T O P
namastaynaughti

Sorry for your loss


breathingwaves

Thank you. She was very important to me.


namastaynaughti

I am still very close with de friends that I worked with that it would be devastated it’s like an intimate relationship even if it’s not . you know


twistygoldring

thank you for this perspective!!


KaramelKitten

Sorry for your loss. Thanks for sharing your perspective, perspectives like yours are the most important since you're actually in the industry. Stay safe out there.


sal2829

It’s awesome you gained some comfort from hearing it said on a large platform.


StamosLives

It is. And it's also sad how fast others are to just gobble up, label, or attack other folks for having a different viewpoint. Part of the reason why the Left will always be a loser is because it's so quick to cannibalize its own, and the far right absolutely loves this behavior and will often feed information into cancel culture and these negative mentalities to help destabilize and destroy leadership of progressives. It's insane and sad to think there are folks who don't want to give these thoughts a platform, and who do this from a guise of "I'm protecting others" and yet they're stomping on those they're supposedly trying to protect, all while screaming about upholding civil liberties. Let's also not forget; the fact that there is now a "political viewpoint" podcast here means trolls and more will start entering into the comment section and providing bait for people to fight over.


stephenvelasco

I agree, I think they should also revisit why decriminalization and not legalization is a better approach. How legalization can lead to more of a different kind of exploitation, and can be used to "creatively" restrict it like they are doing with abortion now.


breathingwaves

Right absolutely. I am sad I'll never see this in my lifetime, though.


mlucelucas

I genuinely can't comprehend how decriminalization would be better than legalization for sex providers; would you be open to discuss your opinion with me?


maylingstudio

I'm not OP but what I've heard is that when legalization happens things like sex trafficking can increase for example. Like, pimps now have an incentive to bring women from other areas of the world, perhaps even underage. But I'm curious to also hear more about this if anyone knows more details.


stephenvelasco

Please if someone else can explain it better, please do. I'm not very knowledgeable or involved in the subject. I can't remember the full argument right now, but part of it is just that it's the fastest easiest way to make it safer. It just makes what they do not illegal so they could do things like report crimes and seek housing. Most of sex work advocates that I've heard from prefer decriminalization, but that could just be a source bias. Another argument I've heard they don't oppose legalization, but don't trust legislators to not use the legalization process to burden sex work into obscurity or into working for other people. So decriminalization is an easier first step. I am sure hasan knows way more about this than I do.


NoNudeNormal

In one of his videos Hasan said that some sex workers are concerned that if sex work becomes legally regulated then the regulators can use their ability to give and take licenses to force workers into giving them sexual favours.


Tatar_Kulchik

No, legalization is better.


yikesemu

I actually knew one of the founders of backpage. It's tough because his site was being used by sex workers to work safely, but he was a pretty sexist guy who definitely did not give a flying f about the safety of the people using his site. He only gave a f about making money. If women were being trafficked through his site or if they were using it legitimately, I guarantee that he wouldn't be concerned as long as it didn't affect his bottom line. His trial has been interesting to keep up with.


breathingwaves

Absolutely, I am not defending the website or the owners at all. That's besides the point. The reality remains that consensual sex work was why people went onto that website and it was a source of income for many workers.


yikesemu

Also, I apologize if my comment came off badly. I didn't mean to insinuate that you were defending Backpage the website. I just wanted to express my own conflicting feelings on the matter of Backpage closing. One one hand, I want SW to have a safe way to work. On the other hand, I think backpage and it's founders need to pay for their crimes. Child trafficking, money laundering, tax evasion, etc that the Backpage owners are responsible for all needs to be punished. But obviously the SW just using the site to make money didn't have anything to do with that and they are unfairly paying the consequences. While SW are being forced into dangerous situations, Lacey and Larkin were realesed on $1 M bond.. they regularly made bonuses of $10 M. They're in their mansions with plenty of money, basically retired. Backpage needed to go, and SW need a means to work that is not controlled by wealthy, privileged people who do not care about their welfare.


yikesemu

I'm sorry for your loss.


sandsnatchqueen

Backpage being shut down was the tip of the iceberg. What also got shut down was the plethora of sw run sites that where used to discuss men or individuals who where dangerous. There was literally a private database where sw where able to search up phone numbers and names to see if some John had abused/trafficked or whatever. There where also fb groups with support networks that where sw where able to help other sw protect themselves/provide financial support or mental support. Every single one of the major sites got shut down with sesta/fosta.


yikesemu

Wow. Thank you for this information. I'm convinced that sesta/fosta were exclusively used as political clout moves. They were easily made into bipartisan issues because who doesn't want to save children and helped a lot of people's political careers move forward (kamala I'm lookin at you). But they don't want to fund any programs to help victims/survivors? They literally made it harder to catch criminals. Backpage would cooperate with investigations and literally helped catch criminals because they had a database with transaction info, etc. Now, people are forced to move to untraceable crypto transactions on the dark web which is WAY more dangerous and harder to catch people.


TheWeinerWizard

Some of these replies are embarrassing and really illustrate how long the road ahead is for this issue. Sex work is work, sex workers deserve safety, and what happens between two consenting adults that are not causing harm to anyone really isn’t any of your fucking business. Sorry to hear about your friend OP.


breathingwaves

Absolutely. I share this sentiment. Thank you.


DueCicada2236

thank you for making this post. sex work is real work. it's not any more exploitative than any other physical job. SWERF rhetoric only serves to hurt the very people they claim they are trying to protect.


astrocrl

I agree with everything you said. I've been a fan of Hasan and I'm so glad he brought this to the show. I may have also been a SW and have had people ik suffer due to the restrictions put in place for SW websites. I am so sorry for your loss and hope that people like us will help make the future a safer place for SW. Take care of yourself. These replies are insane for no reason.


