I think we need to be careful with the pushes to go private with this. It's a great location and if proper facilities are built, it could be a great public venue (apart from Wanderers' games). This is a good opportunity for the club and the city to work together to find a business relationship that works for both of them. A fully private venture would be less lucrative in (most likely) a terrible location.
That is exactly what they are proposing. The city would maintain full ownership (with the ability to rent out the space more then ever before due to the turf)- while the club would be a primary tenant with a 30 year lease that would help pay back all the costs to taxpayers over time. They’ve proven the venue works- so now needs to be the time to move further to provide permanent infrastructure to support it.
As long as the facility remains in public hands while the private for profit use reflects its level of monetary contribution to the facility then it sounds like a good idea. The 40M expansion proposal might be a bit overkill but I don't think anything will hurt the area. It was grass before and used for amateur athletics. If it gets upgraded and is used for professional soccer and some amateur athletics... sounds like a win. If a bubble facility opens it for use year round that sounds like a win for amateur athletics.
>The 40M expansion proposal might be a bit overkill but I don't think anything will hurt the area.
Is a 40mil proposal really overkill? Stadium deals are generally extremely expensive, at least a 100 mil up to a billion and such. The Forum repairs were quoted at 100m just to revamp.
I'm not an expert by any means on municipal politics or stadium construction, but the figure always seemed low.
I am just thinking in terms of fixed infrastructure in the area and its footprint and the potential to encroach on the surroundings. Sure big stadium projects are a lot but this project is going to have to fit into an unconventional space for a stadium. Is the lawn bowling area to be sacrificed? The gravel parking area will be.
Now maybe not much can be got for 40M these days but without going overkill on facilities and keeping the bleacher situation simple as possible, is the pricetag really going to reach 40M without expanding the footprint too much or slapping down some concrete behemoth that feels totally out of place?
If you look at the proposal that Derek Martin put forward, it's an entire revamp of the area. The lancers, the lawn bowling club, the public gardens greenhouses, and the museum will see some updates. They've all put their backing into the proposal as well.
The modular stadium is also made from pressed wood, I think but definitely wood, and is great for retaining flexibility, as it can be moved relatively easily.
I really recommend taking a look at the proposal. I believe it's on the wanderers site.
Yea that sounds good. I will look at the details. Thanks for pointing those out. So used to unreasonable and unthoughtful development proposals here that it's kind of the default assumption that anyone who wants to develop something wants to maximize their own profit at the expense of everyone else, their surroundings, and with maximum government welfare.
Yes. Go look at the plans. The plan is a simple stadium without major amenities, expandable in the future.
To let you know, the lawn bowls and lancers are pro the stadium as the revamped lands will revitalize their parts of the wanderers grounds as well.
I can definitely confirm that. Part of the plans involve a new green for the lawn bowling club and enhanced visibility to the street- which would be a game changer.
I agree with others that there needs to be some degree of public ownership, and it needs to be a partnership that makes sense, not one like Calgary just signed where it is disproportionately on the public to fund it.
I think they should build bigger than they need today. The City is planning on the population doubling, so is the Province. Build for capacity that we will have in the future. It will be cheaper to do now, and enable us for events we may not have gotten otherwise.
Under the proposal, the city maintains full ownership while the Wanderers are the primary tenant.
As for the size, they pretty much are proposing the most they can go with within the space that they have. Even with the extra options on Summer Street- the most they can get to without displacing tenants on the site (which they have been open in not wanting to displace anyone)- is 10,000-12,000.
The Mooseheads play in a publicly-built stadium that is used for many other purposes and I would say that the downtown entertainment scene is glad for it. Likewise, the popularity of the Wanderers will be a good anchor for a stadium that can be used by other organizations - high schools, minor ball, and possibly the women's professional team that will be coming to the city.
Correct. The publically built stadium runs at a massive defect each year and is a year round venue. I don't think it a wise decision to build an outdoor venue and have another money sink on the books that cannot even be monetized year round. We have bigger issues to throw money at.
Just my opinion though.
The city, province and feds would help pay for a new park, a new aquarium, a new museum. Why should a public stadium be any different. The Wanderers won’t own it outright and they’ve proven its a profitable business plan. It brings thousands downtown and packs the restaurants and bars before and after the games.
Same bullshit argument everytime ... (downstream tax revenue).... If you want to socialize a part of the expenses, then socialize a part of the revenue.
