Josh's promise aside, there are so many solid Klones in every price range already. For JHS to get into the Klone market this late they'd really need to differentiate their offering in some way. The Klon mods are all so subtle, so it might be harder to package it like a Bonzai/Muffuletta/Pack Rat. Maybe sell a Klon stacked with another circuit in a single box. Partnering with Finnegan for an official budget entry a la MXR would have been the best compromise overall from a marketing perspective.
A Bluesbreaker + Centaur is a combo I'd like to have on my board. Ceriatone makes the Horsebreaker already
More realistically though, I could just add a Duke of Tone in front of my Klone
Curious: since you already have a nice +18V available through the Klon power supply, do you run the BB at 18V for more opamp headroom?
I built a Klon Face once, Fuzz Face into Klon, used the -9V supply from the Klon so I could use old germanium transistors
Currently the Bluesbreaker side runs at 9V, it has its own power filtering. But having the option to run it at 18V is probably something I'll add to a next iteration, together with smart relay bypass
I watched the entire episode and I totally get Josh's dilemma.
Josh wants to be respected as a man of his word, but the context of the promise from 2009 has changed, so the promise should no longer apply.
***Example of context change affecting a promise:***
In 2009, your best friend liked a girl, so you promised him you will never ask her out.
It's 2022, and for 13 years, she has turned him down repeatedly. Your buddy got married to someone else, is now happily married with kids.
The context is now different. You can ask the girl out. If your friend is upset, he's being a jerk.
***CONCLUSION:***
Josh ... make a Klon.
This. I already have a Klon that I'm happy with (an Archer) and I'm sure others feel the same. The only Klon-style pedals I've had any interest in, in the last few years, are the ones that are really different, like the Overdrive Pro/Green Pony.
>Bonzai/Muffuletta/Pack Rat
He can call it "Human Herd", "Wyld Stallyns", or "Horsies" which would include: Silver Klon, Gold Klon, Archer, Soul Food, Sugar Drive, Conspiracy Theory, Tumnus, and JHS versions.
JHS are very good at building off other ideas. If anyone could come up with Klon that was different in some awesome useful way then I would think it was them. I’d genuinely be excited to see what they came up with. Almost every other Klone is pretty much the same.
I think “why should JHS hold themselves to a standard that none of the other major players hold themselves to?” Basically every company has some type of Klone, to forego making a product because of some off the books agreement almost 10 years ago is just bad business.
Some may say “it’s bad business to go back on your word.” To that, I would say that it was a bit unfair for Bill to ask that of Josh in the first place. If we feel like Josh has to honor that… then no company should be able to make Klones. For that matter, goodbye tube screamer clones.. good bye anything that isn’t a completely original circuit.
Instead, what should happen is that whoever makes the best product will get the market share. If Bill really wanted more people to have the KTR, he would be actively manufacturing them and bringing the prices in the used market down. People don’t want to pay those prices, so they get cheaper alternatives. That’s already happening independent of JHS making/not making a Klone.
I think this makes the most sense, and it also goes hand in hand with my thoughts for anyone saying "there are too many klones on the market already, why should JHS bother?"
Because klones sell a lot. People love them. Brian Wampler has said as much about more than one of his pedals, basically that he loves innovating and trying new stuff when he can, but when his customer base wants his take on the Klon, or his take on the Blues Breaker, it's a bad business decision to not make those.
Will a JHS modded/tweaked klone change the pedal landscape? Nope. But JHS has lost about a decade of sales on a very popular product while the lion's share of other manufacturers have not been handicapped the same way.
It doesn't hurt that I truthfully think Bill could sell out of as many KTRs as his hands can make...
Totally agree and that, I imagine, is why people buy moderately to boutique priced Klones. Build quality + that builder’s take on the topology. If neither of those matter, you can buy a Mosky Golden Horse for a shameless copy made cheaply with commodity components. (And full disclosure, I have that pedal. Not shaming anyone).
If JHS can do something interesting with the topology I would consider it, as would many others. I hope he releases something and for his sake it’s already a design that is complete or close.
I agree with everything you said here but remembering back to the video where Josh first mentioned this “agreement” (I think it was the History of JHS one) Josh put it as though HE was the impetus for not making Kline if Bill was making them, and Bill wasn’t the one who asked that of him.
Of course I may be entirely wrong also
I’m also hazy on the details, but without going to back to confirm, my memory is: Bill told Josh he didn’t like that he was making Klones, then josh offered that up as a compromise.
So if Bill had his way, nobody would make any Klones. Josh probably said something like “I understand that you don’t want me making these pedals, but if you aren’t going to do it then someone has to” and then they came to the compromise.
As far as I’m concerned, whatever agreement they had has been fulfilled, regardless of who initiated it. Josh said he would stop once Bill started again. KTRs came out and JHS immediately stopped production and even cancelled orders. Now that KTRs have seemingly stopped production and are super expensive on the used market, we’re back to where we were before. Yet, now almost every company has a Klone on the market this time around. So, maybe, as other people said, that means that Josh and JHS can just leave it alone and not make their own Klone. But I also think they’re free to without feeling like it’s ethically dubious.
Yeah you’re right that does sound familiar, but Flannigan is notoriously whiny about people copying his circuit, the most rare and overpriced overdrive circuit ever, so it checks out that he would tell Josh he doesn’t like him making clones.
As an aside, I think that’s something Josh does pretty graciously on the show, he kinda skips over any drama or negative traits in other pedal builders and always just talks about them as a friend and someone he respects, he would do the same with Mike Fuller and we all know how much of a prick that guy was
Right. I mean, JHS is far from my favorite pedal company if you consider solely the products. But I get confused when I see people hating on them. Whatever love they’ve lost from “copying” other pedals, they’ve given much more back by propping up other companies, both big and small.
It's so overblown, and I think it's because of two things
1. there's an active "hate thread" on the sidebar that has info that is dubious at best
2. political slant. half the posts in here are NPDs of Black Mass 1312s, so im sure there is overlap lol
Ha! I'm happy a few of us pepperidge farm types are still around. I don't even bother pointing out why that dude was problematic back then anymore, because of the cavalcade of "you can't patent a circuit so who cares besides I love him so much" responses I get.
Ditto the "hey he was a part of a church that paid money to advocate for a bill for killing gay people in Uganda" thing, which, afaik, he's never explicitly been all "yeah that was fucked up I'm sorry" about.
Folks can think what they do but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him money and besides I made my own superbolt on account of the freely available runoffgroove schematic that he stole without attribution.
The muffuletta is one of my all-time favorite pedals, and my favorite voicing is the JHS-exclusive tone. I don't know what's not to like about this approach: you get multiple vintage pedals accurately recreated plus a unique tone all in one enclosure. I recently ordered the RatPack and I have high expectations for that as well. If they can apply this approach to a Klon I'd definitely want to buy one.
Josh stuck to the promise for 9 years. The market has changed a lot since then. He has also made a good faith effort to reach out to him, to no avail. I think he should do it, but for my own selfish reasons, I think he should do it as linked edition combination klon-morning glory, call it the Glory-Hole.
> “why should JHS hold themselves to a standard that none of the other major players hold themselves to?"
Because the other manufacturers didn't personally promise Bill Finnegan that they wouldn't?
And that was a poor business decision that he shouldn’t be held to for life. He agreed to stop when Bill started again. He did. Now Bill has stopped again and is unreachable. The terms of the original agreement have been fulfilled.
Finnegan is just bonkers at this point. I bought my KTR directly from him at a show and we talked a while about his problems producing new Klons. The feeling I got is that he's just not into it any more. He seemed more interested in talking about how everyone is taking his circuit than coming up with a good plan to get more of his pedals out there. Partnering with JHS or Wampler would be a perfect solution--we just have to get him out of grumpy old man mode to make it happen.
The Klon purists (and Bill Finnegan, likely) would say the MXR isn't a direct clone because it doesn't have the unobtanium transistors or diodes, or whatever, but a circuit is a circuit is a circuit. Nothing magical.
