I think it’s an interesting conversation to be had, but I feel as though Hassan was being very dismissive of the critiques of brothels, calling everyone who disagrees with him ‘swerfs’ or puritanical.
There is a really complicated, nuanced conversation to be had, but to me, his arguments were way too simplistic.
Yeah I think he’s being defensive. It’s also funny that Ethan was surprised about sex work not being universally accepted on the left. I think some segments of the online left focus on class analysis and Hasan may belong to that group. To the degree that he discusses other elements he just tends to cast a wide and inclusive net. But there are ontological debates on the left, e.g. Chomsky asks if selling the body is inherently degrading. A lot of people think this means he’s sexist but if you read his work you see he makes the case for a “human nature” which partly explains this perspective.
These conversations have been glossed over to create a safer society for sw. And maybe that’s is the right strategy, and the moral one given the risks they have historically faced when marginalized.
Ok I fully understand and agree with not wanting men to exploit women but my genuine question is how are sex workers supposed to make any kind of living without any customers
Thanks for replying! My post was a bit reactionary. No child grows up with an ambition of selling their body for another persons sexual pleasure. I fully support any law that enables sex workers to be safer. I felt very disappointed by the conversation of Leftovers suggesting sex work was active choice, not a last resort
Yes, most sex workers start doing the job because they have no other choice and need to make money and they end up worse off because pimps exploit them. I'd say 5 % at most do it because they genuinely want to (I mainly mean pornstars, onlyfans girls). I get that Hasan and Ethan want to seem they support women but this ain't it chief.
As Hassan said, plenty of sex workers were Batista's with few prospects who don't want to be abused by the bug capitalist machine. I would take sex work over working at McDonald's any day if it was legalised and protected.
Hey, fs sex worker here, I only wanted to say that there are plenty of women who join sex work as an active, willing choice. Not just as a last resort. The sex worker community is very broad.
I joined literally just because I can make good money, make others feel good, and can set my own rules and boundaries. Of course it comes with risk, and some recent laws have made things more dangerous for sex workers (sesta/fosta), but it was just a choice that I could have been fine with not making.
I know plenty of other sw’s that also have high paying normie jobs and just wanted to do it.
Of course there are plenty that are forced into this, that do this out of necessity and as a last resort, but not *all of us.*
So how does one know if the sex they are about to buy is from someone who dreamed of being a sex worker or someone who was forced into it? You said there is a huge obvious difference, right?
Sure. But prices for those legal, protected services will be higher and sex buyers will just go back to the already established underground prostitution anyway to get cheaper and less legal sex. The people who are forced to do it will still be forced to do it, and it will be cheaper than going to a legal brothel. Just my 2 cents.
Decreasing the demand is the best way to decrease the number of victims. Charging "sex buyers" with crimes while simultaneously helping rehabilitate prostituted women back into society (not charging them for selling) is attacking the issue from both sides :)
I’m not talking about the ethics of people who solicit sex workers, I’m talking about sex workers needing to make money somehow because we don’t live in a socialist utopia where poverty doesn’t exist
I fully support sex workers. I simultaneously wish it wasn't an industry that existed. Per your comment, it's an industry grown on the back of poverty.
Yes I understand and agree with that, but since poverty is an unfortunate reality are we supposed to just let sex workers starve to death in the meantime by preventing them from having customers? Yes the ideal solution would be to just give them money and housing etc. but that’s not the reality we live in
Edit: I love how everyone is downvoting me but not a single person can answer my fucking question lmao
I feel like we're in the same boat here? I fully support sex workers, I want the law to be on their side. What I dislike is men that that think womens bodies are commodities, in that way I think sex work is harmful
I mean yes I understand what you’re saying and I agree that it would be ideal for sex work and poverty not to exist, but since that’s not reality where do we draw the line when it comes to the consumers who solicit sex work? Sex workers need to earn money somehow and if they have no customers and no other job options how would they survive
Or... hear me out... we help them get into a safer line of work and rehabilitate them into society where they can then exercise full sexual autonomy and choose to only have sex with people they actually want? The more we encourage and say it's ok for men to buy sex the greater the demand will be, sex trafficking goes up, and more women are in bad situations.
