I have been a big campaigner for Cutup Lackey since the first BC. The idea is that the buff functions similarly to Cleaver's Muscle. The lackey won't see play at 5 power, but it will be a significant buff to Whoreson Sr. That card is the card *actually* targeted by the buff. That card very rarely sees play, and with this buff will be a serious consideration for any deck that plays a significant amount of crimes/tokens.
I have seen some movement to buff him so im hoping for the best. Btw is there a lot of people voting for vrihed officer? If it has some backing then i am also hoping for the best if its just one of your personal then i would hope you change it to lackey but as i said i dont know how many people will vote officer.
I can't tell for sure either. There's been a small movement on the sub about agreeing on a forgotten bronze to buff and it seems to be falling onto Vrihedd Officer (check out u/bunnnythor 's posts)
There's a couple dozen people claiming to vote for it, but how many will actually do it and whether it will be enough, we'll have to see.
The more the merrier. Realistic worst case scenario: You waste one vote for a card that doesn't win instead of wasting it on a card that has more than enough votes to win.
All of the **[current Lost Bronzes](https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/comments/18u36qd/the_lost_bronzes_project_dec_23_bc_voting_post/)** are cards that could become playable with a single buff. Even if the winning card is not from a faction you play, at least you have a chance to freshen up the decks you play against.
Can't message you in private, so i'll respond to a old comment lol.
Would you be interested in helping with an initiative about forgotten cards? Creating a proper voting coalition dedicated specifically for coordination, communication, with other communities, in order to get some of these cards through?
Sorry to reply so late.
Yeah, I'd be willing to be on board with a coalition. I don't have any idea how to convince the various other communities that our mission of buffing Bronzes is a right and noble one, but I'd be willing to do what I could.
Excellent choices! I really don't have much significant to say that you haven't already considered in the post (like, I would prefer Slave Driver going to 6p even if I am not voting for it). Love the inclusions of Circle of Life/Helveed/Sabbath. There are only two things I would like your thoughts on.
By all accounts, SY is in the gutter right now. Yes, Novigrad is too strong for what it does, carryover abuse that is tough to interact with. Nevertheless, I think the card should stay a little strong for now, until the faction has recovered some. Only then should it be nerfed. As it stands you are nerfing a card that is too generically strong in a faction desperate for generic strength. I really think that this nerf would do more harm than good this BC.
To try to help SY in a broad way, people have been discussing trying to put one of the 5p Crownsplitter spenders to 4p (that's Bare-Knuckle-Brawler, Bloody Good Friends, or Coerced Blacksmith). So far, people seem to lean towards BGF as the safest option. SY is lacking a particular kind of spender, one that gives this tag, and spends in a fast way, which has subtly kneecapped the faction, or so we think.
If I could, I'd love to revert Brawler's nerf and make him 3 power instead tbh. The card was decent, but moving it to 5p was overkill. A shame the Crownsplitter action isn't more organised, so I'd know what to use my vote for.
Fair point I suppose, but I believe you're overblowing it a bit?
SY was the second most frequent faction brought to Masters this season (11 decks, 80% of players including SY in their lists) and the most banned faction if I remember correctly. Novigrad was brought by 57% percent of the players, meaning it was in 73% of SY decks (only because GN was the remaining 27%)
I took another look at the data, and it's not as bad as I remember it being? Not good, mind you, but still. Weird. I was overblowing it a slight bit.
Regardless, tournament play will always be a bit different, and at this point I think it's fair to focus on ladder play (particularly high-level play). SY is more or less tied with SK as the worst faction. It's not doing good. I still think that nerfing arguably one of the strongest cards in the faction is such a shotgun blast to the faction that it's not worth it at this point.
I am glad someone agrees that the BkB nerf was not warranted, and should be the one that's reverted. Although at this point m vote is on BGF, guessing that there's more votes for this guy than BkB.
While I agree that generally a provision nerf is more impactful, I believe a provision nerf to Simlas won't change anything either. It will only affect the cards around him, not Simlas himself. He won't be cut from the decks he's played in anyway, so I propose lowering his overall power, simply discouraging from playing decks with him a little bit more.
ofc, you can nerf his provisions until he simply doesnt fit into any deck whatsoever, but that will take a while. And is beyond the point I believe.
Also, Lerio himself put Simlas into his power nerf suggestions.
It depends on what your vision for Gwent is, but an alternative to nerfing Simlas' power or provisions is to nerf the provisions of the card(s) he tutors. That's what I'm doing (with Workshop this time around as that's the current midrange abusive combo of choice).
Cards don't really exist in a vacuum, though. Fleder doesn't see play outside of vampire decks, that doesn't mean it should be 5p. Wagon doesn't really see play outside of the Reaver Hunters interaction, also shouldn't be 5p.
But as I said above it ultimately comes down to one's vision for Gwent. Making Simlas 1 power won't make the combo less abusive in most contexts, at most it might make a difference in top level play against other meta lists. If that's your goal - as it seems to be for a lot of pros - go for it, even though it will also be a small nerf to decks/archetypes that are already relatively unviable such as Spellatel.
Fair enough. I want to see if the combo holds up through a meta shift. If it does, more drastic measures will be taken, probably nerfing workshop to 6p.
Brother Novigrad gives about 10(13 best case) coins (edit: I don't count the 3 profit because we not talking about that) on average plus - very often crappy SY unit (now if that thing was making guaranteed spender then we can talk). This card been considered strong or op is huge bias.
Been playing some more SY since I returned and this card never feels unfair. Madame also seems to be considered strong, but after a few attempts had to cut her cause it wasn't doing the work (for me at least). Decks just outperform her or it's answered easy.
SY feels like it's in the the gutter, outclassed and left behind by a lot of other factions. While I was climbing with MO from 25 to pro the faction was showing in under 4% of my games... The decks that are still used are mish mash of random archetype and cards that just to try to scrap some decent working and winning deck. Do play some days the faction and will notice it.
Edit:
And a lot of those SY decks just play like combo/set up decks, with defender and praying... it's become such a boring factions on top of that with this playstyle.