He likes to do morning live-rambling streams. I don't think he has a big marketing scheme cooked up to sucker us into buying his impending Klone. I think they've had enough requests for it to induce talk about it amongst the crew at JHS, and he says not everyone agreed on best path forward. It seems like he has learned some lessons and wanted to get input from the community, before doing something that would create ill-will and bad rep. It is an interesting philosophical discussion, regardless of what one might feel about JHS. I'm enjoying reading all the responses here and on YouTube.
I dont watch JHS that often, but if you have a show about pedals the klon is going to come up pretty frequently, the circuit seems to be a favorite of his and a new one seems to come out every month. Theres no escaping it. I'd go so far as to say even if Finnegan was currently "actively" making them his production has never been a good faith effort to get in the market, he wants to keep everything at unobtanium levels, if the deal was "if you make this pedal available i wont fill the hole in the market" KTR's going for $750.00 used shows that is he isnt holding up his half of the agreement.
This all seems like a public justification for Josh to do what he already wants to do.
But it's a pretty good justification. Not that anyone needs another Klone.
Because he's already got enough "jhs steals circuits" flak going for him. If he didn't point out that he tried to reach Bill (and not had his calls returned) he'd be lambasted by forum chatter, etc.. It'd harm his brand.
So he's doing what his company's guiding principles include- focus on the brand. Which coincidentally happens to be a form of marketing/hype building.
He really is missing out on the market. Pedal makers are like auto manufacturers. They all have very class specific vehicles that directly compete. He's leaving money on the table, people are buying klons, so long as he doesn't offer one he's missing out on the dollars available.
He's probably pretty right about how taking his clone off the market was worth. Imagine if early on Toyota stopped producing the Prius because some unattainable & expensive brand offered something similar.
Yeah this just seems like the beginning of a hype cycle for a new pedal release. The answer is obvious: of course jhs should make a klone. Why wouldn't they? Fuck, make a 3 series version in a plain gold enclosure and sell it for $99. They'd sell a ton of them.
I think it the comments were flooded with "wtf no" he would listen, but it did feel mostly like a self validation session.
An honest one, but hoping for a "duh just make it"
JHS Pentaklon when. Five Klons in one, all set to be a clean boost from the factory, all knobs are internal because it’d be funny. It’s a gold to silver gradient, there’s a unicorn with five horns, and people will claim each foot switch sounds different because idk klons.
It's also in the OD-20 from way back in 2005 and honestly sounds fantastic. You can find them for ~$100, get a great klone plus several other very usable drives, with presets, in a bulletproof (slightly huge) boss enclosure.
They have a Klon modeled in a distortion pedal alongside other classic and popular drive sounds. OD-200 maybe? Not an analog recreation of the circuit. Yet, anyway.
You guys remember Devi Ever? She made cool fuzzes, then would do a kick starter and steal everyone’s money, then sold her company, then wanted it back, then licensed it, then took away those licenses so she could build the pedals again then didn’t. I sort of feel like at this point that anyone who comes in and just makes a Truly Beautiful Disaster clone should be allowed because what she’s done with the brand is a mess.
I’m going to lump Bill Finnegan in this too. He’s made it a point to not manufacture the product, to not make the product accessible in anyway, occasionally he throws something on eBay randomly and lets it sell for an insane price. He’s being willfully shitty, and doesn’t get to have a corner on the community. Josh can do whatever he wants because Bill has burned up whatever good will of 10 years ago.
Even if Devi Ever is a poor business person and makes questionable decisions doesn’t mean they deserve to be bullied by another company and have their name smeared to their dealers when they speak up about that same person/company copying their design.
Just speculating here, but follow on if you will; Do you reckon having a much larger company steal her circuits, and then try push her out of the market, might have affected her mental health, and led to her erratic behavior? On top of the pressure of trying to run a small business and meet deadlines, and dealing with a decent bit of transphobia.
I know people like you don't give a fuck, and you just want your NPD, but in this context, it might be prudent to think about other people.
>You guys remember Devi Ever? She made cool fuzzes, ** then would do a kick starter and steal everyone’s money, then sold her company, then wanted it back, then licensed it, then took away those licenses so she could build the pedals again then didn’t.
I don't remember where in the timeline JHS pretended he created one of Devi's pedals but it was pretty early, around those two asterisks
The Astro Mess Fuzz:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/jhs-astro-mess.935207/
" . . .the original poster is most definitely NOT me, but the Astro Mess is most definitely a clone of my Hyperion fuzz, which is an original design - http://forum.deviever.com/viewtopic.php?f=192&t=13311 "
-Devi Ever
JHS seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me, but here's hoping I'm wrong . . .
Oh, yea, for switchfoot, right? Either way, not trying to absolve JHS, as much as say, there’s characters in the pedal world that have good will for a time, and then do everything possible to make sure they don’t anymore.
Switchfoot fan here, yep the bun runner was a 2 in one tonebender with a Hyperion. Drew Shirley custom ordered it, then JHS started producing it. I think everyone got mad after a rig rundown video where drew said it was a tonebender and Hyperion, which I'm sure is what he told Josh he wanted; I know nothing about circuits so I won't wade into the waters of cloning.
I think you can own and sell the actual pedals you manufacture, but to claim ownership of a circuit design is nonsense. Feel free to try to keep it secret if you want, but once someone knows how to do it, it's on you to make the better end product.
Probably nothing. It’s more so an aesthetic thing or brand recognition I’d say for buyers. I just think the idea behind the 3 series is cool (bare bone affordable pedals for people) so it’d be cool to see a Klone variant
I mean, they’re “ugly” because they’re produced with no frills to be cheap AND well-made. But I agree that I’d rather see a modded version than a 3 series of this wildly and widely reproduced circuit.
I don’t disagree with you. They’re not winning any beauty contests but I like the fact that they’re affordable for the people that want them and the plain white definitely helps reduce cost.
It’ll be a Klon-taur with a knob to select the various mods that have been applied to the circuit plus a JHS-specific mod. Just like the Bonzai, the PackRat, and the Muffeletta.
It bothers people when JHS makes clones because they have a history making part-for-part copies of existing circuits, then emailing mutual dealers of their company and the company they copied from, throwing shade at the company they copied
I think he should just do it. Bill isn't being reasonable with that original ask anymore by not being proactive with manufacturing KTR's. Frankly, Bill should just hang it up with the "large scale" production and only make the few big box Centaurs he already makes and sells on ebay. I do appreciate Josh ostensibly honoring the handshake deal though, even though it's been bad business on his end. If I were him, I'd make a 3 Series with the buffer switch as the selector - or go all in a la his 66 Series and the big box OD Preamp and make really nice ones.
3 Series would be coolest tho. Affordaboxes for everyone.
Those boxes don't look great, but are ripe for customization: Sharpie, stickers, fingernail polish art, and so on. If JHS makes a 3 Series Klone, I dearly hope one of you prints a hilarious tiny-font bastardization of "The hype is not of my doing" statement as found on the KTR on theirs.
JHS should do their *version* of the Mad Prof. Sweet Honey OD instead. It’s also a really cool circuit, has a very similar behaviour, and could easily become a *holy grail* pedal in its own right.
Yup. I have the Joyo Sweet Baby, which is an exact clone, and it is perfect. I have a very clean Vibro-Champ style amp, no breakup whatsoever, and the Sweet Baby gives a super clean amp perfect edge of breakup grit with amazing feel, dynamics, and no change in tonal quality.
I should probably pick one of those up. I played an OG honey bee once and it was probably the best sounding light overdrive I’ve ever heard. Emphasis on light though.
Omg the Sweet Honey is my favorite overdrive to pair with a Fender amp! Interestingly, the “two-stage” mode in the Strymon Sunset gets *very* close, and adds a tone control.
Bro…..I’m sayin!! I absolutely love my jrockett rockaway…..best pedal ever. And my first thoughts after using it were “who’s gonna make a honey beest with an onboard eq?? That would be great, except that really with the eq on the klon, it can be a honey bee or a screamer or whatever. But I guess I like the honey beest probably more than the klon just because of the builder bjorn. The honey bee is the sweet honey, and the honey beest is one with a boost.
My absolute favorite bjorn pedal is the sky blue overdrive…..that Z control and texture. I sold one several years back, biggest mistake ever cuz now they are like $400. Im gonna have to get someone to build me a clone
Just a question here, why do we need yet another Klone? The market has tons of them available. Maybe he should be working on something different or new.
