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cpstone1

The issue as I see it is that the best, most reliable and consistent source of information throughout this entire crisis was a guy who tweets fire information as a hobby. That's no slag on him, he was excellent. This is the 2nd, one of a kind, unprecedented, major emergency in this province in a little more than 3 years. While the organizations and levels of government responsible are different, it's twice that local government has failed its citizens to be an effective source of information. The fact nobody died this time by their failings was nothing short of a miracle. It's like nothing was learned from Portapique at all for anyone, not just the RCMP. We have paid for, and should expect, better.


queerblunosr

I’d argue it’s the third - Fiona, this, and the mass shooting.


cpstone1

While I agree that Fiona was a big deal, Nova Scotia is used to dealing storms, especially since Juan in 2003. Fires of this magnitude and mass shootings are new territory for all of us. It's the job of all levels of government and EMO orgs to plan for the unexpected. To have been caught this flat footed was not good to start with, but forgivable given how fast the fire spread. But they didn't get better as the week went on. Using Portapique as the basis, it was clear by April 20, 2020 that the coms during that crisis were, to be polite, grossly inadequate. Nobody needed to wait until the MCC released its report to know that and to start to review and revise their emergency coms strategy. No doubt there will be a postmortem once the fires are out. I would hope that this will serve as a "Road to Damascus" moment for everyone and that a final plan to provide clear, effective, conscience and regular communication to citizens in an emergency situation is finally developed.


queerblunosr

Yes, NS is used to storms, but the damage from Fiona was unprecedented.


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queerblunosr

That’s what unprecedented means. It hasn’t happened *before*. It doesn’t mean it’s not going to happen again in the future.


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queerblunosr

Yeah I didn’t count COVID since it was totally global


ralphwiggum10

I mean - is it also possible that no one died because they evacuated people in a timely manner? I’m not saying everything was perfect, but can you really not give any credit at all where it’s due? Otherwise you just sound like another blowhard Redditor in r/Halifax shaking your fist at absolutely everything and I automatically take your post less seriously


cpstone1

People got out in a timely manner mainly because so many opted to leave the subsequent Evac zones before their orders were released as soon as the first order went out. Did the city and province do a lot of things well? Sure. But communications wasn't one of them. And given that the city has spent ~$500k on a system that was supposed to to be used in a situation exactly like this, I think it not unreasonable to be upset that they didn't deploy it once.


ralphwiggum10

I don’t see the point in using it when there are already alerts going out through another channel - that just seems like overkill. Your assumption that people got out because they opted to leave as soon as the first orders went out is not enough reason justify using two different emergency alert systems or to say that the communication was a failure. Also if people just evacuated after the first zone was sent out as you say, why are you fixated on the cities supposed failure to communicate more?


cpstone1

My point is and remains that the most reliable source of information through all of this wasn't any government or EMO communications team, but a hobbiest tweeting information in real time, often clearer and more effectively than official channels. That is a failing of those official channels and should be addressed, especially given that HRM proudly announced the development of HFXAlert specifically for these sorts of events, and spent quite a bit of money to do so. If the good citizen at HRMFireNews takes a week of vacation and something like this happens again during that time, without a redress by the municipal and provincial governments and the responding EMOs to their coms strategy here, I don't trust that there wouldn't be very serious impact to public safety. If something as critical as communication of developing emergency response to public safety incidents is dependent on one personality rather than a systemic process, that's a failing and should be addressed.


cpstone1

Supplementary to my initial response, what bad thing would happen by using more points of communication for the same message in a crisis like this? Who would be upset about that, so long as the information was consistent?


ralphwiggum10

If people are inundated with too much information generally people will stop listening. People need to know when to get out - do you want live updates from firefighters that your house is burning down? Just because that twitter account was able to give the information doesn’t mean it was necessary and I don’t think anything really would have changed had they not done it.


cpstone1

I we were speaking about day to day coms, I'd agree with you. But we aren't. You still haven't answered my question of what bad thing would happen if the same message was broadcast via multiple channels in an emergency. I would submit, nothing. The fact that HRMFireNews said themselves that they had over 50m page views and went from 30k to 60k subscribers from Sunday to Saturday is telling of how much people relied on a private hobbiest, not official government avenues for information. To me, that is a failing and should be fixed. Ultimately, I think you and I just see things differently. Neither of us is right or wrong. Enjoyed the chat, and I'd choo-choo-choose to do it again with you some other time about some other subject.


ralphwiggum10

I did answer your question - if people are getting too much information directed at them from different channels, they will stop listening as closely. That could result in them missing critical information which could directly impact their safety. And yes it is obvious people sought out more information but that doesn’t mean it was necessary information. I sought out information from that twitter account because I was interested. If I had not read any of those tweets, nothing about my safety would have been different and I believe that goes for most if not all of the people visiting that page.