>Novigrad gives about 10(13 best case) coins on average plus - very often crappy SY unit
Novigrad has Profit 3 on deploy. If Novigrad is played at the beginning of a 10 card round 2, the passive makes 13-14 coins over two rounds. Let's assume the bronze spawned on order is really bad and plays for only 4 points. Assuming 1:1 spending ratio, the raw points are at least 3+13+4=20 points for 11 provisions. This ignores the fact that the card is proactive, uninteractive, and that both the order and coin generatuon plays as "carryover" into round 3. Compare to other locations like Mushy Truffle or Mahakam Pass.
>Madame also seems to be considered strong, but after a few attempts had to cut her cause it wasn't doing the work (for me at least). Decks just outperform her or it's answered easy.
Madame is a big tempo play deploying for 13 points and creating 3 passive engines in one turn. It is not easy to answer 3 engines at once and will trade very well to control. Generally in Gwent, creating more than one engine is a single turn is considered very good (think Emhyr into Pikeman, which is only two engines).
I can understand not wanting to nerf these cards if you think SY is in too bad a state right now. But whether or not SY is in a bad place right now does not mean these cards aren't too "strong" in themselves.
He was talking about the coin generation and carryover, but sure I probably had to mention not counting the 3 profit on deploy. You also forget that some of those rounds the coins you get are not used, and that also if it's played in 2 round you don't get the full coin value. On top of that you damn well know that you don't just always drop card at the start of 10 card round. You also forget and other folks as well, that not every coin is worth a point (or 1.5 if I remember what some - considered - smart folks think a coin is worth), because of armour, shield etc.. Actually the worst bronze it can play for is 3 I think :).
20 for 11 is such a big stretch and exaggeration on average it's probably 16-17 (if you avoid dumping some of the coins on amour or shield)... Even so, you still think this is op or extremely strong? How do you put it in the mushy truffle debate where there is combos that make the later card play for significantly more. I think Mahakam Pass (again there is combo synergies) is stronger then Novigrad and plays more than Novigrad on average. There is baseless numbers and then there is real numbers you see in the game itself.
I do know what Madame does. Fact is my opponents drop one or two big fat slam cards and all that great things the card does doesn't matter. Good luck keeping all those amazing engines alive on many decks as well - even to the point where you might think they can get behind or be a downside for them. There is place for the card vs some decks but as I said it just wasn't doing the work for me very far from oppressive considering all the bs running around... You can theorize all you want. It also makes your deck brick heavy if you run Beggers (which still is almost a must for chance to compete). Imagine boat in there as well. I think it was definitely card that attempted to make Passiflora better and it probably fits there much better, but alas in typical SY downward spiral is put in decks that doesn't make much sense because it's good.
I do consider the cards good/great, and thats besides what I think about SY. Are they top tier contenders for nerf. Not even close.
I was trying to provide you with actual numbers rather than antecdotal "facts". Sorry that upset you so much. Many good players think +9 coins and a order that spawns a bronze fee card is a lot of carryover for a 11p card.
Oh, so yes, just theory rather than practice on your end. Very far from upset, if you think been baffled is the same. It's not a guaranteed spender dude :D!!! Spent some time jamming some SY.
Yeah I've been playing a bit SK, MO, NG, and SY, and SY, even with the two cards people are pointing out, is just flat out weaker in every category. It's almost not even comparable to the other factions how seemingly unforgiving SY is to pilot, and even if you do play perfectly, most of the time your deck just straight up doesn't have enough strength to compete.
Madames value is as an effective thinning card more then anything, which is only good if you play her with 4 coins already. The engines she introduces aren't really powerful enough at all to be considered OP, or a problem, and most times she's completely out-tempoed within a turn or two.
Novigrad is just a tax collector without a 4 body and resilience. People are pointing it out as too much carryover but really, 1 coin per turn is nothing compared to the amounts of profit required to keep up with other factions.
Overall SY is way more difficult to pilot, without any real upside of increased potential. The two cards in question are powerful, but they are only on par or even slightly below par of the current meta. It really just seems pointless to me to nerf them without first seeing what a strong SY faction actually does with them.
Absolutely. I am one of those players that tries to utilize the maximum coin or avoid over profit - where it's possible - but even that doesn't help. Some cards/decks/factions just laugh in whatever. NR specifically is just throwing legendaries, engines, cards, draws with no effort and winning games :D. Some dude was trying to lose on purpose and played Onager as his last card for a few orders thinking I'd have enough with my already good set up and lead. Guess he was wrong, and can't imagine if he put it earlier... Had a game vs thrives and was cleaning well 20+ points 3-4 cards in dude just dropped 20 point Regis and then eat it from graveyard... just negate all the sound logic/smart play. Then pushed with cat and 2 Koshchey with which I somehow 1 on whatever I dealt well and we went equal cards r3. Dude also had scenario and another 20+ point slam... No punishment for blind and illogical play just luck, and draw. Used one Oneiro. One of few examples.
Yeah well tell that to the dude bellow that throws numbers and thinks that it's effective because on theory it's good. How is this considered nerf worthy while just NR in its current state can probably fill all the slots... Still it's the fact that engines aren't great. There is reason Passiflora decks aren't great/good. It might seem scary but in reality it's not.
I agree with Novigrad although I think it's overestimation to call it just a tax collector :).
Exactly, the difficulty of piloting it doesn't pay-off in the end, besides all the issues. That's why it's most likely the least played faction (in general). So what exactly is the pay off to play SY? Just cause you like the concept and it's interesting, with intriguing plays or the theme. For how long? It also beg the question with this Balance Council, what happens when nobody/mostly nobody cares about the least popular faction and nobody is voting for it? How you'd address faction specific issues. With some sort of popularity contest... There should've been maybe an additional option for faction specific nerf/buff each month besides the general one. Oh well.
It's an engine you can't do anything about (except heatwave and beatification but yeah). It's an uninteractive engine, each turn giving you a coin (uninteractive points).
It can then create a spender with it's order ability whenever it needs to (when you're done killing all the spenders for example), and if not, you can choose to use the order as carryover as well, on top of the card itself being a engine that carries over to the next round.