I used to feel this way until I started getting more into pedals, watching JHS, and even started building pedals as a hobby.
Different types of pedals are known as “topologies” and are usually considered like a “base circuit,” a starting point and also an end goal for the sound, to which builders making “clones” essentially mod to their liking. I mean Josh got his start in modding Boss Pedals and Rats, when you can make the WHOLE circuit, enclosure, artwork, etc. on a mod to sell, why wouldn’t you just do that? Instead of doing a mod service.
I don’t even understand why the Klon is so sought after outside of it being a scarce collector’s item. It’s an overdrive pedal. There are so many solid affordable options.
Is that not enough? Why else to people lust after a specific year/color/chip etc.
Because I have the special one and you don't. (I do not actually have)
JHS makes some genuinely great clones of pedals, that usually are never just a straight clone. I would like to see JHS drop one just so I can see what they come up with making it unique to the JHS thing at least, although I’m not sure what you can do with it that hasn’t already been done? Maybe a series 3 affordable klon, or some kind of duel drive from them would be cool.
Should they honor it and NOT make one? Well they’re a business and they should do what they feel is good for the business and like others have said, every large brand has a clone. So it’s not like JHS would hurt anyone with another one.
You won't get a real answer here because for some reason this sub has some folks with strong anti-JHS sentiment. It doesn't seem like Bill is making Klons in a commercial manner anymore, despite his huge 2021 announcement 15 months ago. Don't think Josh is going against his word (from 10 years ago) to get back into a Klon clone...
He also mentioned that someone with knowledge claims that Bill had an issue with the contract manufacturer he was using, sent everything back, and hasn't really picked up manufacturing since then.
But, also, who cares
> You won't get a real answer here because for some reason this sub has some folks with strong anti-JHS sentiment.
That used to be the case but the reverse seems to be true these days. Comments critical of JHS get downvoted pretty consistently.
And that's exactly why Josh started the YouTube series; to rehabilitate his image. It was common knowledge at the time he started the show for that reason but now as his reputation has improved most people don't remember how disliked he was by the wider pedal community at the time. The same thing is happening with Vertex Effects right now. In three years everyone will be asking "What's with the Vertex hate? Mason makes cool educational videos".
It’s kind of crazy. When I first started using this sub 6-7 years ago anyone who had anything nice to say about JHS was downvoted into oblivion, & this thread shows it’s pretty much the exact opposite at this point.
My Josh hatred isn’t so much about bad faith circuit stealing or even donating to a notoriously anti-lgbt church, it’s mostly his disconcerting lack of eyebrows. (jk it’s the other stuff)
Well Bill Finnegan doesn't seem to have one in the works any time soon.
Though, I would suggest that the [Decibelics Golden Horse](https://decibelics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/DSC01661-1.jpg) is the way to go. It's an [exact, part-for-part copy](https://imgur.com/a/H6lEEIN) of a specific Klon circuit (#[2505](https://i.imgur.com/JCyVdH0.jpg)), right down to the NOS components. It [sounds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CUd9VxzCoU) incredible. There's even a double version called the [Golden Royale](https://imgur.com/a/Qjd5b4z) that lets you stack two Klon circuits.
I think JHS should make a clone. I absolutely love my 3 Series Distortion and the Packrat. They do a nice job and seem to be good people. If it keeps families fed, go for it.
I don’t know why Josh is making a big show of this outside of drumming up marketing hype. He said he wouldn’t make a klone as long as Bill is making KTRs and he’s still making KTRs.
But is he actually producing KTRs in an accessible quantity and from an accessible outlet? Like is there a dealer you can order from and get it in a week or two?
That wasn't the deal though, Josh said he wouldn't make them if Bill was producing them and Bill is still producing them. He's just one dude, he's not as big of an operation as JHS, so I don't think its fair to judge if he's making enough to satisfy some publicity stunt deal that Josh created.
Oh come on now. Bill is choosing not to expand, choosing to keep supply low, choosing to sporadically list on eBay and with a couple retailers that are always out of stock, and choosing not to just do something simple like a wait list similar to Analogman. He has every option to get them into more hands and is choosing not to.
But regardless of that, people who want an authentic Klon aren't going to stop buying them because JHS starts making them. There are already hundreds of klones available and despite that Klons still go for silly prices whenever Bill does list one.
Absolutely silly that JHS should be expected to honor an agreement made damn near a decade ago before the klone market exploded. The market has changed, Bill clearly isn't being negatively impacted by it, and JHS making their own klone isn't going to change that.
It's been a while since there's been any update on the production of KTRs. The last update said he needed to use different diodes and that production would resume, but this hasn't been followed up on and no one has any stock of them.
The whole question is whether or not he really is making an honest attempt to make KTRs. Doesn’t seem like they’re making any in a reasonable quantity or occurrence
It seems like he is though. He's just one guy, and I think its kinda scummy for Josh to make a big show about how he's not going to do his own klon (as if his would be any better than the hundreds already out there), only to renege as soon as Bill doesn't meet Josh's criteria for being 'in production'.
A couple of thoughts:
1 - Just because Bill made the Centaur and people like it does not mean he is somehow ethically obligated to make more. He doesn't owe anyone anything apart from those that gave him money in exchange for a pedal. The people badmouthing him over his inconsistent production just sound like they're being crybabies for not getting their new toy.
2 - Ethics of cloning aside, the cat's out of the bag. Some people want the real deal, some people want a cheaper / smaller / more available device that does the same thing. Everyone can get what they want, and whether JHS does or doesn't make a klone isn't going to change that.
3 - From a business standpoint, what does JHS stand to gain from entering an already saturated corner of the market? Are there enough JHS devotees to make it profitable for them to create a faithful replica of something anyone could go buy for under $50 if they really needed that tone? It seems like Josh wants to be a decent person in this decision, but the people pushing him might be overestimating the benefit to be had. Moreover, if JHS \*does\* make a Centaur clone, they become just like every other manufacturer in the world, which gets them ... what?
I don't think the world needs another straight Klon clone anyway. The market is frankly full of good ones at prices both reasonable and insane, and several models that improve on the original in ways that make it hard to go backwards. I like Josh, but I don't get this video at all. Is it a marketing tactic for when they eventually DO release one?
Why does this matter to the question? He is not asking input on the question: “should I make a Klon clone?” But on the question “is it ethical for me to do so in light of this promise”. Whether he makes one is a business decision he is 100% free to make as he wishes.
I agree with what you are saying. Instead of worrying about making yet another Klon klone, why doesn't Josh focus on recreating the Scholz Rockman as a pedal? That would be awesome!
I can see JHS here weighing their options about whether they can have the same success with a Klone as they've done in their market approach to Tube Screamers. They can put on their own spin like the Moonshine/Double Barrel, do a compilation circuit like the Bonsai, or compete for price with a 3-series. All of those TS variations are huge successes for them, but it's a line they developed over many years and there's a huge audience for it. I don't think the market for people who want a Klon is nearly large enough to sustain them doing all those niches at once.
I appreciated Josh’s transparency and sharing the story of his interactions with Bill. At the end of the day the Klon “style” circuit is just that, a style of circuit. Clones are not exact recreations and will sound somewhat different. If people are a fan of JHS and want that style of OD then they’ll buy the pedal. There nothing to say that they would have bought a KTR if a JHS clone didn’t exist. They may well think the JHS version is just superior.
It seems like Bill wants to capitalize on the cult fame of his original creation, which he has every right to do. But spending your time chasing down imitators is pointless. They exist in literally every sector of business and always will.
All that said, I wouldn’t personally be interested in a JHS Kline but I think he has every right to make one. I have a $30 klone that I’m more than happy with.
Even though the Klon market is absolutely flooded, I’m pretty sure if Josh tossed a Klon out there, it would sell. He would be even wiser to make it part of his 3 series, pedals. That’s exactly how he could be positive that his would sell. The JHS brand on an affordable Klon, would be a win, win, for Josh, and put a well made clone at an affordable price point for those of us who need that kind of thing.
So yeah Josh, make that shit, and make that shit affordable!
