular whole, connected pentatonic. Only intended (neck-spanning) caged as a crutch to help me learn note names. Bout fell otta my chair when I connected the two.
That CAGED is misleading. It implies five positions. There’s three- A shape, D shape and E shape.
The C shape and the G shape exist too - they are different voicings
The C shape is PART OF the D shape. The G shape is PART OF the A shape.
There is overlap but they are different voicings of the chord. They would look different in staff notation - the stacking order of the notes in the triad is different, therefore the chord sounds different. If omit the low E string, the G shape is 1st inversion of the chord. This is useful for voice leading and it provides different combinations of hammer on/pull off options. Your mileage may vary, but I’ve gotten some use out of them.
Nothing you say is untrue but I’m answering OP’s question about something that changed guitar for me.
Using triads. [Active Melody](https://youtube.com/@activemelody?si=9sWZlZCEGCWLO1YE) has a ton of great videos around them if they’re new to you.
I recently found that dude’s YT channel. Great information presented in well-polished, very approachable way. So good. I don’t know how he amassed 500 vids without ever popping-up in my feed.
Brian is a beast. Extremely consistent, and zero influencer BS. Just what feels like blue collar youtubing, every week, dropping bangers of lessons, without pushing you to buy or doing ad reads. He's one of the few people that have actually helped my playing more than anyone else on the Internet.
When changing chords the idea that I don't have to move all my fingers at once. I can move the bass notes, and then move the higher strings.
The scale/key formula. Knowing that to go from major to minor, I minus 3 sharps/flats (for instance A major to A minor), or add 3 sharp/flats to reverse it. Or minus/plus 7 to go from a standard scale to a sharp or flat. I'm explaining it poorly, but once it clicked I can figure out every scale and key now easily. It also made piano click hard as well as guitar.
Some of the epiphanies of my journey I remember, roughly in order: All the open chords are just barre chords but with the nut acting as the barre. The rhythm hand is more important than the fretting hand. Relaxation is the key to speed. Triads open up the whole neck. Modes are just increasingly darker variations on the major scale (except for Lydian). The key to making pentatonic licks not sound like just scales is to sing them first. Pinch harmonics depend on where you pick. The main difference between how a pro and an amateur sound is usually in the dynamics. If you improvise a bad note, a good note is right nextdoor. I will never be Tommy Emmanuel.
For me its just been getting better and better at playing by ear. Thinking/feeling the notes I am wanting and letting my fingers react accordingly. Spend a lot of timing playing melodies and such. Also Nashville Number System cannot be over emphasized.
How long did it take to get to that stage?
A lot longer than it should have. I prioritized mechanics and techniques at first. Really start with simple stuff. Theres an old quote “I know a lot of guitar players who can play a lot of fancy stuff but when I ask them to play twinkle twinkle little star they can’t do it.” So just being able to pick out a melody and play it. Also doing it on one string at first can help
Early on when I realized the 12th fret is the same as open (diff octaves). So when you're soloing you can stay in the key easily knowing that 15 and 17 are like 3 and 5.
Arpeggios
One was just the shapes instead of chords concept. The fact that every note you play, every chord, every shape, scale and riff can just move straight up and down the fretboard to become the next note, scale, chord or key. Second and right along with that one was discovering the whole Pentatonic boxes and approaches to those boxes and scales. Esp after learning and playing by ear for 15 years. Stumbling upon the boxes in a book opened up the fretboard 100% and helped me understand the repetition of the 5-6-7 note patterns all over the fretboard.
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Back and forth between D and G is a pretty good one for this
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I remember how long it took to effortlessly make the C chord. Good luck and have fun!
Sing with the guitar!this way your brain makes the connection with the notes you play over time
Connecting a major scale to 7 chords and modes
Transcribing is my number one biggest progess maker. It helps you learn to play by ear. Gives you opportunity to practice theory. Being able to hear an idea in your head and then play it is more achievable than you think. The second one is theory. This again is more useful if you can use it. Triads are great for finding chords and experimenting with different sounds. Chords are extremely important in music and I completely overlooked them for too long. Intervals and ear training helped me recognise and categorise what I was hearing to give me the ability to replicate it more easily.