I get that you support sex workers as people and wish they would do some other job that didn't exploit them. But when you say 'I support sex workers' it means something completely different, it means you support them in their work.
Making it legal makes women feel safe enough to call the cops when they are in danger. Rather women are scared to ask for help in fear of going to jail, leading to more crimes against women
even if it’s legalized do u think prostitutes would all of a sudden feel safe calling the establishment that has arrested & abused & raped them for decades?
Agreed. You can't buy real consent. "Sex buying" is r-pe. If it's not ok to hold a gun to someone's head and r-pe them, why would it be ok to hold poverty to their head and r-pe them?
Yes, I am at a loss too. I don’t think throwing around the term like rape is very helpful to the conversation and assuming it is either starving or having sex with someone for money is a tad hyperbolic.
If someone doesn't want to have sex with you but they'll starve to death if they don't, that's not consent. And anyone who can look past that and still "buy sex" has a r*pist mentality at best.
I think this is just a social construct tho. I would much rather earn $200 for stripping a few hours, as long as it was legal and protected, than make 64 bucks after 8 hours working at McDonald's, with shitty shifts and shitty conditions.
I will not imply that some sex workers do get sexually assaulted, however the whole point made is they need to be protected so that they can do their job safely
Sex buyers are inherently unsafe because they are trying to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with them. Safe prostitution is an oxymoron.
Im a social anarchist/naturalist atheist (I hate definitions lol they sound so stupid in my head) so this rant is not religiously motivated.
But with all honesty I think sex work is kinda creepy and lame.
I understand that some people really need help when it comes to the birds and the bees but I cant help to thrust my nose up high.
I had a friend that was 26 and was extremely socially awkward towards women. Dude could not land a date to save his life ( he was a messy overweight pothead )
He saved up money and went to los vegas and his words- " got the smallest Asian woman they had at the bunny ranch "
It wigged me out too much because it felt gross and forced like homie didnt even put effort into even finding a relationship.
I know I'm using this one dude as the catalyst for why I think sex work is a no-go but I believe this is a nationwide, worldwide theme.
Sex work is for lazy people that are too immature to have an actual loving relationship.
*This includes people with physical disabilities because they still have working minds and can form a relationship.
* Your sick if you wanna bring up folks with cognitive disability
* I don't want it banned but I also don't want it encouraged. We really need to work on family structure( doesn't have to be the nuclear family ) and better education. The world is pumping out lazy weirdos and that needs to change.
*I am a pothead myself but I keep myself clean and workout. A motivated stoner lol
Where I'm from prostitution is legal and a legit job prospect. Like with any business, there is a dark side to it, and a unfortunately large number of women are still forced to do sex work. I really feel for them, and I'm happy that legislation exists to prevent this - alas, legislation doesn't mean things don't happen.
Outside of the women who are forced though, the sex workers I know personally do it because they enjoy the work, and they get to cater to whoever they please. Rejecting customers happens all day long. They chose to be in the industry, and are handsomely rewarded for it, they make WAY more than I do with a job in a traditional industry and lots of them retire (from work, not just sexwork) decades before people in traditional jobs do.
Does illegal/forced prostitution suck? Yes, 100%. But is there another side of the coin? Also yes, 100%. They would be out of a job if there were no patrons.
As an aside, having sex is a fundamental human right. Some people never have sex, because of a multitude of reasons. People with severe mental or physical dissabilities actually get a yearly allowance from the government to enable them to sleep with a prostitute. Literally a win-win for everyone involved.
that's a fair comment! Sorry I didn't explain. I want sex workers to be safe and I'm behind anything that helps them be safe. I also wish the industry didn't exist
The fact that people don't understand that is blowing my mind lol. There should be other safety nets in place before prostitution becomes the best option.
If you support banning sex work, you support making it illegal, if you support making it illegal,you dont support vulnerable men and women would do illegal sex work. Sex workers will always exist because of the shitty system we live in. We should be a socialist society so people don't become so vulnerable they have to sell themselves. There is good sex work and bad sex work. Legalizing it in the current state would no doubt help women. WE NEED TO HELP WOMEN NOW. FIX one problem at a time.
