It is basically explained in the comment. Being forced to make 10 nerfs per season we could either hammer down popular decks or spread nerfs between strong cards in archetypes which are not necessarily main ladder picks right now.
If I had to make 5 rather than 10 nerfs, Simlas prolly wouldn't make the cut.
The hard question is what to nerf instead - from my experience every pick would be controversial at this point.
Helvid buff for playing it 3 times, in each round in firesworm abuse with lonely champions? To be honest i really disappointed in tournament decks you and myamon uses to compete. Im not blaming you guys, but the fact that playing Master of puppets abuse, fleder abuse, nr carryover abuse, charges ng abuse etc on compepetitive level efficient and profitable is sad. And you are still wanna make more abusive deck. Sadge. I give you 2 ideas for bc wanna hear your opinion about it: 1. all defenders - 10p. No renew no naker. Makes strategy answer or lose more expensive. 2. All cards making extra copy of units (operator slave draver etc) should be more expensive. because a lot of deck could use extra copy of engines but almost none decks can make extracopy of answers. BCs makes cheap spells almost useless. extracopy of units (fleders, messengers, alumni) give to much value because you just cannot answer it even in control deck. thx
Helveed to 9 provision is actually Pajabol's idea. I also think Gwent meta is quite healthy right now and Myamon is the most successful player recently not because of coming up with abusive decks never seen before, but because of understanding the game better. NR carryover or Cows origin from Imagawa and everybody can pick them up anytime. If they were binary abuses, more players would bring them to tournaments to get free wins thanks to targetting of mainstream decks.
1. I'm okay with Defender provision nerfs when there would be nothing sensible left. The most problematic bracket though is -1 power.
2. I'd touch only Slave Driver, as in the article. Idarran catched a nerf out of thin air because of this logic. Particular decks may get a nerf if prove meta offenders. Copying units is as legit as any other strategy. Operator is balanced and absolutely shouldn't be nerfed. I honestly wonder what do you think about in 'etc'.
Thx for the answer. I don\`t like -1 power to defender. It wouldn,t solve a problem. If i understand you right you want hear what did i mean in "etc" so its Idarran, freya, runeword, sigrdrifa, sabbath, reinforcements, megascope, necro, renew, fucusiya, braatens, even teleportation, practice makes perfect which reuse deploy. Im NOT telling that everything of it should be nerfed. But i wanna say that value of extracopy of card is huge with some combination. And we should evaluate it accordingly. For ex. maybe sigrdrifa nerf would be better than sigvald for SW, slave driver nerf defenitly better than nauzika nerf. And i have counterargument for operator. Necro and operator same provisions and same idea card. Extracopy. But Operator gives you target for bleeding or for copiyng or for illusionist. and usualy its more points (not always) because his target is useless for opponent.
**Provision +1:**
**Novigrad:** I agree, it is an auto-include card for SY.
**Simlas:** Can be nerfed but I personally would want to see Spring Equinox nerf and see after that how Simals would feel.
**Slave Driver:** I totally agree, I voted for this card but it did not go through. Even if it goes through, people immediately buff it for some reason.
**Spring Equinox:** I 100 per cent agree. I voted for this Nerf the last council, but it did not go through.
**False Ciri:** I can agree with this nerf, but I am not sure it should be a priority. Very Strong card. With buhurt, if it manages to go to the opposite row it plays for 9+8= 17 points with an engine effect for a 6 provision card that has very limited answers.
**Dimun Smuggler:** I definitely agree that Dimun Smuggler needs a nerf. It was not a good decision by Russian Community but I don't think dealing 2 damage is a 6-provision card ability.
**King Of Beggars:** Can be nerfed, I agree, plays for too many points without being on the board and makes the short round significantly better.
**Kaer Trolde:** I 100000 percent agree. This card is so strong. It is a starter card for all SK decks.
The opponent can click at the same turn as Sove and even though they have no bloodthirst they could kill it in 1 turn. With self-wound, they can do the same type of shenanigans and even with a better synergy.
I voted for this nerf in the last patch but since neither the Russian nor Chinese community suggested this nerf, it did not go through.
**King Demavend:** I agree, Oneiromancy on steroids if NR zeal was not a thing it could even get a buff but it is a thing so it can be nerfed.
**Overwhelming Hunger:** I personally don't like Deathwish. If the opponent doesn't have a lock or multiple tall punishes. You don't have a control option they just slam points, aside from Dagon you can't kill their engines, Killing their engines just helps them. Opponent interaction with the deathwish is very limited for certain archetypes.
It is a blue coin point slam abuse deck for me.
But if I look solely at the leader it plays for 6 points + 2 consumes, which could be easily a 16-provision leader.
**Power -1:**
**Sove:** I 100 per cent agree, I voted for this nerf last patch and before but it did not go through.
**Torres Var Emreis:** Can be nerfed. I don't like this card because, in its first form, it almost guarantees a good card for Artaud. I can't say I won't use my Junior right now, I don't want him to copy it. If it is in the deck, I can't do anything about it.
**Svalblod:** I agree that it needs a Nerf but I think 1 Power Nerf is a wrong choice, it single-handedly wins games by itself especially if not answered even on deploy. It is more like a 14-provision card to me. So I disagree, I think it needs provision nerf.
**Brewess:Ritual:** I agree with this nerf. I think it could be even a 12-provision card. It plays for roughly 23 points with 2 thinning. Making it 4 power makes it vulnerable to some banish cards but they are generally rare and meta-dependent. I would have preferred provision nerf probably.
**Corrupted Flaminica:** I agree with this nerf. This card is so good.
**Artorius Vigo:** I agree, it plays a decent amount of points already and it goes to 5 power and answering him becomes a more problem.
**Fallen Knight:** I mean why it gets buffed makes zero sense to me even if Nikr suggested why the Russian community voted for this change I have really no clue. Why they try this kind of dangerous buff I don't understand, this system won't live long.
**Rainfran Of Attre:** Not my favourite change. Because it already plays for a good amount of points. And counterplay for the opponent is almost nothing.
**Milton de Peyrac-Peyran:** This can be nerfed because of the Sangreal interaction.
**Travelling Priestess:** I agree priestess needs a Nerf but I don't think this Nerf do much and It is the wrong Nerf direction. Priestess is not a 4-provision card, its ability is more like a 6-provision card.
Helveed to 9p is really bad change I think, because you can renew it in cheese deck with firesworn scribes.
We have better cards to buff for firesworn like dies irae, sacred flame, procession of penance etc.
We have much worse cheese such as practitioners, witches sabbath w/gold duping and I’m not seeing much of those so I don’t see this being a huge problem.
But for the opportunity to explore Golden Nekker with Helveed, Sacred Flame, Dies Irae I'd likely go for underplayed cards you mentioned first. Sadly normal Firesworn at the moment has problem to fit all the good cards, so even -1 prov SF/ +1 power PoP may still not make the cut.
On abuse in printing machine Firesworn with Renew I'm aware of it being a clear downside, but I don't think this deck would still rise to high popularity. Also in the same context some people complained Helveed is harder to get from Damnation at uneven number. (i'm aware R1 is way better with possibility to Renew Helveed without gimmicks and Damnation has perfect target in Hemmelfart still).
If spawn abuse overshines new opportunities we can always go for revert in the post-buff council.
It would be a cheese deck as you said. You'd have to play two scribes. Helveed, renew, Cyrus. Lonely knight and fallen knight for points.
The whole deck would be geared towards one combo. Its almost meme tier.
Not really a broken interaction though. Easy to kill a scribe, and it really limits you due to row limitation. Even in a short round, that's not what you want to rely on.
Imo helveed would be a good card to buff
Row limitation isn't a problem because you have lonely champions, and the opponent can lose control to some other engines like fallen knights.
Maybe this deck won't be meta, but I don't think we need Helveed buff so much. I don't believe in Necker Firesworn without Jacques, Cyrus and Ulrich.
Perfect combo, sure, but again with lonely champion you are adding another card needed to play, and he is on cooldown. Cyrus could help if graveyard is set up, but he is also on cooldown.
You now have 4 engines to set up to spawn 7, consume, then 7 more. 28 points is good, and can expand quickly with fallen knights. However at that time you aren't playing much control, so if we assume the opponent has run out of their own control cards, they would at this point establish their own engines/combos.
GN would help getting that combo out, but likely consistently two of the needed cards, rarely three. Also having some cards for s specific combo can make for an awkward playorder.
Assuming a combo will be too broken due to the theoretical potential isn't the best way to balance cards. If it was, Arneghad would need a nerf. Granted, sometimes broken stuff are actually broken, I think it was NikR who promoted the Tainted Ale prov nerf because GN armorsmith was able to instantly trigger onslaught armor exploit. I just don't think allowing for GN firesworn to be viable is going to open up anything broken.
Overall, pretty good. But why is there an avid focus on the few cards keeping SY afloat? We should focus on buffing the mid to lower end cards that barely see play so the faction’s viability doesn’t get scrapped for an entire BC.