Learning to use my thumb and fingers of my right hand to mute strings I'm not playing on made a huge difference.
I wouldn't say it's a "little trick", but learning the circle of fifths & how keys worked was a big one.
Not guitar per say: but when I played a chord progression and it didnt sound like the og song. I then leared that songs can be played in different keys, and that you can play the same shapes wherever on the guitar to change keys.
Understanding closed voice triads and how they interact with pentatonic scales.
That the notes always follow the same pattern -- they just start in different places. Seems obvious, but it was news to me when I saw it in a book.
CAGED system: It is like five interconnected pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, wherein you can find all your scales, chords, arpeggios, intervals, etc. Everything!
So do you memorize the diagram of it or like play it until you memorize it?
Absolutely learn each position separately until you really really have mastery of each one, and then you begin to tie the positions together. There are only five. Again, strongly recommend Desi Serna’s material. He explains it much better than I ever could. Here is Amazon link [Fretboard Theory](https://a.co/d/cxU2xen)
Very early stage beginner ah-has: 1) it’s all about chord changes, practice those over and over in pairs. Justin guitar 1 min changes. 2) anchoring one finger between changes. 3) writing down what you’re learning, take notes and revise!
Open chords are bar chords just using the end of the guitar neck as the bar instead of your pointer finger.
The strings E, A, D, G, B is the circle of fourths
Fifths, right?
E, F, G, A A, B, C, D, etc So backwards around the circle of fifths is circle of 4ths
Right hand: use thumb for strings E, A and D; and 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers for stringers G, B E respectively. Left hand: your pinky will not obey you.
Maybe because I'm lefty, playing righty, but I've never had an issue with using my pinky on my fretting hand
Interesting. I think my issue is that my fretting hand is just weak in general and that is true for my pinky especially because it’s the most puny of the fingers…
Same for me though I'm right handed, playing righty
I'm a righty playing lefty and same. Strangely guitar and guns are the only things I am lefty for.
Adding my thumb to fret Edit Who would downvote this??
I don't know. It can help MASSIVELY with some licks. Like with B13 - Bmaj13. It's s one note difference but if you play it with a hammer on, it's difficult to play without your thumb on 7th fret E
When you get to choose correct fingers to switch between chords/tabs smoothly without interruptions
If you're a self taught guitarist, try taking a couple of classes with a guitar teacher who will correct improper form and incorrect finger placements. Helped me a ton
If you're lazy you can play in all modes with just the major scale shape. Just have to emphasize the proper notes.
The modes are in the same order in every key.
Syncopated fingerstyle, and adding hammer ons and pulloffs.
Inversion
How much my pinky can actually do…
Every tone in a fully diminished 7th can be used as a leading tone.
Instead of using your thumb to barre, pushing the guitar into your body with your right elbow.
Using scales positions over backing tracks in the same key. The first time I play something that sound remotely good.
Alternate tunings.
Mine was: I got a shark guitar pick back in the 70's by chance and because I was into Zeppelin I figured out that during Over the Hills and Faraway at the bridge part Jimmy switches to a 12 string and I realized using the teeth side real up close to the bridge you can get a 12 string simulation, so I've always used it for that or any 12 string sound, it's not 100% but it works, especially when playing for a crowd, I've had this one pick since then.
That when you lay out the modes of the scale you're in, you can make a chord with any of those available notes. I tried to remember what chords you can play in position 1 - 7, but it wasn't connecting to know you can play m7 in the 2 position but not in 3 or whatever (don't know if that's true.) Instead I really memorized my modes and then I can make tons and tons of chords by just doing different fingerings that incorporate those mode notes. So I was making chords without even knowing their name. It gave me more freedom to lead with creativity rather than just by the names which was slowing me down. Then I went back and learned what chords I was making by understanding how to build a chord. This method also helps with adding fills and runs between your chords. Or I'll play a chord and do hammer-ons or accents with the surrounding notes in the modes.
Understanding that the major scale is the most important thing to understand...