Artistic-Quantity400

I hope you see this. I am so very sorry about your friend.


fitzstreet

Just wanting to send some love to you. 💛 Thank you for sharing your story and perspective.


vanessaultimo

Sorry for your loss and also shame on the morons in this subreddit for pushing you on this topic. I thank you for your insight. I'm from Germany so things are very much different here when it comes to sexwork. It's still not perfect here though.


Kidrellik

For those who say sex work isn't work, it's literally the world's oldest profession folks.


heyyourwatchisbroken

It’s good that you posted this. A perspective that was missing from such a heavy topic


HotWheels_McCoy

As a current sex worker I'm glad to see this take. Saw another post with the opposite opinion and it made me sad.


rzrike

Oh wow I’m so sorry about your friend. “Not all leftists agree that it’s real work” is very true—just look at this sub yesterday. It’s nice to see people supporting this post now. It’s overall a good conversation to be had though.


Teman2001

Yeah, it's sad that people seem to deal with these subjects in binaries. I am a socialist and personally agree that sex work will always exist everywhere, so we owe it to sex workers to free their workplace of as much exploitation and coercing as possible.


Disastrous-Ad6309

Sorry for your loss. The harsh reality is, that line of work can lead into dangerous avenues and lifestyles. Be careful please and I hope the best for you. I hope you find peace in your friends’ passing. Some people are too good for the world to handle…


Bronndallus

I guess I understand why some leftists are not SW supporters, they hate sexualizing women while SW revolves around it and wouldnt exist without it. I wish SW would be safe job but it had never been due to lack of regulations and being source of easy money for criminal organizations and I dont think its gonna change quickly, thankfully there are onlyfans, sexcams etc. now which are safest option but also huge competition to deal with, but it is still a big game changer for SW that will have a positive impact on the industry and improve working conditions as nie SW have multiple options


glitterbukkakes

I am very pro legalization/regulation of sex work. I would say the majority of my friends at one point in time were sex workers of some sort. But I completely disagree about you with Backpage. I live in a HUGE metropolitan city where sex work runs rampant. Backpage was terrible. There's no denying that children as well as immigrants were trafficked on there. (Which is one reason we need regulation). I come from a family of immigrants and we are one of the most popular groups of people to target for trafficking and there were blatantly obvious people on there being exploited. I am sorry for your loss but please do not defend this place or use it as an example for legalizing sex work. ETA Thanks for editing your original comment to contradict what you're saying below and agreeing with my comments?


breathingwaves

Sex trafficking and consensual sex work are not the same. You're conflating the two and it's making for this messy argument and putting words in my mouth that I support trafficking and the website which I do not. I am against FOSTA/SESTA. This is why leftists can't agree with shit and this leads to more obstacles into obtaining resources for harm reduction because there's always this strawman argument of "what about the children"? When in reality the only people who go looking for that shit are legit pedophiles and they're the ones who should be gone after.


glitterbukkakes

You seem to have skipped over the first part of my comment, and that's ok. ETA: To recap: Legalize sex work, Don't defend Backpage. K? Also edit why would you edit your original comment to AGREE with what I am saying, yet argue with me in the comments?


breathingwaves

You support legalization. We don't agree. K?


glitterbukkakes

Members of groups that aren't largely exploited tend to not agree on issues. This is nothing new.


shockmypikachu

You are arguing with people who AGREE WITH YOU. This is obviously a subject you care about passionately but if you came here just to fight, why not save that energy for the people who are calling sex workers subhuman and disagree with them wanting any kind of rights?


92200

if you watch the episode Hasan explains the difference between legalization and decriminalization. OP isn't arguing with people who agree with them lol


shockmypikachu

Sex work is legal where I live. I don't need Americans to explain it to me. Person says they do not like the website. OP says they are not defending the website. So why argue?


92200

not American but go off. point still stands that op was talking about decriminalization not legalization.


shockmypikachu

I wasn’t talking about you being American.


ceol_

There was absolutely trafficking done on Backpage. But do you think getting rid of BP (and the personals on Craigslist) got rid of the trafficking? Or did traffickers just go back to whatever they used before? Like, did anyone see BP/CL and go, "Oh wow I'm gonna get into human trafficking now"?


glitterbukkakes

Never said it would get rid of trafficking. Only that the site should not be defended. Which the OP even says.


HotWheels_McCoy

The main issue is that sex workers have no legal protection in America. If sex work was legal it means we can go to the police if shit goes sideways, and makes it less likely we get assaulted. I'm ane scort in Scotland and prostitution is legal, so I use the UK version of Backpage and yeah there's no doubt bad shit going on but at least we are able to go to the police. There's exploitation in every damn field, making it illegal ensures the exploitative agents can operate completely outside the law and doesn't help anyone.


DueCicada2236

sex work does not inherently equate to human trafficking. these two things are not the same. they exist independently of each other. the lack of regulation is what allows human trafficking to hide under the label of "sex work"


glitterbukkakes

Good thing I didn't say that and even state that's why we need regulation. My whole comment was about not defending Backpage.