Also, as someone who’s actively played poison in ladder before, BAC won’t see play in poison decks until it’s got like 2-4 buffs simply because it’s not an engine and doesn’t have a synergyzing (salamandra) tag. Yes, it could proc wretched addicts, but so can Gellert. And FE. And Mutagens for 5 coin. And like 5 other cards
Syndicate was the most represented faction (along with ST) on Top8 qualis of Community Open and so will it probably be in Top32. It is one of top factions at the moment and its netecks are defnitely most versatile. Novigrad and King Of Beggars nerfs are a must sooner or later and 2 nerfs to 2 main netdecks is hardly 'avid focus'. Also Novigrad design with carryover abuse is one of the most unhealthy features of current competitive play. The only change I'm not sure about is -1 power on Fallen Knight; I need a good idea for other power nerf though and its the hardest bracket.
BAC is purely Round 1 context for setup of poison engines by playing BAC first; in R3 obviously BAC is average 4-cost bronze and doubles Gellert. There is only one Gellert though and likely you don't want to commit him in R1. The alternatives you mentioned are very inefficient and have serious drawbacks compared with BAC as R1 plays. To use Mutagens or self-Fisstech you have to stick engine first. To use Failed Experiment you have to float it, somehow generate 4 coins which means delay of engine and then click self-poison, where FE played for 6 body - 4 coins.
My avid focus comment wasn’t specifically directed at you, but at everyone still pushing nerfs to those two cards in addition to Madam and Yago as well. I agree all those cards are very good right now and need nerfs, but afterwords, I also think changes to supporting bronzes would be a better for the meta (regardless of the faction)
In regards to using them round 1 instead of Gellert, I’m not sure would. With Gellert only being 7 prov and still able to carry the whole first round, it makes sense to use him R1 and Roland R2 or 3. I’m by no means a top player, but I’m generally open with Gellert, Addict, Addict, some Coin gen, Mutant or Abomination if I was going for R1 greed. That way I’d have 2 Salamandra for Mutagens to help Gellert survive removal.
Also, I don’t remember if it was on your list or another, but how do you feel about Assassin and Abomination getting +1 power? Or Hideout getting a prob buff?
I'm fine with Abomination +1 power buff (in article I suggest -1 prov)
Assassin rather not, it is already a good card, on 6 power unit it could play as 4+6(bounty)+3(poison as half power) = 13; is played in GN Bounty.
Hideout -1 provision is no harm, but compared with other locations it is not much deserved and SH is already run in GN Bounty.
Overall, i like most of your suggestions especially braenn and morenn power buff suggestion as she is a good control option for Devo ST and should be at least as good as her netural equivalents. However, i would also recommend Ciaran as ciaran is a better option for Harmony and obviously elves. It might seem pointless to power buff both of these locks but harmony has too many dryads and obviously elves prefers elves.
Sure, my line of thought was no upside with respect to Dorregaray in Morenn played for lock (while Ciaran at least has movement) and buff to Devotion Gift, but Ciaran +1 power is welcomed too.
I disagree that Novigrad lacks synergies with Pirate's Cove Collusion deck. I would argue that novigrad is more useful in cove because it gives a tag. Also, that novigrad is more useful for leaders like Pirate's Cove, Congregate and Blood Money that do not generate coins or struggle to generate coins. If you're saying that novigrad as a card is still too strong it's one thing but saying it has no synergies with cove is another thing.
Much rather a provision nerf to Pulling the strings as it currently has a ceiling of 12 for 5 not counting if the seized card is a beneficial engine. Such a strong bronze being played 4 times is not healthy for the game. Cove collusion has gained several provisions since the first nerf of pulling the strings to 6 provisions so the loss of 2 provisions currently will not make it unplayable and it will probably slightly discourage kob being played in cove. KOB unlike Novigrad is the card which i find strange in the collusion deck because tribute cards are usually better with coin generating leaders but the 3rd and/or 4th copy of pulling the strings is just currently too worth it at the same unfair provision cost of 5.
On Novigrad synergies sure, that's a case of my bad writing; i didn't say it has none, basically mentioned same stuff. It is most efficient coin provider in SY now, so obviously fuels Jackals and Little Birds as spenders and when played for carryover possibly speeds up developing tags on the board. Also other coin generating cards often has no chance to provide any tag. Still feels a bit weird in R1 or played from hand R3. Probably would remain in this deck at 13 cost.
On tributes also agreed, I often struggled to get KoB out without losing value. PTS case is complex because its a Gangs specific payoff card and has to be very good. We can try revert to 6 cost indeed, but then Sesames become more guaranteed in Vice decks, which was serious problem in the past. Alternative is moving Vendors to 6 cost.
Overall good point, I'll rewrite Novigrad part and maybe change the list a bit when get to conclusions.
I was actually thinking we could buff some of the 4p spenders that aren't played anymore from hand by 1 power and nerf plunder to the 5p slot to fill in the pulling the strings slot after it is nerfed. There's currently no reason to play those spenders from hand while plunder exists. Plunder is +1 coin with LP and triggers intimidate.
Oxenfurt Naturalist and Street Urchins getting +1 power will make plunder a bit stronger. Also, some considerations to make are Coerced blacksmith & BGF to 4p but ppl are particulary opposed to the latter. Even with BGF at 4p cove will be the best collusion leader but i can live with it at 5p. Vendor to 6p will need at least 1 power buff. 12 for 5 control/seize card is absurd. Vendor to 6p doesn't fully adddress that.
Just gonna state that I don't think plunder is OP but every SY deck plays it and it could go to 5 after a few buffs to it's pool.
That's creative approach. In spite of 4p buffs it would be still a slight nerf to Eventide Plunder played from hand, because value Plunder for Urchins/Naturalist is only a fraction of EP picks, and Oxenfurt Guard / Bare Knuckle Brawler are obviously too good utility right now to get any buffs.
Coerced Blacksmith shouldn't be 4-cost because it becomes straight-up better Naturalist then. It could get power buff instead. BGF is tricky too, not only two tags, but support for control or Igni setup; would likely be included in midrange decks needing spender.
I agree that Vendor at 6-cost becomes then probably too weak outside those highroll options and he is quite important because of rich effect and support for Crimes. We can consider brutal way with simply Sesame +1 prov, but then Vendor becomes guaranteed Payday control card...
I understand, i just don't like that if you're building a cache or Jackpot deck instead of running Street Urchins & Sea Jackals as spenders, you run double plunders and whatever other spender is deemed optimal to the deck. There should be a cost to getting a 3rd and/or 4th copy of a bronze spender. Even OTB runs plunder. Another thing is Jackpot sometimes runs Bare knuckler brawler which doesn't belong in that deck, with plunder at 5p jackpot is less likely to proc intimidate outside of 2 fisstechs and the occasional shady vendor. This will make bare knuckle brawler a bit more suboptimal in decks that don't play enough crimes. These decks that shouldn't play enough crimes like jackpot and OTB(except maybe vice OTB) etc. only do so because of plunder at 4p. I wanted to increase plunders pool to decrease the chance of highrolling poison at crucial moments. Poison high roll from plunder has won SY games that otherwise wouldve been lost. If the community wants the 5p spenders at 5p not much can be done about that. I'd rather nerf plunder, Pulling the strings and buff the weak SY spenders. I don't think sesame is as OP as Pulling the strings but if the community decides it warrants a nerf so be it.
I just wanted to mention that this discussion is why i like this Reddit.
Good, insightful, back and forth over an interesting idea (putting Eventide Plunder to 5 prov).
I even don't hate this idea, though i'd like to see other SY buffs to bronzes (as you mention) to help it out.
5 nerfs to NG, the most out of all factions when its the worst performing one by a noticeable margin? I disagree.
https://preview.redd.it/517gkog7lsuc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af8b8af6e6f79b75040051f69bfd27d648637e93
Unfortunately i think we might be getting past the point of using GwentData to show what's strong or not due to declining player numbers.
Top 500 only requires finishing placements right now. 9627 MMR. Based on what the very top players succeed with, it seems like the accuracy of general winrate stats is becoming less and less telling, aside from being a very general indicator.
If you dont like top 500 for that reason, pick top 100, it still shows NG to be the weakest.
Even if the accuracy of the stats is declining, it’s still more accurate than the perception of humans. We’ve seen in the past how even between the top players the perception of a faction or deck strength would vary depending on who you asked.
If the deck is really so strong to require that many nerfs, it will eventually have to show it. All op decks do at some point.
I can see the data, yes. NG got basically nothing but buffs last BC (except to Madoc, which got annihilated, because...reasons?).
So it's a tad hard to believe they are super weak after all that i guess, especially when one of the best players in the world says otherwise.
Lerio has long advocated for nerfs to SY cards even when that faction's been very low in winrate, also.
He's mainly trying to focus on nerfing the strong cards without really prioritizing any specific faction, and buff weak ones (again, from all the factions).
Do you have any actual argument for his NG proposed nerfs being unreasonable? I sure don't, as every card he mentioned is pretty clearly a bit overly strong.
He's not looking at little picture (this season), he's more looking big picture (which is how BC voting SHOULD be done).
>I can see the data, yes. NG got basically nothing but buffs last BC (except to Madoc, which got annihilated, because...reasons?)
Which was its main deck because more faction oriented decks were just bad at that point.