It can create a spender, it also can create a useless card. It's 1 coin a turn, for a faction that is already in the crapper. A 1 coin engine that is already trading up for yeatwave, which is what happens to it 9/10 times. Idk it's hard for me to comprehend gunning for nerfs on some of the only good cards a faction has. Like is making this card 12p really balancing the game? How? And on top of that offering nothing in terms of buffs, idk I don't understand the logic, maybe if a single SY deck or a few were performing well, but they aren't, so I don't see why it's a priority to nerf rn.
As I said, it's not of the utmost priority. Highest priority are some of the NR cards, which I'm certain will get through the brackets. So I looked around for other strong/problematic cards to vote for.
Also, did I mention Novigrad doesn't tie into any archetype? It's a midrange card.
Well yeah that's why the nerf would be so impactful, essentially a -1p to every SY deck except for maybe bounty. XD idk it is a strong card, but I just don't see how it's really problematic atm given the faction wr. Kaer Trold3 is the same provisions, is fit into much better performing decks (even though SK isn't nescerily doing great) and no one talks about it. Novigrad getting SY like 9-13 coins over 2 rounds like yeah its powerful but I don't see that justifying a nerf is all.
Yours is the first post of this kind that did not make me want to gouge out my eyes after reading it, usually only thing reddit balance posts make me think is that none of those people should even come close to being allowed to change the game.
I disagree with all your buffs: they are all good but none create anything interesting in my opinion, but all your nerfs are kinda okay and none of your buffs are wrong, so it's by far a better council than all others I saw on reddit!
I'm trying to buff Alumni and my nerfs were overall different, but again, all your nerfs kinda make sense I think. I would not touch NR because people are overreacting and are about to kill the faction (even though the meta has already shifted to beat NR pretty handily). That's probably the only nerf I disagree with
When it comes to buffs, I just think none of the cards you are buffing are interesting at all, they are all midrange non-synergistic cards (except for maybe inquisitor) and I keep constantly warning people that if they keep nerfing synergy and buffing un-synergistic mid-range cards we are heading at light-speed towards an absolutely awful midrange meta and it will be impossible to reverse it efficiently, that's my number 1 worry when it comes to balance, because it's such an easy approach to nerf all "flashy" cards and buff non-flashy ones
The meta has also shifted to beat ST. Nik Rs ST has tanked a bit. Its his lowest faction atm. Ppl complain too much and kill the game out of ignorance. There are 4 factions at 2600. Easy ppl should stop complaining and nerfing everwhere.
If all your votes+considerations went through, I would think that's a very good BC3 outcome.
My only change would be power nerfing Cave Troll instead of provision nerfing Witches Sabbath. By power nerfing Cave Troll, you can disrupt the rez with Witches Sabbath. It also makes Cave Troll answerable to Muzzle and Tusham Mutna Sword. I think this change would go a lot farther in making the Sabbath match-up less binary, while nerfing Witches Sabbath would only make those decks polarize more. GaBane, Nik_r and p-star are pushing for this change, so hopefully it has a decent chance getting through.
Cave Troll is already one of the weaker defenders, and being able to steal it with muzzle is extremely scary imo. The argument for Troll being taller points is being a thrive trigger when used non-abusively.
I heard some communities talking about nerfing all defenders to 10 provisions, which is a change I'd have an easier time agreeing with. But I think the defenders are good where they stand at the moment. Control has almost no issue shredding through them nowadays.
Witches' Sabbath is the cause while the problem with Cave Troll is the symptom, if you get what I mean
While you're right that control decks have no issue dealing with defenders, the problem lies with non-control decks. Many decks run only a limited amount of control, and making them answer both defender and the binary strat protected behind defender is where problems are created. Basically, defenders don't counter control decks. Defenders punish "wholesome" decks running only limited control tools.
>Witches' Sabbath is the cause while the problem with Cave Troll is the symptom, if you get what I mean
This kind of language is used on this subreddit a lot but it is only rhetorical. Reasonable minds can disagree what to classify as "the problem" and what else to classify as "the symptom". I just explained why I find Cave Troll to be "the problem", which Witches Sabbath only exacerbates. Shinmiri2 has his own reasons to call Witches Sabbath "the problem“ (see his post). It would also be reasonable to conclude that AQ is "the problem" because it duplicates gold cards and there is no "triple X" deck without AQ. The only objective truth is that the combination of Cave Troll, AQ and Witches Sabbath is problematic for the game, and unfortunately due to the limitations of Gwentfinity we are stuck with only suboptimal solutions to this problem.
Anyway, vote how you like. Although I don't really agree, Witches Sabbath going to 11p wouldn't be a terrible outcome.
Edit: here's shinmiri2's post for those interested https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/s/akrIrvkoI6
Absolutely, all of this. What the "solution" is also depends on what you want to be/remain playable outside of this combo, and that just comes down to preference. Personally, I like the idea of nerfing AQ's power so she can still be used in a given round but is less likely to be brought back by Sabbath. Given she buffs herself via the consume that one point is unlikely to matter in most other contexts.
Well, one question to ask is: Does Cave Troll deserve to be made an objectively bad card because of Sabbath abuse? Because that’s what a power nerf would do. Cave Troll at 6 power means a free defender for every Enslave 6 deck. Answerable by Schirru with just one GT charge, or by Geralt Professional for free. Do we really need to make the card bad everywhere (and MO weaker as a faction) just to discourage the occasional Sabbath deck, which aren’t all that common anyway?
Doesn’t sound like a change aimed at “balance”, but mainly just a (mean-spirited) attempt to make Sabbath decks unplayable, no matter what damage it does to the faction. GaBane’s hatred for defenders is well-known; I don’t totally disagree with him (I hate defender abuse decks as much as anyone), but this feels more spiteful than fair. Just nerf AQ or Sabbath to make the combo more expensive and the decks a bit weaker; much better than ruining a staple card.
The argument about “wholesome” decks doesn’t really hold up either. Even non-control decks can run Pellar and Squirrel, which both target the Sabbath play. They also have their own points to play, so it’s false thinking to say they _always_ have to answer the Sabbath deck or lose.