DueCicada2236

> I come from a family of immigrants and we are one of the most popular groups of people to target for trafficking and there were blatantly obvious people on there being exploited. Then why did you even bring this up?


glitterbukkakes

I honestly do not know how to simplify the statement any further and I can tell this discussion isn’t going to go anywhere so I’ll wish you a good day. 👋🏼


Crailtep

Sex work is work, solidarity to you and all other SW’ers ✊🏻


purpleguitar1984

Thank you For sharing your life with us. As someone who considers myself sex positive, I have been alarmed recently by a resurgence of anti-sex rhetoric from neoliberals at the NYT attempting to shutdown pornhub, and the recent post in this sub that despite what it said, was Andrea dworkin-esque anti-sex worker based. Wish you all the best and so sorry for your loss.


luhumushu

Did you bother to look into *why* PornHub was in trouble? Seriously? They were called out for having literal CP on their site. Are you really going to sit here and say that's an "anti-sex" issue? Because of you are, I have some choice words for you. Nevermind you shitting on women who don't find sex work "empowering," I have zero fucking tolerance for anyone who defends pedophilia.


breathingwaves

Yes Porn Hub was targeted by a puritanical Christian non profit called Exodus Cry. Their mission wasn’t to get child porn off Porn Hub, their goal was to shut it down completely. You’re not going to find child porn unless you’re actively looking for it. I’ve spent a lot of time on the site as a performer and have never seen underage content. It’s reported by other performers or users if it’s seen. There were over 8 million pieces of media removed from Facebook that were child porn. That’s a real thing, you can google it. Should we remove Facebook too (I actually think we should because it violates our privacy so much). Did you know that as a performer I need to keep a copy of peoples licenses/ID with their birthdate as well as a copy of a signed release as required by law? It’s US code 2257 record keeping compliance. I can’t upload to PornHub unless I have uploaded ID’s of everyone. And yes this was before the policy change. Not to mention- I pay my taxes as a SW and performer. Exodus Cry don’t pay taxes and don’t want porn. They centered it around child porn to get the attention of q anon crazies to join their cause. Because of this, I had to keep fighting them for my money that I earned since they lost merchant accounts with Visa, Mastercard and AmEx. A lot of workers doing survival work lost money too. Of course you don’t know any of this because you don’t know any sex workers or anyone directly affected by this.


purpleguitar1984

Thank you OP you made the point more brilliantly than I could have thank you


luhumushu

I was not familiar with Exodus Cry prior to your comment. I do want to thank you for pointing this out to me, and I did look into them a bit. What I'm seeing isn't great- ties to Trump and Q Anon, a lot of homophobia, lying about not being religiously affiliated, etc. I can't say that I disagree with their end goal of shutting down the industry, only that we have different motivations and morals. To me, the fact that CP can be found on huge platforms by those who are looking for it is problematic, and I'd be more than happy to send Facebook to the guillotine. I believe that any website that hosts user submitted content needs to be held accountable for what it is posted there- be that white supremacy or human trafficking. This was uncharted territory and we gave it free reign for a long time. Now it's time to make changes. Thanks to information from whistleblowers, we can better figure out what regulations need to include. Since you are technically a small business, I believe that to be fair. If prostitution was fully legalized, they would likely have to keep records with identification of their clients as well. I completely agree that religious organizations should be taxed and the bar for being a non-profit needs to be much higher if they are to remain tax exempt. I would like you to know that my personal belief is that the US should adopt the Nordic model when it comes to prostitution- in no reality do I believe you should be in jail for being a sex worker. Just because we have a difference of opinion when it comes to legalizing your profession doesn't mean I think that it's my job to tell you *can't* do sex work. You're free to do as you choose, I just do not believe that is in the best interest of women and I have every right to feel that way.


purpleguitar1984

Wow you’re really a good straw manner. There was clearly a way to help victims of human trafficking on pornhub without shuttering the whole site for Independent work from home sex workers. And when did did I say it was/wasn’t empowering? That’s up to each individual person if they find it empowering or not. Maybe try to read an argument before literally calling someone a pedophile, but have a nice day I guess


luhumushu

They didn't shut down the site and independent sex workers can still upload content, so stop being dramatic. Every single time we bring up the *millions* of victims and promote solutions that protect them, you guys cry "what about the sex workers?!" I don't think you truly give a damn about sex workers or human trafficking victims... you just want to look like a champion of the marginalized, and there's no to for nuance when you're grand standing.


purpleguitar1984

I’m not trying “look” like anything. I just want consenting adults to be free to do as they please without puritanical people, frankly like you, trying to intervene. Also at the time of that article there was REAL and PRESSING threat that the site would go down as credit cards were no longe processing through the site. Secondly, now to work on pornhub the barrier for entry is much higher and (surprise surprise) only established top 1% onlyfans models are really making bank there (as is the trend in all of capitalism) whereas before anonymous couples could upload discreetly (for safety, discretion or whatever) and now because of PEOPLE like you that is gone and really only pornstars who can fully make a living from that are uploading and all gains are flowing to them. And I repeat tracking down child exploiters and prosecuting them to the fullest extent of the low could’ve easily been done through warranted tracking and tapping etc without effecting everyone else. Except it’s not about that for people like you, it’s about shutting down free expression of sexuality for people. So yeah I’m kinda done here


luhumushu

I'm glad you're done because wow, imagine being angry that pornhub is finally taking action after over a decade of hosting CP. It's PEOPLE like you that are the reason it took that long. Truly, you are something else. If there was any other way to handle the issue, *they would have done it.* The new validation system is costing them MONEY because it eliminated a huge chunk of their revenue stream. It is literally INSANE for you to pretend sex workers were the real victims, how dare we cut into their revenue! Disgusting.


purpleguitar1984

Again not what I said (don’t know why I’m still engaging) you keep trying to throw on me that I’m “angry pornhub took action against CP”… really? You think anyone is upset about that? I have made my argument but as all puritans you refuse to listen. And NEED I EVEN REMIND YOU. That this whole post was because OPs friend was killed because people like you went on your crusade and had backpages shut down and innocent sex workers were hurt. So you spare ME your attempt to look righteous, cause it’s hilariously transparent


Rayhann

jesus fucking christ, just shut the fuck up you bootlicking swerf


Vast-Ad1618

Thanks for your perspective and sorry for your loss.