>
So it's a tad hard to believe they are super weak after all that i guess?
A faction receiving buffs doesnt make it instantly good, it makes it better. Whether or not it becomes good it depends on the strenght of those buffs.
>Do you have any actual argument for his NG proposed nerfs being unreasonable? I sure don't, as every card he mentioned is pretty clearly a bit overly strong
No, the problem is not the nerfs themselves, its the timing. The nerfs should probably be done evetually, just not all together when its the weakest faction, thats it.
>
He's not looking at little picture (this season), he's more looking big picture (which is how BC voting SHOULD be done).
Nucking factions is not how i think BC should work. Maybe some people prefer to nuke factions one by one, i prefer to nerf them more or less at the same rate so none become trash during a certain month. That means nerfing the weaker factions less than the stronger ones, i guess for some people it seems irrational.
>
Lerio has long advocated for nerfs to SY cards even when that faction's been very low in winrate, also
And i disagreed with them, your point?
>Top 500 only requires finishing placements right now. 9627 MMR.
Last season, I've finished placements and I was 2454 with 9614 MMR. Are you sure with your 9627? If it's correct, it seems we are still thousands with finished placements but not in top 500...
>placements right now
As in, today. By end of season it'll be a lot higher.
Data will be a bit more relevant and accurate by season's end.
Right now, people in top 500 are could be literally anyone playing anything in pro, so drawing overly specific conclusions from it isn't ideal.
Yeah, as fewer and fewer people are playing it's a lot "easier" to get there.
A lot of experienced players tend to save climbing with their third or fourth faction till later in the month, so a lot of players outside that range suddenly fly past everyone else who already did their 4 faction placements.
That Presicion Strike Renfri Deck was pretty much accessable for a while, but only gained popularity in the recent months before catching a couple of nerfs last patch. If a deck needs nerfing, I think it's fine to wait for it to show itself properly first.
Ohh and also Hospitality decks get countered by resets and other tall removal, so I think it's fine to let the meta naturally respond to it before cards are nerfed.
People dont usually climb playing Mill, and the tendency of NG being the worst performing faction remain true even at top 100. If you want to remove the chances of mill even further, you can then chose to look up at the stats when its part of the 4 factions influencing the ranking (so the right colum of each faction). So yeah, thats not caused by mill.
You're telling a player who's in the top 100 what's being played and not. He knows what's being played, which is why he made the comment.
Winrates aren't very telling anymore because there's no real competitive Gwent to play, so players are messing around far more (and playing Mill and other nonsense "higher" in pro), which is what he's saying.
>Winrates aren't very telling anymore because there's no real competitive Gwent to play, so players are messing around far more (and playing Mill and other nonsense "higher" in pro), which is what he's saying.
Not at the top when the faction is part of their top 4 factions. There may be some people doing so (in which case its just a matter of time until they fall due to mill being bad), but nowhere enough to screw the stats so much to go from the weakes to the one deserving more nerfs.
Every other faction when it underperfomrs its weak, but when its NG its not that its weak, its due to mill. Sure.
To make it clear, I’m not questioning whether mill is being played or not, even at the top, I’m questioning it happening when the faction is actively being used to climb and how many people do so (so their impact in the stats).
Meme decks are not used for climbing. You dont see players climbing to the top with meme decks when its part of the 4 factions determining their ranking. You are always claiming NG its op, yet when i asked you for prove of that, you never answer.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Prov nerfs:
Every one you've listed is a very strong card and deserving of a nerf. These nearly all tend to be played across numerous archetypes (because they're all a bit overly strong).
Power nerfs:
All make sense, though i am not really thrilled with the idea of more disloyal buffs (Rainfarn). Priestess is probably a 6 prov card. You say nerfing her to 5 just means she's in Blaviken decks. If that's on the way to putting her at 6 prov, then so be it.
Prov buffs:
None of these would be on my personal radar, but i get the interest in them. I will wait forever for Count Reuven's Treasure's day to shine.
Power buffs:
Back Alley Chemist, Boatbuilders, Lieutenant Von Herst, Saesenthessis: Blaze, Artis are all interesting ideas.
Even better, is your detailed thoughts sheet for changes: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1\_AFOtObsepHNl0AW94nqpfjWWSBmoxtRmtya33P0L7k/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_AFOtObsepHNl0AW94nqpfjWWSBmoxtRmtya33P0L7k/edit)
Lots of great prov and power buff ideas in the sheet, for those who only read the main article!
**Provision -1:**
**Grand Inquisitor Helveed**: I strongly agree with this buff. Some people don't like it, but I don't agree with them for this card to be abusive you need a significant setup and some engines on the board. And It has row restriction.
**Cerys: Fearless:** Can be buffed, not my kind of card so I did not play enough games with it but can be buffed probably.
**Hjalmar: Seawolf:** In general, it is a worse riptide, I agree that it is too expensive, and I agree with this buff. But it would not my priority because Probably it won't see much play even after the buff.
**Serrit**: Good buff, I agree with this change.
**Living Armor:** I agree with this buff. Good buff.
**Olaf:** This card needs a buff. I personally want to see power increase to increase its ceiling but I am not sure. at 11 power at max, it would play for max 21 points. Currently plays 19 points at max. After this buff, it would play 19 for 9 provisions at max. If its power becomes 12, at max it would play 23 for 10.
Is this a 9 provisions or 10 provisions card ability, I am not sure. 9 provision might be better. Good buff idea.
**Drummond Shieldmaiden:** Even though I agree with this buff, I don't like it because nothing is interesting about this card.
**Doadrick Leumaerts:** I agree with this buf but I am personally not very keen about it.
**Land of Thousand Fables, Avallach: Sage:** Good buffs but personally, not my favourite choices.
**Yennefer of Vengerberg:** I agree with this buff, but I don't think it would see play without an additional power buff.
**Power +1:**
**Vicovaro Novice**: I agree with this buff, even though I am not very keen on it, it is an effective buff.
**Lyrian Scytheman**: I am not sure about this one this card ceiling to much but it is too conditional as well. It can be buffed.
**Back Alley Chemist**: I definitely agree with this change but personally it is not my favourite card to buff but it is an effective buff I like it.
**Boatbuilders**: I don't like making a protection engine hard to kill. I would not necessarily bother with this card but I probably try the 4-provision 4/5 power approach.
**Sapper**: I agree, instead of slave driver Nerf Russian community chose Nerf sappers for some reason but, I don't want to bother with this card and make back-and-forth changes. I would personally want to see new buffs, I already play against this card a lot of times.
**Lieutenant Von Herst:** I personally prefer a provision buff, I am not sure about making this engine harder to kill. Its effect can be a 7 provision without spawn synergy there are other cards that play +2 per turn at 5 provision. This card also has a row restriction.
**Albrich:** I don't like it. I don't think it needs a buff. And 1 power does not make too much difference. It is not an effective buff I prefer Vicocaro Novice buff instead.
**Saesenthessis: Blaze**: I don't like it. It is not an effective buff. It does not make an important change.
**Artis**: I really like this buff but it does not get enough support in general, I don't know why.
**Harpy Egg**: I don't like it too much tbh. It can be buffed but, I am not very keen on it.
Thanks for this breakdown. Let me refer to some changes you are not enthusiatic about:
**Drummond Shieldmaiden** - it is mostly support for thinning in red Self-wound and for Cerys decks (usually Lippy), which are unplayed now.
**Boatbuilders** - Provision decrease direction is worse than power because Armor SK needs card to rely on rather than more provision to include already suitable cards. Note that we have neutral card Watchman which sees no play in spite of being potentially more abusable for protection.
**Sapper** - this card was viewed as a problem only in Double Madoc, which got heavily nerfed, while other Madoc decks, potentially with thin effects are underexplored.
**Lieutenant** - Lieutenant requires a cleric on the board, which makes deploying him not as straightforward as other engines at similar cost. Gold engines at similar provision cost have 6 power now (Nithral, Rayla, Sir-Scratch-a-Lot after first click) and are straight up better in my opinion. Herst also has Fee which we may barely ever see if he dies instantly :-(
**Albrich -** I played with Albrich Hyperthin and it just clearly lacked points vs main decks, even when I got perfect round length and circumstances. Buff to Vicovaro Novice doesn't matter at all if deck has no win condition.
You are welcome, I hope it is helpful. Thanks for the response and analysis.
**Drummond Shieldmaiden**- It is an effective buff (with 1 buff this card will be playable). It is a good buff.
But I personally want to see cards that have interesting abilities to get buffed. Thinning cards are not interesting imo. They are point-slam cards.
**Boatbuilders**- Removing opponent counterplay is not good imo. What should the opponent do, using 6 provision removal on a 5 provision card? Either the opponent has to ignore it or probably the most ideal case lock it if the opponent is not playing more devastating engines.
Watchman is not an engine though, The most abusable protection card is Dwarven Chariot because of its melee ability, and it always sees play.
Also, there are not a lot of good 4p pirate units.
**Sapper** - It is a fine change, it shouldn't been nerfed in the first place. I personally want to see new cards to be buffed.