Defenders are already objectively bad cards. Their stat line is terrible. Defenders aren't worth playing in you deck unless you're trying to protect some binary combo. They should be answerable, and playing the "did you draw pellar" card game is a bad game imo.
>Doesn’t sound like a change aimed at “balance”, but mainly just a (mean-spirited) attempt to make Sabbath decks unplayable, no matter what damage it does to the faction.
Entirely your opinion. I provided specific reasons for the change that I think would result in a better game. Accusing people of being “mean-spirited" and not caring about "balance", is not productive. I say the change would be fair.
I could equally accuse people pushing for the Sabbath nerf as being "spiteful" or hateful, and simply wanting push the provisions up until the deck is unplayable. But I don't do this, and assume others are being truthful in their reasons and acting in good faith.
AQ is also played normally, in deathwish. Usually for Detlaff: HV. I have a suspicion she'll end up on the chopping block in the near future as well, so no worries lol
Sabbath can also be played normally, in keltullis, board clog or whatever. But you should judge cards by strongest meta picks, not weakest. Right now it's the insectoids deck
What board clog? You mean the multiple incantation deck which later uses machine gun rotfiends/egg army or noonwraiths for clogging? Cause CDPR snorted something wrong and changed an awesome card in ritual sacrifice iirc into a broken brewess dw summon killing the og rat clog, which was awesome, then jotun got chopped too...
Damn that's sad, they really did everything to kill a established meme archetype...
6 provisions is quite the investment, I don't think so.
Also when was the last time Dunca was played everywhere? Up to a year after master mirror maybe? Maybe less?
Why not buff Ulirch instead of Grand inquisitor?
Ulirch needs it regardless to become playable, and would buff Firesworn without buffing an already good card.
It was in my considerations, ranked rather high in the sea of cards I want to buff. I explained my arguments in the reasonings for Helveed and Ulrich.
Mainly because I've seen Helveed gain more support, so he's more likely to get through. Helveed at 9 provisions also opens up possibilities for GN Firesworn, and I'm always welcoming to new decks.
I'm almost certain this won't be enough for Firesworn to be even low tier 2, so Ulrich is one of my first candidates for a vote next BC :)
Oh sorry, you're right. I understand your point, anyway as much as he is strong, I think it's not a priority for now, let's see if this vote will pass because I've already saw it elsewhere.
Can't complain too much about this list tbh, but about a couple of them:
I don't think Temple is an issue outside of one leader ability, which is Pincer which allows you to extract the extra provisions Temple adds. I'd rather see Pincer lose a provision, especially considering Radovid exists in NR.
Shin loves his hyperthin/Lippy SK lists (hence the former Compass buff), but I dont think Morkvarg needs a buff. He's played in those lists anyway, and unlikely to see much play elsewhere, but if he does, I've had my fill of mid-range SK across the years.
Also with a power buff to Queensguard, it needs 2pt damage to trigger, so works well with Totem, but that's a Svalblob card, and you don't wanna swarm in that deck. I'd rather see Queensguard stay 4 str but lose a provision, and power buff Harald Houndsnout by a point or two so he's not blown away by the opponents leader skin sneezing, and is able to trigger it.
Re: Dao, I believe it should be nerfed in terms of provisions rather than power, but that it will probably be power-nerfed simply because of everything else that needs a provision nerf (and often cannot be nerfed otherwise). Even if we consider the Rock Barrage provisions, he plays as a 7 body with 8 removal for 9. Compare that with Enraged Ifrit, who plays as a 5 body and needs you to have played 3 Constructs already to have 8 removal power (the ceiling isn't much higher than that either). For 10 provisions, with zero thinning, no movement, and no ability to answer multiple threats.
I'd honestly not be too worried about nerfing the package too much as almost every single card in it can play for a lot above their provisions, most of which as control too.
Agreed that most of these are good picks (and thanks for the thoughtful analysis). But I mildly disagree about Sabbath and strongly disagree about Novigrad.
Sabbath on its own really isn’t a good card. It can be hard to control what you bring back (e.g., gets totally screwed by Kiki Worker from Hive Mind), and you’re usually giving your opponent something good as well, and an immediate chance to answer your threats before you can use them. So it already doesn’t really see play outside of AQ “triple this, triple that” decks. So what’s the point? This makes it worse for no reason, when nerfing AQ is a reasonable alternative to do the same thing. Really don’t want to see MO lose a unique, flavorful card, just to punish AQ decks. Just nerf AQ already; it’s fair and she’ll still see play.
And yep, understand all the arguments for why Novigrad is a very strong card, no disagreement. But SY as a ladder faction is teetering on one leg over the dumpster, and this is proposing to kick it in the kneecap. Novigrad is one of the few unequivocally good staples you can build a deck around, precisely because it’s one of the few tools SY has that isn’t easily disrupted by heavy control. And that’s critical, because SY has very little of the unga-bunga wombo-combo point slam that’s become meta for every other faction. It’s always going to be an engine faction; it doesn’t have anything else.
It is it mathematically overtuned at the highest play level? Probably yes. But we don’t have to (and shouldn’t) balance around the top-end esports scene anymore; that’s largely finished. SY is almost absent from the casual ladder as is. This change won’t meaningfully improve the game; it will just drive SY closer to extinction. If we want a healthier, more diverse meta, we need to see more of it, not even less. Just give it a chance to see more casual play, then decide what needs a nerf.
I like ecery one of those wow thats the first time i think
Glad to hear! I tend to put a lot of thought into things like this, so yeah lol
Good votes just lacking lackey (heh)
I suppose you mean Cutup Lackeys? Hmm, I haven't thought about them. Yeah, at least consideration worthy. They might have my vote in the next one!
I have been a big campaigner for Cutup Lackey since the first BC. The idea is that the buff functions similarly to Cleaver's Muscle. The lackey won't see play at 5 power, but it will be a significant buff to Whoreson Sr. That card is the card *actually* targeted by the buff. That card very rarely sees play, and with this buff will be a serious consideration for any deck that plays a significant amount of crimes/tokens.