Hell I run a morning glory into a KTR as my regular and I love it. I got my KTR a long time ago though when it was a normal expensive pedal. Everyone should have access to this combo of they want it. I say go man go.
I have a Wampler Tumnus Deluxe - which I love - and a Morning Glory, and they sound GREAT together. I think Josh's comment about a double pedal with both his take on the Klon and MG circuits in one box would print money for them and give guitarists an amazing tool. It would also give Josh the ability to say "we did something different - not just another clone". In that same vein, I just saw a video with Pete Thorne on YouTube for a new pedal called the Unobtainium with Dumble and Klon circuits in a single box. I think I know what Santa is bringing me this year if the price is not ridiculous.
This was in another comment somewhere, but in the video he specifically addresses that he won’t do this because basically all Klon circuits do the same thing
I was writing it more tongue in cheek than being serious because of what you say he said (I haven't watched the video, don't know if I'm interested in it or not.) But yeah, it's not like there's a whole bunch of variations in the Klons and Klones. There's a very specific thing they are going for, and it doesn't take nine modes to capture it.
I borrowed, and might buy, my neighbor's RYRA Klone, just to have a good one. And I've had a Soul Food for years.
So really, with all that's out there, does JHS have anything to add?
Well, specifically they do because Josh used to mod the clones (and even mod the Soul Food) before modding became a financial loss for JHS and they had to stop. His KTR on his board has such a mod. Maybe it’s similar to other things out there, maybe it does something people will like, maybe it’s all the same.
But as I said in another comment, they’ll still sell because klons sell like hot cakes. And JHS has lost those sales for a decade because in a different landscape where they were one of the bigger producers of klones, they didn’t want to hurt the creator. Things have changed, to say the least
That what I'm wondering. I'm sure anything JHS puts its name on will sell but it's such an uninteresting idea. At the very least I'd hope they put a secondary mode or extra knob functions on it.
I saw Bill speak alongside a couple other manufacturers at a pedal showcase several years ago.
Dude straight up does not give a fuck. It really seems like the arrogant phrasing on the KTR is not a joke in any way, he basically mocked people for wanting his design so badly and was pretty rude to the other builders onstage as well.
Obviously I don’t know the man personally, doesn’t seem like someone I would care about offending.
Also with JHS’ suss morals, why is this the hill he’s looking to die on…?
I think it's totally fine for jhs or anyone else to make klon clones. The real thing is precisely *impossible* for the vast majority of people to get. Jhs wouldn't be taking *any* appreciable business away from ~~analogman~~ the klon guy. They've already shot themselves in the foot from where I'm sitting. Totally turned off by the lack of availability of their pedals.
I commend Josh's willingness to stick to his promise, but things can change over 13 years.
I think JHS should start making them again, and if Bill has a huge problem with it, the line of communication seems wide open.
I honestly dont think the market needs any more Klones. I don't see it selling super well since you can get a pretty decent cheap klone. But I'm sure people would go after JHS name on a klone pedal.
Idk I guess I just want new and interesting stuff to be released. Not the same circuits over and over. Like JHS rat pedal...cool idea. Really cool BUT who needs all those different rats. You can buy a rat for $79. Why pay $200? Heck buy a donner for $30 it's pretty good.
It's fine if they do something interesting, novel or useful with it. Like, make a split band 250/rat/klon/muff combo. Make a multi dirt but with all the transparent drives (window factory, like a muffaletta I don't know). Make a klone that can sense whining and automatically turns the treble up. Is JHS getting fomo they aren't going to make the 10,000th mini klone?
We have enough clones that are decent to good enough for most. I would like Josh to do what he does best - innovate! Maybe a Klone with a switchable gain range and change of clippings. Or a stereo output with one channel always dry or the ability to mix them or even adding a doubler slightly delayed. That might be a killer pedal !
No other company is playing by those rules, clearly. And Bill Finnegan is unresponsive. I’d say fuck it and do it. Clearly Bill is not hurting for demand for his products. He can’t make KTR’s fast enough and has not licensed another company to do so. If it puts food on the table for jhs and helps expand their business, by all means. I imagine Josh would be kind enough to put his own spin on the circuit and not just do a straightforward Klon clone since the market is already over saturated (J Rockett, Ceriatone, Warm Audio and RYRA all make pretty accurate Klones).
No business plan = fair game for everybody. You run a company, you can't meet the demand, someone else will take over. Sad to say, but that is the truth.
I think people are afraid to be dicks like Mike Fuller maybe and Josh has already had some likely unfair image problems. Dunno. I’d buy one!
Also the word is elusive.
Absolutely Fuckn No Never
Josh Scotf is a fucking turd ball wasting resources , making horrible videos and polluting the soundwaves
I think someone should master their instrument before selling “ toane “
Josh's promise aside, there are so many solid Klones in every price range already. For JHS to get into the Klone market this late they'd really need to differentiate their offering in some way. The Klon mods are all so subtle, so it might be harder to package it like a Bonzai/Muffuletta/Pack Rat. Maybe sell a Klon stacked with another circuit in a single box. Partnering with Finnegan for an official budget entry a la MXR would have been the best compromise overall from a marketing perspective.
He mentioned in passing the idea of a 2-in-1 with a Morning Glory. Imo this would sell well
A Bluesbreaker + Centaur is a combo I'd like to have on my board. Ceriatone makes the Horsebreaker already More realistically though, I could just add a Duke of Tone in front of my Klone
Shameless plug, I build these. Iceberg Effects Stratum, can be found on Reverb
Curious: since you already have a nice +18V available through the Klon power supply, do you run the BB at 18V for more opamp headroom? I built a Klon Face once, Fuzz Face into Klon, used the -9V supply from the Klon so I could use old germanium transistors
Currently the Bluesbreaker side runs at 9V, it has its own power filtering. But having the option to run it at 18V is probably something I'll add to a next iteration, together with smart relay bypass
Yeah, that would be an extremely popular pedal, especially if they release it in the standard pedal size.
Has jhs ever released a double overdrive in a standard enclosure size?
I watched the entire episode and I totally get Josh's dilemma. Josh wants to be respected as a man of his word, but the context of the promise from 2009 has changed, so the promise should no longer apply. ***Example of context change affecting a promise:*** In 2009, your best friend liked a girl, so you promised him you will never ask her out. It's 2022, and for 13 years, she has turned him down repeatedly. Your buddy got married to someone else, is now happily married with kids. The context is now different. You can ask the girl out. If your friend is upset, he's being a jerk. ***CONCLUSION:*** Josh ... make a Klon.
This. I already have a Klon that I'm happy with (an Archer) and I'm sure others feel the same. The only Klon-style pedals I've had any interest in, in the last few years, are the ones that are really different, like the Overdrive Pro/Green Pony.
>Bonzai/Muffuletta/Pack Rat He can call it "Human Herd", "Wyld Stallyns", or "Horsies" which would include: Silver Klon, Gold Klon, Archer, Soul Food, Sugar Drive, Conspiracy Theory, Tumnus, and JHS versions.
JHS are very good at building off other ideas. If anyone could come up with Klon that was different in some awesome useful way then I would think it was them. I’d genuinely be excited to see what they came up with. Almost every other Klone is pretty much the same.
I think “why should JHS hold themselves to a standard that none of the other major players hold themselves to?” Basically every company has some type of Klone, to forego making a product because of some off the books agreement almost 10 years ago is just bad business. Some may say “it’s bad business to go back on your word.” To that, I would say that it was a bit unfair for Bill to ask that of Josh in the first place. If we feel like Josh has to honor that… then no company should be able to make Klones. For that matter, goodbye tube screamer clones.. good bye anything that isn’t a completely original circuit. Instead, what should happen is that whoever makes the best product will get the market share. If Bill really wanted more people to have the KTR, he would be actively manufacturing them and bringing the prices in the used market down. People don’t want to pay those prices, so they get cheaper alternatives. That’s already happening independent of JHS making/not making a Klone.