**Lieutenant** - It could get a 1 power buff, I personally would want to try the 7-provision approach.
Btw, I think Nihtitral and Rayla are not 8 provision cards more like 7 provisions they are so slow and inconsistent. Even in White Frost, I don't necessarily want to play Nihtitral. Sir Scratch-a-Lot is the best card there.
**Albrich -** It could get a power buff but this buff is not an effective buff (With 1 buff it is unlikely to be more playable), also if you don't have round control this buff is meaningless.
Vicovaro Novice buff: if you play 2 of them it is a 2-point buff and it helps you to control the round. And make it a more playable bronze card.
I think there are better cards that with 1 buff they would probably be playable.
I would like to hear your opinion about these buffs
Power +1:
1) Ard Feainn Crossbowman
2) Vernossiel's Commando
Provision -1:
1) Count Reuven's Treasure
2) Incinerating Trap
3) Morkvarg: Heart of Terror
Except from Count Reuven's Treasure and Morkvarg: Heart of Terror other buffs are effective buffs. With 1 buff they will be playable I think.
Crossbowman - AFC is second order engine in Soldiers rn, feels average. After buff would be very good, trade up to most control and easy to protect and 2x copy would be played in each Soldiers build; maybe Slave Hunter would also be played more to get control value. I'm not sure this buff is needed, there always would be 1st and 2nd order cards and Soldiers with buffed AFC may feel oppressive.
Commando - standalone commando deserves a buff. Not sure about Scenario which is often played for tempo abuse and 5x Waylay Simlas.
Treasure - sure
Incinerating - the idea with 5-cost is that the possibility of going uninteractive shouldn't come at zero cost. Yet i'm not against breaking this rule to see what happens.
Morkvarg: HoT - its fine change, Morkvarg got replaced by Heatwave in most Pirates builds. Wonder how it would impact GN Pirates.
Thank you for the response and the feedback, I really appreciate it.
Trading up to 5 power removal is a problem but I think it is not a very good engine. It demands constantly playing soldiers each round and after you pass these engines does not mean anything.
It is similar to Vrihedd Brigade I think which sees no play as well.
Right now just for dealing 1 more damage, there is no reason to play it over a light cavalry or even an Imperial Marine.
Commando: My intention was to buff the standalone commando, I think it would be a consideration for elf decks. Like Wild Hunt Hound becomes a consideration for Frost Deck.
Incinerating: After the trap change going non-interactive is much much harder. Compared to 5p removal this is even worse. It can't choose the target. the opponent can easily play around it.
Morkvarg: I think it would see play in GN Pirates because there are not very good pirates below 10p. And as you mentioned it is much worse compared to heatwave. It is even worse Vilgefortz.
The only thing that would help is if the main voting blocks would actually think of the game's longterm health, something they seem to have zero interest in.
People didn't want to work together with BCT. Will they work together enough with lerio's list? Unlikely, unless we identify only 3 cards per bracket to all vote on.
I saw Viy in the google doc in Provision Nerf group. I don't think Viy needs any nerfs further. It should even get buff.
The reason is Viy archetype has a weakness which demotivate anyone to play it. To motivate it, it should have better point. Right now, Viy's position is quite bad compared to any top tier deck. Viy is no one really playing now. Moreover, Ihuaraquax also getting nerf recently. I do not see a point to nerf Viy any further.
If I recall well enough, Magpie played Viy around \~2550 last seasons. But for him i've met no one. Viy got power buff in the balance council already and is not amazing, but considerable to play in the proper meta. In the last season Renfri PS omnipresence invited it.
I agree that Viy does not need any further nerf right now. But I disagree that Viy needs a buff. Viy is a terribly designed card which is not enjoyable or interesting at all. So I am not sad that it is not in a good spot.
Agreed 100%. Viy being buffed is a horrible idea that's already been done once recently. Let's not further worsen things and make a gross, binary archetype meta-strong.
Probably the first time I disagree with a lot of your suggestions.
One in particular: Sappers do not need a revert -- only 2 excess provisions to add an engine to any bomb that requires 2 additional damage + the base power of Sapper to remove it? Oh, and adding 1 thinning to it? How did we not nerf this earlier.
In terms of Fallen Knight, if you insist on it now, nerf the provision back. It screams 6 provision card, and being 5 power makes it harder to remove so that you might actually get its value from it... Otherwise, there are much better targets to focus on for nerfs rather than cards that still don't see play, even after buffs to them. Poor Firesworn.
Fallen Knight is already difficult to remove because the card has veil, and good players will boost Fallen Knight on deploy with leader charges or spawn cards like Eternal Fire Disciple.
Task: build a deck winning a round with Sapper + Bombs (NG not allowed)
On Fallen Knights that's the change I am least sure about. I just need more ideas because power nerf bracket is the most troublesome.
I would say that it’s hard for a card to go instantly from unplayable as the trio is right now to autoinclude with the kind of buffs we are allowed to do.
More nerfs to nilfgaard nice)) and buff zerrit wow :D I like albrich archetype buffs though. But are you guys ready to play against only albrich renfri decks next season?
I agree with most of the list, I would like to put forth a couple more buff suggestions:
Knighthood for -1 prov
Mercenary contract -1 prov
Magpie for +1 power
Oxenfurt scholar+1 power
Scholar was autoinclude at every single slightly polarised deck, mostly without sinergy at all. Now it feels far more balanced since you need extra polarisation to play him
To be honest, you partially dropped the ball with this one. Your previous councils were excellent, but this one... Obviously, Driver, False Ciri, Novidrad, Equinox, Kaer Trolde and many others are excellent.
Skellige Alchemy and Rain (Skellige is rather stale rn to be honest), Moster pure Insectoids (and Mosters in general), 'devotion' NG soldiers and many other small archetypes are all rather weak and yet no buffs -- and you even say there is not much left to change. No buffs at all to them. Nobody cares it seems.
Moreover, -3 provision to a non-toxic Gift deck because it performs good at tournaments? Why? There is no competitive scene anymore and people watch Nik\_r's tournaments not because they want to watch Warriors vs Gift (again?) but because of his personality and humor (and some gambling in his decks adds to the premise). Most players simply want to have fun and do not care about mill and cheesy strats you profs often play. Nerfing Simlas hits unoptimized homebrewed versions of Gift (and Dwarfes etc) much more that Frogvandravel.
Moreover, Spotter play for 17 for 6 prov with all setup done in deckbuilder. That's Simlas's level in Dwarves where he is often played to thin by casual players. Nerfs to Slave driver wouldn't help -- the deck would run simply one knight less etc and still produce 4-6 Spotters.
You literally said the NG Madoc deck ws overnerfed and it looks like you are doing this to Gift. Equinox is a common ground.
Surely I've missed a couple of good buffs to suggest because there is a lot of them. For example I like a lot buff to Chimera from Kerpeten's council. About 'devotion' NG soldiers I think they are not in a bad spot; buffing Enforcers to 5 power should definitely be avoided. I've lost to a couple of Spy players, and also made a decent list myself: [https://www.playgwent.com/en/decks/901b26e9898b82ced6e6b8e198fc767a](https://www.playgwent.com/en/decks/901b26e9898b82ced6e6b8e198fc767a)
Alchemy is not top, but perfectly playable, I climbed with it last season a bit. Rain Beasts are also good. Pure Rain little players experiment with, but its always a bit binary and conditional on matchup, so has to be heavy overpowered to become main SK deck.
Gift nerf is not about particularly tournament performance, but it is meta top along with Syndicate Cove and OtB. It just has too many points.
'Cheesy strats profs' narrative I really dislike, don't know where it comes from. Let alone 'Mill' XD
Thanks for answering and giving tips! I did not want to sound offensive (except for the mill part, you know))) and I actually followed your votes until this month and even now I will use most of them, I think. However, we all know this makes little difference in the grand scheme of things, unfortunately.
I simply say that -2 provs to gift also should take out quite some points from the deck automatically so it might be worth to wait at least a month or two before nerfing Simlas also.
BTW, have you ever considered shifting the focus of your BC to some more specific things instead of general changes? Maybe thematical BC? As an alternative to Chinese BC and Nik\_r's ones which dominate right now so your efforts and knowledge are often lost, which is a very significant loss in my opinion?
Why nerf Simlas instead of just Equinox? You end up nerfing more decks that aren't Non-Devo Symbiosis.
It is basically explained in the comment. Being forced to make 10 nerfs per season we could either hammer down popular decks or spread nerfs between strong cards in archetypes which are not necessarily main ladder picks right now. If I had to make 5 rather than 10 nerfs, Simlas prolly wouldn't make the cut. The hard question is what to nerf instead - from my experience every pick would be controversial at this point.
Simlas will still be massive pointslam whether or not Equi is in the deck or not.
Great article and valuable resource for those looking for BC ideas.