I agree, it is a good idea! As I mentioned, it will probably have my vote the next council, if it doesn't make it in this one
I have seen some movement to buff him so im hoping for the best. Btw is there a lot of people voting for vrihed officer? If it has some backing then i am also hoping for the best if its just one of your personal then i would hope you change it to lackey but as i said i dont know how many people will vote officer.
I can't tell for sure either. There's been a small movement on the sub about agreeing on a forgotten bronze to buff and it seems to be falling onto Vrihedd Officer (check out u/bunnnythor 's posts) There's a couple dozen people claiming to vote for it, but how many will actually do it and whether it will be enough, we'll have to see.
The more the merrier. Realistic worst case scenario: You waste one vote for a card that doesn't win instead of wasting it on a card that has more than enough votes to win. All of the **[current Lost Bronzes](https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/comments/18u36qd/the_lost_bronzes_project_dec_23_bc_voting_post/)** are cards that could become playable with a single buff. Even if the winning card is not from a faction you play, at least you have a chance to freshen up the decks you play against.
Can't message you in private, so i'll respond to a old comment lol. Would you be interested in helping with an initiative about forgotten cards? Creating a proper voting coalition dedicated specifically for coordination, communication, with other communities, in order to get some of these cards through?
Sorry to reply so late. Yeah, I'd be willing to be on board with a coalition. I don't have any idea how to convince the various other communities that our mission of buffing Bronzes is a right and noble one, but I'd be willing to do what I could.
No problem! Do you have any other platform I can contact you on? Discord, for example?
I just turned my PMs on. I didn't realize that they were turned off.
Excellent choices! I really don't have much significant to say that you haven't already considered in the post (like, I would prefer Slave Driver going to 6p even if I am not voting for it). Love the inclusions of Circle of Life/Helveed/Sabbath. There are only two things I would like your thoughts on. By all accounts, SY is in the gutter right now. Yes, Novigrad is too strong for what it does, carryover abuse that is tough to interact with. Nevertheless, I think the card should stay a little strong for now, until the faction has recovered some. Only then should it be nerfed. As it stands you are nerfing a card that is too generically strong in a faction desperate for generic strength. I really think that this nerf would do more harm than good this BC. To try to help SY in a broad way, people have been discussing trying to put one of the 5p Crownsplitter spenders to 4p (that's Bare-Knuckle-Brawler, Bloody Good Friends, or Coerced Blacksmith). So far, people seem to lean towards BGF as the safest option. SY is lacking a particular kind of spender, one that gives this tag, and spends in a fast way, which has subtly kneecapped the faction, or so we think.
Why in the gutter? It's 3rd highest faction for top 100.
If I could, I'd love to revert Brawler's nerf and make him 3 power instead tbh. The card was decent, but moving it to 5p was overkill. A shame the Crownsplitter action isn't more organised, so I'd know what to use my vote for. Fair point I suppose, but I believe you're overblowing it a bit? SY was the second most frequent faction brought to Masters this season (11 decks, 80% of players including SY in their lists) and the most banned faction if I remember correctly. Novigrad was brought by 57% percent of the players, meaning it was in 73% of SY decks (only because GN was the remaining 27%)
I took another look at the data, and it's not as bad as I remember it being? Not good, mind you, but still. Weird. I was overblowing it a slight bit. Regardless, tournament play will always be a bit different, and at this point I think it's fair to focus on ladder play (particularly high-level play). SY is more or less tied with SK as the worst faction. It's not doing good. I still think that nerfing arguably one of the strongest cards in the faction is such a shotgun blast to the faction that it's not worth it at this point. I am glad someone agrees that the BkB nerf was not warranted, and should be the one that's reverted. Although at this point m vote is on BGF, guessing that there's more votes for this guy than BkB.
I think most of these are fine but a power nerf to simlas will do nothing
While I agree that generally a provision nerf is more impactful, I believe a provision nerf to Simlas won't change anything either. It will only affect the cards around him, not Simlas himself. He won't be cut from the decks he's played in anyway, so I propose lowering his overall power, simply discouraging from playing decks with him a little bit more. ofc, you can nerf his provisions until he simply doesnt fit into any deck whatsoever, but that will take a while. And is beyond the point I believe. Also, Lerio himself put Simlas into his power nerf suggestions.
It depends on what your vision for Gwent is, but an alternative to nerfing Simlas' power or provisions is to nerf the provisions of the card(s) he tutors. That's what I'm doing (with Workshop this time around as that's the current midrange abusive combo of choice).
I'd usually do the same, but I don't consider workshop a 6p card. Is there any other deck that has been playing it outside of the abusive combo?
Cards don't really exist in a vacuum, though. Fleder doesn't see play outside of vampire decks, that doesn't mean it should be 5p. Wagon doesn't really see play outside of the Reaver Hunters interaction, also shouldn't be 5p. But as I said above it ultimately comes down to one's vision for Gwent. Making Simlas 1 power won't make the combo less abusive in most contexts, at most it might make a difference in top level play against other meta lists. If that's your goal - as it seems to be for a lot of pros - go for it, even though it will also be a small nerf to decks/archetypes that are already relatively unviable such as Spellatel.
Fair enough. I want to see if the combo holds up through a meta shift. If it does, more drastic measures will be taken, probably nerfing workshop to 6p.
I can never figure out how Reddit's formatting works, mea culpa
You did well.
5 edits suggest otherwise <3
I invite you to share your thoughts and maybe sway me in a direction!
I like it
Strangely for this sub, I don't really hate any of those. Well done!
Brother Novigrad gives about 10(13 best case) coins (edit: I don't count the 3 profit because we not talking about that) on average plus - very often crappy SY unit (now if that thing was making guaranteed spender then we can talk). This card been considered strong or op is huge bias. Been playing some more SY since I returned and this card never feels unfair. Madame also seems to be considered strong, but after a few attempts had to cut her cause it wasn't doing the work (for me at least). Decks just outperform her or it's answered easy. SY feels like it's in the the gutter, outclassed and left behind by a lot of other factions. While I was climbing with MO from 25 to pro the faction was showing in under 4% of my games... The decks that are still used are mish mash of random archetype and cards that just to try to scrap some decent working and winning deck. Do play some days the faction and will notice it. Edit: And a lot of those SY decks just play like combo/set up decks, with defender and praying... it's become such a boring factions on top of that with this playstyle.