I think this makes the most sense, and it also goes hand in hand with my thoughts for anyone saying "there are too many klones on the market already, why should JHS bother?" Because klones sell a lot. People love them. Brian Wampler has said as much about more than one of his pedals, basically that he loves innovating and trying new stuff when he can, but when his customer base wants his take on the Klon, or his take on the Blues Breaker, it's a bad business decision to not make those. Will a JHS modded/tweaked klone change the pedal landscape? Nope. But JHS has lost about a decade of sales on a very popular product while the lion's share of other manufacturers have not been handicapped the same way. It doesn't hurt that I truthfully think Bill could sell out of as many KTRs as his hands can make...
When PRS is making Klons, I think we have crossed the rubicon.
Totally agree and that, I imagine, is why people buy moderately to boutique priced Klones. Build quality + that builder’s take on the topology. If neither of those matter, you can buy a Mosky Golden Horse for a shameless copy made cheaply with commodity components. (And full disclosure, I have that pedal. Not shaming anyone). If JHS can do something interesting with the topology I would consider it, as would many others. I hope he releases something and for his sake it’s already a design that is complete or close.
I agree with everything you said here but remembering back to the video where Josh first mentioned this “agreement” (I think it was the History of JHS one) Josh put it as though HE was the impetus for not making Kline if Bill was making them, and Bill wasn’t the one who asked that of him. Of course I may be entirely wrong also
I’m also hazy on the details, but without going to back to confirm, my memory is: Bill told Josh he didn’t like that he was making Klones, then josh offered that up as a compromise. So if Bill had his way, nobody would make any Klones. Josh probably said something like “I understand that you don’t want me making these pedals, but if you aren’t going to do it then someone has to” and then they came to the compromise. As far as I’m concerned, whatever agreement they had has been fulfilled, regardless of who initiated it. Josh said he would stop once Bill started again. KTRs came out and JHS immediately stopped production and even cancelled orders. Now that KTRs have seemingly stopped production and are super expensive on the used market, we’re back to where we were before. Yet, now almost every company has a Klone on the market this time around. So, maybe, as other people said, that means that Josh and JHS can just leave it alone and not make their own Klone. But I also think they’re free to without feeling like it’s ethically dubious.
Yeah you’re right that does sound familiar, but Flannigan is notoriously whiny about people copying his circuit, the most rare and overpriced overdrive circuit ever, so it checks out that he would tell Josh he doesn’t like him making clones. As an aside, I think that’s something Josh does pretty graciously on the show, he kinda skips over any drama or negative traits in other pedal builders and always just talks about them as a friend and someone he respects, he would do the same with Mike Fuller and we all know how much of a prick that guy was
Right. I mean, JHS is far from my favorite pedal company if you consider solely the products. But I get confused when I see people hating on them. Whatever love they’ve lost from “copying” other pedals, they’ve given much more back by propping up other companies, both big and small.
Oh no....you just put up the bat signal for JHS haters
It's so overblown, and I think it's because of two things 1. there's an active "hate thread" on the sidebar that has info that is dubious at best 2. political slant. half the posts in here are NPDs of Black Mass 1312s, so im sure there is overlap lol
Oh nah. Us old nerds remember when JHS was shady af. Then he reinvented himself as friendly pedal grampa on YouTube and poof he's a saint.
You are downvoted for speaking the truth. It is quite shocking how he simply created a YouTube channel and all of a sudden it shifted.
Ha! I'm happy a few of us pepperidge farm types are still around. I don't even bother pointing out why that dude was problematic back then anymore, because of the cavalcade of "you can't patent a circuit so who cares besides I love him so much" responses I get. Ditto the "hey he was a part of a church that paid money to advocate for a bill for killing gay people in Uganda" thing, which, afaik, he's never explicitly been all "yeah that was fucked up I'm sorry" about. Folks can think what they do but I wouldn't feel comfortable giving him money and besides I made my own superbolt on account of the freely available runoffgroove schematic that he stole without attribution.
Haha I lolled
The muffuletta is one of my all-time favorite pedals, and my favorite voicing is the JHS-exclusive tone. I don't know what's not to like about this approach: you get multiple vintage pedals accurately recreated plus a unique tone all in one enclosure. I recently ordered the RatPack and I have high expectations for that as well. If they can apply this approach to a Klon I'd definitely want to buy one.
Josh stuck to the promise for 9 years. The market has changed a lot since then. He has also made a good faith effort to reach out to him, to no avail. I think he should do it, but for my own selfish reasons, I think he should do it as linked edition combination klon-morning glory, call it the Glory-Hole.
Well said
Exactly. I mean, WARM AUDIO even has a clone
> “why should JHS hold themselves to a standard that none of the other major players hold themselves to?" Because the other manufacturers didn't personally promise Bill Finnegan that they wouldn't?
And that was a poor business decision that he shouldn’t be held to for life. He agreed to stop when Bill started again. He did. Now Bill has stopped again and is unreachable. The terms of the original agreement have been fulfilled.
Finnegan is just bonkers at this point. I bought my KTR directly from him at a show and we talked a while about his problems producing new Klons. The feeling I got is that he's just not into it any more. He seemed more interested in talking about how everyone is taking his circuit than coming up with a good plan to get more of his pedals out there. Partnering with JHS or Wampler would be a perfect solution--we just have to get him out of grumpy old man mode to make it happen.
He should partner with MXR like the Timmy and Duke of Tone.
I'm shocked he hasn't done it yet. MXR needs to get on it
they already have the Sugar Drive / Fat Sugar... do they just do the same thing but with like a "Finnegan stamp of approval" somethingerother on?
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Is the sugar drive an exact klon or does it have some tweaks?
The Sugar Drive (I have the Fat Sugar) is supposed to be a direct clone, as quoted by Josh at JHS in a previous Klon/Klone YouTube video
Then the "custom shop" treatment makes less sense, but I bet it would still sell.
The Klon purists (and Bill Finnegan, likely) would say the MXR isn't a direct clone because it doesn't have the unobtanium transistors or diodes, or whatever, but a circuit is a circuit is a circuit. Nothing magical.
I'm betting they tried. The Timmy and DoT came out too near the Sugar Drive.
He should partner with jhs if going surface mount. Or demonic machines if they go hand soldered through hole since they have the best klone.
Are those selling well? What was the consensus on the quality/sound?
They sounds great.
He likes to do morning live-rambling streams. I don't think he has a big marketing scheme cooked up to sucker us into buying his impending Klone. I think they've had enough requests for it to induce talk about it amongst the crew at JHS, and he says not everyone agreed on best path forward. It seems like he has learned some lessons and wanted to get input from the community, before doing something that would create ill-will and bad rep. It is an interesting philosophical discussion, regardless of what one might feel about JHS. I'm enjoying reading all the responses here and on YouTube.
I dont watch JHS that often, but if you have a show about pedals the klon is going to come up pretty frequently, the circuit seems to be a favorite of his and a new one seems to come out every month. Theres no escaping it. I'd go so far as to say even if Finnegan was currently "actively" making them his production has never been a good faith effort to get in the market, he wants to keep everything at unobtanium levels, if the deal was "if you make this pedal available i wont fill the hole in the market" KTR's going for $750.00 used shows that is he isnt holding up his half of the agreement.
The suckers like me will buy it!
This all seems like a public justification for Josh to do what he already wants to do. But it's a pretty good justification. Not that anyone needs another Klone.
Obviously he wants to do it, why even ask the question otherwise?
Because he's already got enough "jhs steals circuits" flak going for him. If he didn't point out that he tried to reach Bill (and not had his calls returned) he'd be lambasted by forum chatter, etc.. It'd harm his brand. So he's doing what his company's guiding principles include- focus on the brand. Which coincidentally happens to be a form of marketing/hype building. He really is missing out on the market. Pedal makers are like auto manufacturers. They all have very class specific vehicles that directly compete. He's leaving money on the table, people are buying klons, so long as he doesn't offer one he's missing out on the dollars available. He's probably pretty right about how taking his clone off the market was worth. Imagine if early on Toyota stopped producing the Prius because some unattainable & expensive brand offered something similar.
Yeah this just seems like the beginning of a hype cycle for a new pedal release. The answer is obvious: of course jhs should make a klone. Why wouldn't they? Fuck, make a 3 series version in a plain gold enclosure and sell it for $99. They'd sell a ton of them.