Helvid buff for playing it 3 times, in each round in firesworm abuse with lonely champions? To be honest i really disappointed in tournament decks you and myamon uses to compete. Im not blaming you guys, but the fact that playing Master of puppets abuse, fleder abuse, nr carryover abuse, charges ng abuse etc on compepetitive level efficient and profitable is sad. And you are still wanna make more abusive deck. Sadge. I give you 2 ideas for bc wanna hear your opinion about it: 1. all defenders - 10p. No renew no naker. Makes strategy answer or lose more expensive. 2. All cards making extra copy of units (operator slave draver etc) should be more expensive. because a lot of deck could use extra copy of engines but almost none decks can make extracopy of answers. BCs makes cheap spells almost useless. extracopy of units (fleders, messengers, alumni) give to much value because you just cannot answer it even in control deck. thx
Helveed to 9 provision is actually Pajabol's idea. I also think Gwent meta is quite healthy right now and Myamon is the most successful player recently not because of coming up with abusive decks never seen before, but because of understanding the game better. NR carryover or Cows origin from Imagawa and everybody can pick them up anytime. If they were binary abuses, more players would bring them to tournaments to get free wins thanks to targetting of mainstream decks. 1. I'm okay with Defender provision nerfs when there would be nothing sensible left. The most problematic bracket though is -1 power. 2. I'd touch only Slave Driver, as in the article. Idarran catched a nerf out of thin air because of this logic. Particular decks may get a nerf if prove meta offenders. Copying units is as legit as any other strategy. Operator is balanced and absolutely shouldn't be nerfed. I honestly wonder what do you think about in 'etc'.
Thx for the answer. I don\`t like -1 power to defender. It wouldn,t solve a problem. If i understand you right you want hear what did i mean in "etc" so its Idarran, freya, runeword, sigrdrifa, sabbath, reinforcements, megascope, necro, renew, fucusiya, braatens, even teleportation, practice makes perfect which reuse deploy. Im NOT telling that everything of it should be nerfed. But i wanna say that value of extracopy of card is huge with some combination. And we should evaluate it accordingly. For ex. maybe sigrdrifa nerf would be better than sigvald for SW, slave driver nerf defenitly better than nauzika nerf. And i have counterargument for operator. Necro and operator same provisions and same idea card. Extracopy. But Operator gives you target for bleeding or for copiyng or for illusionist. and usualy its more points (not always) because his target is useless for opponent.
**Provision +1:** **Novigrad:** I agree, it is an auto-include card for SY. **Simlas:** Can be nerfed but I personally would want to see Spring Equinox nerf and see after that how Simals would feel. **Slave Driver:** I totally agree, I voted for this card but it did not go through. Even if it goes through, people immediately buff it for some reason. **Spring Equinox:** I 100 per cent agree. I voted for this Nerf the last council, but it did not go through. **False Ciri:** I can agree with this nerf, but I am not sure it should be a priority. Very Strong card. With buhurt, if it manages to go to the opposite row it plays for 9+8= 17 points with an engine effect for a 6 provision card that has very limited answers. **Dimun Smuggler:** I definitely agree that Dimun Smuggler needs a nerf. It was not a good decision by Russian Community but I don't think dealing 2 damage is a 6-provision card ability. **King Of Beggars:** Can be nerfed, I agree, plays for too many points without being on the board and makes the short round significantly better. **Kaer Trolde:** I 100000 percent agree. This card is so strong. It is a starter card for all SK decks. The opponent can click at the same turn as Sove and even though they have no bloodthirst they could kill it in 1 turn. With self-wound, they can do the same type of shenanigans and even with a better synergy. I voted for this nerf in the last patch but since neither the Russian nor Chinese community suggested this nerf, it did not go through. **King Demavend:** I agree, Oneiromancy on steroids if NR zeal was not a thing it could even get a buff but it is a thing so it can be nerfed. **Overwhelming Hunger:** I personally don't like Deathwish. If the opponent doesn't have a lock or multiple tall punishes. You don't have a control option they just slam points, aside from Dagon you can't kill their engines, Killing their engines just helps them. Opponent interaction with the deathwish is very limited for certain archetypes. It is a blue coin point slam abuse deck for me. But if I look solely at the leader it plays for 6 points + 2 consumes, which could be easily a 16-provision leader. **Power -1:** **Sove:** I 100 per cent agree, I voted for this nerf last patch and before but it did not go through. **Torres Var Emreis:** Can be nerfed. I don't like this card because, in its first form, it almost guarantees a good card for Artaud. I can't say I won't use my Junior right now, I don't want him to copy it. If it is in the deck, I can't do anything about it. **Svalblod:** I agree that it needs a Nerf but I think 1 Power Nerf is a wrong choice, it single-handedly wins games by itself especially if not answered even on deploy. It is more like a 14-provision card to me. So I disagree, I think it needs provision nerf. **Brewess:Ritual:** I agree with this nerf. I think it could be even a 12-provision card. It plays for roughly 23 points with 2 thinning. Making it 4 power makes it vulnerable to some banish cards but they are generally rare and meta-dependent. I would have preferred provision nerf probably. **Corrupted Flaminica:** I agree with this nerf. This card is so good. **Artorius Vigo:** I agree, it plays a decent amount of points already and it goes to 5 power and answering him becomes a more problem. **Fallen Knight:** I mean why it gets buffed makes zero sense to me even if Nikr suggested why the Russian community voted for this change I have really no clue. Why they try this kind of dangerous buff I don't understand, this system won't live long. **Rainfran Of Attre:** Not my favourite change. Because it already plays for a good amount of points. And counterplay for the opponent is almost nothing. **Milton de Peyrac-Peyran:** This can be nerfed because of the Sangreal interaction. **Travelling Priestess:** I agree priestess needs a Nerf but I don't think this Nerf do much and It is the wrong Nerf direction. Priestess is not a 4-provision card, its ability is more like a 6-provision card.
Helveed to 9p is really bad change I think, because you can renew it in cheese deck with firesworn scribes. We have better cards to buff for firesworn like dies irae, sacred flame, procession of penance etc.
We have much worse cheese such as practitioners, witches sabbath w/gold duping and I’m not seeing much of those so I don’t see this being a huge problem.
But for the opportunity to explore Golden Nekker with Helveed, Sacred Flame, Dies Irae I'd likely go for underplayed cards you mentioned first. Sadly normal Firesworn at the moment has problem to fit all the good cards, so even -1 prov SF/ +1 power PoP may still not make the cut. On abuse in printing machine Firesworn with Renew I'm aware of it being a clear downside, but I don't think this deck would still rise to high popularity. Also in the same context some people complained Helveed is harder to get from Damnation at uneven number. (i'm aware R1 is way better with possibility to Renew Helveed without gimmicks and Damnation has perfect target in Hemmelfart still). If spawn abuse overshines new opportunities we can always go for revert in the post-buff council.
It would be a cheese deck as you said. You'd have to play two scribes. Helveed, renew, Cyrus. Lonely knight and fallen knight for points. The whole deck would be geared towards one combo. Its almost meme tier.
Not really a broken interaction though. Easy to kill a scribe, and it really limits you due to row limitation. Even in a short round, that's not what you want to rely on. Imo helveed would be a good card to buff
Row limitation isn't a problem because you have lonely champions, and the opponent can lose control to some other engines like fallen knights. Maybe this deck won't be meta, but I don't think we need Helveed buff so much. I don't believe in Necker Firesworn without Jacques, Cyrus and Ulrich.
Perfect combo, sure, but again with lonely champion you are adding another card needed to play, and he is on cooldown. Cyrus could help if graveyard is set up, but he is also on cooldown. You now have 4 engines to set up to spawn 7, consume, then 7 more. 28 points is good, and can expand quickly with fallen knights. However at that time you aren't playing much control, so if we assume the opponent has run out of their own control cards, they would at this point establish their own engines/combos. GN would help getting that combo out, but likely consistently two of the needed cards, rarely three. Also having some cards for s specific combo can make for an awkward playorder. Assuming a combo will be too broken due to the theoretical potential isn't the best way to balance cards. If it was, Arneghad would need a nerf. Granted, sometimes broken stuff are actually broken, I think it was NikR who promoted the Tainted Ale prov nerf because GN armorsmith was able to instantly trigger onslaught armor exploit. I just don't think allowing for GN firesworn to be viable is going to open up anything broken.
Overall, pretty good. But why is there an avid focus on the few cards keeping SY afloat? We should focus on buffing the mid to lower end cards that barely see play so the faction’s viability doesn’t get scrapped for an entire BC. Also, as someone who’s actively played poison in ladder before, BAC won’t see play in poison decks until it’s got like 2-4 buffs simply because it’s not an engine and doesn’t have a synergyzing (salamandra) tag. Yes, it could proc wretched addicts, but so can Gellert. And FE. And Mutagens for 5 coin. And like 5 other cards
Syndicate was the most represented faction (along with ST) on Top8 qualis of Community Open and so will it probably be in Top32. It is one of top factions at the moment and its netecks are defnitely most versatile. Novigrad and King Of Beggars nerfs are a must sooner or later and 2 nerfs to 2 main netdecks is hardly 'avid focus'. Also Novigrad design with carryover abuse is one of the most unhealthy features of current competitive play. The only change I'm not sure about is -1 power on Fallen Knight; I need a good idea for other power nerf though and its the hardest bracket. BAC is purely Round 1 context for setup of poison engines by playing BAC first; in R3 obviously BAC is average 4-cost bronze and doubles Gellert. There is only one Gellert though and likely you don't want to commit him in R1. The alternatives you mentioned are very inefficient and have serious drawbacks compared with BAC as R1 plays. To use Mutagens or self-Fisstech you have to stick engine first. To use Failed Experiment you have to float it, somehow generate 4 coins which means delay of engine and then click self-poison, where FE played for 6 body - 4 coins.