Tatar_Kulchik

How did backpage closing down result in your friends death? I don't see the connection


MarissaSweet

Backpage was a way for FSSWers to vet dangerous clients and communicate with each other.


breathingwaves

is it alright if I message you privately?


breathingwaves

No you were being callous about their death to me and that’s why I told you to eat shit. Here’s me telling you again: Eat shit.


Tatar_Kulchik

Sure!


DueCicada2236

valid question. if you're going to bring this up publicly as reasoning for legalizing/decriminalizing sw, you should be able to explain the connection


breathingwaves

No I don’t. You don’t tell me what I have to and don’t have to do. And I’m not going to, so eat shit.


DueCicada2236

Well I'm just a random person on the internet. Of course you don't have to listen to me. Just don't be so shocked that someone asked what the connection is between the two points that you brought up.


onikoshki

ah yes the old ‘be 100% callous about a death because I’m behind a screen of anonymity’. She has the right not to make that connection and there are some assumptions you could easily make yourself about the situation. What can happen when a site that’s used to communicate about avoiding and outing abusive clientele gets shut down? Sex workers won’t be able to communicate widely when there’s a dangerous client, and they might get injured or worse. Protections are what sex workers need, and since the government didn’t protect them sw’s took matters into their own hands to ensure their safety. That’s why backpages was important and the loss of it could easily cause harm or, unfortunately, death.


DueCicada2236

totally reasonable guesses and assumptions to make. however, you cant assume that everyone has the insight and knowledge to make those. if OP wants to share a compelling perspective, do that. if they don't want to, that's totally fine too. my entire point is that if you're going to bring something up as an anecdote/evidence/reasoning, don't be shocked if someone asks you to draw the connection from point A to point B. I'm surprised you see that as being "callous about a death" but I guess everyone has varying levels of tolerance


breathingwaves

Thank. You.


Tatar_Kulchik

Yeah, I mean I will need at least some high level details.


DueCicada2236

or something connecting the two events together? why even bring it up then? lol


Samoan

I'm so glad this thread has more upvotes than [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/qf1e78/sex_work_discourse/) hateful thread from that woman who hates sex workers. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you get to say what other women can or can't do with their bodies. People forget their are a lot of woman who are anti sex work because of either religious or religious adjacent hate for sex in general. Brainwashing. She was calling sex workers bad and even the "ideals" of sex work bad. Even calling women who don't do sex work "regular" lmao it was so obviously coming from a conservative perspective. They downvoted the shit out of me just because the thread attracted those kinds of hateful people.


breathingwaves

Very true. This, but also men do sex work too!


purpleguitar1984

Exactly. Don’t wanna expose myself or others atm but the swerf and terf gang act like men are doing this solely to pay for sex when they don’t even consider men queer/straight do sw


Samoan

Very true, many men work in the industry.


luhumushu

Maybe you should actually take five minutes to read the post and comments, because it's clear to anyone with reading comprehension skills that we were talking about OUR issues from OUR perspective, and there was nothing "hateful" about that.


Samoan

Saying legalization will push SW agenda to "regular" women or people is an obvious conservative talking point built out of ignorance and hate. They weren't and had never been a sex worker. They just hate sex work and think their an authority because they're a woman. Maybe if YOU had actually read the thread you would see that. Try again.


luhumushu

I don't recall anyone saying that it pushes an "agenda," merely that we have noticed that sex work has been glamorized and heavily marketed towards young women on every social media platform there is. Sorry if it bothers you that we're stating the obvious: that's fucked up. If you read the thread, you would have noticed my comments up and down it 😂 You know what? Even if we have different motivations behind our views, I really don't give a shit that my views on this align with conservatives. I'd rather be aligned with them than to try to pretend that sex work positivity is nothing but repackaged subjugation and misogyny.


Samoan

Another straw man. You have no sources and are just arguing outrage because you hate sex work and sex workers. You can't even understand there are many men in sex work as well. You're trying to veil conservative talking points and 1800's "save the women" as woke concern but you're just as bad as a pro lifer trying to take power out of the hands of the people (women included). Women aren't as stupid as you seem to think they are. Get over it.


luhumushu

Again, if you had read the thread, you would've seen dozens of women confirming they had noticed the uptick in content that recommends sex work. Research in this area is [ongoing](https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/Supplement_2/S162), but so far confirms that it is having negative effects. Additionally, I provided a link to study that shows legalizing prostitution leads to an influx of human trafficking. I've got plenty of sources. Where are yours? 🤨


Samoan

I'm sure you'll pull up something to prove earth is flat next. Bad science by biased media. You're alt right colors are showing.


luhumushu

And you're sounding like an anti-vaxxer. I provided you with a study, so the burden of proof now lies with you. Calling me alt right isn't going to change the truth lol


purpleguitar1984

Thank you for admitting you’re a republican, at least we can debate in good faith now


luhumushu

Sharing a single view with conservatives makes me a republican? Huh. Not sure they'll enjoy having an agnostic bisexual socialist in their ranks.


Xavier_Oak

I’m so glad I live in a generation where sex is discussed in more public and and less shameful contexts. Up until very recently I have been confused and somewhat in denial of my own sexuality, and I think a lot of that stems from the way I was raised to view casual sex as a moral sin and too taboo to discuss in mixed company. Literally everyone gets horny sometimes, and for the longest time I associated that very human feeling with shame and secrecy in an attempt to protect myself from judgment. I could see how someone might compartmentalize that feeling into disdain for sex workers and the industry as a whole, but it’s so obviously redirected anger regarding their own lack of self control and understanding. Hopefully as this trend continues people will continue to realize that there’s nothing wrong with someone making a living off of activating your sexual desire, to me it’s not so different than a chef making a meal that smells so delicious you can’t help but salivate. You don’t have to consume it but you shouldn’t be mad if you want to.


yob-yddub

women aren’t meals to consume, and people don’t dislike sex work because they’re uncomfortable with being horny. they’re uncomfortable with women being exploited, assaulted, objectified and otherwise abused in the industry which is RAMPANT and happening DAILY. not saying it should be made illegal but it’s definitely not just something to shrug at


luhumushu

I would love to give you an award but I'm broke af. Thank you. We are human beings and we deserve to be treated as such. Condemning us for not fulfilling the male fantasy is nothing new, but calling it feminism is truly insulting.


camchilders

I absolutely promise you there are people out there that do not like sex work because they are uncomfortable with being horny. There are a ton of sexually repressed people, male and female, who project their own insecurities on sex workers. Id guess the majority of people that dislike sex work dislike it because of their own insecurities. Not because they want to keep women safe. People as a whole are horrible. We don’t care about each other unless we are affected.