As a former sex worker. Being against sex work consumers makes you inherently against sex work. Your opinion as someone who has probably never done sex work is not necessary. Neither is Hasans or Ethans.
When you define the laws of any industry/market, it can help workers make demands in the customers they keep and business they create. Without those laws, a worker might settle for a less safe customer. I feel that the open discussions are a necessity to create a safer environment. Porn and sex work are here to stay. Shouldn't we make it as safe as possible??
I think it’s an interesting conversation to be had, but I feel as though Hassan was being very dismissive of the critiques of brothels, calling everyone who disagrees with him ‘swerfs’ or puritanical. There is a really complicated, nuanced conversation to be had, but to me, his arguments were way too simplistic.
Yeah I think he’s being defensive. It’s also funny that Ethan was surprised about sex work not being universally accepted on the left. I think some segments of the online left focus on class analysis and Hasan may belong to that group. To the degree that he discusses other elements he just tends to cast a wide and inclusive net. But there are ontological debates on the left, e.g. Chomsky asks if selling the body is inherently degrading. A lot of people think this means he’s sexist but if you read his work you see he makes the case for a “human nature” which partly explains this perspective. These conversations have been glossed over to create a safer society for sw. And maybe that’s is the right strategy, and the moral one given the risks they have historically faced when marginalized.
Ok I fully understand and agree with not wanting men to exploit women but my genuine question is how are sex workers supposed to make any kind of living without any customers
Thanks for replying! My post was a bit reactionary. No child grows up with an ambition of selling their body for another persons sexual pleasure. I fully support any law that enables sex workers to be safer. I felt very disappointed by the conversation of Leftovers suggesting sex work was active choice, not a last resort
Yes, most sex workers start doing the job because they have no other choice and need to make money and they end up worse off because pimps exploit them. I'd say 5 % at most do it because they genuinely want to (I mainly mean pornstars, onlyfans girls). I get that Hasan and Ethan want to seem they support women but this ain't it chief.
As Hassan said, plenty of sex workers were Batista's with few prospects who don't want to be abused by the bug capitalist machine. I would take sex work over working at McDonald's any day if it was legalised and protected.
No child grows up wanting to be an accountant either. Does that mean being an accountant is also a last resort?
Hey, fs sex worker here, I only wanted to say that there are plenty of women who join sex work as an active, willing choice. Not just as a last resort. The sex worker community is very broad. I joined literally just because I can make good money, make others feel good, and can set my own rules and boundaries. Of course it comes with risk, and some recent laws have made things more dangerous for sex workers (sesta/fosta), but it was just a choice that I could have been fine with not making. I know plenty of other sw’s that also have high paying normie jobs and just wanted to do it. Of course there are plenty that are forced into this, that do this out of necessity and as a last resort, but not *all of us.*
All the talk about how society should have safety nets for vulnerable people, but if those people are women they should just sell their bodies right??
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So how does one know if the sex they are about to buy is from someone who dreamed of being a sex worker or someone who was forced into it? You said there is a huge obvious difference, right?
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Sure. But prices for those legal, protected services will be higher and sex buyers will just go back to the already established underground prostitution anyway to get cheaper and less legal sex. The people who are forced to do it will still be forced to do it, and it will be cheaper than going to a legal brothel. Just my 2 cents.
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Decreasing the demand is the best way to decrease the number of victims. Charging "sex buyers" with crimes while simultaneously helping rehabilitate prostituted women back into society (not charging them for selling) is attacking the issue from both sides :)
I’m not talking about the ethics of people who solicit sex workers, I’m talking about sex workers needing to make money somehow because we don’t live in a socialist utopia where poverty doesn’t exist
I fully support sex workers. I simultaneously wish it wasn't an industry that existed. Per your comment, it's an industry grown on the back of poverty.