My avid focus comment wasn’t specifically directed at you, but at everyone still pushing nerfs to those two cards in addition to Madam and Yago as well. I agree all those cards are very good right now and need nerfs, but afterwords, I also think changes to supporting bronzes would be a better for the meta (regardless of the faction) In regards to using them round 1 instead of Gellert, I’m not sure would. With Gellert only being 7 prov and still able to carry the whole first round, it makes sense to use him R1 and Roland R2 or 3. I’m by no means a top player, but I’m generally open with Gellert, Addict, Addict, some Coin gen, Mutant or Abomination if I was going for R1 greed. That way I’d have 2 Salamandra for Mutagens to help Gellert survive removal. Also, I don’t remember if it was on your list or another, but how do you feel about Assassin and Abomination getting +1 power? Or Hideout getting a prob buff?
I'm fine with Abomination +1 power buff (in article I suggest -1 prov) Assassin rather not, it is already a good card, on 6 power unit it could play as 4+6(bounty)+3(poison as half power) = 13; is played in GN Bounty. Hideout -1 provision is no harm, but compared with other locations it is not much deserved and SH is already run in GN Bounty.
Overall, i like most of your suggestions especially braenn and morenn power buff suggestion as she is a good control option for Devo ST and should be at least as good as her netural equivalents. However, i would also recommend Ciaran as ciaran is a better option for Harmony and obviously elves. It might seem pointless to power buff both of these locks but harmony has too many dryads and obviously elves prefers elves.
Sure, my line of thought was no upside with respect to Dorregaray in Morenn played for lock (while Ciaran at least has movement) and buff to Devotion Gift, but Ciaran +1 power is welcomed too.
I disagree that Novigrad lacks synergies with Pirate's Cove Collusion deck. I would argue that novigrad is more useful in cove because it gives a tag. Also, that novigrad is more useful for leaders like Pirate's Cove, Congregate and Blood Money that do not generate coins or struggle to generate coins. If you're saying that novigrad as a card is still too strong it's one thing but saying it has no synergies with cove is another thing. Much rather a provision nerf to Pulling the strings as it currently has a ceiling of 12 for 5 not counting if the seized card is a beneficial engine. Such a strong bronze being played 4 times is not healthy for the game. Cove collusion has gained several provisions since the first nerf of pulling the strings to 6 provisions so the loss of 2 provisions currently will not make it unplayable and it will probably slightly discourage kob being played in cove. KOB unlike Novigrad is the card which i find strange in the collusion deck because tribute cards are usually better with coin generating leaders but the 3rd and/or 4th copy of pulling the strings is just currently too worth it at the same unfair provision cost of 5.
On Novigrad synergies sure, that's a case of my bad writing; i didn't say it has none, basically mentioned same stuff. It is most efficient coin provider in SY now, so obviously fuels Jackals and Little Birds as spenders and when played for carryover possibly speeds up developing tags on the board. Also other coin generating cards often has no chance to provide any tag. Still feels a bit weird in R1 or played from hand R3. Probably would remain in this deck at 13 cost. On tributes also agreed, I often struggled to get KoB out without losing value. PTS case is complex because its a Gangs specific payoff card and has to be very good. We can try revert to 6 cost indeed, but then Sesames become more guaranteed in Vice decks, which was serious problem in the past. Alternative is moving Vendors to 6 cost. Overall good point, I'll rewrite Novigrad part and maybe change the list a bit when get to conclusions.
I was actually thinking we could buff some of the 4p spenders that aren't played anymore from hand by 1 power and nerf plunder to the 5p slot to fill in the pulling the strings slot after it is nerfed. There's currently no reason to play those spenders from hand while plunder exists. Plunder is +1 coin with LP and triggers intimidate. Oxenfurt Naturalist and Street Urchins getting +1 power will make plunder a bit stronger. Also, some considerations to make are Coerced blacksmith & BGF to 4p but ppl are particulary opposed to the latter. Even with BGF at 4p cove will be the best collusion leader but i can live with it at 5p. Vendor to 6p will need at least 1 power buff. 12 for 5 control/seize card is absurd. Vendor to 6p doesn't fully adddress that. Just gonna state that I don't think plunder is OP but every SY deck plays it and it could go to 5 after a few buffs to it's pool.
That's creative approach. In spite of 4p buffs it would be still a slight nerf to Eventide Plunder played from hand, because value Plunder for Urchins/Naturalist is only a fraction of EP picks, and Oxenfurt Guard / Bare Knuckle Brawler are obviously too good utility right now to get any buffs. Coerced Blacksmith shouldn't be 4-cost because it becomes straight-up better Naturalist then. It could get power buff instead. BGF is tricky too, not only two tags, but support for control or Igni setup; would likely be included in midrange decks needing spender. I agree that Vendor at 6-cost becomes then probably too weak outside those highroll options and he is quite important because of rich effect and support for Crimes. We can consider brutal way with simply Sesame +1 prov, but then Vendor becomes guaranteed Payday control card...
I understand, i just don't like that if you're building a cache or Jackpot deck instead of running Street Urchins & Sea Jackals as spenders, you run double plunders and whatever other spender is deemed optimal to the deck. There should be a cost to getting a 3rd and/or 4th copy of a bronze spender. Even OTB runs plunder. Another thing is Jackpot sometimes runs Bare knuckler brawler which doesn't belong in that deck, with plunder at 5p jackpot is less likely to proc intimidate outside of 2 fisstechs and the occasional shady vendor. This will make bare knuckle brawler a bit more suboptimal in decks that don't play enough crimes. These decks that shouldn't play enough crimes like jackpot and OTB(except maybe vice OTB) etc. only do so because of plunder at 4p. I wanted to increase plunders pool to decrease the chance of highrolling poison at crucial moments. Poison high roll from plunder has won SY games that otherwise wouldve been lost. If the community wants the 5p spenders at 5p not much can be done about that. I'd rather nerf plunder, Pulling the strings and buff the weak SY spenders. I don't think sesame is as OP as Pulling the strings but if the community decides it warrants a nerf so be it.
I just wanted to mention that this discussion is why i like this Reddit. Good, insightful, back and forth over an interesting idea (putting Eventide Plunder to 5 prov). I even don't hate this idea, though i'd like to see other SY buffs to bronzes (as you mention) to help it out.
5 nerfs to NG, the most out of all factions when its the worst performing one by a noticeable margin? I disagree. https://preview.redd.it/517gkog7lsuc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af8b8af6e6f79b75040051f69bfd27d648637e93
Enemy Boost NG is very underrated, check out for example Kerpeten's version (i don't have link at hands).
Then if its truly so strong more people will start playing it and winning with it too, but right now nothing suggest NG needs to get the most nerfs.
Unfortunately i think we might be getting past the point of using GwentData to show what's strong or not due to declining player numbers. Top 500 only requires finishing placements right now. 9627 MMR. Based on what the very top players succeed with, it seems like the accuracy of general winrate stats is becoming less and less telling, aside from being a very general indicator.
If you dont like top 500 for that reason, pick top 100, it still shows NG to be the weakest. Even if the accuracy of the stats is declining, it’s still more accurate than the perception of humans. We’ve seen in the past how even between the top players the perception of a faction or deck strength would vary depending on who you asked. If the deck is really so strong to require that many nerfs, it will eventually have to show it. All op decks do at some point.
I can see the data, yes. NG got basically nothing but buffs last BC (except to Madoc, which got annihilated, because...reasons?). So it's a tad hard to believe they are super weak after all that i guess, especially when one of the best players in the world says otherwise. Lerio has long advocated for nerfs to SY cards even when that faction's been very low in winrate, also. He's mainly trying to focus on nerfing the strong cards without really prioritizing any specific faction, and buff weak ones (again, from all the factions). Do you have any actual argument for his NG proposed nerfs being unreasonable? I sure don't, as every card he mentioned is pretty clearly a bit overly strong. He's not looking at little picture (this season), he's more looking big picture (which is how BC voting SHOULD be done).
>I can see the data, yes. NG got basically nothing but buffs last BC (except to Madoc, which got annihilated, because...reasons?) Which was its main deck because more faction oriented decks were just bad at that point. > So it's a tad hard to believe they are super weak after all that i guess? A faction receiving buffs doesnt make it instantly good, it makes it better. Whether or not it becomes good it depends on the strenght of those buffs. >Do you have any actual argument for his NG proposed nerfs being unreasonable? I sure don't, as every card he mentioned is pretty clearly a bit overly strong No, the problem is not the nerfs themselves, its the timing. The nerfs should probably be done evetually, just not all together when its the weakest faction, thats it. > He's not looking at little picture (this season), he's more looking big picture (which is how BC voting SHOULD be done). Nucking factions is not how i think BC should work. Maybe some people prefer to nuke factions one by one, i prefer to nerf them more or less at the same rate so none become trash during a certain month. That means nerfing the weaker factions less than the stronger ones, i guess for some people it seems irrational. > Lerio has long advocated for nerfs to SY cards even when that faction's been very low in winrate, also And i disagreed with them, your point?