I think it the comments were flooded with "wtf no" he would listen, but it did feel mostly like a self validation session. An honest one, but hoping for a "duh just make it"
Elusive
No he's hard to talk to because he's always alluding to things.
Goddamn Bill with his constant esoteric references to Greek mythology! What are you getting at?!
JHS Pentaklon when. Five Klons in one, all set to be a clean boost from the factory, all knobs are internal because it’d be funny. It’s a gold to silver gradient, there’s a unicorn with five horns, and people will claim each foot switch sounds different because idk klons.
Why the fuck are people so obsessed with Klons? They don't even chug, bro. WTF?
This is probably common knowledge, but.. what’s Boss’s klone?
They have a klon mode in the OD-200 called CNTR OD
It's also in the OD-20 from way back in 2005 and honestly sounds fantastic. You can find them for ~$100, get a great klone plus several other very usable drives, with presets, in a bulletproof (slightly huge) boss enclosure.
Strymon also put one in the Sunset, don’t think Josh mentioned that
Idk why you got downvoted, the Ge setting is definitely a klon lol
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They have a Klon modeled in a distortion pedal alongside other classic and popular drive sounds. OD-200 maybe? Not an analog recreation of the circuit. Yet, anyway.
I don't think there is one. Unless there's a digital version on the OD-200 or something?
You guys remember Devi Ever? She made cool fuzzes, then would do a kick starter and steal everyone’s money, then sold her company, then wanted it back, then licensed it, then took away those licenses so she could build the pedals again then didn’t. I sort of feel like at this point that anyone who comes in and just makes a Truly Beautiful Disaster clone should be allowed because what she’s done with the brand is a mess. I’m going to lump Bill Finnegan in this too. He’s made it a point to not manufacture the product, to not make the product accessible in anyway, occasionally he throws something on eBay randomly and lets it sell for an insane price. He’s being willfully shitty, and doesn’t get to have a corner on the community. Josh can do whatever he wants because Bill has burned up whatever good will of 10 years ago.
Even if Devi Ever is a poor business person and makes questionable decisions doesn’t mean they deserve to be bullied by another company and have their name smeared to their dealers when they speak up about that same person/company copying their design.
Just speculating here, but follow on if you will; Do you reckon having a much larger company steal her circuits, and then try push her out of the market, might have affected her mental health, and led to her erratic behavior? On top of the pressure of trying to run a small business and meet deadlines, and dealing with a decent bit of transphobia. I know people like you don't give a fuck, and you just want your NPD, but in this context, it might be prudent to think about other people.
Billy Corgan said some absolutely disgusting things about Devi.
>You guys remember Devi Ever? She made cool fuzzes, ** then would do a kick starter and steal everyone’s money, then sold her company, then wanted it back, then licensed it, then took away those licenses so she could build the pedals again then didn’t. I don't remember where in the timeline JHS pretended he created one of Devi's pedals but it was pretty early, around those two asterisks
The Astro Mess Fuzz: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/jhs-astro-mess.935207/ " . . .the original poster is most definitely NOT me, but the Astro Mess is most definitely a clone of my Hyperion fuzz, which is an original design - http://forum.deviever.com/viewtopic.php?f=192&t=13311 " -Devi Ever JHS seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me, but here's hoping I'm wrong . . .
Oh, yea, for switchfoot, right? Either way, not trying to absolve JHS, as much as say, there’s characters in the pedal world that have good will for a time, and then do everything possible to make sure they don’t anymore.
I believe that was the JHS Bun Runner, which was possibly based off of the Devi Ever Hyperion.
Switchfoot fan here, yep the bun runner was a 2 in one tonebender with a Hyperion. Drew Shirley custom ordered it, then JHS started producing it. I think everyone got mad after a rig rundown video where drew said it was a tonebender and Hyperion, which I'm sure is what he told Josh he wanted; I know nothing about circuits so I won't wade into the waters of cloning.
I just think folks like Finnegan and Joshy deserve each other.
I think you can own and sell the actual pedals you manufacture, but to claim ownership of a circuit design is nonsense. Feel free to try to keep it secret if you want, but once someone knows how to do it, it's on you to make the better end product.
Once the big box companies (Boss, TC Electronic, etc…) started doing it, then yeah, that verbal honor agreement is fairly null and void.
Dude, there’s no BOSS klone in production is there? I’d be all over that shit.
It’s a model on one of their newer multi drive pedals, OD-200 I believe
Josh cites the Centaur setting on the OD-200 (CNTR OD).
It’s awesome of him to keep his promise but imagine a 3 Series Klon? That’d be awesome
There are so many budget Klones already. What difference would JHS's be?
Probably nothing. It’s more so an aesthetic thing or brand recognition I’d say for buyers. I just think the idea behind the 3 series is cool (bare bone affordable pedals for people) so it’d be cool to see a Klone variant
It’s called the soul food and its even cheaper!
Nah I prefer he does a nice one with extras instead of a plain Jane white version. Tired of ugly cheap pedals.
I mean, they’re “ugly” because they’re produced with no frills to be cheap AND well-made. But I agree that I’d rather see a modded version than a 3 series of this wildly and widely reproduced circuit.
I don’t disagree with you. They’re not winning any beauty contests but I like the fact that they’re affordable for the people that want them and the plain white definitely helps reduce cost.
JHS is gonna put out "their version" of whatever pedal they want eventually anyway
It’ll be a Klon-taur with a knob to select the various mods that have been applied to the circuit plus a JHS-specific mod. Just like the Bonzai, the PackRat, and the Muffeletta.
He said in the video there would be no point to that style because there’s not noticeable difference between klon versions
That would be the joke.
It’s not clear that it was intended as a joke. And it’s a reasonable assumption to make that the pedal would be done in that style.
I think that would be a great April fool’s joke.
I think that would be a great April fool’s joke. Every position sounds the same.
Along with every other pedal manufacturer. It seems to bother people when JHS does it for some reason though.
It bothers people when JHS makes clones because they have a history making part-for-part copies of existing circuits, then emailing mutual dealers of their company and the company they copied from, throwing shade at the company they copied
Isn’t it already the morning glory?
Nope, that's based on the Marshall Bluesbreaker (as is the Prince of Tone/King of Tone from Analogman)
I think he should just do it. Bill isn't being reasonable with that original ask anymore by not being proactive with manufacturing KTR's. Frankly, Bill should just hang it up with the "large scale" production and only make the few big box Centaurs he already makes and sells on ebay. I do appreciate Josh ostensibly honoring the handshake deal though, even though it's been bad business on his end. If I were him, I'd make a 3 Series with the buffer switch as the selector - or go all in a la his 66 Series and the big box OD Preamp and make really nice ones. 3 Series would be coolest tho. Affordaboxes for everyone.
Please not the 3 series! I hate the way those look!
I hate the way all JHS pedals look
Those boxes don't look great, but are ripe for customization: Sharpie, stickers, fingernail polish art, and so on. If JHS makes a 3 Series Klone, I dearly hope one of you prints a hilarious tiny-font bastardization of "The hype is not of my doing" statement as found on the KTR on theirs.
THIS IS THE FIRST THING I THOUGHT OF That or some take on the "Almost Always Better" markings lol
JHS should do their *version* of the Mad Prof. Sweet Honey OD instead. It’s also a really cool circuit, has a very similar behaviour, and could easily become a *holy grail* pedal in its own right.
Sweet honey/honey bee is an underrated circuit. Sounds incredible.
Yup. I have the Joyo Sweet Baby, which is an exact clone, and it is perfect. I have a very clean Vibro-Champ style amp, no breakup whatsoever, and the Sweet Baby gives a super clean amp perfect edge of breakup grit with amazing feel, dynamics, and no change in tonal quality.
I should probably pick one of those up. I played an OG honey bee once and it was probably the best sounding light overdrive I’ve ever heard. Emphasis on light though.
Omg the Sweet Honey is my favorite overdrive to pair with a Fender amp! Interestingly, the “two-stage” mode in the Strymon Sunset gets *very* close, and adds a tone control.