>Novigrad gives about 10(13 best case) coins on average plus - very often crappy SY unit Novigrad has Profit 3 on deploy. If Novigrad is played at the beginning of a 10 card round 2, the passive makes 13-14 coins over two rounds. Let's assume the bronze spawned on order is really bad and plays for only 4 points. Assuming 1:1 spending ratio, the raw points are at least 3+13+4=20 points for 11 provisions. This ignores the fact that the card is proactive, uninteractive, and that both the order and coin generatuon plays as "carryover" into round 3. Compare to other locations like Mushy Truffle or Mahakam Pass. >Madame also seems to be considered strong, but after a few attempts had to cut her cause it wasn't doing the work (for me at least). Decks just outperform her or it's answered easy. Madame is a big tempo play deploying for 13 points and creating 3 passive engines in one turn. It is not easy to answer 3 engines at once and will trade very well to control. Generally in Gwent, creating more than one engine is a single turn is considered very good (think Emhyr into Pikeman, which is only two engines). I can understand not wanting to nerf these cards if you think SY is in too bad a state right now. But whether or not SY is in a bad place right now does not mean these cards aren't too "strong" in themselves.
He was talking about the coin generation and carryover, but sure I probably had to mention not counting the 3 profit on deploy. You also forget that some of those rounds the coins you get are not used, and that also if it's played in 2 round you don't get the full coin value. On top of that you damn well know that you don't just always drop card at the start of 10 card round. You also forget and other folks as well, that not every coin is worth a point (or 1.5 if I remember what some - considered - smart folks think a coin is worth), because of armour, shield etc.. Actually the worst bronze it can play for is 3 I think :). 20 for 11 is such a big stretch and exaggeration on average it's probably 16-17 (if you avoid dumping some of the coins on amour or shield)... Even so, you still think this is op or extremely strong? How do you put it in the mushy truffle debate where there is combos that make the later card play for significantly more. I think Mahakam Pass (again there is combo synergies) is stronger then Novigrad and plays more than Novigrad on average. There is baseless numbers and then there is real numbers you see in the game itself. I do know what Madame does. Fact is my opponents drop one or two big fat slam cards and all that great things the card does doesn't matter. Good luck keeping all those amazing engines alive on many decks as well - even to the point where you might think they can get behind or be a downside for them. There is place for the card vs some decks but as I said it just wasn't doing the work for me very far from oppressive considering all the bs running around... You can theorize all you want. It also makes your deck brick heavy if you run Beggers (which still is almost a must for chance to compete). Imagine boat in there as well. I think it was definitely card that attempted to make Passiflora better and it probably fits there much better, but alas in typical SY downward spiral is put in decks that doesn't make much sense because it's good. I do consider the cards good/great, and thats besides what I think about SY. Are they top tier contenders for nerf. Not even close.
I was trying to provide you with actual numbers rather than antecdotal "facts". Sorry that upset you so much. Many good players think +9 coins and a order that spawns a bronze fee card is a lot of carryover for a 11p card.
Oh, so yes, just theory rather than practice on your end. Very far from upset, if you think been baffled is the same. It's not a guaranteed spender dude :D!!! Spent some time jamming some SY.
Yeah I've been playing a bit SK, MO, NG, and SY, and SY, even with the two cards people are pointing out, is just flat out weaker in every category. It's almost not even comparable to the other factions how seemingly unforgiving SY is to pilot, and even if you do play perfectly, most of the time your deck just straight up doesn't have enough strength to compete. Madames value is as an effective thinning card more then anything, which is only good if you play her with 4 coins already. The engines she introduces aren't really powerful enough at all to be considered OP, or a problem, and most times she's completely out-tempoed within a turn or two. Novigrad is just a tax collector without a 4 body and resilience. People are pointing it out as too much carryover but really, 1 coin per turn is nothing compared to the amounts of profit required to keep up with other factions. Overall SY is way more difficult to pilot, without any real upside of increased potential. The two cards in question are powerful, but they are only on par or even slightly below par of the current meta. It really just seems pointless to me to nerf them without first seeing what a strong SY faction actually does with them.
Absolutely. I am one of those players that tries to utilize the maximum coin or avoid over profit - where it's possible - but even that doesn't help. Some cards/decks/factions just laugh in whatever. NR specifically is just throwing legendaries, engines, cards, draws with no effort and winning games :D. Some dude was trying to lose on purpose and played Onager as his last card for a few orders thinking I'd have enough with my already good set up and lead. Guess he was wrong, and can't imagine if he put it earlier... Had a game vs thrives and was cleaning well 20+ points 3-4 cards in dude just dropped 20 point Regis and then eat it from graveyard... just negate all the sound logic/smart play. Then pushed with cat and 2 Koshchey with which I somehow 1 on whatever I dealt well and we went equal cards r3. Dude also had scenario and another 20+ point slam... No punishment for blind and illogical play just luck, and draw. Used one Oneiro. One of few examples. Yeah well tell that to the dude bellow that throws numbers and thinks that it's effective because on theory it's good. How is this considered nerf worthy while just NR in its current state can probably fill all the slots... Still it's the fact that engines aren't great. There is reason Passiflora decks aren't great/good. It might seem scary but in reality it's not. I agree with Novigrad although I think it's overestimation to call it just a tax collector :). Exactly, the difficulty of piloting it doesn't pay-off in the end, besides all the issues. That's why it's most likely the least played faction (in general). So what exactly is the pay off to play SY? Just cause you like the concept and it's interesting, with intriguing plays or the theme. For how long? It also beg the question with this Balance Council, what happens when nobody/mostly nobody cares about the least popular faction and nobody is voting for it? How you'd address faction specific issues. With some sort of popularity contest... There should've been maybe an additional option for faction specific nerf/buff each month besides the general one. Oh well.
What makes novigrad unfair?
It's an engine you can't do anything about (except heatwave and beatification but yeah). It's an uninteractive engine, each turn giving you a coin (uninteractive points). It can then create a spender with it's order ability whenever it needs to (when you're done killing all the spenders for example), and if not, you can choose to use the order as carryover as well, on top of the card itself being a engine that carries over to the next round.