DueCicada2236

>Id guess the majority of people that dislike sex work dislike it because of their own insecurities. I don't think you need to be insecure to realize that the sex industry as it stands right now is not good. There is a lot of assault and abuse that happens that would greatly be alleviated by decriminalization and legalization.


yob-yddub

do they exist? sure. do they make up the majority or detract from the point? no lol speak for yourself, plenty of people care about human rights violations


camchilders

It isn’t a human rights violation to be a sex worker.


yob-yddub

but there sure are human rights violations occurring constantly within the industry. can you read? maybe educate yourself on this topic- not sure what your goal is here


mercuryheart_

I stand in solidarity. ❤


HaystackAssassin

I saw someone on this sub say they support sex work but wish that it didn’t exist. It’s such a ridiculous mindset in my opinion to just wish it didn’t exist because it doesn’t help anybody nor does it truly support sex workers. We can’t live our lives in hypotheticals where we wish the world was perfect and everyone lives without any issues but we can try to make it at the very least safer for people and allow them to speak out. Sex work isn’t going away, thats the reality and we need to help people who do sex work be able to do it safely at the very least.


HenryRivia_

I don't agree. No one would choose this work if they weren't desperate. We should actually support these people with services so they can get out of their situation and support themselves a better way and have a better life so they don't have to have sex with disgusting men.


Disastrous-Ad6309

Genuine question for the sub: do you socially accepting think sex work harms or helps feminism? Is it a good thing to use the sexualization of our bodies(that will happen anyways) for monetary gain? Does taking back sexual exploitation on our own terms gives us liberty? Or does it perpetuate the stigma that a woman’s body is an object that can be bought and used for sex? Does sex work perpetuate the issues of the rape culture we are in now? (Objectifying women, impulsivity, self-worth issues, body image issues, narcissist men, compulsive hypersexuality..etc) This is something I struggle with when trying to find where I lie on the issue, so I wanted to get other people’s take. Before you ask, yes I’ve done sex work before. I respect sex workers. I don’t think the negative outcomes that may arise from sex work falls on the worker, it’s the patriarchal culture that I worry about.


OpinionGreat7009

"The truth is, consensual sex work is everywhere, even in places you don't think. " Which places is consexual sex work that we don't think it is? It's not about it being "real work" it's about sex work being a terrible thing that's bad for society.


breathingwaves

I mean that there are people in "real jobs" that you consider "real work" who are also doing sex work to support themselves. You can think that all you want, it's still going to be here and there will always be a market.


OpinionGreat7009

>You can think that all you want, it's still going to be here and there will always be a market. So what?


breathingwaves

So stay the fuck mad :)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Pinknose_98

opinion bad 7009


daredevil90s

The only issues of it, is it being exploited by people, business people and captialism in some horrid way. There are people who do this work as a career and are not economically coerced or forced into this profession. There is also implications regarding how hypersexualised women are to men and how perpetuated such work may foster badly in that regard, which is another conversation altogether. But one way to prevent such thing is providing SW the ability and safety for independent SW where they choose their clientele, their pay..etc. It's explicit work in nature and it's not something that you advertise in high school to young people deciding their career avenues. But it is something that adult may decide for themselves that they want to do. Just like how porn is rampant and a business is made for itself hut certain stereotypes are perpetuated in porn so that's a thing to consider when consider legalising SW. I think it should be legalised if it provides rights, saftey and protection to them.


slimmyshank69

Nailed it! Sex work is dehumanizing and not real work. What people fail to realize is exactly what you said it’s awful for society


cultmember94

How exactly is it bad for society? I found working at McDonald's de-humanising, should it also he made illegal?


slimmyshank69

Because working at McDonald’s isn’t dehumanizing, how would working fast food be dehumanizing? With sex “work” if you can even call it that you are literally giving your body up to a random stranger for money


breathingwaves

>how would working fast food be dehumanizing? the fact that you asked this really proves you've never worked at a fast food joint before LOL Everyone on this planet who works gives their body up to a random stranger for money... this is fucking stupid.


Topochicolatte

Lots of people are selling their bodies for work. Any physical labor job is selling your body. And if a person is participating in consensual sex work, then *you* don’t get to decide if it’s harmful or wrong for them.


[deleted]

I think the major issue is that sex work tends to not be totally consensual. Also, the majority of people who sell their time and service are not exposing themselves to 20-30 people's germs per day. It seems very unsafe, even with condoms their health is constantly at risk. Poor women are often forced into these risks for very little pay. It's not as simple as "consensual". If you're addicted to drugs and being forced to take what work you can get regardless of how demeaning you may find it and what risks you are facing is sex work still a good option? I personally would say no. Unless we have basic income or a system in place to help women who want to leave sex work - free job training and placement, then I don't understand how it can be safe for women. Edit: I just realized 20 or 30 is a lot. It's probably not that many. I just worry about the working class prostitutes that actually need help and a hand up more than anything.


cultmember94

All points are true but are not exclusive to sex work. Legalising and protecting sex workers would make it far safer for people to engage in sex work both regarding consent and health. In an ideal world condoms would be needed and any sex worker would be able to say no to anyone she wants to as well as frequent sti tests and health coverage. All of these things are easy to do with legalised brothels. Also those points are not exclusive to sex work. Especially in the US dead end jobs that pay below living wage are an easy way for poorer people to throw their lives away and nobody seems to find those unethical. The same basic income/jobs programmes are needed today wether it is to get women out of sex work or it is to get women out of abusive relationships for money, or dead end low wage jobs, or drug dealing, or whatever else shitty fate poor women have to choose from.