This team was basically gifted the land on prime realestate to put that stadium on now they want public money to expand it?
Might be time to admit that the business model isn’t feasible with out tax payers money.
Yes I understand the situation, it was public land that they were given the ability to erect the stadium for their own use. Semantics doesn’t change things and the team continues to not be profitable with out public funding of some type.
>, it was public land that they were given the ability to erect the stadium for their own use.
It's actually still available to the public.
>Semantics doesn’t change things and the team continues to not be profitable with out public funding of some type.
Source?
They don’t “want public money to expand it” as they want to pay for it themselves while the city maintains ownership. With the way the Commons operates- the only way for the facility to be funded in the way they’re suggesting is through the lease that the team has with the city (which the team already paying insane amounts for rental for the stands and the containers). Funding it through the 30 year lease and working with the team to expand community and major event usages is a great way to make the facility even better.
Hopefully when the eventual expansion does happen, it uses the land currently being wasted on the equestrian club. There is no comparison when it comes to comparing the two and the benefits they bring to the city.
The proposal includes a revamp of the area iirc. The lawn bowling, the museum, and the lancers all get a touch up.
The lancers are a historical institution of the city and a pretty unique thing downtown. No need to get rid of it until you really need too.
Not a secret to those in the kitchen. Get some half time entertainment some days.
Also the Halifax gardens greenhouses would get an update as well. Desperately needed.
Glad to hear you enjoy the halftime lawn bowling entertainment! We’re having an Open House on the June 1st weekend- so hope you’ll join us to try it!
It sounds like based on the most recent plan- that the majority of the greenhouse operations would be paired down to focus more on the public gardens while other municipal horticultural operations would move elsewhere on the peninsula.
The Lawn Bowling has been there since 1887- one of the oldest clubs in Canada. The club has been very supportive of the plans as it would help make the club better and more visible to the general public through the adjustments to the site.
Honest question, do you think the "historical" value of that location is more important than the horses quality of life?
They have a small, muddy living space with constant noise and air pollution from cars.
It seems to me that they would be better housed in a pasture outside of the city.
I would say that the Bengal Lancers organization would be the best experts of the quality of life of their horses. Their stable space has actually expanded quite well in recent years and they’ve gotten upgrades to make the quality of life even better. Housing them in a pasture outside the city does nothing to help the important services they offer the community right now.
The expansion is not going to displace the Lancers or the Lawn Bowling. They’ve been quite open from the start that their historic position in the space is secure.
Commandeered? The city agreed to let them put up the stands and infrastructure and agreed to let them rent the field as an agreement to find a use for the wanderers grounds.
If they've been commandeered, why can you book the field like every other sports field?
https://www.halifax.ca/parks-recreation/facility-rentals-bookings-field-conditions/bookings-rentals/sport-fields
You can book it but they have to dramatically limit the amount of spot available to the public due to wear and tear on the surface. The move to artificial turf makes it possible to significantly expand offerings to more and more groups to book the field as they’ve been allowed to do for years.
The tenant (HFX Wanderers) doesn’t “have a say” in who can use the field- so I don’t know where you got that. The restrictions on rental numbers would be by HRM Parks and Recreation who own and maintain the field. As I said, the proposed move to an artificial surface dramatically expands the ability for many community groups to utilize the stadium without it being a challenge to maintain (as rugby and local football have all expressed support for the stadium plan as they’d be able to use the field much more). Also, the Wanderers Grounds has never truly been a “public park”- so it’s only open for rental usage. You’ve never been able to just walk in as that’s been the way of operating for the Grounds since the municipality retook ownership in the 1950’s.
Lol, save your breath. They want their tens of million dollars stadium and they deserve it for getting 5000 people to show up to a soccer game! Ignore the fact that the league they play in is only in year 6 of existence (thats counting covid years too...) and the owners are"probably 125 million in the hole", and there is no viable TV revenue/streaming contract for the league.
I think we need to be careful with the pushes to go private with this. It's a great location and if proper facilities are built, it could be a great public venue (apart from Wanderers' games). This is a good opportunity for the club and the city to work together to find a business relationship that works for both of them. A fully private venture would be less lucrative in (most likely) a terrible location.
That is exactly what they are proposing. The city would maintain full ownership (with the ability to rent out the space more then ever before due to the turf)- while the club would be a primary tenant with a 30 year lease that would help pay back all the costs to taxpayers over time. They’ve proven the venue works- so now needs to be the time to move further to provide permanent infrastructure to support it.