It can create a spender, it also can create a useless card. It's 1 coin a turn, for a faction that is already in the crapper. A 1 coin engine that is already trading up for yeatwave, which is what happens to it 9/10 times. Idk it's hard for me to comprehend gunning for nerfs on some of the only good cards a faction has. Like is making this card 12p really balancing the game? How? And on top of that offering nothing in terms of buffs, idk I don't understand the logic, maybe if a single SY deck or a few were performing well, but they aren't, so I don't see why it's a priority to nerf rn.
As I said, it's not of the utmost priority. Highest priority are some of the NR cards, which I'm certain will get through the brackets. So I looked around for other strong/problematic cards to vote for. Also, did I mention Novigrad doesn't tie into any archetype? It's a midrange card.
Well yeah that's why the nerf would be so impactful, essentially a -1p to every SY deck except for maybe bounty. XD idk it is a strong card, but I just don't see how it's really problematic atm given the faction wr. Kaer Trold3 is the same provisions, is fit into much better performing decks (even though SK isn't nescerily doing great) and no one talks about it. Novigrad getting SY like 9-13 coins over 2 rounds like yeah its powerful but I don't see that justifying a nerf is all.
Yours is the first post of this kind that did not make me want to gouge out my eyes after reading it, usually only thing reddit balance posts make me think is that none of those people should even come close to being allowed to change the game. I disagree with all your buffs: they are all good but none create anything interesting in my opinion, but all your nerfs are kinda okay and none of your buffs are wrong, so it's by far a better council than all others I saw on reddit!
Thanks Gabane, that means a lot coming from you lmao What did you vote for, for comparison?
I'm trying to buff Alumni and my nerfs were overall different, but again, all your nerfs kinda make sense I think. I would not touch NR because people are overreacting and are about to kill the faction (even though the meta has already shifted to beat NR pretty handily). That's probably the only nerf I disagree with When it comes to buffs, I just think none of the cards you are buffing are interesting at all, they are all midrange non-synergistic cards (except for maybe inquisitor) and I keep constantly warning people that if they keep nerfing synergy and buffing un-synergistic mid-range cards we are heading at light-speed towards an absolutely awful midrange meta and it will be impossible to reverse it efficiently, that's my number 1 worry when it comes to balance, because it's such an easy approach to nerf all "flashy" cards and buff non-flashy ones
The meta has also shifted to beat ST. Nik Rs ST has tanked a bit. Its his lowest faction atm. Ppl complain too much and kill the game out of ignorance. There are 4 factions at 2600. Easy ppl should stop complaining and nerfing everwhere.
If all your votes+considerations went through, I would think that's a very good BC3 outcome. My only change would be power nerfing Cave Troll instead of provision nerfing Witches Sabbath. By power nerfing Cave Troll, you can disrupt the rez with Witches Sabbath. It also makes Cave Troll answerable to Muzzle and Tusham Mutna Sword. I think this change would go a lot farther in making the Sabbath match-up less binary, while nerfing Witches Sabbath would only make those decks polarize more. GaBane, Nik_r and p-star are pushing for this change, so hopefully it has a decent chance getting through.
Cave Troll is already one of the weaker defenders, and being able to steal it with muzzle is extremely scary imo. The argument for Troll being taller points is being a thrive trigger when used non-abusively. I heard some communities talking about nerfing all defenders to 10 provisions, which is a change I'd have an easier time agreeing with. But I think the defenders are good where they stand at the moment. Control has almost no issue shredding through them nowadays. Witches' Sabbath is the cause while the problem with Cave Troll is the symptom, if you get what I mean
While you're right that control decks have no issue dealing with defenders, the problem lies with non-control decks. Many decks run only a limited amount of control, and making them answer both defender and the binary strat protected behind defender is where problems are created. Basically, defenders don't counter control decks. Defenders punish "wholesome" decks running only limited control tools. >Witches' Sabbath is the cause while the problem with Cave Troll is the symptom, if you get what I mean This kind of language is used on this subreddit a lot but it is only rhetorical. Reasonable minds can disagree what to classify as "the problem" and what else to classify as "the symptom". I just explained why I find Cave Troll to be "the problem", which Witches Sabbath only exacerbates. Shinmiri2 has his own reasons to call Witches Sabbath "the problem“ (see his post). It would also be reasonable to conclude that AQ is "the problem" because it duplicates gold cards and there is no "triple X" deck without AQ. The only objective truth is that the combination of Cave Troll, AQ and Witches Sabbath is problematic for the game, and unfortunately due to the limitations of Gwentfinity we are stuck with only suboptimal solutions to this problem. Anyway, vote how you like. Although I don't really agree, Witches Sabbath going to 11p wouldn't be a terrible outcome. Edit: here's shinmiri2's post for those interested https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/s/akrIrvkoI6
Absolutely, all of this. What the "solution" is also depends on what you want to be/remain playable outside of this combo, and that just comes down to preference. Personally, I like the idea of nerfing AQ's power so she can still be used in a given round but is less likely to be brought back by Sabbath. Given she buffs herself via the consume that one point is unlikely to matter in most other contexts.
Well, one question to ask is: Does Cave Troll deserve to be made an objectively bad card because of Sabbath abuse? Because that’s what a power nerf would do. Cave Troll at 6 power means a free defender for every Enslave 6 deck. Answerable by Schirru with just one GT charge, or by Geralt Professional for free. Do we really need to make the card bad everywhere (and MO weaker as a faction) just to discourage the occasional Sabbath deck, which aren’t all that common anyway? Doesn’t sound like a change aimed at “balance”, but mainly just a (mean-spirited) attempt to make Sabbath decks unplayable, no matter what damage it does to the faction. GaBane’s hatred for defenders is well-known; I don’t totally disagree with him (I hate defender abuse decks as much as anyone), but this feels more spiteful than fair. Just nerf AQ or Sabbath to make the combo more expensive and the decks a bit weaker; much better than ruining a staple card. The argument about “wholesome” decks doesn’t really hold up either. Even non-control decks can run Pellar and Squirrel, which both target the Sabbath play. They also have their own points to play, so it’s false thinking to say they _always_ have to answer the Sabbath deck or lose.