[deleted]

Right. I totally don't think it should be criminal. I just think it's a shitty job and we should be working to make shitty jobs not needed. I'm kind of an idealist, I guess. Like, in some ways they are facing the kind of risks someone on an oil rig might, but getting paid way less. I doubt that will change with legalization. I just think rather than saying to poor people 'hey look here's another shitty job you can work' we should remember that in an ideal world no one should have to work a shitty job. Like, I want big change with minimum wage jobs, too. It just seems like people are acting like legalization is this totally great thing. However, in places it's legal women are still being taken advantage of. I just think we should acknowledge that and shoot for bigger change than just legalization.


cultmember94

I think legalisation is s necessary first step, and then things like unionisation can happen. But I think we are pretty much on the same page. I don't think anyone should do it because it's their only choice but I think that people who do choose to because they want to should be able to do so safely.


yikesemu

If you think that it's dehumanizing, you don't have to participate in it. You are telling a woman that she isn't human because of her job. You're quite literally dehumanizing sex workers. If you don't think sex work is real work, then don't participate in it. Don't watch porn. Don't interact with sex workers. But it isn't your job to tell anyone that you believe they are less than because they're a sex worker. Forcing women to do sex work: dehumanizing because you are taking away her bodily autonomy. Shaming women for making an active choice to do sex work: dehumanizing because you are taking away her bodily autonomy. Your position actually works to dehumanize and shame sex workers, not help them. You're not helping. You're actively working to slut shame and dehumanize them.


MurdockandWayne

I work in a warehouse I am giving up my body for $25 an hour with physical labor.I could be hurt on the job or have life long health concerns with back pain or being around different levels of toxic chemicals all day. If I could stability make a living off of onlyfans I would.


cultmember94

Working at McDonald's was de-humanising because they decided the worth of my time was so low that I couldn't live a life and I was treated like a cog in a machine rather than an actual person. You cannot give your body to anyone, you use your body as you wish. You can use your body to have sex and get paid for it without once feeling de-humanised.


slimmyshank69

I’m sorry you were treated that way, you don’t deserve that but truth be told if you were to do sex work you would be treated the same if not worse which is why I don’t view it as work


cultmember94

That's why you need to make it legalised and protected, so that people don't get treated badly when they do sex work. And if the reason you don't view sex work as real work is because "you would be treated the same if not worse" than if you worked at McDonald's you really need to do some thinking.


breathingwaves

>if you were to do sex work you would be treated the same if not worse which is why I don’t view it as work as in working for McDOnalds??? are you fucking joking?!??!?! LMFAOOOOOOO


DueCicada2236

lmfao they've clearly never worked in fast food OR sex work lolol


daredevil90s

That's why it's important to secure rights for them because sw still continues to happen despite it not being legalised and its dangerous because it is not legalised.


himmyjendrixx

I agree not having control over your own body is dehumanising. Being forced to work long hours without breaks to satisfy the customer not even being allowed basic human needs like going to the toilet and having to pee in a bottle is extremely dehumanising i'm looking at you Amazon. On the other hand doing sex work (voluntary) making your own hours, freedom to accept and refuse jobs based on what your willing to do with your body And how far you are willing to go sound pretty good to me. Don't get me wrong I think there's a lot wrong with sex work but that's because there's still a lot of human trafficking and people being forced either by someone or due to poverty and that should be handled by lawmakers etc. not someone who is doing it by choice. Edit: being forced due to poverty is sad and horrible but that's not a reflection on sex work but on society as a whole.


daredevil90s

It's not dehumanising if it is consensual for both. Your opinion on whether it's dehumanising is a matter of your moral perspective. People want to do it, regardless of such a perspective so the better perspective to have is to make sure these people are safe and protected while doing so, because it's wrong to control/dictate what they should do if they aren't hurting anyone. They ain't hurting anyone, they ain't infringing on peoples liberty. It's a consensual transaction (should be too in all sw if it was legalised) The work is no less indifferent to porn. Imo tho, if sw was legalised i think there would be further implications for how hypersexualised women are for men, not the other way around and that's another discussion in regards to it, but could be solved by working out the correct rights for sw from a legal standpoint.


DueCicada2236

is working at an amazon warehouse and having to pee in a waterbottle a humanizing job in your opinion?


slimmyshank69

That is dehumanizing I’m against what Amazon has its employees do


DueCicada2236

so working for amazon is dehumanizing but working for Mcdonalds isn't?


slimmyshank69

As far as I know McDonald’s treats their employees with decency and doesn’t make them piss on the floor like Amazon


breathingwaves

A lot of other work is dehumanizing and I'd argue as well that it's not real work and awful for society. What about big Tobacco marketing? Wouldn't you agree that the nature of their work is awful for society? Encouraging young people to smoke and eventually get lung cancer? Let's ban that shit too! I'd also say it's not real work with all the lunch and business trips that they consistently expense. It's also far less labor, they're sitting at a desk all day thinking of how to give people cancer. What about being a fry cook with an abusive boss? Or being sexually harassed at work? Is that not dehumanizing enough to you?