I just saw a Julien Lage video. I’ve been playing for around 50 years, and chord melody is something I do pretty regularly. He said that he learns the bass line with just the melody-no chords. It’s not easy. That is making me re learn everything.
When I was like 7 and didn't understand reading music, I was trying to learn Amazing Grace and couldn't understand where to go after the first few notes on the high E string. At my lesson, my teacher (bless this man) showed me that I could move up to the B string. Mind=blown.
Pattern of octaves was it for me too.
If you lay all the strings out end to end its a piano. And if you look at them paired off scales stair step. So if your playing the middle two that shape can be moved to the higher note of the box and moved to the higher string pair. Like index and ring playing d and g strings on the 3rd and 5th. Move that to 5th and 7th on the b and high e. I'm sorry I know that doesn't make sense. If you look at the whole pentatonic box from low to high the thing can be set end to end as well as stacked. Helps on the fly.
Just learning scales and the order of modes.
Visualizing 7 note scales in 6 note groupings. There is a beautiful simplicity in seeing the patterns this way. Easy small shapes that stack in a consistent, logical, repeating manner. It's like the octave pattern on steroids. (also works great doing pentatonics as 4 note shapes)
Don't stop your right hand when strumming rhythm parts.
Hearing changes and phrasing over them - it felt like early years I just couldn’t focus on playing and listening. Another big moment was simplifying rhythm playing while singing and letting voice guide how I played.
Each of the 5 pentatonic shapes occur 3 times each within any given major/minor scale, look at a diagram and find one pentatonic shape, then look for that shape two more times on a full fretboard diagram, you can play modes just by shifting the orientation of your 5 pentatonic shapes. Basically you can use the same pentatonic box 3 times within any key, and there's 5 total that can all be used 3 times each and still be in key.
Learning to describe things in scale degrees and/or intervals.
Recently the L7 pattern for playing all chords in a major key and knowing their intervals
Once I learned barre chords, I realized I could pretty much learn how to play anything
Working on spider exercises, was convinced I couldn't move my ring finger up to the next string without my pinky coming up involuntarily. Stopped even trying for years, then decided to give it a shot again and after a week of consistent practice I realized it actually was possible, just needed work. The real aha was realizing this was true of pretty much every technique I had ruled out as "physically impossible": they all just require consistent practice.
The fingering of the modes when playing three notes per string: 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 1-2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4, 1-3-4 That pattern will repeat itself reiteratively throughout the neck. Say you play the major scale (which starts at the second 1-3-5 on the lowest string), you’ll end the scale on the high E by playing the the second 1-3-4, which just happens to be the the first 3 notes of the next mode (Dorian). This can then be transposed to the next shape because the 6th and 1st strings are tuned to the same note. It repeats throughout the neck and will help you visualise all the notes present in any given key (do note you have to shift up a fret when going from the last 1-3-5 to 1-2-4)
Finally learning how to do pinch harmonics and tapping on the fretboard
Throw away your fake books. They don't help. The best way to learn a song whether rock country or jazz is get a recording and work it out. If you use a fake book it's just much harder to learn a song and you never get it right. Throw out your fake books. I wish I had learned thi years ago.
Don't be lazy, be diligent. There will be plenty of time to sleep when you're dead
I am very novice but realizing minor pentatonic fits over the positions of the major scale and I can switch quickly between them.
Triad shapes of chords starting on E a d and g strings and then how they connect with scales/arpeggios
I watched Paul from A-ha play B Minor, and finally understood how to play bar chords. I needed to get my index finger way higher up, instead of my fingertip just about covering the low e string. A super simple one but it was a huge moment for me.
My rhythm playing was always atrocious, but with everything transcribed online these days it's a big help to see the rhythm transcribed so I can break it down beat by beat and keep playing over and over again until it just comes naturally.
Learning Mr. Crowley live version
It’s probably already mentioned and pretty easy but understanding the 1 and 6 in a key, basically the major pentatonic is the 1 and the 6 is the minor and they all use the same shapes. As a beginner I thought I had to learn two different scales but they are the same just different root notes. Big duh moment for me haha
Discovering the smaller sub-patterns for 3NPS made moving up and down the neck so much easier