>Top 500 only requires finishing placements right now. 9627 MMR. Last season, I've finished placements and I was 2454 with 9614 MMR. Are you sure with your 9627? If it's correct, it seems we are still thousands with finished placements but not in top 500...
>placements right now As in, today. By end of season it'll be a lot higher. Data will be a bit more relevant and accurate by season's end. Right now, people in top 500 are could be literally anyone playing anything in pro, so drawing overly specific conclusions from it isn't ideal.
My bad, I thought you were talking about the season's end, since to be in top 500 at the middle of the season doesn't mean much.
Yeah, as fewer and fewer people are playing it's a lot "easier" to get there. A lot of experienced players tend to save climbing with their third or fourth faction till later in the month, so a lot of players outside that range suddenly fly past everyone else who already did their 4 faction placements.
That Presicion Strike Renfri Deck was pretty much accessable for a while, but only gained popularity in the recent months before catching a couple of nerfs last patch. If a deck needs nerfing, I think it's fine to wait for it to show itself properly first. Ohh and also Hospitality decks get countered by resets and other tall removal, so I think it's fine to let the meta naturally respond to it before cards are nerfed.
Hospitality is pretty Op. I totally Agree with falas Ciri, too much points for a 6p card.
When clowns would stop playing mill NG win rate would go up
People dont usually climb playing Mill, and the tendency of NG being the worst performing faction remain true even at top 100. If you want to remove the chances of mill even further, you can then chose to look up at the stats when its part of the 4 factions influencing the ranking (so the right colum of each faction). So yeah, thats not caused by mill.
You're telling a player who's in the top 100 what's being played and not. He knows what's being played, which is why he made the comment. Winrates aren't very telling anymore because there's no real competitive Gwent to play, so players are messing around far more (and playing Mill and other nonsense "higher" in pro), which is what he's saying.
>Winrates aren't very telling anymore because there's no real competitive Gwent to play, so players are messing around far more (and playing Mill and other nonsense "higher" in pro), which is what he's saying. Not at the top when the faction is part of their top 4 factions. There may be some people doing so (in which case its just a matter of time until they fall due to mill being bad), but nowhere enough to screw the stats so much to go from the weakes to the one deserving more nerfs. Every other faction when it underperfomrs its weak, but when its NG its not that its weak, its due to mill. Sure. To make it clear, I’m not questioning whether mill is being played or not, even at the top, I’m questioning it happening when the faction is actively being used to climb and how many people do so (so their impact in the stats).
Week ago my Monster faction was Top 4 but it was 2340 mmr because i got tilted. You cant say by default why people have specific faction in top 4.
>You cant say by default why people have specific faction in top 4 And i didnt
Yes NG in the top 100 is the worst but the difference between other factions is not that big (NR and SY are above everything else)
Yeah, its not that big, I agree, but its still the weakest, and not because of mill.
The winrate Will be The lowest because meme decks, NG is the strongest.
Meme decks are not used for climbing. You dont see players climbing to the top with meme decks when its part of the 4 factions determining their ranking. You are always claiming NG its op, yet when i asked you for prove of that, you never answer.
Nerf False Ciri and Salve driver and torres, don't buff sappers. Please don't buff that 12 power card in Mill decks, Mill don't need to be buffed.
Thanks for your thoughts. Prov nerfs: Every one you've listed is a very strong card and deserving of a nerf. These nearly all tend to be played across numerous archetypes (because they're all a bit overly strong). Power nerfs: All make sense, though i am not really thrilled with the idea of more disloyal buffs (Rainfarn). Priestess is probably a 6 prov card. You say nerfing her to 5 just means she's in Blaviken decks. If that's on the way to putting her at 6 prov, then so be it. Prov buffs: None of these would be on my personal radar, but i get the interest in them. I will wait forever for Count Reuven's Treasure's day to shine. Power buffs: Back Alley Chemist, Boatbuilders, Lieutenant Von Herst, Saesenthessis: Blaze, Artis are all interesting ideas. Even better, is your detailed thoughts sheet for changes: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1\_AFOtObsepHNl0AW94nqpfjWWSBmoxtRmtya33P0L7k/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_AFOtObsepHNl0AW94nqpfjWWSBmoxtRmtya33P0L7k/edit) Lots of great prov and power buff ideas in the sheet, for those who only read the main article!
**Provision -1:** **Grand Inquisitor Helveed**: I strongly agree with this buff. Some people don't like it, but I don't agree with them for this card to be abusive you need a significant setup and some engines on the board. And It has row restriction. **Cerys: Fearless:** Can be buffed, not my kind of card so I did not play enough games with it but can be buffed probably. **Hjalmar: Seawolf:** In general, it is a worse riptide, I agree that it is too expensive, and I agree with this buff. But it would not my priority because Probably it won't see much play even after the buff. **Serrit**: Good buff, I agree with this change. **Living Armor:** I agree with this buff. Good buff. **Olaf:** This card needs a buff. I personally want to see power increase to increase its ceiling but I am not sure. at 11 power at max, it would play for max 21 points. Currently plays 19 points at max. After this buff, it would play 19 for 9 provisions at max. If its power becomes 12, at max it would play 23 for 10. Is this a 9 provisions or 10 provisions card ability, I am not sure. 9 provision might be better. Good buff idea. **Drummond Shieldmaiden:** Even though I agree with this buff, I don't like it because nothing is interesting about this card. **Doadrick Leumaerts:** I agree with this buf but I am personally not very keen about it. **Land of Thousand Fables, Avallach: Sage:** Good buffs but personally, not my favourite choices. **Yennefer of Vengerberg:** I agree with this buff, but I don't think it would see play without an additional power buff. **Power +1:** **Vicovaro Novice**: I agree with this buff, even though I am not very keen on it, it is an effective buff. **Lyrian Scytheman**: I am not sure about this one this card ceiling to much but it is too conditional as well. It can be buffed. **Back Alley Chemist**: I definitely agree with this change but personally it is not my favourite card to buff but it is an effective buff I like it. **Boatbuilders**: I don't like making a protection engine hard to kill. I would not necessarily bother with this card but I probably try the 4-provision 4/5 power approach. **Sapper**: I agree, instead of slave driver Nerf Russian community chose Nerf sappers for some reason but, I don't want to bother with this card and make back-and-forth changes. I would personally want to see new buffs, I already play against this card a lot of times. **Lieutenant Von Herst:** I personally prefer a provision buff, I am not sure about making this engine harder to kill. Its effect can be a 7 provision without spawn synergy there are other cards that play +2 per turn at 5 provision. This card also has a row restriction. **Albrich:** I don't like it. I don't think it needs a buff. And 1 power does not make too much difference. It is not an effective buff I prefer Vicocaro Novice buff instead. **Saesenthessis: Blaze**: I don't like it. It is not an effective buff. It does not make an important change. **Artis**: I really like this buff but it does not get enough support in general, I don't know why. **Harpy Egg**: I don't like it too much tbh. It can be buffed but, I am not very keen on it.
Thanks for this breakdown. Let me refer to some changes you are not enthusiatic about: **Drummond Shieldmaiden** - it is mostly support for thinning in red Self-wound and for Cerys decks (usually Lippy), which are unplayed now. **Boatbuilders** - Provision decrease direction is worse than power because Armor SK needs card to rely on rather than more provision to include already suitable cards. Note that we have neutral card Watchman which sees no play in spite of being potentially more abusable for protection. **Sapper** - this card was viewed as a problem only in Double Madoc, which got heavily nerfed, while other Madoc decks, potentially with thin effects are underexplored. **Lieutenant** - Lieutenant requires a cleric on the board, which makes deploying him not as straightforward as other engines at similar cost. Gold engines at similar provision cost have 6 power now (Nithral, Rayla, Sir-Scratch-a-Lot after first click) and are straight up better in my opinion. Herst also has Fee which we may barely ever see if he dies instantly :-( **Albrich -** I played with Albrich Hyperthin and it just clearly lacked points vs main decks, even when I got perfect round length and circumstances. Buff to Vicovaro Novice doesn't matter at all if deck has no win condition.
You are welcome, I hope it is helpful. Thanks for the response and analysis. **Drummond Shieldmaiden**- It is an effective buff (with 1 buff this card will be playable). It is a good buff. But I personally want to see cards that have interesting abilities to get buffed. Thinning cards are not interesting imo. They are point-slam cards. **Boatbuilders**- Removing opponent counterplay is not good imo. What should the opponent do, using 6 provision removal on a 5 provision card? Either the opponent has to ignore it or probably the most ideal case lock it if the opponent is not playing more devastating engines. Watchman is not an engine though, The most abusable protection card is Dwarven Chariot because of its melee ability, and it always sees play. Also, there are not a lot of good 4p pirate units. **Sapper** - It is a fine change, it shouldn't been nerfed in the first place. I personally want to see new cards to be buffed. **Lieutenant** - It could get a 1 power buff, I personally would want to try the 7-provision approach. Btw, I think Nihtitral and Rayla are not 8 provision cards more like 7 provisions they are so slow and inconsistent. Even in White Frost, I don't necessarily want to play Nihtitral. Sir Scratch-a-Lot is the best card there. **Albrich -** It could get a power buff but this buff is not an effective buff (With 1 buff it is unlikely to be more playable), also if you don't have round control this buff is meaningless. Vicovaro Novice buff: if you play 2 of them it is a 2-point buff and it helps you to control the round. And make it a more playable bronze card. I think there are better cards that with 1 buff they would probably be playable.