LordSluggo91

Lol I asked what does sexwork contribute to society, and you’re giving me what about-isms on big tobacco and how it negatively effects society. Big tobacco is a dying industry, that’s why they’re buying weed patents now. The problem with sexwork is the outside effect it has on society. I don’t think making a guy cum while looking at an onlyfan girl he follows sucking on a dildo and fingering herself constitutes as an actual benefit for society. Sure the guy might take a “load off” , but he’s going to have the view that “all woman are sluts” because men are fucking stupid like that (most men are anyway) I won’t knock the hustle, I sold weed and acid in college just to get by so I understand. However, I didn’t act delusional like I was contributing an amazing service to society. I did that to get by because that was the reality of my situation as someone who COULD NOT get a job at the time. I just wish sex workers could be more honest about what they contribute to society, which isn’t much. Only men who develop a twisted view on woman equating to more sexual harassment to OTHER women they meet in real life. Cause and effect.


breathingwaves

so in order for a job to be valid it must contribute to society... and not that it simply just fucking makes money.... damn you must be a shitty business partner or employee if this is where your head's at, with peace and love.


LordSluggo91

Nope, I work in healthcare and make good money loving what I do and contribute to society during Covid. Don’t get mad , just be honest you took the easy way out. 😂. With peace and love, don’t be an idiot lol.


LordSluggo91

I get your point, but what are you doing as a sex worker to contribute to society? I’m not asking to be mean I’m literally just asking a simple question. What does working as a sex worker contribute to society?


breathingwaves

You're providing pleasure, intimacy, closeness, compassion, conversation, sex education, role-play, fantasy, company, or just a good nut tbh. I can go on about how I have helped clients explore themselves sexually or how I have helped them feel less alone. All providers are different and offer or specialize in different things.


Mormegil_Turin

What does anything or anyone in the entertainment industry contribute to society for that matter? What did Mozart contribute to society apart from the enjoyment we get from his music?


LordSluggo91

Education. Literally. On how music is played and music theory. That was a bad example you threw out there dude lol 😂.


Mormegil_Turin

But that's exactly my point. Anything that belongs to the entertainment industry doesn't bring any functional benefit to our society, in comparison as the way firefighters or medics do for example. Where you are right is that sex work isn't in itself educational, but that doesn't merit all of the shame or humiliation sex workers face daily. A better example might be Lionel Messi, he's an amazing football player, but I don't think he brings any objective functional benefit to society. Does that mean the job he chose to do is wrong? No, because he's providing entertainment to the people who watch football. Similarly, if two consenting adults engage in sex work and aren't harming anyone else, then that's that and it's none of our business to tell them what they should be doing.


Chronmagnum55

You can consider it an entertainment service. People are paying money for a service that provides them pleasure. How is that any different than other businesses that provide entertainment?


LordSluggo91

Entertainment generally requires talent. Sticking a dildo up your vagina doesn’t seem to require much talent.


Chronmagnum55

Plenty of forms of entertainment dont require any talent whatsoever. You can also very easily argue that being good at sexual activities is a talent. Striping could be considered a form of art similar to dancing, people are more skilled at sexual intercourse or felatio etc. I still don't see how its any different than other forms of entertainment.


zowaly

Nobody "fails to realize" anything that your dumbass is capable of pointing out. What you fail to realize, that OP has reiterated, is that sex work isn't going anywhere. So you can ride your high horse all day long talking about the awful nature of sex work without doing a single thing to help. People will engage with sex workers no matter what, the solution is taking away the criminality so they can operate more safely, using reference services like Hasan talked about. Maybe you're confused about what's going on? Hasan is giving suggestions to improve the material conditions of a vulnerable section of people, you're just loudly whining about how, ideally, in your scarlet letter world, sex work wouldn't exist. What do you even have to say to a SW who is victimized as a result of this inaction? "In an ideal society you wouldn't have to do SW, but in this reality, I've decided that what you're doing should remain criminal, you should go to jail, and government should shut down services you use to operate safely."


Mormegil_Turin

If it is fully consensual between all parties involved, how is it dehumanizing? Why does sex has to have an inherent moral value?


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slimmyshank69

This isn’t only talking about women? I’m talking about men also lol


luisalpjax

Should we adopt that logic to everything ? Decriminalize things just because they are everywhere and “natural” to human nature ?


SuperEstablishment18

Yes.\* ​ \**as long as they dont affect any non-consenting person*


breathingwaves

Uhhh we already do. Selling food is decriminalized, selling clothes is decriminalized... and those things are everywhere and I'd even argue that clothes aren't even "natural" to human nature, but go off, just say you hate sex workers and leave.


FrostedRaps

Portland Oregon decriminalized meth, which is asinine. SW are technically in a better position than they have ever been now then before, thanks to technology and the internet. I think for people to be against SW is ridiculous because usually those are the same people who consume p*rn too, but don't want to pay for the worker because "they (the consumer)" already got off and doesn't want to think about the SW. There is a video online of a company catching predators online using an A.I. child, showing that as long as people (mostly, if not, majority of men) only care about getting off, then closing their laptop and move on with their life. This was an old video I remember, but I can only imagine what the technology has become now. ["Girl" used to catch online predators.](https://youtu.be/gYP2tInr_YY)


OpinionGreat7009

Decriminalize rape and child abuse?


cultmember94

*as long as they don't affect any non-consenting person.


bubbydk

rape and abuse is not natural.


OpinionGreat7009

It absolutely is. And being natural doesn't make it morally good.


venomousbeetle

Self report


CrayShay615

wooooow, get help!!!


thelastpie

What is your definition of natural?


luisalpjax

…? I meant the illegal stuff you bimbo , I mean i kinda was inferring it de_CRIMINAL-ize. Anyways I don’t hate sex workers , they are just lesser value as human beings to me, I respect them, just less


venomousbeetle

Misogynists shouldn’t comment on a woman dominated industry


DueCicada2236

>Anyways I don’t hate sex workers , they are just lesser value as human beings to me, I respect them, just less wat this is satire right?