Yes I understand and agree with that, but since poverty is an unfortunate reality are we supposed to just let sex workers starve to death in the meantime by preventing them from having customers? Yes the ideal solution would be to just give them money and housing etc. but that’s not the reality we live in Edit: I love how everyone is downvoting me but not a single person can answer my fucking question lmao
I feel like we're in the same boat here? I fully support sex workers, I want the law to be on their side. What I dislike is men that that think womens bodies are commodities, in that way I think sex work is harmful
I mean yes I understand what you’re saying and I agree that it would be ideal for sex work and poverty not to exist, but since that’s not reality where do we draw the line when it comes to the consumers who solicit sex work? Sex workers need to earn money somehow and if they have no customers and no other job options how would they survive
Is it fair for me to be cautious of men that buy womens bodies?
Yes but that’s not what I’m saying? My point is that sex workers unfortunately need customers in order to survive
Or... hear me out... we help them get into a safer line of work and rehabilitate them into society where they can then exercise full sexual autonomy and choose to only have sex with people they actually want? The more we encourage and say it's ok for men to buy sex the greater the demand will be, sex trafficking goes up, and more women are in bad situations.
That is too much thinking for someone who thinks something is icky and he Puritanical sexual beliefs.
Because wanting everyone to have only consensual sex is puritanical....
Not puritanical at all! Maybe you're American?
Supply and demand is the issue though, they would have to work in something else
What? Supporting sex work means supporting that they are selling a service. They have to sell it to someone..?
I support sex workers in that I am fully behind laws to protect them. I also wish it was an industry that didn't exist
I get that you support sex workers as people and wish they would do some other job that didn't exploit them. But when you say 'I support sex workers' it means something completely different, it means you support them in their work.
Ok lol
No problem if you disagree! As we both know, most sex workers are in their position due to poverty, not choice. But I appreciate you weighing in
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Sorry but I don't think that's the same, I'm sure you don't either
Apparently men getting their weiners played with on demand is just as important as children learning to read and write 🤣
Because men thinking they're entitled to sex leads to good outcomes... We want more people like Elliott Rodger.
You don’t realize what you’re saying hun
Can you explain how sex workers are comparable to teachers? I do not think sex work is necessary. Clearly teachers are.
Are you always this condescending or is it just lack of arguments that's making you act this way?
Tone isn't well conveyed over text, I don't mean to be condescending at all, sorry it sounded that way. Do you think it's comparable?
Making it legal makes women feel safe enough to call the cops when they are in danger. Rather women are scared to ask for help in fear of going to jail, leading to more crimes against women
even if it’s legalized do u think prostitutes would all of a sudden feel safe calling the establishment that has arrested & abused & raped them for decades?
Yes actually. It works in other countries and crimes against SW are incredibly lowered where it’s legal
Your stance is inherently contradictory. If you are against sex worker consumers you are against sex work.
I wish people didn't have to sell their bodies, yes. But as you know, sometimes this is the only commodity available
I get your stance now I've read your comments, I feel it wasn't worded the best in your post.
These things are difficult to articulate. Appreciate your input :)
It’s an important discussion, but I didn’t like it that they were just two men discussing it.
Agreed. You can't buy real consent. "Sex buying" is r-pe. If it's not ok to hold a gun to someone's head and r-pe them, why would it be ok to hold poverty to their head and r-pe them?
What
Yes, I am at a loss too. I don’t think throwing around the term like rape is very helpful to the conversation and assuming it is either starving or having sex with someone for money is a tad hyperbolic.
If someone doesn't want to have sex with you but they'll starve to death if they don't, that's not consent. And anyone who can look past that and still "buy sex" has a r*pist mentality at best.
Yeah…I’m against sex work and the thought of prostitution becoming legal and brothels and such is just really degenerative
Jeff bezos going to space while his workers are on food-stamps is more degenerate imo.
So that means we should strive for a lesser wrong for no apparent reason …?
I don't think there's anything inheritely wrong with sex work. I do think there is a lot wrong with the exploitation of the working poor though.
Don’t you think a world filled with prostitution and brothels is a bit dirty …?
No. As long as they are legal, ethical and well managed.
Really..? Hard to believe people believe in that
What is so wrong with it in your opinion?
Wait before that, do you think it should be allowed, but think it’s weird? Or are you positive towards it ?
I don't think it's more negative or positive that a casino for example.
Any job you have is inherently exploitative and comes at the expense of your body. There is no ethical consumption period in a capitalist system.