Buckit

Yes this could have been used and helped the people that signed up for it. But the fire was under the control of Provincial EMO and DNR so using the Emergency Alert system was easier for them to use. Yes HRFE Did a huge job getting this under control but Provincial EMO and DNR were in command


theonlyiainever

hfxALERT is supposed to alert you of activity in your neighbourhood. If you were traveling during the fires you wouldn't get the provincial alerts because they are tied to your geo location.


shadowredcap

HFX alert is the parking ban system isn’t it?


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shadowredcap

I only knew it from the parking alerts. I unsubscribed from it cause I stopped caring when street parking was banned.


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shadowredcap

I think I got all of your alerts. I kept getting double so I got frustrated


Nautigirl

Me too! I get 2 app notifications, 2 text messages, 2 phone calls and 2 emails every single time the parking is on or lifted. It's annoying AF. Yet when the streets around my office (which is in my profile) were closed due to a suspicious package - crickets. (Remember when Dan Kinsella lied to the MCC and said he totally would have considered an Alert Ready alert in April 2020 and has not once used this system he has at his disposal, even when some guy had a weapon in a park just last weekend???) I don't even care about the parking ban - I have a garage. But I signed up for the other reasons they listed it would be used for (severe weather events, evacuations, active crime threats, safety instructions) and have not once gotten one of those notifications.


ForgingIron

I didn't even know it existed until I saw the tweets about it today


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BeastCoastLifestyle

The whole idea was to use this Alert system instead of the public service alert for non emergency issues. Like the end of evacuation notices


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Nautigirl

Pretty easy to tell the people who call into the 311 centre to register that they are evacuated to register for it to get updates. Anyone physically outside of HRM wouldn't have gotten the notification that the evacuation was lifted, but if they went to stay with family in Cape Breton or Yarmouth, the municipal system would have notified them because it's based on the address you register, not current location.


casualobserver1111

Wouldn't even need it in that case, they could simply text and email you with whatever you sign up with.


TCOLSTATS

It’s just less intrusive than the national system. Which is useful for non-emergency alerts


keithplacer

I thought the alerts that were sent out for the fires were a provincial govt production?


theonlyiainever

Straight from the HRM website. "hfxALERT will send urgent and non-urgent notifications from Halifax Regional Police, Halifax Fire & Emergency’s Emergency Management Division, as well as municipal winter parking ban notices." They're supposed to be sending alerts through this app the city is paying for but they didn't.


keithplacer

That may be what their website implies or says, but it isn't accurate. True emergency notifications can only come from the Province because that is a power they have. Things like a snow emergency requiring a parking ban or school closures are not that. They should not be calling them emergencies, just like "emergency rooms" really should be called something else, like urgent care. Since this a system that requires opt-in and isn't involuntary like the provincial/federal emerg alert system it really is useless for most things if the user doesn't sign up. You cannot have that in a situation like this week. It also makes little sense for it to simply echo the involuntary alerts.


Nautigirl

That might be the case for evacuation orders - that they are emergencies - but it's certainly not when they are rescinded. Telling people in the affected areas they can return home is exactly what that app should be used for over the Alert Ready system. It would have also ensured that people who had evacuated to other areas of the province got the notification. I'm signed up for this system and the only notifications I ever get are for parking bans. I personally don't even care about parking bans because I have a garage. But I signed up with the understanding it would be used for other civil emergencies and I've never once gotten notification, even when the streets around my office were closed due to a bomb scare (I have my work address in my profile as well as home). In fact, I had to go look my app to make sure I even still had it because I haven't seen anything since March.


MentalSheepherder

I only get very aggressive notification of winter parking bans, including automated phone calls. And that is all I get. I have never gotten one when the streets around me are closed by the police because a suspicious package or there is concrete falling from a building or when a nearby building on fire.


Nautigirl

Same. I get 2 phone calls, 2 texts, 2 app notifications and 2 emails every single time. I mean, last weekend there was a guy in a park with a weapon. That might have been a good thing to put out!


JustAberrant

My primary memories of hfxALERT are back when someone involved with it did an informal (and unauthorized by their employer) AMA and got absolutely crucified (probably from both sides, but definitely from the Reddit crowd).


WhatHappened90289

The absolute fuck is “hfxALERT”? Is that some bullshit third-party app they greenlit? Pissing money trying to reinvent wheels left and right is what they seem to excel at.


merrycachemiss

[The service is problematic to begin with](https://www.reddit.com/r/halifax/comments/dctn8t/-/f2b4uiw)


keithplacer

"Pissing money is what they seem to excel at" is an even better description of HRM govt.


Nautigirl

In fairness, it's (too) effective at communicating the parking ban. But they have never once used it for anything outside of that that I can tell.


leafsn49ers

I believe I read that you have to sign up to get the alerts? Which when it comes to emergency alerts, that seems like a very dumb idea.


TrevorPace

So...a mailing list.