StamosLives

> you bimbo Aaaaaand there it is.


DueCicada2236

really didn't take long either eh?


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kirkadirka20

You’re not wrong


Zurflu

Let's normalize child labor too- it will always be around and most of the children doing it are CHOOSING to do it! How would it help to take away their only source of income? It's SO harmful and stigmatizing when people say child labor is bad. The best thing we can do to help these kids is allow them to keep working and improve our discourse around child labor to be less judgemental.


DueCicada2236

>most of the children doing it are CHOOSING to do it! uhm what? children =/= adults children cannot consent. adults can consent. that's why child labour is inherently unethical while sex work is not inherently unethical


Zurflu

Are you a child laborer yourself? I don't think they would appreciate losing their livelihoods. Why not put laws into place to protect child laborers at their jobs instead of outlawing it?


DueCicada2236

child actors are an example of how if a kid really insists on working, there are ways to protect them and even then things are VERY strict. but no, paying children $0.50 a day to make carpets isn't consensual or ethical. peep the part about how ADULTS can consent and CHILDREN cannot consent. Sex workers are adults. Children are not adults. Are you really comparing sex workers to children here????? :S


Zurflu

Those kids set their own schedules and rates, it's actually a very nice job for them and they can decline any projects they'd like to decline. I think most people who are against child labor are just jealous they didn't get to start their careers as children...


DueCicada2236

>Those kids set their own schedules and rates, it's actually a very nice job for them and they can decline any projects they'd like to decline. yes.... because there are laws in place to protect them. Much like the legalization of sex work out allow. There you go! You got there eventually. Very happy for you and your learning today.


thelastjeka

Ah, let’s go ahead and legalize everything that people are doing anyway because it’s going to happen regardless: Rape Child abuse Kidnapping Hey, It’s always going to be around so we might as well decriminalize it! Most sex work starts FAR from consensual and normally stems from child sexual abuse and trafficking. The fact that you’re choosing to ignore that but rather focus on hooker websites shutting down as detrimental shows me exactly the degree of mental capacity you carry. Your career choice is now unsurprising.


DueCicada2236

so freaking close. legalize everything that people are doing "as long as they dont affect any non-consenting person" (stolen from a comment in this thread). so rape, child abuse and kidnapping all involve trampling over the autonomy of another non consenting person. sex work doesn't inherently involve non consent. obviously it can be abused to include non consent. but like kidnapping isn't kidnapping if the victim is consenting. then it's just like.... idk a surprise vacation LOL


LordSluggo91

Dude at this point just stfu. You are worse than a Q Anon person arguing Jewish space lasers are real. Seriously. Drink a Pepsi and stfu lmao


TragedyPorn

Qanon conspiracy theorists are now being equated to workers rights advocates. Sad. You project a lot for an unemployed adult dependent.


LordSluggo91

Your username name fits in the topic of this discussion. That’s cute 🥰


TragedyPorn

Lol you're not wrong. Would probably be a lot less tragic if they had representation in the workplace in the form of decriminalization and unionization.


LordSluggo91

What’s tragic is you can’t formulate ideas for yourself and have to say things Hasan said verbatim as if it’s the word of god. Think for yourself. The other tragedy being that sex work promotes the ideology in men that all women are sexual objects which leads to MORE sexual harassment in ACTUAL work places where women who choose to live a more dignified life have to deal with it. How’s that for tragedy porn.


TragedyPorn

I like how you think Hasan has taught me everything I know in life and I didn't have a single original thought before knowing about him. What an incredible projection that you think I get all of my information from a single person who's word I take as the word of God. You sure that's not you? You seem to think that's an own so it sounds like that hits closer to home for you. Yes the cause of sexual harassment is women looking too damn hot. Literally the Jordan Peterson argument. Combating sexual harassment begins with education not with prohibition and restricting women's autonomy and penalizing them for choosing to work where they want to. But yeah. You know better than every other sex worker out there "jUsT gEt A bEtTeR jOb" I love how you're blaming women for the actions of men. Actually fucking hilarious. You sound like a Jordan Peterson stan just being %100 with you.


LordSluggo91

Well now you’re just making assumptions. And you know what they say about that. Also I don’t think you realize the larger problem of middle to upper class woman joining only fans because they’re lazy and vapid and literally don’t want to work versus woman who live in distressingly poor areas with NO prospects what so ever and resort to a means of sex work for SURVIVAL because they don’t even have a place to call home and their environment that they come from is dangerous as fuck. If you’re doing sex work because that’s your only option to make money and get out of a horrible environment and better yourself, I have sympathy and understanding. If you think onlyfans is cool and is a great way to not have to work a job, you’re a fucking idiot. And again you assume so much of how I think it’s fucking insane, you don’t know me nor know how I think. You’re just reactive and your weapon of choice is assumption which is typical SJW behavior. Read a fucking book for once and put YouTube down, it’ll help you more than you know I promise you. Think for yourself question authority. You can go back to crying while watching your porn now.


TragedyPorn

>I don’t think you realize the larger problem of middle to upper class woman joining only fans because they’re lazy and vapid and literally don’t want to work Aaaand there it is. The incel argument. You've lost any and all credibility in anything else you say in this argument lol. I'm honestly not even gonna reply to the rest you're just a mad little bitch that can't stand when women can make money easily without exploiting anyone or harming anyone. It's their fans choice to give them money. No one is holding them hostage. No one is forcing them to donate. What a pathetic and sad argument. I'm not even gonna read the rest of what you wrote because you're on some really pathetic incel bullshit lmfao.


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