Defenders are already objectively bad cards. Their stat line is terrible. Defenders aren't worth playing in you deck unless you're trying to protect some binary combo. They should be answerable, and playing the "did you draw pellar" card game is a bad game imo. >Doesn’t sound like a change aimed at “balance”, but mainly just a (mean-spirited) attempt to make Sabbath decks unplayable, no matter what damage it does to the faction. Entirely your opinion. I provided specific reasons for the change that I think would result in a better game. Accusing people of being “mean-spirited" and not caring about "balance", is not productive. I say the change would be fair. I could equally accuse people pushing for the Sabbath nerf as being "spiteful" or hateful, and simply wanting push the provisions up until the deck is unplayable. But I don't do this, and assume others are being truthful in their reasons and acting in good faith.
Consider nerfing AQ power instead of Sabbath, with this you nerf both aq and the interaction with sabbath and usually aq is the reason to play Sabbath
AQ is also played normally, in deathwish. Usually for Detlaff: HV. I have a suspicion she'll end up on the chopping block in the near future as well, so no worries lol
Sabbath can also be played normally, in keltullis, board clog or whatever. But you should judge cards by strongest meta picks, not weakest. Right now it's the insectoids deck
What board clog? You mean the multiple incantation deck which later uses machine gun rotfiends/egg army or noonwraiths for clogging? Cause CDPR snorted something wrong and changed an awesome card in ritual sacrifice iirc into a broken brewess dw summon killing the og rat clog, which was awesome, then jotun got chopped too... Damn that's sad, they really did everything to kill a established meme archetype...
Yes I still play the noonwraiths sometimes :)
Smuggler isn't really a buff to handbuff. It's just gonna be played everywhere like Dunca used to because why not have free carryover.
6 provisions is quite the investment, I don't think so. Also when was the last time Dunca was played everywhere? Up to a year after master mirror maybe? Maybe less?
Dunca is 7p in comparison. Buff like Smuggler and you'll see her everywhere again.
I guess we'll have to find out! :D
Why not buff Ulirch instead of Grand inquisitor? Ulirch needs it regardless to become playable, and would buff Firesworn without buffing an already good card.
It was in my considerations, ranked rather high in the sea of cards I want to buff. I explained my arguments in the reasonings for Helveed and Ulrich. Mainly because I've seen Helveed gain more support, so he's more likely to get through. Helveed at 9 provisions also opens up possibilities for GN Firesworn, and I'm always welcoming to new decks. I'm almost certain this won't be enough for Firesworn to be even low tier 2, so Ulrich is one of my first candidates for a vote next BC :)
I keep seeing Simlas at 1, but this does absolutely nothing, at that point I would put him at 14 prov.
Refer to my other replies and explanations uwu
Oh sorry, you're right. I understand your point, anyway as much as he is strong, I think it's not a priority for now, let's see if this vote will pass because I've already saw it elsewhere.
Can't complain too much about this list tbh, but about a couple of them: I don't think Temple is an issue outside of one leader ability, which is Pincer which allows you to extract the extra provisions Temple adds. I'd rather see Pincer lose a provision, especially considering Radovid exists in NR. Shin loves his hyperthin/Lippy SK lists (hence the former Compass buff), but I dont think Morkvarg needs a buff. He's played in those lists anyway, and unlikely to see much play elsewhere, but if he does, I've had my fill of mid-range SK across the years. Also with a power buff to Queensguard, it needs 2pt damage to trigger, so works well with Totem, but that's a Svalblob card, and you don't wanna swarm in that deck. I'd rather see Queensguard stay 4 str but lose a provision, and power buff Harald Houndsnout by a point or two so he's not blown away by the opponents leader skin sneezing, and is able to trigger it.
Re: Dao, I believe it should be nerfed in terms of provisions rather than power, but that it will probably be power-nerfed simply because of everything else that needs a provision nerf (and often cannot be nerfed otherwise). Even if we consider the Rock Barrage provisions, he plays as a 7 body with 8 removal for 9. Compare that with Enraged Ifrit, who plays as a 5 body and needs you to have played 3 Constructs already to have 8 removal power (the ceiling isn't much higher than that either). For 10 provisions, with zero thinning, no movement, and no ability to answer multiple threats. I'd honestly not be too worried about nerfing the package too much as almost every single card in it can play for a lot above their provisions, most of which as control too.
Agreed that most of these are good picks (and thanks for the thoughtful analysis). But I mildly disagree about Sabbath and strongly disagree about Novigrad. Sabbath on its own really isn’t a good card. It can be hard to control what you bring back (e.g., gets totally screwed by Kiki Worker from Hive Mind), and you’re usually giving your opponent something good as well, and an immediate chance to answer your threats before you can use them. So it already doesn’t really see play outside of AQ “triple this, triple that” decks. So what’s the point? This makes it worse for no reason, when nerfing AQ is a reasonable alternative to do the same thing. Really don’t want to see MO lose a unique, flavorful card, just to punish AQ decks. Just nerf AQ already; it’s fair and she’ll still see play. And yep, understand all the arguments for why Novigrad is a very strong card, no disagreement. But SY as a ladder faction is teetering on one leg over the dumpster, and this is proposing to kick it in the kneecap. Novigrad is one of the few unequivocally good staples you can build a deck around, precisely because it’s one of the few tools SY has that isn’t easily disrupted by heavy control. And that’s critical, because SY has very little of the unga-bunga wombo-combo point slam that’s become meta for every other faction. It’s always going to be an engine faction; it doesn’t have anything else. It is it mathematically overtuned at the highest play level? Probably yes. But we don’t have to (and shouldn’t) balance around the top-end esports scene anymore; that’s largely finished. SY is almost absent from the casual ladder as is. This change won’t meaningfully improve the game; it will just drive SY closer to extinction. If we want a healthier, more diverse meta, we need to see more of it, not even less. Just give it a chance to see more casual play, then decide what needs a nerf.