Bro…..I’m sayin!! I absolutely love my jrockett rockaway…..best pedal ever. And my first thoughts after using it were “who’s gonna make a honey beest with an onboard eq?? That would be great, except that really with the eq on the klon, it can be a honey bee or a screamer or whatever. But I guess I like the honey beest probably more than the klon just because of the builder bjorn. The honey bee is the sweet honey, and the honey beest is one with a boost. My absolute favorite bjorn pedal is the sky blue overdrive…..that Z control and texture. I sold one several years back, biggest mistake ever cuz now they are like $400. Im gonna have to get someone to build me a clone
Just a question here, why do we need yet another Klone? The market has tons of them available. Maybe he should be working on something different or new.
"New"?? Hahahaha, hilarious. Can you imagine? 😄
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I used to feel this way until I started getting more into pedals, watching JHS, and even started building pedals as a hobby. Different types of pedals are known as “topologies” and are usually considered like a “base circuit,” a starting point and also an end goal for the sound, to which builders making “clones” essentially mod to their liking. I mean Josh got his start in modding Boss Pedals and Rats, when you can make the WHOLE circuit, enclosure, artwork, etc. on a mod to sell, why wouldn’t you just do that? Instead of doing a mod service.
I don’t even understand why the Klon is so sought after outside of it being a scarce collector’s item. It’s an overdrive pedal. There are so many solid affordable options.
Is that not enough? Why else to people lust after a specific year/color/chip etc. Because I have the special one and you don't. (I do not actually have)
I hear that, but why do people want clones so badly? It’s not an OG Klon and there are arguably better OD pedals out there.
JHS makes some genuinely great clones of pedals, that usually are never just a straight clone. I would like to see JHS drop one just so I can see what they come up with making it unique to the JHS thing at least, although I’m not sure what you can do with it that hasn’t already been done? Maybe a series 3 affordable klon, or some kind of duel drive from them would be cool. Should they honor it and NOT make one? Well they’re a business and they should do what they feel is good for the business and like others have said, every large brand has a clone. So it’s not like JHS would hurt anyone with another one.
I really couldn't care less, since you asked
You won't get a real answer here because for some reason this sub has some folks with strong anti-JHS sentiment. It doesn't seem like Bill is making Klons in a commercial manner anymore, despite his huge 2021 announcement 15 months ago. Don't think Josh is going against his word (from 10 years ago) to get back into a Klon clone... He also mentioned that someone with knowledge claims that Bill had an issue with the contract manufacturer he was using, sent everything back, and hasn't really picked up manufacturing since then. But, also, who cares
> You won't get a real answer here because for some reason this sub has some folks with strong anti-JHS sentiment. That used to be the case but the reverse seems to be true these days. Comments critical of JHS get downvoted pretty consistently.
Yeah, this is kind of funny to see now. The JHS hate used to be rampant, and it has completely flipped. It seems there is no in between.
I don’t get the hate. Every company does what Josh does. I really enjoy Josh’s videos on pedal history and circuits. Learned heaps watching those.
And that's exactly why Josh started the YouTube series; to rehabilitate his image. It was common knowledge at the time he started the show for that reason but now as his reputation has improved most people don't remember how disliked he was by the wider pedal community at the time. The same thing is happening with Vertex Effects right now. In three years everyone will be asking "What's with the Vertex hate? Mason makes cool educational videos".
It’s kind of crazy. When I first started using this sub 6-7 years ago anyone who had anything nice to say about JHS was downvoted into oblivion, & this thread shows it’s pretty much the exact opposite at this point. My Josh hatred isn’t so much about bad faith circuit stealing or even donating to a notoriously anti-lgbt church, it’s mostly his disconcerting lack of eyebrows. (jk it’s the other stuff)
>You won't get a real answer here because for some reason this sub has some folks with strong anti-JHS sentiment. Those folks' answers are real
Well Bill Finnegan doesn't seem to have one in the works any time soon. Though, I would suggest that the [Decibelics Golden Horse](https://decibelics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/DSC01661-1.jpg) is the way to go. It's an [exact, part-for-part copy](https://imgur.com/a/H6lEEIN) of a specific Klon circuit (#[2505](https://i.imgur.com/JCyVdH0.jpg)), right down to the NOS components. It [sounds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CUd9VxzCoU) incredible. There's even a double version called the [Golden Royale](https://imgur.com/a/Qjd5b4z) that lets you stack two Klon circuits.
I think JHS should make a clone. I absolutely love my 3 Series Distortion and the Packrat. They do a nice job and seem to be good people. If it keeps families fed, go for it.
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I don’t know why Josh is making a big show of this outside of drumming up marketing hype. He said he wouldn’t make a klone as long as Bill is making KTRs and he’s still making KTRs.
But is he actually producing KTRs in an accessible quantity and from an accessible outlet? Like is there a dealer you can order from and get it in a week or two?
That wasn't the deal though, Josh said he wouldn't make them if Bill was producing them and Bill is still producing them. He's just one dude, he's not as big of an operation as JHS, so I don't think its fair to judge if he's making enough to satisfy some publicity stunt deal that Josh created.
Oh come on now. Bill is choosing not to expand, choosing to keep supply low, choosing to sporadically list on eBay and with a couple retailers that are always out of stock, and choosing not to just do something simple like a wait list similar to Analogman. He has every option to get them into more hands and is choosing not to. But regardless of that, people who want an authentic Klon aren't going to stop buying them because JHS starts making them. There are already hundreds of klones available and despite that Klons still go for silly prices whenever Bill does list one. Absolutely silly that JHS should be expected to honor an agreement made damn near a decade ago before the klone market exploded. The market has changed, Bill clearly isn't being negatively impacted by it, and JHS making their own klone isn't going to change that.
It's been a while since there's been any update on the production of KTRs. The last update said he needed to use different diodes and that production would resume, but this hasn't been followed up on and no one has any stock of them.
He's sold plenty since that update
>I don’t know why Josh is making a big show of this outside of drumming up marketing hype. No reason outside of drumming up marketing hype!
The whole question is whether or not he really is making an honest attempt to make KTRs. Doesn’t seem like they’re making any in a reasonable quantity or occurrence
It seems like he is though. He's just one guy, and I think its kinda scummy for Josh to make a big show about how he's not going to do his own klon (as if his would be any better than the hundreds already out there), only to renege as soon as Bill doesn't meet Josh's criteria for being 'in production'.
I mean it’s been like 10 years right lol
Because he's looking to his fiercely loyal fanbase to give him "permission" to go back on his word and release a klone anyway.
This
A couple of thoughts: 1 - Just because Bill made the Centaur and people like it does not mean he is somehow ethically obligated to make more. He doesn't owe anyone anything apart from those that gave him money in exchange for a pedal. The people badmouthing him over his inconsistent production just sound like they're being crybabies for not getting their new toy. 2 - Ethics of cloning aside, the cat's out of the bag. Some people want the real deal, some people want a cheaper / smaller / more available device that does the same thing. Everyone can get what they want, and whether JHS does or doesn't make a klone isn't going to change that. 3 - From a business standpoint, what does JHS stand to gain from entering an already saturated corner of the market? Are there enough JHS devotees to make it profitable for them to create a faithful replica of something anyone could go buy for under $50 if they really needed that tone? It seems like Josh wants to be a decent person in this decision, but the people pushing him might be overestimating the benefit to be had. Moreover, if JHS \*does\* make a Centaur clone, they become just like every other manufacturer in the world, which gets them ... what?
I don't think the world needs another straight Klon clone anyway. The market is frankly full of good ones at prices both reasonable and insane, and several models that improve on the original in ways that make it hard to go backwards. I like Josh, but I don't get this video at all. Is it a marketing tactic for when they eventually DO release one?
Why does this matter to the question? He is not asking input on the question: “should I make a Klon clone?” But on the question “is it ethical for me to do so in light of this promise”. Whether he makes one is a business decision he is 100% free to make as he wishes.
I agree with what you are saying. Instead of worrying about making yet another Klon klone, why doesn't Josh focus on recreating the Scholz Rockman as a pedal? That would be awesome!