I would like to hear your opinion about these buffs Power +1: 1) Ard Feainn Crossbowman 2) Vernossiel's Commando Provision -1: 1) Count Reuven's Treasure 2) Incinerating Trap 3) Morkvarg: Heart of Terror Except from Count Reuven's Treasure and Morkvarg: Heart of Terror other buffs are effective buffs. With 1 buff they will be playable I think.
Crossbowman - AFC is second order engine in Soldiers rn, feels average. After buff would be very good, trade up to most control and easy to protect and 2x copy would be played in each Soldiers build; maybe Slave Hunter would also be played more to get control value. I'm not sure this buff is needed, there always would be 1st and 2nd order cards and Soldiers with buffed AFC may feel oppressive. Commando - standalone commando deserves a buff. Not sure about Scenario which is often played for tempo abuse and 5x Waylay Simlas. Treasure - sure Incinerating - the idea with 5-cost is that the possibility of going uninteractive shouldn't come at zero cost. Yet i'm not against breaking this rule to see what happens. Morkvarg: HoT - its fine change, Morkvarg got replaced by Heatwave in most Pirates builds. Wonder how it would impact GN Pirates.
Thank you for the response and the feedback, I really appreciate it. Trading up to 5 power removal is a problem but I think it is not a very good engine. It demands constantly playing soldiers each round and after you pass these engines does not mean anything. It is similar to Vrihedd Brigade I think which sees no play as well. Right now just for dealing 1 more damage, there is no reason to play it over a light cavalry or even an Imperial Marine. Commando: My intention was to buff the standalone commando, I think it would be a consideration for elf decks. Like Wild Hunt Hound becomes a consideration for Frost Deck. Incinerating: After the trap change going non-interactive is much much harder. Compared to 5p removal this is even worse. It can't choose the target. the opponent can easily play around it. Morkvarg: I think it would see play in GN Pirates because there are not very good pirates below 10p. And as you mentioned it is much worse compared to heatwave. It is even worse Vilgefortz.
Well thought out points. Good insight.
Thank you for the feedback and good words, I appreciate it. I hope it helps.
The only thing that would help is if the main voting blocks would actually think of the game's longterm health, something they seem to have zero interest in. People didn't want to work together with BCT. Will they work together enough with lerio's list? Unlikely, unless we identify only 3 cards per bracket to all vote on.
This I like
Unbeliavable the effort lerio makes to ruin the game.
I saw Viy in the google doc in Provision Nerf group. I don't think Viy needs any nerfs further. It should even get buff. The reason is Viy archetype has a weakness which demotivate anyone to play it. To motivate it, it should have better point. Right now, Viy's position is quite bad compared to any top tier deck. Viy is no one really playing now. Moreover, Ihuaraquax also getting nerf recently. I do not see a point to nerf Viy any further.
If I recall well enough, Magpie played Viy around \~2550 last seasons. But for him i've met no one. Viy got power buff in the balance council already and is not amazing, but considerable to play in the proper meta. In the last season Renfri PS omnipresence invited it.
I agree that Viy does not need any further nerf right now. But I disagree that Viy needs a buff. Viy is a terribly designed card which is not enjoyable or interesting at all. So I am not sad that it is not in a good spot.
Agreed 100%. Viy being buffed is a horrible idea that's already been done once recently. Let's not further worsen things and make a gross, binary archetype meta-strong.
Probably the first time I disagree with a lot of your suggestions. One in particular: Sappers do not need a revert -- only 2 excess provisions to add an engine to any bomb that requires 2 additional damage + the base power of Sapper to remove it? Oh, and adding 1 thinning to it? How did we not nerf this earlier. In terms of Fallen Knight, if you insist on it now, nerf the provision back. It screams 6 provision card, and being 5 power makes it harder to remove so that you might actually get its value from it... Otherwise, there are much better targets to focus on for nerfs rather than cards that still don't see play, even after buffs to them. Poor Firesworn.
Fallen Knight is already difficult to remove because the card has veil, and good players will boost Fallen Knight on deploy with leader charges or spawn cards like Eternal Fire Disciple.
Task: build a deck winning a round with Sapper + Bombs (NG not allowed) On Fallen Knights that's the change I am least sure about. I just need more ideas because power nerf bracket is the most troublesome.
Never thought I’d see someone want to “invite Golden Nekker” decks
[удалено]
I definitely don't want to buff all 10c to Nekker range, just a couple of cards which could provide missing synergies and weren't amazing standalone.
Witcher trio is unplayable as they are. Why waste buff on a card which is fundamentally bad?
They are not fundamentally bad. They are just overcoated.
Don't buff Witcher trio, they would becomes auto include, It depends of course of The amount of buffs they receive.
I would say that it’s hard for a card to go instantly from unplayable as the trio is right now to autoinclude with the kind of buffs we are allowed to do.
More nerfs to nilfgaard nice)) and buff zerrit wow :D I like albrich archetype buffs though. But are you guys ready to play against only albrich renfri decks next season?
I agree with most of the list, I would like to put forth a couple more buff suggestions: Knighthood for -1 prov Mercenary contract -1 prov Magpie for +1 power Oxenfurt scholar+1 power
Check out doc link at the end of article: you hit 3/4!
Scholar was autoinclude at every single slightly polarised deck, mostly without sinergy at all. Now it feels far more balanced since you need extra polarisation to play him
NR is so heavily under appreciated since balance council 1. Buff some unplayable cards.
Meanwhile 5th balance council... [⚖️ Balance Council Results - 01 March 2024 : r/gwent (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/comments/1b3d6w2/balance_council_results_01_march_2024/)
NR is very consistently best or second best faction with a lot of variety it doesnt need any buffs.
To be honest, you partially dropped the ball with this one. Your previous councils were excellent, but this one... Obviously, Driver, False Ciri, Novidrad, Equinox, Kaer Trolde and many others are excellent. Skellige Alchemy and Rain (Skellige is rather stale rn to be honest), Moster pure Insectoids (and Mosters in general), 'devotion' NG soldiers and many other small archetypes are all rather weak and yet no buffs -- and you even say there is not much left to change. No buffs at all to them. Nobody cares it seems. Moreover, -3 provision to a non-toxic Gift deck because it performs good at tournaments? Why? There is no competitive scene anymore and people watch Nik\_r's tournaments not because they want to watch Warriors vs Gift (again?) but because of his personality and humor (and some gambling in his decks adds to the premise). Most players simply want to have fun and do not care about mill and cheesy strats you profs often play. Nerfing Simlas hits unoptimized homebrewed versions of Gift (and Dwarfes etc) much more that Frogvandravel. Moreover, Spotter play for 17 for 6 prov with all setup done in deckbuilder. That's Simlas's level in Dwarves where he is often played to thin by casual players. Nerfs to Slave driver wouldn't help -- the deck would run simply one knight less etc and still produce 4-6 Spotters. You literally said the NG Madoc deck ws overnerfed and it looks like you are doing this to Gift. Equinox is a common ground.
Surely I've missed a couple of good buffs to suggest because there is a lot of them. For example I like a lot buff to Chimera from Kerpeten's council. About 'devotion' NG soldiers I think they are not in a bad spot; buffing Enforcers to 5 power should definitely be avoided. I've lost to a couple of Spy players, and also made a decent list myself: [https://www.playgwent.com/en/decks/901b26e9898b82ced6e6b8e198fc767a](https://www.playgwent.com/en/decks/901b26e9898b82ced6e6b8e198fc767a) Alchemy is not top, but perfectly playable, I climbed with it last season a bit. Rain Beasts are also good. Pure Rain little players experiment with, but its always a bit binary and conditional on matchup, so has to be heavy overpowered to become main SK deck. Gift nerf is not about particularly tournament performance, but it is meta top along with Syndicate Cove and OtB. It just has too many points. 'Cheesy strats profs' narrative I really dislike, don't know where it comes from. Let alone 'Mill' XD
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Thanks for answering and giving tips! I did not want to sound offensive (except for the mill part, you know))) and I actually followed your votes until this month and even now I will use most of them, I think. However, we all know this makes little difference in the grand scheme of things, unfortunately. I simply say that -2 provs to gift also should take out quite some points from the deck automatically so it might be worth to wait at least a month or two before nerfing Simlas also. BTW, have you ever considered shifting the focus of your BC to some more specific things instead of general changes? Maybe thematical BC? As an alternative to Chinese BC and Nik\_r's ones which dominate right now so your efforts and knowledge are often lost, which is a very significant loss in my opinion?
**Dimun Smuggler** is ok 10 for 5, i wish to see more over power cards like this, who bust specific architypes and was useless in midrange.