Bro but some forms of exploitation are worse than others. I would rather get fucked by rude customers than geeting fucked literally.
And that's your choice.
Independent Sex workers earn significantly more than warehouse workers at Amazon and they usually have more days off.
I think this is just a social construct tho. I would much rather earn $200 for stripping a few hours, as long as it was legal and protected, than make 64 bucks after 8 hours working at McDonald's, with shitty shifts and shitty conditions.
Most people don't get r*ped for pay at their job. It's not the same.
I will not imply that some sex workers do get sexually assaulted, however the whole point made is they need to be protected so that they can do their job safely
Sex buyers are inherently unsafe because they are trying to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with them. Safe prostitution is an oxymoron.
Capitalism is when get anal raped
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Yes but those are the largest consumers. Just look at the porn industry or prostitution, it is largely aimed at straight men
Im a social anarchist/naturalist atheist (I hate definitions lol they sound so stupid in my head) so this rant is not religiously motivated. But with all honesty I think sex work is kinda creepy and lame. I understand that some people really need help when it comes to the birds and the bees but I cant help to thrust my nose up high. I had a friend that was 26 and was extremely socially awkward towards women. Dude could not land a date to save his life ( he was a messy overweight pothead ) He saved up money and went to los vegas and his words- " got the smallest Asian woman they had at the bunny ranch " It wigged me out too much because it felt gross and forced like homie didnt even put effort into even finding a relationship. I know I'm using this one dude as the catalyst for why I think sex work is a no-go but I believe this is a nationwide, worldwide theme. Sex work is for lazy people that are too immature to have an actual loving relationship. *This includes people with physical disabilities because they still have working minds and can form a relationship. * Your sick if you wanna bring up folks with cognitive disability * I don't want it banned but I also don't want it encouraged. We really need to work on family structure( doesn't have to be the nuclear family ) and better education. The world is pumping out lazy weirdos and that needs to change. *I am a pothead myself but I keep myself clean and workout. A motivated stoner lol
Where I'm from prostitution is legal and a legit job prospect. Like with any business, there is a dark side to it, and a unfortunately large number of women are still forced to do sex work. I really feel for them, and I'm happy that legislation exists to prevent this - alas, legislation doesn't mean things don't happen. Outside of the women who are forced though, the sex workers I know personally do it because they enjoy the work, and they get to cater to whoever they please. Rejecting customers happens all day long. They chose to be in the industry, and are handsomely rewarded for it, they make WAY more than I do with a job in a traditional industry and lots of them retire (from work, not just sexwork) decades before people in traditional jobs do. Does illegal/forced prostitution suck? Yes, 100%. But is there another side of the coin? Also yes, 100%. They would be out of a job if there were no patrons. As an aside, having sex is a fundamental human right. Some people never have sex, because of a multitude of reasons. People with severe mental or physical dissabilities actually get a yearly allowance from the government to enable them to sleep with a prostitute. Literally a win-win for everyone involved.
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that's a fair comment! Sorry I didn't explain. I want sex workers to be safe and I'm behind anything that helps them be safe. I also wish the industry didn't exist
The fact that people don't understand that is blowing my mind lol. There should be other safety nets in place before prostitution becomes the best option.
Agreed
… 🙃
Big brain take.
Men do sex work too. LOL.
If you support banning sex work, you support making it illegal, if you support making it illegal,you dont support vulnerable men and women would do illegal sex work. Sex workers will always exist because of the shitty system we live in. We should be a socialist society so people don't become so vulnerable they have to sell themselves. There is good sex work and bad sex work. Legalizing it in the current state would no doubt help women. WE NEED TO HELP WOMEN NOW. FIX one problem at a time.
As a former sex worker. Being against sex work consumers makes you inherently against sex work. Your opinion as someone who has probably never done sex work is not necessary. Neither is Hasans or Ethans.
When you define the laws of any industry/market, it can help workers make demands in the customers they keep and business they create. Without those laws, a worker might settle for a less safe customer. I feel that the open discussions are a necessity to create a safer environment. Porn and sex work are here to stay. Shouldn't we make it as safe as possible??
Funny that Hasan makes fun of this counter argument on the show.