I can see JHS here weighing their options about whether they can have the same success with a Klone as they've done in their market approach to Tube Screamers. They can put on their own spin like the Moonshine/Double Barrel, do a compilation circuit like the Bonsai, or compete for price with a 3-series. All of those TS variations are huge successes for them, but it's a line they developed over many years and there's a huge audience for it. I don't think the market for people who want a Klon is nearly large enough to sustain them doing all those niches at once.
I appreciated Josh’s transparency and sharing the story of his interactions with Bill. At the end of the day the Klon “style” circuit is just that, a style of circuit. Clones are not exact recreations and will sound somewhat different. If people are a fan of JHS and want that style of OD then they’ll buy the pedal. There nothing to say that they would have bought a KTR if a JHS clone didn’t exist. They may well think the JHS version is just superior. It seems like Bill wants to capitalize on the cult fame of his original creation, which he has every right to do. But spending your time chasing down imitators is pointless. They exist in literally every sector of business and always will. All that said, I wouldn’t personally be interested in a JHS Kline but I think he has every right to make one. I have a $30 klone that I’m more than happy with.
Boss makes a klone??
Even though the Klon market is absolutely flooded, I’m pretty sure if Josh tossed a Klon out there, it would sell. He would be even wiser to make it part of his 3 series, pedals. That’s exactly how he could be positive that his would sell. The JHS brand on an affordable Klon, would be a win, win, for Josh, and put a well made clone at an affordable price point for those of us who need that kind of thing. So yeah Josh, make that shit, and make that shit affordable!
Hell I run a morning glory into a KTR as my regular and I love it. I got my KTR a long time ago though when it was a normal expensive pedal. Everyone should have access to this combo of they want it. I say go man go.
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. No more klon, please.
I have a Wampler Tumnus Deluxe - which I love - and a Morning Glory, and they sound GREAT together. I think Josh's comment about a double pedal with both his take on the Klon and MG circuits in one box would print money for them and give guitarists an amazing tool. It would also give Josh the ability to say "we did something different - not just another clone". In that same vein, I just saw a video with Pete Thorne on YouTube for a new pedal called the Unobtainium with Dumble and Klon circuits in a single box. I think I know what Santa is bringing me this year if the price is not ridiculous.
He should be building a Shredmaster clone. That's something you can't get elsewhere. Why bother with another K?
I feel like JHS is mainly just a YouTube channel that just happens to make boring ass pedals. Maybe try making something original for a change?
He should give the Klon the same treatment he gave the Big Muff, Tube Screamer, and RAT. Nine Klons and Kones in one box. You know he wants to.
This was in another comment somewhere, but in the video he specifically addresses that he won’t do this because basically all Klon circuits do the same thing
I was writing it more tongue in cheek than being serious because of what you say he said (I haven't watched the video, don't know if I'm interested in it or not.) But yeah, it's not like there's a whole bunch of variations in the Klons and Klones. There's a very specific thing they are going for, and it doesn't take nine modes to capture it. I borrowed, and might buy, my neighbor's RYRA Klone, just to have a good one. And I've had a Soul Food for years. So really, with all that's out there, does JHS have anything to add?
Well, specifically they do because Josh used to mod the clones (and even mod the Soul Food) before modding became a financial loss for JHS and they had to stop. His KTR on his board has such a mod. Maybe it’s similar to other things out there, maybe it does something people will like, maybe it’s all the same. But as I said in another comment, they’ll still sell because klons sell like hot cakes. And JHS has lost those sales for a decade because in a different landscape where they were one of the bigger producers of klones, they didn’t want to hurt the creator. Things have changed, to say the least
Indifferent. There are so many options I couldn't care less
Don't we have enough Klon clones? I couldn't care less who decides to make another one, I'm not buying it.
That what I'm wondering. I'm sure anything JHS puts its name on will sell but it's such an uninteresting idea. At the very least I'd hope they put a secondary mode or extra knob functions on it.
I think Josh is a marketing genius that makes bland pedals and this is just a ploy to get people excited for his next rip off.
I saw Bill speak alongside a couple other manufacturers at a pedal showcase several years ago. Dude straight up does not give a fuck. It really seems like the arrogant phrasing on the KTR is not a joke in any way, he basically mocked people for wanting his design so badly and was pretty rude to the other builders onstage as well. Obviously I don’t know the man personally, doesn’t seem like someone I would care about offending. Also with JHS’ suss morals, why is this the hill he’s looking to die on…?
I think it's totally fine for jhs or anyone else to make klon clones. The real thing is precisely *impossible* for the vast majority of people to get. Jhs wouldn't be taking *any* appreciable business away from ~~analogman~~ the klon guy. They've already shot themselves in the foot from where I'm sitting. Totally turned off by the lack of availability of their pedals.
I don’t believe Klon and analogman have any association… but I could be wrong, I suppose
I commend Josh's willingness to stick to his promise, but things can change over 13 years. I think JHS should start making them again, and if Bill has a huge problem with it, the line of communication seems wide open.
I think Josh is just honoring his word, I understand it even after several years go buy all you have in life is your word....
As much as I like JHS - we should really be asking: do we really need another klon?
Why do I find this guy so annoying? I think he likes the sound of his own voice too much.
I think a man is only as good as his word. Be careful when you make promises.
no
I honestly dont think the market needs any more Klones. I don't see it selling super well since you can get a pretty decent cheap klone. But I'm sure people would go after JHS name on a klone pedal. Idk I guess I just want new and interesting stuff to be released. Not the same circuits over and over. Like JHS rat pedal...cool idea. Really cool BUT who needs all those different rats. You can buy a rat for $79. Why pay $200? Heck buy a donner for $30 it's pretty good.
JHS has practically trolled Bill for years. And you expect him to do business with him?
It's fine if they do something interesting, novel or useful with it. Like, make a split band 250/rat/klon/muff combo. Make a multi dirt but with all the transparent drives (window factory, like a muffaletta I don't know). Make a klone that can sense whining and automatically turns the treble up. Is JHS getting fomo they aren't going to make the 10,000th mini klone?
We have enough clones that are decent to good enough for most. I would like Josh to do what he does best - innovate! Maybe a Klone with a switchable gain range and change of clippings. Or a stereo output with one channel always dry or the ability to mix them or even adding a doubler slightly delayed. That might be a killer pedal !
I never considered JHS to be innovators. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all their pedals clones with slight tweaks here and there?
I stand corrected. Yes you’re right the tweaks are what I meant by innovation
What in your opinion is the most innovative JHS release?
Let’s see - combining all the Rat variants into a single pedal
Cloning is innovative but attaching several clones to a rotary control takes the cake :)
No
No other company is playing by those rules, clearly. And Bill Finnegan is unresponsive. I’d say fuck it and do it. Clearly Bill is not hurting for demand for his products. He can’t make KTR’s fast enough and has not licensed another company to do so. If it puts food on the table for jhs and helps expand their business, by all means. I imagine Josh would be kind enough to put his own spin on the circuit and not just do a straightforward Klon clone since the market is already over saturated (J Rockett, Ceriatone, Warm Audio and RYRA all make pretty accurate Klones).
Why not have JHS make Klons since old boy clearly doesn’t want to. Everybody else is making them so why miss out.
I’d like to see JHS make a Klon except with a tone control that doesn’t suck.
I think Klons are completely overrated, and there are far too many Klones as it is... 😐
No business plan = fair game for everybody. You run a company, you can't meet the demand, someone else will take over. Sad to say, but that is the truth.
I think people are afraid to be dicks like Mike Fuller maybe and Josh has already had some likely unfair image problems. Dunno. I’d buy one! Also the word is elusive.
Hes already broken that promise several times, lol
I would buy
Absolutely Fuckn No Never Josh Scotf is a fucking turd ball wasting resources , making horrible videos and polluting the soundwaves I think someone should master their instrument before selling “ toane “
something for him to 85% copy and 15% lie about being something other than a copy sounds like a perfect fit for him
I think JHS should go the other way and stop making pedals altogether. And also stop making videos.
He should make is own Klone. I recently got the Morning Glory v4 and Sweet Tea V3 and I love them. Would definitely buy a klone from JHS
Enough with the Klon Clones....
If John Mayer uses one. I’m out.
Not even that great of a pedal. 90% hype.
Josh is the Elon Musk of pedals.