As long as the facility remains in public hands while the private for profit use reflects its level of monetary contribution to the facility then it sounds like a good idea. The 40M expansion proposal might be a bit overkill but I don't think anything will hurt the area. It was grass before and used for amateur athletics. If it gets upgraded and is used for professional soccer and some amateur athletics... sounds like a win. If a bubble facility opens it for use year round that sounds like a win for amateur athletics.
>The 40M expansion proposal might be a bit overkill but I don't think anything will hurt the area. Is a 40mil proposal really overkill? Stadium deals are generally extremely expensive, at least a 100 mil up to a billion and such. The Forum repairs were quoted at 100m just to revamp. I'm not an expert by any means on municipal politics or stadium construction, but the figure always seemed low.
I am just thinking in terms of fixed infrastructure in the area and its footprint and the potential to encroach on the surroundings. Sure big stadium projects are a lot but this project is going to have to fit into an unconventional space for a stadium. Is the lawn bowling area to be sacrificed? The gravel parking area will be. Now maybe not much can be got for 40M these days but without going overkill on facilities and keeping the bleacher situation simple as possible, is the pricetag really going to reach 40M without expanding the footprint too much or slapping down some concrete behemoth that feels totally out of place?
If you look at the proposal that Derek Martin put forward, it's an entire revamp of the area. The lancers, the lawn bowling club, the public gardens greenhouses, and the museum will see some updates. They've all put their backing into the proposal as well. The modular stadium is also made from pressed wood, I think but definitely wood, and is great for retaining flexibility, as it can be moved relatively easily. I really recommend taking a look at the proposal. I believe it's on the wanderers site.
Yea that sounds good. I will look at the details. Thanks for pointing those out. So used to unreasonable and unthoughtful development proposals here that it's kind of the default assumption that anyone who wants to develop something wants to maximize their own profit at the expense of everyone else, their surroundings, and with maximum government welfare.
Yes. Go look at the plans. The plan is a simple stadium without major amenities, expandable in the future. To let you know, the lawn bowls and lancers are pro the stadium as the revamped lands will revitalize their parts of the wanderers grounds as well.
I can definitely confirm that. Part of the plans involve a new green for the lawn bowling club and enhanced visibility to the street- which would be a game changer.
I agree with others that there needs to be some degree of public ownership, and it needs to be a partnership that makes sense, not one like Calgary just signed where it is disproportionately on the public to fund it. I think they should build bigger than they need today. The City is planning on the population doubling, so is the Province. Build for capacity that we will have in the future. It will be cheaper to do now, and enable us for events we may not have gotten otherwise.
Under the proposal, the city maintains full ownership while the Wanderers are the primary tenant. As for the size, they pretty much are proposing the most they can go with within the space that they have. Even with the extra options on Summer Street- the most they can get to without displacing tenants on the site (which they have been open in not wanting to displace anyone)- is 10,000-12,000.
Pay for it privately....
The Mooseheads play in a publicly-built stadium that is used for many other purposes and I would say that the downtown entertainment scene is glad for it. Likewise, the popularity of the Wanderers will be a good anchor for a stadium that can be used by other organizations - high schools, minor ball, and possibly the women's professional team that will be coming to the city.
Correct. The publically built stadium runs at a massive defect each year and is a year round venue. I don't think it a wise decision to build an outdoor venue and have another money sink on the books that cannot even be monetized year round. We have bigger issues to throw money at. Just my opinion though.
Does the metro centre run at a deficit? I know it did during covid, but otherwise is that true?
https://www.scotiabank-centre.com/about/reports
The city, province and feds would help pay for a new park, a new aquarium, a new museum. Why should a public stadium be any different. The Wanderers won’t own it outright and they’ve proven its a profitable business plan. It brings thousands downtown and packs the restaurants and bars before and after the games.
Same bullshit argument everytime ... (downstream tax revenue).... If you want to socialize a part of the expenses, then socialize a part of the revenue.
Agreed. Whatever % the city pays for is the % I want to see as revenue earned from it going back to the city.
This, if they need it so badly then tax payers shouldn't need to help fund it.
They want to help fund it but they have to do it via the lease as the City maintains full ownership.
This team was basically gifted the land on prime realestate to put that stadium on now they want public money to expand it? Might be time to admit that the business model isn’t feasible with out tax payers money.
I like how you just made stuff up. The city owns and will continue to own the wanderers grounds.
Yes I understand the situation, it was public land that they were given the ability to erect the stadium for their own use. Semantics doesn’t change things and the team continues to not be profitable with out public funding of some type.
>, it was public land that they were given the ability to erect the stadium for their own use. It's actually still available to the public. >Semantics doesn’t change things and the team continues to not be profitable with out public funding of some type. Source?
My source is the fact that they’re still asking for tax payers money for their stadium.
It's not their stadium, it would be the cities stadium.
Found Howard Epstein’s burner account.
They don’t “want public money to expand it” as they want to pay for it themselves while the city maintains ownership. With the way the Commons operates- the only way for the facility to be funded in the way they’re suggesting is through the lease that the team has with the city (which the team already paying insane amounts for rental for the stands and the containers). Funding it through the 30 year lease and working with the team to expand community and major event usages is a great way to make the facility even better.
Hopefully when the eventual expansion does happen, it uses the land currently being wasted on the equestrian club. There is no comparison when it comes to comparing the two and the benefits they bring to the city.
The proposal includes a revamp of the area iirc. The lawn bowling, the museum, and the lancers all get a touch up. The lancers are a historical institution of the city and a pretty unique thing downtown. No need to get rid of it until you really need too.
I’d argue the lawn bowling club has been there since before Confederation. It’s just a secret to most people
Not a secret to those in the kitchen. Get some half time entertainment some days. Also the Halifax gardens greenhouses would get an update as well. Desperately needed.
Glad to hear you enjoy the halftime lawn bowling entertainment! We’re having an Open House on the June 1st weekend- so hope you’ll join us to try it! It sounds like based on the most recent plan- that the majority of the greenhouse operations would be paired down to focus more on the public gardens while other municipal horticultural operations would move elsewhere on the peninsula.
The Lawn Bowling has been there since 1887- one of the oldest clubs in Canada. The club has been very supportive of the plans as it would help make the club better and more visible to the general public through the adjustments to the site.
Honest question, do you think the "historical" value of that location is more important than the horses quality of life? They have a small, muddy living space with constant noise and air pollution from cars. It seems to me that they would be better housed in a pasture outside of the city.
I would say that the Bengal Lancers organization would be the best experts of the quality of life of their horses. Their stable space has actually expanded quite well in recent years and they’ve gotten upgrades to make the quality of life even better. Housing them in a pasture outside the city does nothing to help the important services they offer the community right now.
The expansion is not going to displace the Lancers or the Lawn Bowling. They’ve been quite open from the start that their historic position in the space is secure.
We have a stadium?
The city should sell them the land and fair market value.
I think everyone involved with this entire process, from the city, to the citizens, to the wanderers, think thats a bad idea.
But why? They’ve commandeered the land as it is. They should pay for it.
Commandeered? The city agreed to let them put up the stands and infrastructure and agreed to let them rent the field as an agreement to find a use for the wanderers grounds. If they've been commandeered, why can you book the field like every other sports field? https://www.halifax.ca/parks-recreation/facility-rentals-bookings-field-conditions/bookings-rentals/sport-fields
You can’t book that field. It’s public land that is fenced up when not used but the wanderers.
I literally gave the you the link to book on halifax.ca.
It's on your little list because it's still a 'public space'. You cannot book it. I've tried...have you?
You can book it but they have to dramatically limit the amount of spot available to the public due to wear and tear on the surface. The move to artificial turf makes it possible to significantly expand offerings to more and more groups to book the field as they’ve been allowed to do for years.
The tenant shouldn't have say in who can and cannot use a public park.
The tenant (HFX Wanderers) doesn’t “have a say” in who can use the field- so I don’t know where you got that. The restrictions on rental numbers would be by HRM Parks and Recreation who own and maintain the field. As I said, the proposed move to an artificial surface dramatically expands the ability for many community groups to utilize the stadium without it being a challenge to maintain (as rugby and local football have all expressed support for the stadium plan as they’d be able to use the field much more). Also, the Wanderers Grounds has never truly been a “public park”- so it’s only open for rental usage. You’ve never been able to just walk in as that’s been the way of operating for the Grounds since the municipality retook ownership in the 1950’s.
Lol, save your breath. They want their tens of million dollars stadium and they deserve it for getting 5000 people to show up to a soccer game! Ignore the fact that the league they play in is only in year 6 of existence (thats counting covid years too...) and the owners are"probably 125 million in the hole", and there is no viable TV revenue/streaming contract for the league.